Relief Society President Stays Active after Losing Mormon Faith (PIMO) - Shannon Lamb | Ep. 1894
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- Опубликовано: 13 июн 2024
- In this captivating interview, Shannon Lamb takes us on a profound journey through her experiences within the Mormon faith, unveiling the intricate tapestry of her personal and spiritual evolution. Shannon's narrative is a thought-provoking exploration of the complexities surrounding sexuality, gender roles, and institutional authority within the Church. Her courageous questioning of long-held beliefs, her encounters with Church leaders, and her advocacy for a more inclusive and compassionate community paint a vivid portrait of a woman determined to navigate the path between tradition and progress.
Episode Show Notes: www.mormonstories.org/portfol...
Chapters
00:00:00 Shannon’s Intentions
00:03:00 The new application process for being on Mormon Stories
00:04:30 The beginning of her Mormon Story
00:10:10 Rating churches on guilt and shame around sexuality
00:20:30 Overall the messaging was pretty positive, education, etc.
00:21:10 Attending BYU
00:24:00 Called on a mission to Honduras
00:34:40 Experiences on her mission
00:45:00 Qualities she was looking for in a husband
00:54:50 Trying to have kids after marriage
01:03:50 Impressions of the Spirit that she would have five kids
01:13:45 Challenges in her marriage
01:22:48 She was called as the Relief Society President
01:27:00 Feeling inadequate to know how to help
01:34:25 Talking with her husband about the Book of Abraham
01:39:25 Was her ex-husband having a faith crisis?
01:44:05 Prop 8
01:52:45 November 2015 Policy
01:55:20 Looking into the Book of Mormon
02:00:25 Meeting with a Mormon General Authority
02:11:00 Starting a study group to discuss the historical issues
02:18:48 The Handbook of Instructions
02:47:25 Responding to the Women’s Conference
02:55:20 Saying in class that she is not on the covenant path
03:03:00 Her beliefs in Jesus
03:11:30 Finding like-minded people is the most important thing
03:17:20 How can we help leaders see and understand?
03:18:00 Lightning round of questions
03:26:50 Why it’s worth it to her to stay in the church
03:31:10 Has she been mistreated or disciplined because of her beliefs?
04:09:00 We need to let go of this being the best way to do things
04:11:00 What about people who feel there’s no good to the Church?
04:15:15 Are there any Mormon beliefs you still have?
04:18:15 ReStore Conference
04:20:00 Invitation to other PIMOs
___________________
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Not to flex but that's my mom🔥🔥🔥
Cool Carson your mom is beautiful inside and out I'm not a Mormon but I think you're mom is amazing
That's a totally fair flex. She's awesome!
And a great Mom you have!
She’s a beautiful soul! I’d definitely flex!
Flex away!
Im a member of the LDS church. Shannon is the friend I NEED but don’t have. Thank you for speaking up and presenting a way to still be a member of the church❤️😉❤️
me too!
I enjoyed the interview and 100% respect her perspective. But, I just couldn’t. It would be like staying in an abusive relationship, telling the abuser “let’s stay together, but we are just friends now.”
...while the abuse of others still continues
Yep, she told on herself with “well MY kids aren’t gay”. Can’t possibly empathize unless it’s something that impacts her life, typical…
That’s how I feel, too.
Yeah I’m starting to become confused here going wait a minute…..
I feel the same way. I was in as a non believer for about 3 years. I was in the young women's presidency and when people found out that I was essentially omnist they went to the bishop to have me released. I ended up asking to be released and left. I couldn't stay in a place where I had to be quiet or teach something I believed was harmful. I don't think this is an easy thing to do. You definitely give up a lot of yourself.
During Prop 8 my wife asked me what was wrong with gay marriage, and the best I could do is say God or the Brethren must have an important reason for it.
A few years later I was watching the PBS documentary on the Mormons, in which the Church participated voluntarily, so it would have been considered a faithful source. I watched as Elder Packer sheepishly admitted to labeling gays, feminists and intellectuals as enemies of the Church, and Elder Oaks uttered the infamous phrase, “it’s wrong to criticize leaders of the Church, even if the criticism is true.”
Those statements violated the spirit of truth that I had been taught countless times by the Church, and I never accepted them. Shortly after that Carrie Jenkins told a ridiculous public lie about there being no demand for caffeinated soft drinks at BYU and I stumbled upon Bruce R McConkie’s “forget what we said, we didn’t know what the hell we were talking about (paraphrased 😊)” sentiment about the race ban.
The brethren no longer get the benefit of the doubt from me on matters of conscientious objection. They’ve shown time and time again the tendency toward pharisaical extremism, and so even as a faithful member I see spiritual danger in blindly following the prophet.
Amen!!! 💯
I campaigned against Prop 8. There was a canvassing meeting at in an auditorium at Occidental college in Eagle Rock. The person at the podium asked all heteros too stand up and say why we were there. I went on about Love and marriage, hetero divorce rates, and especially family-only hospital visits in religious hospitals. I live in Valley Village. Their were lots of Yes on 8 yard signs. My friends and I counter acted with No on 8 signs. Shockingly it passed anyway. The California State Supreme Court called it for what it was: UNCONSTITUTIONAL!
@@marysalisbury9270 you were ahead of your time!
Hi @blueshirtwithatie ! My thoughts exactly.
🙌AMEN! I second that!! 🙌
Former LDS here. I literally could NOT straddle the fence as she has done for so long. Seems she has rationalized quite a lot. For me this would be like serving 2 masters. Still,, a great interview & perspective.
