Why Did Mercedes Abandon Le Mans?

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  • Опубликовано: 27 сен 2024
  • In 1999 Mercedes’ new Le Mans prototype car, named the CLR, famously decided to take up aerobatics, ending up airborne on three separate occasions at the famous track in Sarthe, France. Today we’re exploring the story of the infamous Mercedes CLR, and we’ll discover how exactly it all went so badly wrong.
    #mercedes #lemans #racing

Комментарии • 354

  • @berkan5578
    @berkan5578 2 года назад +807

    The Fact that Mercedes made a Racecar but still insisted to put a Hood Ornament on it is Incredible

  • @Lamalas
    @Lamalas 2 года назад +354

    Mark Webber must have the world record for most racing cars flipped during a professional career.

    • @exotica550
      @exotica550 2 года назад +28

      Yes, but at least he got lots of Frequent Flyer Points from QANTAS...

    • @coma3550
      @coma3550 2 года назад +5

      Yeh maybe, what's he up to, 3 or 4 ?

    • @KillerViper16
      @KillerViper16 2 года назад +3

      @@coma3550 As long as I know 3

    • @purwantiallan5089
      @purwantiallan5089 Год назад +1

      @@coma3550 3. But 4 also adding with Sauber Mercedes C9 when playing Gran Turismo 4.

    • @crf80fdarkdays
      @crf80fdarkdays Год назад

      @@purwantiallan5089 lol does it do the same?

  • @anzaca1
    @anzaca1 2 года назад +430

    One thing you can't fault the CLRs for is driver protection. The fact that they Webber experienced what is essentially a plane crash, twice, and survived both times with basically no injuries is a credit to the cars' strength.

    • @pandanikos
      @pandanikos 2 года назад +8

      or luck

    • @cycleoflife565
      @cycleoflife565 2 года назад +84

      @@pandanikos Three times with no injuries is beyond luck.

    • @gx4548
      @gx4548 2 года назад +6

      Safety is a point expensively addressed.

    • @TheOtherNeutrino
      @TheOtherNeutrino 2 года назад +1

      Won't be the last time he flips airborne in a racecar either.

    • @barfuss2007
      @barfuss2007 Год назад +2

      the test drivers have no security cage like Webber

  • @AndyFromBeaverton
    @AndyFromBeaverton 2 года назад +201

    I just can't imagine a CLK-GTR as a road car. Parked it looked like it was going 100mph.

    • @purwantiallan5089
      @purwantiallan5089 Год назад +8

      The top speed actually 219mph. I used that car in NFSIII HOT PURSUIT.

    • @battleoid2411
      @battleoid2411 Год назад +25

      @@purwantiallan5089 Yeah, the world renowned racing simulation need for speed lol

    • @mtekleel
      @mtekleel Год назад +2

      @@battleoid2411 Yes, NFS is an arcade game, but it's still a valid estimate of the car's performance

    • @yofolkdem1256
      @yofolkdem1256 Год назад +7

      @@mtekleel nah it's not, cause the physics engine of the game and the need for game balance would dictate the performance of all vehicles.

    • @Ardonn
      @Ardonn Год назад

      @@mtekleel Lol. No.

  • @leandrociarrapico9256
    @leandrociarrapico9256 2 года назад +269

    Mercedes: We need good top speed guys, so make an aerodynamic car.
    Engineers: Gotcha **Create an airplane wing with wheels**
    Mercedes: (._.)

    • @automobilistic
      @automobilistic  2 года назад +40

      "The best, or nothing"

    • @mariinito1793
      @mariinito1793 2 года назад +26

      Mercedes' F1 team : Gotcha. *Creates some of the most impressive cars the Automotive world has ever seen, like the W11, and absolutely dominating an entire era winning 8 World Championship titles in a row*
      Mercedes' LeMans team : Yeah but can it fly???

    • @dreadalex
      @dreadalex 2 года назад +4

      Mark do not do the slipstream, do not do the slipstream.

    • @bahardin3992
      @bahardin3992 2 года назад +1

      @@dreadalex Mark - box, box, box.
      ( oops, sorry wrong race.. 😅😁 )

    • @purwantiallan5089
      @purwantiallan5089 Год назад

      @@automobilistic Mark Webber ever wanted to become a pilot in 2000.

