Hear the difference: Untreated Vs Treated Room Acoustics
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 15 фев 2021
- What is the difference acoustic treatments really make on a space? See for yourself in this video where we test the same room with and without treatment using a variety of sound sources and styles.
Get Free Room Advice:
www.gikacoustics.com/acoustic...
Product Test Information:
www.gikacoustics.com/downloads/
Song: Let Me Be by Jade (All Sounds of the World)
Artist: Jade ( / )
Music promoted by All Sounds of the World - No Copyright Music.
Video Link: • Let Me Be by Jade (R&B...
Song: Under My Skin
Video Link: • Frank Sinatra - Under ...
"There’s a lot of practical reasons why people acoustically treat their rooms. It makes recording and mixing music easier. It can make it easier to concentrate, work or study, and it can drastically improve the experience of listening to music and movies.
I could list off more reasons why you might want to treat your room, but the best way to illustrate why is to show you the difference it makes on a common-sized room for critical listening and Professional Audio purposes.
The room we’re working with is 17” by 13” with ceilings just shy of eight feet. We’ll set up the speakers along a short wall and set the listening position so it forms an equilateral triangle with the speakers.
Let’s run the room Eq wizard and see what we get.
Right away we can see we’ve got some pretty big peaks and nulls. If we take a look at the waterfall graph we can clearly see the fall off from the lingering echo in the room.
Let's throw some basic treatment into the room and see what we get.
For this room we’re using 242’s for the first reflections on the walls and ceiling. In the corners we’ve stacked two impression series tri-traps per corner. The front wall has a nice 4inch art panel and for the back wall I’ve got 6 monsters. There’s also some 4 inch art panels along the side walls.
This new test shows a drastic improvement in the frequency response especially in the 100Hz to 200hHz range with the untreated peaks and nulls now being smoothed out. Room EQ wizard is a great tool for identifying what specific frequencies are causing issues.
From here we can determine what kind of treatment we’d need to improve the frequency response even further.
We could get a flatter response in the bass tones by using thicker panels for our first reflections or by treating the horizontal corners of the room with bass traps.
Looking at the waterfall graph we can see a steeper falloff representing less echo.
It’s easy to see when we compare graphs that the treatment had a positive effect on the room, but how does it sound?
Here’s a test playing back music in the same room before and after treatment.
It’s easy to hear the reflections blend notes together in the untreated room making the playback sound muddy.
Again here’s the same room with a simple recording test.
Just as with the playback test, individual notes are much clearer in the treated room without the reflections bouncing into the mic. These improvements are most noticeable in the high energy bass frequencies. Without proper bass treatment it would be impossible to cut a mix without having to test it across multiple sound systems.
With a thorough GIK treatment you can be confident that your mix is accurate and we have the tools and knowhow to guide you through every step of the process, so if you need help testing and treating your room visit our website where you can find articles, videos, and tools that’ll help you get the best sound in your space."
This is the video more audio enthusiast need to see. What a fantastic demonstration! Thumbs way up.
Glad you liked it!
Oh my God, I was searching for a channel like yours for almost 2 years... Either I'm really bad at finding information online or it's very poorly promoted by youtube. With that comment out of the way I'm getting ready for an all nighter with your videos, thank you and keep it up!!
Wow, thanks!
It's amazing the way a room affects the quality of the sound!
We agree!
Really useful video, man. The difference in sound washiness is really apparent.
Excellent demos!
was hoping for a version of this video done with room eq and a sound demo but this was quite nice.
GIK spent time on the phone with me and developed a treatment; very nice of them. Most people (probably not on this thread) have no idea what accurate quality sound is let alone the huge difference the room makes. Actually, the more one spends on a system, the money wasted grows exponentially without a proper room treatment.
I had same effect- GIK did a great job designing the panels for my spare room. The before and after was stunning.
This video is very useful thanks to real audio examples at the end
Glad it was helpful!
If only my room was this rectangular and simple
you guys are rockstars
thank you for this
Great video, thank you!
Glad you liked it!
Good stuff. I can really hear the echo in the untreated clips. Big difference!
Bless this channel. I swtg this stuff is not this detailed anywhere else
Thanks for the kind words! Make sure you subscribe so you can stay up to date on our newest educational videos.
Awesome video!
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it.
You guys should really do one example with drums of before and after. That one would be a real eye opener. Even better a band rehearsal space.
Great suggestion!
Looking to point you in the direction of a couple of videos with Dylan Wissing, a session drummer, who did a shootout with our PolyFusors and Alpha Pro Series. That said, we are always looking for more examples of drummers using our products, as the effect on recording and playback on this instrument is significant!
ruclips.net/video/7ra4X5sJtEs/видео.html
@@GIKAcousticsLLC you guys are based in ATL...I'm sure there's still live music venues that are closed. Would be great if you guys could rent one out to demonstrate what your products could do for a small cap room or dive bar. Including the impact different product lines have on the rooms sound.
