Do Narcissists "Know What They're Doing?"
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- Опубликовано: 5 сен 2024
- In this video, Dr. Ettensohn discusses the topic of self-awareness in NPD. Numerous commenters have shared their belief that narcissists "know what they are doing"...that they are fully aware of the harm caused by their behaviors. Centering the conversation in the idea of mental illness, Dr. Ettensohn discusses the faulty attributions, skewed perceptions, and interpersonal deficits often associated with pathological narcissism and NPD.
The video ends with an appeal to viewers to consume reasonable, moderate, nonpolarized perspectives on charged issues like NPD.
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Thing I find annoying about narcs is that they are super sensitive, and need handling very carefully so as not to upset them in any way. You spend all your time and energy being super tuned in to their special needs, I guess like a petulant spoiled child. But when it comes to you, and your owns needs they rampantly trample on your sensibilities and feelings. It's totally one-sided care. Over time that just becomes intolerable. You are not being your authentic self around them because you are dealing with someone so fragile. It's exhausting and it becomes fake. If you have to continually pander to someone's super sensitivity to any hint of criticism you are not helping that person to grow. You are just enabling the behaviour to become more entrenched and unrealistic.
Me too. Made me ill.
absolutely. It's pretty much like dealing with a toddler. Everything is about them. You're constantly managing them, making sure they're happy, but it's an impossible task anyway because they are never happy, always angry at something no matter how small it is. They are mentally ill. They hurt others so badly because they are also suffering immensely themselves.
The victims of the worst narc abuse also have to live double lives in order to be accepted. Because society is conditioned to go along with the topnarcs lies.
Most of we Americans are victims of mass narcissistic abuse and are flying monkeys as well. In a nutshell.
Ugh! Debilitating
They change their behaviours based on who is around. That implies they know what they’re doing.
Precisely. It’s very common and how this simple fact can be over looked is beyond me. The know exactly what they are doing!
@@col2959 they absolutely do. hence the smirk when they have are verbally and emotionally destroying you. they know
@@FindYourFreeI've had one guy try and do exactly that to me once and ran. Why do people see it and don't tho? Because when you see it, there is no doubt.
They clearly know how they will be judged for, for instance, raging at their young kids. So they do it behind closed doors. BUT they think that somehow, they are RIGHT to rage at their kids. Since they think they’re the victims.
My father used to tell me and my brother that he “was a slave to his father and now a slave to his children. When will it be MY turn?!?” Said this when I was young, maybe 9 or 10 years old.
Narcissistics Personality Disorder is a real mental illness and I ve been observing a couple in this way for a very long time....They get just more and more evil!Their perception is extremely distorted!
Someone once told me, never have empathy for a lion that is attacking you, there will come a silence where it stops and you will show empathy knowing that it's not the lions fault for being so aggressive, that it's hard wired like this and it must be your fault for being in the lions presence. You decided not defending yourself anymore and remove the hate, anxiety and fear in your heart and replace it with empathy and understanding. You decide to turn around and walk away, thinking that you just show the lion you are not a threat anymore and it will save your life. So you walk away, or even trying to help the lion. All goes dark, with only a sudden pain and warmth feeling in your neck. You never wake up again. No more dreams, no more any thing.
I fell in love with a man that could be described exactly as you've stated in this video. It's only been a couple of months since I left and I miss him, wish with all my being that he had been the healthy, charming person he represented himself to be. He's not evil, but some of his actions and words definitely were. I can understand why some might think people with Narcissistic characteristics are demonic but they are really just extremely mal-adjusted and dysfunctional; hurting deeply on the inside and, as a self-protective measure, extremely lacking in self-awareness. It's heartbreaking and devastating, for them and for the people that try to love them.
They are fully aware of what they do but they do not care. Just as you try and live as a healthy human being they also have the opportunity to do so. Forgive them for they do not know what they do. At the same time educate them for what they do. If they do not listen dust your hands and feet and take care of yourself. Wishing you all the best
@@desouzarm They aren't fully aware, but only somewhat. I think mine was lower on the spectrum of it. He knew and felt a lot of shame at times. He knew the difference between right and wrong, but his impulses compelled him. The lying and cheating are what drove me to end it after 10 years.
Same
@@saintejeannedarc9460SAME
@@saintejeannedarc9460If we're honest with ourselves, it's hard to say whether or not they are aware. Because evil and ignorance actually look identical in this context..
I tried being compassionate to the narcissist before and it almost killed me. Compassion is dangerous for victims. I stayed with a narcissist for 10 years because I thought he was just mentally ill and needed my love and understanding. In the process, I nearly destroyed myself. In another run-in with a narcissist, I tried to have an honest conversation with her about how her treatment (inviting other friends out while excluding me continually) was making me feel. She looked me in the eyes and her eyes and voice totally changed. She said, “I’m a woman. I know EXACTLY how it feels.” I got chills.
Yes, I believe they KNOW what they’re doing. I also believe they feel justified doing it because they had it done to them once. Flipping the script now puts them in a position of power where they felt powerless before. Their attachment to their own ego leads them to NEED this retribution when they can’t go back and receive vengeance for the past.
Of course, they are victims. Yes, they took the wrong path. I do believe their victims are also justified looking at them as demons or ranting about narcissism if it helps them to heal and not perpetuate the cycle of abuse. It’s leaving the blame where it lies and not transferring it to some other individual in the future.
Having had to deal with abuse from multiple narcissists over the course of my life, I agree that they suffer from mental illness and are miserable. I wish them well and hope they find peace, an attitude I try to extend to all people, but at this point I'm very intolerant of narcissistic behaviors and want nothing to do with such people.
The fact they pretend to be wonderful people to most but are terribly cruel to a specific person shows its deliberate.
It proves they are aware their actions are deemed evil and hurtful by society and that they have the capacity to not give in to their harmful behavior when it is in their best interest
Or it just proves that they dont care because they have a mental disorder but to survive they act a certain way in certain circumstances. Doesn't mean they understand their behavior is wrong.@@mindfulmagnates
@@everett8610 when "they act in a certain way" in public and switch at home, they know what they're doing
When they isolate you from your loved ones so you have no support system one the abuse starts, they know what they're doing.
Call it a mental illness, personality disorder, whatever you want, it doesn't change the fact they're aware. They know they are insecure and hate when people figure it out, hence the rage.
They enjoy breaking you piece by piece because that's the only way for them to feel good about themselves, and they know it's wrong because they get furious if you dare speak about it to others.
They know the difference between right or wrong, but think it doesn't apply to them.
I could go on all day bringing up examples from personal experience, but sufice to say, the narc I've been living with for over a decade, outright told me he knows what he's doing, that he uses people for different needs and doesn't care about them otherwise... and if I don't like it "there's the door" (another power play of his cause of course I cannot leave)
Like others said, it's like dealing with a spoiled toddler who knows that screaming and manipulating gets them exactly what they want.... But the difference is, if this "toddler" gets real angry with you, you're risking your life.
Agree 💯 %
The same way a depressed person who doesn't get out of bed to take care of their responsibilities doesn't care about their life or loved ones? Or the way a person with OCD doesn't care about their family because they insist and pressure them to do compulsion's and reassure them even though they know it's harming them? The same way a drug addict will lie and steal from their families to feed their habit even though they are filled with self loathing about it? I get there is a line where people need to do what's best for them and have boundaries, but ALL people with mental health disorder's need compassion. You don't need to take on the personal responsibly of helping them, but to spread the narrative that they're evil or its a character flaw when someone is actually unwell is part of the problem in terms of empowering the suffering to seek help. It's not easy to be mature about it, put your hurts aside and see it without judgement, but it's what's necessary in healing. The least everyone could do is not make it worse by making NPD/ other personalities disorders seem worse in nature. All people with mental health problems impact people around them negatively. At times, all people impact people around them negatively.
Finally I've found someone who can realistically talk about narcissists without projecting all over them. Bravo!
Thanks for watching.
Indeed. While in other videos they are mostly described as total monsters devoid of any humanity (they can sometimes fall that low though if they possess a high level of sociopathy), this guy provides a more objective and fair overview of the personality disorder.
Although they can do a lot of harm to people around them and most of the time the best course of action is to stay away, it's good to understand that most are simply mentally ill and broken individuals who, deep inside, also suffer and are very unhappy. Those who look for it, deserve a chance to heal and redeem themselves if they can.
Perfectly said Carl. Agreed!
@@Sextus70 Yeah, like how are we supposed to identify these people in our lives when characterizations are all we have to go with
If you change your behavior based on where yiu are and the people you talk to, then you know what you are doing.
It’s so shocking as a wife who after 15 years of crazy behavior starts becoming an enemy. Really its better to get out because they do actually start seeing us as enemies out to destroy them. We feel equally or more so betrayed by the extreme selfishness, entitlement and dark behavior. I’m just scared of him now.
Me too. Afraid of ex and family members who learned Dads behaviour. Is it nature or nuture? But its there.
I'm so feeling your comment.. the ongoing trauma for you that led to the current " splitting " is exacerbated beyond tolerance by the inability to reconnect to your loved one by their refusal to acknowledge anything good or lovable in you, and their revision of your shared history leaves you alienated and alone in a relationship that has no purpose and has never been to them worthy of the effort, love and pain you have endured validating it..
another truly " dark night of the soul "
I didnt see it.. Until I married.
Yes Dark night of the soul.
Life is good now... The darkness has lifted somewhat. And each day gets better.
I saw mine as the enemy when he was lying and cheating and told him so. He's been out for 6 months because the lying and cheating continued.
Wow. I actually appreciate this explanation of NPD. I by no means excuse their behavior... however, when you view it in a way that their perception is distorted it helps to understand why they act and do what they do
I appreciate the compassion you bring to the subject. very much needed in this space
Thanks, and thanks for watching.
One of the most confusing and painful parts of dealing with a person with NPD, especially the covert type, is that you can find no logical explanation for why they go from loving to hostile and disdainful of your very being. They also can convince themselves and others that they are wonderful, generous, caring people while turning on the fire hose of inexplicable hatred towards their favorite scapegoat for their unhappiness. When that is YOU, you are in for a world of pain that seems never ending. They seem to keep a running list of all the things they convince themselves you have done to wrong them, and they feed their own grudges in order to explain their "feelings", which, to them, justify the way they behave. They are, in short "self-reinforcing" and confuse feelings with reality. To save your own sanity, you have to get away from a person who is as emotionally dysregulated and unpredictably explosive or sulky as they are.......please talk about how these people can fool some therapists into believing that the way they present themselves as victims of their scapegoat is real.
My mom concern trolled me once. She called me with an audience on her end and put on her best voice tremble. I didn’t buy it and asked her who she was performing for. Instantly, her audience wanted to comfort her because of her compassion less child. She is a child counselor that should never have been allowed contact with children. Foster kids would report sexual abuse to her and she refused to report it. When confronted, she was the victim.
I don’t expect therapists to admit they’ve been duped by those with NPD. Unfortunately, I know far too many that should be diagnosed themselves.
Incredibly well said! One of the most precise breakdowns I've ever read 👏👏👏💔💔🫶
Very well said and on point to the tee, they all act the same, I think there’s more to it then simply mental health issues, Dominic seems to fit, all from one person the devil horns not included
My father most likely has undiagnosed NPD. I like the little shaman YT channel. She makes an analogy between narcs and crocodiles. Crocodiles aren’t evil or cruel. They simply do what they do to survive. Same with narcs. It just so happens that narcs, like crocodiles, can do a lot of damage and cause a lot of pain, and destroy lives yet seem totally unaware of the carnage.
When we demonize others, we are essentially splitting on them like narcissists do. It may seem simpler to view the world in black and white, but the concept of splitting is a defense mechanism typically associated with childhood and is not suitable for mature adulthood. The reality is more complex than a simple dichotomy. While individuals with NPD may be aware that their actions cause harm, they can be so consumed by their own triggers and impulses that they may not fully grasp the origin or appropriateness of their hurtful behaviors, which often stem from deep-rooted issues.
In situations where someone is attacked and responds defensively, their actions are often deemed justifiable due to a perceived threat to their safety. Similarly, individuals with NPD may perceive constant "attacks" around them, leading to their defensive and hurtful behaviors. The core issue lies in their genuine belief that their reactions are warranted based on how they believe they have been treated.