  • @marks7197
    @marks7197 2 года назад +101

    Mercedes have a very poor track record of flying cars at Le Mans, obviously 1955 is the worst but in addition to this flight in '99, John Nielsen went up and over the Mulsanne Bosse at 220mph in the 1985 works backed Sauber.

    • @JP-xd6fm
      @JP-xd6fm 2 года назад +6

      1955 one is the worse accident ever in motorsport, isn't? and yet the race continued, what a crazy times

    • @marks7197
      @marks7197 2 года назад +18

      @@JP-xd6fm The organisers feared the roads would be blocked by the leaving spectators preventing emergency services from attending the injured. It was correct to continue in my mind for this reason alone.

    • @JP-xd6fm
      @JP-xd6fm 2 года назад +1

      @@marks7197 Sure, so true, at that time there was no helicopters to rescue people and a cuarter of million people is a lot of people that would had blocked the roads, so yes it was a smart move from the organisers.

    • @noobsaibot7006
      @noobsaibot7006 Год назад

      Caused by Mike Hawthorn himself not Mercedes

    • @marks7197
      @marks7197 Год назад

      @@noobsaibot7006 Not at all, The footage shows it was Macklin who lost control and veered into the Mercedes path. He probably was too focused on his rear view mirror.

  • @intorsusvolo7834
    @intorsusvolo7834 2 года назад +29

    Good thing it flipped three times since cameras missed the first two.

  • @alrecks619
    @alrecks619 2 года назад +90

    love that Mercedes is so ashamed of the CLR it seems that the car itself never made into any video games.

    • @mannificent9527
      @mannificent9527 2 года назад +7

      I think I remember seeing it in Gran turismo 3

    • @legoferrari14
      @legoferrari14 2 года назад +31

      @@mannificent9527 No, that was one of the previous-generation CLK's. There is a CLR mod for Assetto Corsa though, developed by United Racing Design.

    • @shieldranger_fm2947
      @shieldranger_fm2947 2 года назад +27

      yeah they have never even put in their museum in Stuttgart. I mean the clk is there but no clr in sight

    • @arkeusalexander9054
      @arkeusalexander9054 2 года назад +4

      The only video game in which i ran with a CLR is probably Assetto Corsa (modded).
      Same goes for group c cars such as Mercedes Benz C11 1991, Porsche 956 1983, Jaguar XJR-14 1992, Mazda MRX-1 1992...etc

    • @RobBCactive
      @RobBCactive 2 года назад +41

      Isn't it a mod for MS Flight Simulator?

  • @II_Hylander
    @II_Hylander 2 года назад +16

    Wasn't there a rumor with the first airborne launch that Mercedes blamed Webber for it? Like the driver has a button to fly off into the crowd 🤣

    • @automobilistic
      @automobilistic  2 года назад +2

      I haven't heard that but it wouldnt surprise me hahaha

    • @tweed0929
      @tweed0929 2 года назад +21

      Yes. They didn't believe Webber until the flight was captured on camera. Mark Webber was livid and was ready to beat team's principals faces.

    • @walover165
      @walover165 Год назад

      Not a rumour, it's been confirmed. He was berated for wrecking the car and nobody at Merc believed it was the car and not him.

  • @BaronKube
    @BaronKube 2 года назад +11

    Less than 1000 views? This is such a good video though! I hope this blows up soon

    • @automobilistic
      @automobilistic  2 года назад +2

      Thanks! I really appreciate it :) glad you enjoyed the video!

  • @ssctiyo4735
    @ssctiyo4735 Год назад +8

    One things for sure is that this car is quite rigid, doesnt suffer too much body damage from 3 airborne crashes and the drivers each times it happen survived with minimal injuries, well except the 3rd one where it KOed the driver for a bit

  • @colinstewart1432
    @colinstewart1432 Год назад +6

    Webber seemed to spend an inordinate amount of his career airborne and backwards. Top bloke. Should have at least one F1 championship, but for RB management bias

  • @ChrisMolyneaux93
    @ChrisMolyneaux93 2 года назад +9

    Mark Webber: Cars can’t fly.
    Mercedes and Red Bull: hold our beers

    • @JPa2986
      @JPa2986 Год назад

      Nah, for red bull: hold our energy drink

    • @wroomwroomboy123
      @wroomwroomboy123 Год назад

      *Mercedes and Red Bull:* Cars can't fly
      *Mark Webber:*

  • @TheMashinac
    @TheMashinac 2 года назад +8

    Dalmas also flipped in Porsche at Road Atlanta in 1998

    • @blankfiile
      @blankfiile 2 года назад +1

      And Auberlen flipped the bmw in 2000 i think. these cars just seemed to have the tendency to flip

