N965BC Commander 695A Fatal Icing Encounter 13 Apr 2024
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- Опубликовано: 14 апр 2024
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I hit sudden mixed icing in that same area at night in the Baron BE55 going into El Monte from Death Valley. My decision (as always with ice): Immediate turn around to get out of the ice and go to Apple Valley where it was clear. The reliance on the autopilot was chilling. Push button aviators. I understand your emotions while listening to the ATC recording. Multiple times in my long aviation life, much of which was single pilot with a load of IFR and all below FL180, when entering icing conditions, turn around to get out of it immediately. Squawk 7700, declare an emergency (unforecast icing). Even through the Baron had full working boots, alcohol, and even ice lights. TURN AROUND. Don't wait to see how bad it might get.
The BE55 I flew for 27 years had alcohol props and wing ice lights only (here in the southeast). Avoided icing like the plague.
Same here. Fly a baron with boots and hot props and I use it like you said, its only for the rare instance of unforseen icing. Only happened to me once just above freezing temp and I was able to easily descend out of it but I've seen so many times where icing has overwhelmed smaller planes that I don't mess with it.
“There are old pilots and bold pilots but no old bold pilots,” as the saying goes.
why would the boots not help in this situation?
@avflyguy boots are OK for some icing but they only cover the leading edges. If ice gets beyond them or accumulates on other unprotected surfaces they cant help you
This controller was really on top of it. He tried.
Yeah, SoCal approach has never been that concerned with me. I am always turned out over the Pacific for miles whenever I depart Catalina, and I'm in a single.
I am a highly experienced airline pilot. I cut my teeth flying night airmail in the mountains. I also owned a Twin Comanche later in life. I first learned about ice in ground school and later in the cockpit. Always know what type of air mass you are advancing into before you depart. Avoid the kill zone. If flying, the very second you see icing conditions in a light aircraft get out, and get out now. Turn around, climb to colder, or clear air, or descend to clear, or warmer air. Ice kills. Never make the deadly mistake of continuing on into a worsening situation. RIP young pilot. There but for luck and a little knowledge go I.
This accident happened maybe long before he ever became a pilot or when he decided to go flying that particular day. It's all mindset. Plan your flight long before you get to the airport. Check the weather. If it looks like anything of significance, especially icing or heavy rain or thunderstorm, cancel your flight or postpone it. If you get into weather unexpectedly, plan ahead for what you will do if you run into bad weather during your flight. Like you said, at the first sign of entering weather conditions of any type, get out, do a safe 180 to make it out quick. As Juan said, disconnect autopilot when you find yourself in a sudden, unexpected icing condition. Autopilot behaviour can be insidious in icing. There would be no sign of trouble until it let's go suddenly. Listening to the radio transmissions, he went from a confident, "yea, I'm a cool happenin' pilot, damnit" voice to not hearing anything from him at all, while with other young, inexperienced pilots all you hear are sudden screams. That's how fast things can change for the worse if you don't understand, think, and plan properly.
That’s is wisdom that you have wrote. Every young pilot should be required to read your post.
Always makes me sad when I read/hear one of these. R.I.P. young man.
Indeed.
Curious if he could have kept up with the ice at all.
This one hits home. I was a freight dog many years ago in the So Cal area while working my way up. I flew over those very mountains many times in bad wx. Gorman too. I can confirm the operational attitude in the freight world was "you're going regardless". Why did we accept that? Because there was no other way to get ME turbine PIC with only 1200 hours in your logbook. That experience was gold back then because all the regionals were still flying turboprops. IMO it wasn't the ice directly that killed him. He had been given several decents and boots work very well in high speed decents. He left the AP on too long and lost track of SA. We didn't even have AP's. I lost a co worker when I was in the freight biz. It can be dangerous. I feel sad for this man. He was one of us working his way up as we all did. ....RIP bro.
Huh?
Say that in layman.
@@HarryBalzak What part did you want to know about?
@@blue81blue81 I can only assume "freight dog" is a cargo plane pilot.
What is "ME turbine"?
PIC is Pilot In Command?
SA? Situational Awareness?
I am trying to understand all your aviation lingo/acronyms via context.
@@HarryBalzak You actually did pretty well. Yes freight dog is a slang term for cargo pilots. They fly at all times of day and night, in bad weather and good, sometimes in old airplanes of questionable integrity, for very little money. Pretty much makes us dogs. ME refers to multi engine. Turbine refers to an airplane with gas turbine engines...or jet engines....as opposed to piston engines. Turbine engines can utilize their exhaust as thrust....jets. Or can be designed to use exhaust to spin a prop. Both burn jet A fuel. Correct PIC is pilot in command. Correct again SA is situational awareness. I was trying to use brevity but still make my point.
There's definitely a reluctance to turn off the autopilot and hand fly. So easy to "woulda shoulda coulda" an incident after the fact, but current day flight training on "modern" G1000 et al aircraft is part of the issue. You used to graduate to capable automation AFTER you spent years flying with little to no automation. Nowadays, you start out with capable automation, and never really learn to fly beyond the bare minimum of competency.
Please always be cautious before speculating guys and gals. This pilot was my best friend and fellow pilot. The family and all of us closest friends are not even living in reality right now. The summary from Juan was well explained but I don’t like how some comments are overused and misused like “no old, bold pilots”. This man was an amazing man and a great pilot even for the low time he has. We all make mistakes, that doesn’t mean he was doing anything reckless or bold. Task saturation is real and workload builds fast when all the issues stack up like this. Be safe flying out there. Rest in peace my friend. There is no replacement for you.
