Si tan solo hubiera encontrado esto antes, me habría ayudado muchísimo. Creo que este video puede ser la mejora explicación de las ll y y en todo el internet, de verdad (y he visto demasiadas). Todavía me está costando mucho realizar este sonido correctamente. Gracias.
Hi, great video. I think this will help me a lot. I am an American on the east coast in an area where we have lots of people from virtually all Spanish speaking countries. I do hear at least 4 different ways to make the LL sound. First, like someone else mentioned, it often sounds just like an English Y. Second, I hear what sounds like the English J. Third, I hear what sounds like "cha" in English from a Colombian friend. (She told me that my "Y" sound is ok if I want to sound like a Mexican). Fourth, there is the Argentinean way which sounds like either a French J (as in 'je suis') or like "sha".
Hi. What you hear from your Colombian friend is the affricate [ɟʝ], which I explain in the video. It can sound like [tʃ] (ch) to foreigners... It even confuses Siri!
Very excellent and detailed lesson although it would have been helpful for me if it included some practice with say 20 Spanish words like you do in some of your other videos.
From California - My family spoke Spanish but never taught it to me formally, so i just picked it up by exposure and i switch between the approximate and the fricative often without noticing, but I recently became a bit embarrassed by using the approximate. It's good to know though that I'm not the only one and I wasn't crazy but thinking it was common here. I guess it's best I just speak as I was taught and by the people I interact with more. Thank you for this
Hello @SpanishInput, Is it okay to vary between the [ɟʝ] --> [ʝ] --> [j] (palatal afrricate --> palatal fricative --> palatal approximant) spectrum in speech? I tend to pronounce the affricate in certain scenarios (especially in emphatic or poetic situations), but I also pronounce the fricative, and even weaken it to an approximant in some cases. How does this comply with the recommendation to not use the palatal approximant? Should I try to resist those "temptations" to weaken my palatal fricative to an approximant?
Hi! Sure, in real life native speakers vary between all three depending on the level of emphasis and the surrounding vowels. The reason why I tell learners to avoid the approximant sound is that English speakers naturally tend to produce a sound that is way too soft. It's more like a [ɪ], as in "kit". This is especially noticeable between the vowels /a e o/. So if you're an English speaker and you try to pronounce "ella" with a [j], ['e.ja], you are more likely to end up pronouncing ['eɪ̯a]. This is because of influence from the /aɪ eɪ ɔɪ/ diphthongs in English. So I keep telling learners to make sure they're using at least a bit of friction when they encounter a /ʝ/, because this way when they get more relaxed they might pronounce a [j], but not a [ɪ].
I find this video very helpful. It seems to explain why I sometimes hear y as in English "yes" and at other times a j like English "just." My Venezuelan in-laws seem to pronounce the ll and y consistently like English j. At least, that what it sounds like to my ear. But are the two sound of English j articulated in a different place than the palatal voiced fricative that you describe?
Hi! In English, the letter J represents the /dʒ/ phoneme, which is a voiced postalveolar affricate. In other words, it's just a voiced CH. The Spanish /ʝ/ phoneme might be pronounced like this, but it's not common. Palatal pronunciations are the most common worldwide, and they range from a full stop (plosive or affricate) [ɟʝ] to an approximant [j], with the "middle ground" being the fricative. "Palatal" is slightly further back in your mouth than "postalveolar". Thank you for your question. A lesson on the Spanish [ʝ] sound is in my to-do list for this month.
For Variantes Recomendadas, if we have trouble producing that sound, is it ok to use the English “J” sound for doble ele and i griega? Or is that as bad as using the English “Y” sound?
Hi! The English "j" sound [dʒ] is actually used in some places in America, seemingly at random. It might sound too strong to people in Spain or in north Mexico, but down here in South America most people won't notice the difference.
@@spanishinput So in those places, where dʒ sounds strong, is it just going to sound "foreign", or do you think it could actually hurt comprehension (especially when speaking fast)?
@@DiogoVKersting No, It's not going to hurt comprehension at all. It might sound foreign if you keep using dʒ and never ʝ or ɟʝ. Natives vary freely between them. Except in Argentina and Uruguay, where they stick to ʒ and ʃ.
