Hi Keith, I'm sure you know this, but it might be useful for others. The trick of measuring diagonals is only guaranteed to work when the lengths of the opposite sides are equal. I know you were careful to cut your pieces of rectangular tubing to reasonably accurate lengths. Else, you wouldn't have been able to clamp your squares in four corners with minimal gaps. Pulling the diagonals in this situation is kind of a belts and suspenders proposition. Or, perhaps a better analogy is, measure twice (four square corners and equal diagonals) and weld once. It's easy to demonstrate the fallacy of measuring diagonals if the opposite sides are not equal: draw two diagonals of equal length, have them intersect other than at their midpoints. Now draw the quadrilateral whose corners (vertices) are the endpoints of the diagonals. This quadrilateral will not be a rectangle, and will not be "square", yet the diagonals will be of equal lengths. I once worked on a volunteer project where the team leader "squared" the footings of a rectangular house by measuring the diagonals. It was visibly clear that the corners were not square. But, the team leader insisted I was seeing an optical illusion. I and one of my buddies measured the length of the sides and sure enough, one side had been incorrectly measured by a couple of feet. Could not get the team leader convinced until I sketched two diagonals of equal length that didn't intersect at their midpoints and then drew the quadrilateral whose vertices were the endpoints of the diagonals. That really made the team leader scratch his head. We adjusted the lengths of the footings to those called out on the plan, pulled diagonal measurements to ensure squareness, and poured a square footing of the correct dimensions.
It’s great to see you weld the way I was taught by pushing your weld. I was taught by a former military welder that welded on armored vehicles and tanks before ending where I was working on prototype vehicle production in central Ohio. I am sure he could weld cast iron to cardboard.
The expression I know for this: A great welder could weld two horse turds together if he/she had the right rod. The truly outstanding welders are perfecting the rod!
you push with gas aka oxy acetalyene /tig. Follow with arc/mig to push the heat into the weld to get pentration. The puddle on mig method doesnt work well. You can experiment if you like.
I don't have a surface plate yet, but I do have some pretty uniq slate top work benches that have a nice surface on them that's close enough for the learning stuff I'm doing now. I'm sure sometime soon I'll start wishing I had a surface plate.
Welding downhill is fine for what you're doing here Kieth. Not code compliant but It'll be fine for stuff like this. Welding 3G with a mig can be nearly impossible with certain gas mixtures. High Argon makes the puddle too fluid. Places like Komatsu that do it all the time use "fast freeze" welding wire for it. Looks good tho!
Drill a 1/2" vent hole (or 4 of them) on the bottom to make sure water does not stay inside. Your pin holes will allow the moisture in, but not out (due to condensating on the cold steel). Nice squares.
You’re missing one item from your set of ppe, a multi coloured cloth hat to go under your shield. From experience supervising some contract welders you need several caps so as not to clash with any other welder. Now this is serious, the equivalent of high fashion on the job site and I have several stories to go with my observations. Oh and the soft peak is worn off centre at the back of the head to protect against the sun or another welders ark uv. Regards. P.S. Welding supply outlets on this side of the pond usually have a goodly number for sale.
Peter Gregory the peak of the cap is worn to the side to keep sparks out of the ear. If you ever get a hot spark in your ear you know about it right away.
Hi Kieth You either make it airtight or not. If it is airtight, once the oxygen inside is depleted, the rusting stops regardless on humidity. Only if that humidity (H2O) is separated into H and O, rusting would start with the Oxygen, but that is not going to happen spontaneously (Dissociate water). If my memory doesn't betray me, for each 8g of oxygen, one gram of iron is rusted. You would be lucky if in the tube you have more than 10g of oxygen left if it is kept sealed. So less than 2 grams of iron will rust. If it is not airtight and oxygen can get in, then it will rust obviously, being humidity a helper. Due to the temperature inertia of iron, when the iron is cold and the air is hotter, due to the dew point you can have condensation inside and if it is not airtight and oxygen can get in it will continue to rust. Maybe a compromise is to use a sealant on those corners if welding is not going to guarantee it. Of course if it rusts, it will be an issue in 200 years from now :-)
The issue with sealing a tube like that is that the hot gasses inside the tube will blow your weld out as you try to close it. If I was building it and was really concerned with rust, I'd just either paint the inside with weld-through primer before welding it up, or since that's not an option now, drill a hole in it and you could purge the tubing with an inert gas.
I look forward to next video. However from sound and looks of weld you had little penetration. That and you don't push a weld on mig as that just lays it ontop. You follow so that all the heat gets down. Hard to describe.
hello kieth pretty nice welds bud. just a pointer kieth weld your inside and outside corners downhand like an upside down u shape it will penitrate enough for what is requirered and look nice as well. hope this helps for future welds.