    • @e-money9251
      @e-money9251 Год назад

      @@blankfiile the germans do love their aeronautical engineering a bit too much sometimes

  • @63bplumb
    @63bplumb 2 года назад +6

    It was a warm summer's day and all my windows were open at my house as I watched the race. When the car flipped out of control all I could say was OMG! OMG! my neighbor came out of their back door and yelled over the fence to ask if I was OK! I didn't realize how loud I had yelled it! lol

  • @sovereign3351
    @sovereign3351 Год назад +1

    Oh man hearing those Gran Turismo 2 menu themes brings back memories

  • @mechanicandi1064
    @mechanicandi1064 2 года назад +5

    The CLK GTR & CL R was a pretty cool design but sucks that AMG went thru horribly with these accidents 😳

  • @GeneralKenobi69420
    @GeneralKenobi69420 Год назад +6

    I'm honestly not THAT much into cars but the CLK GTR (road legal version of the CLR) has been my dream car ever since I've played Midnight Club 3 on PS2 years ago. It looks a little "watered down" compared to the original CLR but hey at least it can still be bought, unlike the CLR which might as well not exist lol

  • @sixfive5784
    @sixfive5784 2 года назад +2

    I remember that race and it stuck in my brain till this day

  • @GT7PS5VR2
    @GT7PS5VR2 2 года назад +7

    Bro your videos are incredible, they deserve many more views than they’re currently getting.

    • @automobilistic
      @automobilistic  2 года назад +2

      Thanks! Really glad you're enjoying the videos!

  • @luisabreu1198
    @luisabreu1198 2 года назад +4

    Forgot to mention the remain chassis in the hands of a private collector in Germany, Mercedes wants nothing to do with the car anymore, it is one of their biggest shames, they don't even mention the successful CLK-GTR and CLK-LM anymore. They also don't mention how they helped kill GT1 in it's original form.

    • @luisabreu1198
      @luisabreu1198 2 года назад

      There is footage on vimeo youtube wont allow to post a link search user GURNEYFLAP is around from 2009

    • @mauladiraushanhidayat6648
      @mauladiraushanhidayat6648 2 года назад

      Why they didn't mention the successful GTR and LM?

    • @luisabreu1198
      @luisabreu1198 2 года назад +1

      @@mauladiraushanhidayat6648 i guess they want people to forget about CLR debacle.

    • @mauladiraushanhidayat6648
      @mauladiraushanhidayat6648 2 года назад

      @@luisabreu1198 I think they need to mention the successful GTR and LM. Because people always got wrong about CLR...

    • @luisabreu1198
      @luisabreu1198 2 года назад +1

      @@mauladiraushanhidayat6648 Pretty much. The Lm and Gtr are such iconic cars.

  • @rcajavus8141
    @rcajavus8141 2 года назад +3

    0:08 worlds shortest drum :D

  • @Beyond_Slots
    @Beyond_Slots 2 года назад +1

    I LUV THE GRAN TURISMO 2 SOUNDTRACK IN THE BACKGROUND!

  • @DJBillionator
    @DJBillionator 2 года назад +1

    I love how you used Gran Turismo lobby music.

  • @slaine0537
    @slaine0537 Год назад +2

    This is a true definition of the flying car

  • @garysvan
    @garysvan 2 года назад +1

    Excellent use of the gran turismo music.

  • @heatmonster420
    @heatmonster420 2 года назад +2

    Dude the sound track is so nostalgic. Grand tourismo I think 🤔

    • @automobilistic
      @automobilistic  2 года назад +2

      yes! All the music is from the Gran Turismo games (mostly GT2 and 3)

    • @acid420tv6
      @acid420tv6 Год назад

      I remember these tracks while gawking at all the cars and reading all their info the game provided. I was like 8-10 yo.