@@spanishinput I once had a Dominican friend tell me that back in DR, they are taught to pronounce doble ele and i griega as an English J at the beginning of a word and as an English Y in the middle of words. Is this something taught through out Latin America? It sounds like an approximation to the fricativa and africada palatal sonoras.
This was interesting because as someone in southern California, where there's a huge influence from northern México, I almost solely hear the LL as a Y. And even amongst the Chicano population (so, 2nd & 3rd generation Mexicans) I only hear the Y pronunciation of LL. Funny enough, one time I had a Spanish tutor on italki try to correct my pronunciation of quesadilla because she didn't like my y pronunciation of the LL. And I remember thinking... But everyone pronounces it that way here! 😂
The problem is: When gringos try to imitate the northern Mexican/Californian /ʝ/ they make it waaay too soft, often dropping the approximant altogether, so "ella" ends up sounding like "ea". So it's a much better idea to always practice it with friction.
@@spanishinput I should probably pronounce it similar to the way the Spanish Speakers around me pronounce it, and they definitely pronounce it as /i/ or y. It just seems disingenuous to claim only gringos pronounce it without a palatal friction when a quick peruse on the internet shows a full-bodied discussion on how these pronunciations vary across many spanish speaking countries. And while I admittedly mostly talk to Mexican spanish speakers, I've seen a lot of explanations of this pronunciation as not only valid but as normal for native spanish speakers.... the RUclipsr Hello Spanish, from Argentina, has a video on four ways to pronounce LL & she describes the LL pronunciation this way: The “LL” in Spanish is with an /i/ or /ee/ sound, as when you say ‘bee’ or ‘iguana’. We use this way to pronounce the ‘LL’ in most countries in Latin America such as México, Chile, Perú, Bolivia, Cuba. Por ejemplo: - Me llamo María /meh iamoh maria/ (My name is Maria) -Lluvia /iuveeah/ -Llaves /iahbehs/ And Duolingo, Pimsluer, and SpanishDict use pronunciation guides & sound clips of these LL words with both a clear /i/ sound and the soft j sound
Casi nadie hace distinción pero yo si aprendí a hablar diferenciando la "Y" y la "LL", la "Y" mas parecida a una "i" 2:03 por lo mismo jamás diría "lles" (yes)
I have a question about the pronunciation of [dʒ]. If you've heard enough of Carribean Spanish (particularly, Puerto Rican and Dominican Spanish) have you noticed this sound being used in every position for y/ll? I particularly notice in in reggaetón. Or it could be [ɟʝ] that they're saying and I can't tell the difference.
@@spanishinput Wow so /v/ originally had its own sound in Spanish before it was merged with /b/ ? I read somewhere, when RAE was settling on the orthography, they decided to keep /v/ because it was a distinct sound in Latin, however it disappeared when Spanish was forming as its own language.
I've checked several sources about this, including the RAE and a book by Professor Hualde, an authority on Spanish phonology/phonetics. The consensus seems to be that there used to be a distinction in pronunciation between these two letters, but it was lost way before RAE settled the ortography 3 centuries ago. However, we don't know how V was pronounced in Spanish before it was lost. Prof. Hualde speculates that it was probably /β/ and it contrasted with /b/ only between vowels. Also, bear in mind that and were not separate letters until recently, to make things even more complex. @@damacx
@@spanishinput That is indeed interesting and complex. Around what time period did Spain stop using the original pronunciation of doble ele? Also how do you feel about comments that distincion helps native speakers spell their words properly?
Hi! Around the 16th century it started to get lost. As I mention in another video on the same subject, a century ago yeísmo was already common, but frowned upon. I don't have a date for when RAE finally accepted yeísmo as correct, but I know they accepted seseo as correct in the 1950s. As for keeping distinción for the spelling, well, unfortunately nowadays it's seen as weird by most people, so I would not do it.@@damacx
I pronounce the “y” and “ll” in Spanish as “y” in English, the same way they do in northern Mexico and the US states that were once part of Mexico. It’s the most common pronunciation here in Texas among those of us of Hispanic ancestry.
