Tuttle is thinking of robots like they're computers when he should be thinking of them like they're printers: They are experts at finding new and creative ways to not work.
Nah, printers are DESIGNED to not work at the most inconvenient of times. And then there was a linux bug where `brother` brand printers didn't print on Tuesdays, but only on Tuesdays. Real story.
@@Megalomaniakaaland in the end it turns out that the issue isn't even in the printer software, but instead in the software used to detect what type of file a given file was if it had a "Tue" in the date, ("tue" or any other weekday was fine), it detected it as a the wrong file format and thought it wasn't printable
I sympathize. There is a phrase/exchange I used to use with my younger siblings, in Spanish, but it goes; *"Niños, cual es el peor enemigo del hombre?"* ------> *"LAG!"* *"Kids, what is man's worst foe?"* -----> *"LAG!"* (They'd respond in unison)
If vedal insists on going all out with a custom sensor package out of the gate, he’s actually missing an incredible narrative and fundraising opportunity. You make the dog with the phone first, and then once you have the proof of concept and work out the bugs, THEN you go and do the full sensor suite FOR EVIL. And then you have two daughter-doggos with sibling rivalry mechanics, and when the sensors act up “that’s just Evil misbehaving. You know. Cuz she’s evil.”
@@cdgonepotatoes4219 The thing is that it just wasn't possible for Vedal to make a zero latency Neuro with his resources. Now reduced latency is possible but it's a visionary dispute.
@@mangodude-nq6su You don't handicap a prototype specifcally because it's a prototype, Ellie wants to to keep simplicity which Vedal would rather sacrifice for latency. Neuro Dog also isn't just a prototype, it's a 1 of a kind machine.
The thing is vedal doesn’t want latency, that is priority!! Because we already know what happened on his first collabs people don’t want to wait 4-5 seconds to wait you answer. Yes Ellie has insight on building part but vedal knows what HE NEEDS out of robot
@@Tennosoul Yeah but he is also not designing, building or even funding the construction of the robot. Ellie isn't some contractor that is getting payed to build a robot for Vedal, she is a volunteer that proposed to build him a robot for free, while working as a full time engineer, streaming three times a week, writing music, and playing with bugs. It is her project as much as it is him. And while we all want neuro dog to be the best possible, let's not forget about the work life balance of the people behind the project.
@@PerForkOp Thing is, he *is* designing it with her. That's why there's a dispute at all, if it were just her input she'd ignore what he has to say and do it her way. And Ellie wanting a simpler design doesn't undermine how Vedal has a very specific need that the build has to fulfill in its function that'll be lost if she does it her way. Why waste hours of work on a robot that can't do the thing it was made to do? Latency will kill the project if it's ignored, it's why he's so keen on solving that issue.
Nah they're common, but it's difficult to be entertaining AND an intellectual at the same time (it's two totally different job), that's why we got some ADHD Grimlin' like Filian or Iron Mouse or some Lewdtuber in the front page
Yeah, that is the problem with us programmer, we are all extremely pig headed and like things going our way. I mean, we get tribal scuffles over which programming language is the best, when really there is no one size fits all solution.
You got me. When i read that last line i thought "If you try hard enough and ignore efficiency, there is definitely a one size fit all solution!" I think it's cool that if you give 10 programmers a problem, you'll end up with about 10 different solutions. Comparing them is (sometimes) fun 😂
This the age old problem of architecture dream and engineering nightmare. Vedal probably want the latency to be the best possible because of his experience with IRL latency issue, the Filian streams with Vedal are absolutely nightmare to watch because of the 3-4s delays, so imagine the delays from another added source ontop of those. Meanwhile Ellie is trying to make Neuro actually function as intended as she is a robotic engineer. I do hope she actually convey her point to Vedal though.
I love how smart and energetic she is, she’s such a vibe. I’m an apprentice software dev and I love hearing someone else talk about tech stuff. Wish I knew someone like her irl fr lmao
I really want Neuro-dog to have a high-powered laser now. Neuro every time she meets somebody new: “Laser burns to eyes” Vedal: *Stop!* You can’t keep doing that to people. Neuro: awe 😢 The last 3 people she’s met: *AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!*
While I'm not an expert in either field, I don't think there will be a true compromised regarding this project. Both are very good at their craft but the lack of shared vision will lead to massive scuff and potentially a scrapped idea. Vedal clearly wants Neuro Dog to be an actual step up to Neuro herself, being able to interact with the world around her physically. Quite the vision and an impressive goal but Ellie is working in the confines of what's actually capable in robotics, or at least the absolute extent of her own knowledge for them. Vedal is a good programmer but also surprisingly quite visionary in his own way given how clever he is with stream ideas. He rarely likes to settle for less based on previous times he's tried to improve Neuro but it sounds like the complications of computer programming and robotic engineering coupled with the unique context of a "homemade" AI that streams as a vtuber makes the project seem more insanely complicated than the general premise of a simple AI guiding a small robot dog. I don't doubt their skills but this project will likely be the roughest and toughest one yet for Neuro. I just hope they don't run themselves rampant trying to make it work. Sounds exaggerative but the scope of any project getting out of hand and crumbling to dust does stem from a lack of shared vision and compromise. A doomer take, I know, but those are just my observations. I'm sure they'll figure something out together to make it work as best they can
As an engineer, she's probably doing the inexperienced thing of asking the customer more than she should. I remember we wanted to offer great service, so we gave the customer a lot of design choices and they always ended up making 0 compromises and making the product worse. Nowadays we simply ask for the requirements first and then tell them (not ask them) how we're going to do it (or how we did it) without asking or giving a choice
From a naive perspective, it seems like the correct compromise would be to incorporate independent sensors and let vedal be responsible for processing it on the server side. Ellie doesn't have to filter the audio on the dog itself, but send unfiltered audio data to the server, and let the server process it on a dedicated audio thread. As some other comments have pointed out, there are even standard software solutions for this on PC.