I always thought that I don't have time to be in something half way
I don’t believe everything a political party, social group, college etc. believes- but I can still attend events and be apart of the effort…
Once you no longer see it as “true” you get to decide what value it has in your life…it’s very freeing
@@cmr4622it just depends on what value you get from it. Being a “cafeteria” member of any group is freeing
It’s such a difficult situation to navigate. I for one am nonbelieving (the church is not what I had previously believed it to be) but I have family who are all in and it’s such a tender thing for me to navigate. I’m trying to do as little harm as possible to myself and those around me. So sometimes it does feel like “serving two masters” and it can be exhausting and I have to take care of myself but it’s not so black and white for me.
I struggled with this one. If a church claims to be true and turns out to be lies and resist being transparent or changing, there is nothing I want to change about it. Kudos to her as it seems this her mission to make change but for my happiness I want nothing to do with it and hope it fails. I don’t want the church to change. I want it to cease to exist.
Same. For me, Life has been so much better leaving the church and spending time with family, going to baseball games on Sundays and not doing church stuff. All of the weekly processing was bad enough when I was TBM. I don’t need that poison in my life now. … the real change in the church happens with the people leaving.
Same here. I have no use for it.
I’m not religious and do not think most churches are redeemable. Individuals can be a different story if the conditions are right.
I say that as someone who went to a fairly progressive and moderate southern baptist/evangelical church - as far as evangelical churches go.
I still adore my childhood preacher. He is an amazing man who refused to take the low road on any given topic AND simultaneously refused to take the love the sinner/hate the sin bait.
He was amazing and I could not tolerate the things many said about him and tried to do to him when I was growing up.
I wanted no part in that.
He’s still going, without my involvement. He was kicked out for marrying a divorced woman after he was widowed. He was well aware that divorce and homosexuality = the same grade of sin in his doctrine.
He was kicked out for being seen talking to someone drinking a beer. That person needed help.
He has been invited back after a period of discussion more than once because he is a stellar person.
I do understand not wanting to give up on people .
I’ve been in love with a person that developed a drug addiction.
I remember thinking i could save him.
I also know that you can’t change some people until they are ready and they will drag you down in the process.
It’s tricky. I can respect someone not wanting to give up.
I can also respect people saying enough is enough.
Look, if you don’t believe it and you stick around you are a liar. That’s it. Have integrity and leave.
Aside from your personal integrity and honesty, you shouldn’t want to prop up an organization built upon lies.
She prefers the comfort of lies and bigots rather than facing the truth of it.
If you believe in making blanket statements directed towards people with whom you disagree with, you might as well stay in church. We. Are. All. On. Our own journey based on very different backgrounds and seeing through each a different lens. If we can't learn compassion for one another, then we have much to learn and far to go. @hamwithcheese586
Loved having Margi the past couple interviews!!! She has the best insight :)
Yes.
Thank you! Shannon! This has helped so much! Living in Utah, I don’t know if we are as progressive as Virginia. But knowing that there are people feeling like me helps tons! I feel like a cafeteria Mormon, the shelf broke, and now I’m in the middle of picking what I believe. I feel this life is a journey and about building relationship with others and with God and Christ. And the Lord speaks to all his children in the way that they hear him. Not just Latter Day Saints.
Well said Kristie. I made a comment myself about being an Ecumenical Christian. Good to see you maintaining your Faith in Jesus Christ, regardless of the type of church
OMG I love the idea of a nevermo panel!
I’m a nevermo, but my question would be is who would be considered for such a panel and what would the intention or purpose of the nevermo panel be?
I’ve had friends and colleagues who were devout Mormons and they seemed like nice people. I also tried to befriend some Mormon missionaries in my area even though it was never my intention to ever convert to Mormonism.
I’ve done some reading into the Mormon beliefs off and on for several years, but what really sent me down the Mormon rabbit hole was the FLDS stuff that made the news and more recently the Ruby Franke case.
I love this idea too. I’m nevermo, faded JW. Faithful listener to Mormon Stories; it was a big part of my waking up and deconstruction.
Not to say, “I am a perfect candidate, but an investigator/nevermo, like myself would be a good oanel member for that. Especially someone who has open minded/mixed feelings about the church, has been a “long time” investigator, and/or practices on their own- either due to not being worthy of baptism or just not wanting to make that commitment over personal/moral conflictions with doctrine.
Example: You believe in the priesthood and their power of discernment, but there are doctrines you don’t believe in, so you still attend but don’t even try to become a member in fear of being not truthful in worthiness interviews…
Kept far too busy to actually stop and look at how life is tracking.I was RS Pres twice,2 different Wards.Thefirst time I was released the Bishop told me there were sisters who did not like me, i stewed over that for a week. I finally confronted the Bishop the following Sunday,and told him his behaviour at releasing me was unconscionable.Thst was another nail in the belief coffin for me. I was told that my issue was that I am too confrontational, I personally did not care,I just called things as I saw them.
Oh yes… released because I expressed an interest in handwriting analysis. A member I met at the family history center was an expert and testified in a legal capacity…. How interesting! Would the sisters like to hear about this? 🧐The bishop said, “trust me to know what is best for you.”
@@kimlengning8859 Oh my goodness,I love the way they think they know how to live your life for you!However I still have my membership,but do my own thing these days. Good luck in your future. 🌹
Thank you for having more women on the show. We are amazing!
This!
