WATCH THIS before you DEFORK your scope!

[@steveibbotson1214]

Deforked my Meade LX200mm as the 25 year old electronics failed once too often. Gets more use now than when it was in the forks.
Horses for courses.

[@andrewoler1]

Wow thanks for the video. I have a CPC 800 I got used and didn’t realize I could easily turn it into an equatorial mount just by getting the wedge. Definitely convinced me.

[@Cornz38]

Same here but boy, the wedges are expensive.

[@k.h.1587]

There are so many advantages to a german equatorial mount. Some even can track way past the meridian flip. And even if the mount cant track past the meridian flip, the other headaches of a wedged fork, especially the weight in the bigger models, that you have to lift even higher and at an angle. I had a c11 on a G11 and loved it for years, but I had to put everything in storage because I had to move onto my boat. Eventually I was spotted loading musical instruments into storage by some tweakers hanging out, and it got broken into and I lost pretty much everything I owned.
It was an older G11 with the non folding tripod, which just looks like pipes and some strange rocket launcher to a tweaker, so they didn't take it, or my counterweights and guidescope rings and other losmandy hardware.
When my situation improved a bit 18 months later (I had been kicked out of the marina which is why I was putting even more stuff in storage because I was going to have to live in my van until I was able to get housing, which ended up taking 18 months), I put the tripod and gear up on a facebook used astronomy gear page, and someone who knew me had an old 10" meade LX6/premiere, which I got in trade, so it was almost like replacing my C11 rig for free. I don't like big scopes in forks on wedges, but I had to take advantage of it because it is better than nothing. It even came with the giant trunk case that used to come with meade scopes back in the day.
This was MUCH harder to setup than my G11, which had a 40# mount head, that only had to be lifted to tripod height and not at an angle. The 50# 10" w/fork is much harder to deal with and transport, as the single case is much harder to fit in a vehicle than 2 smaller cases for the OTA and mount head, not to mention the massive super wedge, which is a pain to take on and off the tripod, so most just leave it attached, is a heavy and awkward load as well, and not at all compact like a folded or dissambled g11 tripod.
And in many cases, certainly my lx6 or an LX90 in 10" and larger, less stable. Yes the CPC is probably the best fork on the market, I love them for what they are, and sold many more of them than lx90s and lx200s during the 2006-2011 period I worked ar opt, but I still didnt recommend them for use on a wedge for astrophotography, unless they had a permanent observatory and just didnt want to pay the higher price for an EQ system. With all the balance weights and the more difficulty in polar alignment (yes a wedge is a bit more fidgety that way), they really only make sense in permanet installations, unless it is just an 8" which is much easier to deal with than a 10, 11 or 12.
Needless to say my 10" has only been taken to a dark site once, as another friend sold me a powerstar c8 for $200 and a beat up 10" starhopper for $60, and i now had an easier to transport and set up 10", and a respectable 8" for a price I could afford. But i still had plans to use that old 10" at public outreach events after the pandemic, or occasionally bring it to a dark site, since it does have better optics than the dob, which needs a recoat on the primary, and of course tracking which helps at higer powers. I cant use my 28mm 82deg or 20mm 100deg eyepieces on it though, as it overwhelmed the dec clutch and I would have to buy a weight rail system for it... another fork/wedge issue adding cost weight and hassle.
I had another run of bad luck though, losing the van that was loaded with my 8" dob, 127 mak, omni102, CG5 and nexstar GT mounts, and an old vixen 60mm refractor on its AZ mount, and several guitars/basses and a few amps, and new in box electronic drum set among other personal valuables still in the van from when I lived in it. I was in a compromised situation, it was broken down and got impounded and I was prevented from getting it out in time. My stuff was literally legally stolen by a corrupt city in an even more corrupt county.
And the vehicle I got stuck with is way to small for even the 10" dob let alone the 10" meade. The c8 might even be too big unless I take it without the case, and i prefer not to do that, so I havent done any observing in the last 3 years.
I agree in the case of someone with a cpc800, just buying a wedge instead of deforking (you don't have to throw it away, there is a market for working CPC and gps and later LX200 forks), as a much cheaper solution, but on the bigger models, it only makes sense for permanent installations.
The CPC is the best visual and planetary/lunar imaging as ab alt az, but for those planning to do long exposures, the best advice is to stear clear of the forks and just buy a cgem, cgx or cgx-l (cge back in the day) version of the same scope.
I miss my CG11 rig dearly, not to mention my other scopes and music/audio/recording gear and everything else I own, but I am thankful to at least own these vintage fork/wedge replacements for the GEM mounted 11" and 8" scopes, even though replacing my televue refractors with even chinese apos is out of my range.
That 10" may come off the forks eventually, unless a cheap 10-12" truss dob comes my way.

