I pay attention to retention metrics. When I see a drop in retention, I stop doing that thing. There is no point in doing this if people don't watch the videos lol 😅.
I agree. I like videos that are short and to the point. Videos that only add length if the the content is worth the added length. 7 min 37 sec was perfect for this video. You needed all of that time to explain the set up for the pay off of the lesson we can take away from it! Please keep it up!
I think a lot of people write their videos like high school essays, trying to reach the word requirement. If you don't have more to say, just make it a five minute video.
while i understand the gamified need to have a populated and interesting dungeon ecology, it's always rankled my brain to imagine, for example, an ice wight staying neatly in his little room, while just 15 feet away are some goblins arguing in their little room, while stirges are around the corner. as an amateur ecologist, i like to imagine the food sources and productive activity of dungeon dwellers, their ecological niches and roles, the psychological needs of monsters, social and political structures, et cetera. it just doesn't make sense even for a fantasy setting to imagine ghouls, who are supposedly hungry, to have the patience to play dead for god knows how long in one room, where as if by magic no other monster encounters them first. i recently ran The Hole in the Oak by Gavin Norman, and it was fun enough, but for 60 rooms there are *many* factions. several of my players laughed at how ridiculously overpopulated this dungeon was. around every corner, a new gang of baddies. as a counterpoint, it may seem weird to have one monster in a dungeon, but there's something eerie about wandering thru a large dungeon that's mostly empty of life and exploring how to creatively design many dungeon obstacles that aren't combat encounters.
I was reading a really cool reddit story about a dungeon that played with this concept. It was like a giant library, and I think there were various enemies. However, a lot of the dungeon was just puzzling and navigation. But to keep tension up, there was a creature called the librarian that roamed the halls. If it caught you, it would result in instant death. So they took a dungeon that was largely puzzles and worldbuilding, but made the whole thing tense by making it one huge game of cat and mouse. Also, kind of unrelated, but that could be how you separate monsters. Put traps and puzzles that are simple enough for humans to get through, but too complex for the particular monster. Then particularly astute players can wonder why it seems like these locks are keeping something in rather than something out.
Thats where "reskining" as i like to call it comes into play. You have lets say a dungoen and its populated by gnolls, with maybe an old wizard mastermind boss or w/e. Now if you want diversity just replace exotic enemys with mutated, misbread, magical versions of gnoll variants. If you reach limits you can add another orc faction with the same concept.
One way you could simulate npc movement is by choosing a starting spot for them (or not) and giving each group/encounter a different probability of showing up in a room when your players enter it.
Fascinating. I used to make deathmatch maps for Doom and Doom 2, my map were used as the official maps in a couple East Coast tournaments, and although I was unaware that this design philosophy had a name, it is essentially how I designed all my deathmatch levels. At the time, I boiled it down to one core concept: There should not be any spot, anywhere on the map, where you can see all possible approaches to that location within a single field-of-view. As a result, all rooms always have at least 2 entrances, and the entrances are always positioned such that you can only face one at a time (i.e., at least one entrance is always beside or behind you). This, in turn, produced looping maps where you felt like you needed to keep moving -- standing still was never safe. It's basically the same as what you described, and players really seemed to enjoy it.
I usually don't comment on videos, but this video deserves praise. This put together in minutes what I couldn't articulate in years! I love this concept so much and think that it will help me in my upcoming campaign. You have a criminally low subscriber count.
I’ve spent hours on dungeon design videos that are like 30-1hr long with not much that I felt was really applicable to me. You’ve sparked a lot of thought and ideas with this short to the point video and your use of comparing to video games clicked so well to me as a FPS Gamer turned DM. +1 Subscriber
I was thinking the exact same thing. That or the old school Zelda dungeons. Especially how in each of these games you'll often find a ladder you can knock down to open up a shortcut as a checkpoint. It really is a beautiful way of doing a checkpoint but actually physically changing the game world in response.
Video games are a goldmine for ideas for tabletop games! Never thought about the possible consequences for dungeon design though, thanks for sharing your ideas!
Player 1, "I peek, carefully around the corner." DM, "You fall to the floor, at zero HP. Somewhere down the far end of the corridor, you hear an excited Goblin squeal, "'ead shot!"" Player 2, "Oh great, Aim-bot Goblins. I cast "No Clip" and duck through the wall."
I've been doing this since I started making battlemaps! I think it's helped since I was running Cyberpunk Red and would draw up inspiration from CoD, Mass Effect, and Wasteland 3 and then naturally that inked into my d&d maps. Great video, can definitely see this channel blowing up
Great video. I was familiar with the concept before, as I read Justin's blog, but analyzing it in the context of dust map made it click for me. Finally to the point of utilizing it in my dungeon maps.
Years ago before I had heard about the Dunning Kruger Effect, it was something that I always kind of had in the back of my head, but once I heard the full definition I realize it not only existed but it could be spotted all over the place. This feels similar, it's something you might instinctively know because it's sometime your favorite video game/TTRPG maps have in common, but knowing _why_ it works is interesting. Its not just the looping nature, but pathing and the distinct themes per path that all work so well together. Nice video!
I watched three of your videos in a row and this is already becoming one of my favorite places for DM advice. Why, you ask? Less than 15 minutes per video: check. System neutral ideas: yup. Concise, easy to understand, actionable advice: yessir. Speaking from experience: obviously. Good quality audio and video, with engaging delivery: 100%. Good freakin job, man.
just recently found your channel, ive been trying to learn how to DM and world build for the last couple years, and youve been one of the best, most to the point help ive found, so thank you!
