A reminder that my Discord has a 100% free "Looking For Game" section, with games of everything from Commander to Modern (and even Pauper) firing off. So if you want to get some webcam Magic, just check out discord.gg/tolariancommunitycollege
Rewatching this after the RC has been disbanded. He was so insightful about so many aspects of the game and what the RC needed to be. Such a tragedy the community failed to keep the format separate from corporate control. Especially hard when listening to how much the legacy of commander meant to him.
@@Zookmottin multibillion dollar corporation pay their board of directors a lot of money to be present. I don't think we want to link the rules committee with that kind of financial incentives so the comparison is kinda dead in the water.
@@Zookmottin A board of directors is a majority rules operation, not one running on consensus. So the comparison is invalid. As for why they don't want to run a purely democratic system, I don't know, but that's where it's at.
@@soren1803 Anti-democratic, or simply preferring a slower, consensus-based decision making process? I mean, I have a hard time believing that he's some sort of elitist or supremacist, of any sort.
What a fantastic interview! I greatly appreciate that Prof was totally willing to kinda just gun it on important topics, rather than dance around the point (looking at you, Dockside!). At the same time, I feel like there was a great deal of respect between Prof and Sheldon, and even when Sheldon didn't give the most satisfying answer, Prof's comments on that were never harsh or clearly antagonistic. Like I said, fantastic interview
@@XCodes imagine unironically comparing dockside and dark ritual lmaoo. Also saying it wouldn't be a problem if other cards were banned is like saying paradox engine wouldn't be a problem if mana rocks/dorks didn't exist lol. Technically true, but maybe, just maybe, the one card is the game-breaking problem, not the 10s-100s of format staples that it benefits from.
It was a good interview, with the exception of the "diversity-question". Can't people just stop injecting their ill-informed political beliefs into things we enjoy?
I think the only thing keeping Dockside Extortionist from creeping into every single deck is the absurd cost of the card, and for that matter Wizards of the Coast not reprinting it enough.
While I agree, I do argue many players don't mind people proxying. Either if they don't own the cards, or own only 1 copy of the card between multiple decks
Yup, if you can afford to run dockside in every single deck with red splash, you should be. The card is so much more broken than primeval titan unless your running a land matters theme.
Commander brought me back to Magic...hadn't played in 16 years, Dominaria was coming out on my birthday so I stopped in my LGS...everyone was playing Commander, and I learned that all my old cards from 1994-2002 were actually useful in a format and got hooked! Thanks, Sheldon!
This is why we love the professor. He genuinely has the community's best interests at heart and asks the good questions and doesn't cater to the guest while simultaneously being respectful. Love it!
Can we please have more of these interviews? It was really amazing to see you two talk, I would really love to see more videos of you talking to the higher ups of magic the gathering.
Thank you for letting the rest of us get a peak and a small chance to be familiar with this magical being. I hope all the shuffle up and plays and this conversation get revisited so we can all appreciate what a gift Sheldon truly was to our gathering not as the father of edh but as an amazing person he truly had a gift to make you feel apart of something even through a screen. RIP legend
This was fantastic Prof. You are an absolutely slick interviewer. The right balance of respect and inquisitiveness, the exact right amount of edge. Love to see you interview others in the game.
With today’s announcement of the RC committee being taken over by wizards. It is truly a sad day for Sheldon’s vision of being independent, community driven format focus on the social nature first then game play second. Not beholden to shareholders and investors. His regret was that they weren’t more vocal in their bannings in the modern commander era. Their messaging was far from perfect but Jim and the RC committee acted in good faith of Sheldon’s vision and did not deserve the backlash they got. Although Sheldon is gone, his vision and ideas are not lost in my mind when I sit down at the table to play regardless of who’s controlling the RC. RIP Sheldon.
@@brandonharris9306 thank you. I’m hoping that everyone will do the same. Sometimes when things seem stressful or burdensome the best remedy is to remember why you started in the first place. For me, the art of magic, brewing and meeting new people is why I still engage with MtG.
Ikr, when hull was legal it was i think $11-19 while dockside is only now $50-70. So of course it started appearing everywhere! Could have the price ranges wrong but I definitely remember buying a hull and not thinking about it as much as a dockside.
Bingo. The logical fallacies betting used are sort out astounding. It's no wonder that transparency has been so sparse. You know Rachel Weeks chatted with dude about Sisay after she got shut down by shrines on I Hate Your Deck.
The fact that he thinks that line of reasoning would get more cards banned rather than unbanning unreasonable bans should disturb the community playing under him.
@@Zafocaine I can see both ways of thinking. There are a lot of cards that could be lifted from the banned list but there are also a lot of people who'd rather see a card like Dockside banned rather than see Prime Time unbanned.
@@DylanHunter64 as far as banning for power level, I think there are only a few cards that get talked about enough to possibly (and popularly) deserve a ban (Dockside, Thoracle, Ad Naus, Fierce Guardianship, perhaps a few more). About as many or maybe a few more than the number of cards that get talked about enough to warrant an unban (Prophet of Kruphix, Prime Time, Coalition Victory, Biorhythm). I don't think the banned list would immediately spike to 100+ cards as Sheldon suggests, but a progressive banned list like that, with a new ban-for-power mentality, would certainly grow much faster as Wizards continues to push commander design. Perhaps they keep it this way so they don't have to change things regularly.
@@UVAFoozle already got to disagree, play a game or 2 with Prime Time and/or Prophet of Kruphix. Those cards are very reasonable bans and will warp the format of many groups if unbanned.
@@Srynan Neither of those cards are nearly as good as dockside let alone as good as thoracle and ad nauseam. It's a joke to leave Prime Time banned especially.
It really is nice to see an interview where the interviewer and interviewee obviously have some differing views, but are perfectly respectful the entire time, even when going through some of the touchier questions. Kudos to you both!
What a grace to be a part of this community. I am so honored that you have managed to produce such an open, honest and heartfelt interview. Kudos to the Professor, to Sheldon and all of the people behind the scenes who have made this possible. Thanks for continuing to be reasonable, hard working and welcoming people.
That final question is such a hard question, with Sheldon being open about his current condition. It's hard not to think about that question in the context of Sheldons ongoing health issues. Kudos for Sheldon for answering and such, but man is that, contextually, a rough question to be asked
This was very interesting, Sheldon seems like a pretty good guy but I still think the rules committee is very behind with the format. I'm glad prof took him to task a bit for that. They have a lot of catching up to do.
Yeah, for all intents and purposes cEDH is the default format and casual commander is the variant. cEDH is a board game consisting of around 300 staple cards (plus commander specific extras), reverse engineered from the most consistent version of all the rules. Casual is somewhere between a failed attempt to utilize trade binders and cEDH. Format warping things are problems for casual when they invalidate thousands of cards, but they are advantageous for developing cornerstones of a competitive format.
@@atle853 if you think cedh is played more than non cedh you are full on delusional. Cedh is the aberration that goes against what the format is, ergo the problems. There is a fixed cedh format, its called highlander
@@DimT670 I think you completely misunderstood his comment. What he is saying is cEDH is the resulting format of such a small amount of rules and bans with an eternal card list, EDH is an aberration that shouldn't exist (not that we don't WANT it to exist, but it SHOULDN'T exist with this set of rules).
This is one of the best pieces of content I've seen in years, absolutely. Thanks prof for all your work, and thanks to Sheldon for the special gift he gave all of us with Commander! :)
@@RafaelPanazzo its one of the worst cards ever printed. There is no justification for it other than, "it'll be expensive on the secondary market". Next you're gonna say Ancestral Recall and Time Walk are perfectly fine and balanced cards.
The conversation about dockside is difficult to listen to. The situation he described is definitely not what is going on at my LGS. The only reason not everyone is running it is because not everyone is willing to spend 80 bucks on a card. If it was 20 like hullbreacher it'd be as ubiquitous as sol ring
Yeah I want to call bullshit on Sheldon here. There are tons of docksides running around at lower power tables at my LGS. It is in pretty much every deck that has red in it, and the only limiting factor is its absurd price. Very frustrating to see it acknowledge in this way by the format rule makers. I was really disappointed with the way the prof just changed the subject after because the answer was just not satisfactory.
Wow, you're a great interviewer. Continuous respect, and you provided pressure in a way that wasn't "calling him out" but gave him an opportunity to clarify what he was saying.
Given today's recent news, I think there can be no more poignant of an answer to the legacy Sheldon has built than the one he gave on 49:26. Thank you for everything, Sheldon Menery. Even though as you said, it's a bit sad that you will no longer be doing the work, the whole MTG community will keep your memory and legacy alive from here.
Everything Sheldon was saying about Primeval Titan applies to Dockside. As soon as it hits the battlefield it becomes a race to copy, reanimate, etc. it. It's had less reprints and is significantly more expensive than Prime Time and that's the only reason it's not showing up more.