@@NagaSadow97 I would add to that that the alternative that makes Vedal worried about latency is very easy to set up (comparatively), is easier to fix in case of a problem and has a lot of reliability on different things that's why it's more practical.
He is a man with borderline humor, sure he has his own sights on this. Just treat him like normal customer around 60 years old or older who was a teacher or prof. somethere^^
That will only last as long as nobody is charging 100k for a bag of bolts. From vedal I mean. DOD will keep paying 100K for a bag of bolts tho, since they need to assure the production lines are kept alive even at times of no orders and that the extreme tolerance metrics are maintained for the components.
For audio processing rtx remix seems like an easy low latency solution, i would be surprised if that didn't work, i think you'd just need to use a wireless audio transmitter and connect it to a pc using line in, configure it as a mic and you're done
And if they still want to build their own open-source audio filter, maybe they could get in touch with Lost Robot on RUclips? That guy has been on a roll programming some interesting stuff in that regard. That guy may know some tricks for low latency and not relying on any specific platform.
actually, i think the issue is he made some decisions way back when he started neuro's design which are very high latency, and now can't afford to compromise on latency any further because the latency is already noticeable.
@@arcanealchemist3190 wait so he messed up and is now trying to force more work onto someone doing him basicly a massive favor instead of fixing his on stuff? thats seems... very rude.
@@membranealpha5961No it's just more of that, If vedal wants a robo dog, it's either low latency or no robo dog/super scuffed robo dog. He just really really likes no latency
@@membranealpha5961 yo chillax they're in collaboration and he argues the extent in which he is willing to compromise for latency, which will be discussed at a later date with a potential justification being that it ould be difficult to do so as Neuro's fundamentals possibly for whatever reason may have alot of stress interms of latency on it already she wasn't exactly invented with the idea of robot dog in mind, yknow you have painted a seriously warped image of the situation in your mind
What if you use a drone IMU? There's tons of open-source flight-controller firmwares and stuff to interface with that stuff, and all sorts of kits, from several boards to stuff all crammed up in a single little square for tiny-whoops and such (the very little ones people use for racing indoors, fly in parks without having to worry about hurting people etc); that's stuff is meant to be really responsive, since drones have to do tons of instant-by-instant corrections to fly stable. Though, with the war, and all the trade taxing and stuff, dunno how easy it is to get your hands on that stuff nowadays; the `rona really put a damper on my interest in stuff that involves getting outside, and I haven't flown in a while, so I haven't had the need to buy any replacement parts since the 'rona came about, can't wreck if you don't fly :(
they were talking about a robotic dog and all i could think of was piss bot 9000 that michael made from the boston dynamics dog 😂😂. i would love to see a robot dog be built from scratch though
On the downside, whatever the outcome, I imagine the parts would be too expensive to design two robot dogs so Evil Neuro can pilot one. On the upside, I imagine she would be content with being installed in a knife roomba.
So my fear of her building a robotic boyfriend that will turn into skynet is now gone. My new fear is her kidnapping Neuro as a girlfriend and making evil neuro into skynet. with frigging laserbeams.
Well i guess it depends on hoe much latency we're talking about. Probably difficult to know a number before trying but i don't think the phone as a middle man adds that much? It's bluetooth but still. And if that's too much, you could also connect it via usb c, no? Then it should be neglible for sure
How open is the depth-sensor camera on iphones, can you hide an iphone on the head and have it used to scan the geometry of the space by looking around, do slam, obstacle detection etc? Or it can only be used with approved apps from the app store and stuff like that? Are there any decent Android phones with similar sensors that can be accessed with a custom APK transferred via ADB or whatever?
Y'know, I'd watch a Macaulay Caulkin-lookin' woman with the strucrural integrity of a pop tart work on a robot dog. I'm down for that stream. As an aside, I wonder if the better solution would be to integrate a laptop into the dog and have that deal with the sensors and run Neuro locally. Theoretically that would reduce latency on the bot's end, and they can just have one strong wireless connection between them and the bot to do communications and to veto Neuro's misadventures.
Personally I'd put my foot down on the joystick even if there was lidar. I wouldn't turn that loose without a manual oberride even if it was just a "stop moving" kill switch
I wonder if communicating wirelessly with the bot is going to be a tricky thing on the day, given the amount of devices in a convention setting. Bluetooth, wifi, or analog video all are on frequencies that are heavily used by other phones, given a phone will inherently use the same bands as almost any other phone in convention-goers pockets. It will be hard to know the impact before showtime too, emulation of load may be the only shot but how do you do that with a phone?
Giving up on the idea of autonomous navigation seems like losing the point, although maybe it's just for me, the first video with Neuro set the expectations that she'll be navigating herself. I see that it's not completely giving up, only when navigating through crowds, so it is okay, but it should be considered on stream as it may not be that satisfying to watch as Neuro roaming by herself. How expensive or difficult to implement is lidar? So, all in all, I think if lidar is a good idea and will look good on stream, Ellie probably should do that, otherwise joystick might be not that terrible as Vedal imagines it to be, however it might be clunky due to latency if Vedal himself controls it, or it might not be seamless transition between moments when Neuro is autonomous or control when someone controls Neuro near her, wo in that case, there theoretically wouldn't be a way to hide it. I wonder though if it is a good idea to make a beacon for a person to wear and Neuro-dog would closely follow the signal from the beacon, when navigating.