This dynamic is reminiscent of the tale of Don Quixote, a frail old man who mistook windmills for giants and felt compelled to confront them in battle, despite everyone telling him he was wrong. Like Don Quixote, these individuals grappling with their inner struggles often project their fears and insecurities onto external sources, interpreting everyday challenges as personal affronts or "giants" that require a defensive response.
He's saying that while it is totally appropriate to protect yourself from harm, it's not helpful or fair to demonize people with this disorder. See it for what it is. It's a shitty reality for all involved.
I am bipolar 1. I have been in treatment for decades and I understand mental illnesses. I always gave my narcissistic bf a pass thinking he didn’t really realize how what he was doing affected me. Then I watched him in an argument with another man. He was horrible to him. Not unusual, but then got calm and cold and told the man every physical symptom and mental thought process the man was going through from his abuse. Then he smiled and laughed at him. And he came back and was so happy. That is when I realized he knew exactly how what he did to me made me feel. And I told him that I figured that out from the argument. And he spent the next two days pretending I was talking about everything else. Like I was upset he argued with the guy and others. But refused to acknowledge or accept my observation that he knows exactly what he’s doing. It was crazy. I have since left him and now healing.
I can completely relate to what your saying. I experienced the same thing with my ex gf. She went full on rage towards me, I moved out the flat for safety reasons. The next time I went to fetch my staff. She acted like nothing happened. She was all dressed up , make up and everything...I jus ignored her. Which made her even more angry. 😅
it would not benefit him to admit it
He sounds like a psychopath to me. Might be a malignant subtype?
😂which is another thing they do.My ex would invite his almost ex gf .and let her hit on him in front of me, but mainly behind my back ..Everytime including the time I told him i m leaving+ its over, would insist I m angry at her
I told him
😮 I m not at all angry at her bcoz it's your responsibility to not allow it .. + you keep inviting her ,and dont even admit it happenns. .
He d repeat ,
🤨you are angry at her,why don't you go argue with her.
[ ....Thats your house .you should show her. (lol 😂😂the audacity)]
😶I ve got nothing against her, i m angry at you
🤨No,you are angry at her i get it
Very few people with NPD even have a diagnosis. I wonder when people claim "my ex with NPD did this" what diagnosis they actually qualify for & is that the ONLY diagnosis they qualify for. I suspect, dispite what people claim, that the partner is the one labeling them with NPD.
Beyond that, it's always sad to see someone with any mental health issue, particularly something like Bipolar paint other SMI with a broad brush. I can't even count the times I've read posts with sentiments akin to: "My ex with Bipolar did xyz... RUN".
I have been searching for two years + for content like yours, and I am truly grateful for the time you take to make these videos and the knowledge you have. All the sensational videos on RUclips destroyed my own mental health and probably made my own situation an awful lot worse as a result. Now I can step back and look with humanity and humility, and make better decisions for the future. X
I agree that all the adverse youtube videos may colour your view too much but the message still is to avoid this person for your own good, sadly. In the end whether they are aware or not they will harm you, possibly very badly. That is the crux of the matter. I adored my narc but came to understand why she made me feel so bad. I thought I would become physically ill too. Lucky for me her view of me started out as “All good” but changed to “All bad” and she then moved on. She actually said she was a high level narcissist and seemed proud of it. I was 70, she was 60 with a string of failed relationships….she said they mostly just petered out.
this is great clarification
I learned as a child that i was suppose to "understand " my fathers behavior because of his
abusive parents. This was my mothers way of justifying his abuse of us all.
This taught me as an adult to "understand" my partners abuse of me and excuse it to "forgive" which turned into tolerating mistreatment.I think holding on to anger feels like
a way of self protection, it's almost scary to let it go.
You are justified to be angry and it's part of the 5 stages of grief. It's healthier for you to get through those stages to acceptance and then forgiveness. This will bring you peace. If you get peaceful and healthy, that's the freedom to treat yourself better and not fall back into an abusive caretaker relationship again.
This was helpful. I can relate in some sense. Hope you're doing well.
I appreciate that a narcissistic abuser may not be aware of how abusive they are. Mental illness is no joke. And no matter what a person's diagnosis is, they do not have the right to abuse you.
I really like your presentation! I spent 8 yrs with a narcissist. He needed love and understanding. It has been a roller coaster. I HAVE a Developmental Psychology Degree.
In my life path the education was usefull. I put it down to Misplaced Anger. I would leave ..... go back.
Tried to talk to him.
I did not realize it was never going to change. This last time I have blocked him. Taking me a long time to put myself back together. It got so bad that no matter
What I would comment.....it was taken as an insult. If we were with other people it was OK he was good.
I am now healing.
Was brutal. Sad because I love him.
I identify with your presentation. Thx!
This is one of the most compassionate depictions of narcissism I have ever heard.
That being said, I think that the very best thing you can do with regard to a narcissist is to force them to see that they are WRONG. Their reality is wrong, their perceptions are wrong, their behavior is inappropriate. Force them to endure consequences for their actions. Make them experience the shame that they have developed workarounds for.
Their wall of protection blinds them from reality and only protects them from feelings that they are supposed to feel.
Regardless of trauma. Abuse is a choice. They know exactly what they are doing.
It certainly feels like they know, but in the event that they don't, it's up to them to do something about it. As long as people validate them or enable them by sticking around giving them their friendship, they will never evolve. They won't have to.
I think they're indulged, spoilt and imo, they should be left to collapse.
THANK YOU FOR THIS, was married to a narcissist for 28yrs divorced now his womanising became to much, he now 66 and he still running around looking for supply, it's EXTREMELY SAD and people just laugh him but he still thinks he is the BOMB, such a waste of life, he had a LOVING wife children who loved him, beautiful home etc but NOTHING WAS ENOUGH, he just can't do family and he on continuous seach for love, he has MANY MANY BROKEN RELATIONSHIPS, but blames his exes and issues they have, i gone no contact years and years ago, he doesn't bother with his own children and grandchildren, feel it's taken over his life (NPD) but not my problem anymore.
All of your videos help me tremendously in understanding the mental illness that is NPD, in myself and in others. The epiphanies just keep coming. But this video in particular was such a gift. Being able to view my ex with distanced compassion, instead of mountainous resentment and hate, is a gamechanger for me. THANK YOU -- what a service you are providing!
🤗 Thanks. It means a lot to know that you feel helped.
I love that Dr Ramani recognises that histrionic personality disorder is pretty much narcissism light, but it astounds me a bit that she wants NPD to be gotten rid of entirely and that it is an egosyntonic disorder whereby the sufferer is basically psychotic and unaware of what they're doing because of this. They're practically like schizophrenics, if you've ever dealt with one.
Calculating is spot on. Narcissists know just when to say the most concerning and thoughtful phrases in front of others to look like the good guy, while they've already told you the opposite and have you riled up. Then the eyes focus on you as the one with the issue.
Calculating and manipulation are a narcissists forte.
My father today in therapy 🙄
When I was preteen I would lie in bed with insomnia and 'pray' to the universe that my eldest brother would become 'normal' for our peace (he never did; now deceased at 58 y/o). He tormented me in every way and caused never ending chaos and violence in the home, which was enabled by mom while dad was unaware of certain events (due to mom's coverups). I recall my observation to another sibling how mom (covert) must really hate herself to behave the way she does and tolerate her childrens' abuse of her and others. I have another brother that I suspect has malignant NPD/APD. I've discussed with a fellow family member 'truth teller' scapegoat (who has also detached from family for peace and mental health), how sad that he must be so miserably unhappy. It's difficult to understand the complete lack of self awareness and accountability for the problems in their lives. The consequences of their actions and behaviour is ALWAYS the fault of others.
NPD, as I know it, is a combination of cognitive distortions and behavioral dysregulation (where I think of some thought patterns & attitudes as "behavior'). From what I can tell, the dysregulation is pretty much correlated with the cognitive distortion. WIth some pause and effort, the distortion can be lessened, but in the pace of real life, we don't always have time to slow down, and sometimes there are spikes of crisis or conflict (normal in family, friend-groups & professional scenarios) where even normal people can have a narrowing of cognitive wherewithal - and where people with NPD are prone to notable moments of misunderstanding (mis-assessment / mis-calibration) that can result in real breakdowns. So, even with therapy and awareness, I think people with NPD have to be careful to avoid environments that are too pressured or stressful, and to be realistic about job / career choices... and maybe also to avoid social situations that could present too much pressure or drama.
I've been living this proposed advice for the past five years. Drama is at a minimum, and I have trained myself to think before I act every time. I've noticed that people REALLY respect someone who thinks before they speak!
@@AlastorTheNPDemon -- yeah, sometimes a change in environment can go a long way :-)
Narcs have a short fuse.
NPD love disorder & chaos from my experience.
@@attractarattigan3574 -- Yes, that's a major roadblock, for sure. Although, it's like any addiction... At the bottom it's more about the adrenaline & the feeling of it. Obviously, to get better, even before going to therapy, there has to be a glimmer of insight in the NPD person... that something's not right with me, and that I need to reassess my life. Even if it's just a tiny glimmer of insight. The same is true w addictions... some people do get better, but a glimmer of insight has to appear before the process can get started, sadly. Even more sadly, many people who start the path of insight often end up relapsing. So, for sure, it's a serious issue (that NPD people are sort of adapted & habituated to the turmoil of toxicity). Sucks... but all we can do is try to spread awareness where we can, and to improve the general understanding that exists in society in general.
I am 50 years old and the golden child of an overt narcissistic mother. I have dedicated the last 25 years of my life to accomplishing two goals:
1) Personal & spiritual growth to become the best person I can be.
2) Eradicating the damage my mother’s gaslighting inflicted on my psyche.
Before you form any assumptions, please know I am well-versed on narcissism. In fact, I’ve published a book on the subject. As such, after watching this video, I must ask you if you’re aware that your tone and word choices sound sympathetic towards narcissists and contentious toward the abuse survivors.
I agree that narcissism is a mental illness and that the result of their actions constitutes abuse. I also agree that narcissists may not be consciously “aware” of the harm they’re causing. However, they are definitely aware of their actions/behavior. Every action is hard-wired toward self-preservation and self-gratification.
The soft language you use such as “skewed perception of circumstances”, “no ability to understand their behavior” and “difficulty drawing reasonable conclusions” paint them as sufferers or victims. In reality, the verbiage should be “apathetic and self-serving perception of circumstances”, “refusal to understand their behavior” and “incapable of drawing reasonable conclusions.”
When you said, “narcissists are not happy. They’re empty inside”, the rest of the sentence SHOULD read, “and it’s everyone else’s fault.” That’s when I knew I had to write this comment.
I’m glad you mentioned that it’s ok to leave a narcissistic abusive relationship, but what about the children who can’t leave a narcissistic parent? That parent has an 18 year blank canvas to destroy. We shouldn’t sympathize with the parents, we should rescue those kids!
I’ve watched western society slowly wisen up to the truth of narcissism in the last few decades. With your profession and expertise, you have a priceless opportunity to use this platform to expand society’s knowledge and go to THE SOURCE of the issue instead of concentrating on mopping up the mental and emotional quagmire narcissism leaves in its wake.
Although I admittedly have not watched any of your other videos, the borderline-gaslighting content of this one single video has the capacity to send our progress tumbling back 20 years or more.
I urge you to use your outreach on this platform wisely. Unless of course your perceived sympathy stems from your own personal narcissism, in which case, I’m talking to a brick wall and this comment will be deemed as an “attack” and promptly removed. I truly hope you recognize the difference between an attack and an opinion that varies from your own. You can prove your recognition by leaving this comment up.
Society will continue to progress in their understanding, but until the day that narcissism can be identified and treated like any other “mental illness” and their resulting abuse criminalized, don’t you dare minimize or shame the so-called “attacks” in the comments no matter how unsophisticated their delivery.
These people are angry and deeply scarred. Every ounce of their rage and confusion is justified. Many of THEM are unhappy and empty inside and they will never completely recover.
I want them to know that the narci-monster in their life is NOT a victim. You did nothing to earn or deserve such abuse. Do you hear me out there?? There was nothing you could have done to change it or stop it or fix it. YOU were the victim, but you’re not anymore. It’s time to heal. It’s time to live!