When i was in their discord, some people on the RC told me that they feel thassa's oracle is as hard as interact with as recurring nightmare, as problematic as that one too, yet they don't want to ban it because they use rule zero as an excuse for everything. the RC is a joke
You're comparing apples to hershey bars when you compare Dockside in this era of edh to Prime Time back when it was legal and subsequently banned. You had to be playing around that era to really understand how broken Prime Time was at that time of MTG where it was a literal arms race to who could abuse it in whichever way possible. Dockside is nowhere close to the level of busted that PT was a decade ago by virtue of where the landscape of the rest of the format sits today.
The problem with prime titan was utility lands. Treasure tokens almost universally just tap for mana, primeval could get valakut, field of the dead, a cradle, strip mine, etc.
@@8nykspree Dockside is much, much more impactful card than Primetime ever was. Commander a format where cards like Mox Diamond, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Carpet of Flowers are stables, so Dockside is just an explosion of mana. It regularly makes 8 mana on etb, in a format where 5 mana pays for Ad Nauseam.
Especially since Painbow is such a badass! I need that win con in there! I'll live with Teferi's Protection and Worldfire but Coalition Victory would be so much more on par with Painbow!
It never ceases to amaze me that Coalition Victory is verboten while Liliana's Contract and other stuff is totally fine. I get the 'wait until your upkeep' is a gargantuan ask in a powerful meta, but it's so much easier to pull of Contract's condition, and it's not a dead card when you draw into it like Victory is. Also Victory uses a ton of mana, so it's really hard to hold up counter magic. I haven't decided if I'd run it in Reaper King, but it's a solid-ish spell in that deck in particular, but again, with so many changelings and Maskwood Nexus, Contract is still so much better.
@@mightyone3737 having to wait an entire turn rotation makes all the difference in the world, especially when the condition required is the easiest to remove card type. Coalition Victory has to be answered while on the stack or the game ends then and there. and it's conditions are laughably easy nowadays and can be met with three cards most of the time, one of which is in the Command zone and at least one of which is a land. also, never mind the fact that five-color decks are already getting too strong and generally tend to be goodstuff piles, they do not need an instant win card on top of everything else.
You do realize that Commander isn't a DCI sanctioned format nor is it controlled by or ran by WoTc a subsidiary of Hasbro. So technically speaking Commander has no actual banned list right? Sheldon and his cohorts literally have zero power or authority for that matter to anything remotely close to "Banning" literally anything.
@@mightyone3737 The problem is that it's a relic from a time when full WUBRG was a novelty as decks go, and basic land "types" didn't exist, just basic lands. Two triomes and an actual WUBRG commander win you the game the same turn, when other wincons either resolve on upkeep or lose you the game if someone has a counter. Coalition Victory would actually be completely fine in Reaper King imo, as you'd have to actually have more than one creature. I'd be fine with Rule 0ing it into that deck.
Yeah, that's the one point where I think that's not really an acceptable answer to let slide. Whether Sheldon likes it or not, he is an influencer and disclosure of any financial ties is an important ethical issue, even if he is not legally compelled to do so.
Yeah, if the answer to that question was "no" he would've just said that and that would be it. But the fact that he feels a need to keep it confidential at all basically guarantees that the funds he has gotten from WOTC is larger than 0$.
@@EwMatias It's none of our business what you make for your time and its none of our business what Sheldon makes for his time. NOT paying Sheldon would be the classic "love for the game" excuse that hugely profitable corporations use to get free work from interns or other unpaid council/committees and its all a form of exploitation. If Sheldon's successfully secured compensation for both his time and the value he's brought to Hasbro, good for him.
I met Sheldon at Commandfest Orlando 2022 and let him know I was upset about the Golos banning. He was a good sport to my rather annoying criticism and later I even had him sign a Golos. Best event I've been to yet!
Three years ago I wanted to enter the world of Magic, but my girlfriend told me about the rotations, it stopped me right away. But recently I finally learned about the commander format, and today, I’m waiting impatiently for the arrival of my first deck (from a local game store no worries!), thank you so much for making this game accessible for casual players!
We’re really lucky as a community to have folks like the Professor and Sheldon as advocates for us. I can’t imagine where magic would be without them, and I’m so glad they’re both such firm believers in creating a more welcoming, accessible, and equitable community. Thanks to you both!
Sheldon’s responses here feel very carefully pre-crafted/studied. He seems extremely reticent to speak more candidly on things, and I get the impression that the RC (or just him) feel that they are above the public opinion/perception. He says he doesn’t WANT to say Commander is “theirs”, but my impression is he certainly feels that way.
That, combined with his admission of a "working relationship" with WotC, something we could only really speculate on before, proves to me that the RC and Sheldon himself are too wrapped up in their own bs to actually pay attention to the format on the ground level.
@@thatepicwizardguy yeah...that shit was concerning, especially since we already know that, while they don't acknowledge the secondary market, we know WotC has investments in said market. At this point, I'm treating the RC as WotC employees, so they cannot be trusted to make decisions healthy for the format.
@@tomprince8223 "its a good thing that WotC pays the people who are supposed to be separate from them as they are the ruling body of a fan created format" is a take I legit didn't expect.
Same. I bought a copy of her to build as my second EDH commander when she was around 4-5 bucks thinking she was busted. After finding out she would have to stay in the yard until I could recur her I scrapped that idea and she ended up in a bulk box. Fast forward a few years and she is now one of my favorite EDH decks to play!
imagine my mind as somebody who had built Elenda with intent to let her go to grave before that change. Didn't take recursion out, i just get to use it on other targets.
Chiming in from Denmark here - absolute fantastic interview! Never knew I actually cared about this stuff and knowledge. So great to get insights into all of this. G R E A T work, Professor. You are awesome!
Honestly I feel like wizards is weary whenever they okay a rep to do an interview with him. Because I would not okay some of these questions at all if I where them! 😂
I feel like the Rules committee are individuals that wotc have grown to connect with and trust their assets with for consultation. CAG has been developed to fill the missing connection those few people have with the wider community outside judge circles and pro tours. From the outside it looks like an apprentice step for those wanting to be on the Rules committee, as its a platform from which the individuals opinions and decision making structure are becoming more visable to Wotc, to be able to see if they can be trusted to have a partnership with in the future. Like Sheldon said, providing for a future rules committee.
The ban list isn't about restricting your local group. The ban list is about events and travel. If i play with friends consistently, we'll play whatever we want. But if you sit down with random people, you can have a pre-game conversation but you can, at minimum, expect legal decks.
Yeah, Sheldon doesn't seem to understand that Commander isn't anything like D&D. Commander is a card game that needs rules and restrictions not imgination and a, "philosophy" that he mentions every 10 seconds.
@Hono Shirayuki except, it's WAS once upon a time. And to a decent extent it still is because regular playgroups have their own house rules, gameshops can have their own house rules, etc. It wasn't meant to be an overly serious format, meant to be something to do while bsing with friends, something also in common with d&d.
@@direkitsune I see the point you are trying to make but I still wouldn't compare a competitive card game to D&D. The comparison just doesn't make any sense.
I loved this podcast but it’s left me feeling uneasy. I think prof brought up great questions and was given half answers. Would love to see more conversations like this.
Agreed, one of the first things that annoyed me is saying that the reason prime time is banned because it warps games around it. And that it’s been banned for so long that most players have not played with/against that. Formats change, decks change, cards that have been banned for a while should be re evaluated not just left on the banned list because at some point it was good.
@@moxcardboardtv8797 You also have to consider that many times, players do not understand the game well enough to know exactly what they want. Players will almost always optimize the fun out of a game if given the opportunity to easily do so. They have the clout to say they designed the format that is so popular, and you have to weigh any suggestions as a what if vs a certainty. That being said I think the one thing they need to do if they want a leg to stand on is obliterate rule zero from space and actually take hard stances on the rules of the format. Its not a format for a small group anymore. My personal asks? Ban the reserve list. I think a huge portion of the community would shit on them if they did that though, so whos right?
@@juts89 Just wanted to say I agree with your first paragraph. As someone who has founded a thing myself, people often don't understand the full implications of the suggestions they put forth. Being open to collaboration and input when you become popular is important, but wanting to maintain some control of the direction of the thing you came up with is understandable to me.
I hugely agree. To maybe add a little, I that proxy conversation just made me think "this man is in WOTC's pocket", and that made this whole "spirit of commander" discourse feel hollow.
Sheldon's a great guy. I met him at command fest Orlando earlier this year and when he came to our table, he spoke with us as if we were his friends. I really enjoyed the interview.
Eh, my experience is less positive. He made a post in a commander Facebook group linking to how MDFC work as the commander, and the link originally said “if either face of an MDFC is a legendary creature” and was at some point in under 24 hours changed to say “if the front face.” All he had to say when I had directly asked him about this was “it was changed after I posted the link” and then never replied when I asked why he couldn’t have just edited his post to say there was an error or correction. Because there were a lot of arguments between people who read it just now with people who read it when first shared and had literally no reason to go back and read it again.
@@Neg319 It was getting pretty heated in the comments. Yeah it was a small interaction, but it’s also not something I judge him as a person off of, even if it’s really stupid that he didn’t make the edit.