@@GIKAcousticsLLC please, make a musicians practice video. For example, I am violin player and looking forward how to improve my bedroom a acoustics for practicing and recording violin.
Your listening room is the most important component in your system ...get that right and you are on your way!
Great demo
Thanks! Glad you liked it.
Wow!!!!
Wow
the untreated one sounds like your inside a really cozy jazz themed cafe
1:24 The moment of joy :D
Why did you choose to place the speaker as close as possible to the wall instead of further out?
Does sitting closer to speakers improve acoustics? How close would you have to sit in order to substantially reduce room reflections?
Wow night and day
Niice
Yeah, that was quite dramatic, but what I"d really like to hear is the difference between a typical average living room with curtains, furniture, etc vs after treatment. It's obvious that a tiny cube shaped highly reflective cave is going to have horrible acoustics. I was once sitting in a living room in a house we were moving out of and there was nothing in it but a couple of folding chairs. It was still carpeted and consisted of actual plaster walls (what a concept), not that chalk and paper crap you can fall against and put your hand through, so they were very live.
On a whim I clapped and you could hear the impulse bounce back and forth between the walls probably about 10 reverberations before the sound pressure envelope went below audible levels. It also made obvious the room's fundamental resonant frequency in that axis quite well. I expect that that room in that condition (no curtains, couches, chairs, etc.) would have sounded pretty much like your before example...atrocious. Maybe even worse.
The first time I realized how dramatically room acoustics could influence speaker sound was when I took some Maggie MG Is I owned back then to a large fellowship hall to play some recordings for people interested in hearing what my father had recorded in Kyiv Ukraine from a choir director we had that went their to start a music mission and introduce many of them to the Bachs, Mozarts, Verdis, etc in this world. I had NEVER heard them sound like that. Not remotely to the extent of your before and after (I would never set a stereo up in a room that bad, except as a joke) but QUITE different in their own right.
Thanks for the vid, I will be putting this and the downloaded materials to use on my current system which consists of Magneplanar IIIs and a 15" Velodyne servo sub. And I wanna tell ya, finding a good position for that sub is a nightmare. It reaches down into the cellar, frequency wise, and at high SPL and will excite even the long axis of even a rather large room...much larger than mine. That's where I am hoping some intelligently placed and chosen sound deadening might pay real dividends, at least to start. Then I will move up in frequency, where I have no doubt the real frustration and headaches will begin.
It will all be worth it. At least that's what I always tell myself at the outset of such a voyage. I did just recently pick up a DSP for the car system I just finished (cars are HORRIBLE sound environments, shocker huh?) especially when they want to place what are now the midranges in the dash at a position that essentially loads them with a gigantic horn. I'm STILL trying to talk her into a mounting for those somewhere preferrable to that position but so far am not having much luck. The deal was that is had to look the same or better than it did, aesthetically, when I was finished. I did finally talk her into allowing me to mount the tweeter silk stood off in the front corner of the windows, but so far moving the mids is a no go.
MAN, does having that REW S/W, a decent calibrated mic, and the DSP (NEVER buy one that doesn't have a computer interface for control BTW) make a pretty serious difference in the car. The delays in the speakers make the sound stage better, time aligning each driver (there are eight, from subs to tweets with a driver producing each applicable frequency range) but there are some spikes and notches that are VERY hard to deal with, even with 9 parametrics and a 2/3 graphic available. And first to sixth BW or LW xover bandpass (hi/lo) filters on each driver, and on and on and on. So many buttons, so many channels, so little time. :-) Now if I could figure out what I really want for a target curve, raising the bass and attenuating the high end is obvious, but I mean the specifics for my ear. One thing I did learn quickly is that a white noise or swept sign (they are very different?) end to end flat frequency response sounds like hell warmed over. I can't imagine ANYONE wanting to listen to that. I also learned that very careful gain and crossover choices are critical to getting anywhere near a decent end point.
I tried sweeping the frequency very slowly (by hand actually) and tuning the system to what I though sounded constant loudness, but trying to compare loudness by ear of a 20hz and 10kHz wave is just a shot in the dark, at best. So I concentrated more on trying to keep obvious large peaks and valleys damped down as much as possible. It sounded OK, but not spectacular, so I'm thinking maybe trying to take the essence of that curve, whatever the hell that is, as it's mostly a damned mess, and smooth it out with the REW to something that at least approximates a continuous curve, then iterating a couple of times might help. I know this, it will sound great, OK, or like crap. There don't seem to be as many shades of gray here as I thought there would be.