Exactly. Understanding the origins and analyzing every interaction won’t fix an abusive relationship. They do know because they act different around peripheral people. My mother I later found out made up all kinds of stories about me so that others wouldn’t believe me when the truth came out about her abuse behind closed doors. That sure sounds knowing and manipulative to me! I think this channel is solely to help narcissists who are capable of self reflecting figure THEMSELVES out, not excuse their behavior. Everyone’s different and the rest of us have to determine what we are willing to allow into our lives as adults.
Excellent comment! Says it all
Brava! Well said and thank you.
I appreciate your approach! What I find challenging is, to deal with a person with narcissistic traits based on fair understanding while at the same time setting healthy boundaries.
This is very much the challenge. 🌈⭐️
You can set multiple boundaries and they are adept at slipping round them every time.
@@thrivingnow7395 This is true. What Ben at Raw Motivations says about boundaries is so key. Boundaries are for you. They are your own internal marker that you set for yourself. To impose and tell them to others is more setting rules and regulations. That really helped.
Your video on malignant narcissists is spot on with my experiences and with what my narc friend has been through as a child. I do have compassion and really enjoy your more positive compassionate views that align with mine. I also appreciate the other less responsible(?) demonising channels that empower the victims of narcissusts to take back their power and control of life. As you have here. I have come to the point of giving up that I can help, life doesn't work in that relationship and am going my own way now. Thank you for your videos. I only discovered your channel yesterday 🙂
Thanks for watching.
While you perfectly described my father, my mother is some different sort; always composed, calculated, manipulative. Rationale - I was born 5 months after wedding and brought her shame, her son, born after me, prestige, (as sons do), so she treated me accordingly. She knew very well what she was doing, and she didn't loose a minute of sleep because of it. Anyway, excellent videos. I hope your channel will grow as it should.
I agree with him but just from my experience there is Definitely a level of awareness and them being aware doesn’t stop or change anything.
The lack of self awareness in narcissistic personalities is what I personally find to be the one trait that stands out above all others. They say and do the most outlandish things that most people would not do. They are "over the top". They over compensate. Overcompensation seems to be the cornerstone of this mental illness to me. So I think that if a person lacks self awareness, then naturally they are going to heavily deviate from "social norms" in a way that is so baffling to the rest of us who try so hard to "play nice" and do everything we can to fit into a polite society, where basic rules of common courtesy and good manners are practiced on a regular basis. I know that if I make a rude or critical comment to someone that I love, they will pull away. They will become angered. They will resent me. They are likely to withdraw their love and sever ties with me. Therefore, I make a conscious decision to avoid saying anything that I know will insult someone. Narcissists will not do this. Quite the opposite. They will blurt out that VERY hurtful comment what will injure their loved one and then be shocked when the fallout occurs. This is what stands out the most for me. The lack of empathy for the feelings of others and the lack of self awareness and how others perceive them. This video and the way you have explained everything is so insightful and articulate. Thank you for the valuable information. You are helping so many people to understand this illness that is so devastating not only to those who have NPD but also for the victims of narcissistic abuse who desperately need validation for their feelings in order to mitigate the confusion and despair that follows in the aftermath.
If people with NPD don’t know what their doing, why is it Dr that they are able to alter their behaviour in an instant should say …. their boss from work turn up , or the neighbour they have been portraying a lovely personality to…. No you’ve got it very wrong and are in fact doing victims of narcissistic abuse, particularly those still in such relationships , a great disservice
@col2959 - As I've said elsewhere, the point of this video is not to suggest that narcissists are completely unaware of their own behavior, as though they were stumbling around in a dark room. That would be absurd. The point is to emphasize that pathological narcissism is a mental illness, and mental illnesses impact perception. Perception influences behavior.
Basically, people with pathological narcissism and NPD often rely on a defense called splitting. Splitting creates separate silos or islands of perception. When in one self-state, the person may view themselves, others, circumstances, and relationships one way. When in a different self-state, they may have vastly different perceptions. Perception influences behavior. The self that relates to family members may be vastly different than the self that relates to a boss.
Just because someone can code switch and behave professionally toward a boss, or sit nicely at a fancy restaurant, doesn't exclude the possibility that they are mentally ill. Narcissists often project their unwanted qualities onto those around them. This is caused by underlying confusion in the personality between self and others. They are more likely to have this confusion when it comes to people with whom they are very close and comfortable. They are far less likely to have this confusion with a boss or stranger they are first meeting. They are likely to default to "professional" or "polite" communication with such a figure, even if they were moments ago in the throes of an angry tirade toward a family member.
Additionally, narcissists have impaired self-esteem. They rely on those around them to 'puff up' or improve their self-image. They accomplish this by ingratiating themselves toward those who have status or people that they admire. This often translates to flattering behavior toward a boss or someone with high status, while they may be dismissive or devaluing toward those who are close to them.
it's a specific formula - they are all text book how can this be and why heavy religion in every one i've dealt with
Having had a parent, a spouse, and yet another almost spouse with this 'illness' my opinion is that it doesn't matter if they know what they are doing or not, the damage done is the same. They all 3 still make excuses for their tormenting behaviors to this day and it is too exhausting for any person to spend time on. Let the professionals do that.
My dad is probably a narcissist I’m fairly certain, and my boyfriend (who is very similar in personality) was diagnosed with ASPD/NPD/BPD by the prison psychiatrist. I appreciate this channel because it’s really hard to come to terms with, or even make sense of the hurtful behaviors and actions of the very people you have so much love in your heart for. I appreciate you calling out the unhelpful online exhochambers that depict narcissists as demonic entities or evil character disordered individuals who intentionally cause harm. When you compare them with a person who is drowning or dying of thirst, I think that’s true. They are so hurting, hollow and desperate
:( thank you for setting me straight because I was getting caught up in the false depiction too.
Stop dating damaged people. You like the bad boys because you love the drama and chaos. Try dating a nice guy that you friend zoned
You need to break up with that guy. You're just replacing one abuser (father) with another abuser (criminal boyfriend). That's a dangerous game you're playing.
She needs to come to terms with her own decisions herself. If she decides that's what's best she will do it, I'm sure.
I understand the mental health professional invested in treating narcissism standpoint. And after half a year of therapy, a dozen books read on the subject, support groups sessions, self love exercises, I am at the point where I want and can start looking at it from this perspective. As much as I hate the disorder, I don't hate the people that have it and hurt me. But... there's a reason why the internet is full of narcissistic abuse recovery strategies and not of paranoid abuse recovery strategies (the percentages of npd and paranoid personality disorder are comparable). Npd's problem is the excessive need for being special and feel admired while many of us need to make others feel special and admire them so the match between demand and offer may have something to do with it but surely the fact that NPD are extremely emotionally damaging is the most essential factor. And even the fact that some of us need to make others feel special and admired at our own expense is itself sometimes the result of narcissistic abuse in childhood, as is the lack of healthy anger and disappointment that would make one walk away from the red flags that they encounter in adult romantic relationships. So they do have a very negative impact on a considerable number of people. Yes, "bad" and "evil" may not be philosophically or morally accurate since them finding themselves in the emotional state where they "have" to devalue you takes them by surprise as much as it takes you and the "intention" of "evil" may not exist in a "psychological" sense. But does that help when the way they sooth themselves harm you to the point where is pulls out chunks of your soul? Does it help when you're drowning in the guilt and self blame they put you in before they discarded you and you cry rivers of tears not even understanding what's going on it a therapy office while they seem to be living their best life with their next source of supply which also seems to have been the previous source of supply that they blatantly lied about. That sounds pretty evil to me, with or without awareness. Should we continue to try to develop ways to treat them? Absolutely! Should we try to have compassion even when it cannot be reciprocated? Absolutely! The have had it worse than us, their victims, and maybe still do. But they are a different emotional species, one that hurts. My point is that this video also misses some perspectives. And it's hard not to when you talk about narcissism, because the perspective of the tortured victim cannot be reconciled withe perspective of the abuser, and they are abusers, whether aware of it or not. Sure, if we have the luxury of a very healthy emotional background or if we've invested a lot of effort in understanding the topic and healing from unfortunate encounters we can just walk away from engaging and look back with compassion, but this is not the case for many people.
I appreciate you’re so informed take on the dynamics of narcissism and BPD. I feel for most of us narcissism is a huge mystery and so ignorance breathes attempt us to theorize what’s happening… Often times the series not lining up with reality. Thank you for clarification.
People with NPD are mentally ill, but they are not insane. These people know what they are doing and they do it, at the expense of others, because it works for them. It's impossible to dispute that as narcissists conscientiously monitor and adjust their behavior, depending on the given situation, and that itself is proof enough that they know right from wrong and therefore can control how they act just like anyone else.
@Walterbenny4099 - I hate to say this, but read the comments. All of your points have been addressed, some multiple times. Thanks for watching!
I honestly didn't realise how much I was hurting my ex I knew something was wrong I was trying to figure it out as I knew my moods weren't right I kept thinking am I normal am I too sarcastic I didn't realise until he asked for a break I have hurt everyone I would rather be dead I keep hurting people I don't know why
@@CassandraSchuback-ro9qhI don't think that you have NPD as your actions are not intentionally meant to hurt others in order to glorifying yourself. You may have a mood disorder or BPD. Talk to your general practitioner about a diagnosis and treatment options.
You don’t know what you’re talking about. But that’s okay. I can answer any questions you may have. You think we do…. What…intentionally? I can explain In excruciating details for you from my own experience about how I was not doing it intentionally. It looks like it, that much I can’t deny.
Yea they do but they have mentality of an 8 yr old
Wow,, noone has ever taken the pain to explain this thing with so much clarity and empathy....no drama ,only clarity! Hatsoff
Thank you. This is a breath of fresh air. Much needed. Every person with NPD is not the same, every person with NPD is not inherently dangerous. Every person who treats others without empathy does not have NPD. Every behavior of a person with NPD is not willfully done to harm others.
I agree with some of this, maybe those that are low on the spectrum but my parents were high on the spectrum, very violent and cruel. I was no threat to them at all at age 5, so then why did they whip and beat me daily? I saw intense rage but only when no one else was looking. They could control it. They unleashed when they knew they would get away with it. The abuse came with no reason and it was daily. I have thought all my life they were demons so it's not surprising to hear others think the same. I was a such a good little girl and never deserved that kind of treatment. I can handle this personality type as an adult but as a little girl dealing with such evil, my perspective is very different from those that had loving parents.
1) most narcissists aren't abusive;
2) are you sure your parents were narcissists, and not just abusers? (perhaps sadistic or psychopaths?)
3) the video didn't say that you should've tolerated any abuse. It quite explicitly said that abuse should be not tolerated, by anyone and from anyone.
When does it stop being narcissism and start being psycopathy or sadism? I think this is the problem with the term 'narcissist' - it's being used to describe any appalling behaviour, when in fact it is a term used to describe a much narrower set of behaviours.
@TH Exactly.
Susan,
This is how I handle it. I call the sadistic ones narcissist/psychopaths. Here on RUclips the psychologists simply term the cruel ones narcissists. It’s like they’re using the term narcissist as an umbrella term. But they are talking about the cruel sadistic ones. These are the ones that we are complaining about. We’re not complaining about the mild ones.
Rv706,
Yes, you should get away from a narcissist/psychopath but she was five years old.
Here’s another problem people raised in this environment are trained to take this bizarre behavior as normal then when they become adults, they usually marry someone with these traits. So, the suggestion is to leave but here’s the problem: A person is slowly acclimated to the abuse. Once they realize, hey this isn’t right, they try to rationalize with the abuser to solve problems only that won’t work like it would between two neurotipicals. Instead, the narcissist/psychopath will behave for a while. Then what happens is cycles happens; cognitive dissonance happens, being in a fog, low self esteem, low self worth, possibly suicidal. Eventually a person will find out what went on and do further research into understanding what had happened to them and they will be angry about it. They will remember when the Narcissist/psychopath was deliberate and they will be further angered about that, bad mouth them and all of those types and want to warn the world so as not to have to go through the same experience.