I'm very sorry you lost your friend.
Thank you for the kind comment. He was also my instructor and has taught me so much about flying. Sadly, this is the last lesson I get from him. He is the most kind, generous, fun and capable guy.
I’m very sorry for your loss. It’s probably best to just avoid reading the comments. They will bring you nothing but anxiety at a time when don’t need it.
Sorry for the loss of your friend. I don't think anyone meant he was being reckless. I think he flew into an unfamiliar weather situation and may not have preciously experienced icing at night. It is one thing to have visual clues during the day and not having those clues at night. A tragic accident.
Sorry for your loss. Condolences to his family.
My son was part of the San Bernardino SAR team that was first to find the wreckage. There was a post-crash fire, everything was shredded and they could not find the tail number.
They sent out several SAR teams, the team he was part of found the wreckage. They had to rappel down a steep hill to access the wreckage and the remains.
Taking part were the FAA, Highway Patrol, San Bernardino Search and Rescue, San Bernardino Sheriff Department, CalFire, and San Bernardino National Forest Rangers, among others.
As part of SAR they do not take on-site photos, and cannot transport remains until the Coroner's Office has conducted their examination and released them.
No matter how experienced the rescuers be, and no matter how much is tried to disconnect emotions, it must still be devastating to witness something like this.
You must be proud of your son.
SAR..... Search and Rescue
By the time the SAR team had completed their activity, the victim's family was on-site at the command post. A secondary team performed the recovery operation. Everything awaited the NTSB go team (that arrived Monday) to perform their preliminary review of the crash site.
My heartfelt condolences to the family, relatives, and friends of the pilot.
Sir, you answered our questions with the skill of an analyst, and the grace of a leader.
Juan, back in my freight dawg days, I was flying a Metroliner over the Blue Ridge Mts, single pilot. Bouncing along near the tops with the AP on and the dome light on, filling out some paperwork, I noticed that the trim system had been beeping (indicating a change in elevator trim). I flipped on the ice light and jeez! I must have had about an inch and a half of rime buildup (quick), so I hit the boot switch. Not much, if anything came off, but in hindsight, the right wing (which I couldn’t see) must have shed, because I clicked off the AP and that sucker rolled to the left nearly inverted. The roll rate on the dogrocket is about 3 degrees a minute on a good day, so by the time I got it level, I had lost a few thousand feet. Thankfully, I had just passed the windward side of the ridges and I had the terrain clearance to live another day. I had to replace my uniform pants.
Mountainous terrain, cold and moisture are a recipe for unplanned excitement, especially in a turboprop!
Metroliner dog trap I can still hear those Garrett engines yuck
@@nobodyspecial7185 😂🥴🤘🏻
Some times I'm surprised I lived with so many things while I was learning. I guess I had a guardian angle. 18,400 hours when I retired, 0 since. RIP Young one. Good Post Juan.
Exactly. There’s a bit of luck in building time/experience.
angel
Like 45°?
A right angle
Wow, my father retired because after all the years, ATC made a mistake that scared him (close call) he gave up what he loved.
The description of differences in icing affects between different aircraft is exceptionally relevant.
Also difference between events as well. Could be light icing, could be heavy.
Same as mtn wave, turb etc. 737 isn't impacted quite like a Seneca. That's why they always announce "type" on all PIREPS
One could have all the deicing equipment to beat the band on a naturally aspirated piston twin and an encounter with just a few minutes of moderate ice will have you wondering how FIKI ever became a thing. But there’s a huge difference between a light piston twin and a powerful turboprop. Horsepower to climb, to cruise at 250kts indicated, and yes, to carry enough ice for the happy hour. Any airplane can be overwhelmed with ice, but powerful, well equipped machines offer more options. Not even a Baron 56tc has the kind of mojo a 690, MU2 or most King Airs do.
For me this is the only slight disadvantage to high wing planes. You cannot see the top of the wings from inside the plane. So icing might occur undetected.
@@bartofilms There would be other indicators of ice-prone conditions that should warn the pilot to get out of there.
I swear, before your channel I was so uneducated on these things. Thanks a bunch for covering these GA accidents.
Amen. Thank uou Jaun for the excellant training & service you provide our community, & introducing many of us to :Weightless" by Aram Bedrosian
Your advice, Juan, to switch off the autopilot is so very much spot on!
It is very important to 'feel' the aircraft. And not only the feel, there sometimes is a change in sound as well.
I'll never forget an icing encounter I had as a young captain over the Vosges mountains in eastern France on approach to Basle on a SAAB 340. We flew along side those mountains (on the 'wrong' side of them as well...) when ever so slightly the wind sound changed without us doing anything as we were still in cruise. First thing: I switched off the autopilot and felt that the airplane reacted somewhat mushy. Second thing: I started an immediate emergency descent down to the MVA. The rest of the flight went uneventful. Icing and it's effects on the aerodynamics of an airplane are very insidious - thanks Juan for this very good advice you give out!
My heart goes out to this young flyer who lost his life and his family and friends. Sometimes we survive by being plain lucky.
That'sbeen written in Blood, decades ago. Juan is doing a great job in reinforcing and educating us on these unfortunate accidents and bring more awareness..
I used to fly the Saab 340 and it liked collecting ice many a time I had to decent to keep the aircraft flying.