When you get down to it, a cookbook might get you started, or even keep you from going tangent directly into the weed, but it's mostly by gosh and by golly, and blood, sweat, and a lot of tears to get to something I can at least stand in the car. Actually for a car it sounds quite good, but unfortunately it's still a damned car. Maybe next I'll try curtains over the windows? Eh, probably a step too far, and a bad idea all around. :-/ That was a joke.
Also, while your sweep looks better in the low registers, it actually looks worse in the mids, with excursions FAR wider than what you had previously. That tells me frequency response is only one part of the equation. Obviously the largest part of the improvement there falls out of that waterfall graph (sorry). And the improvement here was MASSIVE. It actually seems to me, as an engineer (electrical, not audio) that what should really be measured for 'flattening' is the time domain, not the frequency domain. IIRC getting the time domain right the frequency domain should naturally fall right into step. It's been a while though, so that might be crap.
Great video 😊
Roomtreatment is the most underrated audiotreatment out there I think.
It does not have to be expencive either.
I have 5 kids, 3 cats, 1 dog, 1 micropig, and an expencive wife 🤣🤣🤣, so there is not much left for my crazyness (audio and cars).
I have used eggcartons, in layers of 4, wirh slight air inbetween, and thick curtains all around the room. It is such a huge difference, no echo, no reflections, just amazing. Great for music, and even better for homecinema when direction of sound is important. The only drawback (if one could call it that), with having a "dead" room, is that one needs a bit more wattage to get the same soundpreasurelevel. But, to me, more power, is always better 🤪
Thanks so much for that comment! Acoustics is indeed very overlooked and underrated. We make our products very competitive and professionally, with aesthetics in mind to accommodate even the most discerning clients.
Regarding your room, I would absolutely love to see a Room EQ sweep of your room with your current DIY treatment strategy to see where you can improve the sound within the space (even with a small budget).
While it sounds like you're doing a lot of over-absorption in the high frequencies, your bass build-up is likely going to be an issue, as there is virtually no bass trapping in your acoustics strategy. You'd be amazed with the difference bass trapping can make overall.
Feel free to reach out to us for FREE acoustic advice sometime if you ever feel like leveling up your home cinema. gikacoustics.com/acoustic-advice/
@@GIKAcousticsLLC
The room should feel overdamped/ dead, I know. But it really does not. I am sure there are lots of things I can fo to improve it, but my next step is to soundproof the room as best as I can, build new walls inside the room, and also outside (room is to of my garage). My neighbour, 70ish meters away, is not very happy with my subs 🤪
When I am done with building a room inside the room (some time in the future), I will do things more proper I think 😊
When it comes to bass buildup, I do not think it is a problem. But I like a lot of bass, as long as it is tight and precise, which it is. I do not have any new fancy or expencive gear either. Totals around 10 000 dollars for reciever, amp, speakers, projector etc. But I've spent about 6 months finetuning everything, and now I find it to sound so good that I've started to listen to classical music to enjoy the dynamics and details 🙊🙊🙊
I will take a look at what you guys have, and plan what to do after the room build 😊
Totally understand and agree about the way you would go about soundproofing it. Sounds great, in the meantime, I still would be very interested to see an EQ sweep with your current DIY treatments. I'm extremely curious to know your secret to fine-tuning your room to the degree you like with only using simple treatments such as layers of egg crates on the walls with less than 1inch thick blackout curtains. I think the world might benefit to know that too. Sometimes we find setups can greatly benefit from the correct speaker positioning and setup of the subs as a solid foundation to start with. Thanks again.
@@GIKAcousticsLLC
I will try and get some sweeps 😊
REW and measurement is totally new to me, so it might take some time to get it right 🤪
And how do I post them to you?
No problem. We actually have a handy setup video for REW - it might help you out quite a bit. ruclips.net/video/e4uSR3cUUSY/видео.html
Send them to chris.c@gikacoustics.com when you get a good sweep!
it still has low frequency problems with the treatment in the room..
the guitar sounded LIGHT YEARS better in the treated room. need to get my home setup treated!
At low frequencies, I found digital room correction and multi-subs were a more practical (takes up much less space and a sub is easier to move around and place) than room treatment. Most folks have difficulty at low frequencies and the reality is the treatment that works at low frequencies is too thick and expensive to be reasonable.
Room treatment should be considered after collecting measurements and determining other methods won't suffice. It can address a lot of issues but it's pretty ineffective at low frequencies.
You are right when it comes to needing measurements to address a lot of issues, but couldn't be farther from the truth on bass trapping.
Our very own James Lindenschmidt wrote about this in-depth in an article for Recording Magazine in 2019, in a 3-part series.
Here is his room with multiple subs and DSP without bass trapping: prnt.sc/10pb3za
Here is the exact same setup using multiple subs and DSP with bass trapping: prnt.sc/10pb4fn
As you can see, while adding multiple subs and DSP are both useful and the best rooms utilize both, neither are a substitute for bass trapping.