Men are amazing also
They’ve always had a lot of women on!
What are you even talking about? They have many women on the show regularly. Comments like this are just weird.
The interesting part of this story is she keeps saying I did what was expected of me. Not once is it what she wants or what makes her happy. If all you do with your life is what some else wants then you are destined for unhappiness.
I cannot imagine just bowing and trampling on the rights of other people because it was “expected”, never mind the happiness angle. The yes on prop 8 stuff is messed up.
And she STILL hasn’t changed because “well, MY kids aren’t gay”
Thank you Shannon and Margi and John. This was a great episode that I will listen to again. I am a former RS president who is currently PIMO and I needed to hear Shannon’s voice.
Fascinating! I love the honesty and courage of exmos. They do the hard work of letting evidence change their beliefs.
💯
The problem with that is that members of the church will also find "evidence" to support their beliefs. I've seen it. I've seen those books too. Especially with the internet, you can always find evidence to support ANYTHING.
This was a great interview. I’m having a hard time understanding how she stays in, especially with her kids. She’s showing them that this church is valuable to her and putting them in Sunday school classes where they are being taught strict law of chastity (this includes being anti lgbtq), word of wisdom, JS’s first vision, this being the one true church, follow the prophet, the temple is the goal, etc. I wouldn’t be comfortable exposing my kids to that when I don’t believe any of it is true. Saying that, I have an 11 year old daughter who still attends sometimes (my husband takes her, but he’s non believing like me and doesn’t participate) and is involved in the youth program. She loves the social aspect of church but I have to be really vigilant about knowing what they’re teaching her and countering that with what I believe but also giving her space to figure out what she believes. This is all so complicated and I think it’s great that people are having these conversations. The more we talk about it the healthier it is going to get.
I was on board until she got to the part where her kids didn’t want to go, and she, in a sense, made them go. Putting kids in the youth program today makes me uncomfortable.
I'm pretty sure John and Margi have said that that approach (having the kids participate and then trying to counter all of the problematic things they'd learned) was not effective in their family, and their kids still internalized lots of harmful ideas.
@aadams8419 She said she doesn't make them go. If they don't want to go they have to do something service oriented for her family. She's also allowing them to decide if they want to believe it or not (which her older son does). I think allowing your kids to choose their religious beliefs is better than forcing them to believe or forcing them to not believe
@@nazcraz11 yeah it’s been a very difficult situation to navigate. We are just doing our best. My daughter seems to enjoy it just to be with her friends. She had an opportunity to go on a youth temple trip and declined. She’s been once but realized she didn’t really like it. So I’m hopeful she’ll continue distancing herself. She only goes to church 1-2 times a month. But like I said, it’s been difficult to navigate. But I feel like telling her she absolutely can’t go would do more damage to our relationship than I’m willing to inflict.
@@DanielleRoy23 I agree with that last point. It sounds like you're handling it as well as possible. Good for you.
As a non-Mormon and completely non-religious person, these stories are all very fascinating to me. I never had any idea that Mormonism was so cultish. Shannon is very well spoken and obviously very intelligent.
I find her self awareness really remarkable, like when she mentioned how it works for her because she has a supportive ward and past social capital but it might not be the case for others and leaving would be better for them. She knows her privileges but she also uses them to advocate for others, for example when she speaks out and questions things publicly. It takes a lot of courage to do so.
This interview gives me the same feeling I sometimes get when listening to the "At Last She Said It" podcast. I'm in some ways so jealous of Shannon's situation. When I was in the church, I advocated for "realness" and loved it! Later on, I felt so trapped when I entered my faith crisis but worked for BYU and felt like that nuance and freedom of choice wasn't available to me without huge consequences. It's so hard to return to an institution that took away my job because I was questioning. This interview reveals the pain I'm still processing. I admire Shannon's perspective and am also jealous that she is able to stay authentically and had space to make that decision. It's complicated! I wish we could break the "us versus them" narrative. Being on the outside hurts sometimes.
Agree! I love their “we don’t believe our own stuff” segments.
I am so sorry this happened to you. I know that the only way I am able to stay in and be as unaffected as I am is because I didn't have anything significant that the church could take from me or punish me with.
“Why can’t we take from church whatever was good for us?” I’ve never heard this idea but I do love it. I’ve deconstructed my Christianity down to agnosticism but I’m building back up a spirituality. Church CAN be whatever we want it to be!! I struggled with this perspective at first but I think it’s beautiful.
Why do you need a church? Maybe a new hobby in a group and practicing your faith in private is the solution..
I don’t think the leaders would agree that’s where the “can’t” actually comes in to play
I feel that church should be about truth. Otherwise, we are just lying to ourselves which isn’t healthy. Ultimately it comes down to seeking out what is true and not necessarily what we want to be true.
She is awesome and is the guest that most closely relates to me. Thanks for your time Shannon, John and Margi!
This is the interview that rings true for me the most. I'm not Mormon, just a mainline protestant and I have found that my ministers being progressive and welcoming to doubt have made it easy for me to manage all my faith transitions. Thank you for speaking about this!
My husband and I try to walk the middle way with regards to the LDS church. It’s not an easy path, but we have found it to be worth it.
Shannon’s story was fascinating! Love, lover her courage, strength and frankness!! Her perspective on changing the church is so interesting. She should run for political office.
Once I researched and learned the church wasn't true, there was no more going back! I immediately stopped wearing my garments...stopped going. I had to get that noose off my neck!
