My Grandpa William's was a Catch Wrestler in the 30s and 40s...well, all his life. He grew up in Houston and he and his 4 brothers worked out with the kid next door,whose name was George Wagner. When George became famous later he would not fight any of the William's brothers. He was known as Gorgeous Georfe then. My Grandpa used to come see me in Judo tournaments in the 60s and 70s and loved it. He was a rough,rough man. Saw a video of you earlier in match. Looking great!! Tani was beautiful if I remember right, remember kuzushi on uchi Mata ( and every other throw. Looking really good, Chadi!
@@kristiannoetorres iam not sure they trained with him, but they knew him. My Grandpa was Lee William's, his brothers were Cottin, Dutch, Lester and Floyd, although I dint think Floyd wrestled, he was much younger
My father wrestled catch-as-catch-can in England in the 40s and 50s. In the 60s he sent me to judo, karate, kung fu, which I thought was pretty good. And later I studied jujitsu. After several decades of me studying eastern martial arts, my father, as an old man, showed me all his old catch wrestling techniques which I never knew before, and I was truly amazed at how deadly the locks and throws were, for example, many neck crank varieties, variations of boston crab and other leg, foot, and back locks, lots of wrist twists leading into assorted arm and shoulder locks, standing locks,... etc, which do not exist quite the same in judo/jujitsu. And what also impressed me was the flow of catch wrestling is different to jujitsu in that the grip leading to a lock is usually applied before the bodily position is consolidated, then after the grip as the lock is tightened the bodily position is secured, making the flow to submission of catch wrestling very fast in comparison to securing position then applying the lock. Of course good judo/jujitsu players get good at that too, but my father taught it from beginning, so the locks were learned progressing from the grip to application and positioning, rather than from positioning to grip and application. This made me realise how fast and deadly the old catch wrestlers were.
In the early 1900s it was common for American grapplers to cross train in American Catch Wrestling & Judo (Kano Jiujitsu) or sometimes, as in the case of President Theodore Roosevelt, Irish Collar & Elbow Wrestling and Judo. Collar & Elbow Wrestling was extremely popular in north America from the 1700s til late 1800s. It was very much like Judo but without submissions. It did utilize kicking the opponent's shins with one's boots to facilitate kuzushi unbalancing for throws. This kicking the shins with boots was known as "purring". President Abraham Lincoln was famous as a champion Collar & Elbow Wrestler in America. Gene Labell is a Judo master and American Catch Wrestling master of the lineage of Farmer Burns. Rufino Dos Santos studied American Catch Wrestling in the U.S. before returning to Brazil where he challenged the Gracie Jiujitsu (Judo) family and defeated Carlos Gracie in a grappling match. Three of the Gracie brothers, including Helio Gracie and Carlos, retaliated by ambushing catch wrestler Rufino Dos Santos outside his work place, three against one and Helio Gracie was armed with a metal pipe. The three Gracies permanently crippled Rufino Dos Santos out of jeaousy and fear of catch wrestling destroying their lucrative hustle teaching jiujitsu while claiming it was superior to all fighting arts. They couldn't let a catch wrestler ruin their marketing by defeating another Gracie. So they permanently crippled Rufino, mobster style: 3 armed Gracie brothers against 1 unarmed Rufino Dos Santos. And that's how the Gracies created the illusion that their school was the best in Brazil. They resorted to mobster tactics. They were criminals. Rest in peace Rufino. In 1902, U.S. president Teddy Roosevelt converted a room in the white house into a Judo dojo.
Catch wrestling is brutal. The great Karl Gotch and Billy Robinson help bring CACC to Japan. Without them their wouldn't be a Shooto or a Japanese strong style.
I’ve always seen the difference in how they submit and throw: Judo is king at taking advantage of leverage, balance, and momentum, Catch is best for manipulating joints and pressuring them, and Jujutsu used a combination of leverage and balance with natural human reaction, or the way that humans are typically wired to react to certain stimuli.
Depends on the jujitsu system. Some utilize the principle of “ju” extensively and used absolutely no leverage or strength in place of skeletal alignment in correspondence with body motion.
@@jjs3890 if you arent using leverage then you arent doing jujitsu of any kind or catch or judo or sombo they are al dependant o leverage to work.Furthermore,every grappling g style uses strength to apply techniques in real combat,if you are much more skilled you can get away with using less.
Catch wrestlers are definitely one the toughest fighters out there. I always enjoy seeing similarities between different grappling styles. Thank you for sharing ☺️.
