Joe Bawden solid thought leadership. Back to the founding concepts of IDPA "Participation in IDPA matches requires the use of firearms, holsters and other equipment suitable for concealed carry self-defense." The market has innovated and single stack optics are the dominant every day carry now. I like that IDPA is conservative in its rule changes, but needs to be at least exploring supporting a division for what people actually carry every day. Coming to an IDPA match and switching out your carry gun and gear for you competition gear is an anti pattern. I like that you call out not getting stuck on the "backup gun" name for the division. Actual Carry Pistol may be better. My only civilian use-case for two pistols in heavy winter clothing. I'll carry a primary OWB under my jacket and a J Frame in my pocket that is easier to access and I can keep my hand on it at gas stations etc. That would make for an interesting stage design if the bug can be grounded safely.
@BabyGiraffeIDPA Well you're both clearly wrong 😂 lol I hear you, and I dont disagree with CCP optics in principle. But I'm a little gun lover. That sounded grosser than I meant it.
@@dz-214I’m with ya. I love small guns/shorter slides. But I actually don’t think adding a dot to bug would move the needle. It’s a challenging Div. And most guys don’t want to be challenged that much, with the smaller guns, ammo management, actually having to stage plan, figuring out the new risk/reward metrics and all the reloads. But I could be wrong.
@travispowell2471 you're probably right that most guys don't want to do that. I'm pushing for what I'd like as a way to get the conversation started and to maybe get us to more optics divisions. I think it's time for those conversations to happen. And if we up BUG capacity to 8 or 10 dudes won't have to think as much, 😅 but one step at a time.
@ I don’t mind if they add dots to ccp or bug. But In my perfect world they would leave bug at 6 and put ccp back to 8. Having ccp at 10 makes that Div pretty much redundant other than being able to lower ur PF. The different round counts make it interesting. For stage planning/risk reward factor. And less boring/repetitive than 10+1. We would have many distinct divisions to choose from when you get burned out with everything being 10+1 for the most part.
Great video as always J.B. -perhaps instead of bringing optics to BUG Division, consider bringing BUG (or any other division, e.g., CCP) to CO? What I'm suggesting is similar to Revolver Division having two sub-categories (Stock and Enhanced), CO Division could have BUG-CO, CCP-CO, etc., sub-categories. In matches, if enough competitors (e.g., 5 or more) shoot in a CO sub-category they could be recognized. Also, by affiliating with what IDPA deems a "regular division" like CO would ensure more matches would recognize BUG-CO, etc.
@joeyrusso7775 I think that's a great idea. However, there seems to be a lot of people against adding divisions, which this idea does in a roundabout way, but if it were all reported in CO I guess it wouldn't. Hmm...interesting, I'm all for it if it get me dots on my little guns!
I think we should combine BUG and CCP into one division and make the BUG box slightly larger, or the CCP box slightly smaller. Make the CCP/BUG box just big enough to fit the 43x, 365XL, hellcat pro sized micros but not so tall that the Glock 45 can fit. Maybe rid of SSP and make ESP the only iron sight division for full sized gats. That leaves two divisions for full sized iron sights and full size optics, and two divisions for compact iron sights and compact optics. Revolver should go away too 😵.
Not a backup gun any more? When I carry a backup gun, it's a Sig P238 or either a Kahr P380 or PM9; both of the 380s wear a CT laser so technically they'd be in Carry Optics in IDPA. Another thing, some of us are getting long in tooth and can't see the front sight very well. At least not without special glasses. Night sights aren't bright enough for these old eyes. But, I can see the dot on my RMRs real easily day or night. Optics on every gun? A few years ago when I hosted an outlaw matches at JCSA, I had 3 divisions: BUG, CCP and Full-size - all were irons or dots; shooter's choice. People loved it.
Good vid, Joe. thanks. Good point about building the rules to encourage use of what people actually carry. I'm playing with how to build stages that are very bug friendly, including J frame revolvers. You point out how difficult Bug R is to shoot; I think it is difficult to the point of discouraging playing the Bug R game at all. I'm not sure I've even seen anyone shoot Bug R. A long shot with a 2" SW J frame with fixed sights is what, 7 yds? I know there are cats that can ring the bell at 30 yds but 15-20 yd shots with a Roscoe isn't likely to score well, if at all, for many shooters. And lots of people still carry J frame size revolvers, just look at sales figures for the snubbies. Anyway, Rant Over. If you come to Port Townsend for our next match you will find a Bug friendly match.
@richardlindquist5936 I'm gonna try and make it down there for that. Not sure what my girl has planned for me that weekend. Happy spouse, happy house, am I right?