  • @nuGGet909
    @nuGGet909 2 года назад +1

    class touch with the grand turismo music

  • @davidvasquez08
    @davidvasquez08 2 года назад +1

    Webber:*FLIES*
    RedBull: *LET’S SIGN HIM*

  • @jacksmith4460
    @jacksmith4460 2 года назад

    your group C/LMP/GT1 vids are really great thanks

  • @alexandermcdaniel1479
    @alexandermcdaniel1479 Год назад

    My favorite part about this video is that he used Gran Turismo music. Amazing

  • @saibot20194
    @saibot20194 6 месяцев назад

    Mercedes in 1999: “Do you wanna test your flying capabilities as a car driver?” Okay… 😂

  • @rabmccudden683
    @rabmccudden683 2 года назад

    Great vids sir. I’ve watched a couple there, I dig the Gran Turismo music lol. New sub 😎👍🏻

  • @alexander-mauricemillamlae4567

    People are like "where are flying cars" when theyve been here for ages

  • @bober1019
    @bober1019 Год назад

    because according to the video thumbnail, they took to the skies and can now be seen amongst the ranks of the snow birds.

  • @TJG239
    @TJG239 Год назад

    love the Gran Turismo backing music ;)

  • @a92gsxdsm
    @a92gsxdsm 2 года назад

    1 of my favorite cars in Gt7. Thanks for the video mate!! Look forward to the next 1.

    • @automobilistic
      @automobilistic  2 года назад +1

      Glad you enjoyed it!

    • @Romulus1001
      @Romulus1001 2 года назад

      Shame added the LM V8 version to GT7 and not the V12. The actual dominant version of the car was in V12 form and it's what everyone thinks about when they think of CLK GTR.

    • @timmycrockett3348
      @timmycrockett3348 2 года назад +4

      @@Romulus1001 wdym they won all 10 races with the v8 lm in 1998

    • @traviswalker8933
      @traviswalker8933 2 года назад

      @@Romulus1001 the LM was more successful.

    • @mauladiraushanhidayat6648
      @mauladiraushanhidayat6648 2 года назад

      ​@@Romulus1001 The actual dominant car was the V8's LM. It wins 10/10 races in 1998. While the V12's GTR wins 6/11 races in the previous season...

  • @mechanix1228
    @mechanix1228 Год назад

    Jesus I've never seen that footage of the car flipping. I can't unsee it now.

  • @TheHondacivicfd2
    @TheHondacivicfd2 2 года назад

    Love Gran Turismo 2 music in the background!

  • @gayleknight1282
    @gayleknight1282 2 года назад

    Brilliant! Loving your work :)

  • @maxpower2631
    @maxpower2631 2 года назад

    Mercedes Engineer 1:
    "You know what this car needs?
    Mercedes Engineer 2:
    "No, what?"
    Mercedes Engineer 1:
    "A Turbo Boost button. You know that TV show, Knight Rider?"
    Mercedes Engineer 2:
    "Oh yeah, that show was awesome. Let's do this"

  • @extremedrivr
    @extremedrivr 2 года назад +1

    It's the flat bottom of the car where the air had nowhere to go except to lift it like an airplane.
    That's always been my assessment and I'm stickin to it.

    • @automobilistic
      @automobilistic  2 года назад +5

      Many cars, including modern race cars, make use of flat floors to reduce drag. The CLR's primary issue was the magnitude of the front overhang. The bigger overhang meant that in cases where the front of the car lifted away from the ground slightly (such as going over a crest), the lift force acting in front of the front wheels was able lever the car into the air. Once the front wheels had left the ground, the flat floor acted as a wing as you say, but it should never have reached that point in the first place. That's my understanding at least.

    • @extremedrivr
      @extremedrivr 2 года назад

      @@automobilistic And yes that too which I had forgotten until the video.

    • @hirisk761
      @hirisk761 2 года назад +2

      NASCAR had a similar issue with the next gen car blowing over. they put a huge wing on the trunk lid. turns out that when the car got backwards the wing did it's job and took off. funny how aero works

  • @ImInLoveWithBulla
    @ImInLoveWithBulla 2 года назад +1

    The CLK-GTR was always my favorite car to race in Gran Turismo. It’s a shame they never put the CLR in.