[@stefanschneider3681]

I did try the wedge for my NexStar 6SE for which I had bought the StarSense-Camera for alignment before. And although really trying hard I never got it running well together. I took a step back, got a StarAdventurer GTi and use it just with the camera and different lenses and that works fine for me at the moment. And if everything works perfectly I sometimes really put the 6''-SC-telescope a this mount and it works! But I want to keep it simple and portable, so next step is probably a small refraction-telescope for the GTi. Thanks for the video and greetings us em Thurgau!

[@viewintospace]

The one-armed versions were never meant for the wedge - way too unstable. And these days I kind of changed my thinking about wedges in general. You never get the accuracy needed for such high focal ranges....

[@k.h.1587]

​@@viewintospaceyet celestron still offers a wedge for them and worse yet gave them an autoguider port to further raise expectations.
Another example of the marketing dept winning over the actual astronomers in the company, which is why they still sell powerseeekers. Meade is even worse on the low end of the market, and bobblehead etx125 and 12" lx90

[@horaciodortona574]

I have a fork mounted vintage Super c8+ with a Edward R. Byers mount that I wouldn't dream of deforking for an EQ mount. I also have a sliding counter weight that I use with heavy 2 inch eyepieces but not necessary with 1.25's and like you stated no meridian flip like an EQ mount. I love my c8 and I haven't found a reason to upgrade and probably won't. I have a 4 inch apo as a compliment for lower powers and wide fields which are fantastic but for the planets and smaller objects the c8 performs marvelously. Thanks for the video. Clear Skies.

[@k.h.1587]

I have a powerstar c8 with the byers drive (but not named on the base like the older AC drive versions were). I don't think I would ever de fork it, as I don't need goto. In fact, In my previous incarnation before I got robbed, I had sold my gm8 mount that I used with either my 8" lx200R ota , televue101 or c4r, because a modest cg5 with an RA drive was all I needed , and I still had my g11 if I wanted to image. I needed to downsize and I needed money so sacrificing my main imaging mount made sense at the time since I could always tune up that g11 which was mainly used with my c11.
I did get robbed, and had to replace the 8" rig with a great deal on the powerstar, no additional mount purchase required, and a straight trade on an old 1991 meade 10" lx premiere to replace the c11. The tweakers didn't know to take the tripod and weights for the g11, or my losmandy and adm guidescope rings, so I was able to trade that stuff straight across for the 10"
But yeah, I couldn't use my 28mm 82 or 20mm 100deg eps on the 10 as it overwhelmed the dec clutch and I don't have a weight system for it. IiRC I could do it on the 8, but it has been 3 years since I have used them since I had another spat of bad luck and lost my van that was loaded with some other scopes, mounts and music gear a few years ago, so my transport ability for the larger scopes was eliminated.
On the next clear night I may set the c8 out front, just to see if the big eyepieces can be used without a weight system on that scope.

[@choppermontana8212]

I haven't really met someone who wants to de-fork a perfectly working SCT/wedge mount. In my experience it is people who own older Meade and Celestron SCT's who's mounts are losing their tracking, circuit boards are failing, or some other mechanical/electrical issue. Meade and Celestron don't keep many spare parts for older scopes in stock. So to save and continue to use their OTA's they de-fork them and add a rail so they can mount them on other mounts such as GEM's.