@@Rob-100 Yes and often so on the tail plane :-()
“ you don’t know what you don’t know” . We can LEARN from Juan, Mentor and others but still have to get in that seat
Perhaps here should be a rider: "...and some people just won't be told."
the 4 stages of learing
he literally just read the NTSB report for a good chunk of the vid, lol.
When you get in that seat ,use the knowledge you have ...Like in this case turn auto pilot off in icing conditions are threatening or exsist .. He didn't do a very simple thing !
@@dennisstoesz I’m not a pilot but is that standard procedure to turn off the auto pilot in icing conditions. The icing seemed to happen so quickly too.
N965BC was not a 965A……but a 695A. A 1000 Turbo Commander. I just retired with just short of 20,000 hours. Somewhere close to 7000 hours in Turbo Commanders. It was early in my career. Total time when climbing into my first Turbo Commander was around 3500 hours. Two years prior to the Commander was night freight in everything from Seneca’s, Baron’s, Cheyenne’s to King Airs. Scheduled routes, at night, hard IFR, storms, fog, etc….and yes…….very young…..but experienced.
I said all this to say……..this young man was way too inexperienced to be in a 300 kt+, very high performance airplane!
As far as icing goes…….it was always my least favorite, and most dangerous weather conditions. That being said…….I’ve been loaded up with ice in a Turbo Commander a number of times. One particular time I recall was severe icing. The aircraft handled it well.
Too much too soon in this case.
My sincere condolences to this young man’s family.
What is 300kt+?
@@oif3gunnertwin commander 1000 will do that speed
@@oif3gunner The specifications for this aircraft type says maximum cruising speed of 308 knots, so that’s what he’s referring to.
@@65gtotrips oh thank you, that makes sense. I don't know anything about aircraft or flying.
300 Knots ≈ 345 Miles per Hour
Flying the EMB120 at the regional we had to turn off the autopilot in icing because of several upsets and a fatal accident on the type. As ice builds the autopilot will trim nose up to hold the selected altitude and eventually disconnect when trim force is too high or the speed will decay to a stall if not noticed.
R.I.P. young aviator.
So chilling, one minute you’re on autopilot, next minute you’re in the terrain! Hope many GA pilots, see this and learn, not to push their luck vs. Ice
Few will learn, unfortunately. Few of them will even watch this type of safety video. I’ll always bet on the ice.
I was on a flight with a friend of mine that is a 737 pilot for American Airlines in a King Air one night when he was concerned about icing. He increased the speed and took it off of Autopilot in this same area on our way from Long Beach to North Las Vegas. As he put it to me, "this ain't like the Deadliest Catch, I can't send you out there to knock ice off the wings." The plane had de-icing boots and he was using them.
Great report....
Seeing your frustration at the decision to decline vectors and the failure to disengage autopilot is really refreshing.
In the seventies I used to go hiking in those mountains. There were lots of aircraft wrecks, quite a few military from the World War 2 era, and some dating back to the thirties.
Wow. Thats pretty intresting
This literally happened in my back yard. I was the one that commented on your last video a few hours after it happened. I could not be more devastated. Entirely competent pilot, sober, wise, honest. The airplane was perfect for these conditions, everything I can find it had icing capabilities. So, so, so sad. Another family is broken right now. God bless them.
"Icing Capabilites" unfortunately doesn't count for much, even in the most capable airplane. I was taught early on that Icing Equipment should never be counted on to be enough to fight the icing for any extended amount of time and that your *only* concern should be to get out of it, whether it be descend, turn around, or even climb (if you descended into it).
I know it’s not the same but people who use cruise control on icy roads end up in deadly situations too
It is kindof the same. Relying on automation to do what your brain and hands should be doing to 'feel' the performance of either vehicle or aircraft.
Very much the same. Everything is fine,until suddenly it isn't.
You can hear the stress level incresase during his last transmissions. This accident is a stark reminder to all GA pilots out there: Icing in a light aircraft is very different from icing in an airliner. The ice protaction systems in light aircraft may cope with light icing, but not with moderate icing. And single pilot IFR is the most stressful operation there is. Therefore, you need to elimintate as many threats as possible. The autopilot is a valuable tool, but will become a death trap in icing. Not only that: Icing causes the stall speed to increas dramatically, and because to excessive drag, you will not be able to maitain airspeed and altitude at the same time. In this case, airspeed is more important. If you lose control, you will ceertainly die. If you are in control when reaching the accident site, you have a higher chance of survival...
My father was an engineer for McConnell-Diuglas and then Boeing and we flew a Baron B58 upgraded to G1000 glass. We had the airplane with all the options and still to this day I remember my dad saying that IMC = I'm in Control and to never use autopilot and to feel the airplane. He was wise beyond belief. He was one of the engineers that designed the Mercury and Gemini capsules and then went straight on the F-15 design project. He knew what he was doing. His good friend, Gene Kranz, can vouch for that.
Proper use of autopilot during single pilot IFR operations actually increases safety. In fact, under part 135 in a twin engine airplane, in order to operate single pilot IFR you must have a functioning autopilot and it's part of the part 135 checkride to know how to use it. Yes, he needed to kick off the autopilot during these icing conditions but "never" using autopilot in IMC is definitely not the right approach either.
@johnaclark1 totally agree. I should have clarified that under his icing conditions that autopilot should be turned off. But, also good rational decision making - I e. turning around should also be trained into every pilot. Know your limits and the limits of your plane.