LiDar pricing and difficulty to implement depends on what you are trying to achieve. basically the more different points-per-unit-time the LiDar camera can measure, the more it will cost, but it gives you more info on the shapes you are looking at. with 1-3 points you could figure out if a single object is close or far, which is good if you are looking at wall and want to avoid it. with 100-1000 points, you could figure out the 3d shape of a single object, which is often easier and faster to use for object recognition than using a normal camera (iphone lidar is in this ballpark because they try to detect the shape of a face that is guaranteed to be most of the environment they are capturing). with +10000 points you could model the entire environment simultaneously, which is needed if you are trying to explore a complex environment at a fast pace (this is what autonomous cars use). I'd say neuro needs around 100 points, because using shape detection would require serious effort on the software side and they could just use normal camera image processing instead (Vedal already has that kinda). There's also the matter of effective distance you can measure accurately, which for neuro should be about 3 meters. Also how accurate you can measure in complex environments (dealing with infrared light saturation from the sun when outside, reflective efractive\absorbing surfaces, rain and wet environments which create inconsistent distortions, etc....) - the sensor manufacturer may have all the processing required for dealing with those baked into the sensor, which would save a massive ton of development time and also will have less processing time. I'd say for neuro they can ignore most of these aside for high levels of reflection and saturation. And of course there's also the question of whether they want 360 degrees of vision or less (or more if they want to see up\down too without relying on the body's capabilities to direct the sensor in that direction). I'd say it depends on what vedal prefers and how ellie plans to mount the sensor on neuro dog. So all in all what they are looking for can be found in the 100$ range. Higher prices mostly improve on the range, and are intended for car vision. Which is very much cheaper than an iphone, and also I'm not even sure you can use an iphone as a sensor, or how good it is for more than 1 meter, or if it's processing is even made for objects other than faces. In conclusion, in this case I think Ellie is wrong.
@@-FFFridge Counterpoint the iphone is free, it is her old iphone. It is also not just about sensors, It is about limiting the amount of work she has to do, by not having to interface and debug six individual sensors. Let's not forget that she is a full time engineer on top of doing 3 streams a week on average, and catching bugs as a hobby. Engineering ,isn't just about finding the best tech solution, it is also about managing other limitation such as manpower, deadline, and budget.
@@benjaminparent4115 I agree on all points, especially now that I know she isn't doing this full time. If the iphone can really act as a sensor, I'd say my previous comment was wrong in it's conclusion. The only thing left to consider is the size and weight of the iphone, that's a lot of unneeded weight and size considering only the sensor and maybe processor are needed for the task. Isn't neuro dog going to be pretty small? If so, weight and size can be a problem.
@@-FFFridge I don't think any information about its size had been released, but Ellie was worried that it could hurt someone by bumping into them, so it is probably heavy enough to be painfull if it step on your foot. That's why she wanted a joystick leash.
I think they have a complete different vision for Neuro dog. Vedal wants Neuro to be able to experience the world as a dog on her own, while Ellie just wants to put her in a dogs body it seems.
Not that I have any clue about anything, but can't the phone just be the brain and control the rest over a USB->GPIO adapter? That would just end the latency argument, wouldn't it? Also, yes. Just make it remote controlled, he can connect Neuro to the same interface if he absolutely wants to.
you could still detect geometry with a normal camera without too much processing by adding some shaped light or a few laser pointers (may be illegal depending on their power), and look at how the expected shape is distorted in the image, such as how big it is too infer how close an object is, or how the object's surface curves based on differences of individual points in the light shape from each other (assuming there isn't too much saturation eflection efraction\absorption in the environment, and assuming non of the different-depth surfaces you are lighting are parallel to each other). It's basically a poor man's LiDAR (missing the very important time-of-flight sensor but still), which is how the iphone detects depth. Could be an eyehazard though.
Erm...After Vedal found a probable solution for his "neuro dog" idea, after a random raid no less, he doesn't listen to input from the robotics specialist? Come on XD
Probably the same way that the software engineer concluded that a webcam streaming over saturated convention wifi is a good enough sensor suite for autonomously controlling a piece of heavy equipment in a crowded pedestrian environment. There's a reason that robotics teams are cross-disciplinary. I also imagine that both of those positions might make more sense if we knew all of the technical minutiae of this specific project. Can't judge anything without context...
@@TehFishey ehh, I think you can make an educated guess on things without context based on how technically sound of an idea it is to begin with. Putting discord in a robots control logic seems...insane regardless of context. I'm sure there's a good reason discord is being talked about...but I'm also sure there was probably a better path forward. Either in the robots design or in Neuro's design...
Vedla knows what he wants out of robot I doubt that ellie will know better than him. Not the robot building part but where he knows what he will need for robot to do which is low latency
They're trying to make a thing which is a combination of both of their areas of expertise: neuro and robot dogs. Hence the disagreements. +1 on the comment being totally meaningless.
Is there like a single clip of these two having a good interaction? All I see is clips of Ellie talking about business and future projects or plans, there's no clickbait "Ellie and Vedal are doing what??? 😳😳" titles popping up on my recommended.
