Hope it at least gave you a few other ideas for ways to tackle the problem. It's definitely a challenge but being in French Polynesia (and the rest of the South Pacific!) more than makes up for it! 😃
@@OutChasingStars we’re leaning towards the isolation transformer but will wait until we’re in New Zealand. There’s too much going on right now. 😂 We’re planning on enjoying the beautiful anchorages in FP so it shouldn’t be a big deal there.
Isolation transformers certainly seem to be the most common way to go. The only real drawbacks are they don't convert frequency so you still have to be careful which appliances you use and they can be small so you may have to manage how much equipment is on at one time. But those are future problems. As you say, lots of beautiful anchorages in FP to enjoy first! 😉
Hi David, did you ever consider the new 12v air conditioner units? They are more money but they seem to be very efficient and avoid the need to have lots of AC power.
Absolutely fabulous,David ‼️‼️👍🏻 This series is perfect for us as we transition from a sailing monohull to a power catamaran. We will be installing Belmar high output alternators and lithium batteries. Hopefully, battery recharge will be as simple as running one engine at low rpms for an hour or 2. No generator,and 3KW minimum of solar. 😊
I liked the video. Thanks for sharing your experience. Another option I don't hear about but what we are going with is to use an Inverter/Charger on Shore Power 1 and dedicated battery charger on SP2. If shore power is 110v/60hz we use SP1. If not we use SP2. Of course a GA is installed on both shore power connections. Also, ELCI for both SP.
David, another great video addition. However, since aircon was the main concern, I'm surprised you did not mention the newer Direct Current (Mabru) aircons. Switching/replacing/building a vessel to DC aircons solves the majority of the frequency issues (as you stated, most electrical equipment is already dual voltage & frequency compatible. Converting to DC aircons would also alleviate the inverter efficiency issues, no soft starts needed and you could install a smaller (less expensive) inverter....so a cost savings (albeit the DC aircons are a little more pricey..so with the savings in inverter size and soft-starts..might be a wash).
I just may have some more insights on DC air cons coming up soon. 😉 You're quite right about a lot of the benefits, but I will say that the DC air cons are more than a "little" pricier so there is a different calculus at play.
Thank you for this information something I did not think about before. I was looking at European boats but this has probably changed my mind since none of the solutions seems great to me. There was one thing that I thought about and I hope this is not a stupid question.Are there any generators that run on electric motors? My thought Wes have a generator on the boat that generates 110V @ 60 HZ that is driven by an electric motor that runs on 230V @50 Hz or vise versa ?
Questions: Does converting AC shore to DC then back to AC result in significant inefficiency (loss)? What percentage? Would going shore through charger into batteries then inverting reduce battery life?
There is definite efficiency loss during the conversion process. I'm not an electrical engineer but my understanding is that AC to DC is more efficient than DC to AC. But so much depends on the set up of your system. For example, the 'rule of thumb' that I've seen constantly mentioned is that a DC to AC inverter has roughly 10% efficiency loss. But our Atlas Shore Power specs show that it is 91-92% efficient (varies depending on load) for the entire AC-DC then DC-AC process. So not sure I can give you exactly numbers unfortunately. As for reduced battery life, I can't seem to find a really good answer on that actually. Most battery life ratings are in Depth Of Discharge cycles, but if you have a charger keeping the State of Charge high, then you technically aren't cycling the batteries by the standard definition. But reactions are still happening internally in the batteries so I imagine there would be some impact on battery life. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable then I am will chime in...
Most Inverters generally have an efficiency loss of between eight and twenty percent. That is just the cost of inversion. Though investing in a charger that can do 120v and 240v is hard to find. The best idea is likely to have two separate chargers that can handle your likely situations at either 50 or 60 hz. Though aircon is again an issue so make sure you have a hefty charger. Ours can do 100 to 130 amps depending on the load...though it is a Victron which is also an inverter. Which two Victron units might be a good solution for international travelers but remember even 120 amps at 12 v is like 10 amps at 120 volts out of an inverter...if I actually did those conversions in my head correctly. So a 12000 but ac on that would be a stretch.
We went the charger big inverter route back in 2008. With lithium and 12v aircon now an everyday option this is even more logical step nowadays. Just wish there was more standardisation of plugs at marinas.
You were definitely an early adopter! And I 100% agree on plug standardization. I find it rather annoying having to rewire our shore power cord for each new country we want to plug in at the marina.
Dear David, thank you for sharing your experience. I still wonder what stopped you from putting much as possible solar and big battery pack on Starry Horizon to get rid of the dependency of shore power? It would save you some diesel too.
This was a great, and very helpful series, thanks! We have a boat on order for 2024 (Seawind 1260), and as I was looking at these options it occurred to me that given the increases in technology, the simple solution may be to just run off solar in a marina. The solar on the 1260 is probably a little on the low side for doing that if you wanted to run A/C all day/night, but I'm hoping they bump it up a little before delivery, or we may add some later. What do you think of that plan?