I played a game of EDH with Sheldon and called him out for not shuffling the top card of his deck. I don’t know if he did it intentionally or by mistake, but he wrote an article about it lol
As someone that generally disagrees with the RC, I find this interview quite an interesting listen. Sheldon is quite an interesting person to listen to talk about magic, very articulate. I have watched the discord a bit of late and find it something that is quite a good bridge of communication for the RC and general base (which I have mostly been critical of not existing). Still will disagree (in respectful manner) but nice to want to hear more of the RC instead of less. I would love to see an extended interview (Also love the Prof asking about Leovold and reaction to the “No” lol)
Sheldon seems fairly pragmatic, and I appreciate that. I think the RC has become more transparent over the past few years, but part of the point the Prof was making is that there's still gaps even with some of the CAG's input. a diverse range of voices in the CAG (budget vs big spenders, casual vs cEDH, Johnny/Jenny vs Spike vs Timmy/Tammy, new players vs rules lawyers) should provide enough useful input to accomplish the intended goal, but not all those players should have a final say on the commander format. as Sheldon points out, the useful takeaway from some piece of data is when it's filtered through someone like Shivam to see how Shivam's experience is impacted. also I want to say dockside has a low floor but a high ceiling. the issue is exacerbated by the prevalence of mana rocks.
I'm generally all for representation, but I really don't think we need more people in a rules committee that just say "yeah just rule 0 your playgroups lol". What I get from him talking about the philosophy of commander is that, at heart, it is a "casual" format, and that the banlist is just a guide for playgroups. I don't feel that there needs to be a huge governing body just for them to say "hey you probably shouldn't play golos but it's up to you guys anyways". Afaik, the commander advisory group is pretty well diverse too and they do speak with the rules committee enough, I'd hope
Prof you are not afraid to ask the hard questions or call out what players are thinking. I really appreciate your content and product reviews. This looked like a semi-tense interview and it was a great look behind the curtain so thank you for doing this.
I'm a baby Magic player (started mid-2023 right after March of the Machine Dropped) and if it weren't for Phyrexia - but more importantly the Commander format - existing, I wouldn't be playing. I'm still new to the Magic world but it's really nice to see the level of respect given to people like Sheldon. I love "interview Professor", you ask REALLY good questions that lead into interesting answers. Loved this interview. Bless you Sheldon!
Sheldon's passion for the game and his dedication to creating a fun and inclusive environment for players to enjoy Magic will be remembered and celebrated by many. His contributions to the Commander format have left a lasting impact on the Magic community, and his legacy will continue to influence the way players enjoy the game for generations to come.
I think its very odd to say that Hullbreacher filtered into all tiers of Commander play more than Dockside has, when Dockside is the third most played Red card. Hullbreacher was and is banworthy, but it wasn't beating out Rhystic Study for percentage of blue decks.
Third most played red card amongst people who are engaged and invested enough in commander to put their decks online. That's not the same as third most played red card in actuality.
And hullbreacher on turn 2-3 meant a potential wheel on turn and INSTANTLY win the game for that player. Rhystic can be played around and interacted with much better
I think the analysis also misses on economic conditions of the cards. Dockside was originally only printed in a precon while hullbreacher was a rare in a very opened set. Dockside is less accessible, and that affects it's adoption rate
@@vivianboor14 Then where are they getting information on how much it's being played if not from online aggregators of self-reporting? Commander isn't a sanctioned format where people submit decklists at the GP and tracking purchase data from 3rd party sources would be rife with speculative skewing.
May God Bless his Soul!!! 💖 I never knew Sheldon personally however, it Felt like, Every time I "Shuffled Up" to play... He was Right there with us, Every Mistake of the Way!!! The Commander format Helped me through some Misery and Pain... Nigh! Sheldon helped me through! If it were not for HE, Commander and a Close Friend... I Might Not be here right now... I wish his Family and Close Friends, Strength... For I have Yet to find mine! 💝 🍻
This was a great interview! It’s super interesting listening to this conversation and good for the prof for throwing a combination of soft and hard questions!
Sheldon doesn't want to say Commander is his, but Prof's question at 14:20 got him to say it. That's the main thing I got out of this interview because Sheldon's been carefully crafting his responses for years. Now onto speculation about why Hullbreacher was even allowed to live more than a month, why Dockside is _really_ still alive, and what "that's between me and them (Wizards)" is supposed to mean. :)
"that's between me and them (Wizards)" is supposed to mean. Most likely conclusion is Wizards saying "We're allowing you to be in charge of this, but you're going to have to do things our way or else we will take it over". "Tow the line and we will let you keep your figurehead status"
If you are a company presented with a unique situation like this (one guy determines the demand of your supply), of course you're gonna put him on the payroll, public or otherwise.
The Leovold question encapsulates my personal issues with the RC as an entity. In that, until they play it, they don't seem to see it as an issue, and from previous statements and articles, it seems like their personal play groups are fairly static. So if they don't see the problem cards they don't discuss them. Hopefully adding new blood as they have done lately will accelerate the problem cards being brought to the group.
yeah if you aren't playing with a plethora of players on the regular, or have access to data on the matter, then you are frankly not qualified to make very many decisions. a DAO would be the best way to handle this.
Loved hearing form Sheldon, loved that Prof didn't only ask easy questions either. Thank you Sheldon for creating such an amazing way to play an already amazing game
i feel like dockside is a worse offender because you can throw it into almost any deck and as long as the opponents plqy a certain way, it wrecks them every time. for primeval titan, you need to craft a deck around it a bit more because you need to recast it or copy it.
I wonder if the Rules Committee has thought of renaming the Ban List to something like "Suggested Unfun Cards". It removes the impression that "the format says you can't play that" and moves the idea of card exclusion to the rule 0 discussion
If that occured, why would we even need the RC? Rule 0 in it's purest form removes a need for the RC to even exist, that would make their existence irrelevant.
So in your eyes a, lets say, perpetually all white all male commander committee , one of the most important groups in magic, would mean nothing in particular and wouldn't be indicative of any deliberate exclusion and wouldn't signal to people magic is for some very specific ppl
@@gigawarman12 he is not wrong about how the games look like when titan is involved. but i still don't understand why dockside is not in the same place as titan.
I appreciate being willing to come on and chat with a large figure in the community such as the Professor. While I don't feel like too much was elaborated on I didn't already hear from just bouncing around the MTG creator space, what I did realize from subtle cues is that how I view commander is *NOT* how Sheldon views commander by a long stretch. He's very much got this "it's our baby" mentality about something that decidedly is no longer their baby.
It's entitlement, and nothing more. He thinks that a select few should be able to Gatekeep the format while still calling it a "community driven format" (a phrase which he said so quickly that it sounded like one word because he wanted to get all his rehearsed PR phrasing in). It's not community driven if Darth Menery is in the driver seat and the rest of the bus is filled to the gills with RC/ CAG members.
@@Zafocaine the most common thing that I've heard since WotC started designing directly for the format is that most people hate it. The draw to Commander for a lot of people before, was using cards that just didn't work in any other format, and finally having a place to play them. Now it's just a situation where you buy the latest sets, or at least singles from those sets, or your deck is unplayable.
@@Xoulrath_ I mean this is just blatantly false lol. Powercreep is a definite problem, but I pulled a slightly upgraded precon out after stopping playing from HoD-KamigawaND and literally won a pod the first week I was there, and ended up as archenemy in a pod with a slivers player the next week lol. Maybe you're just not very good at deckbuilding and rely too much on strong cards instead of powerful synergies?
Big respect for Sheldon. Keep up great work Sir. Best what happen to EDH is that rules are not in the hands of WoTc. It keeps the game fun and healthy as it is.
The only reason dockside isn't in every single red deck is just because it's so expensive so that's really a weak excuse for not banning it. He basically said 'it's only warping the format for players with more money'
To elaborate I don't think it should be banned, if it's played early it's just fair ramp in red and if it's played late camp it's no worse than any of the infinite combos people run. I think there's more of a case to bann freed from the reel. Just don't want my first comment to come off as some p.o'd dockside hater lol
@@zachryharp youre absolutely right. I'm actually in the camp of no ban list at all and just have players decide whats okay at their tables, but dockside is only not in every single red deck because its expensive.
he meant cedh which is free to play if you proxy, dockside isn't great at casual tables because it doesn't produce as much as early, also you don't combo out at casual tables
Prof you have such a weird, beautiful, ambivalent relationship with commander. It’s the most love/hate thing I’ve ever seen lol. Really good interview though, It would be really cool to see other members of the CAG on sometime to talk about the state of the format.
I feel like Rule Zero convos are "How are we gonna play tonight". I'm glad he said "There's a ton of format warping cards" clearly there's also an aspect of working with WotC. If they banned say Dockside a week before it was announced in Double Masters....whoops. I think it IS very appropriate to compare bans though.
The current setup of a smaller governing body and larger advising body is actually really clever. As he said, getting 6 people with equal voices to agree is hard enough, expanding that number (for whatever reason) would ultimately degrade its ability to set appropriate guidelines.
