No to the late apex
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- Опубликовано: 7 авг 2024
- Riding well is more than riding a prescribed line. The truth is the concept of selecting and riding an "apex" is flawed. Selecting apex's are rooted in track riding where every corner is known. On the street riders only one chance to get every corner perfect. The apex is only a by-product of any corner... the focus should always be the exit.
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To sum up the entire video: 6:28 “You only ride based on what you can see”. Great advice for any level of rider!
Yep. When I ride unknown roads, especially in the twisties and with limited visibility, I try to maintain a speed which allows me to stop within the visible portion of the road in front of me.
In the countryside, you never know when you encounter a car in the opposing lane(or when roads doesnt even have a middle separator) while at the same time there are people, kids, cycles, animals whatever in front of you and I obviously don’t want to hit either of them. Is this necessarily the most fun way to ride? No, perhaps not, but it is certainly the safest,
"Always be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear..." Motorcycle Roadcraft, the Police Rider's Handbook.
And therefore no need to trail brake at all if you are in the correct gear.
@@terenceokeeffesmotorcyclestuff disagree. If you trail brake you increase your safety margins compared to coasting in gear.
Never put your bike where your eyes haven't been. 👍🏻
I practice “eyes up!” And look as far ahead as possible.
ahhhh......you recall the BRC 2-second following distance, 4 second immediate path, and 12-second anticipated path......and you added the 4th dimension To Infinity and Beyond! Good for you, it works in corners too.
This is a big one, I drive trucks for a living and apart from state Highways which don't offer much more (25cm either side if you're in the centre of the lane) ...on back roads you'll have a tyre on the fog line and the other on the centre line, so its vitally important you can drive looking as far ahead as possible but position your truck to the millimetre by your peripheral vision, it's a very uncomfortable skill to develop but once you can do it without really thinking about it - you feel like Anikan Skywalker using the force, or being able to do something while blindfolded ...well in a Kenworth anyway? In a car you fell like an artist, and on a bike its like the red sea parting for you 😁
Looking well ahead is extremely important and so is learning to work with your peripheral vision and memory. Widening your field of view to about half way between tunnel vision and out to the max, slows every thing down and helps you achieve more accurate riding with less effort. Keeping the main focus in the middle distance and not scanning from long distance to the road surface just in front helped my riding enormously.
That's the way to do it!
@@calebgriffiths9062 helicopter vision indeed. Taxi driving in urban scooter invested unfamiliar area taught me this. It's freaking multitasking. Keep the client happy , keep an eye on the road ( signs , cyclists , flow), the taxameter , the gps , the invoice income , other potential client spots , police , roadworks etc.
Vision is the top thing. Yet riders should practice technique. Police practice tight U-turns , with debris and whilst looking opposite way of where they're going. So you know where the bike goes. Otherwise you' re not riding the bike. It rides you.
I came in thinking I'd disagree with something, but I don't. Absolutely agree that the apex, on the street, is 100% a byproduct, it's a consequence of OTHER decision making, not a component of the decision itself.
Trail brake in, look for your exit. That's it.
Ditto 👍
Likewise. I like the trail-braking for the simple fact that the brakes are set, suspension is set . I'm wide as possible for the best possible view downrange and for danger lurking. Ready to stop or ready to accelerate out of that "by-product".
Doe you need to apex every corner on the street?
No.
But you better not accelerate in a corner until you can SEE your exit. Right?
(Because it stands up the bike!)
Learning how to recognize the apex is a tool in your toolbox.
Trail braking is a tool in your toolbox.
Learn to use the right tool for the right job.
I have a problem with the confusing dialogue occurring at 4:24 when he draws and says, “the corner continues around.”
He began by drawing an apex for a normal corner, then extended the corner without changing the apex, which was a mistake.
Doesn’t that resulting diagram illustrate an EARLY apex?
He should have moved the apex point…
I don’t know if he did this on purpose or not.
And during this dialogue, he said he doesn’t teach trail braking but then, pretty much agrees that it’s necessary on a corner like this?
(Because it is unless you are familiar with the corner.)
As I said, you don’t have to try to “apex” every corner on the street.
It’s not necessary, but it is good practice.
(Like trail braking.)
Let’s be clear about one thing:
You cannot SEE the apex until you SEE the exit.
As a beginner rider (6m) I feel like watching your videos is an investment in my safety. I've learned so much already. Greetings from Belgium!