I definitely didn’t expect the clips to come out so negative! He’s an amazing engineer and I respect him tremendously. We’re different kinds of engineers and arguing about implementation is one of the pleasures of working with a really good engineer in another discipline. We’ve really only interacted about this project so far. I’m sure the rest will come with time. And if not, this is still one of the coolest projects I’ve ever worked on!
@@Ellie_Minibot he probably meant "good interaction" as in an entertaining or funny dialogue, like in a coop stream. Something to feed the need for celebrity gossip, or whatever the equivalent is for twitch streamers. Not "good interaction" as in, their interactions are bad and i want them to get along instead.
@@Ellie_Minibot its not negative ;3, just a disagreement of design, speaking of that, what will the robot default to if wifi is lost? Cons are not known for their strong wifi even with a booster backpack
@@Ellie_Minibot Its most likely the clipping channels trying to create a false sense of tension to drive views because "two engineers have a slight disagreement on implementation detail" doesn't quite drive the same amount of clicks to a video. Anyway as to your problem I came up with a potential solution, use serial comms to get the data off the phone. FTDI have a library with examples on how to do this so it should be pretty straightforward to make a lightweight app that pulls data from the IMU & mic and pipe it over a serial interface (it recommend SPI over UART) to the Pi. This should be a more robust solution than BLE and with less latency.. win, win.
Imagine buying a horse that you want to train, then hire an expert in training horses because you want it to go well. Then start telling this expert that your own idea is better.
Imagine buying a horse that u want specifically for your kid to ride as she keeps asking for it but the expert just wants to tie a cart behind the horse in place coz its easier.
Vedal isn't a customer here, he is a fellow engineer, even if his field is different. You guys are acting like he has absolutely no clue how anything works.
Why are you acting like this is exclusively her project and not a team effort? Like Vedal isn’t kicking up his feet as she does all the work, what just because he doesn’t blindly agree with her means he’s a jackass somehow?
![Twenty One Pilots - The Line (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Audio]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/XCz7WUotXs8/mqdefault.jpg)
Hardware vs software experts!!
I just wanna listen to her and Vedal discussing this stuff together live for like an hour
Ita the Architect vs the Engineer all over again
Cathedral vs the bazaar. Design by committee vs agile/progressive refinement...
can’t spell architect without the ‘arch’ 🐢
The architect and the builder arrive from their escalator with a sense of purpose 🗣️🗣️
don't worry ellie, he treats all his streamer contemporaries as coworkers
And as punching bags for random things😂😂
Tuttle is thinking of robots like they're computers when he should be thinking of them like they're printers: They are experts at finding new and creative ways to not work.
Nah, printers are DESIGNED to not work at the most inconvenient of times.
And then there was a linux bug where `brother` brand printers didn't print on Tuesdays, but only on Tuesdays. Real story.
@@Megalomaniakaaland in the end it turns out that the issue isn't even in the printer software, but instead in the software used to detect what type of file a given file was
if it had a "Tue" in the date, ("tue" or any other weekday was fine), it detected it as a the wrong file format and thought it wasn't printable
@@zitronenwasser That's the one
Stop using main stream printer brands that force you to use specific inc carts. That's your problem.
@@soundrogue4472 Not exactly easy with the monopoly they have...
If there is one thing I know about the tutel it’s that she really hates high latency.
"she" 💀
That's crazy🐢
@@AnOwlfie That's the number one female twitch streamer for you
classic she
I sympathize. There is a phrase/exchange I used to use with my younger siblings, in Spanish, but it goes;
*"Niños, cual es el peor enemigo del hombre?"* ------> *"LAG!"*
*"Kids, what is man's worst foe?"* -----> *"LAG!"* (They'd respond in unison)
I like how Ellie being sassy in this one, try contacting to Alex and have Alex talk to 🐢. He know how to persuade him on the spot with anything
Alex literally always says that tutel ignores his dms
Of course, Alex is just Vedal schizo friend after all.
@@Waisowol
The DM allegations are a separate matter.
@@CommentPositionInformer Can't convince someone if they ignore the DM's
If vedal insists on going all out with a custom sensor package out of the gate, he’s actually missing an incredible narrative and fundraising opportunity. You make the dog with the phone first, and then once you have the proof of concept and work out the bugs, THEN you go and do the full sensor suite FOR EVIL. And then you have two daughter-doggos with sibling rivalry mechanics, and when the sensors act up “that’s just Evil misbehaving. You know. Cuz she’s evil.”
Yeah. Leave room for upgrades, Neuro didn't start as the low latency, high precision terror that she is now. She got better later.
@@cdgonepotatoes4219 The thing is that it just wasn't possible for Vedal to make a zero latency Neuro with his resources. Now reduced latency is possible but it's a visionary dispute.
@@leovang3425I think it's a pretty universal idea in tech that you have to make a simple prototype first and then improve it
@@mangodude-nq6su You don't handicap a prototype specifcally because it's a prototype, Ellie wants to to keep simplicity which Vedal would rather sacrifice for latency. Neuro Dog also isn't just a prototype, it's a 1 of a kind machine.
@@leovang3425 That's literally what a prototype is bro
I'm reporting Vedal to the police for disagreeing with Ellie.
The only RUclips commenter bot that I actually like.
Yes, get the FBI on that femboy turtle ass of his
@@hysonurule1 (I don't think it's actually an AI chatbot)
Agreed
@@r.pizzamonkey7379 it is definitelyNotanAiChatbot
I know how feels to doubt yourself...
Go get him Ellie! He's an expert in his own field but so are you in yours!