Good for you :)
Ooh I’m actually here for the start!! So excited for this one
I feel the same about the scriptures. I rarely feel inspired by them and hearing other members tell me how much they love the scriptures, only made me feel worst about myself. I draw directly from god through sincere prayer followed by deep meditations. Scriptures are not written by god, they are biographies of imperfect men with imperfect memories, translated imperfectly.
I’ve always felt exactly the same. Thank you for articulating it so beautifully, and truthfully. 2:28:01
I am glad to see people in our Gen talking more openly about marriage, childbirth, etc.
It does need to be said.
That's what I call the new church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
The church of Jesus brother of Satan, son of the king of Kolob 😂😂😂😂😂
This new church has to disavow itself from its past!
Where do you cut it off?
@@craiglawrence7576 Throw out the Book of Mormon and meet for cookouts and games on Sunday.
As a never mormon, what she's talking about is such an odd phenomenon that I don't think i'll ever truly understand. I cannot fathom being some place that I honestly and factually know isn't correct simply for the culture. But i do applaud Shannon for sticking to her guns and disrupting the narrative.
Nevermo, practicing Catholic, devout listener, love the idea of a nevermo panel 👏 pick me! 🙋♀️
Hoping that Shannon's current leaders don't get pushback from their superiors who watched or heard this.
Shannon should check out the UU church. You get to meet people and sing hymns. They focus on social justice and advocacy rather than contribute to bigotry and hate.
And John knocks it out of the park yet again! This goes in the books as one of the great stories. 👍
Thank you!!!
I hope to hear many more PIMO stories. Thanks Shannon, Margi and John.
My biggest takeaway is finally understanding the carryover frustrations for black and the priesthood. That mom frustration for not being allowed to witness her daughter’s baptism is the same carryover frustration for our black members. Huge impression. There are real and genuine carryover frustrations. Thanks MSP. I’m changed in a more understanding and thoughtful way.
As a Latina, psychologist, woman, new mom... I loved this episode. So much insight.
Shannon, I dont comprehend how you can listen to the talks and lessons on Sunday, if you can't handle listening to the GC talks. It's all the same. And you would know you're hearing toxic or untrue information a large portion of the time. Listening to that stuff made me so upset that I ultimately just couldn't handle it anymore.
I can relate. Part of me wishes I could be PIMO because my husband is still believing and he takes our kids to church every Sunday. But I just can’t stand listening to what is said at church every week. I don’t know how people can sit through it and not be triggered. If I had to go every week, I think I’d have to keep my earbuds in and be listening to a podcast or something for the full two hours.
Masochism 😂
Shannon is great. I really enjoyed this.
I’m a never Mormon and love the idea of hearing from others who are in the same boat. I see so many similarities between the Mormon church and my evangelical baptist upbringing!
Most of the top leadership knows the church is not true, but they cannot leave because the the church owns them and pays them lf they leave they are in the street l served a mission. served in the temple and held all the teaching callings in the church l cried for 3 weeks when l found out the truth Yes it is not easy to leave but worth the peace of mind
It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
I agree that yes there has to be many at the top that know the church is fake; however, most of the GA and especially the Apostles, and First Presidency are extremely successful in their own right. Most of them are already set for life regardless of the church. I believe the real reason they do not leave the church is giving up their political power, and knowing the sheer level of embarrassment and backlash they would face. Would not be surprised AT ALL if the church forces top leaders to sign NDAs that prevents them from talking negatively or releasing secrets about the church.
Making false accusations isn’t cool
@@beau4307 Remind me who approves additions to the scriptures like the Gospel Topics Essays, including admissions that were previously "anti-Mormon" lies? Remind me who has approval to change the intro to the Book of Mormon from saying that the Lamanites are the ancestors of Native Americans to saying they're among the ancestors. Remind me who said the church is as honest as they know how to be while ripping pages out of Joseph Smith's journal and hiding it away. The might be pious, but they aren't honest.
I have a relative who was one of the Q15 and I guarantee you he was 100% a believer. I feel like he had sunk so much of his life into it at that point That he felt he had no other choice but to stay the course.
Yay for early announcements!
I had 5 in eight years also. Then the sixth arrived 4 years later. I’m an Octogenarian! I don’t know how I survived.
Shannon gave such a fascinating and unique perspective in the way she just stays in the church and keeps taking blows. For me personally, it would be torture to live this way, like never letting a scab wound heal. The Brethren don’t deserve such a wonderful person like this among their ranks.
Agreed
When she said there's so much "goodness" in the church at the beginning, I was sad for her that she doesn't think she can create or find "goodness" outside the church. The amount of energy she must spend trying to make changes from within...props to her, but how much good could she offer outside of the church.
I love this. As a PIMO it is great to hear other stories. People are PIMO's for lots of reasons. Mine is because I have a believing spouse and it is easier on the marriage.
I love the bravery that post encompasses. PIMO for 10 years. Stayed for similar reasons, just changed to no garments/testimony/leadership callings. Shared my views when asked, but never pushed it with my wife, family as I felt they had a right to their spiritual journey as well as I do. While its very hard for me to go to church at this point with Salt Lake leadership doubling down on absurdity on so many issues, my wife is now PIMO, so we can discuss and make rational decisions together at this point.
I just want to say Margi is such a beautiful person inside and out.
I love this story so much. This lady is so awesome
Greetings from Honduras. I'm from Tegucigalpa and served my mission in San Pedro Sula (93-95).