@@GIKAcousticsLLC How large were the bass traps?
Hi
Thanks for the video.
Can you indicate how many panels you have put up and what models?
Written with translator.
Greetings
Please reach out to us via our advice form for a personalized strategy for your space. Gikacoustics.com/acoustic-advice-form/
I dont know what your setup is.. but its a common issue. if that isnt it put it back and go around the room one speaker at a time...on of them is outta phase. either in the box or at the terminal.. I would have to know what we are dealing with. you can find it ....
Did you use the frequency range limiter(flexrange) for this example on the monsters? My room is extra reverby around 90-140. im wondering if i should get the frt and/or scatterplate. thanks so much
Thanks for the question - I don't believe we used Range Limiters on these, but if you're wondering about the Range Limiter v Scatter Plate, we would suggest you send your unique room dimensions to our designers at gikacoustics.com/acoustic-advice/
GIK Acoustics thanks so much, i sent my consultation request yesterday!
Hi there! I and a friend of mine have been in charge of sound for an auditorium for about 3 years now and have been having issues with how to go about tuning. The dimensions of the place are 40ft x 35ft x 40ft. We have dead sound and we have an issue of feedback and tuning proves to be difficult because of the way the second floor influences the acoustics. Is there anything software you can recommend we can use or something without having to consult an acoustics engineer? I’d love to get in contact if possible!
Yes, absolutely, we give 100% free acoustic advice! Please visit gikacoustics.com/acoustic-advice/ and we'll have someone reach out to you about this space with their recommendations based on your dimensions and everything else you'll answer on our form. Thank you
@@GIKAcousticsLLC thank you!
Curiously, If u recorded in a untreated room but played it back in a treated room are you still going to pick up issues from the recording in the untreated room ? I’m just curious how sound engineers deal with troubleshooting artists/podcasters that maybe don’t have the right surroundings and how u go about identifying the difference between sound coming from room ur doing the playback from and troublesome sound from the mix itself? considering the playback is going to sound different in a treated room
If it was recorded in a poorly treated room, it’ll sound like that in a well treated room. There are digital processors that can remove echo and reverb from sources but they’re damaging to audio.
@@TweezerBleezer123 ok. So would the same be true if u recorded in a treated room but played it back in an untreated room
@@jasonjellie9342 it depends really. But microphones capture what is in front of them. If you recorded in a room with poor acoustics- that’s what it will sound like anywhere it’s listened to.
@@TweezerBleezer123 I was merely curious
👍
Is there no door in that room?
you didn’t control reverberation time of the low frequency (bass)
we must achieve at least 0.25 second of it not half second or more
Does anyone remember what a sharp deep null is called I forgot. It’s usually caused by something in the room
Are you thinking of a room node? Or perhaps comb filtering?
Two questions. Why don't the speakers have panels directly behind them and also why are they pointing outward instead of inward. I'm genuinely curious as I don't know if that is a better way to have them or not.
ruclips.net/video/T10_MLGOBfc/видео.html
We just posted a video that talks about treatment behind speakers.
In this demonstration I didn't experiment with toeing in the speakers though it likely would have been an improvement.
@@GIKAcousticsLLC Yes I watched it. Perfect timing. Thank you.
Because speaker panels directly behind the speakers will make the least difference from any other wall. Plus when you stop many of the reflections from the other walls you will have less sound coming back to the front wall.
May I know the software using for measuring sound variation in this video ?
Room EQ Wizard or "REW"
We have created a popular video that details how exactly to use it and set it up for measuring your space. ruclips.net/video/e4uSR3cUUSY/видео.html
Once you have made some measurements, feel free to reach out to us for expert advice on setting up your room from our website at:
gikacoustics.com/acoustic-advice-form/
You are calling this a drastic improvement. Looks like this is true in the upper and the mid frequencys. But what about the very low frequency where you need it the most? It looks to me like it doesn't do anything in the area below 80 HZ. It almost looks worse with the treatment. Ant that's without a subwoofer where most people run into trouble with boomy bass.
Whats the black fabric used to cover the acoustic panels?
We use acoustically transparent fabric. In this case, it is 100% Spun Polyester Poplin, but there are many choices out there. Here's some of the fabrics and color choices we offer on our panels and for sale by the yard:
www.gikacoustics.com/colors-available-acoustic-panel-bass-trap/
You can grab samples here if you are in the US: www.gikacoustics.com/product/fabric-and-finishes-samples/
@@GIKAcousticsLLC Cool, thx!
Only about 4-5 grand worth of treatment there!