In IMC, shouldn't one be less inclined to trust what they feel and more inclined to trust the instruments? Dont pilots regularly get disoriented in IMC and then crash because they trust what they feel over the instruments? Just asking as that's what Ive come to understand. Im not saying use auto pilot in such conditions either, just that since you have no point of visual reference, you should be less inclined to trust what you body tells you is happening. Do I have that wrong?
Sage post.
@@JBS2018 I believe he's talking feel as it specifically relates to the trim of the aircraft, hand flying can help you feel that something is off sooner. You are correct in that you shouldn't trust what you feel in IMC to change the attitude of the plane - for that you rely on instruments.
This is really tough to listen in on the young guy really losing control. Especially since I did essentially the same thing flying out of Pueblo, Co enroute to Scottsdale, Az except as soon as I picked up ice I asked for a SSE vector but continued picking up ice until the A/C would not hold Altitude, through MVA, then below radar and only the grace of God broke out around 2000’ agl, shedded the ice then continued to AMA landed and changed my pants.
Same thing happened to me as a freight dog NB on V-23 over Mt. St. Helens (pre-eruption - 1981). Iced up instantly at night at 12,000, turned back south, literally fell out of the sky, into warm air at 3000 just north of Battleground, and regained control at 1200' staring at the tree tops coming fast. ATC was so far behind where I was all they could do was sit back and watch it nearly happen. Again, new pants, but completed the trip in a heck of a bigger, faster, better-equipped A/C.
I am a retired charter pilot with 6000 total hrs. and 2500 hrs. flight instructing. I certified pilots from Private to ATP. This accident makes me very sad. I would like to know what certificates and ratings this kid had. A Commander is one hell of an airplane . How much time in type did he have ? I flew single pilot autopilot IFR all over that area in California and on the East coast in all kinds of light aircraft ,mostly King Airs. The Sierra Madres are treacherous and I am certain he was dealing with turbulence. I loved flying in bad weather but icing was the one thing that scared the s..t out of me. I once barely landed a Navajo looking out the side window with about ½” of accumulated ice. I feel very sorry for this kid. If he was my son I would want to interview his flight instructors. Did he go to Flight Safety for that aircraft ? 1500 hrs seems low to turn him loose alone in a Commander particularly IFR. Thank God he didn’t have passengers.
Lots of questions to be answered. Someone else would have allowed this situation to happen that should have known better.
The only pilot I knew who died flying, did so in the same make and model. Similar story, bad weather, one zippy airplane that's a handful, and trying to build time to get noticed.
I wish more of the young pilots building flight hours watch Juan's educational videos and learn, this accident reminded me of the American Eagle ATR that crashed in Roslyn IL during similar icing condition with the Autopilot masking off the dangerous out of trim condition until it couldn't keep up. RIP young aviator.
Flew into Philly years ago as an FO on the CRJ-100. Was vectored around for a bit due to weather approach delays. We were in the gew collecting ice. I noticed the digital display trim indicator changing position over time at constant intervals up to an indicated value I had never seen on this plane (flew it 5 years). Suggested to the captain that we disconnect the autopilot -and the moment we did the Rj began a very distinct out of trim sudden nosedive... We both instinctively grabbed the control column and hand flew the rest of the way in without issue. Watch that autopilot when in the gew!!!!!
Collecting ice where? The airplane is well protected against icing
@@mmayes9466 if it's like the CRJ-200 the entire tail is not heated. Not sure how how many airliners are like this but the 737's horizontal and vertical stabilizer are not heated also.
@@joeneu okay, same question to Joe Patroni: Where was the plane collecting ice?? Says we were in the goo (gew) collecting ice. Certainly Bombardier didn't say "Hey, lets leave the tail unprotected so the plane will nosedive when in icing conditions and the pilots will pizz all over themselves??"
@@skyboy1956 ice built up on the horizontal and vertical stabilizer. I forgot the exact wording but in moderate icing the manual explains that there was simply no need for the tail to be heated. In severe icing, by definition, the ice accumulation may be too much for the de-ice/anti-ice systems even for short periods of time. I would assume that also means exceeding the design limits of the airplane to handle a certain amount of ice buildup on flight surfaces.
So sad to hear. My condolences go out to the friends and family. Believe it or not I actually watched him depart from KMYF to KSCK that very same day. Never would have guessed that would be the last time I’d see him. Rest in peace
I grew up learning to fly with old fashioned six packs and usually no autopilot. Now I’m getting current again by learning Garmin G1000 and GPS navigation with all the bells and whistles including excellent Autopilot’s. But I still like to hand fly the plane whenever I can and use the AP only when I need to. I think we have too many Magenta line wanna be pilots with addiction to the tech and an over reliance on the AP. Fly the plane!!!!
Me too! I just took a TBM up to 280 hand flying IMC. I'm not going to lie; I need more time. There is so much going on with the G1000.
As I said yo my friends dad who engages it asap, "The AP is only a convenience aid, this ain't a flying WAYMO car"
Trajic story. Juan spells it out so well. His presentations should be required viewing at all flight schools!
There is an excellent icing training program available from NASA.
Airliners are less susceptible due to the significant difference in the boundary layer formed by the larger wing and tail surfaces as well as the higher speed. It takes much larger water droplets to penetrate the boundary layer to form ice on the surfaces as well as more total water to form a buildup. It has to do with surface size more than anything else. That is why you see it form on small surfaces like windshield wipers and antennas first. Also why you need to worry about the tail even more than your wing.