I loved so many things about this interview. She was great! She articulated everything so well. Even the things I didn’t agree with or wouldn’t do- because she spoke so well it didn’t bother me.
You rock! Such a fresh perspective for people in and out of high demand religions. You are a pioneer 🎉 I love how bold you are and also how much you love yourself and others 💖
When I left the church, long ago, any making public of rejecting the Holy Ghost (presumably from whom you received your testimony that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that the Book of Mormon it the Word of God) would have been an instant reason for excommunication. This is why Shannon's appearance on your program would definitely, back then, have been the beginning of the end for her. The church sure has changed, and this is still quite new to me. I have just recently come across your program and Alyssa Grenfell's, and what I'm learning is amazing and wonderful. When I had my spiritual crisis there was nothing -- but I did hear about a then, out-of-print book called, "No Man Knows My History," which I called the publisher for and bought one of their leftover copies directly from them. Everything was an eye opener, and directly responsible for it all falling apart for me. If J. Smith was a fraud, then the church is, too. Thank you for what you are doing!
Im loving where Shannon has come to in her beliefs. It's very Unitarian.
I can’t help but wonder if she will still feel the same in 5 years and still be active. I’m reminded of David Bokovoy and where he was 5 years ago compared to today.
I've been in this space for 10 years now. Guess we'll see!
@@shannonlamb7912 Great episode. Thanks. You are awesome. I subscribed to your RUclips channel. 🙂
Re. Shannon saying leaders need to have had a faith crisis to be effective leaders. Trust me, most people who are human have had faith crises. The problem in the culture of the church, LDS members are not allowed to share those faith crises among family, friends, or church leaders. If you are having a crises and share that with your bishop, you get penalized. You may be told to surrender the temple recommend. You may be relieved of duties related to a calling. You may be told to not take the sacrament, with other ward members wondering what you did wrong. It is easier to shut up, have the faith crises in secret, and never tell anyone.
💯
That is 💯 the sad truth!! If you are fortunate to have at least one close friend who understands what you’re struggling with, than it does relieve some of the internal pressure. However, I think most active members experiencing a faith crisis feel like they just can’t speak their truth because they will be penalized or judged as weak or “lead astray.”
So true! At least my husband and I are on the same page, but as far as telling extended family. No thanks! I’ve seen how they have reacted with others that have fallen away, the labels, the lectures, the purposeful preaching feeling like you always have to defend your new beliefs. Also, our parents are to old, it would just cause them to much stress and heartache. Our children are all adults and know we don’t believe everything we are told, we’ve never shared with them the depth of what we have learned that has caused us to question so much. We also want them to find their own path and relationship with God. It’s now their journey in what they feel is truth for them.
@@kristiefrost7149 We're walking the same tightrope. Elderly TBM parents, and 9 kids I have raised in the faith, seven of whom have served missions at this point. A great struggle for me is doing the least amount of harm to my kids now that I no longer believe. Having my foundation crumble was hard enough, but at least I was somewhat in control of the process. So I focus on just what you noted, helping them to find their own path and relationship with God.
I think there are a lot of PIMO people still active in the church. The younger generation in the church also is less active than a generation ago. In my stake few people see the relevance of seminary and institute classes. The research is projecting 86% of youth will not be in the church by the age of 25.
I’m actually a bit surprised that Shannon was called a PIMO here, because she talked about her active engagement as a nonbeliever, as she still saw compelling purpose and value in promoting the good aspects of the Church. That doesn’t sound very “mentally out” to me.
As a kid in the 80s/90s I remember specifically experiencing imposter syndrome and wondering what other members truly believed. Transparency has not been favorable to the Church, and the Church is responding by doubling down on truth claims and orthodoxy, rather than addressing issues head on.
Sadly, this approach is driving a wedge between the youth who grow up in a bubble and those who are more grounded in reality and pragmatism. My teenage daughter wants less and less to do with Church because of how her orthodox leaders and peers make her feel. It has nothing to do with truth claims-whether something happened physically or on Joseph’s head has no bearing on the divinity or correctness in a given teaching. Those who actually want to apply the teachings of truth, kindness, love, etc. are finding the Church to be a hostile environment to those imperatives.
@@aBrewster29 There are many PIMOs that will promote the good aspects of the church while openly discussing the it's failings. I have seen great things done by the church, particularly this past year. My ward is like a community or family. We helped families would otherwise be living in homeless tent encampments like you see in city parks in my city. Got them into housing. Paid their rent, storage and moving costs, food, hotel stays until they found a place. The welfare part when done right confirms to me the church is doing good. However there are other areas where the thinking of leaders in SLC is generations behind. The Church does show love and compassion in some areas, but lacks in others. I have also witnessed lives changed by following the teachings of Jesus Christ. However, getting people to do those things is another matter.
This was an incredible interview and Shannon is doing important work. I’m loving these interviews with badass, empathetic women who are trying to make the world and the Mormon world better for everyone in it. ❤
As a fellow Virginian I will say it’s much more progressive here. Im not a member anymore but I’m still friends with Mormons and a lot of them are great people and some are pretty open minded
Excellent episode! We do need people in different phases of faith. Thank you for providing timestamps so promptly!
She is doing awesome in a lucky bubble of leadership roulette. I wish this was the potential environment for everyone.
We are very alike in our views! Thank you for speaking out!!
I appreciate this woman’s strength and this narrative to just start creating a different conversation
Saying that the church works for you because you don’t have gay kids is deeply problematic. I sincerely hope that Shannon can get out and find community outside of the church. If you don’t believe the church history and you don’t like their current views, then why are you staying? You literally disagree on its past and present. I can’t stress enough that there is community outside.