In general, I agree with your perspective that people high in narcissistic traits, or have full NPD, are simply ill. I also agree that focusing on blame is not helpful in the end. However, there is a complication here around awareness and accountability that seems to fuel these polar views. My default position was that their illness prevents awareness, so their can not be any blame attached to them so they are not accountable. However, My ex girlfriend told me specifically the following: "I knew deep down what I was doing was wrong", "I'm doing it to be spiteful to you" (it being saying very hurtful things) and "If people knew what I was really thinking, they would lock me up and pump me full of drugs". She also said that she was justified and entitled to her bad behaviour because she had been abused as a child.
Also, when I asked her why she was 'teasing,' me in a derogatory/offensive way. She told me it was good fun for her. She also seemed to genuinely enjoy hurting me and gaining power over me when I was at some of my most vulnerable times.
These statements show a high degree of awareness that what she was doing was wrong. But I agree that this still does not imply any awareness of the damage her behaviour caused. It could be more that the sense/shame of right and wrong was externalised, rather than being driven by her own values and feelings?
It seems you can find self reporting narcissists that will say the same - and people are all so different, and their trauma's are different. A lot of other specialists in this area also talk about the motivations and that they do intend to hurt you - in the way a toddler intends to hurt you, guilt you, be the victim. There is a component of delusion as well. in the things they think people are doing to them. In a lot of ways it feels like there is agreement here. I have seen Dr Ramani talk and she is careful about discussing which forms of narcissism she is talking about and the her perspective is based on the people she has worked with.
They are aware but will never take accountability is my feeling.
Yep. The closest my mom ever got to admitting was “I do things that I just can’t remember” and yet she can be adamant she never did it when called out. 🤷♀️
My ex told me, she knew that she was mean to me. But she didn't know why.
At least she knew her behaviour and that it was unacceptable. And I guess she did not even care for the "why" because of her entitlement. "When I'm doing it it must be justified". And if that would be enough to be incapable of guilt...
Women, in general, are far more conscious of what they do and why they do it than men are. Consider this, though: a woman who is says mean things to her husband because she wants to make him feel bad, and knows full well that this what’s happening, vs a man who spends all day playing video games, watching people have sex on his phone, and otherwise ignoring her, but has no idea that he’s doing anything wrong. Say they’re a couple. Who is the bigger victim?
Thank you again for this approach. ❤ This helps me to understand the person in my life of whom i think he is a narcissist, so much better. In this way i can keep seeing him as a human being... Who is suffering aswel, but can not talk about it. Has blind spots... And yes, i still feel love for him, but am at safe emotional distance, finally... Took me years...
What other channels do you recommend? And what books? Most channels learn me to hate the narcissist and see them as pure evil.... I don't want that approach anymore. It doesn't help me.
Thank you for all the good advice!
Glad it was helpful.
The channel BorderlinerNotes is geared towards people with BPD but it also has a few great interviews with other psychologists who treat NPD and see the disorder from an empathetic/compassionate lens. It's the only other resource I found before HealNPD came on the scene.
This explanation is 100% on the mark with regards to dealing with BPD & NPD as an illness and not something that is being done on purpose. Once you come to this realization it is much easier to empathize and stop taking their behavior so personally. It doesn't change the feelings of loss or the damage done but it certainly helps once you understand what this man is explaining to you. I keep waiting for this person to get well but they never do and it's been 13 years. I attempted to help this person for 30 years and at times I was able to but they always reverted back to suffering from the illness, even to the point of having to be hospitalized only to come out of the hospital in the very same state except now they were fully medicated. After all this time this splitting he speaks of is fully on display & I am not alone in seeing it. No Contact was ultimately the best route to go for my own protection. I still miss the person I thought I married so long ago but she ceases to exist as she once was. I truly sympathize with anyone that suffers from these conditions as well as those who have been negatively affected by their behaviors & association with them. It's no one's fault, it's an illness.🐻🐻
Thank you for the video. I fully agree that narcissists are not aware of what they are doing and do not see their splitting or skewed view of things. In one sense I think that you could say that narcissists (just like everyone else) see the world through the lens of their childhood where their understanding of the world was formed. They experienced abuse and that they could not trust the most important people in their lives, their parents, and this early experience is imprinted in their body and has become the template from which the are operating interpersonally. Because of this trauma they are hypervigilant and always on the lookout for signs that the abuse and breach of trust could be occurring in the present (and no wonder that they are, this is what they experienced through out their formative years. All human beings (as well as animals) extrapolate from their childhood experiences to their present life; our only means of predicting the future is drawing on past experience). Neutral and benign statements or actions from others that bear just the slightest resemblance in any way to the trauma that happened in their childhood (a look, a furrowed brow, a tone of voice or even the physical appearance of someone or their clothes etc.) trigger the childhood pain and as a result a stress response. And I think that out of the four trauma responses (fight/flight/freeze/fawn) the people who developed narcissism most likely get a sympathetic nervous system activation in response to the perceived danger (the fight response), and stress hormones are pumped out into their bodies. When this happens, the frontal lobes shut down and rational thought, reasoning, decision-making, empathy for others etc. is no longer possible. This is what I would understand as "the drowning" that you described in another video. They simply fight for their lives in order not to be engulfed by the pain, the shame, the terror they experienced in their childhood. And internally the conclusion arises "I knew it, of course I could not trust this person", and they browse though their history with this person and find confirmation that indeed this person is all bad. Then they move on to the next person in the hope that this new person will never trigger those unbearable feelings. But of course this happens again and will continue to happen, until the narcissist finds the help from a therapist to hold space for these unbearable feelings, to feel compassion for their own suffering and to regulate themselves.
I feel terrible I knew I was down and something was wrong realising I abused my ex and then caused a smesr campaign I don't know what happened I just became irrational not thinking of the consequences I feel like being dead cause all I do is hurt others and I feel bad for the hurt I caused but I keep causing the hurt I hate myself
I honestly didn't realise the hurt I was causing him till it was too late I wish I told him how I was feeling and got help earlier I wish he asked me to get help at least told me I was hurting him
As someone who was called a narcissist by my ex who I hurt very much. I felt like I had to and it’s not that I wanted to because I didn’t know how else to end the relationship. I did not enjoy torturing him, nor was I even focused on the hurting him. I felt like I had to hurt him to not hurt him (if that makes sense). I didn’t want him to feel rejected so I made myself someone who he had to reject so he could hate me and not himself. But then again I’m not a diagnosed narc and many therapists have told me that I’m not. But I believe that narcissism is a line that anyone can easily cross. Generally I’m a kind, regulated person, but the legacy I left with this man is a bad one and I will forever be sorry about how I made him feel
Meeting somebody in therapy is not the same as iiving with them. I know a narcissist who was definitely an intentional bad actor. But she was always delighted when someone bought her poor-me act. She would have loved your channel.
@Maat TheCat - If what you say is true, and she would have loved my channel, then I hope she finds it. Lots of people find it helpful. 😊
*Sometimes I wonder if the lack of insight/awareness is like a type of anosognosia, like in mania, schizophrenia, dementia and brain injury where it can often be a main symptom inherent to the illness. In a way that's what Doc Ettensohn has said here about narcissism. Though apparently in those other disorders it is likely or even almost certainly created by neurological dysfunction, while in narcissism he describes interactions of psychological pathologies.
*I had the thought that inability to empathize in and of itself would result in a lack of insight and not *really* understanding the impacts of behaviors. Same with self centeredness.
*Dr. E. has very clearly contrasted "regular" vs. "malignant" narcissism in another video and unequivocally spelled out that these are very different patterns. Malignant is not simply an extreme narcissist, but one who is not able to contain their aggression, and has identified with their own childhood abusers and become like them. ( I know some people like this. The theory is highly plausible in my experience.) And malignancy can emerge episodically *or* be the usual mode. I think a lot of the differences of views and experiences around the awareness question stem from misunderstanding that these are two different disorders. (though is some cases occurring in one person) So people could be comparing apples and oranges. My thinking/experience is that malignant narcissists often *are* aware of what they're doing, and often *do choose* to do it anyway (with pleasure). Regular narcissists aren't, and don't, usually. The difference arises from the high aggression, the ego syntonic sadism, and the psychopathic traits that define the malignant.
I really appreciate your approach. I too have had issues with Dr Ramani’s stance often. It seems to have a biting, biased, bitter edge. I can understand where that might come from, as I’ve had many who had narcissistic traits, or full blown variations of NPD (and other cluster B) in my path…but it seems that she herself falls into a trap of some cognitive distortions and failing to fully appreciate the deep neuroscience, blind spots, that are intrinsic with the disorder.
Many people have ignorance to their own ignorance…however I’d say in mental illness it’s magnified.
Your approach is so aware, connecting the dots that most people fail to. You put succinctly many things that have come up in my mind, and added some too!
Thank you for a balanced, compassionate, empathetic, presentation 😊
I'm so relieved to have found your channel. I strongly suspect that a sibling of mine has NPD. When her abusive accusations became bizarre and obviously delusional, I realized something was very wrong. I researched narcissism on RUclips but their aggressive approach was ubiquitous. I've always suspected that unhappiness is behind misbehaviour. It was by coming to this understanding, after decoupling from taking the attacks personally, that I was able to recover greater acceptance of myself and take back power in my own personality. This made it easy to put boundaries in place and protect myself from further attacks through a conscious politeness, deflection and distraction. Our gurus come in many shapes and forms. Thank you for your authenticity and compassion.
Because mental illness "seems abstract" and can't be seen people feel more entitled to attack those who are affected by it. Also having NPD is a frightening thing to have that can lead to a cycle of repeated self destruction that makes them never able to relax. TLDR: They aren't having fun.
Yes, they know exactly what they are doing. That’s why when you see one, RUN!
NPD have a good grip on knowing their many manipulations and wrongs.
Yes it is of course some dysfunction whether abusive or too much praise and of course there are predispositions.
It’s a defence mechanism and it’s not easy infiltrated.
I grew up around narcissists and who they were outside the front door and behind it are 2 very different things.
I know someone with narcissistic personality disorder and he has been to every specialist in the land and is medicated.
There is and will never be change.
The person to whom you refer likely has multiple diagnoses. NPD is not typically treated with medication.
@@healnpd it’s a male and their is low grade depression and anxiety.
It is more so used as a relaxant.
This person was in therapy with someone who specialises in personality disorders, to no change. Indeed comorpidity is likely very likely yes.
@@healnpd he would be more on the covert side as such.
Particularly violent when threatened and so the meds help to take the edge off.
@@healnpd my mother was the same started therapy didn’t like what she heard and left and never went back. She knew when to abuse and when to turn on the charm for others.
Also highly allergic to the word sorry.
@@healnpd it’s very difficult to be empathetic when you suffered massive abuse at the hands of a narcissist. I’m dysfunctional and a recovering codependent but I never would abuse.
My mother was very happy too.
Interesting perspective. However, if narcissists didn’t know what they’re doing, why would they wait until get home to start torturing their victims? Why do they always have this “distorted perception of reality” behind closed doors? Why dont they “simply act” or have these “reflexes” in public? These “skewed perceptions” always happen when they can torture the victim without a single witness and that is precisely the reason why they want to isolate the victim from the rest of the world. Yes, they know! Everything they do is in some level intentional. Whoever’s suffered narcissistic abuse knows this really well.
I’ve replied to this rebuttal a few times elsewhere in the comments. I’ve pasted two of those replies below:
@Amber C - This video is not attempting to draw a black and white, all-or-nothing distinction when it comes to self-awareness. I am not making the claim that pwNPD have no idea what they are doing as though they were stumbling around in a dark room. There are many ways that we might talk about awareness of one’s actions. To use a crude analogy: five year-olds know that they are breaking a rule when they grab a cookie from the cookie jar when nobody is looking. But do they really understand why they shouldn’t do that? Is their rule-breaking a studied choice, or a muddled combination of incomplete understanding of rules, low control over their impulses, and age-appropriate short-sightedness? On one level, you could say “they waited until no one was looking, so they know what they are doing.” And, to some extent, you’d be correct. But you’d also be missing important nuance. To bring it back to NPD, most people with this disorder are relatively high functioning members of society. They have mostly mastered simple social behavior like sitting nicely in a fancy restaurant, being deferential to police officers, smiling and being polite to strangers at the store, etc. Just because someone can appropriately code switch in this basic way does NOT mean that they have a high level of insight into their behavior. They may still have distorted perceptions of their important relationships based on projection and other psychological mechanisms. They may have low impulse control - just enough to keep it together when others are around but not enough to cope with their strong feelings effectively. As with many forms of mental illness, the reality is a complicated mish-mash of limited self-awareness, compromised coping, contextual dysfunction, distorted perception, and dysregulated mood and behavior.