God bless
Thank You Bret! "You only ride on what you can see " is the most important statement I've ever heard from an instructor..! There are so many injured and deceased "Heroes" out there ignorant of the concept...
“Be able to stop in the distance you can see.” Is the same thing. Love them.
Pretty much what I was taught when I went through auto rally racing school 35 years ago.Trail brake or off throttle into a corner and accelerate only when you pick your exit.
Trail braking in a race car is for a completely different reason of course....
In like a lam out like a lion
Good stuff. I think a lot of riders, mainly the ones who do not have track experience, don't really known what an apex is. The advice I usually give is "do not turn in too early". Many riders have the reflex of turning in too, then have to straighten the bike to pass the corner, then turn in again to avoid crossing to the other line. If the rider is just a bit too fast, he/she ends up in the other lane. By turning a bit late, you see farther in the corner, by trail braking you can adjust the speed mid corner if needed like in a long 180 degrees decreasing radius... but there are no black or white, every corner is different and so many parameters are involved. The challenge for a rider is evaluating the parameters and act accordingly...
this is way more useful than any "ride along with" and "look .. here's my shiny new exhaust for 1k bucks" - videos ... thumbs up and a comment for that algorithm
Thanks Bret, trying to apex is on a track only, cornering safely is everywhere else.
One thing I wish would be stressed more is expecting an oncoming vehicle to be on or over the line if they are in the outside lane and that too many riders also cut the line if they are on the outside, sure, maybe their tires are an inch from the line but the bike and their body may be way over the line. There are friends I don't ride with because of things like that, they are an accident looking for a place to happen.
When I first started riding I would watch others do that......scare's the poo outta me still. Would rather run out the road than bash my head into a mirror of a passing bronco
Great point. Riders need to differentiate between the track an the road. Several well known RUclipsrs with limited experience place their front tire a few inches off the center line in a curve with regularity. Then they cross over and have to dive back to their lane. There is no talking to them..
75% of vehicles run over the line...in my area anyway.
At Honda safety courses they teach something different but with the same safety mindset:
1. Do not speed at the street, you have to be able to stop in the distance you see.
2. 99% breaking should be before corner get the speed where you can do it.
3. If needed with rear break you can tighten the curve.
(3-4) Trust the bike and tyre also they teach how you can use body position to turn tighter.
4. Only accelerate if you see the exit and the road is clear.
Beautifully put together. Thank u
You can tell if the corner tightens or straightens by looking at the road horizon. If it starts getting closer to you it’s tightening. If the horizon starts to move away the road is going to straighten. You can very easily predict what the road is going to do. So it’s not about Apex, it’s about exit (road horizon getting further away). Fully agree with Brett.
Absolutely Yes!
How can you agree 100% with Brett, when you say the opposite of what he says?
The only way to know how the corner goes, is when you have gone true the corner once. So… no, it has noting to do with the horizon, that you never see when its a blind corner.
@@Gismo3333 You've misunderstood. The road horizon is the farthest part of the road that you can see. If that is getting closer then the curve is tightening up.
@@Gismo3333 you’re wrong. Go ride a corner and watch the road horizon. This is where the two sides of the road meet at a point. The furthest part of the road you can see. That point has nothing to do with blind corners because we are discussing exit points here, not obstacles on the blind side of a corner. You can never see around a corner but the road horizon will easily tell you what to expect for an exit.
@@jaywhoisit4863 It's now way you have the time to read the road that close in a high speed corner. I don't believe you. This have to be one of the myths out there in the US.
Isn't the whole "late apex" concept applied to the street actually a way of telling "wait until you can see the exit before reaching an apex"? That's always how I understood it 🤔
Late Apex can be loosely considered hugging the inside line after the turn.
They teach late corner entry here in NZ ride forever courses.. In some situations i dont like it but as a general rule i adopt this method just to be further away from on comming traffic if the opposing trafic runs wide AND to get a better view of the vanishing point.. Just dont go in to fast ( for every pro there is a con) and consider the condition of the road where less vehicles place their wheels ie more chance of debris on the periphery of the tyre tracks upon the road. My 2 cents. Ride safe.
@richbrett7268 agreed, done a few rider forever courses as well .definitely have to be cautious on some of our twisty back roads .I find cars cutting corners more often, so taking the outside line on a blind left hand bend has more risk when the approaching vehicle has their drivers side wheels over the center line .
I started riding when I was 11, I'm now 55 and have ridden through Australia (where I live) Indonesia and Vietnam. I consider myself experienced and confident on a bike. This was such a great watch. Just goes to show that learning never stops. Thanks for sharing your expertise.