Great video :D. Im always looking at unreal / quake / counterstrike / ... for cool battle map ideas. Just like in a shooter you need to provide your party flanking options, long and short range situations, interesting level geometry, verticality, ... A long hallway without much cover favors ranged fights. A bridge spanning a lover level enables enemies to throw rocks on to the players. While they can use the bridge for cover against ranged attacks from below the monsters are out of luck if a druid flies up to them or a mage sets the bridge on fire. Maybe there is a large chasm with a water fall in the middle. The water drags down any arrows fired to the other side but Spells which only require sight of the enemy can shine here. A cramped windy maze gives melees the opportunity to corner a wizard and clobber him while blocking line of sight for the enemies cleric. A quick jump down from a smaller cliff makes for a good escape route but there is no way back. While the enemies shoot you with ranged attacks you flee wondering why they don't follow you.
Looping paths are also more realistic when you consider how actual living spaces tend to be made, and they also give the players the feeling that their choices matter.
I've been watching a bunch of your videos. You're super direct and the content is really useful. You've inspired me to return to the campaign design I'd been doing that had been languishing. Thanks so much. :)
Found this video as a random recommendation, thought it sounded interesting, and it ended up being way more compelling than I expected. Absolutely loved it. Instant subscription from me.
I recently discovered your channel & immediately subbed & rang the bell. Your insight provides a fresh take on classic tropes that I greatly appreciate & enjoy. Thank you for the hard work & top shelf content you provide.
I don't generally comment, but I have to give you props! You've provided an informative and interesting video that is densely packed, thought provoking, and concise! Looking forward to future posts 👍
The loops-within-loops idea is fantastic--reminds me of a common refrain among people analyzing Dark Souls level design. I also noticed the fractal design of Dust2, but in a different way: there's a pattern of self-contained areas, with line of sight blocked at each entrance. For example, the "A Doors" from the yellow team spawn into the A path in Dust2 consist of two sets of double-doors and a small room between them. The doors are slightly open, allowing players to pass through single-file, but they block line of sight through that room--meaning that the blue team can potentially ambush the yellow team, if they can get to the far end of the A path in time. Likewise, the entire A path itself is self-contained for LOS purposes--you can't actually see from blue spawn to A Doors, you have to round a corner first. The catwalk in the middle path, leading from the middle path to objective A, is also a self-contained vision area in a way; you can see from the top of catwalk to objective A, but you can't see from the *bottom* of catwalk to objective A. The map is filled with these capsules of self-contained vision, connected at key chokepoints.
The Alexandrian has tons of in depth advice on this topic - he renamed it to Xandering the dungeon after Jaquays didn't want her name associated with it. Would deffo recommend
@@bonbondurjdr6553 I think he might of used a photo editor to add the text later. I've never added text to a map because I use dungeon scrawl for geometry for battle maps.
For some more tips on map design I recomend the Deus Ex original game. Most important places have more than one entrance and usually they tend to work with more than one game style. Witch is really usefull to know when DMing XD
Not sure anyone has pointed this out, but the design of dust2 is also very much down to the designer not having a set idea of how he wanted the map laid out, in terms of where A, B and the spawns would be, so it's set up to have allowed for those parts to be shifted around and still produce a playable map. It can definitely teach something about modularity, and in constructing dungeons (and stories) that are fluid and connected, rather than just being rooms to get the PCs from the entrance to the boss.
As a shooter player who found this video by accident, I have a few things to point out. 1) The yellow team, as you called it (actually called Terrorists in game, or T), actually has to reach only one of the objectives, of their choice. This makes the mid area that much more important - if they encounter more resistance then they hoped for, Ts can "rotate" as we call it to the path through the middle, which itself may or may not be already held by the opposing team to prevent that. 2) Dust 2 was originally designed without the spawn points and objectives. Form what I heard, Johnston designed the layout first, in such a way that the objectives and spawn points could be placed anywhere and still work (both objectives still have to be on either side of blue spawn, and yellow should then be on the opposite side of the map). Honestly, I don't know what to make of this, and how would knowing that affect the analysis of the level, but would be interesting to hear people's thoughts around here. Especially as an aspiring level designer who learned a lot from this video. It's like something finally "clicked" in my head about level design that I did not understand before. Really appreciate the video.
My biggest challenge is understanding which rooms are needed in a building. an abandoned dungeon was a mine or a city before. or for example in a castle, what are the rooms that should exist
While System Shock 1 might be overwhelming, System Shock 2 is an excellent dungeon crawler and it has some great map. the levels and the maps makes a lot of sense with their functions on the space ship great video, i binged your content. You really give incredible advice and i have watched a lot of videos but i feel that you extract the underlying rules of the thematic your speaking of. It helped me a lot, thank you
I design my maps using Thief II as inspiration. I don't like the "rooms conected by hallways" design. I want my structures and artificial dungeons (i.e. not natural caverns) to feel like places people actually use and make sense. The Bank Heist mission from Thief II: The Metal Age is the standard by which I judge maps against.
An excellent analysis. I recommend Thief 2 The Metal Age for my nomination of exceptional level design, any level in that game is near perfect. Uses a lot of the same principles mentioned in your video. A clear set of design principles lead to good level design in my opinion.