[@viewintospace]

Makes sense!

[@mojojojo7923]

@@choppermontana8212 no it’s the Meade junk that has all kinds of mother board issues. Just look it up on cloudy nights

[@davidpendley5224]

Excellent video. Thank you. I totally agree with your reasons not to defork. To me, not having to worry about the meridian flip is the best. Although, I am concerned about backfocus creating a lack of space between the camera and mount.
I have been working to get the most accuracy out of my system. I have a CPC 925 on a wedge using a ZWO ASIAir Plus for most functions. Prior to using the ASIAir, my alignment process is to manually point the tripod to the North. Level. The go through the Celestron two star alignment (to orient the mount). I then pick Polaris and slew to the pole star. Once pointing at Polaris, I switch modes to using the ASIAir for polar alignment.
My concern is the small angle of offset between the Celestial Pole and Polaris. This angle is maintained throughout the polar alignment and follows into Astrophotography. Even with ASIAir guiding, I see minor drifting in the images. The ASIAir is programmed to keep the target centered. So, after about an hour, the ASIAir recenters the target.
I have considered finding a method to move the tube to a 90 degree position instead of using Polaris as the GOTO target of the CPC. I haven't tried this method but I believe it can be handled by going to specific coordinates on the CPC handset.
I suspect that the drift is due to the described angle. From your experience, how do you handle polar alignment with the forked scope?

[@viewintospace]

Hi David To be quite honest, I changed my opinion over time. Polar Alignment with the Celestron Software was an extreme drag and I never achieved a decent RMS for this focal length. So last year I removed the wedge and use the CPC exclusively for planetary and lunar photography. This year I will defork it given I have now a mount which also does not require meridian flips.

[@k.h.1587]

​@@viewintospacedon't defork it, keep it as is and just buy a better optical tube for imaging, or a 2nd c8 or meade 8" acf. I'm sure my stolen pre lawsuit usa made meade 8" lx200R ota is out there on the market....

[@walterlewis1029]

Thank you Sasha for doing this Video.Right now the HD Pro Wedge is on Sale.

[@joek12569]

I have owned and used CPCs with forks and wedges for about 35 years. 8”, 11” and an 11” Edge Hd for the past 5 years. All have been pier mounted in a backyard roll off roof obs. Never had any serious thoughts until recently about deforking. The two main issues that are prompting this are the I am limited to max declinations of 60 degrees to prevent camera from crashing in to the mount unless I am using Hyperstar. Recently I purchased a StarSense Autoguider and when I use it in conjunction with CPWI the mount will randomly disconnect. I have tried everything, even contacted Celestron, so far with no positive results. I think the I may have a bug in my mount electronics.

[@Dreadlockyx]

Thanks for the video, great insights. Wedge on the buy list !

[@figzastro-photography]

Good video. But adding the wedge and all the other accessories for astrophotography will make the CPC a lot heavier to move around. I had a CPC 1100 with the wedge with a scope buggy but it still too heavy. I deforked it and got an AM5 and now it has become allot easier to move and setup.

[@viewintospace]

Yes, the overall rig is way too heavy to lift - even with the CPC-800. But as long as you can leave the tripod and wedge outside and "only" move the telescope in and out, it is absolutely doable. That said, I understand that with the 1100 it might be a different story all together.

[@k.h.1587]

​@@viewintospacenot everyone has a good place to leave a tripod and wedge outside, most of us have to drive put to dark skies.

[@donaldmartin7109]

I purchase my from ebay the cpc1100 added a wedge. My mistake buying from a seller. Never worked correctly. When I defort this telescope I know this will be good. I purchased a lemon and did not dispute this in time. My fault. Thank you for posting.