@@spanishinputyeah, but I don’t think I’ll ever get the opportunity to visit those countries. 😁 I’ll be a foreigner there anyway, since I’m not from there. I’m very proud to be a Spanish speaker from Texas with roots in my state going back to the 1700s. I like the way we speak Spanish.
If you can pronounced Y and LL as the palatal fricative or affricate in neutral Spanish. Why can't you be analogous and say HUEVO can be pronounced GWEBO and HIELO as YELO? Its the same concept of fortition?
Hi! Actually, the RAE considers those reinforcements as "normal". But Prof. Hualde points out in his book "Los sonidos del español" that educated speakers in some countries avoid those reinforcements. Even the RAE itself had to retract the proposed spelling for "whiskey" as "güisqui", because people protested that the RAE was validating a colloquial pronunciation. So this is the reason why I don't recommend students to reinforce [w] and [j] in initial position.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
Soy argentino y me cuesta mucho pronunciar la fricativa como en otros países inevitablemente me sale el sonido sh
Si tan solo hubiera encontrado esto antes, me habría ayudado muchísimo. Creo que este video puede ser la mejora explicación de las ll y y en todo el internet, de verdad (y he visto demasiadas). Todavía me está costando mucho realizar este sonido correctamente. Gracias.
Hi, great video. I think this will help me a lot. I am an American on the east coast in an area where we have lots of people from virtually all Spanish speaking countries. I do hear at least 4 different ways to make the LL sound. First, like someone else mentioned, it often sounds just like an English Y. Second, I hear what sounds like the English J. Third, I hear what sounds like "cha" in English from a Colombian friend. (She told me that my "Y" sound is ok if I want to sound like a Mexican). Fourth, there is the Argentinean way which sounds like either a French J (as in 'je suis') or like "sha".
Hi. What you hear from your Colombian friend is the affricate [ɟʝ], which I explain in the video. It can sound like [tʃ] (ch) to foreigners... It even confuses Siri!
Very excellent and detailed lesson although it would have been helpful for me if it included some practice with say 20 Spanish words like you do in some of your other videos.
Great suggestion! An upcoming video will have exactly this.
I use Zh for Y and LL like in Vision, Closure, and Pleasure.
Eso es incorrecto
From California - My family spoke Spanish but never taught it to me formally, so i just picked it up by exposure and i switch between the approximate and the fricative often without noticing, but I recently became a bit embarrassed by using the approximate. It's good to know though that I'm not the only one and I wasn't crazy but thinking it was common here. I guess it's best I just speak as I was taught and by the people I interact with more. Thank you for this
Hello @SpanishInput, Is it okay to vary between the [ɟʝ] --> [ʝ] --> [j] (palatal afrricate --> palatal fricative --> palatal approximant) spectrum in speech? I tend to pronounce the affricate in certain scenarios (especially in emphatic or poetic situations), but I also pronounce the fricative, and even weaken it to an approximant in some cases. How does this comply with the recommendation to not use the palatal approximant? Should I try to resist those "temptations" to weaken my palatal fricative to an approximant?
Hi! Sure, in real life native speakers vary between all three depending on the level of emphasis and the surrounding vowels. The reason why I tell learners to avoid the approximant sound is that English speakers naturally tend to produce a sound that is way too soft. It's more like a [ɪ], as in "kit". This is especially noticeable between the vowels /a e o/. So if you're an English speaker and you try to pronounce "ella" with a [j], ['e.ja], you are more likely to end up pronouncing ['eɪ̯a]. This is because of influence from the /aɪ eɪ ɔɪ/ diphthongs in English. So I keep telling learners to make sure they're using at least a bit of friction when they encounter a /ʝ/, because this way when they get more relaxed they might pronounce a [j], but not a [ɪ].
I find this video very helpful. It seems to explain why I sometimes hear y as in English "yes" and at other times a j like English "just." My Venezuelan in-laws seem to pronounce the ll and y consistently like English j. At least, that what it sounds like to my ear. But are the two sound of English j articulated in a different place than the palatal voiced fricative that you describe?