@@DungeonMasterpiece I'd like to see that. It is a true masterpiece of game and sound design. Here is a guide for setting it up for the best experience, let me know if you need any help setting it up: Thief 2 Recommended Set-Up Guide Installation: -Install Thief 2 via Steam or GoG -Install the T2Fix Community Patch: www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149669 -Install the Thief 2 HD Texture Mod: www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144303 -Install the Thief 2 Sound Effects Enhancement Mod: www.moddb.com/games/thief-ii-the-metal-age/addons/thief-2-sound-effects-enhancement-pack Mod Set-Up: -Thief 2 HD mod settings: How to change LOD settings for details and foliage (recommended): To do that go to HDMOD folder and open up the file called 'gamesys.dml' with Notepad and search for 'Grass LOD Distance': These two values are important: "LOD 0->1 Dist" 30.00 "LOD 1->2 Dist" 45.00 The value for 'LOD 0->1 Dist' should always be lower than for 'LOD 1->2 Dist'. You can try this for example: "LOD 0->1 Dist" 85.00 "LOD 1->2 Dist" 95.00 -Do not use any new vegetation in the HD mod, stick to original vegetation to avoid LOD issues (can be set up but takes a while so best avoid). -In the mod config tool use water mod preset 3 -Manually delete the subtitles files from the game install folder to remove them. (Make sure you read the readme files for the mods and then ask me for assistance if needed) Information on how to remove the Health Icons on the HUD if preferred (optional): www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145263 Game Settings: -Lower gamma until very dark in shadows -Turn off bow zoom -Turn off auto equip -Turn off auto search bodies -Set preferred keybinds for lean forward and zoom (Carful not to conflict with other keys) -Set keybind for creep as 'Ctrl' -Check other keybinds and set as preferred -Turn Fog Off in Video Settings for some levels such as 'Life of the Party' as it makes the sky bug out and looks like daytime (important) -In audio options use Open GL and have EAX on -In audio options select as many audio channels as possible -The game has no music so leave audio levels as default
Thief series is such an imersive games, giving you simple yet effective interactive tools, great sound effects and much more, just some very cool games!
How much information should you give to the party for one of these style dungeons to allow them to make meaningful choices? Is it better to present them with the entire map of the dungeon and let them plan out their entire approach? Or should you only present them with the layout room by room, and risk them picking bad paths because they didn't understand what they were getting into? Right now I'm thinking that the best way is to allow them to collect information on the next room (whether by peeking through the doorway or otherwise), and make sure to give them enough important details that they get an idea of what that path will be like. Whether that be the enemy types, the room shapes, etc, it then becomes important to stick to those details throughout the path so that the players don't feel tricked.
I would give them the information exactly as the characters would discover it. If that means they discover it through divination magic, so be it If they discover it through using their eyeball through a key slot, That's fine too.
@@DungeonMasterpiece Interesting. Would you seed some opportunities to get fragments of the dungeon layout in the adventure to reward planning/exploration, like tracking down records of the dungeon's construction, finding maps, or interrogating captured enemies? Could/should you balance this out by making the information flawed? I think it's fascinating to play around with the kind of information players have, but I think it can be risky to tamper too much, or else they become almost afraid of making informed decisions. Smart decisions rely on recognizing signals, but tricking them too much makes them unable to trust the signals they're given.
This channel is awful. Here I am, minding my own damn business and BAM get hit with this video. Oh, great. Thanks! Guess I'll just find 5 people to spend the next 5 months every Friday playing dnd so I can use all this wisdom. Thank, pal. I hope you are proud of yourself.
@@DungeonMasterpiece Haha me neither but I love games based on it like wazhack and pathos. Give them a try on your phone. Nothing replicates hardcore D&D better in my opinion. I think you will like it.
@@DungeonMasterpiece it’s a game that is quite not for everyone, and one of the original roguelikes. In fact, the genre’s been so detached from the game “Rogue”, I’ve started referring to “true roguelikes” as “hacklikes” instead. What’s funny is that Rogue is actually inspired by DnD 1e, particularly Tomb of Horrors. Then “Hack” was made based off of rogue. Then Nethack was basically the final iteration on that classic branch of roguelike. Ironically, I’ve actually been using it as a basis for my current dungeon crawl campaign, with players basically trapped in the dungeon by an entity feeding off of their suffering and despair, denied true death and forced to continue against their will. All while party continues descending into its depths in the promise of escape laying in below, a true wish that lured them there in the first place. I actually made a few excel spreadsheets to further aid in dungeon generation, populating it with random items, features, and monsters (primarily constructs called “silverbloods” that are identical in form to creatures on the bestiary but player-hostile in behavior, and other prisoners, here referred to as “redbloods” to differentiate.) even an “identification list” to randomize item identification after each TPK (to mimic the mechanic in Nethack) I also readjusted short rests to be 10m and long rests to be 1h, with different downtime activities now. It’s a very different experience from normal DnD, with combat and threat near unceasing, player characters sanity dwindling out of despair until they come across an actual NPC or a place they can finally and safely rest, but pressured on by rapid starvation. There is no predicting on anyone’s part of what happens, and instead allow stories to unfold as the players fight their way through the floors, the maze like corridors full of threats at every bend, and yet the fear of character loss now completely gone, instead replaced with having to bring a player’s corpse to the next floor not to revive them, but so the player can retrieve their belongings off of their own dead body. Occasionally they may find those who decided to settle in and make this place their permanent residence. Shopkeepers selling merchandise or services in exchange for “silverblood” as the currency rather than gold, small groups of survivors setting up encampments, or other lost adventurers, driven completely mad and slaying anyone they come across to sate their own craving for suffering, as if the entity has rubbed off on them. Basically, the mood is oppressive, and the world is simultaneously claustrophobic yet hauntingly expansive, occasionally changing scenery to a hex crawl as they stumble upon a fragment of another world, laden with threats across an expanse of somehow still lush territory, only now alive with silverblood monsters instead of normal beasts.
