I'm sorry that I ever got into this argument. There are several legitimate interpretations of what the term profondo means. Mardones was a profondo in the sense that he sang the big low 'toga' roles in opera. This is as opposed to the buffo roles that are much higher. In the eighteenth century remember there were few or no baritone parts. For example in Barber and Cenerentola all the male non-tenor roles were sung by three 'basses'. But Bartolo is too high for most standard basses today . Basilio is considered the bass role but only because they transpose La Calunia down to C. And Figaro is filled with many optional high notes. Basilio is sometimes considered a profondo part but certainly not as written.The term bass covered a lot of ground back then. In standard opera performance most basses sing basically from F to F as in Filippo's run at the end of his duet with the Inquisitor. But many standard basses - standard in the sense that they sing the standard popular opera repertoire don't sing Osmin or some of the Monteverdi roles. They leave these for Kurt Moll who is then termed a profondo. But there are other bass songs that are lower yet. There are the Russian Ocktavists. These are also called profondos by some but they are really much lower . Several novelty bass singers like Thurl Ravenscroft are also lower than profondo. And finally there are the bass members of country and western or gospel groups. These however sing with mics and exploit the microphone 'proximity effect'. That's not quite the same. as singing without a mic on an open stage.
@Agorante A profondo is not categorized because they have no high notes. It is range, including low notes, and weight of voice. Mardones had the low notes, but he also had the high notes. And heaviness.
Yes I have heard it, and as you wrote, the end is thrilling. I have not heard any other recording by him, and if something else exist, it seems to be difficult to find. His voice was very dark and nice and he sang it well. The only thing I did't really care for, was his rather fast vibrato but that was possibly due to the style of that time.
Thank you 100 times for your posts of this incredible singer all of whose recordings I own. If possible could you kindly post his performance of "O tu Palermo" with its magnificent top note? Regards - John R.
Да были певцы как будто с другой планеты можно только представить красоту и мощь вокального исскуства голоса широкого диапазона и вокальной техники .Мне БОГ дал голос с большим рабочим диапазоном от ля контр октавы до соль первой.Андрей Богун.
@Agorante How on earth am I "wrong". Mardones sings low Eb's in this recording. PERIOD. And that is what I said. Sorry...you are talking about something other than what I am talking about.
Mardones wasn't what we normally call a profondo. Most opera basses need a good top for the big scenes. They need good top Es and Fs. Real profondos often can't project much above Middle C. You don't see them on opera stages. They get work in gospel quartets or Russian liturgical music. BTW I often sang the second version of some strophic songs in English because I couldn't remember the words.
Those are octavist basses or contra-basses. In America they call them "Brofohnjoo" or "brofoonjo" or something like that (some silly way to mispronounce "profondo") but that's NOT what we originally used to mean by "basso profondo" in Europe. A basso profondo is an opera bass with an extremely thick and powerful voice who can easily sing on Opera stage from High F to counter-low C. Anyway I'm told Mardones could vocalise as low as a G one octave below low G so he could probably have tried to sing as a basso profondo in certain orthodox choirs too or even as a "Brofohnjoo" in gospel but those singers usually learn a completely different technique than the one used in Opera.
@@edraith really G below low G ?? I mean I love him, I think he was one of the greatest if not the greatest but that would have meant he had more than 3 octaves of chest voice range ( given how easy his high G was, he probably could go to Ab/A or even higher ) which is absolutely unheard of, I mean that's a lot !
Well, if Ponselle said that this guy was a real basso profondo, what would he say when he heard Glib Chandrowsky? He sounds a lot more like an organ than this guy.
@meltzerboy "Capiton" is definitely not a Polish name. It however sounds similar to the word "kapitan", which stands for nothing else than "captain". Could it be that basso's nickame?
@MrCafiero My apologies. Mardones does indeed transpose this little song down from F major to Eb major. I hadn't noticed. I just tried it transposed. It is indeed easier to sing in the lower key. Mardones was a typical operatic bass not a profondo. The really low voices sing in choirs not solo. I once sang a Negro spirtual that went down to a written Bb below low C. That was too low for me. My bottom note solo an stage was a C. Below that is profondo territory. Trust me.
Of course Mardones was a great singer. He sings this piece very admirably. In addition, his German is quite good. He could certainly have sung the nearly-uncastable role of King Henry in "Lohengrin" in the original German as well as in Italian. (A King Henry must be able to range from oktavist to baritone. The ideal Henry is a very low bass with an absolutely incredible upper range like Mardones was, also De Angelis, List, and Kipnis. Almost as good is a large, dark mainstream low bass with loads of real estate both ways, like Scaria, Manowarda, Pinza, Siepi, and Crass. Attempts to cast the part with tweeners or dropped baritones do not work, for then the timbre is too light and the bottom end is sacrificed.)