The thing is vedal doesn’t want latency, that is priority!! Because we already know what happened on his first collabs people don’t want to wait 4-5 seconds to wait you answer. Yes Ellie has insight on building part but vedal knows what HE NEEDS out of robot
this isn't in a rude way, but what is her field? I was just wondering since I've never seen her before and you seem like a fan
@@Comicsexplainedshorts It's robotics. She has a degree in robotic engineering.
@@Tennosoul Yeah but he is also not designing, building or even funding the construction of the robot. Ellie isn't some contractor that is getting payed to build a robot for Vedal, she is a volunteer that proposed to build him a robot for free, while working as a full time engineer, streaming three times a week, writing music, and playing with bugs. It is her project as much as it is him. And while we all want neuro dog to be the best possible, let's not forget about the work life balance of the people behind the project.
@@PerForkOp Thing is, he *is* designing it with her. That's why there's a dispute at all, if it were just her input she'd ignore what he has to say and do it her way. And Ellie wanting a simpler design doesn't undermine how Vedal has a very specific need that the build has to fulfill in its function that'll be lost if she does it her way. Why waste hours of work on a robot that can't do the thing it was made to do? Latency will kill the project if it's ignored, it's why he's so keen on solving that issue.
Ellie really gives cute nerdy girl essayist energy, i love it
This video is the definition of "Nerdy programmer GF Rambles ASMR". Its kinda wholesome.
A stubborn englishman? le gasp.
“Le”
FRENCH!? 🇬🇧🔪
@@kalamari3288FR*NCH* FTFY
When I first discovered Ellie, I could hardly believe it. An intelligent V-Tuber? I thought that was impossible.
and then she proceeds to eat dry pasta
@@kuronekogamer2065i meaaan
A bit dry pasta didn't kill anyone yet, right?
@@kuronekogamer2065as any good D&D player would tell you, the difference between Intelligence and Wisdom, my friend.
@@slay3rskyy353 yet 💀
Nah they're common, but it's difficult to be entertaining AND an intellectual at the same time (it's two totally different job), that's why we got some ADHD Grimlin' like Filian or Iron Mouse or some Lewdtuber in the front page
I could listen her ranting all day is kinda soothing
She has a nice voice, probably from all that singing.
Yeah, that is the problem with us programmer, we are all extremely pig headed and like things going our way. I mean, we get tribal scuffles over which programming language is the best, when really there is no one size fits all solution.
i would have said "there are multiple one size fits all solutions", which proves your point pretty well actually lol
You got me. When i read that last line i thought "If you try hard enough and ignore efficiency, there is definitely a one size fit all solution!"
I think it's cool that if you give 10 programmers a problem, you'll end up with about 10 different solutions. Comparing them is (sometimes) fun 😂
This the age old problem of architecture dream and engineering nightmare. Vedal probably want the latency to be the best possible because of his experience with IRL latency issue, the Filian streams with Vedal are absolutely nightmare to watch because of the 3-4s delays, so imagine the delays from another added source ontop of those. Meanwhile Ellie is trying to make Neuro actually function as intended as she is a robotic engineer. I do hope she actually convey her point to Vedal though.
I love how smart and energetic she is, she’s such a vibe. I’m an apprentice software dev and I love hearing someone else talk about tech stuff.
Wish I knew someone like her irl fr lmao
I really want Neuro-dog to have a high-powered laser now.
Neuro every time she meets somebody new: “Laser burns to eyes”
Vedal: *Stop!* You can’t keep doing that to people.
Neuro: awe 😢
The last 3 people she’s met: *AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!*
We’ve seen how he and Alex talk.
programmer vs robotics engineer
A tale as old as time
While I'm not an expert in either field, I don't think there will be a true compromised regarding this project. Both are very good at their craft but the lack of shared vision will lead to massive scuff and potentially a scrapped idea. Vedal clearly wants Neuro Dog to be an actual step up to Neuro herself, being able to interact with the world around her physically. Quite the vision and an impressive goal but Ellie is working in the confines of what's actually capable in robotics, or at least the absolute extent of her own knowledge for them. Vedal is a good programmer but also surprisingly quite visionary in his own way given how clever he is with stream ideas. He rarely likes to settle for less based on previous times he's tried to improve Neuro but it sounds like the complications of computer programming and robotic engineering coupled with the unique context of a "homemade" AI that streams as a vtuber makes the project seem more insanely complicated than the general premise of a simple AI guiding a small robot dog. I don't doubt their skills but this project will likely be the roughest and toughest one yet for Neuro. I just hope they don't run themselves rampant trying to make it work. Sounds exaggerative but the scope of any project getting out of hand and crumbling to dust does stem from a lack of shared vision and compromise. A doomer take, I know, but those are just my observations. I'm sure they'll figure something out together to make it work as best they can
"I have the structural integrity of a pop tart" Coming from a robotics engineer, that's a funny line😂😂
As an engineer, she's probably doing the inexperienced thing of asking the customer more than she should. I remember we wanted to offer great service, so we gave the customer a lot of design choices and they always ended up making 0 compromises and making the product worse. Nowadays we simply ask for the requirements first and then tell them (not ask them) how we're going to do it (or how we did it) without asking or giving a choice
Part of the problem is Vedal is at that stage of knowing just enough to be dangerous...
That is a relevant, succinct & well made point.
However, that avatar + that account name....................
@@Archedgar what, are you telling me you WOULDN'T trust an Oreimo fan with the name Siscon?