Yeah! Even better, What if we only had one führer? Then the disicions are made only by 1 person, there for eleminating the need for disscussion or governing?
Very interesting interview, straight to the point and no restraint. I would have liked to have Sheldon's take on Universes Beyond, but aside from that, it was very informative. Thanks Prof.
Loved the interview, but it really made me dislike Sheldon here... It's ABSOLUTELY important for people to know if wizards is paying the RC, they directly influence the secondary market A LOT
@@Caio22011 And then theirs also the “we haven’t expanded because it’s hard getting 6 people together” reasoning. And outside this interview, a bunch of really bad takes.
@@Caio22011 I definitely wasn't happy with Sheldon's response to this question. However, I do think there should be at least some nuance to the response to that. At a minimum, I hope Sheldon was paid for his work on the design of Commander 2021 and development of the Zendikar Rising Commander decks. Also, if the RC is reviewing every set (it was unclear to me from the interview if it was every set, or just commander targeted ones), I think it would be reasonable and unproblematic for Wizards to pay for their time doing that. I think any response other than "I have never received any money from Wizards" (which I hope is false) would have received a negative response, so I can understand his reluctance to discuss it.
@@tomprince8223 I get what you're saying, but I honestly think avoiding the question seems like the worst type of response he could have made Why should this be secretive if he is acting as a consultor? And again, his word carries A LOT of weight on the secondary market
I gotta agree with Sheldon on keeping the group small. A larger group could be more representative of the community, but you only have to look at the US Congress to see how ineffective a large decision-making body can be.
I nominate The Professor be on the RC. He really is here for love of the game! He has the player's interest at heart. Thank you Professor for the awesome interview! Thank you Sheldon for the game that is such a big part of our lives!
Why did he have to say he, and the rules committee, weren't against proxies in so many ways? Mr. Menery had great answers to Prof's hard questions. Wonderful interview between two men you can tell respect each other. The way the different groups and Wizards work together to put each other in check is a great relationship.
I imagine WOTC doesn't permit it, and he wants to play diplomatic. He also personally doesn't like proxies, so saying anything directly positive about it would go against his beliefs. And technically creating proxies could be seen as a copyright violation and therefor a crime, but there are ways to create proxies that doesn't do that so it's most likely the first two reasons.
I wonder how Sheldon feels about local gaming stores that make their own ban lists. And I'm speaking of the stores that have been seen on reddit for banning tutors, fast mana, "feels bad" cards like dockside, RL cards, all LD, etc.
The philosophy document talks about this: "We encourage groups to use the rules and the ban list as a *baseline* to optimize their own experience. This is not license for an individual to force their vision onto a play group, but encouragement for players to *discuss their goals* and how the rules might be adjusted to suit those goals."
Very interesting to hear his take on the ban list. I agree that a few bans do provide a structure for the format (power 9), yet some cards seem very randomly banned because they were considered "the worst offender" and they didnt like playing against it.
Just getting into commander.. now finding out the creator has passed and the RC he left behind is no more. This is sad. Wizards please do right by this man.
This interview was a great service to this community and was entirely needed 👏 excellent job Prof. I think this will benefit us all greatly in our opinions of the RC and their methodology.
It's great to see such rich content and definitely gives more depth to the format. Love to see important questions being asked and could be taken further with figureheads of the community rather than purely 'entertaining' content creators saying they simply don't like card x and y.
very nice set of questions. appreciate the answers. as for lower representation of dockside over titan... players work on limited budgets. titan was 10$ at the time of banning, dockside is 60$. it is normal to see lower representation of expensive cards. that is why sol ring is more represented than mana crypt.
As a casual player running ruric thar I don't even wanna play anymore because I don't wanna feel the need to spend 80 bucks on dockside. Nor do I like that fast mana is also.the casual playstyle nowdays
Great talk between two great minds! ❤ I love these long form discussion videos. Now that I know there’s a format philosophy channel, I may be active in the discord.
so sad to see someone with such low schooling to be failing a format and be a thorn in the side of proper banlists... wouldn't want such a cancerous friend....
![The Complete Story of Destiny! From origins to Shadowkeep [Timeline and Lore explained]](/img/1.gif)
A reminder that my Discord has a 100% free "Looking For Game" section, with games of everything from Commander to Modern (and even Pauper) firing off. So if you want to get some webcam Magic, just check out discord.gg/tolariancommunitycollege
I've seen this but the 100% free LFG section makes it sound like there aren't a plethora of chat channels to hang out in, also for free.
Do you guys do Tabletop Sim? 🥺
Subjective and differing formats wouldn't be a 'deviation' or an 'exception' if there wasn't a rule!
Only power level 7 right?
@@WingofTech TTS is way better than webcam magic. Casting Praetor's Grasp over webcam is a nightmare.
RIP Sheldon, thank you for your good work!
Rewatching, in honor of this great man. Rest in power, Sheldon.
Oh my God. It's starting.
The time when old magic players start to...
I watching cause I haven't before but because of that mans memory he did alot for MTG
Same
Rewatching this after the RC has been disbanded. He was so insightful about so many aspects of the game and what the RC needed to be. Such a tragedy the community failed to keep the format separate from corporate control. Especially hard when listening to how much the legacy of commander meant to him.
Rewatching tonight, after the recent bans, management changeover, and all the nastiness that was sparked.
"Hate has no place here." - Sheldon Menery
Rest in peace Sheldon Menery, thank you for doing so much for so many
The Professor: Why not have more people on the RC?
Sheldon: ...Have you ever tried to run a weekly D&D night with your friends?
@@Zookmottin multibillion dollar corporation pay their board of directors a lot of money to be present. I don't think we want to link the rules committee with that kind of financial incentives so the comparison is kinda dead in the water.
@@Zookmottin A board of directors is a majority rules operation, not one running on consensus. So the comparison is invalid. As for why they don't want to run a purely democratic system, I don't know, but that's where it's at.
@@xxhellspawnedxx "because democracy is the worst system" (I may have left a bit out here)
@@xxhellspawnedxx Sheldon has expressed anti-democratic sentiments on his discord before
@@soren1803 Anti-democratic, or simply preferring a slower, consensus-based decision making process? I mean, I have a hard time believing that he's some sort of elitist or supremacist, of any sort.
What a fantastic interview! I greatly appreciate that Prof was totally willing to kinda just gun it on important topics, rather than dance around the point (looking at you, Dockside!). At the same time, I feel like there was a great deal of respect between Prof and Sheldon, and even when Sheldon didn't give the most satisfying answer, Prof's comments on that were never harsh or clearly antagonistic. Like I said, fantastic interview
@@XCodes nah still the card is a mistake and always will be. 4 player 3 tresure and a are positive in mana
@@XCodes imagine unironically comparing dockside and dark ritual lmaoo. Also saying it wouldn't be a problem if other cards were banned is like saying paradox engine wouldn't be a problem if mana rocks/dorks didn't exist lol. Technically true, but maybe, just maybe, the one card is the game-breaking problem, not the 10s-100s of format staples that it benefits from.
It was a good interview, with the exception of the "diversity-question". Can't people just stop injecting their ill-informed political beliefs into things we enjoy?
@@XCodes man are you kidding rigth? Do you really need me to explain why dockside is broken? If so let me help you.
@@XCodes Being a creature already means better than instant, treasure better than single use mana, and dorkside can easily hit 5+treasure
I think the only thing keeping Dockside Extortionist from creeping into every single deck is the absurd cost of the card, and for that matter Wizards of the Coast not reprinting it enough.
While I agree, I do argue many players don't mind people proxying. Either if they don't own the cards, or own only 1 copy of the card between multiple decks
And Brian, what a great job as an interviewer! Congratulations!
Yup, if you can afford to run dockside in every single deck with red splash, you should be. The card is so much more broken than primeval titan unless your running a land matters theme.
you are right, is not in every single deck that use red just because of the price. That card is cancer. And sol ring and mana crypt too.
The other part about dockside it over performs at higher power and is just ok at lower power level tables.
This video introduced me to Sheldon, the Godfather of Commander. I'm deeply saddened to read that he passed away today. Thank you Sheldon
Commander brought me back to Magic...hadn't played in 16 years, Dominaria was coming out on my birthday so I stopped in my LGS...everyone was playing Commander, and I learned that all my old cards from 1994-2002 were actually useful in a format and got hooked! Thanks, Sheldon!
Same here! Commander rocks, and I don't agree with everyone that thinks it should just be considered a casual format.
This is why we love the professor. He genuinely has the community's best interests at heart and asks the good questions and doesn't cater to the guest while simultaneously being respectful. Love it!
Can we please have more of these interviews? It was really amazing to see you two talk, I would really love to see more videos of you talking to the higher ups of magic the gathering.
Thank you for letting the rest of us get a peak and a small chance to be familiar with this magical being. I hope all the shuffle up and plays and this conversation get revisited so we can all appreciate what a gift Sheldon truly was to our gathering not as the father of edh but as an amazing person he truly had a gift to make you feel apart of something even through a screen. RIP legend
This was fantastic Prof. You are an absolutely slick interviewer. The right balance of respect and inquisitiveness, the exact right amount of edge. Love to see you interview others in the game.