GREAT stuff sir! Stumbled upon your "shiny side up" series a while back and have been rabidly catching up on all your videos ever since. Keep up the great work!
I have watched many videos on this topic from "experts." This is the clearest and best explanation of how to take a turn I have ever seen. Taking the apex out of the decision equation "unless you are on a track" is an important realization that will save your life. Awesome video! Thank you.
I never understood the concept of the apex, let alone where to find it. This makes much more sense. Thank you for this video. Very much appreciated.
If you ride everday on your commute to work
and you learn to ignore the lines painted on the pavement
you will find the apex in every curve and corner
because you memorize the "course"
One thing to remember is is to read the street signs coming into a corner, whether it’s a 180 degree turn or an S bend
Totally agree. Here most turns will have a suggested speed sign. Tell you a lot about what’s to come.
Excellent video and really helpful, thank you! Recently watched McLovin moto doing a track day on his police bike and his cornering commentary was "outside, outside, outside, inside". I've been combining this with trail braking and my corners have been magically smooth without thought of an apex. I will ALWAYS strive to be better. Never stop learning and practice what you learn! Again, thank you!
At last a video that is 100% correct about how to ride in the real world. Well done!!! I've been riding like this my whole life which unfortunately is a very long time... LOL
Finally a video that matches my experience. All the other videos regarding curve sucks because they try to teach you how to do curves fast. Well I want to be able to do the whole curve first!
Since when I first learnt about trail braking and delayed apexes, my actual riding ability got worse because of two reasons. First, as these techiniques are not properly elaborated by many so we just get estimation of what to do. Second, I was more concerned abut delaying apexes and trail braking using front brake that I completely overthrew the most important thing while riding "vision".
The roads where I live are super narrow with lots of turns and steep downhill. Here, the best option is to be on brakes most of the time. Because we cannot ride fast due to so many turns, using only front brake causes huge weight shift to the front and also provides more than enough stopping power at these slower speeds. So, trail braking using only front brake is pointless here. We need to be on both brakes or rear brake mostly on slower turns. But again the most important thing is still vision. No matter what technique you use if your vision is bad things will go bad.
Thanks for the beautiful explaination. I always see your videos when in doubt because I know you have ridding in these conditions and you know exactly what to do here. I can't really take lessions from someone who has ridden on roads that are wider than highways in my country (India) and especailly in Himalayan region where roads are super steep and narrow with full of turns.
Fantastic! Most of us ride on the road at normal speed and not at the motogp track. Very relevant information that validates something I was doing unconsciously. Thanks
Thank you Thank you. I hear riders always talk about apexing and I tell them ride by sight. Great video. Thank you
Lol never took much classes on the road. But I do ride Lots and lots of mountain roads. I keep braking through a corner and my friends called me crazy. I touch the brakes lightly and keep it rolling until I see the exit.... Didn't know something I did naturally was actually a good practice.... It comes also from my practice I don't speed up on the straights and brake like a madman for a corner but I try to keep my momentum going and ride more flowy. Probably comes from dirtbike racing. Flow is faster then insane braking and acceleration because you don't have the traction for that so I naturally like to ride flowy on the ADV too :)
Anytime someone uses an absolute, you can be assured that it's wrong. There are 27 different ways to take any given curve. The correct one is the one that worked, and one that allowed you to come out of that curve happy.
And safely... for you and for everyone else surely...isn't it.
People that will downvote this, why did you do that?
Also great information.
KTM Fanboys? That's my best guess.
Probably those that crashed and still won't understand what they did wrong ?
Because there were no naked women involved!
Just wanted to say awesome talk at the show in PA . Learned a lot thanks for being there.
As someone in their mid 40's returning back to riding after 6 years off, I'm so grateful for finding your videos, especially videos like these. I've been putting these ideas into practice over the last couple of months and can honestly say they've made me a safer, and more attentive rider.
One of my favourite hints of yours is actually to "smile while you ride". No matter how many times I'm feeling frustrated if I just remember to smile, things instantly feel better and the ride improves.
Thank you so much for all that you do in this space, I really believe you are saving the lives of motorcyclists such as myself but improving our skills. I just wish there were courses like this here in South Australia because I would sign up in an instant!
Great advice! I never really thought of that…that from the perspective of a rider that doesn’t know where the side is, the apex is the variable, yet the exit is the constant.