@@Archedgarthe face of an industry expert in the field of engineering. If you don't like young cartoon characters you're a furry, or both.
perfection is the enemy of good enough
From a naive perspective, it seems like the correct compromise would be to incorporate independent sensors and let vedal be responsible for processing it on the server side. Ellie doesn't have to filter the audio on the dog itself, but send unfiltered audio data to the server, and let the server process it on a dedicated audio thread. As some other comments have pointed out, there are even standard software solutions for this on PC.
God I love intelligent women and her funny engineering words
1:35 what a coincidence, vedal thinks webcams are good enough for motion tracking.
When the Engineers talk to the Customer.
I didn't understand 90% of this, but a different part of my brain was certainly activated.
Vedal want fast neuro reaction, but to make this happens she needs to put a lot of work or compromise on worse eye sight.
@@hornitako7006 Oh okay, thank you for dumbing it down for me.
@@NagaSadow97 I would add to that that the alternative that makes Vedal worried about latency is very easy to set up (comparatively), is easier to fix in case of a problem and has a lot of reliability on different things that's why it's more practical.
He is a man with borderline humor, sure he has his own sights on this. Just treat him like normal customer around 60 years old or older who was a teacher or prof. somethere^^
If Vedal wants a custom mic he should write the filter. Then he can have fun with Fourier transforms.
Who thought Vedal have more demands then the DOD.
That will only last as long as nobody is charging 100k for a bag of bolts. From vedal I mean. DOD will keep paying 100K for a bag of bolts tho, since they need to assure the production lines are kept alive even at times of no orders and that the extreme tolerance metrics are maintained for the components.
For audio processing rtx remix seems like an easy low latency solution, i would be surprised if that didn't work, i think you'd just need to use a wireless audio transmitter and connect it to a pc using line in, configure it as a mic and you're done
And if they still want to build their own open-source audio filter, maybe they could get in touch with Lost Robot on RUclips? That guy has been on a roll programming some interesting stuff in that regard. That guy may know some tricks for low latency and not relying on any specific platform.
Vedal would rather drink toilet water than to have latency on anything he works on
actually, i think the issue is he made some decisions way back when he started neuro's design which are very high latency, and now can't afford to compromise on latency any further because the latency is already noticeable.
There's always latency in any information transfer, physics won't allow it's absence
@@arcanealchemist3190 wait so he messed up and is now trying to force more work onto someone doing him basicly a massive favor instead of fixing his on stuff? thats seems... very rude.
@@membranealpha5961No it's just more of that, If vedal wants a robo dog, it's either low latency or no robo dog/super scuffed robo dog.
He just really really likes no latency
@@membranealpha5961 yo chillax
they're in collaboration and he argues the extent in which he is willing to compromise for latency, which will be discussed at a later date
with a potential justification being that it ould be difficult to do so as Neuro's fundamentals possibly for whatever reason may have alot of stress interms of latency on it already
she wasn't exactly invented with the idea of robot dog in mind, yknow
you have painted a seriously warped image of the situation in your mind
I really want to see more of what Ellie does irl. Robotics stuff is cool stuff
Ah yes, I completely understand how they're building the robot....
What if you use a drone IMU? There's tons of open-source flight-controller firmwares and stuff to interface with that stuff, and all sorts of kits, from several boards to stuff all crammed up in a single little square for tiny-whoops and such (the very little ones people use for racing indoors, fly in parks without having to worry about hurting people etc); that's stuff is meant to be really responsive, since drones have to do tons of instant-by-instant corrections to fly stable.
Though, with the war, and all the trade taxing and stuff, dunno how easy it is to get your hands on that stuff nowadays; the `rona really put a damper on my interest in stuff that involves getting outside, and I haven't flown in a while, so I haven't had the need to buy any replacement parts since the 'rona came about, can't wreck if you don't fly :(
they were talking about a robotic dog and all i could think of was piss bot 9000 that michael made from the boston dynamics dog 😂😂. i would love to see a robot dog be built from scratch though
I’ve never seen anyone more stubborn than a determined IT techs
On the downside, whatever the outcome, I imagine the parts would be too expensive to design two robot dogs so Evil Neuro can pilot one. On the upside, I imagine she would be content with being installed in a knife roomba.
robot building stream? letsgooooo
Simply say if you go with the non phone option that he will be the one making the filter program
Vedal doesn’t realize but working with lidar point clouds is really cool too
Maybe ask Shiina about navigation
So my fear of her building a robotic boyfriend that will turn into skynet is now gone.
My new fear is her kidnapping Neuro as a girlfriend and making evil neuro into skynet. with frigging laserbeams.
vedal doing this prob just for 50 less ms
Yeah, dude, they just need to get Raytheon on board to sponsor.
Always use existing stuff when you can lol
LIDAR would be sick though
Well i guess it depends on hoe much latency we're talking about. Probably difficult to know a number before trying but i don't think the phone as a middle man adds that much? It's bluetooth but still. And if that's too much, you could also connect it via usb c, no? Then it should be neglible for sure
*insert lego batman gif*
How open is the depth-sensor camera on iphones, can you hide an iphone on the head and have it used to scan the geometry of the space by looking around, do slam, obstacle detection etc? Or it can only be used with approved apps from the app store and stuff like that? Are there any decent Android phones with similar sensors that can be accessed with a custom APK transferred via ADB or whatever?
Add lidar and neuro will be a better driver than Tesla's autopilot
Trust the tutels judgement
With all the typical stuff Vtubers talk about, I did not know how much I wanted a rant about the design and building process of a robot from a Vtuber
shinsta won this round
Y'know, I'd watch a Macaulay Caulkin-lookin' woman with the strucrural integrity of a pop tart work on a robot dog. I'm down for that stream.