This is one of the best videos regarding both Catch Wrestling and Judo/Jiujitsu. Containing a wealth of useful information for individuals interested in practical combat. Thank you Chadi and God bless you and your work.
Hi, Chadi. Thank you for posting this. I enjoy your comparison videos, and when you look at historical sources. By coincidence, I recently had a discussion on the banning of the full/double Nelson in the comments section of one of Ramsey Dewey's videos. Here are some things that might be of interest: -"A Handbook of Wrestling" by Hugh Leonard (1897) mentions the double nelson being illegal in amateur competitions. I would infer that it was legal for pro competitions in that case, particularly since it was demonstrated in that book, and would continue to be demonstrated in later texts. -"Amateur Wrestling" by E.C. Gallagher (1925) lists rule 10, section 1: "Any hold, grip, lock, or trip is allowed except holds for punishment, such as full Nelson hammer lock [sic] above right angles or out from the body. Scissors on the neck or throat, twisting toes or fingers or head hold or knees back when opponent is flat on the mat." Much of this seems identical to what you found in the Japanese book from 1938. -"Wrestle to Win" by Spyros Vorres (1930) mentions that the full Nelson is banned in amateur competition because it "prevents breathing". While there might be some truth to this, the whole discussion developed from my sharing a story from Mark Hewitt's book "Catch Wrestling", where he has a short chapter discussing a death that occurred as one wrestler tried to pin another with a full Nelson, and broke his opponent's neck in 1911. Again, there seems to be a distinction made between what was legal in amateur bouts, and what was legal in professional bouts.
you must be VERY careful to squeeze someone during a stacking pass. A teenager became tetraplegic last year here in Brazil during a BJJ championship because the opponent, clearly not as a finishing, weighted on him during a stacking pass.
@@cahallo5964 There are Four organizations i can think of off hand. Catch Wrestling alliance Old School Grappling Snake Pit(As Mentioned) CSW(Combat Submission Wrestling) Also i Heard a lot of shootos stuff comes from Catch Wrestling.
The biggest problem with Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in the United States is commercialization... all these guys are worried about rank certifications and legitimacy.. it's HILARIOUS when they call someone "fraudulent" Reminds me of those guys who you've just tapped and they say hang on you did that move wrong let me show you something😂
Chadii, you've made another excellent educational piece. I'm obsessed with all the history lessons from your channel. I have a request if you have time. I'd love for you to do a deep dive of the Texas cloverleaf/cross achilles hold.
I wonder if any of these western wrestling books in the NDL are pre 1880. I'd love to find out what book Jigoro Kano found the inspiration for Kata Guruma.
Chadi, you're mixing the terminology. These banned techniques are for "Amateur Catch as Catch Can wrestling", not Professional Catch as Catch Can wrestling. I.e. they are banned in what now would be known as Freestyle/Folkstyle wrestling, no from actual Catch wrestling. Both of these were called Catch wrestling at the time (distinguishing it from other styles of wrestling, such as Greco-Roman / Collar & Elbow / Sambo / Sumo / Mongolian / Pahlevani / etc.).
Nice video. But please don't put out the information about the Full Nelson. ( double as you called it)The "Full" Nelson isn't or ever was a top....50 or maybe even 100 catchwrestling hold. Top Wristlock, double wristlock and the toehold were the most commonly used hold.
My theory: Chadi is immortal and has been filming judo techniques for a long time. All original footage he’s been working on for a few hundred years. Chadi am I correct? 🤔🥷🏻
ju-jitsu vs. catch hmm! Catch wrestling is the real King!!! Dan Kolov 2 times Diamond Belt World Heavyweight Champion (1927, 1933). He won against many famous MMA fighters from that time such as Jeff Lawrence, Stanislaus Zbyszko, Jack Shirey (also called "The Lightning Man"), Rudy Dusek, Jo Stecker, Ed "Strangler" Lewis and Jim Browning. He was invited in Japan, where he claimed victory against Djiki Hegen "The Strangler" - idol in Japan's wrestling, who never lost to anyone before as a professional. After this win, the public tried to kill Kolov.
I learned recently that Farmer Burns, the godfather of american catch wrestling and the mentor of frank gotch, is buried about half an hour from my parents' house.
Sometimes I think you're a bit soft. The hammerlock doesn't seem worse than ude garami. The head scissors a bit worse than a triangle, but certainly nowhere near a can opener. Where I live, hammerlocks are used extensively by the police, so much so that it's named the "police grip" now. Never heard of serious injuries from it.