I think combining CCP and BUG as you dsscribed would be ideal. However, I think ots too much change for the org and the membership to be cool with it. Im focusing on optics in BUG to just try and move the needle. Then try from there for round count or box size changes. Thanks foe the input! Glad to know Im not the only one thinkong abkut these things!
Carry Optics is the division of 2011’s and other full sized ESP guns. There is hardly anything practical and or “every day carry” about carry optics division anymore. IDPA needs to take a serious look at their divisions and make some big changes and one of them is opening up a second division of carry optics for the smaller sized guns.
Thanks Joe. My take on BUG optic is great idea, but gotta make the P365XL and Glock 43X size legal cause so many people now carry them with optic. Also, all BUG needs to be at least 8+1, I’d actually prefer 10+1. I will definitly shoot that division.
I agree Jim, I'm just hoping IDPA will give us Optics to test the waters, then I'll make a bunch more videos asking for more rounds and bigger sizes! Lol
Wasn't pcsl doing ACP- actual carry pistol, dot or no dot, box sized to fit a g19. I think similar set up for ccp and bug would be ideal. Same size gun. Dot or no dot. SSP will always remain stock irons but the weight cap needs to be dropped to reflect actual service pistols, g17-beretta 92 weight. CO is fine just throw everyone with a full size pistol and dot on there.
Yes! PCSL does have a carry pistol division, dot or no dot. I think it's a great idea. There hasn't been much PCSL up here, but I'd love to get to some of those matches. I think the idea of a stock service pistol is also a lot different than when these divisions were developed. I think it's more like CO now than anything, except for the allowable mods. Most LE agencies won't let dudes fiddle with internal components, which is understandable. I think an SSP dot division,no mods but any action type would be interesting. And have a classic division all irons and allowable mods. Maybe not exactly that, but something along those lines.
@ counter- does not adjusting the weights just turn it into Uspsa production? Like. Sig legion should not be construed as a “production” or “ssp” gun. I'm one of the dudes who thinks the names have meaning and should reflect reality.
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Great video.
Joe Bawden solid thought leadership. Back to the founding concepts of IDPA "Participation in IDPA matches requires the use of firearms, holsters and other equipment suitable for concealed carry self-defense." The market has innovated and single stack optics are the dominant every day carry now. I like that IDPA is conservative in its rule changes, but needs to be at least exploring supporting a division for what people actually carry every day. Coming to an IDPA match and switching out your carry gun and gear for you competition gear is an anti pattern. I like that you call out not getting stuck on the "backup gun" name for the division. Actual Carry Pistol may be better. My only civilian use-case for two pistols in heavy winter clothing. I'll carry a primary OWB under my jacket and a J Frame in my pocket that is easier to access and I can keep my hand on it at gas stations etc. That would make for an interesting stage design if the bug can be grounded safely.
You make some interesting points. I feel it makes more sense to add dot to ccp tho as opposed to bug. Just my opinion.
Agreed. Glock 19 with a Dot is my EDC. -Rich (because Alex isn’t old enough to carry yet 😂)
@BabyGiraffeIDPA Well you're both clearly wrong 😂 lol I hear you, and I dont disagree with CCP optics in principle. But I'm a little gun lover. That sounded grosser than I meant it.
@@dz-214I’m with ya. I love small guns/shorter slides. But I actually don’t think adding a dot to bug would move the needle. It’s a challenging Div. And most guys don’t want to be challenged that much, with the smaller guns, ammo management, actually having to stage plan, figuring out the new risk/reward metrics and all the reloads. But I could be wrong.
@travispowell2471 you're probably right that most guys don't want to do that. I'm pushing for what I'd like as a way to get the conversation started and to maybe get us to more optics divisions. I think it's time for those conversations to happen. And if we up BUG capacity to 8 or 10 dudes won't have to think as much, 😅 but one step at a time.
@ I don’t mind if they add dots to ccp or bug. But In my perfect world they
would leave bug at 6 and put ccp back to 8.
Having ccp at 10 makes that Div pretty much redundant other than being able to lower ur PF.
The different round counts make it interesting. For stage planning/risk reward factor. And less boring/repetitive than 10+1.
We would have many distinct divisions to choose from when you get burned out with everything being 10+1 for the most part.
Great video as always J.B. -perhaps instead of bringing optics to BUG Division, consider bringing BUG (or any other division, e.g., CCP) to CO? What I'm suggesting is similar to Revolver Division having two sub-categories (Stock and Enhanced), CO Division could have BUG-CO, CCP-CO, etc., sub-categories. In matches, if enough competitors (e.g., 5 or more) shoot in a CO sub-category they could be recognized. Also, by affiliating with what IDPA deems a "regular division" like CO would ensure more matches would recognize BUG-CO, etc.