I think most people, including myself, are under the impression that what’s good for racing, must be applicable to the street.
But as you’ve shown, that really isn’t the case.
Thank you for the good advice!
Yup. It's ALL about acquiring the exit. Best explanation I've seen. Thanks, Bret!
Nicely done…I base my “apex” on my exit and make use of trail braking to support vision…once one discovers the difference between the “engineering” apex of a turn and the “riding” apex of a turn, things change .. don’t commit to what you can’t see👌
That diagram made so many things finally click that I've only heard in many other videos but had not seen. Thanks for another well thought out video Bret
You are certainly the real Guru of Motorbiking Bret. you break myths with logic and experience. Thanks for save a lot of lifes!
Thank-you for coming out and saying Bret. Too many people tech corning like every corner is a short racetrack corner.
I found it's actually the most important turning concept that is useful. it's life saving as well. Thank you so much!
SLLR (Slow Look Lean Roll) this was the MSF teaching and it became my mantra. It has served me well, it was simple and safe. Not it did not include trail breaking but I was doing it when needed anyway. It has served me well and your advice is excellent. I thought you were going to share something a little different when I saw the cruiser that was on its side. Late apex's probably require a greater lean angle than a long arching curve and for bikes with limited ground clearance late apex carries with it a special danger especially when you encounter a DRB (decreasing radius bend). Nice work on your part to take the time and share this information.
Very useful - thank you for sharing all this valuable content 🙏🏻 I have been riding for over 10 years and I’m still struggling with this!!
Finally someone is explaining this in a way that makes sense. Thank you!
I'm a founding member of what was probably the first motorcycle club sanctioned by a State high school in Australia (in 1969), and have
worked for years as a motorcycle courier riding 9 hours a day 5 days a week... riding recreationally on and off road also, and general commuting
as well, so I feel qualified to say; take note of this video... the commentator knows how.
For riding on roads one is not familiar with, I agree with Bret Tkacs video here.
Good work Mr Tkacs. Warm regards Alan
Very well explained for street riding. Thanks for what you do Bret! 🤠
Well instructed. THis articulates much of what I came to understand as I have become older. Im far more judicious in building a margin of error when Im unable to visualize the entire bend, dip or rise. Ride based on what you can see, indeed.
Couldn't agree more. On a closed course, you can improve your line with every lap, eventually identifying the brake, turn in, apex, and exit points most appropriate for the speed YOU carry in that corner. On the road, I tend to find the speed I'm comfortable holding through the curve based on assuming it could be a complete switchback. That way, I'm at a comfortable speed when I can actually see the exit and then identify an apex relative to that exit. Hope that makes sense.
This is a good instructional. I did the street skills course back in 2011 with Bret at camp Mackall FT Bragg and helped with the foundation of where I am today.
Great video. My favorite street smarts quote - Nick Ienatsch - "Remember, there is no penalty for entering a corner too slowly on the street".
Excellent. For years I've thought "apex" has been overused in educating the average street rider. Thanks for this video.
Brett, I watched this video a few weeks ago and I can't tell you how many times I've thought about it since. Its absolutely true! Although I'm unable to ride at the moment, even driving a car your advice makes sense. I have learned something that opposes what I've been doing for my whole life which will allow me to see the corner better. Thanks very much for sharing your wisdom.
Thanks Bret... again very well explained. I am doing trailbreaking already for many years, not realy realising that it was trailbreaking. I always wondered how other riders drove thru curves without slowing down far more, even if they could not see anything behind the curve. They simply irgnored the risk...
Thank you Bret! I’ve watched numerous videos on trail braking and I think this was the clearest for intent. My favorite riding areas are wooded so mostly blind corners and road hazards will always be unknown until seen. I have found using my navigation app gives me an advantage by being able to see the path ahead. Does nothing for identifying hazards but a quick glance lets me know if this is a sweeper or a hairpin.
excellent video as usual. Like the way this was explained... this is what I have been doing forever and it's always hard to explain now I have a video to share! Thanks.
Spot on, see where your headed first and the rest will take care of itself. Thanks Bret.
The best explanation about it , there is so many teachers not all are good .,, you sir nailed it 👍👍👍👍
Excellent presentation and synopsis. Really appreciate this for a new rider.
Awesome info. "Ride based on what you can see" simple, but effective.
Very informative from an instructor with an excellent demeanor and knowledge on proper technique.
I appreciate the videos you do. You have really helped me in different techniques.