Biggest difference between Catch and the rest is Catch didn't have illegal holds or moves , every other grappling or fighting art looks childish compared to it. Rippers were tearing arms off , hookers like Burns were beating boxing world champs , Ionki scared the shit out of Ali ffs you can't compare these. Catch is not a martial art it's just what they called fighting humans did since ancient times like Bil Riley said himself we didn't invent anything or discovered...so every other discipline limited the fighting out of fear Catch remained original by keeping Grappling , rough n tumble and no hold barred fights.
Judo has no gi variations of techniques. Always has. Look up Kano’s early Judo training days in Japan. Beginners were always taught with no gi first. Because I need a solid grappling foundation before they can learn how to throw with a gi. Also Jujutsu was never gi based either.
My Grandpa William's was a Catch Wrestler in the 30s and 40s...well, all his life. He grew up in Houston and he and his 4 brothers worked out with the kid next door,whose name was George Wagner. When George became famous later he would not fight any of the William's brothers. He was known as Gorgeous Georfe then.
My Grandpa used to come see me in Judo tournaments in the 60s and 70s and loved it. He was a rough,rough man.
Saw a video of you earlier in match. Looking great!! Tani was beautiful if I remember right, remember kuzushi on uchi Mata ( and every other throw. Looking really good, Chadi!
What's your grandfather's name and did he train with Paul Boesch?
Gorgeous George? That's awesome. I have a black & white picture of my mom as a little kid sitting on his bicep as he posed. My grandfather knew him
@@kristiannoetorres iam not sure they trained with him, but they knew him. My Grandpa was Lee William's, his brothers were Cottin, Dutch, Lester and Floyd, although I dint think Floyd wrestled, he was much younger
My father wrestled catch-as-catch-can in England in the 40s and 50s. In the 60s he sent me to judo, karate, kung fu, which I thought was pretty good. And later I studied jujitsu. After several decades of me studying eastern martial arts, my father, as an old man, showed me all his old catch wrestling techniques which I never knew before, and I was truly amazed at how deadly the locks and throws were, for example, many neck crank varieties, variations of boston crab and other leg, foot, and back locks, lots of wrist twists leading into assorted arm and shoulder locks, standing locks,... etc, which do not exist quite the same in judo/jujitsu. And what also impressed me was the flow of catch wrestling is different to jujitsu in that the grip leading to a lock is usually applied before the bodily position is consolidated, then after the grip as the lock is tightened the bodily position is secured, making the flow to submission of catch wrestling very fast in comparison to securing position then applying the lock. Of course good judo/jujitsu players get good at that too, but my father taught it from beginning, so the locks were learned progressing from the grip to application and positioning, rather than from positioning to grip and application. This made me realise how fast and deadly the old catch wrestlers were.
In the early 1900s it was common for American grapplers to cross train in American Catch Wrestling & Judo (Kano Jiujitsu) or sometimes, as in the case of President Theodore Roosevelt, Irish Collar & Elbow Wrestling and Judo.
Collar & Elbow Wrestling was extremely popular in north America from the 1700s til late 1800s.
It was very much like Judo but without submissions. It did utilize kicking the opponent's shins with one's boots to facilitate kuzushi unbalancing for throws.
This kicking the shins with boots was known as "purring".
President Abraham Lincoln was famous as a champion Collar & Elbow Wrestler in America.
Gene Labell is a Judo master and American Catch Wrestling master of the lineage of Farmer Burns.
Rufino Dos Santos studied American Catch Wrestling in the U.S. before returning to Brazil where he challenged the Gracie Jiujitsu (Judo) family and defeated Carlos Gracie in a grappling match.
Three of the Gracie brothers, including Helio Gracie and Carlos, retaliated by ambushing catch wrestler Rufino Dos Santos outside his work place, three against one and Helio Gracie was armed with a metal pipe. The three Gracies permanently crippled Rufino Dos Santos out of jeaousy and fear of catch wrestling destroying their lucrative hustle teaching jiujitsu while claiming it was superior to all fighting arts.
They couldn't let a catch wrestler ruin their marketing by defeating another Gracie. So they permanently crippled Rufino, mobster style: 3 armed Gracie brothers against 1 unarmed Rufino Dos Santos.
And that's how the Gracies created the illusion that their school was the best in Brazil. They resorted to mobster tactics. They were criminals. Rest in peace Rufino.