With today’s announcement of the RC committee being taken over by wizards. It is truly a sad day for Sheldon’s vision of being independent, community driven format focus on the social nature first then game play second. Not beholden to shareholders and investors. His regret was that they weren’t more vocal in their bannings in the modern commander era. Their messaging was far from perfect but Jim and the RC committee acted in good faith of Sheldon’s vision and did not deserve the backlash they got.
Although Sheldon is gone, his vision and ideas are not lost in my mind when I sit down at the table to play regardless of who’s controlling the RC. RIP Sheldon.
Well said.
@@brandonharris9306 thank you. I’m hoping that everyone will do the same. Sometimes when things seem stressful or burdensome the best remedy is to remember why you started in the first place. For me, the art of magic, brewing and meeting new people is why I still engage with MtG.
The reason dockside isn't played as much as hullbreacher was is that
way more copies of hullbreacher were printed
Ikr, when hull was legal it was i think $11-19 while dockside is only now $50-70. So of course it started appearing everywhere!
Could have the price ranges wrong but I definitely remember buying a hull and not thinking about it as much as a dockside.
Bingo. The logical fallacies betting used are sort out astounding. It's no wonder that transparency has been so sparse. You know Rachel Weeks chatted with dude about Sisay after she got shut down by shrines on I Hate Your Deck.
Yeah I was surprised the cost/scarcity element didn't come up
If anything it's even more reason to ban since it's inaccessible
@@theelectricant98 how bout we unban primetime first. He's suffered enough
Sheldon: The first thing is, we don't do 'Why this, not that,'
Prof: You do here!
I literally spit out my coffee in laughter 😅
The fact that he thinks that line of reasoning would get more cards banned rather than unbanning unreasonable bans should disturb the community playing under him.
@@Zafocaine I can see both ways of thinking. There are a lot of cards that could be lifted from the banned list but there are also a lot of people who'd rather see a card like Dockside banned rather than see Prime Time unbanned.
@@DylanHunter64 as far as banning for power level, I think there are only a few cards that get talked about enough to possibly (and popularly) deserve a ban (Dockside, Thoracle, Ad Naus, Fierce Guardianship, perhaps a few more). About as many or maybe a few more than the number of cards that get talked about enough to warrant an unban (Prophet of Kruphix, Prime Time, Coalition Victory, Biorhythm). I don't think the banned list would immediately spike to 100+ cards as Sheldon suggests, but a progressive banned list like that, with a new ban-for-power mentality, would certainly grow much faster as Wizards continues to push commander design. Perhaps they keep it this way so they don't have to change things regularly.
@@UVAFoozle already got to disagree, play a game or 2 with Prime Time and/or Prophet of Kruphix. Those cards are very reasonable bans and will warp the format of many groups if unbanned.
@@Srynan Neither of those cards are nearly as good as dockside let alone as good as thoracle and ad nauseam. It's a joke to leave Prime Time banned especially.
It really is nice to see an interview where the interviewer and interviewee obviously have some differing views, but are perfectly respectful the entire time, even when going through some of the touchier questions. Kudos to you both!
Yes that's very rare these days and awesome to watch
Rest in peace, Sheldon. You remain alive in the lives you've touched.
What a grace to be a part of this community. I am so honored that you have managed to produce such an open, honest and heartfelt interview. Kudos to the Professor, to Sheldon and all of the people behind the scenes who have made this possible. Thanks for continuing to be reasonable, hard working and welcoming people.
That final question is such a hard question, with Sheldon being open about his current condition. It's hard not to think about that question in the context of Sheldons ongoing health issues.
Kudos for Sheldon for answering and such, but man is that, contextually, a rough question to be asked
Sheldon: "We have no stance on proxies." Prof: "Ah, so you're for proxies!" Sheldon: "Are you even listening?"
theyre probably for proxies, but cant say so because they work closely with WOTC
@@pizzapm 30 year celebration would say otherwise 😂
Cause WotC totally didn't issue a cease and desist order over proxies
in the game were Sheldon played with prof and prof asked to use a proxy Sheldon seemed personally against proxies@@pizzapm
@@Surixurient generally old dudes like this hate proxies cause they have a lot of money tied up in valuable cards
This was very interesting, Sheldon seems like a pretty good guy but I still think the rules committee is very behind with the format. I'm glad prof took him to task a bit for that. They have a lot of catching up to do.
Right, he was talking about how powerful Prime Time was...a decade ago
Yeah, for all intents and purposes cEDH is the default format and casual commander is the variant. cEDH is a board game consisting of around 300 staple cards (plus commander specific extras), reverse engineered from the most consistent version of all the rules. Casual is somewhere between a failed attempt to utilize trade binders and cEDH. Format warping things are problems for casual when they invalidate thousands of cards, but they are advantageous for developing cornerstones of a competitive format.
@@atle853 if you think cedh is played more than non cedh you are full on delusional. Cedh is the aberration that goes against what the format is, ergo the problems. There is a fixed cedh format, its called highlander
@@DimT670 I think you completely misunderstood his comment.
What he is saying is cEDH is the resulting format of such a small amount of rules and bans with an eternal card list, EDH is an aberration that shouldn't exist (not that we don't WANT it to exist, but it SHOULDN'T exist with this set of rules).
Rip
This is one of the best pieces of content I've seen in years, absolutely. Thanks prof for all your work, and thanks to Sheldon for the special gift he gave all of us with Commander! :)
Professor is out here gunning for Dockside...
As he should be. That card should have never been printed.
@@casteanpreswyn7528 Dockside is great. leave it alone
Because red usually cares about enchantments. It's a trash design AND way overtuned.
@@RafaelPanazzo its one of the worst cards ever printed. There is no justification for it other than, "it'll be expensive on the secondary market". Next you're gonna say Ancestral Recall and Time Walk are perfectly fine and balanced cards.
@@RafaelPanazzo Are you kidding me?
The conversation about dockside is difficult to listen to. The situation he described is definitely not what is going on at my LGS. The only reason not everyone is running it is because not everyone is willing to spend 80 bucks on a card. If it was 20 like hullbreacher it'd be as ubiquitous as sol ring
Yeah I want to call bullshit on Sheldon here. There are tons of docksides running around at lower power tables at my LGS. It is in pretty much every deck that has red in it, and the only limiting factor is its absurd price. Very frustrating to see it acknowledge in this way by the format rule makers.
I was really disappointed with the way the prof just changed the subject after because the answer was just not satisfactory.
@@isaacsmith3998 agree. It's frustrating when someone with so much power over the format seems so disconnected from the game I experience
100% this!! It's more about accessibility than pure power level
Hearing him talk about Dockside is really a long winded way of admitting he has a disconnect with the majority of players and how the game is played
Never related with a comment so much in my life
Much respect to both of these gentlemen. Extremely professional interview while still asking very touchy questions.
Wow, you're a great interviewer. Continuous respect, and you provided pressure in a way that wasn't "calling him out" but gave him an opportunity to clarify what he was saying.
Given today's recent news, I think there can be no more poignant of an answer to the legacy Sheldon has built than the one he gave on 49:26.
Thank you for everything, Sheldon Menery. Even though as you said, it's a bit sad that you will no longer be doing the work, the whole MTG community will keep your memory and legacy alive from here.
Well there goes my next hour
Now I know what to blame when the next episode is late.
Everything Sheldon was saying about Primeval Titan applies to Dockside. As soon as it hits the battlefield it becomes a race to copy, reanimate, etc. it. It's had less reprints and is significantly more expensive than Prime Time and that's the only reason it's not showing up more.
EXACTLY
We are living in the Treasure Token meta, and it seems the RC likes it that way.
When i was in their discord, some people on the RC told me that they feel thassa's oracle is as hard as interact with as recurring nightmare, as problematic as that one too, yet they don't want to ban it because they use rule zero as an excuse for everything.
the RC is a joke
You're comparing apples to hershey bars when you compare Dockside in this era of edh to Prime Time back when it was legal and subsequently banned. You had to be playing around that era to really understand how broken Prime Time was at that time of MTG where it was a literal arms race to who could abuse it in whichever way possible. Dockside is nowhere close to the level of busted that PT was a decade ago by virtue of where the landscape of the rest of the format sits today.
The problem with prime titan was utility lands. Treasure tokens almost universally just tap for mana, primeval could get valakut, field of the dead, a cradle, strip mine, etc.
@@8nykspree Dockside is much, much more impactful card than Primetime ever was. Commander a format where cards like Mox Diamond, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Carpet of Flowers are stables, so Dockside is just an explosion of mana. It regularly makes 8 mana on etb, in a format where 5 mana pays for Ad Nauseam.
We are excited to have you both at the Magic Summit! Also, unban Coalition Victory! 😂
Especially since Painbow is such a badass! I need that win con in there! I'll live with Teferi's Protection and Worldfire but Coalition Victory would be so much more on par with Painbow!