Great stuff, thank you excellent. This is the general concept that I was taught but you actually solidified it for me!!
Good stuff, Bret, as always.
I think that "late apex" in regards to a right turn means that you approach the turn from as far to the left as is safe. This provides the earliest line-of-sight to exit. Start wide, finish close. As apposed to "early apex" where you start close, finish wide. Late apex is a choice of entry point that favors visual horizon over absolute distance. The rider is not choosing an apex point. The rider is choosing a wider entry point that will yield an earlier view of exit and in the process delaying apex.
So nice to see a sane person on the internet explaining these things. I just wasted 30 minutes of my life trying to explain this to somebody and it was like preaching to a brick wall. Every corner is different in the "real world," even the ones we've taken hundreds of times. (deer? new pothole? Car crossing the line? Wet grass in the road today? How about a big old snapping turtle crossing the road like I saw last week!) This is why I can ride the same route over and over and it's always entertaining!
"Only ride based on what you can see" words to live by
I had been doing this since my basic class years ago, not that they taught it, but more instinctual I guess. I just knew NOT to grab a fist full of brake in a turn, but always knew that at some point I would have to use my brakes in a turn and figured it out on my own. But hearing/watching the specifics on why, clarifies the reasoning for doing so.
Thing is, accelerating is the coolest sensation. So relax, slow down for the corners, and when you see there isn't a bus in your lane around the corner, roll on some power!!! Then check your partner is still on the back 😂😂😂
Great video. Thank you for share Ng your safety tips/advice.
Interesting shift in teaching from apex to exit. Heard it for the first time in your film, food for though. Thanks a lot, Günter from Nürnberg/Germany
Very simple rule
I always ensure that I can stop within the distance I can see. Does it make me slower? Yep, but I don’t care; when I go out one of my goals is to return in one piece. I also apply this to racing off-road and it’s definitely saved my life several times.
Hugely beneficial when there’s rocks, sand, oil spill in the corner!
Brilliant, because in reality, one of the scariest things is realizing you're not going to make the corner and your on the opposite side of the road. EVERYONE should be studying your videos! Thanks you
Thank you for good and life saving advice, and greatly improved the joy of riding👍
Interesting points.
Here in the UK advanced riding skills has the students keep to one side of the corner, all the way through the corner and not to turn into an apex at all, (right hand turns keep left for example) unless of course the road is certain to be clear ie we can see far enough to be able to brake effectively.
The idea being is on tighter corners there is a likelihood of coaches / trucks may have the front of the vehicle over the white line to make the corner as such we need to anticipate that.
Just wondering your thoughts on that pal?
US schools teach "middle, middle, middle" (entry, midpoint, exit) for blind curves on unknown roads. Maximizes buffer on the inside and outside in case there is something in the road that you need to avoid.
@@beepbop6697 That is strait up a lie. You have no "US schools", that teach the same thing in all states. You don't even have the same rules across the US.
Hi @@Gismo3333 , you are insulting someone who 100% aced the MSF BRC written and riding tests. They most definitely teach, and have an exam question where the answer is "middle-middle-middle" for cornering strategy for unknown blind curves.
@@beepbop6697 So you aced the test in all 50 states? And why did you bather with that. You just need to take one in your own state.
I don't believe you. Because I know you are lying. Some states you don't need to take a real test.
Hi troll@@Gismo3333 . Nice strawman attempt. I never said anyone had to take an exam.
I said US schools (which 45 of 50 states, plus the US military) use the MSF curriculum, and that curriculum teaches "middle-middle-middle" for cornering strategy in unknown blind curves.
Let me graph it out for you:
🖕🖕🖕
Quality explanation on safe riding. Big thumbs up. 👍🏻
I have the feeling a lot of riders only try to be „competitive“ on the road, and if you can‘t follow them or brake more you‘re a lame rider.
But with this strategy i had an easy life where it was too close to be cool for some of my former bike buddies…
Thanks Bret!
Another way to explain it. Very good very clear. THANKS Bret.
With a sat nav it's so tempting to ride around a blind corner too fast, as you know the shape, but having that visibility of the road and exit is really important, as your sat nav doesn't show obstacles or road surface issues etc. Another aspect to this.
really?
you are looking at your GPS on a twisty road?!
JESUS!
@@kenwittlief255 Usually well before the corners. Only takes a glance to see the profile of a blind corner.
In an area where I am not familiar I also have my navigation active, not only for the route but primarily to see what corners come up ahead. Correctly setup it can help quite a bit.