[@viewintospace]

Sorry to hear that

[@k.h.1587]

Celestro might be able to fix any issues.
But nothing fixes the hassle of dealing with that big of a scope in a fork/wedge configuration unless it is permanently mounted in an observatory

[@bobbeanbags]

Great video! Are there any problems with the camera hitting the spot between the wedge? How can you avoid this?

[@viewintospace]

When the image train is longer than the space below the fork you have this problem wedge or not. Just with alt-az the Problem is evenly distributed (forget shooting zenith at all), with the wedge you have ample space as long as you are shooting SW to SE, but in the Northern Direction you can not shoot to high. It is just something to consider when selecting objects. If you really need to shoot in a direction you can‘t because of this issue, adding a diagonal in between can resolve it. But given you are adding an additional optical element which can decrease the overall quality, I would only do that for specific cases.

[@mojojojo7923]

He usually goes like this my meat Alex 200 motherboard is fried and now it doesn’t work so I’m going to defer it so I don’t have to throw the whole scope away

[@k.h.1587]

I love meat Alex 200s, was that autocorrect or speech to text?
My favorite Alex is Lifeson, better known as Lerxt

[@chenjack4766]

Thanks for the video.
Just wondering how do you prevent the image train to hit the arm base? Because the gap between the visual back and the control panel base is too short, especially CPC11HD

[@viewintospace]

I guess it is for all CPCs too short - I have this issue too. The issue is also there if you use it without wedge.... With the wedge the area west - south - east is not an issue, you can even slew up to zenith, but the other half has a huge blind spot. I deal with it that I simply shoot objects what are feasible from the free movement point of view, and until now that this not handicape me too much. There would be a way to solve the issue, and that is to use a diagonal, but given that is another optical device which might reduce the quality and add other issues I did not pursue this until now.

[@davidschlomer3311]

How did you attach your dovetail, and where to buy the weights?

[@viewintospace]

There are special dovetails from Baader, which fit to the screws of the Celestron SCTs. I also have the weight from Baader. www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/language/en/info/p5324_Baader-Prismenschiene-Vixen-EQ5-Level-fuer-Celestron-C8-und-8--EHD.html www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p752_Baader-Balance-Weight-1kg-with-Vixen-Level-Clamp.html

[@astrostoky]

does the wedge polar setup work with PHD2 guiding?

[@viewintospace]

Yes, it does - don’t expect perfect results, but within it limits it works! Preferably use OAG and not a guidescope!

[@astrostoky]

Thanks. I did install HD wedge on my CPC11. EQ North alignment was easy. Was about to get Svbony 60mm guide scope but your advise led me to ZWO OAG-L instead : )

[@fredmercury1314]

My concern would be that the azimuth motor is designed for the forces to be pushing directly down, not at some crazy angle.

[@viewintospace]

Might be or not - but fact is that this motor is crazy strong and the experience I and many other CPC owners have is that it tracks (with guiding obviously) very accurate, even with a high payload present.

[@fredmercury1314]

@@viewintospace I have an Evo8 with the one fork leg. Is that a problem with a wedge? I'm not expecting miracles but some people insist it's flimsy.
My biggest problem though, is that some dummy put a house in the way of Polaris.

[@viewintospace]

I have some good and some bad news: Your biggest problem is no problem at all. With the CWPI software of Celestron you can polar align your scope on any reference stars - no need for Polaris at all. The bad news is, yes, you can't compare a one armed scope to a forked one. The motor is much weaker, the one armed concept makes it less stable and what I hear also the tripod is less sturdy. So it depends on your budget and your expectations. An Eco8 with a wedge gives you definitely more options than in Alt-Az mode. But for sure "dearming" your Evo8 and put the scope on a real EQ mount will still be a much bigger improvement and gives you all the options you might want to consider in the future.....

[@fredmercury1314]

@@viewintospace But it looks so cool. :/

[@bored9260]

Ill buy a 9 1/4 or a 11 edge hd right now if I can figure out what is compatible with the fork mount.