In 1902, U.S. president Teddy Roosevelt converted a room in the white house into a Judo dojo.
There’s also a lot of records about challenges between wrestling and jujutsu from that era
It certainly wasnt common in the .late 1800s,judo hadn't even been outside Japan then.Judo was virtually unknown in the states until 1910 or later.
Catch wrestling is brutal. The great Karl Gotch and Billy Robinson help bring CACC to Japan. Without them their wouldn't be a Shooto or a Japanese strong style.
If only they had Jiujitsu like the Brazilians....... 😆
@@SoldierDrew might be a whoosh
@@SoldierDrew Duh
Without them there wouldn't be a "Gracie Killer"
I’ve always seen the difference in how they submit and throw: Judo is king at taking advantage of leverage, balance, and momentum, Catch is best for manipulating joints and pressuring them, and Jujutsu used a combination of leverage and balance with natural human reaction, or the way that humans are typically wired to react to certain stimuli.
Spot on.
@RedFox - Mr Danaher you have brought the spotlight to Submission Grappling! Thank you. Please consider dropping your DVD / On-Demand prices?
Theres no difference at all,all grappling that works use everything you mention.Principles are the same but wrestling techs are different.
Depends on the jujitsu system. Some utilize the principle of “ju” extensively and used absolutely no leverage or strength in place of skeletal alignment in correspondence with body motion.
@@jjs3890 if you arent using leverage then you arent doing jujitsu of any kind or catch or judo or sombo they are al dependant o leverage to work.Furthermore,every grappling g style uses strength to apply techniques in real combat,if you are much more skilled you can get away with using less.
Catch wrestlers are definitely one the toughest fighters out there.
I always enjoy seeing similarities between different grappling styles.
Thank you for sharing ☺️.
These are the foundational rules for American folkstyle interesting because in the 40s submissions were legal in the US.
Thanks for the continuing information The overlap of techniques in different grappling arts is fantastic Thumbs up Chad
This is one of the best videos regarding both Catch Wrestling and Judo/Jiujitsu. Containing a wealth of useful information for individuals interested in practical combat. Thank you Chadi and God bless you and your work.
Hi, Chadi. Thank you for posting this. I enjoy your comparison videos, and when you look at historical sources.
By coincidence, I recently had a discussion on the banning of the full/double Nelson in the comments section of one of Ramsey Dewey's videos. Here are some things that might be of interest:
-"A Handbook of Wrestling" by Hugh Leonard (1897) mentions the double nelson being illegal in amateur competitions. I would infer that it was legal for pro competitions in that case, particularly since it was demonstrated in that book, and would continue to be demonstrated in later texts.
-"Amateur Wrestling" by E.C. Gallagher (1925) lists rule 10, section 1: "Any hold, grip, lock, or trip is allowed except holds for punishment, such as full Nelson hammer lock [sic] above right angles or out from the body. Scissors on the neck or throat, twisting toes or fingers or head hold or knees back when opponent is flat on the mat." Much of this seems identical to what you found in the Japanese book from 1938.
-"Wrestle to Win" by Spyros Vorres (1930) mentions that the full Nelson is banned in amateur competition because it "prevents breathing". While there might be some truth to this, the whole discussion developed from my sharing a story from Mark Hewitt's book "Catch Wrestling", where he has a short chapter discussing a death that occurred as one wrestler tried to pin another with a full Nelson, and broke his opponent's neck in 1911.
Again, there seems to be a distinction made between what was legal in amateur bouts, and what was legal in professional bouts.
Catch is King!
I like old jujutsu wrestling technique from 30s 40s
فيديو اكثر من الرائع!
Nice to see the different systems
Without rules.
you must be VERY careful to squeeze someone during a stacking pass. A teenager became tetraplegic last year here in Brazil during a BJJ championship because the opponent, clearly not as a finishing, weighted on him during a stacking pass.
When I hear the word "Catch" I think of Joel Bane! That is one beast on a man.
Didn't realise Ude Gaeshi was illegal. It's become quite popular in BJJ where it's known as the Tornado Throw
Catch's pretty cool I wish the closest gym wasn't half a country away
Where do you live at?
Snake Pit has affiliates all over
@@cro_magnum I know where they are located
@@cahallo5964 There are Four organizations i can think of off hand.
Catch Wrestling alliance
Old School Grappling
Snake Pit(As Mentioned)
CSW(Combat Submission Wrestling)
Also i Heard a lot of shootos stuff comes from Catch Wrestling.