I was refering to his comment at 1,20sec in. with a genuine question. I am sure that he does not need you to fight his corner with speculation and bad spelling!
first of all it is all spelt correctly, second, talk about rude, do you think keith is going to waste time answering you? why should he justify your lack of understanding of everything he is going to do ?
Keith I'm just curious what size wire did you use, solid or flux core if solid wire what gas did you use? Nice welding for a low time mig welder. And of course another great video... Thank you!
I have a question, Keith. How flat does that stand have to be in order to not affect the surface plate? if the tubing had a slight bow in it, will that eventually affect the plate that is sitting on top it? Will you have to use a type of bedding material to make sure the surface plate is equally supported by the stand all the way around? I know some people will say it is stone and not prone to flexing, but I have seen mountains before so I know that is not necessarily true.
the plate stands on 3 or 4 points of contact, adjustable feet in those specific places, it will have been ground with support in the same areas, it doesnt sit flat on a surface as such
Keith said and has said in past videos about surface plates that there is going to be additional cross pieces the granite will actually rest on. The granite plate is supported by three feet on the bottom of the plate so this frame doesn't affect the plate's surface directly. There are several videos about surface plates, how they are tested, calibrated, finished, and supported. Keith, Stan, Adam, Tom Lipton, and others have videos about granite plates.
Wish I had worn gloves and a jacket from the beginning after many skin cancer surgery's on the top of my hands and forearms. Now I won't even tack with out gloves.
Both actually so everyone is right. The arc is ultra violet for that (un)healthy welder's tan but those little molten beads flying everywhere are very much glowing in the infra red as they burn holes in your skin.
With MIG welding, verticals should be done in the downward direction from top to bottom as it is shielded by gas. Different from stick welding, which is always done vertical up because of slag inclusions welding vertical down.
Michael St John. While vertical down is a method for MIG, Vertical up is primarily used, for strength. Especially in structural, if I used vertical downs they wouldn't pass and I would likely be sending my cv around. The truth is that down is acceptable for most applications, for example this project. But up is an important skill to have if you're in the game. The reasoning behind the Up vs. Down is penetration. You will get much more penetration and heat into the joint with a vertical up, where down is bordering on a gravity cold lap. Again, down is good enough for this purpose, so I'm not disagreeing with you entirely. Only sharing the knowledge.
I replied with a shorter version before I seen this. You're totally correct. Vertical down wouldn't pass an inspection, but Kieth doesn't need to worry about code compliance here. It's all just commons sense really, I'm a CWI and I can tell you that the structure of the tube will fail long before those flat welds will so I wouldn't worry about a few down welds on the corners.
I'd wrap the stone with a heat blanket, and control it with an electric thermostat. On such a large mass, the differential temperatures between the internal and external masses would certainly warp the surface.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
Another great video, another great project and some handy hints for us novice welders out there. Thanks Keith.
Hi Keith, I'm sure you know this, but it might be useful for others. The trick of measuring diagonals is only guaranteed to work when the lengths of the opposite sides are equal. I know you were careful to cut your pieces of rectangular tubing to reasonably accurate lengths. Else, you wouldn't have been able to clamp your squares in four corners with minimal gaps. Pulling the diagonals in this situation is kind of a belts and suspenders proposition. Or, perhaps a better analogy is, measure twice (four square corners and equal diagonals) and weld once.
It's easy to demonstrate the fallacy of measuring diagonals if the opposite sides are not equal: draw two diagonals of equal length, have them intersect other than at their midpoints. Now draw the quadrilateral whose corners (vertices) are the endpoints of the diagonals. This quadrilateral will not be a rectangle, and will not be "square", yet the diagonals will be of equal lengths.
I once worked on a volunteer project where the team leader "squared" the footings of a rectangular house by measuring the diagonals. It was visibly clear that the corners were not square. But, the team leader insisted I was seeing an optical illusion. I and one of my buddies measured the length of the sides and sure enough, one side had been incorrectly measured by a couple of feet. Could not get the team leader convinced until I sketched two diagonals of equal length that didn't intersect at their midpoints and then drew the quadrilateral whose vertices were the endpoints of the diagonals. That really made the team leader scratch his head. We adjusted the lengths of the footings to those called out on the plan, pulled diagonal measurements to ensure squareness, and poured a square footing of the correct dimensions.
Great welding - Jim Bollinger is a good instructor!
Looks like you have a good start! I plan to invest in some Fireball squares someday, they are just too handy.
It’s great to see you weld the way I was taught by pushing your weld.
I was taught by a former military welder that welded on armored vehicles and tanks before ending where I was working on prototype vehicle production in central Ohio. I am sure he could weld cast iron to cardboard.