[@bored9260]

Mainly plate solving is my issue of uncertainty… I want to land for example Orion on 4 to 8 different corners on each exposure. Then glue all the pictures together 🤷‍♂️
That way I can eliminate all hot pixels, dead pixel or anything not part of the sky. 🤔 I don’t want to buy an eq mount and struggle with cable management. My backyard is bortle 4 20.77 sqm I’m sure the eagle 4 will tell me it’s a 5 but again I don’t understand the software based on the current trend.
Less then 30 minutes away bortle class 3-2 or 1 hour drive bortle class 1. 🤷‍♂️

[@MrWacha]

I think you missed one other possibility to improve on AltAz mounts for imaging - automated camera rotators. These can be had at the same price level as wedge only so same levwl of investment!
Out of pure curiosity - what are your RMS numbers on the eq wedged CPC 800?
I wonder if this would be similar to Meade LX90 8" - can anybody share their experience? That'd be much appreciated.
I'm in a process of getting (second) eq mount and deforking from LX90. I hate how outdated this moumt is (in terms of PC control/connectivity), although it is rather good for visual and planetary/lunar imaging.
But this poor connectivity and short distance between visual back and the base make it a deal. Braker for me...

[@viewintospace]

I just do some shooting and my total RA is presently 0.35 (1.35'')

[@MrWacha]

@@viewintospace thanks for following through with data!
My believe is that RMS >1 arc-sec is considered as rather poor performance (and it seems we're only talking RA, which would imply even worse when DEC is added for total RMS). This would only work for plate scales of > 2.5-3 arcsec/px for long exposure. You can of course try with lower scale and lucky imaging technique, but I'd imagine disacrd ratio would be quite high. Am I missing something here? I am specifically interested what warrented opinion that EQ wedge can provide performance similar to traditional GEM as the example data do not support this view. This is genuine Q as I am on the crossroad in my upgrade planning decision. I am looking to image at < 1"/px at long FL of 8" ACF reduced to F/6.3 (or F/6.2 if I'll change reducer to Lupus to better march already corrected optics). Would you still advise to go with wedge?

[@m1thumb]

I have a nexstar 6" on a wedge. Wedge works fine, despite many detractors. I would like to get a C9.25 CPC or 10" LX600 with wedge as my next scope because I like visual and imaging. But, like @chenjack4766 mentioned below to which you replied, clearance is an issue. I use a diagonal, and for my needs now it's fine. In the future I don't want to limit the areas I can image or introduce a diagonal. The 9.25 looks like it may have more clearance the C11 using the same forks. Good video, I enjoy your content.

[@viewintospace]

Clearance is an issue for sure and the only remedy is the diagonal, which is not optimal I fully agree

[@AstroRef68]

Excellent video
I have cpc 9.25 on fork
I was back and forth with my decision
I was about to sale my cpc because GM EQ
NOW YOU HELPED me a lot
Thanks so much
One question what dovetails I need to buy for weight and additive scopes?

[@viewintospace]

www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/language/en/info/p5325_Baader-Prismenschiene-V-Level-fuer-Celestron-9-25---11-SC---EHD.html

[@viewintospace]

And here the weight - must not be exactly this one but just that you understand the concept: www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p752_Baader-Balance-Weight-1kg-with-Vixen-Level-Clamp.html

[@AstroRef68]

I see the dovetail plate is the same celestron is selling fo under $45
That’s helpful to know
Thanks

[@bored9260]

I am thinking of getting a cpc deluxe 🤷‍♂️ however there is not alot of information out there. Doesn’t tell me if the eagle 4, asi air plus, or phd2 works with the celestron fork mount. 🤷‍♂️ it seems like people are taking astro images but i don’t see compatibility. 🤷‍♂️ maybe the set up is to expensive for most.

[@viewintospace]

1. You might go with a regular CPC (not HD) and buy the Starizona Reducer/Flattner - you get almost the same result for less money. The CPC is NOT compatible with the ASIAIR (no matter what else you read about this topic) BUT it works like a charm over ASCOM. And with that if works fine with NINA and PHD2.