It never ceases to amaze me that Coalition Victory is verboten while Liliana's Contract and other stuff is totally fine. I get the 'wait until your upkeep' is a gargantuan ask in a powerful meta, but it's so much easier to pull of Contract's condition, and it's not a dead card when you draw into it like Victory is. Also Victory uses a ton of mana, so it's really hard to hold up counter magic. I haven't decided if I'd run it in Reaper King, but it's a solid-ish spell in that deck in particular, but again, with so many changelings and Maskwood Nexus, Contract is still so much better.
@@mightyone3737 having to wait an entire turn rotation makes all the difference in the world, especially when the condition required is the easiest to remove card type. Coalition Victory has to be answered while on the stack or the game ends then and there. and it's conditions are laughably easy nowadays and can be met with three cards most of the time, one of which is in the Command zone and at least one of which is a land.
also, never mind the fact that five-color decks are already getting too strong and generally tend to be goodstuff piles, they do not need an instant win card on top of everything else.
You do realize that Commander isn't a DCI sanctioned format nor is it controlled by or ran by WoTc a subsidiary of Hasbro. So technically speaking Commander has no actual banned list right? Sheldon and his cohorts literally have zero power or authority for that matter to anything remotely close to "Banning" literally anything.
@@mightyone3737 The problem is that it's a relic from a time when full WUBRG was a novelty as decks go, and basic land "types" didn't exist, just basic lands. Two triomes and an actual WUBRG commander win you the game the same turn, when other wincons either resolve on upkeep or lose you the game if someone has a counter. Coalition Victory would actually be completely fine in Reaper King imo, as you'd have to actually have more than one creature. I'd be fine with Rule 0ing it into that deck.
Prof: Do they give you any money?
Sheldon: That's between me and them.
Uh.....
Yeah, that's the one point where I think that's not really an acceptable answer to let slide. Whether Sheldon likes it or not, he is an influencer and disclosure of any financial ties is an important ethical issue, even if he is not legally compelled to do so.
@@EwMatias I agree that he shouldn't have let that slide, I also think that if he pressed on that the interview would have been more tense and shorter
Yeah, if the answer to that question was "no" he would've just said that and that would be it. But the fact that he feels a need to keep it confidential at all basically guarantees that the funds he has gotten from WOTC is larger than 0$.
He was given 60 docksides as payment
@@EwMatias It's none of our business what you make for your time and its none of our business what Sheldon makes for his time. NOT paying Sheldon would be the classic "love for the game" excuse that hugely profitable corporations use to get free work from interns or other unpaid council/committees and its all a form of exploitation. If Sheldon's successfully secured compensation for both his time and the value he's brought to Hasbro, good for him.
I met Sheldon at Commandfest Orlando 2022 and let him know I was upset about the Golos banning. He was a good sport to my rather annoying criticism and later I even had him sign a Golos. Best event I've been to yet!
Three years ago I wanted to enter the world of Magic, but my girlfriend told me about the rotations, it stopped me right away. But recently I finally learned about the commander format, and today, I’m waiting impatiently for the arrival of my first deck (from a local game store no worries!), thank you so much for making this game accessible for casual players!
The random frame at 21:39 of Sheldon sitting by himself had me remembering certain scenes from fight club.
LMAO
The Prof phased out, but then untap happened and he came back.
We’re really lucky as a community to have folks like the Professor and Sheldon as advocates for us. I can’t imagine where magic would be without them, and I’m so glad they’re both such firm believers in creating a more welcoming, accessible, and equitable community. Thanks to you both!
Sheldon’s responses here feel very carefully pre-crafted/studied. He seems extremely reticent to speak more candidly on things, and I get the impression that the RC (or just him) feel that they are above the public opinion/perception.
He says he doesn’t WANT to say Commander is “theirs”, but my impression is he certainly feels that way.
That, combined with his admission of a "working relationship" with WotC, something we could only really speculate on before, proves to me that the RC and Sheldon himself are too wrapped up in their own bs to actually pay attention to the format on the ground level.
@@casteanpreswyn7528 not being transparent about if they're paid by WotC or not instantly made me not trust him.
@@thatepicwizardguy yeah...that shit was concerning, especially since we already know that, while they don't acknowledge the secondary market, we know WotC has investments in said market.
At this point, I'm treating the RC as WotC employees, so they cannot be trusted to make decisions healthy for the format.
@@tomprince8223 "its a good thing that WotC pays the people who are supposed to be separate from them as they are the ruling body of a fan created format" is a take I legit didn't expect.
@@thatepicwizardguy i guess you don't understand many jokes
The death trigger for Elenda, the dusk rose was what made me learn about that rule change.
Same. I bought a copy of her to build as my second EDH commander when she was around 4-5 bucks thinking she was busted. After finding out she would have to stay in the yard until I could recur her I scrapped that idea and she ended up in a bulk box. Fast forward a few years and she is now one of my favorite EDH decks to play!
I went with the more humble Gerrard post rule change 🙂 Elenda is very potent.
imagine my mind as somebody who had built Elenda with intent to let her go to grave before that change.
Didn't take recursion out, i just get to use it on other targets.
Chiming in from Denmark here - absolute fantastic interview! Never knew I actually cared about this stuff and knowledge. So great to get insights into all of this. G R E A T work, Professor. You are awesome!
Prof coming in with some heavy hitting questions. Never realized how fierce of an interviewer he was.
I kinda like it. Very direct, not antagonizing or confrontational but not dancing around the crux of the question.
He was actually a lot more tame and reserved than usual, and it was a bit disappointing.
Honestly I feel like wizards is weary whenever they okay a rep to do an interview with him. Because I would not okay some of these questions at all if I where them! 😂
@@casteanpreswyn7528 yeah, this was just an hour of Shedlon stroking his ego.
@@Xoulrath_ 100% and it was insulting as fuck. Usually Proff is better than this, makes me think he had to agree to a WotC interview contract before.
I feel like the Rules committee are individuals that wotc have grown to connect with and trust their assets with for consultation. CAG has been developed to fill the missing connection those few people have with the wider community outside judge circles and pro tours. From the outside it looks like an apprentice step for those wanting to be on the Rules committee, as its a platform from which the individuals opinions and decision making structure are becoming more visable to Wotc, to be able to see if they can be trusted to have a partnership with in the future. Like Sheldon said, providing for a future rules committee.
Rip
The ban list isn't about restricting your local group. The ban list is about events and travel. If i play with friends consistently, we'll play whatever we want. But if you sit down with random people, you can have a pre-game conversation but you can, at minimum, expect legal decks.
Yeah, Sheldon doesn't seem to understand that Commander isn't anything like D&D. Commander is a card game that needs rules and restrictions not imgination and a, "philosophy" that he mentions every 10 seconds.
@Hono Shirayuki except, it's WAS once upon a time. And to a decent extent it still is because regular playgroups have their own house rules, gameshops can have their own house rules, etc. It wasn't meant to be an overly serious format, meant to be something to do while bsing with friends, something also in common with d&d.
@@direkitsune I see the point you are trying to make but I still wouldn't compare a competitive card game to D&D. The comparison just doesn't make any sense.
@@OmNommSnom I think your making a logical mistake. Commander is not a competitive card game, it's a casual one
@@direkitsune Commander for the most part is casual, however, Magic at its core will forever be competitive considering everyone is playing to win.
I loved this podcast but it’s left me feeling uneasy. I think prof brought up great questions and was given half answers. Would love to see more conversations like this.
Agreed, one of the first things that annoyed me is saying that the reason prime time is banned because it warps games around it. And that it’s been banned for so long that most players have not played with/against that. Formats change, decks change, cards that have been banned for a while should be re evaluated not just left on the banned list because at some point it was good.
@@moxcardboardtv8797 You also have to consider that many times, players do not understand the game well enough to know exactly what they want. Players will almost always optimize the fun out of a game if given the opportunity to easily do so. They have the clout to say they designed the format that is so popular, and you have to weigh any suggestions as a what if vs a certainty.
That being said I think the one thing they need to do if they want a leg to stand on is obliterate rule zero from space and actually take hard stances on the rules of the format. Its not a format for a small group anymore.
My personal asks? Ban the reserve list. I think a huge portion of the community would shit on them if they did that though, so whos right?
@@stickofbutter4144 have you played with it in commander?
@@juts89 Just wanted to say I agree with your first paragraph. As someone who has founded a thing myself, people often don't understand the full implications of the suggestions they put forth. Being open to collaboration and input when you become popular is important, but wanting to maintain some control of the direction of the thing you came up with is understandable to me.
I hugely agree. To maybe add a little, I that proxy conversation just made me think "this man is in WOTC's pocket", and that made this whole "spirit of commander" discourse feel hollow.
This man brought such a wonderfully fun format to the game. Shame to see what it has become.
Sheldon's a great guy. I met him at command fest Orlando earlier this year and when he came to our table, he spoke with us as if we were his friends. I really enjoyed the interview.
Eh, my experience is less positive.