I think this is AWESOME! ........for GMs. Players have a totally different view. They will "miss out" on something depending which way they come in and the finale will weaken any other part they explore. If you aren't running a player driven game (which D&D 99.9% isn't) then this style isn't very effective. Or rather is more interesting to GMs than players.
Agreed. I don't think dungeons need to be looped that heavily as long as there are enough meaningful choices to make. Videogames need loops to save time backtracking but in a TTRPG backtracking takes zero seconds.
I would call Dust2 equally beloved and hated by the CS community. It's a good example of how the philosophy of CS level design was first implemented for competitiveness, but I think Mirage is a better example of how it was refined to near perfection.
When I see a dungeon like the one shown in this video, I find it immersion-breaking. My first thought is to who put in the time, money, and effort to build the place. If I can't make sense of that, then the whole thing comes off as contrived and it ruins the game for me.
Your points on entrances are relevant but don’t pertain to FPS maps since those entrances are static and unchanging. You gave a neat and cropped history on level design that loosely relates to making better dungeons. That said, because you picked FPS maps as a subject you failed to talk about relevance of rooms, flow, uniqueness, and secrets… because those aspects of dungeon creation are irrelevant in FPS games. It’s as if the two things are different for a reason. My summation of this video is: multiple entrances (not related to the FPS maps) and loops or ‘more than one way to the goal’. Why did it take so long to get there? As for the different routes, there’s no way they should all be advantageous or as accessible as the next. That is boring and makes your big-bads seem like they are either mentally deficient or have no agency or self-interest. No fortress owner in existence has ever seen a weak spot and said, “Oh that’ll be fiiiine, no need to fortify there!”
I really love your content and your perspective on playing this game. But goddam. I can never hear you say your name. You gotta relax and say it slow enough that I can hear you.
To be honest… these kind of maps are unrealistic and unnecessary complex. It may have its benefits as a computer game map, that is played several thousand times or in an mmo… But making eveey map like this often overconfuses players, and is unrealistic. You as DM make a lot of effort of potential things players might do, just then to realize players only think about 10% of the options you think you provided them. The re-play-ability is also why an adventure module would go for this kind of maps, as every run of the module the solution could change. Early FPS shooters were also limited by their size and CPU/memory power, that is why the levels had to loop much. Especially with arena shooters (like quake or unreal tournament) you could see not all fps fans like this style of play. Halo has some levels for examples with 2 bases in valley or the high bridge levels that also offer several tactical ways but do not loop. I dont find this video useful to be honest, on the contrary it will just make things worse if you already seek advice. Maybe there is some more good advice in the design/from this designer, but this video does not show.
I really appreciate how you get right to the subject matter without himming and hawing around for 2-4 minutes like almost all channels do.
I pay attention to retention metrics. When I see a drop in retention, I stop doing that thing. There is no point in doing this if people don't watch the videos lol 😅.
I agree. I like videos that are short and to the point. Videos that only add length if the the content is worth the added length. 7 min 37 sec was perfect for this video. You needed all of that time to explain the set up for the pay off of the lesson we can take away from it!
Please keep it up!
this!
I think a lot of people write their videos like high school essays, trying to reach the word requirement. If you don't have more to say, just make it a five minute video.
Exactly.
while i understand the gamified need to have a populated and interesting dungeon ecology, it's always rankled my brain to imagine, for example, an ice wight staying neatly in his little room, while just 15 feet away are some goblins arguing in their little room, while stirges are around the corner. as an amateur ecologist, i like to imagine the food sources and productive activity of dungeon dwellers, their ecological niches and roles, the psychological needs of monsters, social and political structures, et cetera. it just doesn't make sense even for a fantasy setting to imagine ghouls, who are supposedly hungry, to have the patience to play dead for god knows how long in one room, where as if by magic no other monster encounters them first.
i recently ran The Hole in the Oak by Gavin Norman, and it was fun enough, but for 60 rooms there are *many* factions. several of my players laughed at how ridiculously overpopulated this dungeon was. around every corner, a new gang of baddies.
as a counterpoint, it may seem weird to have one monster in a dungeon, but there's something eerie about wandering thru a large dungeon that's mostly empty of life and exploring how to creatively design many dungeon obstacles that aren't combat encounters.
I mean, there are only two factions in this one, and the goblins are clearly trying to figure out a way out.
I totally agree with you.
I was reading a really cool reddit story about a dungeon that played with this concept. It was like a giant library, and I think there were various enemies. However, a lot of the dungeon was just puzzling and navigation. But to keep tension up, there was a creature called the librarian that roamed the halls. If it caught you, it would result in instant death. So they took a dungeon that was largely puzzles and worldbuilding, but made the whole thing tense by making it one huge game of cat and mouse. Also, kind of unrelated, but that could be how you separate monsters. Put traps and puzzles that are simple enough for humans to get through, but too complex for the particular monster. Then particularly astute players can wonder why it seems like these locks are keeping something in rather than something out.
There's a balance to be had. You can Jaquay a dungeon, then retroactively make it logically and narratively satisfying.
Thats where "reskining" as i like to call it comes into play. You have lets say a dungoen and its populated by gnolls, with maybe an old wizard mastermind boss or w/e. Now if you want diversity just replace exotic enemys with mutated, misbread, magical versions of gnoll variants. If you reach limits you can add another orc faction with the same concept.
One way you could simulate npc movement is by choosing a starting spot for them (or not) and giving each group/encounter a different probability of showing up in a room when your players enter it.