@MrCafiero Weren't you also blogging under the name MonsterBaritone (or some such)? You may remember me as Mr. Wonderful. Hi there! Profondo denotatively means serious. Connotavely it implies range. Extra low notes means compromised high notes. I'm guessing you don't have any real profondo students. Anyway Mardones doesn't exhibit particularly good low notes. His top is excellent. Henri Medus was a profondo. Entirely different kind of voice.
@MrCafiero I have the sheet music. I have recorded it and posted it on RUclips. I have also posted the score itself because so many singers don't quite sing it as written. Generally most basses sing an extra low F (ruining the melodic line) and they also skip the little run. I sing it as written. Of course anyone can add a low extension to an Eb or a C or whatever. The point is that the High Fs are the challenge not the low ones. Sorry old buddy, you are just wrong.
This is not a real profondo showpiece. It's too high. A standard theater (ópera - oratorio) bass sings material from F to F. This is an F to F piece. Osmin, Le Cor and Seneca go down to a D. Russian liturgical music goes lower yet. Thurl Ravenscroft (Tony the Tiger) went below Low C. Gospel singers also go lower. Mardones was powerful standard operatic bass rather like Jerome Hines. I have posted myself on RUclips singing this. I'm not a profondo.
What a great voice!!
I'm sorry that I ever got into this argument. There are several legitimate interpretations of what the term profondo means. Mardones was a profondo in the sense that he sang the big low 'toga' roles in opera. This is as opposed to the buffo roles that are much higher. In the eighteenth century remember there were few or no baritone parts. For example in Barber and Cenerentola all the male non-tenor roles were sung by three 'basses'. But Bartolo is too high for most standard basses today . Basilio is considered the bass role but only because they transpose La Calunia down to C. And Figaro is filled with many optional high notes. Basilio is sometimes considered a profondo part but certainly not as written.The term bass covered a lot of ground back then.
In standard opera performance most basses sing basically from F to F as in Filippo's run at the end of his duet with the Inquisitor. But many standard basses - standard in the sense that they sing the standard popular opera repertoire don't sing Osmin or some of the Monteverdi roles. They leave these for Kurt Moll who is then termed a profondo.
But there are other bass songs that are lower yet. There are the Russian Ocktavists. These are also called profondos by some but they are really much lower . Several novelty bass singers like Thurl Ravenscroft are also lower than profondo. And finally there are the bass members of country and western or gospel groups. These however sing with mics and exploit the microphone 'proximity effect'. That's not quite the same. as singing without a mic on an open stage.
@Agorante A profondo is not categorized because they have no high notes. It is range, including low notes, and weight of voice. Mardones had the low notes, but he also had the high notes. And heaviness.
I agree with you.
IMPRESIONANTE !!!!!!!! PERFECTO * * * * * !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Woww great voice and sing, thank you for sharing. 👏🤝🌺
Yes I have heard it, and as you wrote, the end is thrilling. I have not heard any other recording by him, and if something else exist, it seems to be difficult to find. His voice was very dark and nice and he sang it well. The only thing I did't really care for, was his rather fast vibrato but that was possibly due to the style of that time.
Thank you 100 times for your posts of this incredible singer all of whose recordings I own. If possible could you kindly post his performance of "O tu Palermo" with its magnificent top note?
Regards - John R.
Thanks for the info.
At the end of Verdi's Il lacerato spirito he adds a top F sharp!!!
Да были певцы как будто с другой планеты можно только представить красоту и мощь вокального исскуства голоса широкого диапазона и вокальной техники .Мне БОГ дал голос с большим рабочим диапазоном от ля контр октавы до соль первой.Андрей Богун.
@Agorante This piece goes to a low Eb, not an F. And I was not discussing the range of this song, but rather Mardones' range.
That's true.
@Agorante Who is "we"? A profondo refers to low notes, not just a lack of top notes. It also refers to size.
@Agorante How on earth am I "wrong". Mardones sings low Eb's in this recording. PERIOD. And that is what I said. Sorry...you are talking about something other than what I am talking about.
Mardones wasn't what we normally call a profondo. Most opera basses need a good top for the big scenes. They need good top Es and Fs. Real profondos often can't project much above Middle C. You don't see them on opera stages. They get work in gospel quartets or Russian liturgical music.