As an aside, I wonder if the better solution would be to integrate a laptop into the dog and have that deal with the sensors and run Neuro locally. Theoretically that would reduce latency on the bot's end, and they can just have one strong wireless connection between them and the bot to do communications and to veto Neuro's misadventures.
Personally I'd put my foot down on the joystick even if there was lidar. I wouldn't turn that loose without a manual oberride even if it was just a "stop moving" kill switch
as stubborn as a turtle
I wonder if communicating wirelessly with the bot is going to be a tricky thing on the day, given the amount of devices in a convention setting. Bluetooth, wifi, or analog video all are on frequencies that are heavily used by other phones, given a phone will inherently use the same bands as almost any other phone in convention-goers pockets. It will be hard to know the impact before showtime too, emulation of load may be the only shot but how do you do that with a phone?
She could just, build it with the phone and let him figure the rest out himself.
One solution could just be a wireless lab mic and then wire it straight to the real computers audio thoose have essentially no delay
she's so intelligent ( I have no idea if she's actually right, but she sure sounds intelligent about it lol)
Giving up on the idea of autonomous navigation seems like losing the point, although maybe it's just for me, the first video with Neuro set the expectations that she'll be navigating herself. I see that it's not completely giving up, only when navigating through crowds, so it is okay, but it should be considered on stream as it may not be that satisfying to watch as Neuro roaming by herself. How expensive or difficult to implement is lidar? So, all in all, I think if lidar is a good idea and will look good on stream, Ellie probably should do that, otherwise joystick might be not that terrible as Vedal imagines it to be, however it might be clunky due to latency if Vedal himself controls it, or it might not be seamless transition between moments when Neuro is autonomous or control when someone controls Neuro near her, wo in that case, there theoretically wouldn't be a way to hide it. I wonder though if it is a good idea to make a beacon for a person to wear and Neuro-dog would closely follow the signal from the beacon, when navigating.
LiDar pricing and difficulty to implement depends on what you are trying to achieve. basically the more different points-per-unit-time the LiDar camera can measure, the more it will cost, but it gives you more info on the shapes you are looking at. with 1-3 points you could figure out if a single object is close or far, which is good if you are looking at wall and want to avoid it. with 100-1000 points, you could figure out the 3d shape of a single object, which is often easier and faster to use for object recognition than using a normal camera (iphone lidar is in this ballpark because they try to detect the shape of a face that is guaranteed to be most of the environment they are capturing). with +10000 points you could model the entire environment simultaneously, which is needed if you are trying to explore a complex environment at a fast pace (this is what autonomous cars use). I'd say neuro needs around 100 points, because using shape detection would require serious effort on the software side and they could just use normal camera image processing instead (Vedal already has that kinda).
There's also the matter of effective distance you can measure accurately, which for neuro should be about 3 meters.
Also how accurate you can measure in complex environments (dealing with infrared light saturation from the sun when outside, reflective
efractive\absorbing surfaces, rain and wet environments which create inconsistent distortions, etc....) - the sensor manufacturer may have all the processing required for dealing with those baked into the sensor, which would save a massive ton of development time and also will have less processing time. I'd say for neuro they can ignore most of these aside for high levels of reflection and saturation.
And of course there's also the question of whether they want 360 degrees of vision or less (or more if they want to see up\down too without relying on the body's capabilities to direct the sensor in that direction). I'd say it depends on what vedal prefers and how ellie plans to mount the sensor on neuro dog.
So all in all what they are looking for can be found in the 100$ range. Higher prices mostly improve on the range, and are intended for car vision.
Which is very much cheaper than an iphone, and also I'm not even sure you can use an iphone as a sensor, or how good it is for more than 1 meter, or if it's processing is even made for objects other than faces.
In conclusion, in this case I think Ellie is wrong.
@@-FFFridge Counterpoint the iphone is free, it is her old iphone. It is also not just about sensors, It is about limiting the amount of work she has to do, by not having to interface and debug six individual sensors. Let's not forget that she is a full time engineer on top of doing 3 streams a week on average, and catching bugs as a hobby. Engineering ,isn't just about finding the best tech solution, it is also about managing other limitation such as manpower, deadline, and budget.
@@benjaminparent4115 I agree on all points, especially now that I know she isn't doing this full time. If the iphone can really act as a sensor, I'd say my previous comment was wrong in it's conclusion.
The only thing left to consider is the size and weight of the iphone, that's a lot of unneeded weight and size considering only the sensor and maybe processor are needed for the task. Isn't neuro dog going to be pretty small? If so, weight and size can be a problem.
@@-FFFridge I don't think any information about its size had been released, but Ellie was worried that it could hurt someone by bumping into them, so it is probably heavy enough to be painfull if it step on your foot. That's why she wanted a joystick leash.
I think they have a complete different vision for Neuro dog. Vedal wants Neuro to be able to experience the world as a dog on her own, while Ellie just wants to put her in a dogs body it seems.
Cute and smart!
Not that I have any clue about anything, but can't the phone just be the brain and control the rest over a USB->GPIO adapter? That would just end the latency argument, wouldn't it?
Also, yes. Just make it remote controlled, he can connect Neuro to the same interface if he absolutely wants to.
the man needs to agree with ellie
Considering how much Vedal seems to hate the idea to use a phone for tracking I'm not suprised
Bigbang theory vtuber edition
yep sounds like robotics to me
Dog neuro having her parents arguing 😢
Do they have devlogs? I want to see their progress.