My Dad was a traffic cop trained in high speed pursuit (UK) and he rode motorcycles over 30 years. The first thing he preached to me was never brake through a corner……and of course it was the first rule I broke.
The best piece of advice I ever got was from a crash, be smooth. Whatever you’re doing do it smoothly, progressively and always always analyze afterwards on what you could have done better and what you missed or got wrong.
I completely agree, thinking about Apex on the road is a waste of time and keeps your eyes locked on exactly where they shouldn’t be and it doesn’t make you faster.
Your eyes always need to be moving, I completely understand what you mean about your body following your eyes and head and the bike following that but…..if you are so committed (speed and line) that you cannot deviate your focus or change line then you’re riding too fast for the conditions.
The road is not a race track, it won’t forgive you when you make a mistake or fail to consider a possibility and does it really matter who was in the wrong when you hit something on a blind turn that you weren’t expecting.
Been there done that, ride within your limits and keep learning.
Love this channel, it’s reinforcing so much I discovered for myself. Really like the part on trail breaking……sometimes I use it and sometimes I’m just pootling along and don’t need it
In my own experience, I don't trailbrake. For those turns that vision limited, I finish brake as usual, keep the throttle to maintain speed that I can attach to the outside line. By that, I can see the exit earlier than staying in the inside line. The outside line always has wider curve so I can maintain higher speed and have larger distance to handle if there is sth unexpected suddenly appears.
Now that is the clearest and most sensible explanation I think I have seen. Thankyou.
In my 30 years of touring I have noticed a phenomenon of the last person in the line crashing on the corner. A tail whip affect caused by everybody trying to keep up to the person in front of them when the lead person throttles up on the corner.
That's why I would never group ride.
It's recommended to have the rookies in the front of the pack, and more experienced riders at the rear, for exactly that reason with the accordion / whiplash effect.
Very teaching👍🏻 even if I many years on the road already,there always something I can learn
May I ad to this using the vanishing point to read a corner. Very helpful tool on unfamiliar sinuous roads.
As someone who likes to apply these driving dynamic techniques in my car, I feel like the most important thing is that you know the road ahead. If you don’t know the road, you should not be pushing your limits period. (I’ve never ridden a bike, im sure for a beginner understanding your limit is a lot harder, and a lot more dangerous if a process to find it.) good video overall, I would say that the issue is less with the apex, and more with people’s willingness to send it on unknown roads.
Great job as usual !!!! Bret Rocks!!!
Is engine braking considered a way of trail braking? If I actively trail brake as much as it sounds like you are doing, I’m gonna stop mid corner on my DRZ 😅 Joking, but my initial question is serious. Thanks for a very good video Bret.
Yes, Any planned deliberate slowing that begins before the turn point and is finished before the apex... But that is another video 😉
@@BretTkacs Thank you sir!
I dunno. I'm not Bret, so my voice will carry less weight.
Engine braking is a way to slow, but it's almost the opposite effect on the suspension from trail braking. Engine braking into a curve requires at some point you speed up the RPMs so that the rear tire starts pushing you again, which means traveling through the lash point on your chain and sprocket slack. Even a shaft drive has play and lash, though greatly reduced. Traveling through the lash point is destabilizing, because it cannot be well controlled. Engine braking has a lot of play.
If you don't believe me, put your bike in 1st gear while it is off and rock back and forward. You travel a lot. That is like engine braking. You engine doesn't control movement as smoothly because of sprocket wear, chain slack, and the required tolerances for the milled parts of the engine.
Now, still off and in 1st gear, pull back on the bike as hard as you can, then hold the front brake. Now the suspension is loaded by the engine trying to move the rear tire forward while the front brake prevents it from doing that. Much more stable. The only slop now is your suspension, and, loaded, it has less movement than it did when just the engine was stopping the bike. And if your preload and sag are set correctly for your load, that slop will decrease even more.
If you could see the difference in the shape and size of the contact patches both of those scenario's have, you see a better patch on the trail braking system. But you can feel the stability of the two when compared without getting all complicated with transparent plates with camera's under them.
While engine braking, the rear tire will pull the front of the bike down, decreasing your rake a bit, but the forces loading your suspension are weak and poorly controlled. Applying front brake would help stabilize things a bit, but its a rear tire decelerating you while your front tire is decelerating you.