@col2959 - As I've said elsewhere, the point of this video is not to suggest that narcissists are completely unaware of their own behavior, as though they were stumbling around in a dark room. That would be absurd. The point is to emphasize that pathological narcissism is a mental illness, and mental illnesses impact perception. Perception influences behavior.
Basically, people with pathological narcissism and NPD often rely on a defense called splitting. Splitting creates separate silos or islands of perception. When in one self-state, the person may view themselves, others, circumstances, and relationships one way. When in a different self-state, they may have vastly different perceptions. Perception influences behavior. The self that relates to family members may be vastly different than the self that relates to a boss.
Just because someone can code switch and behave professionally toward a boss, or sit nicely at a fancy restaurant, doesn't exclude the possibility that they are mentally ill. Narcissists often project their unwanted qualities onto those around them. This is caused by underlying confusion in the personality between self and others. They are more likely to have this confusion when it comes to people with whom they are very close and comfortable. They are far less likely to have this confusion with a boss or stranger they are first meeting. They are likely to default to "professional" or "polite" communication with such a figure, even if they were moments ago in the throes of an angry tirade toward a family member.
Additionally, narcissists have impaired self-esteem. They rely on those around them to 'puff up' or improve their self-image. They accomplish this by ingratiating themselves toward those who have status or people that they admire. This often translates to flattering behavior toward a boss or someone with high status, while they may be dismissive or devaluing toward those who are close to them.
Thank you for taking the time to reply. I really appreciate that. I am new to your channel and don’t yet fully understand your views on this subject, but will definitely reflect on them. It’s always nice to see things through a different perspective.
The example with the child taking a forbiden cookie... 🍪 NPD is not 'taking the cookie'. He is throwing the cookie into your face, when no one is looking. 😂
What I have seen in all my years of dealing with narcissists is that the ones I have known were elevated as special and expected to be treated this way by every day. When I told my brothers to stop their mean actions and words they fought back to defend. Its not a mental illness, it is wicked. They do love what they are doing because when told it is not acceptable they become angry instead of curious, as they get worse. I do not believe they are unaware.
It is a mental illness, doesn't matter what you believe
I do feel bad he did that to you but not everyone with the disorder is like your brother. the DSM specifically left out the more vulnerable parts of the disorder in the criteria which is critical for understanding the disorder and makes it impossible to understand the borderline-functioning narcissists. narcissism has many different presentations, have you heard of Frank E. Yeomans? he has a lecture posted on RUclips where he describes how to treat narcissistic clients and how their brain works in more detail than this guy did here. Can a narcissist be self-aware they are being abusive? Yes, because abusive people can be in any mental disorder, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't care for anyone with NPD at all. there are higher rates of depression, higher rates of substance abuse, higher rates of having another cluster b personality disorder like histrionic or anti-social, higher rates of abuse happening in their childhoods, and even higher rates of lethal suicide!
the reason most narcissists deny they did anything wrong is due to black-and-white thinking, if they did something wrong that does not fit into their view of their ideal ego ( there is no separation between the ideal ego and the normal ego, if they want to do that then they have basically already done it. sure it can make them feel happy and confident but it makes them more sensitive to criticism since it breaks their sense of self. if that ideal ego is broken then they are nothing) and it ends up being true that they did something wrong then that means they are not perfect, if they are not perfect that means they are horrible, worthless, a monster, and waste of space, etc etc. people with NPD aren't good with extremely negative emotions like shame, anger, despair or fear so they will often project these feelings of shame, anger, fear unto others to keep themselves together.
fulfil
i think we should care for people who feel like they either have to dismiss, attack, or perform to others to have a sense of self, no? sure, they may seem stable due to this way of defending themselves, but most are isolated and unable to connect to anyone due to their fear of being not perfect and their impossible standards, towards others. why should we not care for these people?
@@lunarlunar9405 I get what you are saying however, I don't really care what the diagnostic criteria are or the definitions, I know a mean person when I see them and having been raised in it as a child and contended with it all my life from time to time I know when to remove them from my life for my own protection. As long as we remain with people with narcissistic tendencies our spiritual and emotional growth will be stunted. We must move on to become independent of them. Also the stress level causes physical problems, they must be avoided whether or not they have been diagnosed according to specific rules.
@@gwendolynwehage6336 i never said that we should rely on them, i dont think anyone should rely so heavily on another for their own sense of self in the first place since that usually leads to abuse. what i am saying is even if you cant deal with a narcissist and have to leave that doesnt make them people who cant get better or people who dont have a mental disorder, mental disorders arent this whole you either have the vitcim mental disorder or you have the abuser one.
what im saying is i do think someone can be a good person and have narcissism, its gonna take alot therapy almost all the time and alot of time but i dont think a diagnosis is the end all be all of someone morally wise. ive seen narcissists be self aware, be willing to listen to vitcims who were abused by narcissists and want to not let their narcissism control their entire life
im wary of people using the word narcissism so liberally, even if the dsm does not describe it right it is still a very very rare disorder. i dont think its safe to call every abuser a narcissist, i think its misunderstanding most abusers movitations and also ends up leading to narcissists not wanting to get treatment since that is a death sentence.
diana diamond treated a borderline narcissist paitent who was molseted by her father, i want people like this and even high functioning narcissists to get help and treating narcissism like it always means abuse wont solve anything in our society, if a narcissist is aware of being abusive and doesnt care then i do think its safe to avoid them since neither of us are therapists who can help them, but thats not the case with every single narcissist. heck, even avoiding a unself aware abusive narcissist is completely fine to me but what im asking here is not having to play therapist with every narcissist you meet, im asking for people to acknowledge this is a mental disorder.
sorry if it sounds like im justifing narcissists abusing others, im not. im just wishing people understood their framework of mind since for almost all of them, narcissism is the only cope they have for their problems. my mom has ptsd and she has said exteremly horrible things to me before because she is not truly in the conversation, shes arguring in what she thinks is happening in the conversation; alot of narcissists are like this too. i dont expect your average joe to be able to deal with most narcissists, but i dont want people to completely misunderstand why the people in the disorder are the way that they are. alot of people with mental disorders are abusive or toxic and i feel like only acknowledging this fact with a few mental disorders that are hated by the media is very offputting. you dont have to deal and stay with a bad person, but i think someone can be a good person and have narcissism, they just need therapists who actually can treat them
I agree lunarlunar, that people can change but only if Christ changes them on the inside. People can only change their behavior but if there is not a heart change on the inside they will slip back into their old selves. Even if someone is able to change behavior on the outside for a lifetime they will still not go to heaven without Christ. I have seen some people with narcissistic tendencies change because Christ changed them but full-blown narcissists usually do not change because it is too difficult to keep up a pretense when the heart has not been changed by Christ.
Yes! Someone who's normal abt npd and doesn't paint us as horrible abusers!! 💖💖💖 I genuinely enjoy having someone who doesn't demonize us, i appreciate ppl like u!
Dr Ettensohn, I would like to thank you for making the topic crystal clear. Everyone in my family was a narcissist. Your compassion also makes the information easy to deal with.
Yes, they are well aware of their evils, and the affect that it has on their targets.
I really appreciate this video. I am starting to believe my experience strongly aligns with vulnerable narcissism. I hate it, and I hate myself for not developing better coping mechanisms in response to trauma. I just want to do and be better without falling into these “trap” thoughts that distort reality around me. I’m so so tired and I want to feel loved because I’ve actually earned it, not because I’ve demanded it.
In my experience with one narcissist yes he knew exactly what he was doing too bad for him I learn quick
Very refreshing to hear a more emphatic take on narcissism, I'm more used to dig in the "darker" videos.
It would be soooooo interesting to see you, Dr Ramani, Richard Grannon and Prof Sam Vaknin meet and have a long conversation about NPD!!🤩
And Dr Daniel Fox.
The whole thing about EVIL is philosophical to me: I think evil do exist. Without love there's no hate, without good theres no evil etc...☯️
Isn't an evil person, evil based on the action and deeds? No one is sitting around and being the devil based on nothing I guess. An evil thought is pretty harmless, because it doesn't hurt anyone. An evil deed is much more evil. Sometimes it comes from believed "good place", sometimes from a more sadistic place. A hurtful word or violence can be many different things, in different scenarios. I think REVEVENGE is the perfect example of that; It's considered bad, but it can sometimes be a "good" thing to bring justice. You do something very bad and end up in prison. Thats kind of society's revenge. Or someone punching back the bully is understandable. Eye for an eye. But no doubt about that hate inherit hate and and love brings more love. ONE LOVE u know!
Bad is bad, but if o person knows he/she is hurting someone by purpose, just for no other reason than joy or happines (martial arts not included), that's in my humble opinion much more evil than if the person doesn't understand that he/she hurt someone, because the person feel bad and act on emotions without thinking how that effects others.
For an example; if someone told me "you're a nerd" I wouldn't be offended by the nerd-part, because maybebaby I am a nerd and love it...
But if the person said that in a very condescending way, and wanted to put me down and hurt me by purpose, just to be able to stand tall by him/her self, it would offend me AND make the person more evil. Hurtful things doesn't always come from sadistic hate tho. Sometimes the person might be scared, is hurt themselves, or bad at jokes.
The big question is; who do you have more empathy for, the abuser or the victim?
Because the abuser might be going thrue hell and been a victim back in the days. It's important to understand that we can feel sorry for both, if we look at things separately. Just because someone had a terrible life doesn't mean it's right to injure another, but it might be an explanation for where behaviours comes from.
If you've been a victim of narcissistic abuse, its totally understandable to not want to hear a bunch of pity about the abuser. But if you work with helping mentally I'll people to be happier and act better, you might.🦄
The part where others said that Narcs enjoy torturing you is very true. I experienced it myself. Ive seen those smirks many times. Its like living with a demon. A covert Narcissist is like a demon with an angel mask.
I understand what you mean in this video. Clearly, you havent lived with one. And I wish you will never experience what we experienced growing up with both overt & covert Narcs. My Mom, brother and sister.
Im not living with them anymore. Im living my life. Im healing.
I agree. However I think they don't always know what they do. Sometimes it may be an impulsive defense, other times it is deliberate torture.
No such thing as a Covert Narcissist. Covert and Overt are presentations of grandiosity, but within the same Narcissist. If you’re seeing a covert presentation, that means he/she is overtly vulnerable, quiet, anxious, empty etc, but covertly harboring feelings of grandiosity.
Also; NPD has a high genetic component and is passed on through abuse and neglect. If your family is filled with Narcissists, you would be one too. And a good rule of thumb is, NPD effects between 0.5% of the population, up to 4%. So, like 1 in every 200 people. So if you have multiple “narcissists” in your life, especially outside of your family; that’s statistically impossible and you’re probably the problem. Doesn’t mean you’re a narcissist, could just mean you’re hyper vigilant. It’s a ptsd response. Look it up.
And to say, “you’ve never lived with a narc” to a man who has a phd and specializes in NPD, is dumb. His opinion is probably that you never met a real narcissist before 😂 Or if you have, you thought they were bipolar. Also, you’re wrong because he has had a relationship with a Narcissist, he just never specified what. Could be a sibling, an ex, a mother, etc. It was that relationship that made him want to specialize in it because there’s so much disinformation about it on the internet
@@brandonmcalpin9228 genuine question, what are you getting out of invalidating other's experiences? Unless you're a diagnosed narcissists and try to clear up your image, you shouldn't be that harsh with people who lived thought this.
If so many say they experienced actual torture, they did. Period.
@@alex-bc2jh Idk what part is invalidating. I’m pretty sure I didn’t invalidate anyone’s experience. I called the person out for essentially acting like she knows better than a man who has a masters degree and specializes in NPD. And I gave statistics on the rarity of NPD. It’s like 1 in 200 people. Facts shouldn’t be invalidating. Nobody said you or anyone else wasn’t abused. Although, there are many of those too but they’re easy to spot. They attack people and start name calling. Lol. But I digress. Abuse is abuse, doesn’t matter who did it. This channel is about removing the stigma from a mental illness that has been dragged through the dirt and mud over the past decade or so, but every mental illness had its turn I suppose. Schizophrenia was like that at first. Bipolar. Multiple Personalities(DID) to an extent, BPD and now NPD. I don’t think any other mental illness had it this bad though, sheesh.