I have a 20db drop at 50hz right at my listening position. 2 subs, doesn't even matter where they're placed. I've tried everything. Going to start with one soffit in each of my "problem corners", then treat early reflections, then back wall, then either front wall or more soffits. My listening position is about the only spot with a complete suckout from about 45-60hz(varies a little depending on speaker crossover level)
I ran the numbers on this and it's closer to 3k of treatment in this video and a good chunk of that cost is because of the large art panels. This treatment strategy is far from the most cost effective approach and is more based on what we had readily available at the time.
It's seems like you're having model issues, but we'd need to know more about your room to help you out.
If you haven't already I'd recommend filling out our free advice forum and one of our dedicated designers should be able to help you out: www.gikacoustics.com/acoustic-advice/
Move away further from your speakers , make a bigger triangle . or place speakers in the corner , like diagonally so that when you sit and listen you are looking in one of the corners .
@@dedskin1 I've had the speakers from 54" apart to 72" and now they're in the corners. I've tried all straight and toed in. I like this configuration the best. Out in the corners and toed in.
When I run a sweep without the front right speaker, it disappears. Front left, front left+2 subs. Those test results won't show a dip.
The front right is toed in..and I have some blinds to the left of it. The blinds are a vinyl material and they are always completely shut because there is glass behind them. A big sliding door.
I'm not sure how relevant any of this is.
I know I can move back and make it better, but its a small room, and I'm only about 36" from the back of the couch to the back wall, with my surround backs taking up some of that room as well.
What do you think?
Something like curtains, or soffit bass traps, or am I just chasing ghosts with that stuff?
@@Cblan1224 m8 when you say in teh corner , i hope that is not exactly in the corner . Ive never heard good sound like that ,Mine are set like standard . Like you would generally see . im in the middle of the room for near field , and towards the back wall for general listening watching movies .
I get best bass response speakers set about 1/3 of the room from the front wall , and me setting about 1/3 of the back wall .
Or there about .
But there is always some node , something to spoil the fun for my room is is a Cube , the worst kind .
No way to get that bass decent , you can only make it as good as it can be .
Bass Traps are mandatory , but even after you will have more then one node , i have 3-4 . Big ones .
So its not worth spending 3000$ on, but i didnt , i made it all DIY.
How hard is it to make a panel to cover the corner , you can put a PVC pipe in it will work just the same or close to commercial products but you tape it with some absorbent material for it not to ring .
Car Sound shops have this rubber sheets that you glue on the car doors to stop the ringing , that material is perfect and cheap to stop things from ringing .
IVe made my own absorbent panels , all in all 300$ and that is worth it , cant live without it , you can do the same .
Many tutorials online .
But even after , forget not having nodes , its impossible youll ahve them , probably even more of them , but less loud , like you defused it .
So remember , do not buy Cube speakers , for they have same issues your room has , or mine .Get Egg shaped speakers , round shit , that is the best shit , all else being equal .
@@dedskin1 not exactly I'm the corner, no. It is out from the wall a few feet. Really small room.
If I had to do it again I would be DIYing my mains. I like a design from gr research. The x static 3 way with 2 woofers open baffle and 2 sealed. But those would have to be even further out into the room. I can't wait to move in a few months and convert a bedroom. I'll be knocking out one wall and rebuilding it for a bit more space, so I'll get into research on what my best options are for that.
I will try to maximize my current situation in the meantime. I am aware of many things that you said. Its just always between a bad decision and a worse one with this room. I.will take your advice and reposition the speakers a bit, along with moving the seat back about as much as I can get away with. A couple feet forward or back and the null is gone. I have 2 subs and I thought placement could solve these issues, but I've tried just about everything.
Do you guys sponsor or support artists by any chance? I’m going to build my professional studio by the end of the year and would be interested in working with you
Simply said, a "treated" room has a more "intimate" sound!!!
Once I fill up a room with my junk collection, it has about the same effect.
Very helpful illustration. Is it me, or is the treated examples just a bit too deadened? Still, you made your point about the efficacy of treatment.
In my opinion, It depends on the rooms purpose. If it's a control room where you're mixing and mastering then absolutely no. The treated version gives you a much more accurate stereo image and makes it easier to hear details, like tails of reverbs, attack and release settings of compressors, and overall better articulation. You could also add some ambience back with reverb plugins or diffusion panels to bring back some room ambience, but better balanced than if you remove panels.
@@Espresso101 well said.
My hifi rig has to fight for it’s right to be in our 18 by 21 feet family lounge. The room has absolutely no acoustic treatment, other than a plush rug placed between and in front of the speakers. Over many years in a process of trial and error, I’ve changed out various components appreciating the difference they make.
I recently replaced my sofas. Got rid of our old leather 2 and 3 seater sofas for a fabric 2 and 3 seater. They are slightly smaller, and about half the weight of the old suite, but, much more firm.