Fascinating. I used to make deathmatch maps for Doom and Doom 2, my map were used as the official maps in a couple East Coast tournaments, and although I was unaware that this design philosophy had a name, it is essentially how I designed all my deathmatch levels.
At the time, I boiled it down to one core concept: There should not be any spot, anywhere on the map, where you can see all possible approaches to that location within a single field-of-view. As a result, all rooms always have at least 2 entrances, and the entrances are always positioned such that you can only face one at a time (i.e., at least one entrance is always beside or behind you). This, in turn, produced looping maps where you felt like you needed to keep moving -- standing still was never safe. It's basically the same as what you described, and players really seemed to enjoy it.
I usually don't comment on videos, but this video deserves praise. This put together in minutes what I couldn't articulate in years! I love this concept so much and think that it will help me in my upcoming campaign. You have a criminally low subscriber count.
I’ve spent hours on dungeon design videos that are like 30-1hr long with not much that I felt was really applicable to me. You’ve sparked a lot of thought and ideas with this short to the point video and your use of comparing to video games clicked so well to me as a FPS Gamer turned DM.
+1 Subscriber
Me too. +1 subscriber as of this video.
I agree with everything you said.
Thanks again for the solid, well demonstrated advice. This channel is seriously underrated.
Thanks so much for the kind words! I'll catch up there soon!
I can second that!
This brings to mind games created by From Software. Although, their designs tend to rely on more of locked loops, that open up as you explore.
I was thinking the exact same thing. That or the old school Zelda dungeons. Especially how in each of these games you'll often find a ladder you can knock down to open up a shortcut as a checkpoint. It really is a beautiful way of doing a checkpoint but actually physically changing the game world in response.
Video games are a goldmine for ideas for tabletop games! Never thought about the possible consequences for dungeon design though, thanks for sharing your ideas!
Player 1, "I peek, carefully around the corner."
DM, "You fall to the floor, at zero HP. Somewhere down the far end of the corridor, you hear an excited Goblin squeal, "'ead shot!""
Player 2, "Oh great, Aim-bot Goblins. I cast "No Clip" and duck through the wall."
Holy cow man, this is immediately impactful, actionable, and inspiring. Great execution on conveying these concepts
Love how you've been bringing in lots of video game tropes and concepts to illustrate your D&D advices. I love it.
I've been doing this since I started making battlemaps! I think it's helped since I was running Cyberpunk Red and would draw up inspiration from CoD, Mass Effect, and Wasteland 3 and then naturally that inked into my d&d maps. Great video, can definitely see this channel blowing up
Really helpful thank you. I’d understood the loops - but not that each area should haves thematic difference. That’s really helpful
Great video.
I was familiar with the concept before, as I read Justin's blog, but analyzing it in the context of dust map made it click for me. Finally to the point of utilizing it in my dungeon maps.
Years ago before I had heard about the Dunning Kruger Effect, it was something that I always kind of had in the back of my head, but once I heard the full definition I realize it not only existed but it could be spotted all over the place. This feels similar, it's something you might instinctively know because it's sometime your favorite video game/TTRPG maps have in common, but knowing _why_ it works is interesting. Its not just the looping nature, but pathing and the distinct themes per path that all work so well together. Nice video!
I watched three of your videos in a row and this is already becoming one of my favorite places for DM advice. Why, you ask?
Less than 15 minutes per video: check. System neutral ideas: yup. Concise, easy to understand, actionable advice: yessir. Speaking from experience: obviously. Good quality audio and video, with engaging delivery: 100%.
Good freakin job, man.
Thank you, very much! I just don't want to waste anyone's time!
@@DungeonMasterpiece the ironic part about that is: in doing so, you've gotten me to watch so many of your videos!
@@DocFleg I'm going for "session time" not the watch time on a single video hahah
just recently found your channel, ive been trying to learn how to DM and world build for the last couple years, and youve been one of the best, most to the point help ive found, so thank you!
Glad I could help!
Excellent video! I'm going to be keeping the in mind the next time I design a dungeon
What a truly excellent video. Thorough yet concise and engaging throughout.
This video is super awesome!
Again, an efficient video, tight with quality content from begining to end. A lot of people's favorite type of information videos from what I know.
One of the greatest maps I ever ran was just Badwater Basin from TF2.
Thank you, for actually showing a map with example encounters.
Great video :D.
Im always looking at unreal / quake / counterstrike / ... for cool battle map ideas.
Just like in a shooter you need to provide your party flanking options, long and short range situations, interesting level geometry, verticality, ...
A long hallway without much cover favors ranged fights. A bridge spanning a lover level enables enemies to throw rocks on to the players. While they can use the bridge for cover against ranged attacks from below the monsters are out of luck if a druid flies up to them or a mage sets the bridge on fire.
Maybe there is a large chasm with a water fall in the middle. The water drags down any arrows fired to the other side but Spells which only require sight of the enemy can shine here.
A cramped windy maze gives melees the opportunity to corner a wizard and clobber him while blocking line of sight for the enemies cleric.
A quick jump down from a smaller cliff makes for a good escape route but there is no way back. While the enemies shoot you with ranged attacks you flee wondering why they don't follow you.
Fantastic video! Concise and to-the-point. 7 minutes and none of it wasted, all of it useful. Thank you, sir, you get my subscription!
Looping paths are also more realistic when you consider how actual living spaces tend to be made, and they also give the players the feeling that their choices matter.