Trail braking, the rear tire is pushing forward and the front brake is holding back. The two forces create a bunching effect on the bike, like the 1st gear thing I suggested earlier. While trail braking, you have a steady engine speed, and your front brake is what is loading your suspension. Its a simple friction co-efficient, managed by one or two fingers on a hydraulic lever, applying direct pressure to pistons on pads on your rotors, rather than a combustion, piston balancing, mechanical chain and sprocket system. You are dragging or riding your brake. And trail braking doesn't involve the lash when the engine speed becomes faster than the bike is traveling, stops decelerating and (lash) starts accelerating. Trail braking has the smooth throttle pushing the rear of the bike forward against the front brake, loading both front and rear suspensions, reducing your rake, making a quick turn-in easier. And everything is simpler and smoother.
I wouldn't say engine braking is trail braking. Its an excellent way to spill velocity, when in a fairly upright position, but the inherent instability of that system would make it a poor choice, in a turn, in a lean, to load your suspension, decrease your trail, and improve your contact patch.
But as a way to spill speed before a curve, any braking method is better than not enough.
I would say the simple description of the system involved in trail braking is the concise control and balance of throttle on the rear end trying to push forward against the resistance of the front brake slowing the bike. Both rear and front suspensions become loaded and stabilize.
Engine braking would be the rear end slowing from engine vacuum. If you add front brake, your rear suspension will unload, the contact patch friction co-efficient becomes less and the system destabilizes.
It's all about staying smooth, and everything Bret teaches is to that point. I look forward to Brets video on trail braking.
@@D.E.X True, but…. Their are also two advantages of engine braking. First, it loads the front tire without using any of the tires available friction for braking. Of course you can achieve the same thing by trail braking with the rear brake. Second, it forces you to learn smooth throttle control to minimize lash. I think that’s a very worthwhile lesson and practice.
@@Theravadinbuto This is wrong on almost all points. If you slow down the bike, it always use some of the available grip on the tires. To load the front tire into a corner… You just touch the front brake gently with 2 fingers, like you would try feel someones pulse. Engine braking is also not consistent. Down hill it almost have no effect. That is going to give you a experience; in a sharp turn down a mountain, with a 1000 feet drop outside the road, with no guardrails. If that don't get your blood pumping fast… Nothing will…
Another thing (problem) with engine braking, you have to know your bike very well before it is safe to use that to brake. On big bikes they tend to lock the back wheel, if it is only a little to much. And that is an instant low-side, with most riders. Especially in a corner.
Great vlog, Bret. I agree, you cannot pick an apex without either knowing where the curves exit is, or, in the case of an S-curve (what a civil engineer would call a "reverse" curve and some call a compound curve) the entrance to the next curve. If you are doing it right, since your speed has been reducing until you see the exit, a reducing radius curve won't catch you by surprise, because you have already been braking and are still braking into the curve. The same with a hazard being revealed as you go deeper into the curve. You only start smoothly rolling on power once the exit is identified, and the apex is mentally marked and you can start your turn-in.
The number one mistake people make is guessing where the apex will be without seeing an exit to determine the apex's true location.
Then they run wide.
The true location of the apex is on the track, not on the road. Just like you was told in this video. How did you miss that?
You don't know where the apex is, before you are at the apex. (That's why there is no apex on the road). And by that point you must have done half the cornering already, or you want make the corner.
@@Gismo3333 You have to ride your own ride, man.
Correct me if I am wrong here, but the late apex is when you stay on the outside of the curve until you see the exit then you fully turn in and hit the apex from that point, whereas the racing line enters earlier and hits the apex mid corner? I had been under the impression that late apexing was safer because it allows you to see all the way through to the end.
The point is you do not know where the apex is unless you know where the exit is. It's better to focus on the exit than to focus on an imaginary apex.
On a track you can either pinpoint the apex because of perfect visibility or you'll know where it is after a couple of laps.
On a public road you have no idea where either the exit or the apex is. So keep looking ahead while slowing down or holding the speed and turning in towards the inside of the corner, but trail braking will be crucial if you have to slow down in case the corner is tightening. Once you can see the exit, you know you just hit the apex. So the apex is irrelevant, since it requires knowing where the exit is. Focus on the exit, that's the only thing that matters to make the corner.
@@sv650nyc7 Now that I think about it, this is exactly what I am (and you are) saying. Hug the outside until you see through the turn, then turn through the apex (like a natural apex), straighten, and accelerate.