    • @SoftBreadSoft
      @SoftBreadSoft 2 года назад +7

      Gran Turismo didn't have any flight physics support

    • @pier-lucgaranddion1527
      @pier-lucgaranddion1527 Год назад

      Manufacturers have to greenlight the inclusion of cars into race games. I think Mercedes wanted the whole world to just forget about the CLR after these 3 incidents, forget it ever existed, never show it again, never talk about it again. Obviously, that was never going to happen. Case in point, this video. Also, Barbara Streisand effect and all.

    • @e-money9251
      @e-money9251 Год назад

      @@SoftBreadSoft just you wait, microsoft will probably put it on the cover of their next flight simulator title

  • @oleriis-vestergaard6844
    @oleriis-vestergaard6844 Год назад

    The danish le mans winner John Nielsen told that he went under a car up in the air , must be a Mercedes

  • @ChrJahnsen
    @ChrJahnsen Год назад

    SUCh a shame. That Mercedes was such a phenomenal car and great looking to boot. 😫😫

  • @StochasticWolf
    @StochasticWolf Год назад

    The Gran Turismo 2 background music though

  • @christianbuczko1481
    @christianbuczko1481 Год назад

    Its incompetency which caused the cars to take off. It should have been tested better, provided with sufficient downforce.

  • @juanmaldonado3281
    @juanmaldonado3281 2 года назад

    WAW. A SUPER. AWESOME. STORY. TNKS. AND. BLESSED BE SIR

  • @Private.Willie.Stroker
    @Private.Willie.Stroker Год назад

    The driver his phone was probably on airplane mode

  • @ravinraven6913
    @ravinraven6913 Год назад +1

    nice way to block the last few seconds with a suggested video to watch. It went right over the car, so what was the point in adding that last bit instead of a voice over to finish it off?

  • @WZ97U
    @WZ97U Год назад

    I'm a simple man. I hear gran Turismo 2 bgm, I click like.

  • @faridarridho8620
    @faridarridho8620 2 года назад +2

    Mercedes benz clr also have another problem. The distances between on edge of front bumper and front wheels are too long that could cause the car fly (the rear part too)
    Idk what's goin on Mercedes benz team mind when designing that car that they forgot to revise that distance.

    • @r0b3rt_959
      @r0b3rt_959 2 года назад +1

      Too much bumper overhang

  • @gabrielmarcilio4944
    @gabrielmarcilio4944 2 года назад

    I love the background music from GT 💚

  • @Truxxxor
    @Truxxxor Год назад

    Nice background music! Used in Gran Turismo gaming series!

  • @andrewince8824
    @andrewince8824 Год назад

    Weber just wanted to fly like his hero, Graham Hill, difference is Weber decided to combine motor racing with civil aviation.

  • @Mr.Rendier
    @Mr.Rendier Год назад +1

    the downforce of these cars is just insane! wow

  • @verstraetenandre
    @verstraetenandre Год назад +1

    The mercedes CLR was a great plane!

  • @anotherrandomcommenter4473
    @anotherrandomcommenter4473 Год назад

    Mercedes behind Panoz? I remember the Panoz in GT4 could only beat the Gillet Vertigo.

  • @oleriis-vestergaard6844
    @oleriis-vestergaard6844 2 года назад

    Guess they said to the drivers meeting - START OKAY - Landing not okay

  • @original-iy4lk
    @original-iy4lk Год назад

    so if someone ever say to you "i will do that when the cars fly" just show them this video

  • @killingfields1424
    @killingfields1424 2 года назад

    They have monopolized the game that seems like nothing can beat them.

  • @roan2512
    @roan2512 Год назад

    I guess too much down force on the Rare until the front is lift up enough to push more air to the front until the car send flying 😅

  • @danielecattabriga2168
    @danielecattabriga2168 2 года назад

    I got an ad on this video from Mercedes about the EQS

  • @johnmarshall4442
    @johnmarshall4442 2 года назад

    I actually watched this live on television when it happened.

  • @littlerougue
    @littlerougue Год назад

    I had no idea this happened three total times and twice to Webber, I am not sure I would have strapped into that thing after it happening twice in a few days

  • @minireddy17
    @minireddy17 Год назад

    Now i see why F1 fans say w11 and w12 is a rocket

  • @itsjoethegamerdud4343
    @itsjoethegamerdud4343 Год назад

    I'm laughing...the way looks so unfortunate to see istg the way it went on wheelies and lifted up the car....never seen that in my life

  • @MH-YouTube-Controlled
    @MH-YouTube-Controlled Год назад +1

    Does Mercedes hold the record for flying cars at Le Mans?