The expression I know for this: A great welder could weld two horse turds together if he/she had the right rod. The truly outstanding welders are perfecting the rod!
you push with gas aka oxy acetalyene /tig. Follow with arc/mig to push the heat into the weld to get pentration. The puddle on mig method doesnt work well. You can experiment if you like.
I don't have a surface plate yet, but I do have some pretty uniq slate top work benches that have a nice surface on them that's close enough for the learning stuff I'm doing now. I'm sure sometime soon I'll start wishing I had a surface plate.
You are much to modest, your welds are fine, interesting project looking foward for the paint. Lol
I think you’re an awesome dude keep up the good work
I was doing the same thing this morning making a table for my lathe. The new motor made me have to do it. I went to a 3 phase 220 with a VFD.
THANK YOU...for sharing. Nice welds.
Nice welding Keith looks heavy duty indeed
Keith looking good.
Welding downhill is fine for what you're doing here Kieth. Not code compliant but It'll be fine for stuff like this. Welding 3G with a mig can be nearly impossible with certain gas mixtures. High Argon makes the puddle too fluid. Places like Komatsu that do it all the time use "fast freeze" welding wire for it. Looks good tho!
Drill a 1/2" vent hole (or 4 of them) on the bottom to make sure water does not stay inside. Your pin holes will allow the moisture in, but not out (due to condensating on the cold steel). Nice squares.
Agree, good advice. Regards
yep i agree, ^
Rectangular tubing will be more rigid in the wider direction; rotating those 90° would give a more rigid frame for the vertical load.
You’re missing one item from your set of ppe, a multi coloured cloth hat to go under your shield. From experience supervising some contract welders you need several caps so as not to clash with any other welder. Now this is serious, the equivalent of high fashion on the job site and I have several stories to go with my observations. Oh and the soft peak is worn off centre at the back of the head to protect against the sun or another welders ark uv. Regards. P.S. Welding supply outlets on this side of the pond usually have a goodly number for sale.
Peter Gregory the peak of the cap is worn to the side to keep sparks out of the ear. If you ever get a hot spark in your ear you know about it right away.
Hi Kieth
You either make it airtight or not.
If it is airtight, once the oxygen inside is depleted, the rusting stops regardless on humidity.
Only if that humidity (H2O) is separated into H and O, rusting would start with the Oxygen, but that is
not going to happen spontaneously (Dissociate water).
If my memory doesn't betray me, for each 8g of oxygen, one gram of iron is rusted. You would be
lucky if in the tube you have more than 10g of oxygen left if it is kept sealed. So less than 2 grams of iron will rust.
If it is not airtight and oxygen can get in, then it will rust obviously, being humidity a helper.
Due to the temperature inertia of iron, when the iron is cold and the air is hotter, due to the
dew point you can have condensation inside and if it is not airtight and oxygen can get in
it will continue to rust.
Maybe a compromise is to use a sealant on those corners if welding is not going to guarantee it.
Of course if it rusts, it will be an issue in 200 years from now :-)
The issue with sealing a tube like that is that the hot gasses inside the tube will blow your weld out as you try to close it. If I was building it and was really concerned with rust, I'd just either paint the inside with weld-through primer before welding it up, or since that's not an option now, drill a hole in it and you could purge the tubing with an inert gas.
you do know that weld thru primer is just a high zinc paint that doesnt stick to metal worth crap right?
Looks good. I would weld it solid and and then drill a few weep holes in the tubes. Holes in the welds are weak points. But its you plate not mine. .
at least you welded it in the correct direction .. not like most do .. they think they are stick welding when using the MIG ... :)
I look forward to next video. However from sound and looks of weld you had little penetration. That and you don't push a weld on mig as that just lays it ontop. You follow so that all the heat gets down. Hard to describe.
hello kieth pretty nice welds bud. just a pointer kieth weld your inside and outside corners downhand like an upside down u shape it will penitrate enough for what is requirered and look nice as well. hope this helps for future welds.
As the weight is suspended along the long side would it have been more rigid if the box section was rotated through 90 degrees?
it has a 3 or 4 point contact , not a total contact with the slab, plus who knows where he is reinforcing, he im sure thought of all this
I was refering to his comment at 1,20sec in. with a genuine question. I am sure that he does not need you to fight his corner with speculation and bad spelling!
first of all it is all spelt correctly, second, talk about rude, do you think keith is going to waste time answering you? why should he justify your lack of understanding of everything he is going to do ?
( he im sure ) the middle word is not in my dictionary.
so youre pedantic about an apostrophe? lol enjoy life on the internet
What is the cost of materials vs the price of a Starrett stand of the same size? Just curious.
Keith I'm just curious what size wire did you use, solid or flux core if solid wire what gas did you use? Nice welding for a low time mig welder. And of course another great video... Thank you!