The airliners also cruise above the altitude where the air has significant moisture. The dryness also precludes icing.
I find it so chilling because that poor guy could be me. I often flew in icing conditions during my APTL training completely disregarding the dangers associated with it. Seeing ice forming in the wing was something usual when flying in the cold wet winters of northern Spain.
Were you flying in icing or on AP
Thanks Juan for always trying to raise awareness for young pilots who are yet to experience these things. Keep up the good work sharing the knowledge
I picked up nasty ice close to there some 28 years ago in a BE58 Baron flying charters out of Bakersfield. Had a full boat and with only pitot heat and an alcohol prop I was getting a bit worried. I was at 9000 feet headed into SMO. Fortunately they were able to get me down and out of it. That Cajon Pass is no joke.
BFL to SMO you were most likely flying over the TEJON (not the Cajon) Pass. Nonetheless, the same principles apply.
@@jimgandee2570 Yes, actually, you are correct. It's been many years since I've flown out there but I still remember that particular flight like it was yesterday. This flight was further east than I was that day but I've flown through where he was too. Neither are places to mess around with the weather in. So sad...he was almost out of it and into the basin.
Yes, John just a few thousand feet lower and he’d have been into warmer air and VFR conditions. One thing that wasn’t discussed was the use, or lack thereof, of the deice systems on that commander. It’s a darn FIKI turboprop for crying out loud!
This is heartbreaking to hear and thoughts and prayers for the friends and family of the pilot. Icing can put someone in over their head before they know it. I don’t have a ton of experience with it in light aircraft but I flew a baron around the midwest and great lakes region for quite a few months. One night I had to make a flight to Iowa from northern Indiana in a Baron with hot props, boots and an alcohol windshield, no boots on the inner wing root. Pireps were calling for icing at 10,000 and up but nothing at 6,000 although the ceilings were lower and it was 20 degrees on the surface. I took off and encountered icing almost immediately. I had the autopilot on initially and tried to climb to 8,000ft as the situation was not getting better at 6,000ft. Through out all this I was momentarily operating the boots but had forgotten about the windshield. I knew I couldn’t turn around and get on an approach as it would keep me in the ice even longer than pressing on and get through the weather system. I think I was in light to moderate rime ice for at least 20 minutes. I had to descend to 4,000ft to get into somewhat better conditions. I remember getting through the weather and seeing the moon through the wispy clouds and finally grasping the situation. I was at 2500rpm and as much manifold pressure I could get at 4,000ft. Windshield was completely covered in ice and I had rime ice work its way to the spare on the upper surface of wing, even working the boots momentarily didn’t clear it all off. With all this I was getting 140 kts indicated and on the other side of the weather it was -20 at 4,000 ft (I believe minimum speed for a know ice baron with ice accumulation is 130kts). I landed uneventfully but even the ramp guys that helped me park and load the cargo thought I was insane when they saw the airplane covered in ice. I actually had to put it in a hanger and take the ice off with a hotel room card.
I honestly think about that night a lot even while flying for a major airline now. It definitely pushed me to my limit and I should have handled it differently. The two things that probably helped was knowing the weather would get better eventually and that the autopilot was terrible at holding altitude so I don’t remember specifically hand flying it but it was likely that I was for some period of the flight. I had around 1,800 to 2,000 hours and roughly 100hrs in the airplane. I know a lot of us have jobs to do and especially freight pilots are going no matter what is generally the mentality unfortunately. Remember that it’s ok to say no and deal with management later. Be careful and manage risk. It’s crazy how quickly weather can change and if you keep adding other factors to the flight it could be fatal. It’s never too late to make a decision but the longer you wait the less options you might have. You are the pilot in command and you have the power to change the outcome of a flight. If you aren’t the PIC, voice your concern and communicate to your crew and come up with a plan.
Good luck and stay safe.
I learned to fly at Redlands airport back in the 80's, so I know the area very well. Dean Martins son died in the same area flying an F-4 Phantom out of the old March AFB. Sad to hear such a young promising pilots last communications, RIP!
I built my time in MU2s back in the 1990s. Somewhat similar to the Commander. I thank God for having good mentors before I upgraded to captain. No doubt this could have happened to any one of us. Fate is the Hunter
RIP
Ernest K. Gann was a lucky, but careful, man.
@@PeterC5263 yes he was
At a P91 corporate dept I flew for in a previous job I canceled a flight with full seats that looked to be in ice from takeoff to touchdown. Single engine turboprop, Kodiak 100. Certified for Full flight into known ice too!
Went the next day in CAVU.
The lesson is that aircraft capability can be a trap and i saw the signs and made a good call. Why spend so much time in ice intentionally and take on such risk?
Was glad to be working for an organization that offered me that kind of leeway. There are many gaining experience out there who don’t have the same options I did.
Lack of experience on icing conditions. Relying on the AP in icing conditions obviously a big no no. As Juan said, when vectors are offered….take them.
We have to tell them that they pay us to say NO, we might have been able to make the trip but WTF.
Juan, as someone who got multi/commercial/pretty much anything past my initial license on an OLD BN Islander. I totally feel your frustration with the over reliance on autopilot. I think I was 30 before I even touched an autopilot. I get feeling overwhelmed and wanting to lighten ones workload with all the fancy gadgets most planes have these days. But too many people come to rely on them, rather than seeing them as a tool to assist. That 1500 hour rule is not helping the situation.