  • @blerst7066
    @blerst7066 10 месяцев назад

    If Mercedes made planes, they'd be really good at it.

  • @tumslucks9781
    @tumslucks9781 2 года назад

    Mercedes used a McLaren F1 GTR as an aerodynamic benchmark.
    The cars are aesthetically dissimilar so maybe that was the problem?

  • @misiopuchatek152
    @misiopuchatek152 Год назад

    8:06 immediately is not the right word to use in that case… I mean three lift offs after?! I’m shocked FIA didn’t disqualified them after the second one… they were a deadly danger for the other cars, drivers and viewers. Only a miracle that nobody was actually hurt and all of the cars landed on their wheels.

  • @adeadgirl13
    @adeadgirl13 Год назад

    What's the physics explanation for this? These cars are basically upside down reverse wings, aren't they?

  • @johnyossarian1135
    @johnyossarian1135 Год назад

    I got a Toyota ad before the video. They know

  • @rodey6594
    @rodey6594 2 года назад

    Webber and the airborne backflips

  • @James-May
    @James-May 2 года назад

    That's what happens when you dive into loopholes

  • @anhondacivic6541
    @anhondacivic6541 2 года назад

    1999, the year where mercedes sent cars flying at france and the toyota leman curse has struck again

    • @e-money9251
      @e-money9251 Год назад +1

      I suppose the french weren’t that pleased when they heard that a fast german machine that could fly landed in their country again

  • @fug_momo3729
    @fug_momo3729 2 года назад

    I remember watching this crash live on tv

  • @jrojassengard2586
    @jrojassengard2586 Год назад

    Yeah they really did a 180 on Le Mans

  • @black4277
    @black4277 2 года назад

    Mercedes is working on flying!!! You didn't know that I did with the first clip..

  • @rbernardo4748
    @rbernardo4748 Год назад

    Appreciate the gran Turismo 2 background music, 🔥

  • @trangenusa
    @trangenusa Год назад

    so did THEY figure out how and why that car liked to go airbord?

  • @gtsupreme
    @gtsupreme Год назад

    Everyone hates Mr. Bernie for "destroing dtm, c" but it's a naive way to think . Thanks to him we later had even better cars and racing

  • @stooartbabay
    @stooartbabay 2 года назад

    Jesus! That is crazy.

  • @kuwaitman
    @kuwaitman Год назад

    What was the reason for the left?

  • @jonnywalker3208
    @jonnywalker3208 2 года назад

    I always thought it was the CLK GTR 😬

  • @oogieboogie1578
    @oogieboogie1578 Год назад

    They pursued their aircraft career

  • @OmarSpence
    @OmarSpence Год назад

    It doesn't matter what color underwear you picked this morning, cuz it gon' be brown today 😅

  • @ylmztechnics6950
    @ylmztechnics6950 2 года назад

    The beauty of this car 🥰

  • @buttafan4010
    @buttafan4010 Год назад

    Great video! thx 1138

  • @MrDazzlerdarren
    @MrDazzlerdarren 2 года назад

    Is that Gran Turismo menu music I hear?

  • @ognjenvlahovic3195
    @ognjenvlahovic3195 Год назад

    Mark weber = flying

  • @TheLuminousOne
    @TheLuminousOne 2 года назад

    Because their car took off like a Giovanní Giorgío meme.

  • @jelhaj7769
    @jelhaj7769 Год назад

    gran tourismo a spec music love it

  • @thomastims6763
    @thomastims6763 Год назад

    Flying cars... They do exist!!!

  • @c.c2979
    @c.c2979 2 года назад

    Mercedes Benz engineered like no other car 👌

  • @TineFangaming
    @TineFangaming 2 года назад

    That's MARK WEBBER!!!

  • @andrewnewton9083
    @andrewnewton9083 2 года назад

    It was caught on TV cameras
    Because I watched it

  • @DrWhom
    @DrWhom Год назад

    type strassenversion into google translate. click detect language. click the speaker icon. listen

  • @Zoonsky
    @Zoonsky 2 года назад

    7:27 who the hell is supposed to be Thierry Bouston

  • @_MD_D
    @_MD_D Год назад

    Why ?
    Because we fucking can, and if we can we do.
    Mark webber, probably.