I agree, of course there IS community outside, but it's NOT Mormon community.
@@stephanielibbert1668 yes that would be the point.
@annekimberling2825 the Mormon Community isn't perfect but it is mostly great for raising kids. I know some have been abused but there are bad apples in every single Community. Just saying the Mormon Community is by no means the worst.
@@stephanielibbert1668 Mormonism taught me to "other" people, to fear the end of times, to believe that my value was dependent upon my "virginity." Mormonism taught me that God curses bad people with dark skin and that angels with flaming swords tell married men to take on teen brides and other men's wives. The list can go on and on. This is not of God.
I love that Shannon can make it work for her❤
Thank you for sharing your experiences. Very interesting.
Thanks Shannon, John, etc. I've never been Morman, but I am an ecumenical Christian. I can totally understand why someone who's lost their testimony would want to stay in the Church of LDS. The sense of community and Christian love.....indeed the Holy Spirit seems to be so strong in the Church of LDS. The people are so nice. I can see the attraction.
By the way, I'm Australian, not American.
Thanks Margi
What a great episode!!! I learned a new perspective ! Thanks!
This has been one of my favorite videos and was so incredibly validating. I have been PIMO for 6 years. I am girls camp director right now and have decided to be done after girls camp because it's too emotionally draining for me, but I do appreciate feeling not alone. It's hard to not feel respected by both mormons and ex mormons and feels like I don't belong anywhere.
There's a couple that was baptized on my mission that are just like her. And they've transformed their ward. By far one of the greatest wards I've ever seen when I comes to these harder topics. Keep up the great work!
Even if I tried to reactivate as a non-believer, I would be ostracized because I don’t believe the same way. I’m glad this works for her, but it’s not realistic for very many other people.
Lovely conversation. Really sets up a discussion about common consent (making space for all of us to show up and have a say in what the church is) and the Q15's current quest to establish an obedient orthodoxy (so the hierarchy gets to defend the hierarchy). I respect the desire to stay and make change. I don't have the stomach for it. And my talents can be used somewhere else.
So where will you go to use your talents?💕
I’m still not sure where I am at. But will hopefully work myself out before I leave this mortal coil. I am I’m my 80s now.But not over the hill.I recall many years ago being told by a more mature sister that the Church doesn’t care much what you do after 65 or so!I was shocked,but it is true. You are not as much of value to them.
@@elainebeard2922 Doing some church shopping. Very much enjoy the Episcopal Mass (Catholic but without some of the baggage). We'll see what happens. But overall, noticing how much other Christian faiths are pointed outward toward others vs this inward, scrupulous fixation.
@@elainebeard2922 The Mormon church has a lot to offer in the 1st half of life (if you have kids especially). Not so much in the 2nd half. You can always volunteer time at the Temple if you are not on a GA or Mo-Celebrity track. Seeing other Christians doing so much community service and outreach in the 2nd half...and for actual humans in need. It is very inspiring.
I love this woman! You say everything that I want to say and could say when I livedin tbe mussion field. It is much harder to be myself at church in my ward in Utah. I have only went to church a couple of times in the past 12 years. I don't like reading scriptures. I don't pray in public. I prefer private prayer. I am so proud of how you still allow yourself to belong and fit in! I wish you were in my ward. I might decide to attend again if I had someone like you to stand beside. My late husband was nit active, my new husband is inactive Catholic. I have become lazy along with struggling with all the historical facts that keep popping up to haunt me. You are amazing!
I mean this very sincerely and with honest inquiry, maybe because I have several autoimmune diseases and have been very tired my whole life, unable to do much besides basic parenting and working part time.
When I hear exMormon and Mormon women speak of all they do/did at the same time (having babies, school and callings) it makes me wonder if it is common for Mormon women to take medications like stimulants and amphetamines? They talk fast and have so much energy. And it is so foreign to me.
It might just be my chronic illnesses, making me feel alien. It's probably one reason I never could fit into Mormonism and the ultra speed lifestyle.
Thanks for sharing another insightful interview.
Diet coke addiction 😂
Antidepressants and ADHD prescriptions are very high in the Mormon church.
As a nonMorman, I found this broadcast to be so applicable to my belief restructing journey. Learning to agree to disagree can be so loving and freeing.
Ok, the new label is PIMO. I can relate to her reasoning for staying and trying to advocate for change from within.
“You are not going to save them if you have not provided something for their parents to hold onto” 100% YES 2:40:54
Bless you Shannon, I love your focus on love and service. You are a beautiful person!
Attending church as a non Mormon, Is that even possible? I’m excited to find out.
@@latterdaysquirrelSo, God was not offended when his prophet Gordon Hinckley said using the word Mormon was fine and ran a multi-million dollar “I’m a Mormon” campaign for years…but now that the prophet is Russell Nelson, God has changed his mind and he’s now offended?
@@latterdaysquirrel😂😂😂 Mormon. The perjorative your church paid 30 million to establish as their brand.
It's pretty boring. Check it out.
Thank you, Shannon and Mormon Stories for this episode! This is where I am! I love the gospel of Jesus Christ and I love my church, but I don't love or believe all the church doctrine. Much love!
We often discourage black and white thinking for orthodox believers, but then we fail to embrace grey area and nuance when we leave the church by failing to acknowledge the good that comes from it.