I was really curious at first how an FPS could have this effect. Engrossing from start to finish. I LOVED this! 👏
I've been watching a bunch of your videos. You're super direct and the content is really useful. You've inspired me to return to the campaign design I'd been doing that had been languishing. Thanks so much. :)
Found this video as a random recommendation, thought it sounded interesting, and it ended up being way more compelling than I expected. Absolutely loved it. Instant subscription from me.
Solid and absolutely great analysis! Thank you very much, I learned lots!
This will help me a great deal for my tabletop simulator dungeons! Thanks a lot for sharing this!
Cool video! Very interesting!
I recently discovered your channel & immediately subbed & rang the bell. Your insight provides a fresh take on classic tropes that I greatly appreciate & enjoy. Thank you for the hard work & top shelf content you provide.
I don't generally comment, but I have to give you props! You've provided an informative and interesting video that is densely packed, thought provoking, and concise!
Looking forward to future posts 👍
i feel like i have never been so satisfied by watching a youtube video, i clicked a video and got exactly what i wanted/expected
The loops-within-loops idea is fantastic--reminds me of a common refrain among people analyzing Dark Souls level design.
I also noticed the fractal design of Dust2, but in a different way: there's a pattern of self-contained areas, with line of sight blocked at each entrance. For example, the "A Doors" from the yellow team spawn into the A path in Dust2 consist of two sets of double-doors and a small room between them. The doors are slightly open, allowing players to pass through single-file, but they block line of sight through that room--meaning that the blue team can potentially ambush the yellow team, if they can get to the far end of the A path in time.
Likewise, the entire A path itself is self-contained for LOS purposes--you can't actually see from blue spawn to A Doors, you have to round a corner first. The catwalk in the middle path, leading from the middle path to objective A, is also a self-contained vision area in a way; you can see from the top of catwalk to objective A, but you can't see from the *bottom* of catwalk to objective A. The map is filled with these capsules of self-contained vision, connected at key chokepoints.
Your scripts are informative, well written, direct, and concise. I subscribed immediately.
Great content. Love how this sounds like a MasterClass ad
Masterclass ad?
The Alexandrian has tons of in depth advice on this topic - he renamed it to Xandering the dungeon after Jaquays didn't want her name associated with it. Would deffo recommend
Nice Dungeon Scrawl Map.
It's a good tool once you really learn how to use it.
@AKAX HFofHotBoi I don't know how to write in Dungeon Scrawl like he did. Would you happen to know how?
@@bonbondurjdr6553 I think he might of used a photo editor to add the text later. I've never added text to a map because I use dungeon scrawl for geometry for battle maps.
@@Barquevious_Jackson thanks! I also used paint to write on my maps!
For some more tips on map design I recomend the Deus Ex original game. Most important places have more than one entrance and usually they tend to work with more than one game style. Witch is really usefull to know when DMing XD
I would kill to see you DM a group through a map like this. Also. Once again a very good video.
This is brilliant and actually really helpful, thanks!
Well said! For those in a hurry, skip right to the key message @ 2:16
Interesting video, thanks a lot!
Not sure anyone has pointed this out, but the design of dust2 is also very much down to the designer not having a set idea of how he wanted the map laid out, in terms of where A, B and the spawns would be, so it's set up to have allowed for those parts to be shifted around and still produce a playable map. It can definitely teach something about modularity, and in constructing dungeons (and stories) that are fluid and connected, rather than just being rooms to get the PCs from the entrance to the boss.
As a shooter player who found this video by accident, I have a few things to point out.
1) The yellow team, as you called it (actually called Terrorists in game, or T), actually has to reach only one of the objectives, of their choice. This makes the mid area that much more important - if they encounter more resistance then they hoped for, Ts can "rotate" as we call it to the path through the middle, which itself may or may not be already held by the opposing team to prevent that.
2) Dust 2 was originally designed without the spawn points and objectives. Form what I heard, Johnston designed the layout first, in such a way that the objectives and spawn points could be placed anywhere and still work (both objectives still have to be on either side of blue spawn, and yellow should then be on the opposite side of the map). Honestly, I don't know what to make of this, and how would knowing that affect the analysis of the level, but would be interesting to hear people's thoughts around here.
Especially as an aspiring level designer who learned a lot from this video. It's like something finally "clicked" in my head about level design that I did not understand before. Really appreciate the video.
Love what you're doing. More please!
Fantastic video. Great production value, and fascinating material
Glad you think so!
My biggest challenge is understanding which rooms are needed in a building. an abandoned dungeon was a mine or a city before. or for example in a castle, what are the rooms that should exist
This is an amazing methodology for dungeon design. 5 room dungeons hint at this but I think this is far better.
A nice analysis Ryan.
I didn't know people still played counter strike. Nice that it's still relevant!
I would love some adventures and campaign examples that use these principles!
I was so confident this was going to be a meme but instead I got an incredible video
What app did you make that map on? Looks sweet.
Dungeonscrawl.com
Hi, Knarb!
This is really cool. Thanks for sharing.
Terrific advice, thanks!
While System Shock 1 might be overwhelming, System Shock 2 is an excellent dungeon crawler and it has some great map.
the levels and the maps makes a lot of sense with their functions on the space ship
great video, i binged your content. You really give incredible advice and i have watched a lot of videos but i feel that you extract the underlying rules of the thematic your speaking of. It helped me a lot, thank you
I design my maps using Thief II as inspiration.
I don't like the "rooms conected by hallways" design. I want my structures and artificial dungeons (i.e. not natural caverns) to feel like places people actually use and make sense.
The Bank Heist mission from Thief II: The Metal Age is the standard by which I judge maps against.