My family & extended family too mate. I’m right in the middle of a malice/smear campaign because I realised my Sister is Chief Narc.
You did the right thing by moving away, it looks like I may have to do the same once my Mum’s passed. My health is declining rapidly & I now know the cause. Narc’s keep you in such stress that you can’t physically or mentally heal.
It’s a living Hell.
Good luck to you, glad you’re free.
I understand what you are saying about them having a mental disorder, it absolutely is, I agree. I’ve dealt with NPD for a period of more than 3 years, and the experience was a horrendous. The environment that the person created was completely toxic. It left myself and other people struggling daily, losing sleep, and having 24/7 anxiety. Can’t event describe it properly. That person made it hell for everyone around. Constant gaslighting, manipulation and just plain lying. I know it’s a disorder, but by dealing with this for a period of time… Its extremely hard to have any sympathy for them unfortunately.
Is it okay to say here that I saw how the relevant person in my life would at times ceaselessly and intensely provoke me as long as I remained calm, and when I would finally display great upset, I could see him instantly relax, like he had successfully completed a hard and important project.
What you seem to be saying here is that, unlike "normal" people who are capable of malicious actions, narcissists are not capable of engaging in intentionally malicious behavior.
I understand your desire to de-demonize these people, but I can assure you that in my case, the person of whom I speak behaved in a very calculated, cruel way over several years. Hence, he knew WHAT he was doing, if not exactly WHY.
Sure, if that’s your experience. PwNPD can be very interpersonally provocative. They can also be emotionally coercive. There is a phenomenon called projective identification that involves projecting a feeling onto someone and treating them in such a way that it provokes an identification with the projected feeling in the person. For example, someone might project their own angry feelings onto you and then treat you like you are angry with them until you actually become angry. Some version of this occurs in many personality disorders.
@@healnpd believe me, I want to believe the best about him even to this day, seven years after the end. I believe he was wounded as a child. I was also seriously wounded as a child by several people with narcissistic traits, but I would never be capable of doing such harm to another person as he did to me. I think that is why I was so confused in the relationship for so long.
Thanks for your videos, and thanks for your reply. There are so many broken people, including myself. It is very sad and discouraging.
I didn’t see your whole first comment, just the first paragraph. To respond to the rest of your comment, I do not mean to imply that pwNPD are not capable of malicious behavior, merely that perception of the circumstances is often distorted such that they incorrectly believe aggressive or devaluing behavior is warranted. They may also misperceive their own intentions or the consequences of their behaviors in such a way that the actual effects are minimized or denied.
@@healnpd after I left, the ensuing years gave me time to remember and reflect and process. I do think he believed his cruelty was warranted. But I must ask...what kind of person can think that persistent, long-term cruelty toward another human being is "warranted?" The kind of person that doesn't want to be the one who leaves, but wants to be left, perhaps? There could have been a few different motives regarding that particular.
As far as misperceiving his own intentions or the consequences, I feel sure that his intentions were clear to himself. I think he knew he was working to discard me. Some of the final consequences were not, however, what he had aimed for, I think. He did not escape unscathed.
A.Nightingale,
I read your comment three times. That guy was simply bullying you. So picture two siblings. The bully is finished with his homework, the brother is not. They’re both sitting at the table. The bully sees you quietly working at your homework. He’s bored. He’s also accustomed to beating you physically five times a day because it gives him sadistic pleasure. It makes him feel bigger inside and gives him a dopamine hit. So he’s bored and begins to jolt the table to distract your concentration. You say, stop it, knock it off! He laughs and keeps doing it. It turns into a physical fight, on the floor.
Now, this is what these sadists would really love to do. These types I call narcissist/psychopaths. They have a sadistic bent to them. So what happens to them is that they grow up and learn that that’s assault and they can go to jail. So they don’t beat you physically no more, they do it mentally. So your boyfriend was trying to get a rise out of you.
They also, often times need to, “ win “ or gain control to get their way and will deliberately use tactics to those ends. Sometimes they will want to punish you for not doing what they want. So they can be deliberate.
Dr. Ettensohn wrote you a comment. I don’t understand what he is talking about but I know that he’s got a video on it. I only know this small amount about projection. I can use my sister as an example. She always freaked out on, time. She had the need to hurry up and do what you need to do in life to become successful like college, like buy a house by the age of thirty and not to waste time but diligently work to gain those goals. Well she was feeling like a looser inside. She was feeling stressed out that time was passing her by and she wasn’t meeting these goals. So this is how she projected onto me. She would berate me saying, don’t you want to go to college? Don’t you want to make something of yourself? You’re just a looser, don’t you want to stop being a looser? She kept saying, look at the time, look at the time! Getting me all anxious. After about three experiences of this, I finally said, those aren’t my goals. That’s not my concern. Quit making me stress over the clock ticking. So she stopped projecting ( this isn’t even severe projection. It might not even count as projection so I’m going to have to give another example ) that onto me but would often just outwardly vocalize her worry about time passing by and it would stress me out.
So here’s a better example of projection. I had a male acquaintance friend who thought he was ugly. I did not know him that well so I stayed silent. My point is he was getting sulky. So then he says something to me that sounds like something his mother would say to him. So I’ll just say, she kept telling him, you’re no good, but that’s not what he said, I can’t remember what he said. It was something that was not true to me. Ok how about a thief. That’s not true to me. It was like he was repeating what his mother said to him but accusing me of it. That’s your classic projection. Usually you get accused of something that’s not you, it’s not your character and now you have to defend yourself. So typically when they’re projecting, they’re getting something off of their chest and putting it onto you. Then they get a release from it. They feel better. But just for that moment, it doesn’t last. It’s a maladaptive way to deal with inner emotions that they can’t get rid of so they accuse you of it, watch your reaction of defense and pain and your pain makes them feel better. That’s a type of sadism. So, my sister hardly ever did it until I found out what narcissism was and started to challenge her. She used her own maladaptive, “ play book” ways as a tool to hurt me.
I read up on projection once. Everybody does it. So say you’re a good person and you believe in good and expect the world to be good so when you go out on a walk and you say hello to a passer-by you are comfortable in your environment. You expect the other person to be good and so project goodness out of you and onto him. If you were paranoid you might show paranoid behavior which may project onto the stranger and the stranger may decide... nope that’s not working it’s gotta be more. You gotta do something to make that person feel paranoid. Do you see how hard it is for a normal person to do something like this? I can’t even hardly come up with an example. So you don’t even have to feel exactly what they feel, you just have to feel disturbed. ( actually rereading this I can come up with how it works. I feel good. I give a nice smile and hello to the passer-by, they may absorb that good cheer and feel it and happily give it back. I have this feeling that I still don’t get to )
Well there’s another aspect to it, lol. Apparently the things that they accuse you of, is the things they are inside. That just blows my mind because my sister recently did this and I wouldn’t think that she was those things. She puts on a mask of sanity. But, one time, at age 48 she told me that she had an epiphany. That she was evil inside. I laughed. I thought she was joking. She talked about it some more and I just laughed. She said, no, seriously. So I begged her not to be evil. There was more to the conversation but basically she felt that she should live up to her true nature. So god only knows what that means, lol.
I know she’s sadistic. I know that’s in her nature. But she seems normal though too.
So Dr. Ettensohn said that your boyfriend was projecting onto you. But in a way that I don’t know about. It seemed like Dr. Ettensohn was saying that it was a way for your boyfriend to have a personality exchange with you. That’s too deep for my understanding.
Sometimes they don’t like your calmness. They don’t like it that you’re in peace. I’ve also heard that they like chaos. And so will deliberately cause chaos.
Sorry I wrote so much. I guess I’m in the mood. Maybe you can look back at that memory and think if something else was going on like maybe a fight from the night before or you made him mad the day before and he’s still agitated over it and messing with you.
I'm convinced that most pathological narcissists do in fact know what they are doing and can control their behavior under certain circumstances; but I agree that their perception is distorted and that they often lack full control or awareness of why they are doing what they're doing.
Ok, I'll accept the scolding that my sympathy for the Narcissist's plight could be better. Still, my belief that having a horrible childhood combined with the genetic predisposition giving rise to an honest-to-goodness, genuine, authentic bonafide "mental illness" does not give one license to be mercilessly cruel to other people. The square peg that simply cannot fit into the round hole of narcissist-apologist's explanations is that they can flip it on and off at will. A narcissist can be engaged in Defcon 1 Level abuse of someone and upon realizing they are being recorded or observed from an outside party, FLIP their tactic immediately. They instantly, and quite miraculously turn into the innocent victim of circumstance... just a sweet, misunderstood kitten. If narcissistic rage, or splitting, or devaluing, or lack of empathy, or lack of self- awareness was really just the byproduct of a defense mechanism, then how are they able to suddenly "act normal" in the blink of an eye? To me, it means they are keenly aware that what they are doing is wrong, unacceptable and abusive and they can stop doing it if they really wanted to. The problem is: they don't.
Precisely ! Hopefully the good Doctor, who most likely has very limited real life experience with NPD , gives this indisputable truth deep consideration and reevaluate his interesting position
What they are doing they know can be perceived as wrong. However, in their mind they don't believe it's wrong because they feel entitled and feel they are justly punishing you. In their minds whenever you say truths that shatter their delusions, they perceive as intentional attack to hurt them. Whether your statements are true or false is irrelevant because they are convinced you actual intention was simply to make them feel bad. In short, they are delusional.
Yes.
They know exactly what they are doing. It is all quite deliberate, and they revel in it.
@glenbateman5960 - You could learn a lot from this channel. I’m glad you are here. 🙂
When someone is cheating on their partner, they know very well what they are doing. They just don't care. They care however about whether they are found out, and whether they lose the image that they present in the public. Again, there is a distinction between cognitive empathy and emotional empathy. It's not that they operate exclusively under the influence of forces that are outside of their awareness. Presenting the NPD's as completely oblivious and anaware is not an accurate depiction. Splitting half of their experience, is not a wholesome depiction.
@athinav.5995 - As has been clarified multiple times in these comments, no one is presenting pwNPD as “completely oblivious.” The video title places quotes around “know what they’re doing” for a reason. It is a response to the argument that pwNPD *always* know the harm caused by their actions - that they can see it just as clearly as you and that they do it *intentionally* to cause harm because they are sadistic. This video makes the uncontroversial argument that people with mental illnesses are mentally ill. Mental illness causes distortions in perceptions, thoughts, and images of the self and other people. It causes changes in behavior that are disruptive to the person and those around them. That’s what mental illness means. You can’t have mental illness without accompanying mental changes and distortions. It’s why NPD is a mental illness and not just a collection of unlikable or aggressive traits as many here seem to believe.
@@healnpd
The NPDs might be/are mentally ill.
However some of them (covert ones?) can be behind the closed doors malignant, hurtfull, almost evil, by doing planned and deliberate harm by let say omision, passive agressive deeds, manipulations, witholding information, deliberately creating chaos and confusion, destroying other person's items 'by mistake', devaluation, witholding care, help and compassion when the other person is ill, smear campaigns, lying, ... It’s an unhuman mess to live with such NPD person, who is regarded as 'nice' by the outside world.
Not all NPD's are 'evil'. Some however are deliberatelyvery very harmful to the 'loved ones'.
My experience was that the grandiose one did a loooot of harm to his family, couse he could not help himself... but the covert one was (covertly) deliberately hurtfull, passive agressive and mean. You can not 'forgive' the deliberate malevolence...
If paying attention to them, will notice they are sad when someone is happy and happy when someone is sad. This should give an insight into what they are really about
Envy is a central affect in pathological narcissism and NPD. The individual often envies the happiness, togetherness, or richness of other people’s lives. They strive to be the center of attention because of preoccupations with self-worth.