I was shocked, they killed the room. Dulled the ambiance. Yes, if I ramp up the volume, I can get some of that ambience back. Do I like the new soundd signature the room creates? No, but I will grow to like it, as the new suite is here for the long term.
My point. Room treatment can definitely change room acoustics, can it improve then? Well, that is down to personal taste!
dont understand why the mains are that close to the back wall.. and the listening position should be at either 1/3 or 2/3 length of the room.. the guy with a suckout issue. its from the reflected wave cancelling the direct wave at that freq..due to time .
Lot of studio monitor manufacturers recommend placing the speakers as close to the front wall as possible. Then you can push the front wall SBIR null higher up in freq (~200-400Hz) so it's not affecting critical bass freq (i. e. 80-100Hz) and also can be absorbed.
I understand. and as an older listener thats in the audio field I quickly can pick out modern sources compared to those made in the 70s and 80s..I have flat speakers with excellent dispersion pattern . I tend to agree with room treatment.but audiofiles dont put their accurate speakers against the back wall. and Ive yet to underztand how modern monitors that beam sound can be used to make audio decisions that people with honest speakers can listen to. yes i agree that it lets you dissect the balance in the mid bass region..but the lack of decay causes my system that uses matrix to not create the diff channel.
@@davidstevens7809 I think audiophiles tend to place speakers further away since they don't often use DSP/room correction and placing speakers near-wall results in boundary gain (bass boom). Studio monitors usually have dip switches or presets to counter this. I guess the distance from the front wall can also help the illusion of soundstage depth (at least visually).
ahha. theres a problem with dsp thats not discussed. what about the timing of reflected sound after its altered? the direct sound is correct but the reflected sound is now incorrect..thats why modern teaching is to stop the reflection.. and also on another topic why surround sound doesnt work. and why the original ... matrix derived from 2 channel source always worked. again i agree with some room correction.. but never understood how anything altered from flat and full dispersion recording is the proper solution..yes for the masses. it makes midfi sound better. but..it erases the info that old school guys concider part of the live experience..
@@davidstevens7809 Oh, to be clear I didn't say anything about DSP having a problem. I meant that you can be more flexible with positioning speakers since you can fine tune the bass response.
Not sure what you meant re reflections. If you make an EQ adjustment, the reflected sound has the same 'corrected' response. But yeah, time-wise it's best to have the early reflections arrive as soon as possible (speaker very close to the wall) or so that the reflected sound arrives 5+ ms later. That translates to approx. 86cm (or more) away from the wall behind speakers.
I think a recording contains the ambiance/spatial information you want to preserve. DRC is a way to lessen the effect our room is adding 'on top' of the recording.
I don't recommend using EQ way beyond the Schroeder frequency since studies actually show we can hear 'through' the room above ~1kHz. But cutting those modal peaks etc. in the bass region definitely makes a big improvement IME. Also, just want to add that properly integrated subs are the best way to smooth out bass response.
I get the audiophile point of view. Different approaches, I guess it depends whether we prioritize good sound or accurate sound. Studio work needs the accurate approach but otherwise it's all subjective.
i think somethings wrong with me, i kinda liken the echo....lol
Dude you cannot put a big flat screen between the speakers and the microphone. You are blocking the direct line of sight sound waves to the microphone and getting reverb.
Speakers are too close to the walls.
sounds great in my untreated room fml
we agree more than disagree. I would like to discuss more. I cant explain. yes I build and repair amps and speakers
The presenters haircut was a bit distracting, lol
what's the point of the annoying background music in the video?
Something to tap your foot to.
I'll try to avoid this track next time. ;-)
great just need 5k to do it with !!
Go to work
Next episode: untreated vs treated haircut
Would never put my speakers that close to the wall!
Although it seems counter-intuitive, this setup has to do with optimizing the most appropriate physics to combat SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interference Response). You'll want to eliminate the distance between the front of the speaker and the hard surfaces that allow reverberation behind the speakers as a first reflection - which is especially effecting the low-end.
Here's an article on the subject that hopefully gives you a better idea of why our speakers are close to the front wall:
www.gikacoustics.com/speaker-boundary-interference-response-sbir/
Positioning the Listening Spot:
gikacoustics.com/wp/positioning-listening-spot/
I agree, Michael
! Another common problem can be a hifi rack, big screen TV and all furniture between speakers. IRL I have to compromise, TV is mounted a lot higher and there is a 45 cm high rack/bookshelf with an amp/AVR on top. However, I have a pair of passive Spirit Absolute 2 near field studio monitors, manufacturer recommends installing on the wall. I ended at placing them further, 50 cm distance on front panel.