I have two multiplus 3KVA in parallel, and my aircon is brushless with variable speed (Velair VSD) so no large inrush current. I can charge the batteries using cheap battery chargers and power all my AC loads from my multipluses. Easy solution for modern systems. I actually don't even need to plug into shore power with my solar and 14kWh of LFP.
Air conditioning you well established is a (if not the) major power consumer on board. I am surprise your usually through treatment of such matters did not include one or more of the modern DC powered Air Conditioner alternatives, which operate at significantly lower power consumption than legacy AC powered systems.
Well, perhaps I didn't want to spoil some of the upcoming plans for Starry Horizons... 😉 But you're definitely right, if you have the option and don't mind the extra expense, going with the more efficient DC Air Cons is the way to go. I probably should have at least given it a mention here as well.
I understand your love for Air conditioning on a boat, but this causes additional costs and requirements. Have you considered the case of not having them, and for the money you save, spend it on a luxury hotel when you are in a marina? USD 22,000:- would count for many excellent nights in exotic places, all with cool rooms with Air conditioners. Sometimes we boaters go way too far to convert our land life to near-land luxury life on a boat. Thanks for a good discussion. Just my 2c. Cheers.
One of the fun things about boats is the millions of different ways people set them up. We certainly know a lot of people who go without aircons and thus avoid the problem. But, while they are definitely a 'luxury' item, they were something we wanted on the boat. Not just for the times we're in the marina, but we've definitely had times where we wanted them at anchor as well. As for using a hotel as a substitute, that's an interesting idea. Not every marina we've been to is near a hotel, so there could be a few more logistical challenges with that approach. But that could certainly be one of the options!
Should be no need for a galvanic isolator if you are going with big battery bank and charger and inverter. Your ac is produced on board and is isolated already from green wire shore power with the battery charger.
![LIGHTNING Hits Boats. Here's How to Deal With It [Capable Cruising Guides]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/PurMG7KHdW4/mqdefault.jpg)
Great series David, throughly enjoyed it.
David, you really do an excellent job covering the subject. You nail all the fundamental issues in a clear and well presented way.
Great video! Clear and to the point.
Thanks for the great video David! We’re trying to figure out what to do before we head off to French Polynesia.😬
Hope it at least gave you a few other ideas for ways to tackle the problem. It's definitely a challenge but being in French Polynesia (and the rest of the South Pacific!) more than makes up for it! 😃
@@OutChasingStars we’re leaning towards the isolation transformer but will wait until we’re in New Zealand. There’s too much going on right now. 😂 We’re planning on enjoying the beautiful anchorages in FP so it shouldn’t be a big deal there.
Isolation transformers certainly seem to be the most common way to go. The only real drawbacks are they don't convert frequency so you still have to be careful which appliances you use and they can be small so you may have to manage how much equipment is on at one time.
But those are future problems. As you say, lots of beautiful anchorages in FP to enjoy first! 😉
These are great videos. You have the experience to be an authority.
Thanks David, great content. 👍 🐾🐾
Hi David, did you ever consider the new 12v air conditioner units? They are more money but they seem to be very efficient and avoid the need to have lots of AC power.
I was just about to mention this.
Absolutely fabulous,David ‼️‼️👍🏻 This series is perfect for us as we transition from a sailing monohull to a power catamaran. We will be installing Belmar high output alternators and lithium batteries. Hopefully, battery recharge will be as simple as running one engine at low rpms for an hour or 2. No generator,and 3KW minimum of solar. 😊
I liked the video. Thanks for sharing your experience. Another option I don't hear about but what we are going with is to use an Inverter/Charger on Shore Power 1 and dedicated battery charger on SP2. If shore power is 110v/60hz we use SP1. If not we use SP2. Of course a GA is installed on both shore power connections. Also, ELCI for both SP.
Thanks for series - very good info
David, another great video addition. However, since aircon was the main concern, I'm surprised you did not mention the newer Direct Current (Mabru) aircons. Switching/replacing/building a vessel to DC aircons solves the majority of the frequency issues (as you stated, most electrical equipment is already dual voltage & frequency compatible. Converting to DC aircons would also alleviate the inverter efficiency issues, no soft starts needed and you could install a smaller (less expensive) inverter....so a cost savings (albeit the DC aircons are a little more pricey..so with the savings in inverter size and soft-starts..might be a wash).
I just may have some more insights on DC air cons coming up soon. 😉 You're quite right about a lot of the benefits, but I will say that the DC air cons are more than a "little" pricier so there is a different calculus at play.
Thank you for sharing your ideas and experiences. After reading your responses on the comments below I’m anxious to see what’s next.