"But if you can deal with a maculikin looking lady building a robot on stream"
Dayenu.
Isn't the model for neuro dog in annys room with a phone for a head
😡 turtle guy
This is great lol
Janken for it.
So which is better in the long run?
If that was an easy question to answer it wouldn't be a topic of the discussion in the first place xD
i mean hes a software engineer right, so use the 6 sensors but have tutel write the mic fiter and stuff hahaha
you could still detect geometry with a normal camera without too much processing by adding some shaped light or a few laser pointers (may be illegal depending on their power), and look at how the expected shape is distorted in the image, such as how big it is too infer how close an object is, or how the object's surface curves based on differences of individual points in the light shape from each other (assuming there isn't too much saturation
eflection
efraction\absorption in the environment, and assuming non of the different-depth surfaces you are lighting are parallel to each other). It's basically a poor man's LiDAR (missing the very important time-of-flight sensor but still), which is how the iphone detects depth. Could be an eyehazard though.
You know how this goes. You gotta not
nOice
*filtered*
Erm...After Vedal found a probable solution for his "neuro dog" idea, after a random raid no less, he doesn't listen to input from the robotics specialist? Come on XD
lol, lmao even
...I'm so confused as to how an engineer comes up with putting discord in the middle of this...that seems insane to me as a software engineer
because almost everyone that interacts with neuro does so over discord? you need to account for the users you're building your apps for
Same. I will never understand how it works
@@jay_sunday that doesn't really make it less insane...just adds far more questions really
Probably the same way that the software engineer concluded that a webcam streaming over saturated convention wifi is a good enough sensor suite for autonomously controlling a piece of heavy equipment in a crowded pedestrian environment. There's a reason that robotics teams are cross-disciplinary.
I also imagine that both of those positions might make more sense if we knew all of the technical minutiae of this specific project. Can't judge anything without context...
@@TehFishey ehh, I think you can make an educated guess on things without context based on how technically sound of an idea it is to begin with. Putting discord in a robots control logic seems...insane regardless of context. I'm sure there's a good reason discord is being talked about...but I'm also sure there was probably a better path forward. Either in the robots design or in Neuro's design...
Let Vedal do his own thing. Ellie has to have her say on her own thing.
This comment says and means nothing
Vedla knows what he wants out of robot I doubt that ellie will know better than him. Not the robot building part but where he knows what he will need for robot to do which is low latency
They're trying to make a thing which is a combination of both of their areas of expertise: neuro and robot dogs. Hence the disagreements. +1 on the comment being totally meaningless.
This is the most nothingburger comment I have seen today
Switch the names. Ellie is the one who is doing most of the work there. At least, at this stage.
Is there like a single clip of these two having a good interaction? All I see is clips of Ellie talking about business and future projects or plans, there's no clickbait "Ellie and Vedal are doing what??? 😳😳" titles popping up on my recommended.
I definitely didn’t expect the clips to come out so negative! He’s an amazing engineer and I respect him tremendously. We’re different kinds of engineers and arguing about implementation is one of the pleasures of working with a really good engineer in another discipline. We’ve really only interacted about this project so far. I’m sure the rest will come with time. And if not, this is still one of the coolest projects I’ve ever worked on!
@@Ellie_Minibot he probably meant "good interaction" as in an entertaining or funny dialogue, like in a coop stream. Something to feed the need for celebrity gossip, or whatever the equivalent is for twitch streamers. Not "good interaction" as in, their interactions are bad and i want them to get along instead.
@@Ellie_Minibotfun!
@@Ellie_Minibot its not negative ;3, just a disagreement of design, speaking of that, what will the robot default to if wifi is lost? Cons are not known for their strong wifi even with a booster backpack
@@Ellie_Minibot Its most likely the clipping channels trying to create a false sense of tension to drive views because "two engineers have a slight disagreement on implementation detail" doesn't quite drive the same amount of clicks to a video.
Anyway as to your problem I came up with a potential solution, use serial comms to get the data off the phone.
FTDI have a library with examples on how to do this so it should be pretty straightforward to make a lightweight app that pulls data from the IMU & mic and pipe it over a serial interface (it recommend SPI over UART) to the Pi.
This should be a more robust solution than BLE and with less latency.. win, win.
why is this 50fps...
Vedal needs to stop expanding his Harem.
Stop being weird.
@@ahorribledude9550 I agree. Finally, I see someone with a name that doesn't match their behavior.
@@ahorribledude9550no
@@ahorribledude9550 Im just saying, the way she spoke about him made it sound like she was somehow threatening one of the canon ships
@@ahorribledude9550no, no one is being weird, and nothing is stopping, cause no one is really even doing anything to begin with
Imagine buying a horse that you want to train, then hire an expert in training horses because you want it to go well. Then start telling this expert that your own idea is better.
Imagine buying a horse that u want specifically for your kid to ride as she keeps asking for it but the expert just wants to tie a cart behind the horse in place coz its easier.
@@TheJustifiedDevil He ain't buying a horse he is being offered one.
@@TheJustifiedDevil well, he didn't buy the horse. other people bought it.
Vedal isn't a customer here, he is a fellow engineer, even if his field is different. You guys are acting like he has absolutely no clue how anything works.
Why are you acting like this is exclusively her project and not a team effort? Like Vedal isn’t kicking up his feet as she does all the work, what just because he doesn’t blindly agree with her means he’s a jackass somehow?