I would never move my speakers more than 6 inches from the front wall. 99 percent of people have no idea about phase issues their speakers have that are multiple feet out in a room and always crave a sub or wonder why their floor standers have weak or weird sounding bass. They just go with what some stupid audio magazine told them or follow some old wives tales. Check out some of the old klipsch speakers like cornerhorns or cornwalls that are required to be right up against walls or corner loaded to have correct sounding bass. PWK was an audio genius. He also said the best speaker wire is lamp cord. Yet you pull your speakers out 3 feet from the front wall and buy multi thousand dollar speaker wire. There is sooo much bs in audio its astounding. Bring your speakers close to the front wall and try to match the reflected wave with the speaker wave to have nice in phase bass and you wont care about the peaks and nulls because you will never notice them.
@@sergeysmelnik You're right about lamp cord, 2x0,75mm2 is fine up to 10 m. I bought 2x2,5mm2 Oelbach cable 32 years ago and has never considered to change them. Banana plugs would be handy update but I don't buy a new amp often. I never use subwoofer with music sources and never Main+LFE setting on AVR. 6½" passive studio monitors are fine with RUclips, DVD and TV. -3 dB @45 Hz. For more bass just turn volume up. -Old ladies prefer speakers close to walls and corners, I get it, it looks neat and makes placing furniture easier.
@@pekkatervala8476 Im sorry your old lady forces you to have little speakers hidden in a room somewhere luckily I can have whatever I want.
Yes treating a room will make the sound much better! But honestly who is going to put that much acoustic treatment this in their family room ah ah!!
Completely understandable. We've created our Room Acoustic Visualizer to help you plan out aesthetics in mind with our panels in your own 3D space - especially with our beautiful Impression Series panels and designs. Many people can see a benefit with only a few panels in strategic locations in a family room setting. Especially when combatting echo and ambience. As for the lower frequencies, Soffit and Tri-Traps can be easily disguised in corners. If you would like to get advice on your space, no matter the goal, we give free advice at www.gikacoustics.com/acoustic-advice-form/
cool
The difference is pretty redicolous.
The treated room sounds muffled to me. Both samples sound horrible.
You have to understand this is only a recording of the room and not what you may totally hear sitting in the room. The point is the frequencies that are much clearer. Thanks for your comment though.
Yes this room now sounds completely dead to me. Just as bad as the previous example but in the other way. GIK, wasn't what you did overkill? Shouldn't there be more diffusers in that room rather than absorbers?
p.s. just watched your REW get started video, it was excellent, thank you.
I agree. Completely dead. My listening rooms is 12x14x9. With 2 bass traps and 4 wall panels the room sound very good compared to without. I would like to get two more bass traps at ceiling level.
First off you moved the right speaker during the install of the panels. Even a sixteenth of an inch will change the way the graph looks unless only the left speaker got tested which didnt move. Second at 1:33 the blue graph which was done after the panels is done at a lower volume. You can see how its lower all the way up to 3khz. Bass traps wouldnt affect 3khz. Why isnt the rest of the graph shown? Because past 3khz and up to 20khz the blue graph will be consistently lower showing its done at a lower volume. If the volume levels were matched you will see the bass traps did nothing for those 3 highest peaks, made the 35hz peak worse and possibly helped the 120hz null.
What made the biggest difference was removing much of the echo and taming the top end due to the soft panels everywhere.. However paying 3k for something that could have been bought on amazon for 300 seems like a waste of money.
Yes the speaker was nudged during install, but it was placed back in the same location. You're right it's important speakers stay in the same spot, but 1/16" will not produce the different curves you see in the video. The difference is clearly a result of the treatments. Before and after tests were done at the same volume, which shows both response curves improving and, more importantly, the decay times as shown in the spectrograms are much shorter and more consistent. Only treatments can have these effects across the board with decay time. The entire frequency spectrum is shown in the spectrogram at 2:04, in which you can clearly see the smoother, more consistent decay times across the board, as well as more energy in the treble range you mentioned than the untreated test. The spectrogram also shows improvement under 100Hz. I'd love to see some test data showing improvement like this in the decay times of the room (this is far more important to show what the room actually sounds like than a simple response curve) for anything that costs $300.
Unthreated sounds more like from bathroom
No amount of treatment will save that guitar playing.
Naughty Naughty! Lolol.