It’s complicated… always has been, always will be
In a 100% sincere, not remotely snide (even though I’m not religious and many are under the mistaken belief that this is always said sarcastically when it is all encompassing) - I want to extend my deepest bless your heart.
I see many southern baptists, Calvinist’s, various evangelicals and church of godders rush into marriage in the same way in my neck of the woods. It has gotten worse with the introduction of obscene levels of purity culture that were not seen when I was a kid - teen.
I’m so thrilled my 26 year old co worker was able to wait just over a year before getting engaged and settling a date. She was isolated, home schooled, saturated in purity culture and started talking to her fiancée/first serious boyfriend about marriage a month after they started dating.
I would be more concerned if he were not an excellent young man who has told her family, and the non licensed/trained marriage counselors at her church, that he will NOT BE the only head of the household because marriage is a joint partnership.
He wants her to have goals. He tells her that they will both need to work to provide. He encourages her to have her own goals.
Her family disliked it but are now starting to understand that he really does love her.
I don't understand PIMO at her level. She is a delight to listen to but at that level of PIMO I would find another organization that I believe in. The PIMO people I know are secretly doubting but hardly anyone knows. Mostly in mixed faith relationships which has to be incredibly difficult.
Really strong cognitive dissonance
It's very freeing and empowering to choose to stay because this is where I want to be. I could join another church but then I would just inherit a different set of problems.
@@shannonlamb7912 When I stopped believing, I looked into many faiths. You are absolutely right though, when you join another church, you just inherit a different set of problems. Philosophical tradition of Buddhism and Stoicism were ultimately the best fit for my personality, that is the majority of my 'scripture study' today. I really hope the don't run you out, I enjoy your perspective.
1:52:52 could children with straight parents who weren’t living the law of chastity get baptized? That’s something I’ve struggled with as a long time “investigator” practicing privately.. I was fine with skipping on Sundays and doing my own thing, since I couldn’t get baptized, because I was “living in sin”. (I’m not going to rush to get married to my bf of 4.5 years since HS or move out for the law of chastity, where would I go with a chaotic home?), but hearing stories of on here of people being under the influence or being high- and still getting to be baptized is what really made me critical… long story short, I watch MSP, don’t go to service on Sunday, but I use my gospel library app… this interview aligns with a lot of what I feel.. thank you!
I think the child or children can still get baptized.
In Catholicism we call that pick and choose catholics! Which is most of us under 70
Or three-wheel Catholics, only baptised, married and buried in the Church (although priests keep trying to exclude them)
Or lily and poinsettias people who only go on Easter and Christmas lol!
@@fridaytaxAlso known as "hatch, match and dispatch."
Cafeteria Catholic here. Way over 70😊
@@connier1722 😜
Where do we apply I'm a southern Baptist (by force) but now believe in just good intentions and bad intentions... doing the right thing even when no one would know if you didn't.... I was going to church twice on Sunday 9 am Sunday school 10 to 1230 church go home then come back at 5 pm for choir practice then church started for the second service... then we would have to go serve Tuesday night going to see elderly members or sick from the church (or on the prayer list) then Wednesday was basically Sunday morning service in the middle of the week then Thursday was prayer meeting for everyone to just complain for 2 hours about praying for people that for the most part "unspoken" which meant they knew better but did it anyway... then Friday night choir practice and men's meeting that I always went being the only girl there with my dad (an amazing man) Saturday áfternoon was a few deacons and whoever was singing the next day but I was also there cause my dad was the choir director and he was always the best example of God for me.... he wasn't a labeler or man of condemnation...I am not religious anymore.... I've been hurt more in religion and by "church christians" than I ever had in the throws of addiction.... and I was just like do you guys read the actual Bible?
John I’ve been a fan of you for years I’m 23 I was raised Christian and I had a Mormon friend in middle school who introduced me to the celestial kingdoms. Since then (literally 10 years ago) I’ve been fascinated with Mormonism and other high demand religions. Anyways I lit up when you said a panel of nevermos because that would be so amazing!! I’m not sure my perspective would be beneficial on a panel like that but I hope you go through with that because I’m sure it would be amazing
PIMO for a decade because; while I was providing a stable village for my children. (HP, WC, 2nd Counselor to bishop, YM director and many more) Then my son came out and I did research and was appalled at the inconsistency and attention to the 99 and not the 1 as Jesus taught. Then that started me down the rabbit hole. As the blinders came off I couldn't continue.
Hi, so this is a sincere question. The callings you had require that you either give talks in sacrament meeting from the pulpit or bear your testimony from the pulpit. For example, one of the members of the bishopric gets up to share their testimony every testimony meeting. So when you would give a talk or bear your testimony, would you just lie? Confused about how this PIMO works
@@lorijanes-young6253 No, of course not. I would just stick to the things I thought were true. Can't go wrong with Jesus or charity or service. Would never get onto J. Smith or Brigham Young. Stayed away from the Family Proclamation too. And you have to remember it was a culmination of events that I could apologize for until I couldn't. Like trying to say the BofM is a historical record or that the D&C says to take another wife the wife had to give consent. Emma had no idea JS was married to a 14 year old and most of the women he was married to. All this added up... Like the straw that broke the camal's back. And during this whole time I was trying to reconcile all my doubts. Hope this explains a little bit.