Imagine a mall as a dungeon; interconnected, with multiple entrances and levels, with various locations and service tunnels
An excellent analysis. I recommend Thief 2 The Metal Age for my nomination of exceptional level design, any level in that game is near perfect. Uses a lot of the same principles mentioned in your video.
A clear set of design principles lead to good level design in my opinion.
I've not played that game! I'll have to do a long play
@@DungeonMasterpiece I'd like to see that. It is a true masterpiece of game and sound design. Here is a guide for setting it up for the best experience, let me know if you need any help setting it up:
Thief 2 Recommended Set-Up Guide
Installation:
-Install Thief 2 via Steam or GoG
-Install the T2Fix Community Patch: www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149669
-Install the Thief 2 HD Texture Mod: www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144303
-Install the Thief 2 Sound Effects Enhancement Mod: www.moddb.com/games/thief-ii-the-metal-age/addons/thief-2-sound-effects-enhancement-pack
Mod Set-Up:
-Thief 2 HD mod settings: How to change LOD settings for details and foliage (recommended):
To do that go to HDMOD folder and open up the file called 'gamesys.dml' with Notepad and search for 'Grass LOD Distance':
These two values are important:
"LOD 0->1 Dist" 30.00
"LOD 1->2 Dist" 45.00
The value for 'LOD 0->1 Dist' should always be lower than for 'LOD 1->2 Dist'.
You can try this for example:
"LOD 0->1 Dist" 85.00
"LOD 1->2 Dist" 95.00
-Do not use any new vegetation in the HD mod, stick to original vegetation to avoid LOD issues (can be set up but takes a while so best avoid).
-In the mod config tool use water mod preset 3
-Manually delete the subtitles files from the game install folder to remove them.
(Make sure you read the readme files for the mods and then ask me for assistance if needed)
Information on how to remove the Health Icons on the HUD if preferred (optional): www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145263
Game Settings:
-Lower gamma until very dark in shadows
-Turn off bow zoom
-Turn off auto equip
-Turn off auto search bodies
-Set preferred keybinds for lean forward and zoom (Carful not to conflict with other keys)
-Set keybind for creep as 'Ctrl'
-Check other keybinds and set as preferred
-Turn Fog Off in Video Settings for some levels such as 'Life of the Party' as it makes the sky bug out and looks like daytime (important)
-In audio options use Open GL and have EAX on
-In audio options select as many audio channels as possible
-The game has no music so leave audio levels as default
Thief series is such an imersive games, giving you simple yet effective interactive tools, great sound effects and much more, just some very cool games!
As both a Player of CSGO and D&D, Dust2 is THE best example of dungeon design.
effin fantastic analysis
Great ideas. Great examples.
Oh my god its my main two personality traits mashed up and made into a video 💜
Which two are those?
Jeez, another top notch vid
this is the nerdiest and most interesting video I've come across.
Dust II - I suppose I've been there more than in any other place.
Dishonoured and Deus Ex are other great examples. At least for more open dynamic environments.
I don't see this that ingenious. I think that these ideas would come naturally to most when designing something like this.
Glad you figured it out on your own!!
I realized Monster Hunter's maps are made with similar principle: loopable paths, branching access, choke points and some verticalities.
How much information should you give to the party for one of these style dungeons to allow them to make meaningful choices? Is it better to present them with the entire map of the dungeon and let them plan out their entire approach? Or should you only present them with the layout room by room, and risk them picking bad paths because they didn't understand what they were getting into?
Right now I'm thinking that the best way is to allow them to collect information on the next room (whether by peeking through the doorway or otherwise), and make sure to give them enough important details that they get an idea of what that path will be like. Whether that be the enemy types, the room shapes, etc, it then becomes important to stick to those details throughout the path so that the players don't feel tricked.
I would give them the information exactly as the characters would discover it. If that means they discover it through divination magic, so be it If they discover it through using their eyeball through a key slot, That's fine too.
@@DungeonMasterpiece Interesting. Would you seed some opportunities to get fragments of the dungeon layout in the adventure to reward planning/exploration, like tracking down records of the dungeon's construction, finding maps, or interrogating captured enemies? Could/should you balance this out by making the information flawed?
I think it's fascinating to play around with the kind of information players have, but I think it can be risky to tamper too much, or else they become almost afraid of making informed decisions. Smart decisions rely on recognizing signals, but tricking them too much makes them unable to trust the signals they're given.
I could definitely see a resemblance to dungeon maps in Wolfenstein, lol.
Great advice.
A sub earned for a job well done!
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it!
awesome advice
This channel is awful. Here I am, minding my own damn business and BAM get hit with this video. Oh, great. Thanks! Guess I'll just find 5 people to spend the next 5 months every Friday playing dnd so I can use all this wisdom. Thank, pal. I hope you are proud of yourself.
For those on the internet, this is a joke. This video was fantastic
Label a location B. Always be able to rush B.
great vid
If I may ask, what did you use to make that dungeon?
"Blue team and Yellow team"
This guy has never once played CS
"LEEverage"
This guy has never once used English language
Can you do a nethack one?
I'll see what I can do. I've never played nethack.
@@DungeonMasterpiece Haha me neither but I love games based on it like wazhack and pathos. Give them a try on your phone. Nothing replicates hardcore D&D better in my opinion. I think you will like it.
@@DungeonMasterpiece it’s a game that is quite not for everyone, and one of the original roguelikes. In fact, the genre’s been so detached from the game “Rogue”, I’ve started referring to “true roguelikes” as “hacklikes” instead.
What’s funny is that Rogue is actually inspired by DnD 1e, particularly Tomb of Horrors. Then “Hack” was made based off of rogue. Then Nethack was basically the final iteration on that classic branch of roguelike.