[@leeguilfoyle9481]

Your position assumes that whoever deforks a CPC setup throws away the mount and thereby its a lost cost. You don't properly address the option of selling the mount to recover costs against a GEM purchase or indeed repurposing the CPC mount by removing the non-motor arm and adapting a dovetail clamp on the single remaining arm allowing the mount to carry other OTA's.

[@viewintospace]

To be quite honest I never heard of anyone doing that and the idea also did not cross my mind, but I like it! Cool idea - if it is feasible, could be a great option.....

[@leeguilfoyle9481]

@@viewintospace very doable, I have done this with my own CPC1100. The only electronics in the non-motor arm is the GPS module and that is simply removed with screws. It does leave a hole where the non-motor arm was but a bit of bent metal or a 3D printer part would cover that and the GPS module can be attached to the new blanking plate. There is also the other option of keeping both arms and building a bridging plate between the two arms with a dovetail plate screwed in the middle.

[@k.h.1587]

Another option is to make a tray that swings between the forks. I have seen people do this to mount giant binoculars. It can work with shorter refractors as well, but long ones will be limited in altitude because of the rather large UFO of an azimuth assembly on the CPC

[@clayking4617]

My LX50 will never be deforked. I can push to faster than most GOTO's can get on target and my short 15 second subs are just as good as anyone else's at 1/4 the cost.

[@k.h.1587]

15 second subs isn't saying much though.
1/4 the cost is, but surely you could eek out longer subs, at least 30 secs. Are use using a reducer?

[@lenjones2268]

Hi Sascha...I'm from UK but my wife is Swiss from Lohningen Schaffhausen.
Would like to meet up sometime
I use ES 127Ed FCD100 Carbon on EQ6R with ASI 2600 mono setup....maybe we could meet sometime in Switzerland

[@viewintospace]

Sure, would be great meeting you!

[@lenjones2268]

@@viewintospace I'll messages you when in Switzerland...Gruezi

[@markwelsh9068]

Isn't this an argument specifically for a CPC though? How about if you have a Celestar 8 with wedgepod and only RA drive? Would you consider that differently when it comes to deforking?

[@viewintospace]

Yes, I would consider it differently. Be it from the stability of the tripod, one arm instead of the fork or the power of the motor - there are many differences. So I would say for serious astrophotography a one armed SCT should rather be deforked.

[@markwelsh9068]

@@viewintospace The Celestar 8 has two forks though.

[@sjstanich]

Hi Sascha, great video!!.. I have a nexstar 8se and I'm loocking for a wedge. What do you think is going to work on my setup? Is the wedge good for nexstar?

[@viewintospace]

Hi Sebastian there is one big difference between the CPC and the Nexstar - and this is the payload capacity. It is much smaller than with a CPC and this might, depending on your setup, affect the guiding ability and accuracy. While I would not say the wedge does not work for the Nexstar, it is not such a clear cut case as with the CPC and you should read some first person experience reports. When it comes to the payload issue, I found this: www.cloudynights.com/topic/368587-8se-mounts-12-lb-payload-limit-issue/

[@davidziegler6620]

How do you do polar alignment?

[@viewintospace]

I use CWPI for that - ASPA Polar Alignment . Absolutely great and easy as it can be done with any stars - no polar star needed

[@Goldiney]

Won't work if you want to use AAP. CPC mounts w/ a wedge are incompatible with AAP

[@viewintospace]

Sorry, what is AAP?

[@Goldiney]

@@viewintospace Sorry. ASI AIR Plus / Pro

[@viewintospace]

@@Goldiney Weeeell, this is a complicated topic..... When I got my CPC I investigated this and 95% of people said, it will not work. So I went with NINA. But in the recent months I find more and more accounts, which state it works fine.... Quite honestly, as do not want to lock myself into the ZWO environment, for me this topic is irrelevant, but just saying, there "seems" to be a high likelihood that it works...