Those squares... would ppl that already have them recommend just the small ones or get a mix like in the vid?
nice Keith. down hand them corners😉
Keith. Do you have to have any special settings on your camera to video when your welding? Does your camera film through a welding lense?
first Mig-welding? You did great
I don't think he said that.
He never said it was his first time. He said he was proficient but did not own a MIG welder.
A grinder and paint makes me the welder I ain't. Haha just kidding nice work
Another great video ! Thanks !
Most excellent.
Our welding teacher always said the world's best welding instructor was a 40-lb grinder.
AWESOME .. ENJOYED !!
"A grinder and paint make you the welder you ain't." -AvE, probably
I assume your recent visit with Jim Bollinger was in preparation for this project.
I have a question, Keith. How flat does that stand have to be in order to not affect the surface plate? if the tubing had a slight bow in it, will that eventually affect the plate that is sitting on top it? Will you have to use a type of bedding material to make sure the surface plate is equally supported by the stand all the way around? I know some people will say it is stone and not prone to flexing, but I have seen mountains before so I know that is not necessarily true.
the plate stands on 3 or 4 points of contact, adjustable feet in those specific places, it will have been ground with support in the same areas, it doesnt sit flat on a surface as such
Keith said and has said in past videos about surface plates that there is going to be additional cross pieces the granite will actually rest on. The granite plate is supported by three feet on the bottom of the plate so this frame doesn't affect the plate's surface directly. There are several videos about surface plates, how they are tested, calibrated, finished, and supported. Keith, Stan, Adam, Tom Lipton, and others have videos about granite plates.
Thanks for the answer, I honestly had no idea if the plate would eventually bow from its own weight being supported in such a manner.
Thumbs up 👍
with such amazing fabrication speed, we are here for a minimum of 90 parts
I would be very happy if I could lay a weld like that.
im sure you can, mig on thicker metal is pretty easy with the smallest of practise! you can get there!
Keith
Just a nit pick, but I am sure back when you and went to school, that is RECTANGUKAR tubing, not square
John
I'll have to send you a different grinder disk I use for beveling stuff like that. It doesn't last as long but is much nicer to work with.
Does anybody understand, why he uses the square tubes flat instead of upright???
Same question
For looks
Hey Keith the welder emits ultra violet not infra red... Its the ones that will turn you into a handsome brunette... :)
Wish I had worn gloves and a jacket from the beginning after many skin cancer surgery's on the top of my hands and forearms. Now I won't even tack with out gloves.
Both actually so everyone is right. The arc is ultra violet for that (un)healthy welder's tan but those little molten beads flying everywhere are very much glowing in the infra red as they burn holes in your skin.
It's easier to weld downhill with the MIG.
Much stronger weld in the flat position
👍🏼
A good welder don't need a grinder.
Must be fucked when the job asks for flush finish
Airy points
With MIG welding, verticals should be done in the downward direction from top to bottom as it is shielded by gas. Different from stick welding, which is always done vertical up because of slag inclusions welding vertical down.
Michael St John. While vertical down is a method for MIG, Vertical up is primarily used, for strength. Especially in structural, if I used vertical downs they wouldn't pass and I would likely be sending my cv around. The truth is that down is acceptable for most applications, for example this project. But up is an important skill to have if you're in the game. The reasoning behind the Up vs. Down is penetration. You will get much more penetration and heat into the joint with a vertical up, where down is bordering on a gravity cold lap. Again, down is good enough for this purpose, so I'm not disagreeing with you entirely. Only sharing the knowledge.
I replied with a shorter version before I seen this. You're totally correct. Vertical down wouldn't pass an inspection, but Kieth doesn't need to worry about code compliance here. It's all just commons sense really, I'm a CWI and I can tell you that the structure of the tube will fail long before those flat welds will so I wouldn't worry about a few down welds on the corners.
That’s all?
Why didn't you stick weld that like a real carpenter? LOLj/k, good work!
the elmers glue kept falling off!
clamp it down to table. welder can pull
It will pull in all directions. So no worries.
I'm not sure why a granite surface plate wouldn't incorporate a heating element and a thermostat to prevent temperature warping.
Landrew0
I think that’s why they use such a large mass to prevent any potential warping. His is going to be more than a ton most likely.
A 72" X 36" X 12" slab comes out to be approx 3090.7 lbs! Yikes!!
A larger mass will warp less? LOL
i believe the granite is aged well before it is sold, they must know by now if it did
I'd wrap the stone with a heat blanket, and control it with an electric thermostat. On such a large mass, the differential temperatures between the internal and external masses would certainly warp the surface.
Is that a Lincoln welder in the background painted blue? Shame on you!!
bob fuller it clearly says miller on the side
Forged By Hammerhead Look behind the Miller
Look again
Look Again
tig or arc, he doesnt have a mig welder