¡ "HAPPY FATHER'S DAY", ANOTHER INFORMATIVE PRESENTATION (AS ALWAYS) !
The biggest problem with Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in the United States is commercialization... all these guys are worried about rank certifications and legitimacy.. it's HILARIOUS when they call someone "fraudulent"
Reminds me of those guys who you've just tapped and they say hang on you did that move wrong let me show you something😂
Chadii, you've made another excellent educational piece. I'm obsessed with all the history lessons from your channel.
I have a request if you have time. I'd love for you to do a deep dive of the Texas cloverleaf/cross achilles hold.
I wonder if any of these western wrestling books in the NDL are pre 1880. I'd love to find out what book Jigoro Kano found the inspiration for Kata Guruma.
Kata guruma IS a common move in every style of wrestling.
@@atshabal Yes I know that. The thing is, I collect old wrestling books so I'm curious which one Jigoro Kano used as a reference.
Thanx For This,Sir
Chadi, you're mixing the terminology. These banned techniques are for "Amateur Catch as Catch Can wrestling", not Professional Catch as Catch Can wrestling.
I.e. they are banned in what now would be known as Freestyle/Folkstyle wrestling, no from actual Catch wrestling. Both of these were called Catch wrestling at the time (distinguishing it from other styles of wrestling, such as Greco-Roman / Collar & Elbow / Sambo / Sumo / Mongolian / Pahlevani / etc.).
True
Thanks bro your video are so informative
You know I love this video woooo!!!
Great video, nice job
I have been in some of those positions When u are caught in them It hurts bad
Nice video. But please don't put out the information about the Full Nelson. ( double as you called it)The "Full" Nelson isn't or ever was a top....50 or maybe even 100 catchwrestling hold. Top Wristlock, double wristlock and the toehold were the most commonly used hold.
Got it🙇🏻♂️
Buen video, Gracias!
Can you please tell me where you get the Judo videos from ..thanks
My theory: Chadi is immortal and has been filming judo techniques for a long time. All original footage he’s been working on for a few hundred years.
Chadi am I correct? 🤔🥷🏻
Hal Sharp has a channel that has these types of videos. Hal Sharp is the name of the channel.
@@dietrich8820 Hal Sharp videos are awesome!
ju-jitsu vs. catch hmm! Catch wrestling is the real King!!! Dan Kolov 2 times Diamond Belt World Heavyweight Champion (1927, 1933). He won against many famous MMA fighters from that time such as Jeff Lawrence, Stanislaus Zbyszko, Jack Shirey (also called "The Lightning Man"), Rudy Dusek, Jo Stecker, Ed "Strangler" Lewis and Jim Browning. He was invited in Japan, where he claimed victory against Djiki Hegen "The Strangler" - idol in Japan's wrestling, who never lost to anyone before as a professional. After this win, the public tried to kill Kolov.
The Walls of Jericho
Do you know any judo clubs in Japan where I can train
Thanks,
Bro ... japan...it is full of judo clubs
Depends on the prefecture in Japan where you heading. Most of them are going to teach you IJF standard.
@@Katcom111 I would like something old school or traditional
10min
I learned recently that Farmer Burns, the godfather of american catch wrestling and the mentor of frank gotch, is buried about half an hour from my parents' house.
Done judo 24 years I retired
Sometimes I think you're a bit soft. The hammerlock doesn't seem worse than ude garami. The head scissors a bit worse than a triangle, but certainly nowhere near a can opener. Where I live, hammerlocks are used extensively by the police, so much so that it's named the "police grip" now. Never heard of serious injuries from it.
Biggest difference between Catch and the rest is Catch didn't have illegal holds or moves , every other grappling or fighting art looks childish compared to it. Rippers were tearing arms off , hookers like Burns were beating boxing world champs , Ionki scared the shit out of Ali ffs you can't compare these. Catch is not a martial art it's just what they called fighting humans did since ancient times like Bil Riley said himself we didn't invent anything or discovered...so every other discipline limited the fighting out of fear Catch remained original by keeping Grappling , rough n tumble and no hold barred fights.
I teach Jiujitsu and I still want to catch someone in a Sharpshooter lbs
Judo without a jacket is useless, and before someone says so thing about coats and shirts… clothing fabric is thin and rips.
Judo has no gi variations of techniques. Always has. Look up Kano’s early Judo training days in Japan. Beginners were always taught with no gi first. Because I need a solid grappling foundation before they can learn how to throw with a gi. Also Jujutsu was never gi based either.