Terrific report Juan, just excellent. I spent my youth at a Commander FBO/Dealer and just love these airplanes. Most ppl may not realize that they are super capable high performers and fast but also very complex to handle single pilot IFR. Also, some of the worst weather and turbulence I've ever experienced is in this pass all the way past Palm Springs. The only time I thought I might be going down in my flying career was in this pass due to relentless violent shearing turbulence. Couldn't agree with you more - turn off the damn autopilot - but I fear (though hope not) that the more we automate, the more we will see this out of our new gen pilots. But I can see why he didn't shut off autopilot, hands flying an approach at night in IMC with Icing is a lot to handle and no doubt he just tried to manage in the best way he knew how. This is where experience really counts. RIP young man.
I think you paint the picture of what this pilot was up against. It would have been overwhelming if he was not too experienced in that aircraft and with all the odds stacked up against.
It amost feels wrong to hit the thumbs up button, there's nothing to like about these accidents. My condolences to the family.
Thumbs up is really just a check mark that you watched the video.
@williamconrad1087 Yeah I understand the meaning behind it, it's just there's been so many tragic accidents this year already and we're only half way through April. I'm sure Juan would also wish he didn't have so many tragic accidents to report.
Very, very sad. RIP young pilot. Thank you for the insight, Juan.
I am a low-time ppl, when i got my ticket instructor and examiner both stressed it was a licence to learn. I am learning a lot more via yt than from the classes. Its like my lesser version of your airline pilots sim time if you understand what i mean. Very valuable stuff, thank you Juan. RIP to this young man.
That approach gave me chills because I fly into San Bernadino from Texas quite often to our mountain homes just west of El Cajon Pass in Wrightwood. I’ve been caught more times than I care to count in inadvertent icing conditions coming down into the LA basin. Autopilot disconnect is your friend in those conditions and thank you for reminding me and all of us about that.
It's rough just getting over that pass in a car on some days.
The winter storm this past weekend in Southern California was much colder than the normal temperatures for mid-April. Sad to hear that this young man was not able turn back in time to save his life.
May he be at peace. Incredible analysis.
Your comment about "you don't know what you don't know" is perfect.
And a lot of young folks already know it all. They really are wired differently due to the amount of information that is at our fingertips compared to the past
Totally on point. Can't tell most of them anything...
Very sorry for the loss of this pilot. Prayers and love to his family.
As someone who has learned a ton about aviation from you over the years Juan but who has zero flying experience, I always find these ATC audio recordings so chilling. However, I can’t stop listening to them. Great and informative update as usual
Sub 1500 hr pilot flying a 250kt Turbo Commander is a recipe for trouble before you apply icing conditions. Experience as a second in command would teach some of these issues.
Seriously? The 1500 hour rule was arbitrarily made up by the FAA. It’s the training that is better. I know many fantastic sub 1000 hour pilots. 1500 hours means nothing.
Exactly. That there are some who still think that sub-1500 hour pilots belong in the right seat of a Part 121 air carrier is insane.
@@bradcrosier1332 So does that make the US and Canada the only sane countries? Europe has vastly lower time requirements and about the same safety rate for airlines, the fact is, the captain is supposed to function in part as a teacher for the FO
@@bradcrosier1332 I have just the opposite view -- why are we letting these low-time pilots fly alone for so many hours? I'm low-time myself, but I jump at every opportunity to fly with experienced pilots, even if just sitting in the back and listening to COMs. Bad pilotage in a vacuum breeds more bad pilotage. Someone doesn't magically improve on their own.
In other countries, the more senior pilots mentor and guide their junior pilots throughout their low time, imparting their wisdom, experiences, and cautions.
@@grayrabbit2211Yeah that’s an interesting way of thinking. I have 1,300 hours and have only flown solo or with even less experienced pilots than my self for the last 1050 hrs or so. Hope I’m doing it right.
I had decades of experience in light twins at 66°N and then decades of experience in twin turboprops.
In a light piston twin, certified for flight in icing conditions, I quickly learned to recognize severe icing conditions that left only one option: Get OUT! Turn back, change altitude if conditions justified it, just stay OUT of it!
Flying faster pressurized turboprops was a game changer. Cruising along at 250kt TAS gives a True Air Temperature vs. Ram Air Temperature difference of 7-8°C. If you absolutely have to stay in the "discomfort zone", i.e. in clouds with a TAT of -2 to -10°C at that speed, you only start seeing ice form at TAT -8 to -12°C, a rather narrow band rather easily avoided with e.g. altitude changes. For jets, the TAT/RAT difference is even higher.
In this case, the turning point was probably when the pilot allowed the speed to start decaying, prioritizing altitude hold over airspeed. He was already approaching lower terrain, and a simple "Mayday, descending, unable to maintain altitude due to icing" might have saved his life.
Thanks for covering this. It is good to see an experienced professional report and give commentary on the plane crash of an entry-level pilot.
Expert explanation with so many hard earned tips given, . . . thank you Juan. So sad.
Ya know Juan I had a hard time believing that the icing on this airplane could happen so quick to bring it down…. But then I remembered when I used to fly a caravan to build time at night in upstate New York over the Great Lakes and I accumulated ice so fast one night in this PT6 powered turbo prop, I could actually watch my airspeed decrease. I d immediately climbed to get out of it… it was pretty scary
Just be glad you had a Caravan with a turboprop instead of a C-206! All a 206 would offer is (hopefullY0 controlled descent to lower and warmer.