Ironically, I’ve actually been using it as a basis for my current dungeon crawl campaign, with players basically trapped in the dungeon by an entity feeding off of their suffering and despair, denied true death and forced to continue against their will. All while party continues descending into its depths in the promise of escape laying in below, a true wish that lured them there in the first place.
I actually made a few excel spreadsheets to further aid in dungeon generation, populating it with random items, features, and monsters (primarily constructs called “silverbloods” that are identical in form to creatures on the bestiary but player-hostile in behavior, and other prisoners, here referred to as “redbloods” to differentiate.) even an “identification list” to randomize item identification after each TPK (to mimic the mechanic in Nethack)
I also readjusted short rests to be 10m and long rests to be 1h, with different downtime activities now.
It’s a very different experience from normal DnD, with combat and threat near unceasing, player characters sanity dwindling out of despair until they come across an actual NPC or a place they can finally and safely rest, but pressured on by rapid starvation. There is no predicting on anyone’s part of what happens, and instead allow stories to unfold as the players fight their way through the floors, the maze like corridors full of threats at every bend, and yet the fear of character loss now completely gone, instead replaced with having to bring a player’s corpse to the next floor not to revive them, but so the player can retrieve their belongings off of their own dead body. Occasionally they may find those who decided to settle in and make this place their permanent residence. Shopkeepers selling merchandise or services in exchange for “silverblood” as the currency rather than gold, small groups of survivors setting up encampments, or other lost adventurers, driven completely mad and slaying anyone they come across to sate their own craving for suffering, as if the entity has rubbed off on them.
Basically, the mood is oppressive, and the world is simultaneously claustrophobic yet hauntingly expansive, occasionally changing scenery to a hex crawl as they stumble upon a fragment of another world, laden with threats across an expanse of somehow still lush territory, only now alive with silverblood monsters instead of normal beasts.
I think this is AWESOME! ........for GMs. Players have a totally different view. They will "miss out" on something depending which way they come in and the finale will weaken any other part they explore. If you aren't running a player driven game (which D&D 99.9% isn't) then this style isn't very effective. Or rather is more interesting to GMs than players.
Just have the dungeon converge on the players when the shit hits the fan. Don't let the players clear the rooms one by one.
Agreed. I don't think dungeons need to be looped that heavily as long as there are enough meaningful choices to make. Videogames need loops to save time backtracking but in a TTRPG backtracking takes zero seconds.
I would call Dust2 equally beloved and hated by the CS community. It's a good example of how the philosophy of CS level design was first implemented for competitiveness, but I think Mirage is a better example of how it was refined to near perfection.
de dust 2 got nerfed recently. the mid door getting covered up is its death knell imo. it's like cobble, on the way out.
this sounds exactly how Dark Souls and similar games do their levels, which is one of the reasons they are so good and popular
Wait…the original counter strike came out on the Xbox? For real?
Doom too. Romero had good designs.
jesus thought I was watching this in 1.5 speed
Fractals are involved?
*TOOL has entered the chat*
I know the pieces fit. I watched them tumble down.
DAT REALLY COOL. ORC GO SMARTER
His given name is Paul.
Circuit court judges in King County, Washington sell replacements for $301.50 a pop if you are interested in their services.
When I see a dungeon like the one shown in this video, I find it immersion-breaking. My first thought is to who put in the time, money, and effort to build the place. If I can't make sense of that, then the whole thing comes off as contrived and it ruins the game for me.
Your points on entrances are relevant but don’t pertain to FPS maps since those entrances are static and unchanging. You gave a neat and cropped history on level design that loosely relates to making better dungeons. That said, because you picked FPS maps as a subject you failed to talk about relevance of rooms, flow, uniqueness, and secrets… because those aspects of dungeon creation are irrelevant in FPS games. It’s as if the two things are different for a reason.
My summation of this video is: multiple entrances (not related to the FPS maps) and loops or ‘more than one way to the goal’. Why did it take so long to get there?
As for the different routes, there’s no way they should all be advantageous or as accessible as the next. That is boring and makes your big-bads seem like they are either mentally deficient or have no agency or self-interest. No fortress owner in existence has ever seen a weak spot and said, “Oh that’ll be fiiiine, no need to fortify there!”
I really love your content and your perspective on playing this game.
But goddam. I can never hear you say your name. You gotta relax and say it slow enough that I can hear you.
To be honest… these kind of maps are unrealistic and unnecessary complex.
It may have its benefits as a computer game map, that is played several thousand times or in an mmo…
But making eveey map like this often overconfuses players, and is unrealistic.
You as DM make a lot of effort of potential things players might do, just then to realize players only think about 10% of the options you think you provided them.
The re-play-ability is also why an adventure module would go for this kind of maps, as every run of the module the solution could change.
Early FPS shooters were also limited by their size and CPU/memory power, that is why the levels had to loop much. Especially with arena shooters (like quake or unreal tournament) you could see not all fps fans like this style of play. Halo has some levels for examples with 2 bases in valley or the high bridge levels that also offer several tactical ways but do not loop.
I dont find this video useful to be honest, on the contrary it will just make things worse if you already seek advice.
Maybe there is some more good advice in the design/from this designer, but this video does not show.
I will not and you cant make me
Your videos are good, you and all your speech on the dot, but your subjects is low.... for me! 🤠🤟
I don't know what you mean lol
@@DungeonMasterpiece no worries!
Apart from the way you pronounced 'leverage' I quite liked this video. Thanks for the content.