I understand that there are constraints to what the average viewer can do, but good acoustics always begins with floor and ceiling. This room you present cannot be optimized, as long as there's a bare, reflective ceiling and hard, hard bare floors. The resultant reflections, being a major portion of the room area, will overcome any amount of hangings, panels and other add-on treatments. An acoustic ceiling and thick carpeting with padding are the first basics. After that, heavy drapes over any large glass windows or doors. Eliminate flat vertical surfaces like desks, cabinets or other objects. I guarantee that if I were to clap my hands, even after you have applied all of your 'remedies', there would still be a fatal echo in that room. Acoustics engineering for commercial theater assume lots of clothed human bodies, which act as reflection absorbers at the critical level of the audience's ears. That and upholstered seating combine to provide a fairly decent listening environment. A home or office which has an untreated ceiling, hard flooring and the usual complement of desks, cabinets and window areas is the worst of all situations. Popcorn ceilings made with gypsum and asbestos were made illegal, rightfully so, but textured ceilings without asbestos is the best remedy for echoic spaces. Unfortunately for the audiophile, decor fads have swung to hardwood floors as being popular. People with allergies have been told to get rid of carpets and rugs. Some of you will have to make a choice, as to whether you wish good sound or fewer sneezes. Maybe that's why headphone makers are enjoying record sales. With my wall-to-wall carpeting, I keeps allergens and odors away but periodic application of carpet treatment containing sodium bicarbonate. I still have a textured ceiling but without asbestos. I get sound like a live concert performance now, starting with a top pro speaker set (vintage Altec). Thanks for your input!
Robert, while the floor and the ceiling are important, as are all surfaces of a room, it's foolhardy to say that's "where treatment begins". Most high end rooms don't have actual acoustic treatment on the floor as it's just not practical. In a well-treated room the difference between hardwood and carpet will be negligible, it's not like when you carpet an empty room where the bit of high frequency absorption (compared to actual acoustic treatments) can deaden the treble noticeably. But carpet gives such a small amount of absorption over a narrow range compared to a roomful of broadband treatments the difference is quite negligible in that context.
The claim that floor/ceiling treatments being untreated "overcome any amount of hangings, panels and other add-on treatments" is false. Good rooms have a variety of treatments in many locations, overall results are as much about total coverage area of treatments spread around the room than anything else.
I'm sure if you clapped in a room with simply drapes or thick carpeting masquerading as actual acoustic treatments, then yes you are likely to hear a crazy echo as you put it.
I note you didn't mention bass trapping or diffusion, rather on performance of high frequency absorption. To be blunt, the best rooms have the right balance of all three treatment modalities.
I'm glad you're happy with the sound you are getting - and you might consider testing the room with something like Room EQ Wizard that shows time-domain based data (waterfall graphs, impulse response, etc) to help put subjective listening impressions into a more objective context. I've attached our walkthrough in case:
ruclips.net/video/e4uSR3cUUSY/видео.html
I will say that the room in the video is a music studio type room so has specific requirements. Whereas if it was a commercial cinema or a dedicated consumer cinema room you would definitely use a carpet.
To dampen the many floor bounces from usually at least 5, 7, 9 or more speakers. With that amount of speakers including Atmos ceiling speakers firing downwards you certainly need a carpet. That's why all commercial cinemas use carpets instead of hardwood/laminate flooring.
As for thick curtains I agree they do rob too much high frequencys. It's better to have roller blinds over windows, which will have similar properties to bare walls. But if you have curtains over blinds you can always slide the curtains to the far corners. Out of the way of any first, secondary reflections from the speakers tweeters.
I'm currently installing 11 acoustic panels a mixture of both absorption and diffusion. The 4 panels I've installed so far has made a improvement in the sound quality from my dual purpose 5.1 cinema/music room.
Unfortunatelly the amplitude from about 200hz to 1000hz got even worse than before the treatments
Anyone who watches Dennis' videos here? Can you guys take this channel seriously? Dennis actually doesn't talk shit that recommends 'basstraps' and he knows you should never place your speakers right up against the wall. This is NOT good bass management. Good luck treating 30hz energy with those corner that are just foam with some wood in front... Foam doesn't treat low frequencies.
@Jens Hendriks, First off let me say that yes, foam doesn't treat low frequencies. I'm not exactly sure where these accusations are coming from, considering we have for a very long time recommended not use foam to treat low frequencies (even if using it in corners). You must be thinking of one of our competitors, surely, as there are some competitors that can't compare with our products. As you can see in this video, our results speak for themselves: we have shown the difference between a treated and untreated room here, using our acoustic panels that do not use foam as the acoustical absorption. I think perhaps you may want to check out our company a little more to ensure what you're saying is accurate, otherwise please point me in the place in the video where we claim that simple foam is effective absorbing low frequencies.
Actually most speakers should be right up to the front wall. Only a few inches away. Prove to me that moving them feet away from the front wall is better than having them right up to the wall. All your doing is getting rid of your bass and introducing terrible phase issues. So yes you will help the 30hz energy because you will have no bass energy at all.
@@sergeysmelnik agree, either very close to the wall, or far away ( but I’m then talking 2 meters or more away from the wall, which is not feasible for most -small-rooms).
But can the scrubs that will buy millions of my albums tell the difference?!! I think not! Muahahahahaha!
*buys hundreds of dollars in treatment*