Easier still is looking at the vanishing point or the point where the edge of the road on your side and the and the far side of the road meet as you look through the turn. If the vanishing point starts to move away from you or opens up then you can accelerate out of the turn. If the vanishing point remains where it is or starts coming towards you then then turn is constant or tightening. This is a UK Police and advanced riding technique.
Amazing. I never bought into apexing on the street. It never made sense to me. All I care about is maintaining the safest line and the best vision I can manage.
Practical approach to cornering safely. Thanks Brett.
I'm a senior motorcyclist who took it up 15 years ago and was not taught, nor never heard of riding the apex - thank fully it would appear. Instinctively, I just look at the exit of the curve and if I can't see it, I just check my speed as best as I can and touch wood, it's worked to date. Having tumbled off my bicycle a few times over the last 50 plus years, hitting the deck with 250kg of bike, at speed, does not appeal. I also recently bought a Yamaha Niken GT. It relishes bends and makes leaning into a bend even more enjoyable.
Good info as always and where did you find the chalk board. I thought everyone used white boards now. Brings back memories of cleaning erasers in grade school.
It’s much appreciated, you sharing your knowledge.
Thank ya sir. 🙏🏽
🏍️💨
I've used "late apex" on the roads only with Roadcraft's "always be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear, on your side of the road" in mind.
So in such blind corner, I'd slow-slow-slow till I see the turn opening up and that's when I see the apex.
If the corner stats to tighten again, that would be slow down again and second apex somewhere behind the next turn.
So I'm naturally looking for apex by waiting for exit. Only when I see the exit I stop commiting to braking, move to the inside, pass the apex and open up to exit the corner.
And what Bret is saying is great insight into how to teach this above concepts to newbies.
I've started with "always be able to stop", trailbraking and that way late apex was a natural safe thing, but with different sequence of teaching skills this video seem reasonable.
Would definitely use that on trainees having difficulty with trailbraking.
Sounds like a good waynto make their riding safer without that skill.
One of the few "always" rules I subscribe to is never rider faster than the distance you can see AND stop. When riding off pavement I include that there is likely a vehicle coming towards me in the middle so extra time/distance is needed over pavement riding where it is less likely to have a closing speed
Best video out there on cornering
Love these classroom teachings,
Thanks
Exactly as I ride. I continue light breaking after the initial speed reduction until I can see the exit. I go the speed around the corner that allows me some options, ie break, move if I can.
Couldn't agree more! I am coming to the conclusion that ideally apex should be attained when you can see the turn exit. No earlier, no later. I will not be looking for the apex, I'll be looking for the exit while gently narrowing the turn: as soon as I can see the exit point, then I will draw a straight line from where I am to that point, and this will have me apexing the turn.
As a Porsche instructor we often do no braking exercises in track to teach vision and enlighten more advanced drivers on how much momentum they can carry into a corner. This is done without any downshifting to control speed as well, so the tranny is not used to slow the vehicle down either. If you are approaching a corner with too much speed it’s completely counter intuitive to turn in EARLY but in fact that is the only way to safely get through. You can not to turn in late. The early turn in allows you to hit an apex and then as the vehicle is turned you are continuously scrubbing speed. Rather than a constant radius, or a turn with a decreasing radius after the apex, you can TIGHTEN cornering after the apex gradually as your speed is reduced during the corner. The slowest portion of the corner being just before track out. It’s not the fastest way through the corner at all, but with no brakes or other option for slowing down prior to turn in it’s the best chance for making it through the corner. Bikes and cars both naturally scrub a ton of speed any time they are turned, so the further you are into the corner and the longer the bike has been turned, the slower you will be and the more direction change you can then input.
Great video! It really reinforces why we do the things that we do on the road rather than focusing on specific objectives like turn in point, apex, line etc.
A question: if you find yourself tail braking in the middle of a turn but finding yourself going a bit slower than you expected, what should you do? Another motorcycle instructor popular on RUclips has taught that you can roll on the throttle to maintain speed whilst holding some slight trail braking pressure at the same time. This has never really agreed with me, what are your thoughts?
The thing about using delayed apex cornering is that, by starting on the outside radius of the corner, you can see more of the corner. If you haven't ridden the road before, and there are trees blocking view, perhaps rocks, leaves, branches laying on the road surface, you can see more from the outside radius. If you start on the inside radius and that radius tightens, you have only one choice: move to outside and hope you don't run out of room. Also, if you start on the inside radius and don't see the stuff laying on the road, you might have a problem.
Excellent video….!!!
Information is spot on…..