@@healnpd What about the gaslighting tactics? Those are obviously strategies for getting power/control/the upper hand in any situation and have nothing to do with lack of self-worth. They like to play the victim card, but the real goal is to deprive those they pray upon of joy, self-esteem and everything they like, except for the narc, of course. And after they reach this goal and destroy that person's life , they discard it also in order to complete theirs evil plan. There are so many documented cases when people are discarded after 30 years and they can barely pick up the pieces of theirs lives. In my opinion, these narcs are lucid criminals of humanity, they know exactly what buttons to push in order to maximise theirs selfish gains and reduce the others to zero .
I made a video discussing gaslighting.
@@healnpd Whom we defend may backfire at us
I’m not aware of defending anyone. I’m interested in disseminating accurate information and realistic portrayals of a mental illness. To the extent that the perception of narcissism is warped and skewed by misleading and stigmatizing information online, my content probably seems like a defense or apology for the inexcusable. But that’s only because people are so misinformed about what pathological narcissism actually is. I am careful to point out that it sometimes involves mistreatment and abusive treatment of others. I also advise all persons (those with NPD included), to take personal responsibility for their actions and their mental health.
@Heal NPD: I think it's great that you provide reasonable and non radicalized view of narcissism and its pathologies.
I'd like to make a desideratum for future videos: would it be possible that you go more in depth about the vulnerable aspects of narcissistic pathology (more, or less, severe)?
For example: failure to launch, road blocks, procrastination, avoidance, social phobia, maladaptive daydreaming, Walter Mitty types etc etc. - I'm not saying all these things are necessarily caused by narcissism, but I suspect they are very related to it. Also, these things would go against the stereotype of a narcissist as somebody who hurts other people: I think it's possible for someone to have huge narcissistic conflicts and at the same time to not hurt anybody (but himself/herself).
(A related question: how does the psychodynamic perspective view avoidant personality and social phobia/anxiety? Are they considered the same thing as vulnerable narcissism or is there a distinction? *Edit:* I've now seen that there's already a video of yours about social anxiety and npd)
Another desideratum: narcissism and the sense of time. There is an article by Otto Kernberg which talks about the perception of time in persons with narcissistic pathology.
Thank you again for the interesting information that you provide!
I have two comments in one.
- it was only 27 years after leaving the pwNPD and having a third great awakening where more hidden information, a final motherlode of pain followed by relief, was revealed to me about that marriage that I finally understood it was narcissism. As a victim I found the bulk of other approaches a big help as catalysts and pattern revealers, but see their inherent limitations. You introduce a new different vocabulary with terms like splitting. When my pain subsided and through the multiple betrayals I could see the rough outlines of the disorder and got occasional compassionate humanistic glimpses over the past three decades, of the pwNPD as a victim too. Let’s face it: if a highly educated pwNPD is having 25 different sex partners over eight years of marriage, many risky one-offs with strangers, and builds and maintains a continuous harem of lovers, and is now into their fourth marriage the prior three following the same NPD template, something is seriously wrong. You explain NPD with forensic clarity not demonization. So thank you.
- The child to my marriage and their other children are tied to the pwNPD for life, unlike me. I have moved on. They cannot or maybe should not use the other popular resources because of their vilification of the parent wNPD. The now grown children have an ongoing albeit troubled relationship, it is their possession, part of their life. Not mine. Your work provides an avenue for them to understand what the hell is going on, maybe even to help break the cycle of NPD succession (?), but does that without being destructive or disrespectful. In your material, children of pwNPD now have a proper resource for building that understanding without destroying the parent- child relationship.
There are two profound realizations that I have come to accept. Both can exist side by side while appearing to sound mutually exclusive:
1) toxic/narcissistic personalities are manifestations of internal trauma for which the sufferer is ill equipped to manage or mitigate. Generally, it isn't a behavior that can be controlled.
2) In the wake of a toxic person's journey is a profound trail of sorrow, tears and blood. To suggest they cannot see it cannot be construed to infer they cannot be held responsible.
I've seen many of the channels, both compassionate and derisive. Though both are potentially refreshing - depending on the spirit of the content creator - I'm still left a bit less than satisfied. This channel included.
Re 1), it can't be controlled if they aren't aware of what they dealing w/. I'm sure that's why you qualified w/ "generally". I think you're right on 2) as well. People are ultimately responsible for their actions, and they can learn to cope better.
I did not find the derisive ones satisfying at all. It helped a bit in the beginning to feel validated for what I went through w/ them, but it's too unhealthy to see myself as a victim. I find this kind of channel much more refreshing. I knew there had to be a better viewpoint than the usual Dr. Ramani stance.
What is it that you are looking for if you find neither satisfying? I can understand not wanting to go back to a place where you enable them to hurt you some more because of misplaced compassion. That's not what a channel like this leads me to.
Amen. I’d bet if they were held accountable a few times, it would decrease their tendency to lose control.
@@nowyouknowrealestate5703 I don't know what the key in therapy is to getting them to take accountability? I've heard it relies on a trusting relationship w/ their therapist. NPD does seem to be a disorder based on not being able to trust, so they have all these harmful defense mechanisms. That's if I'm starting to understand even the basics of what is at the root of it.
@@saintejeannedarc9460'm sorry it has taken over a month to see your comment. Your thoughts gave me pause to reflect upon mine. We don't disagree, though we see the same thing from two different lenses.
Before I answer your question, I'll share something I learned from experience. When I was studying Japanese tea ceremony, my teacher shared a thought with me that was very profound and life altering...
"The most difficult thing to master is simplicity..."
That's the ballgame. Right there. Simplicity.
When we become expert at things, we have a tendency to shroud ourselves in nomenclature and other esoteric fare. Such things, while they validate and project our expertise and wisdom, create distance between the examiner and the phenomena being examined.
So it is with clinicians, of which this channel's creator asserts himself as being.
I listened to this video again, to see if I felt the same way as I did when I originally commented. I did notice some slight nuanced shifts in how I experienced this content. It sounded far more cogent that before - maybe that has to do with the clarity I gained over time. That said, I still feel the creator being a bit distant from the problem on the ground.
I do feel that I have a richer understanding of the phenomenon of NPD. But I don't feel this content advances any meaningful sense of "oneness" between myself and the cluster b phenomenon I am exploring. The complexity - or lack of simplicity - maintains a bit of separation. This is less than satisfying for me.
Ironically, the most significant shift I experienced watching cluster b content online came while watching Sam Vaknin's presentation of the false self and shared fantasy. That's when I could truly feel compassion and empathy for the internal struggle faced by sufferers of cluster b disorders.
And Vaknin is an unadulterated charlatan, IMHO!!! But I guess it's kinda like the principle of the hacker being the best person to set up your online security infrastructure LOL 🤣
@@BillRWare We certainly don't want to achieve any sort of oneness w/ Cluster B problems, that's for sure. If have had to deal w/ someone closely who has it, and it's left us devastated, then finding some empathy for the person w/ the disorder can help us to not take it so personally. It can soften the sting.
If you found a breakthrough byway of Sam Vaknin, then so be it. I find him very obtuse and convoluted. He's obviously bright, but keeps things far more complicate than they need to be. I've never gotten any clarity from him myself, but some do. How do you find him a charlatan? He does seem to have the disorder.
Good morning and first I like to say my apologies for not addressing you by your name. I’ve been thinking this all along and I have been watching many videos that seem to be educational but deep down inside the advice given wouldn’t sit well all the time. I’d much rather prefer going down this road anything that could be of forgiving and understanding nature. Thank you for confirming what I have been feeling for so long and for validating that people need empathy and compassion to help this disorder. Thank you
You're welcome. Thanks for watching. :)
Wow well said. Been married to one for 27years I always felt his pain. To make a long story short the worse thing is silence treatment I have to go to others to talk and communicate.
Thank you for your clear and objective view on the subject matter. We must not demonize individuals with a personality disorder. We must step back and realize that these individuals have a pathological disorder that has arrested their ability to develop and healthy long lasting relationships. Please do grieve the pain that was caused to you by the narcissist. Absolutely instill boundaries that protect you from any and all individuals who are suffering from a psychological disorder. But also, we must have the ability to step back from our subjective emotional experience and realize that these individuals aren’t skipping into the sunset happily, there deeply troubled and unhappy… give yourself time to grieve, once your emotions subside, you can go back into the relationship and truly see their glaring limitations. It would have played out this way with you if anyone else. They self sabotage… they’re living their lives in a defensive stance, unable to breathe, see, and feel… a life of perpetual dissatisfaction and discontentment… I was in a relationship with a narcissist for 4 1/2 years… And truly the only way I was able to let go as compassion…
Very good, like all other deadly diseases I'll stay vigilant as to keep myself at low risk.
That includes the disease of the Narcissist.
I can relate to, and hang out with the person with HIV/AIDS, Cancer etc.
Not the Narcissist.
They can have that alone to themselves.
I think I’ve been watching the wrong channels as they have portrayed people with mental health disorders as evil. Your RUclips channel, however, has a sympathetic and realistic understanding of this disorder. I can now see that NPD and the other related disorders are not people being deliberately evil. Thank you for your insight.
They do it on purpose as when made aware, they don’t cease.
A Good Example: I am a hard working Nurse in ER, and my brother who suffers from narcissism decided to blow up my phone and call me while I was in the middle of the shift. No, it was not an emergancy, no it wasn’t important either. He tried to pick a fight with me that moment over politics and religion! I immediately asked him if there was an emergency and he said: “Quit trying to ignore me, you are very wrong about these issues, and it’s time you get help!” I was in such disbelief that he had tried to ruin my mood and take away my peace! I had to block him for the entire day! Yes they know what they’re doing but they have no sense of respect for others and their time.
The toxic behaviors of someone with NPD are never excusable towards someone else just because their "perceptions" are "scewed" or "distorted." Just like if someone was driving while under the influence of alcohol, they too must be accountable for the consequences of their actions and/or suffer the consequences whether they were/are cognizant of what they are doing...
Explaining something is not excusing it. People do act according to their perceptions. And while there are no excuses, there are also no solution to it except for other people on the receiving hand to have enough awareness and sense of self ( not a distorted idea that they are not worth any better) to distance themselves from anyone they deem abusive.
In this video it is literally stated that you should leave people with distorted views, cut them out of your life and say no. But sure, ignore those parts completely and focus on complaining.
Talking about perception, distortion etc. ... 😂
Oh and never forget: humans are cruel, selfish and sadistic WITHOUT being a narcissist. 😌
He never said excuse anyone or anything. He broke everything down point by point however some have selective hearing .
I was raised by a single mother with BPD and have dealt with narcissistic siblings and coworkers. I myself have been diagnosed with CPTSD (from childhood trauma), Major Depressive Disorder and Anxiety. I’m spending a small fortune on medication to keep myself functioning without breaking down. I’d like to offer a counter-thought to the information expressed in this video.
The idea that narcissists have no control over their impulses seems to contradict my personal experience that outside in public or in front of upper management, these individuals somehow - amazingly - gain the ability to control themselves. But once the door was closed, I as a small child was subjected to horrific abuse. Do you understand what I’m saying?
The people that you dismissively but amicably refer to as “lay-persons”, many like me are REAL victims from abuse that have to now deal with lifelong consequences.
Think about if a person rapes or kills someone you love, and a pedantic, gentle-voiced “expert” appears and talks more about how the perpetrators are just mentally ill and can’t help themselves.
Then ask yourself how you’d feel listening to him after suffering the results of their actions. But aren’t rapists and killers and molesters just suffering from some mental disorder? Should we thereby dismiss their actions because “they just can’t control themselves” and tell the victims to get therapy, learn to set boundaries and stop persecuting their abusers? Is that what you’re arguing?
At what point does a grown adult not have to take responsibility/accountability for damage they do? And when is it inappropriate to tell victims that their abusers just can’t help themselves?
Frankly, I think you should change your approach. I appreciate that you’re a studied doctor and trying to help, but you’re doing a lot of harm. You’re not adequately addressing the potentially lifelong damage narcissists can cause innocent victims of their violence. It’s as if you’re excusing their actions, even if this might not be your intention.
And for us victims, you’re being painfully triggering. 😑
I personally am not harmed by this expert. I like to look at all sides as, I assume, everyone else here does or they wouldn’t be here. But I concur wholeheartedly with disagreeing that “they don’t know or can’t control what they are doing.”