@@lorijanes-young6253 No of course not. The first thing to note is that this was a gradual thing. I had questions and could be an apologist for things I disagreed with. I would stick to things I believed in and still do; for example, Jesus Christ, Service, the beatitudes, and so forth. Things I'd stay away from is the Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and family proclamation. I basically treated it like a lack of faith problem until too many things added up and I told my Bishop who is a good friend that I was leaving. I could go into more detail about the reasons; such as, my research the CES letters and how fast revelation changes when it has too. Anyway, I never want to shake anyone's faith because I think overall the church makes good people and I'll leave it at that.. Hope this helps.
@@kirkwohlford5553 That makes sense. I was in a similar place for a couple of years before I finally just decided to leave.
An absolute inspiration.
There is still little space in certain areas of the church
It works well for me as I don't want to go every Sunday but still want to affiliate with the ward. I live in Layton Utah. Mostly ALL the population is lds
Great bunch of people I love thier support
As long as I am a non believer it gets me from diving too deep or inslaving in myself in it
I’m happy for her that she finds this setup comfortable. I could never do it. When I was in I was all in, and when I was out I was completely out. Anything less felt like hypocrisy to me. The church is good at making sure you don’t find another religion. I have a rich spiritual life - left at 19 in 1996. I just can’t imagine going every week without the buy-in.
Oh my goodness-her story resonates so much when it comes to the checking off the boxes in choosing a partner. My temple marriage to an RM who was also an AP failed spectacularly 14 years and four kids later.
I could never do what she’s doing, but I respect her so much. Keep helping those people who are in, especially the vulnerable young people.
I have noticed very young men are asked to be Bishops and young women are asked to be RS presidents all while having young children, raising tiny kids.
Oh, I’ll definitely be applying!
Love- "My lived experience is different!" Listened to RS comment that Mormon cult leaders aren't paid. So wanted to correct the comment, but was cognizant that Stake RS leaders were sitting in judgment, taking notes on the back row. Not worth exposing myself- to expose TRUTH, others aren't aware of & would be disapproving of, as it's NOT Mormon narrative!
Great interview, but John missed the most important question! ;) When Shannon said that now non-members tell her the truth about what they think about Mormons I was hoping he’d dive into that a little more.
Though I have enjoyed Shannon’s story, I think it is incredibly unlikely that very many could stay in the church in the way that she portrays after losing faith in the core teachings. I was born and raised in the church, stayed until age 42. I also was not a “Utah Mormon”, but from an Air Force family who moved around quite a bit. In my experience, when I no longer fit the mold, I no longer fit in. There was literally not a place for me. I was gossiped about and lost almost all friends. Hell, my own family still gossips about me. This, of course, is just my opinion, I don’t think it is fair or even right to attend and not believe and then expect the believers to accommodate you and your new views. That being said, it does sound like the church is changing. My thought is that it is way better to leave and find people that you align with. It seems that Shannon has somehow stayed in, received the support she needs, kept her friends for the most part and she seems to be making it work. It is a cool story, but really hard for me to believe. Not that it isn’t true but just that not many could make this work. For me, staying would be living a lie. The truth matters way too much to me than having a group that I don’t belong in.
Thanks for sharing. She made many great points and I have experienced a similar process of change of heart. I left though.
A question: what is the software you use to be able to upload such a long video? Four and a half hours?
I listened to this entire 4 hour episode and as never Morman, I still genuinely do not understand how someone who does not believe would want to participate in the church. I clearly missed something but 4 hours is too long to go back and listen again.
She likes the opportunity to help, serve, and love others. It's not just about her.
This is my memory of same sex marriage in California…
About 1998-99 Gavin Newsome, mayor of San Francisco issued marriage licenses to same sex couples until it was stopped by lawsuits, I recall it lasting around 30 days.
In 2000, there was a push to modify the CA state constitution by adding the statement “Marriage is between one man and one woman.” This was sponsored by the usual suspects. The day a high councilman came into priesthood meeting and organized a political campaign for this was the last day I participated in TSCC. This was added to the state constitution, btw.
A couple of years later the CA Supreme Court said the statement was unconstitutional and it was thrown out. Maybe 2004?
In 2008, Prop 8 was passed and later thrown out by the CA Supreme Court.
Same sex marriage was legalized a little later.
I think her nuanced position position within the church is to be admired. That's for her and obviously not everyone. To do what she does within requires a level of non-reactivity, love, healing, and compassion. At around 3.00.00, she talks about belief and Jesus. That's interesting because many conventional religions (LDS being one) require precepts or prescribed beliefs that adherents are expected to follow. This is also called social religiosity - merely keeping everyone socially in line. True ego transcending God Realization is an entirely different level of approach to life. ❤
I’ll have to come back to this later.
Watched it and left the video feeling extremely gaslit. On one hand she validated those who have left but also minimized lots of real issues.
Thanks for your feedback. What issues did you feel I minimized?
It's also her life. She is giving advice to people who feel they are in the same boat as her. She did say she thinks it okay if someone else makes the choice to leave instead.
Easy. One quote.
When you say “MY” kids aren’t gay, so it’s easy to stay- you show the real limits of your empathy and principles.
You can say whatever you want. The truth is you are continuing to associate with an organization that seeks to enforce a ban of gay marriage via law. You are continuing to associate with a culture that views LGBT kids as “problem” kids- a “church” that ostracizes and pushes people to suicide.
You can personally advocate for “all are welcome!” All you want. It’s not true. Mormon leaders are clear on who and what is “acceptable.”
The Mormon church actively works to deny gay and trans people civil rights granted via the legal institution of marriage. Its culture drives youth lgbt suicide in Utah.
But sure. Not your kids? Not your problem.