Hi! In English, the letter J represents the /dʒ/ phoneme, which is a voiced postalveolar affricate. In other words, it's just a voiced CH. The Spanish /ʝ/ phoneme might be pronounced like this, but it's not common. Palatal pronunciations are the most common worldwide, and they range from a full stop (plosive or affricate) [ɟʝ] to an approximant [j], with the "middle ground" being the fricative. "Palatal" is slightly further back in your mouth than "postalveolar". Thank you for your question. A lesson on the Spanish [ʝ] sound is in my to-do list for this month.
For Variantes Recomendadas, if we have trouble producing that sound, is it ok to use the English “J” sound for doble ele and i griega? Or is that as bad as using the English “Y” sound?
Hi! The English "j" sound [dʒ] is actually used in some places in America, seemingly at random. It might sound too strong to people in Spain or in north Mexico, but down here in South America most people won't notice the difference.
@@spanishinput So in those places, where dʒ sounds strong, is it just going to sound "foreign", or do you think it could actually hurt comprehension (especially when speaking fast)?
@@DiogoVKersting No, It's not going to hurt comprehension at all. It might sound foreign if you keep using dʒ and never ʝ or ɟʝ. Natives vary freely between them. Except in Argentina and Uruguay, where they stick to ʒ and ʃ.
@@spanishinput I once had a Dominican friend tell me that back in DR, they are taught to pronounce doble ele and i griega as an English J at the beginning of a word and as an English Y in the middle of words. Is this something taught through out Latin America? It sounds like an approximation to the fricativa and africada palatal sonoras.
@@damacx Hi! Most interesting. Yes, it does seem like an approximation to a neutral pronunciation.
This was interesting because as someone in southern California, where there's a huge influence from northern México, I almost solely hear the LL as a Y. And even amongst the Chicano population (so, 2nd & 3rd generation Mexicans) I only hear the Y pronunciation of LL. Funny enough, one time I had a Spanish tutor on italki try to correct my pronunciation of quesadilla because she didn't like my y pronunciation of the LL. And I remember thinking... But everyone pronounces it that way here! 😂
The problem is: When gringos try to imitate the northern Mexican/Californian /ʝ/ they make it waaay too soft, often dropping the approximant altogether, so "ella" ends up sounding like "ea". So it's a much better idea to always practice it with friction.
@@spanishinput I should probably pronounce it similar to the way the Spanish Speakers around me pronounce it, and they definitely pronounce it as /i/ or y. It just seems disingenuous to claim only gringos pronounce it without a palatal friction when a quick peruse on the internet shows a full-bodied discussion on how these pronunciations vary across many spanish speaking countries. And while I admittedly mostly talk to Mexican spanish speakers, I've seen a lot of explanations of this pronunciation as not only valid but as normal for native spanish speakers.... the RUclipsr Hello Spanish, from Argentina, has a video on four ways to pronounce LL & she describes the LL pronunciation this way:
The “LL” in Spanish is with an /i/ or /ee/ sound, as when you say ‘bee’ or ‘iguana’.
We use this way to pronounce the ‘LL’ in most countries in Latin America such as México, Chile, Perú, Bolivia, Cuba.
Por ejemplo:
- Me llamo María /meh iamoh maria/ (My name is Maria)
-Lluvia /iuveeah/
-Llaves /iahbehs/
And Duolingo, Pimsluer, and SpanishDict use pronunciation guides & sound clips of these LL words with both a clear /i/ sound and the soft j sound
Muy interesantes tus videos que tratan de pronunciación. ¿Puedes hacer un video sobre cómo se pronuncia la "ñ" en español estándar?
Buenos días. Sí, ya lo hice. Está en la sección para miembros del canal: ruclips.net/video/LyzLqbZKixk/видео.html
Esta es la mejor explicación que encontré. Aquí en Brasil nos enseñan a utilizar el sonido [ʤ].
Gracias por tus videos. Me encantan!
¡Muchas gracias, Ryan!
Excelente video
¡Gracias! Un gusto que te haya gustado.