Not only do they control it so well not to do it in front of authority figures, or in a social setting, or with someone they are trying to win over; but they also are able to flip the scenario and say that you actually did or said that very thing to them! I used to live in the mentality “she can’t help it.” Then I realized, they not only CAN help it, but they also INTENTIONALLY use it to control and manipulate those others who are around. Quite honestly, it’s nothing short of evil. If I had come to my senses before now, one I dealt with for 54 years would be in jail because some of what was done was criminal.
Wow! Just typing this response has fired me up. They know precisely what they are doing is evil. They choose who and when to unleash it on so they will not be held accountable by the law, society, family members or authority figures. Evil.
Perhaps this expert has never seen a good one and the ones he’s treated has truly been mental cases who acted out in front of everyone.
@@nowyouknowrealestate5703 Right, the one’s I’ve come across are super in control of just how they abuse select people behind the scenes and more select people all the time as well over and over and over, they know they can likely get away with mentally etc abusing😹🔮🕵🏻♀️Might even take an extremely great psychic to entirely unmask them and their shit🤣🤷♀️✅🥳
It takes being a long term victim of somebody with NPD, then learning about NPD for the first time, your own personal co-dependency’s, the horrors of financial damage they cause, years of family law court battles, and the love heartbreak, to truly understand these monsters. It may be a mental disorder, but it’s not enough of an excuse. They know exactly the wicked, devilish things that they do. The average therapist or mental health expert is no match.
As a person with NPD disorder I must ask why you attribute all your childhood injury to NPD, when you said that your mom had BPD? They're two separate diagnosis.
Also, your siblings have been officially diagnosed by a therapist as to having NPD? Or you guess that's their disorder?
I ask this because many people attribute NPD to anybody with mental health issues, who registers high on narcissistic tenancies or anyone with malignant behaviour.
What's incredibly triggering for sufferers of NPD is the vast swathe of pop culture, social media 'gurus' who make big coin off people who've been victimised by mentally ill people and who blanket label them all as NPD sufferers. This whole area needs strict regulating.
This channel actually speaks facts and is so helpful for us NPD sufferers, we can learn, manage and heal in a space where nobody is gaslighting us by telling us that we're responsible for all the evils of the world.
I hope you find healing and peace and I also hope you learn here how this disorder is also an early infancy trauma response with many sufferers who don't leave trails of destruction within society.
@tommywhite4553
Maybe you’d be doing better in your life is you weren’t wallowing in your own victimhood, watching RUclips videos about NPD and writing paragraphs on why someone who’s considered an expert is wrong and you - a guy who grew up with UNDIAGNOSED narcissistic family members. My mum was also diagnosed with BPD and she a lovely albeit unstable care giver.
Excellent videos! I have been Verbally and Emotionally abused by my Narcissistic husband for 24 years, but I completely understand, the fact that you explain why things are happening and I completely believe you are accurate! thank you!❤
my opinion is people with covert abuse know how to hide there abuse and its not just physical its emotional and they know how to hurt you cause they can hurt you and get away with it cause they play the victim want to know how to spot them look for some one crying with no tears
Thanks for that information. Very helpful to me. I have difficulty setting boundaries with these people in my life
You’re welcome!
I like the hot potato analogy in your book, helped me alot in understanding interactions with people with NPD.
I really like your video and I agree that NPD is an illness. My narc was never happy and always upset with me. He once said after I filed for divorce and took him back that I had to except hime as he was because he was unable to change. It floored me
This video makes me think that the people who I thought to be narcissistic, are actually just assholes, because they definitely seem to be aware of what they are doing!!!
😂😂😂 yep! Right there with you. Mine controlled it so much that no one believed me for years. Too bad there wasn’t cell phones for recordings until the last decade.
Exactly. You can totally be a sadist and self centered WITHOUT being a narcissist.😊
People just love simple, misplaced labels.😅
I am a child of a narcissist , also I have encountered a few others ... all of them
seem to take great pride in being an asshole and endeavor to be best that they
can .... lthey also had to crash parties , as they were never invited ... garce
Hi man thank you for the video nice to hear a honest professional voice on this, its really easy to go for the simple hate
Excellent, fair, and firm response to this new development on your channel. I wish there were more sites like yours. Recently I’ve been watching more self-aware pwNPDs’ channels on RUclips, and even *they* can be harsh towards narcissists (which isn’t surprising, I suppose, but still).
Thanks for your feedback.
I love this channel ❤❤ I don't enjoy it when I hurt others on the contrary. And to my experience in that moment - when someone says something to tricker my inner child, I react quicker than I want to, usually in a verbal angry reaction. The splitting part is also familiar but it's a deeply and unhealthy coping mechanism that I learned at home and in my family - I try not to but it does happen..
The beeing aware part - I know afterwards what I've done and can apoligize but my inner dialog just keeps bashing and repeating the issue over and over.. Yoga, meditation and getting fresh air are things I can do to release some of the hurt and anger..
Thank you for beeing you Doc ❤
I spent 18 years in a relationship with someone diagnosed with NPD.
He may not have been aware of everything he was doing,but he was aware enough to isolate me from friends and family
Deprive me of sleep and gaslight me until I nearly fully believed I was responsible for everything bad happening in the relationship.
I can grasp that they have mental illness,I can understand they are hurting,what I will never understand is how that in anyway gives them a right to minimize,diminish and degrade another human being.
Do I think people with NPD are demons,no.
Do I think people with NPD regret what they do to those close to them....not for a New York minute.
Their maladaptive methods may be wrought of pain and confusion,but the pain and confusion they bring down to others is nearly unforgivable,but for my own sake I will work on forgiveness so I can move on.
Hi Dr Ettensohn, could you possibly do a video about the true self in pwNPD? Do you believe there isn’t a true self, or is the true self the tortured/ neglected child? Also ways we can develop a healthier, adult personality or self. I do have a voice of reason and a voice which does seem to be speaking from a place of more clarity, am curious if this is the true self…it is often over ridden by other parts however. Thanks for the great content, cannot describe how much you’re helping.
Not a bad idea for a future episode!
I appreciate your well-balanced presentation so much! Thank you - this is so rare nowadays. What you say meets exactly what I felt in the relationship with an NPD-Person. So much suffering and so little insight. A heavy tragedy to love somebody like that, I can tell. I had to leave him, but I cannot hate him.
Hello Dr. Ettensohn. I am new to your channel and enjoying the educational videos very much. I appreciate your work. I am having trouble with this video not because I don't understand that the NPD individual is mentally ill and often unaware of their behavior but a recent experience has left me very confused. I agree that the grandiose behavior and even the rages I dealt with from this person were just normal for her and she did seem completely unaware of the gravity of her actions. But when I decided to try and go no contact which was impossible because we are both heavily involved in the same community this person has actively pursued me in malicious ways that I just cannot believe she would be unaware of. She stalked me for several months she would say terrible things in public right in front of me and then look my way to see if I would react. This person would do things and then turn and smirk with a pretty terrifying glaring stare. She hangs round and listens to all of my conversations blatantly and she has tried to turn my friends against me. When that didn't work she just started flaunting that my friends were now her friends when before she was trying to turn me against all of my friends and monopolize all of my time. I just don't understand how she could be unaware of what she is doing when I am getting knowing glances and smirks. I am truly confused
She's playing with you. Don't even waste your attention on it. There can still be a big payoff even when she's in denial about her actions and motivations. Denial is an unconscious defense mechanism, by definition.
My mother, 87, is a narcissist. I'm 71 and and even by the age of 5, I was aware how her behaviors were, and did, ruin my life. I didn't really witness her planning or coniving her abuses. I always though of her as instinctual and she would automatically engage in a narcissistic way without even wasting a second thinking of how to do it for the effect she wanted. She quickly altered her behavior according to who she was dealing with and never showed her narcissisim to strangers or those who were not a suitable target. She was, and is, really good at it and the only way to not be victimized by her is to not be around her.
Your videos really helped me to understand my older sister, who is a malignant narcissist. You're right that people with mental disorders really can't control and are unaware of what they're doing. In looking back over all of her shattered relationships and the pain she caused, she had no idea why she acted the way she did, and neither did I until seeing your videos.
The worst part is it is impossible to fix a problem that they can't see.
I know they're Not happy, desolate at times and I feel for them. However at aged in my early see ixties I've had to say enough is enough! I think your knowledge is quite wonderful, insightful and very kind hearted, and wisely empathic....thank you, and it's helpful for someone I have at this stage lost!
It's very interesting stuff, and mirrors an awful incident with a friend whom I'd known for over twenty years since university. He has all of the traits you describe: the 'drowning man', the lack of self awareness, the problems with understanding other people, the constant need for stimulation and the totally self destructive behaviours. I think an awful lot of it came from him being raised a strict catholic, and being gay. He told me that when he was younger, he used to switch the lights off so that God wouldn't see him and know he was gay. Sadly, it got significantly worse. He was grossly cheating on his husband, and the police raided his house. They'd been tipped off by google that he had been viewing child sex exploitation images and videos. It went to court and turned out that he'd been doing so for at least 11 years, since had his current laptop (no doubt was going on before that too). I'm still in shock by it and trying to figure out why he did it. His sexuality was totally out of control in general, and I'm left wondering how much of this is a symptom of that and how much is because of a genuine, deeper interest in children. From what I've read, it's well documented that sex offenders have very serious cognitive distortions, which sound similar to the most extreme examples of NPD. I also learned that he was using some of his friends' homes when they (and his partner) weren't home, to bring back prostitutes. It does sometimes seem very calculated. It's hard to get a firm feeling whether it is very Machiavellian or whether it's a symptom of that internal desperation that you mention.
@Italian69Boisadly I think all kinds of mental health issues are more common. Toxic shame at the root of so much of it.
This has always been a big question with ambiguous answers everywhere.
My answer: They are human with a brain, like mine. I have fundamental patterns of behavior which are not narcissistic and have been established and or changed by my life experiences. Some I have changed, some I have not. They all go into my constructed and reconstructed sense of self and are automatic responses to life combined with thought out responses. But fairly predictable based on the fact that I am NOT a narcissist. I'm not aware of the fact that I'm a non-narcissist acting with a healthy sense of non-narcissistic self and all the non-neurotic and neurotic qualities that make up me. I don't see myself as inherently destructive; neither do narcissists who operate the same way. I think I'm just fine being a normal (non- narcissistic human) person and would blow you off if you accused me of being a narcissist, as would a narcissist. To make my point: I think it is unconscious- it's just the way they operate in a conditioned unaware way.
If there is more to it than that practical explanation then I suspect I don't really need to know more on a theoretical level.
I have struggled with evil verses mentally ill for 45 years, I understand my ex husband has a mental illness but the way in which he hides it from other people close to him and only aims his anger at his love interest at the time tells me that he must be in control and be aware of his actions, if they are not aware how can they be so covert?
I agree.
I think *sometimes* it's a subconscious awareness. I mean it's not consciously acknowledged that he *knows* he won't "get away with" behaviors in general company. He hides to be accepted, but isn't conscious of it. But with you, well, he's far beyond being able to fool you anymore. It's all completely predicated on how he *subconsciously* suspecta he'll be perceived by others, without considering the actual feelings of those others.
People with NPD change their view of people or situations as their environment becomes intolerable, rather than changing their behavior. This used to be adaptive in childhood, when agency was restricted or entirely removed, but becomes maladaptive in adulthood when they are expected to act with agency. They act logically within the distorted framework they see through, which is inspired by their real experiences. They follow certain patterns because their actions get certain real results (for a while, at least) and they don't have the emotional tools to get themselves out of their own mental traps.
If you live in the States, you likely know how difficult it can be to get around without a car. Imagine someone has a cognitive impairment that makes them unable to drive safely, whether they can't process images well or lack coordination, whathaveyou. They have to drive fifteen minutes one way to get groceries to live, but they are a danger to others on the road. They may have already caused multiple collisions and severely harmed many people. But the solution to this problem isn't to put them in jail or isolate them or tell them they're evil, it's to give them a way to access groceries that doesn't put them behind the wheel of a vehicle. You personally don't have to drive them to the store, but you can support social services that deliver food, donate to charities, or even just correct misconceptions about the reasons people cause collisions. Maybe someday, with additional support and training, they may be able to drive for themselves, but they definitely won't get there if nobody gives them a safe place to learn.