BTW I often sang the second version of some strophic songs in English because I couldn't remember the words.
Those are octavist basses or contra-basses.
In America they call them "Brofohnjoo" or "brofoonjo" or something like that (some silly way to mispronounce "profondo") but that's NOT what we originally used to mean by "basso profondo" in Europe.
A basso profondo is an opera bass with an extremely thick and powerful voice who can easily sing on Opera stage from High F to counter-low C.
Anyway I'm told Mardones could vocalise as low as a G one octave below low G so he could probably have tried to sing as a basso profondo in certain orthodox choirs too or even as a "Brofohnjoo" in gospel but those singers usually learn a completely different technique than the one used in Opera.
@@edraith really G below low G ?? I mean I love him, I think he was one of the greatest if not the greatest but that would have meant he had more than 3 octaves of chest voice range ( given how easy his high G was, he probably could go to Ab/A or even higher ) which is absolutely unheard of, I mean that's a lot !
@@abcdefgh-db1to Some Oktavists like Zlatopolsky, Yuri Wichniakov and Eric Holloway have ranges of over three oktaves chest voice.
There are exceptions. Listen to Mikhail Zlatopolsky's high notes.
But you never heard him live.
Well, if Ponselle said that this guy was a real basso profondo, what would he say when he heard Glib Chandrowsky? He sounds a lot more like an organ than this guy.
@meltzerboy
"Capiton" is definitely not a Polish name. It however sounds similar to the word "kapitan", which stands for nothing else than "captain". Could it be that basso's nickame?
@meltzerboy
Ouch, sorry. I didn't realise that the topic had went on after your post and everything had been revealed.
1:25 Bb2
Eb2
@@AIdem-ig9fq no, bb2
@@AIdem-ig9fq oh, i was talking about the Bb2 at 1:26 not the Eb2 at 1:32
@MrCafiero My apologies. Mardones does indeed transpose this little song down from F major to Eb major. I hadn't noticed. I just tried it transposed. It is indeed easier to sing in the lower key. Mardones was a typical operatic bass not a profondo. The really low voices sing in choirs not solo. I once sang a Negro spirtual that went down to a written Bb below low C. That was too low for me. My bottom note solo an stage was a C. Below that is profondo territory. Trust me.
Of course Mardones was a great singer. He sings this piece very admirably. In addition, his German is quite good. He could certainly have sung the nearly-uncastable role of King Henry in "Lohengrin" in the original German as well as in Italian. (A King Henry must be able to range from oktavist to baritone. The ideal Henry is a very low bass with an absolutely incredible upper range like Mardones was, also De Angelis, List, and Kipnis. Almost as good is a large, dark mainstream low bass with loads of real estate both ways, like Scaria, Manowarda, Pinza, Siepi, and Crass. Attempts to cast the part with tweeners or dropped baritones do not work, for then the timbre is too light and the bottom end is sacrificed.)
@MrCafiero Weren't you also blogging under the name MonsterBaritone (or some such)? You may remember me as Mr. Wonderful. Hi there!
Profondo denotatively means serious. Connotavely it implies range. Extra low notes means compromised high notes. I'm guessing you don't have any real profondo students. Anyway Mardones doesn't exhibit particularly good low notes. His top is excellent. Henri Medus was a profondo. Entirely different kind of voice.
I guess you are talking about Capiton Zaporojetz (not sure about how to spell his last name), but I think he was Ukranian.
Um. uh...but PONSELLE did!
@rlohmann1 ROFL! And?
@MrCafiero I have the sheet music. I have recorded it and posted it on RUclips. I have also posted the score itself because so many singers don't quite sing it as written. Generally most basses sing an extra low F (ruining the melodic line) and they also skip the little run. I sing it as written. Of course anyone can add a low extension to an Eb or a C or whatever. The point is that the High Fs are the challenge not the low ones. Sorry old buddy, you are just wrong.
He's a quarter-note flat on the last syllable of "verletzt."
Um, neither did you?
This is not a real profondo showpiece. It's too high. A standard theater (ópera - oratorio) bass sings material from F to F. This is an F to F piece. Osmin, Le Cor and Seneca go down to a D. Russian liturgical music goes lower yet. Thurl Ravenscroft (Tony the Tiger) went below Low C. Gospel singers also go lower. Mardones was powerful standard operatic bass rather like Jerome Hines. I have posted myself on RUclips singing this. I'm not a profondo.