He made a post in a commander Facebook group linking to how MDFC work as the commander, and the link originally said “if either face of an MDFC is a legendary creature” and was at some point in under 24 hours changed to say “if the front face.”
All he had to say when I had directly asked him about this was “it was changed after I posted the link” and then never replied when I asked why he couldn’t have just edited his post to say there was an error or correction.
Because there were a lot of arguments between people who read it just now with people who read it when first shared and had literally no reason to go back and read it again.
@@ZakanaHachihaCBC That seems like a very small mistake to judge a person by.
@@Neg319 It was getting pretty heated in the comments. Yeah it was a small interaction, but it’s also not something I judge him as a person off of, even if it’s really stupid that he didn’t make the edit.
@@ZakanaHachihaCBC You seem to be a very petty person. Sounds like a "you" problem to be honest
Yeah, the dude who called people "braying asses" for rightfully pointing out that initiative is too strong in 1v1 formats is super great. Lmao.
I played a game of EDH with Sheldon and called him out for not shuffling the top card of his deck. I don’t know if he did it intentionally or by mistake, but he wrote an article about it lol
Got a link to the article?
Link?
It's entirely possible OP is trying to post a link, YT likes to delete comments that contain links or things that look like links.
Link?
Whats the name of the article at least, and where was it posted? We can just google it
As someone that generally disagrees with the RC, I find this interview quite an interesting listen. Sheldon is quite an interesting person to listen to talk about magic, very articulate. I have watched the discord a bit of late and find it something that is quite a good bridge of communication for the RC and general base (which I have mostly been critical of not existing).
Still will disagree (in respectful manner) but nice to want to hear more of the RC instead of less. I would love to see an extended interview
(Also love the Prof asking about Leovold and reaction to the “No” lol)
Sheldon seems fairly pragmatic, and I appreciate that. I think the RC has become more transparent over the past few years, but part of the point the Prof was making is that there's still gaps even with some of the CAG's input. a diverse range of voices in the CAG (budget vs big spenders, casual vs cEDH, Johnny/Jenny vs Spike vs Timmy/Tammy, new players vs rules lawyers) should provide enough useful input to accomplish the intended goal, but not all those players should have a final say on the commander format. as Sheldon points out, the useful takeaway from some piece of data is when it's filtered through someone like Shivam to see how Shivam's experience is impacted.
also I want to say dockside has a low floor but a high ceiling. the issue is exacerbated by the prevalence of mana rocks.
I'm generally all for representation, but I really don't think we need more people in a rules committee that just say "yeah just rule 0 your playgroups lol". What I get from him talking about the philosophy of commander is that, at heart, it is a "casual" format, and that the banlist is just a guide for playgroups. I don't feel that there needs to be a huge governing body just for them to say "hey you probably shouldn't play golos but it's up to you guys anyways". Afaik, the commander advisory group is pretty well diverse too and they do speak with the rules committee enough, I'd hope
As someone returning to magic, but new to commander, I have to say you’re interview was very well done and much appreciated!
Prof you are not afraid to ask the hard questions or call out what players are thinking. I really appreciate your content and product reviews. This looked like a semi-tense interview and it was a great look behind the curtain so thank you for doing this.
That Magic Summit promo is the funniest promo Prof has done in a while
7’s only in the Commander Arena 😂
lol "And Vince!"
I'm a baby Magic player (started mid-2023 right after March of the Machine Dropped) and if it weren't for Phyrexia - but more importantly the Commander format - existing, I wouldn't be playing. I'm still new to the Magic world but it's really nice to see the level of respect given to people like Sheldon. I love "interview Professor", you ask REALLY good questions that lead into interesting answers. Loved this interview. Bless you Sheldon!
he really said "we're the only format with a conscience" in the first five minutes lmao. this is gonna be good.
if the conscience means "i don't want to play / proxy good interaction" yes i agree commander players do have that 😂
@@xddddddddddddd what do you mean you dont wanna sit across from me as we both solitare towards a very eventual victory?? TRYHARD
If you aren't winning on turn 1, ignoring all interaction, then you're doing it wrong.
Rest in peace Sheldon. I hope your legacy will be respected after what’s currently taking place with the acquisition of the RC by WOTC.
Excellent interview, despite an appalling lack of discussion about the finer points of EDH Merfolk strategy and deck construction.
Sheldon's passion for the game and his dedication to creating a fun and inclusive environment for players to enjoy Magic will be remembered and celebrated by many. His contributions to the Commander format have left a lasting impact on the Magic community, and his legacy will continue to influence the way players enjoy the game for generations to come.
I think its very odd to say that Hullbreacher filtered into all tiers of Commander play more than Dockside has, when Dockside is the third most played Red card. Hullbreacher was and is banworthy, but it wasn't beating out Rhystic Study for percentage of blue decks.
Third most played red card amongst people who are engaged and invested enough in commander to put their decks online.
That's not the same as third most played red card in actuality.
And hullbreacher on turn 2-3 meant a potential wheel on turn and INSTANTLY win the game for that player. Rhystic can be played around and interacted with much better
I think the analysis also misses on economic conditions of the cards. Dockside was originally only printed in a precon while hullbreacher was a rare in a very opened set. Dockside is less accessible, and that affects it's adoption rate
@@vivianboor14 Then where are they getting information on how much it's being played if not from online aggregators of self-reporting? Commander isn't a sanctioned format where people submit decklists at the GP and tracking purchase data from 3rd party sources would be rife with speculative skewing.
@@DrummurDer1992 sounds like cheap wheels where the problem and not the hullbreacher
May God Bless his Soul!!! 💖
I never knew Sheldon personally however, it Felt like, Every time I "Shuffled Up" to play... He was Right there with us, Every Mistake of the Way!!!
The Commander format Helped me through some Misery and Pain... Nigh! Sheldon helped me through!
If it were not for HE, Commander and a Close Friend... I Might Not be here right now...
I wish his Family and Close Friends, Strength... For I have Yet to find mine! 💝 🍻
Beautifully written. So much passion, gratitude, and respect. Big heart
At one point I thought the Prof would ask to treat the witness as hostile. What a great interview. Great job Prof.
Great video! I'm building my first commander deck while watching this video and it's good to get to see behind the curtain.
This was a great interview! It’s super interesting listening to this conversation and good for the prof for throwing a combination of soft and hard questions!
Sheldon doesn't want to say Commander is his, but Prof's question at 14:20 got him to say it. That's the main thing I got out of this interview because Sheldon's been carefully crafting his responses for years.
Now onto speculation about why Hullbreacher was even allowed to live more than a month, why Dockside is _really_ still alive, and what "that's between me and them (Wizards)" is supposed to mean. :)
"that's between me and them (Wizards)" is supposed to mean. Most likely conclusion is Wizards saying "We're allowing you to be in charge of this, but you're going to have to do things our way or else we will take it over". "Tow the line and we will let you keep your figurehead status"
It was about if and how much wizards pays him. No need to dig much further. Listen to the whole context of it.
If you are a company presented with a unique situation like this (one guy determines the demand of your supply), of course you're gonna put him on the payroll, public or otherwise.
Here to pay my respects. Thank you for bringing joy to so many of us nerds. Rest easy, good sir.
Does wizards pay you money
"Meh that's between us"
Answer: yes
The Leovold question encapsulates my personal issues with the RC as an entity. In that, until they play it, they don't seem to see it as an issue, and from previous statements and articles, it seems like their personal play groups are fairly static. So if they don't see the problem cards they don't discuss them. Hopefully adding new blood as they have done lately will accelerate the problem cards being brought to the group.
yeah if you aren't playing with a plethora of players on the regular, or have access to data on the matter, then you are frankly not qualified to make very many decisions. a DAO would be the best way to handle this.
That was such an interesting interview… thanks for it!!!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Loved hearing form Sheldon, loved that Prof didn't only ask easy questions either.
Thank you Sheldon for creating such an amazing way to play an already amazing game
Discussion about primeval titan exactly describes dockside except dockside is 80 bucks so we don't all have one... it warps every time it shows up
i feel like dockside is a worse offender because you can throw it into almost any deck and as long as the opponents plqy a certain way, it wrecks them every time. for primeval titan, you need to craft a deck around it a bit more because you need to recast it or copy it.
I wonder if the Rules Committee has thought of renaming the Ban List to something like "Suggested Unfun Cards". It removes the impression that "the format says you can't play that" and moves the idea of card exclusion to the rule 0 discussion
If that occured, why would we even need the RC? Rule 0 in it's purest form removes a need for the RC to even exist, that would make their existence irrelevant.
That sounds like a really interesting idea. Changing the verbage certainly changes the feel of things.
As long as everyone on the RC is qualified and invested in the format it should not matter what their identities are.
It doesn't. Unless you're in some whiny special interest group
@metroidbum I agree! I'm a woman, and I don't want anyone selected for the RC because she's a woman. It should not matter either way.
So in your eyes a, lets say, perpetually all white all male commander committee , one of the most important groups in magic, would mean nothing in particular and wouldn't be indicative of any deliberate exclusion and wouldn't signal to people magic is for some very specific ppl
Good to see another Untitled podcast!
lmao
I'm really glad this conversation happened. Some good questions were asked.