Thank you for this information something I did not think about before. I was looking at European boats but this has probably changed my mind since none of the solutions seems great to me. There was one thing that I thought about and I hope this is not a stupid question.Are there any generators that run on electric motors? My thought Wes have a generator on the boat that generates 110V @ 60 HZ that is driven by an electric motor that runs on 230V @50 Hz or vise versa ?
How about just going Solar ?
Questions: Does converting AC shore to DC then back to AC result in significant inefficiency (loss)? What percentage? Would going shore through charger into batteries then inverting reduce battery life?
There is definite efficiency loss during the conversion process. I'm not an electrical engineer but my understanding is that AC to DC is more efficient than DC to AC. But so much depends on the set up of your system.
For example, the 'rule of thumb' that I've seen constantly mentioned is that a DC to AC inverter has roughly 10% efficiency loss. But our Atlas Shore Power specs show that it is 91-92% efficient (varies depending on load) for the entire AC-DC then DC-AC process. So not sure I can give you exactly numbers unfortunately.
As for reduced battery life, I can't seem to find a really good answer on that actually. Most battery life ratings are in Depth Of Discharge cycles, but if you have a charger keeping the State of Charge high, then you technically aren't cycling the batteries by the standard definition. But reactions are still happening internally in the batteries so I imagine there would be some impact on battery life. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable then I am will chime in...
Most Inverters generally have an efficiency loss of between eight and twenty percent. That is just the cost of inversion. Though investing in a charger that can do 120v and 240v is hard to find. The best idea is likely to have two separate chargers that can handle your likely situations at either 50 or 60 hz. Though aircon is again an issue so make sure you have a hefty charger. Ours can do 100 to 130 amps depending on the load...though it is a Victron which is also an inverter. Which two Victron units might be a good solution for international travelers but remember even 120 amps at 12 v is like 10 amps at 120 volts out of an inverter...if I actually did those conversions in my head correctly. So a 12000 but ac on that would be a stretch.
We went the charger big inverter route back in 2008. With lithium and 12v aircon now an everyday option this is even more logical step nowadays. Just wish there was more standardisation of plugs at marinas.
You were definitely an early adopter! And I 100% agree on plug standardization. I find it rather annoying having to rewire our shore power cord for each new country we want to plug in at the marina.
Dear David, thank you for sharing your experience. I still wonder what stopped you from putting much as possible solar and big battery pack on Starry Horizon to get rid of the dependency of shore power? It would save you some diesel too.
You may want to keep an eye out for some of our upcoming plans for SH... 😉
This was a great, and very helpful series, thanks! We have a boat on order for 2024 (Seawind 1260), and as I was looking at these options it occurred to me that given the increases in technology, the simple solution may be to just run off solar in a marina. The solar on the 1260 is probably a little on the low side for doing that if you wanted to run A/C all day/night, but I'm hoping they bump it up a little before delivery, or we may add some later. What do you think of that plan?
Well, you may want to keep an eye out for some of our future plans for Starry Horizons. I do like simple solutions! 😉
I have two multiplus 3KVA in parallel, and my aircon is brushless with variable speed (Velair VSD) so no large inrush current. I can charge the batteries using cheap battery chargers and power all my AC loads from my multipluses. Easy solution for modern systems. I actually don't even need to plug into shore power with my solar and 14kWh of LFP.
Air conditioning you well established is a (if not the) major power consumer on board. I am surprise your usually through treatment of such matters did not include one or more of the modern DC powered Air Conditioner alternatives, which operate at significantly lower power consumption than legacy AC powered systems.
Well, perhaps I didn't want to spoil some of the upcoming plans for Starry Horizons... 😉 But you're definitely right, if you have the option and don't mind the extra expense, going with the more efficient DC Air Cons is the way to go. I probably should have at least given it a mention here as well.
Just stick to 230v 50hz. It's technically the global standard.
I understand your love for Air conditioning on a boat, but this causes additional costs and requirements. Have you considered the case of not having them, and for the money you save, spend it on a luxury hotel when you are in a marina? USD 22,000:- would count for many excellent nights in exotic places, all with cool rooms with Air conditioners. Sometimes we boaters go way too far to convert our land life to near-land luxury life on a boat. Thanks for a good discussion. Just my 2c. Cheers.
One of the fun things about boats is the millions of different ways people set them up. We certainly know a lot of people who go without aircons and thus avoid the problem. But, while they are definitely a 'luxury' item, they were something we wanted on the boat. Not just for the times we're in the marina, but we've definitely had times where we wanted them at anchor as well.
As for using a hotel as a substitute, that's an interesting idea. Not every marina we've been to is near a hotel, so there could be a few more logistical challenges with that approach. But that could certainly be one of the options!
Good stuff, 👍🦘
Should be no need for a galvanic isolator if you are going with big battery bank and charger and inverter. Your ac is produced on board and is isolated already from green wire shore power with the battery charger.