Professor Browne with another outstanding lecture on aviation safety. Thanks for the good work.
Seeing a lot of this reliance in my work too. All of a sudden we get backup cameras in cars and everyone starts to rely on the backup sensors and cameras versus using ALL the mirrors like we were taught. Add on top of that the false alerts of the backup sensors and people just ignore the beeping now...then CRASH.
Similar experience here
Yup, watch people park in a shopping center, they’re all backing in
Oh - are people losing their side view mirrors backing up past obstacles? "Clear to the rear" *crunch* "Mostly clear to the right".
@@DaveSoCal It's much safer than backing out. You you didn't think...
@@DaveSoCalYep, because it's safer to back in when you can see everything than back out when you can't. Necessary due to collapse in driver etiquette.
Oh god, my heart sank right along with those altitude readings. May he rest in peace. Thanks as always for educating us, Juan.
Thank you Juan. I'm a retired helicopter pilot and have many weather related experiences over the years I could share. But the best advice from me is to time, tune, turn, talk. I was first rated in 1974, and retired in 2010. All of that flying was without autopilot except for a couple of training flights on a newer model Bell 412 in 1982 !
Time, turn ,throttle,think gear and talk..I think is how it goes.
On fixed wing .
I have never been a pilot but used to fly with my father every weekend out of Lilydale airport, in outer Melbourne, Australia (which is really at Yarra Glen) and I loved it!! I was never afraid with my dad, he was a perfectionist and I always felt so safe with him. He ended up buying a charter company with lots of planes, and I once went with another (very competent pilot) employed by my father. It was horrific and I only went as my then 7yr old son wanted to go on one of grandpa’s planes. I couldn’t let him go alone, he is my only living child, mother logic said go with him in case it crashes. The sweat was running down from the back of my knees, I was terrified. If it had been my father I would have been fine. I got off that plane with Theo worst jelly legs. My dad flew nearly every day during the 90’s and I never worried about his safety. My brother flew too. Breaks my heart to hear this young pilot, now gone. My love to his family, I am so sorry.
Excellent clarity as always. Sad to see a young pilot find himself behind the plane in such a short period.
Juan, I am truly horrified by these icing accidents of late. There is simply no reason to take this sort of risk in a prop aircraft. When I obtain my weather briefing prior to a XC flight, any mention of icing conditions along my route, or even in proximity of my route, and I cancel that flight plan. Reroute, wait another day, but do NOT risk icing. Also: using the autopilot is a luxury, and as you point out, if it is struggling then you MUST turn it OFF and fly the airplane yourself. I have had to do this a couple of times in unexpected turbulence, and I did it early because I did not want it to turn itself off when it had flown me into a dangerous attitude. Private pilot, 1100+ hours, working on my IFR. Thanks for another important video.
Great for you but for young pilots flying these kind of jobs, if they cancel flight at the hint of ice they're out of the job in a hurry.
Gotta build those 1,500 hours to get an airline job. You know, the govt mandated 1,500 that makes airline flying safer. . . .
@@bobroberts2371 Yeah the irony! I wonder where a rookie will be a safer pilot, as part of a multi-crew environment flying with experienced captains, or all alone in a Grand Caravan flying IFR at night in a snow storm? Gotta be the latter one, sincerely The Government!
That final plunge is chilling
I'm retired ATC and I even worked at KBUR in the tower and TRACON; the night time operations were loaded with these flights hauling cancelled checks in my day. I had the same thing at my next facility. What struck me odd is that these pilots flew in just about anything. I was told they were under a lot of pressure to do things that weren't safe. I once heard a joke about a check runner pilot who was looking at the weather info. A manager asked him what he was doing? The pilot responded, "I'm checking the weather." The manager then said, "Why, you're going anyway!"
A... net?
The manager ain’t flying the plane….it is the pilot’s decision…..to be buried at an old age…..than to be buried with his mistake
After this kind of videos, I always wonder what impact it has on the ATC/controllers. It seems hard to sit there helping them out one minute and next minute you realise someone you just talked to crashed. While you're not the one flying it must be frustrating to sit there while you can't do much.
I was based at an airport where a cancelled check pilot would occasionally fly his twin into late at night, even in scooch weather. He would refuel, and I would talk with him a bit. Young guy, with a pretty cool demeanor. I was a naval aviator still flying in the Reserves (USMC) at the time, with my ATP, CFII, Type Rated. The guy was building his time, and I was totally impressed with his airmanship as he took off into the night. I thought to myself, "where do we get such men?" LOL. Still remember that guy and his old twin and it was almost 30 years ago.
911 stopped the canceled check gigs, I believe.
RIP young aviator. Juan, your production quality is really getting outstanding.
I can hear @ProbableCause-DanGryder saying:
"NIGHT
IMC
TERRAIN
ICING
On a particular flight, choose one
Sometimes, choose none"
How very sad to hear that young pilot's voice as he thought he had it all under control. The sudden loss in seconds is staggering.
Devastating and heartbreaking. If one junior pilot learns something from this video, then Juan's advice is worth a pilot's weight in gold. Thank you, Juan!