If only any them were actually answered
@@gigawarman12 THIS
Sheldon dodged around anything resembling a good answer. His defense for Primeval Titan still being banned was hilariously weak and pathetic.
@@Arcdemon44 it was basically a non-answer
@@gigawarman12 he is not wrong about how the games look like when titan is involved. but i still don't understand why dockside is not in the same place as titan.
Very glad this was recorded - thanks Professor. RIP to a MTG legend.
I appreciate being willing to come on and chat with a large figure in the community such as the Professor. While I don't feel like too much was elaborated on I didn't already hear from just bouncing around the MTG creator space, what I did realize from subtle cues is that how I view commander is *NOT* how Sheldon views commander by a long stretch. He's very much got this "it's our baby" mentality about something that decidedly is no longer their baby.
Right?! He's complaining about Primeval Titan in a world where turn 1 Thoracle/Consultation is a thing. Makes sense.
It's entitlement, and nothing more. He thinks that a select few should be able to Gatekeep the format while still calling it a "community driven format" (a phrase which he said so quickly that it sounded like one word because he wanted to get all his rehearsed PR phrasing in). It's not community driven if Darth Menery is in the driver seat and the rest of the bus is filled to the gills with RC/ CAG members.
Well said!
@@Zafocaine the most common thing that I've heard since WotC started designing directly for the format is that most people hate it. The draw to Commander for a lot of people before, was using cards that just didn't work in any other format, and finally having a place to play them. Now it's just a situation where you buy the latest sets, or at least singles from those sets, or your deck is unplayable.
@@Xoulrath_ I mean this is just blatantly false lol. Powercreep is a definite problem, but I pulled a slightly upgraded precon out after stopping playing from HoD-KamigawaND and literally won a pod the first week I was there, and ended up as archenemy in a pod with a slivers player the next week lol. Maybe you're just not very good at deckbuilding and rely too much on strong cards instead of powerful synergies?
Big respect for Sheldon. Keep up great work Sir. Best what happen to EDH is that rules are not in the hands of WoTc. It keeps the game fun and healthy as it is.
The only reason dockside isn't in every single red deck is just because it's so expensive so that's really a weak excuse for not banning it. He basically said 'it's only warping the format for players with more money'
To elaborate I don't think it should be banned, if it's played early it's just fair ramp in red and if it's played late camp it's no worse than any of the infinite combos people run. I think there's more of a case to bann freed from the reel. Just don't want my first comment to come off as some p.o'd dockside hater lol
@@zachryharp youre absolutely right. I'm actually in the camp of no ban list at all and just have players decide whats okay at their tables, but dockside is only not in every single red deck because its expensive.
he meant cedh which is free to play if you proxy, dockside isn't great at casual tables because it doesn't produce as much as early, also you don't combo out at casual tables
Prof you have such a weird, beautiful, ambivalent relationship with commander. It’s the most love/hate thing I’ve ever seen lol. Really good interview though, It would be really cool to see other members of the CAG on sometime to talk about the state of the format.
I feel like Rule Zero convos are "How are we gonna play tonight". I'm glad he said "There's a ton of format warping cards" clearly there's also an aspect of working with WotC. If they banned say Dockside a week before it was announced in Double Masters....whoops. I think it IS very appropriate to compare bans though.
What a profound and meaningful interview this was! Thank you very much for facilitating it Prof!
The current setup of a smaller governing body and larger advising body is actually really clever. As he said, getting 6 people with equal voices to agree is hard enough, expanding that number (for whatever reason) would ultimately degrade its ability to set appropriate guidelines.
Yeah! Even better, What if we only had one führer? Then the disicions are made only by 1 person, there for eleminating the need for disscussion or governing?
No. So, if it is gonna be a smaller body, it needs to be an odd number of people and decisions should be voted on by majority not uniformity.
@@portaltoanotherdimension5312 You can't be serious.
Very interesting interview, straight to the point and no restraint. I would have liked to have Sheldon's take on Universes Beyond, but aside from that, it was very informative. Thanks Prof.
Great interview, rip Sheldon
You can tell prof really cares about the community. He’s willing to ask hard questions directly for us.
Loved the interview, but it really made me dislike Sheldon here...
It's ABSOLUTELY important for people to know if wizards is paying the RC, they directly influence the secondary market A LOT
@@Caio22011 And then theirs also the “we haven’t expanded because it’s hard getting 6 people together” reasoning.
And outside this interview, a bunch of really bad takes.
@@Caio22011 Him not answering is enough for you to determine the truth.
@@Caio22011 I definitely wasn't happy with Sheldon's response to this question. However, I do think there should be at least some nuance to the response to that. At a minimum, I hope Sheldon was paid for his work on the design of Commander 2021 and development of the Zendikar Rising Commander decks. Also, if the RC is reviewing every set (it was unclear to me from the interview if it was every set, or just commander targeted ones), I think it would be reasonable and unproblematic for Wizards to pay for their time doing that. I think any response other than "I have never received any money from Wizards" (which I hope is false) would have received a negative response, so I can understand his reluctance to discuss it.
@@tomprince8223 I get what you're saying, but I honestly think avoiding the question seems like the worst type of response he could have made
Why should this be secretive if he is acting as a consultor? And again, his word carries A LOT of weight on the secondary market
I gotta agree with Sheldon on keeping the group small. A larger group could be more representative of the community, but you only have to look at the US Congress to see how ineffective a large decision-making body can be.
Hail, God-Progenitor of our favourite format, EDH! (not the urghhh… trademarked “Commander”)
And big thanks for bringin him onto the show, Prof!
I nominate The Professor be on the RC. He really is here for love of the game! He has the player's interest at heart. Thank you Professor for the awesome interview! Thank you Sheldon for the game that is such a big part of our lives!
Why did he have to say he, and the rules committee, weren't against proxies in so many ways? Mr. Menery had great answers to Prof's hard questions. Wonderful interview between two men you can tell respect each other. The way the different groups and Wizards work together to put each other in check is a great relationship.
Also, RIP Sheldon Menery...
I imagine WOTC doesn't permit it, and he wants to play diplomatic. He also personally doesn't like proxies, so saying anything directly positive about it would go against his beliefs. And technically creating proxies could be seen as a copyright violation and therefor a crime, but there are ways to create proxies that doesn't do that so it's most likely the first two reasons.
I wonder how Sheldon feels about local gaming stores that make their own ban lists. And I'm speaking of the stores that have been seen on reddit for banning tutors, fast mana, "feels bad" cards like dockside, RL cards, all LD, etc.
The philosophy document talks about this: "We encourage groups to use the rules and the ban list as a *baseline* to optimize their own experience. This is not license for an individual to force their vision onto a play group, but encouragement for players to *discuss their goals* and how the rules might be adjusted to suit those goals."
If dockside extortionist gets banned we know the RC actually does just ban cards based on what the professor says
it should´ve been banned 5 minutes after seeing print
Wait until Saw in Half becomes eternal legal and we can trigger docksides ETB 3 times lol
Very interesting to hear his take on the ban list. I agree that a few bans do provide a structure for the format (power 9), yet some cards seem very randomly banned because they were considered "the worst offender" and they didnt like playing against it.
meanwhile some cards thst really need a ban are unbanned because sheldon plays them in his decks...
@@jfuzzz Yeah I just provided a general example. Thanks for clearing it up for anyone else reading though!
Just getting into commander.. now finding out the creator has passed and the RC he left behind is no more. This is sad. Wizards please do right by this man.
This interview was a great service to this community and was entirely needed 👏 excellent job Prof. I think this will benefit us all greatly in our opinions of the RC and their methodology.
It's great to see such rich content and definitely gives more depth to the format. Love to see important questions being asked and could be taken further with figureheads of the community rather than purely 'entertaining' content creators saying they simply don't like card x and y.
very nice set of questions. appreciate the answers.
as for lower representation of dockside over titan... players work on limited budgets. titan was 10$ at the time of banning, dockside is 60$. it is normal to see lower representation of expensive cards. that is why sol ring is more represented than mana crypt.
As someone who has played the format for over a decade, I loved this. It's incredible to look back at how far everything has come.
Dockside is rampant in my casual games. I know because it's in all my red decks 🎅
Then you must be a very rich man, or a very poor man
As a casual player running ruric thar I don't even wanna play anymore because I don't wanna feel the need to spend 80 bucks on dockside. Nor do I like that fast mana is also.the casual playstyle nowdays
@@Hakokoro the chad rurik thar player vs the beta akroma player
ditto!
@@Amphibian42 he has one that he swaps between all of his decks
Great talk between two great minds! ❤ I love these long form discussion videos.
Now that I know there’s a format philosophy channel, I may be active in the discord.
I went to school with Sheldon! He's the best, so great to see him on here! 2 legends!
so sad to see someone with such low schooling to be failing a format and be a thorn in the side of proper banlists...
wouldn't want such a cancerous friend....
Love how Sheldon seems to basically dodge most questions until Prof basically leads him back.