@joeyrusso7775 I think that's a great idea. However, there seems to be a lot of people against adding divisions, which this idea does in a roundabout way, but if it were all reported in CO I guess it wouldn't. Hmm...interesting, I'm all for it if it get me dots on my little guns!
I think we should combine BUG and CCP into one division and make the BUG box slightly larger, or the CCP box slightly smaller. Make the CCP/BUG box just big enough to fit the 43x, 365XL, hellcat pro sized micros but not so tall that the Glock 45 can fit. Maybe rid of SSP and make ESP the only iron sight division for full sized gats. That leaves two divisions for full sized iron sights and full size optics, and two divisions for compact iron sights and compact optics. Revolver should go away too 😵.
Can't agree with you more, Bug should be our OPEN Division. Increase the size of the box a little and put a weight limit on it that makes sense.
Not a backup gun any more? When I carry a backup gun, it's a Sig P238 or either a Kahr P380 or PM9; both of the 380s wear a CT laser so technically they'd be in Carry Optics in IDPA. Another thing, some of us are getting long in tooth and can't see the front sight very well. At least not without special glasses. Night sights aren't bright enough for these old eyes. But, I can see the dot on my RMRs real easily day or night. Optics on every gun? A few years ago when I hosted an outlaw matches at JCSA, I had 3 divisions: BUG, CCP and Full-size - all were irons or dots; shooter's choice. People loved it.
Good vid, Joe. thanks. Good point about building the rules to encourage use of what people actually carry.
I'm playing with how to build stages that are very bug friendly, including J frame revolvers. You point out how difficult Bug R is to shoot; I think it is difficult to the point of discouraging playing the Bug R game at all. I'm not sure I've even seen anyone shoot Bug R. A long shot with a 2" SW J frame with fixed sights is what, 7 yds? I know there are cats that can ring the bell at 30 yds but 15-20 yd shots with a Roscoe isn't likely to score well, if at all, for many shooters. And lots of people still carry J frame size revolvers, just look at sales figures for the snubbies. Anyway, Rant Over. If you come to Port Townsend for our next match you will find a Bug friendly match.
@richardlindquist5936 I'm gonna try and make it down there for that. Not sure what my girl has planned for me that weekend. Happy spouse, happy house, am I right?
I think combining CCP and BUG as you dsscribed would be ideal. However, I think ots too much change for the org and the membership to be cool with it. Im focusing on optics in BUG to just try and move the needle. Then try from there for round count or box size changes. Thanks foe the input! Glad to know Im not the only one thinkong abkut these things!
@@dz-214 yeah lots of people would be big mad because their expensive CCP gat probably wouldn't fit the box anymore
Carry Optics is the division of 2011’s and other full sized ESP guns. There is hardly anything practical and or “every day carry” about carry optics division anymore. IDPA needs to take a serious look at their divisions and make some big changes and one of them is opening up a second division of carry optics for the smaller sized guns.
@@PPSChadwick couldn't agree more.
Thanks Joe. My take on BUG optic is great idea, but gotta make the P365XL and Glock 43X size legal cause so many people now carry them with optic. Also, all BUG needs to be at least 8+1, I’d actually prefer 10+1. I will definitly shoot that division.
I agree Jim, I'm just hoping IDPA will give us Optics to test the waters, then I'll make a bunch more videos asking for more rounds and bigger sizes! Lol
Wasn't pcsl doing ACP- actual carry pistol, dot or no dot, box sized to fit a g19. I think similar set up for ccp and bug would be ideal. Same size gun. Dot or no dot. SSP will always remain stock irons but the weight cap needs to be dropped to reflect actual service pistols, g17-beretta 92 weight. CO is fine just throw everyone with a full size pistol and dot on there.
Yes! PCSL does have a carry pistol division, dot or no dot. I think it's a great idea. There hasn't been much PCSL up here, but I'd love to get to some of those matches. I think the idea of a stock service pistol is also a lot different than when these divisions were developed. I think it's more like CO now than anything, except for the allowable mods. Most LE agencies won't let dudes fiddle with internal components, which is understandable. I think an SSP dot division,no mods but any action type would be interesting. And have a classic division all irons and allowable mods. Maybe not exactly that, but something along those lines.
@ counter- does not adjusting the weights just turn it into Uspsa production? Like. Sig legion should not be construed as a “production” or “ssp” gun. I'm one of the dudes who thinks the names have meaning and should reflect reality.
It's 2025, optics belong on every gun. What if they keep the same sized boxes but allow optics on everything? Make it CO Full/Compact/Micro
I think thats a great idea. Equals things out a little bit more.