Excelente explicación!!!! Gracias
Qué gran vídeo, pero sería bueno tener algunas frases de ejemplo para escuchar y practicar
¡Gracias por comentar! Lo tendré en cuenta.
another great video, thx
Glad you enjoyed it
Qué ironico que me salgan clases de español para gringos siendo hispano jajajj😅
Casi nadie hace distinción pero yo si aprendí a hablar diferenciando la "Y" y la "LL", la "Y" mas parecida a una "i"
2:03 por lo mismo jamás diría "lles" (yes)
I have a question about the pronunciation of [dʒ]. If you've heard enough of Carribean Spanish (particularly, Puerto Rican and Dominican Spanish) have you noticed this sound being used in every position for y/ll? I particularly notice in in reggaetón. Or it could be [ɟʝ] that they're saying and I can't tell the difference.
Hi! Unfortunately I don't listen to reggaetón, so I can't answer this question. And yes, it's not easy to tell both sounds apart.
It is interesting to note the RAE doesn’t try to reinforce the original pronounciation of doble ele.
Yup, they've learned from the big mistake they did when they insisted for centuries on making a /b/-/v/ distinction and an /s/-/θ/ distinction.
@@spanishinput Wow so /v/ originally had its own sound in Spanish before it was merged with /b/ ? I read somewhere, when RAE was settling on the orthography, they decided to keep /v/ because it was a distinct sound in Latin, however it disappeared when Spanish was forming as its own language.
I've checked several sources about this, including the RAE and a book by Professor Hualde, an authority on Spanish phonology/phonetics. The consensus seems to be that there used to be a distinction in pronunciation between these two letters, but it was lost way before RAE settled the ortography 3 centuries ago. However, we don't know how V was pronounced in Spanish before it was lost. Prof. Hualde speculates that it was probably /β/ and it contrasted with /b/ only between vowels. Also, bear in mind that and were not separate letters until recently, to make things even more complex. @@damacx
@@spanishinput That is indeed interesting and complex. Around what time period did Spain stop using the original pronunciation of doble ele? Also how do you feel about comments that distincion helps native speakers spell their words properly?
Hi! Around the 16th century it started to get lost. As I mention in another video on the same subject, a century ago yeísmo was already common, but frowned upon. I don't have a date for when RAE finally accepted yeísmo as correct, but I know they accepted seseo as correct in the 1950s. As for keeping distinción for the spelling, well, unfortunately nowadays it's seen as weird by most people, so I would not do it.@@damacx
I pronounce the “y” and “ll” in Spanish as “y” in English, the same way they do in northern Mexico and the US states that were once part of Mexico. It’s the most common pronunciation here in Texas among those of us of Hispanic ancestry.
Good enough for that specific area, but you'll sound foreign in some places in South America, particularly Colombia.
@@spanishinputyeah, but I don’t think I’ll ever get the opportunity to visit those countries. 😁 I’ll be a foreigner there anyway, since I’m not from there. I’m very proud to be a Spanish speaker from Texas with roots in my state going back to the 1700s. I like the way we speak Spanish.
¿Cómo que todos los hispanoparlantes somos yeístas? Ven al norte de Argentina y Paraguay...
It's like polish ź/dź pair (well, almost 😊)
If you can pronounced Y and LL as the palatal fricative or affricate in neutral Spanish. Why can't you be analogous and say HUEVO can be pronounced GWEBO and HIELO as YELO? Its the same concept of fortition?
Hi! Actually, the RAE considers those reinforcements as "normal". But Prof. Hualde points out in his book "Los sonidos del español" that educated speakers in some countries avoid those reinforcements. Even the RAE itself had to retract the proposed spelling for "whiskey" as "güisqui", because people protested that the RAE was validating a colloquial pronunciation.
So this is the reason why I don't recommend students to reinforce [w] and [j] in initial position.
I'm learning spanish on Duolingo and it's pronounced all these ways. Made my brain hurt
HUGE in English is not pronounced HUT.
This why I used fluentu
Ese doblaje rioplatense de Los increíbles se me hace muy _cringe._ Jaja
Por alguna razón es mi favorito. "¡A laburar!"