My wife mentioned that I was mirroring your comments as you were speaking. “Take the vectors” “accept the lower”…turn that Fn autopilot off and fly the airplane. Back in the eighties lots of young commuter pilots were getting their asses kicked daily flying small turboprop twins in the northeast corridor and in the southern states without autopilots…..in all that spring and summer convective weather. These guys learned quickly how to fly in weather without autopilots. Later in their careers these same guys became great jet pilots at our 121 carriers. It was the best crop of young pilots the airlines have ever had access to hire. A professional pilot has to have enough experience to know when he’s getting in over his head, and or behind the aircraft as in this case…..Young guy…very sad.
I’m very glad to have this channel, I’ve been trying to get more info on this accident, as I’m less than 6 miles from the crash site.
I’m not trying to create controversy here, I just want to add some info.
Multiple residents in close proximity to the crash reported hearing engine failure prior to the “bright red flash”. I don’t know if that info lends itself to the icing theory, or possibly an actual engine failure.
Also, not that I’m casting dispersions at anyone, but multiple news media articles cited the SBSD as stating they were unable to provided air support due to the weather. I was working outside when this crash occurred, and ironically, was texting a family member about how cold the rain felt at that very moment. And immediately after that text, the SBSD heli overflew me at low altitude, presumably headed back to their pad at SBD.
I made the comment in my text conversation that the “Ghetto Bird” was out n about, typical for a Saturday night in “Slum Bernarghetto”. My point is, their Air Unit was in operation at the time of the crash, not “unable to fly due to weather”, as has been reported.
From what you stated about the "SBSD" helicopter not flying or not providing support sound consistent with this video and the television report. You didn't state the elevation of your home. I will assume that you are at a lower elevation than the crash site. It is possible or maybe even likely that the helicopter flew low over your home due to icing conditions at higher elevation. In the video Juan covered how temperatures drop as elevation increase. In truth he talked about the drop in wet bulb not dry bulb. But the effects is similar. It sounds like the helicopter simply couldn't safely reach the crash site due to icing at the higher elevation of the crash site.
I will not comment on the reports of engine failure and a bright red flash. Hopefully the NTSB final report will comment on this information.
If I board a plane and get a peek in the cockpit and see Juan at the helm, I aint worried about a damn thing.
peek
@@Nickbaldeagle02 duly noted.
Richard McSpadden Jr.
I feel your frustration, no matter what happens you are saving lives pilots that watch your channel may finally become aware of the dangers you point out. I was lucky to have my very first Instructor would point out problems ,scenarios, what if's all the time while flying with him and at my debriefing and at time most had no bearing on task at hand my private, but it did have a positive later in my training four or five Instuctors down the road and I realized how fortunate I was to have that kind of a instuctor to start my training. Let me say this my first flight you know it introductory flight Fullerton California I'm in the left we climb maybe 200 agl, he looks at me and says if motor stops where am I going to but this plane man I was just tickle pink to be flying "What the F--K are talking about" I said how about that street not a good choice he explained later "how about on top of those warehouse straight ahead" what great man thank you Bob from the bottom of my heart.
Thanks Juan. Condolences to his family and friends.
Your coverage, reporting, and commentary are superb, Juan. Thanks for all you do and are in promoting aviation and safety!
RIP pilot.
Thx Juan for covering this unfortunate acvident.
Juan, your warning to young pilots about using the auto pilot in icing conditions is the biggest community service announcement you can do and the best thing you could do for our flying community. Solid gold. Thank you.
Nice moment of silence at 10:03. RIP. Great analysis and advice.
Excellent facts on how icing conditions and icing reports affect diferent type of airplanes/aircraft! GREAT WORK!
👍 JUAN BROWN 👍
I grew up and was based at SMO
Cajun and Banning passes were our route in and out of the LA Basin to the east southeast in our 172 and 182
Both can be radical at times
We had alot of respect coming and going through there anytime much less with a major storm system in the area
RIP To this poor guy
True, Bob. I’m ex RAAF (Australia). It didn’t matter how automated your systems were, it was always drummed into that true pilots use their hands, feet,and eyes. Unfortunately, I think even in the airline industry today, pilots are becoming airborne computer operators and forgetting how to fly.
Not much different to blurring reality between a flight simulator and real world. If they don't get enough hands on flying experience and trouble solving experience it does not create a fully rounded and competent airline pilot.
Yikes. Amazing how fast it can happen. RIP. Thanks for yet another great explanation, Juan.
That show is called “Seconds From Disaster” for a reason. My very first time spawning in a flight simulator made me realise that it’s not clickbait.
Thank you Juan.
I live in the San Joaquin Valley. This seems like such a short, simple flight especially for such a capable aircraft. What a sad affair.
Excellent report.
Anyone who must depend on the autopilot in IMC has no business flying in IMC. Autopilots can kick off in turbulence or stop working at any time. The mental transition from 'observing' the AP fly the plane to having to hand fly in IMC can be traumatic and confusing. If you start pressing buttons to try and make the AP do what you want it's all over.
The irony of this tragedy is that many airlines have already stopped hiring. The economy is slowing down. Don't rush your training!
Ice is a tricky thing. I was 15 south of Mid Continent in Wichita and needed to fly 10 minutes to get there. I took off and once around the pattern in clear icing. Took the 172 into a hot Hanger after landing. I picked up about an inch of clear ice in that 10 minutes. I filed IFR and made the flight from Strother to Mid Continent. It took about 15 minutes. On the ILS I break out at just above minimums. Fire trucks all over the airport. I asked why because I didn't declair an emergency. A C-340 that was out flying approaches over heated an engine from ice blocking the cowl flaps. He was the mayday behind me!! My 172 was quite the ice cube when I landed. Ice is very dangerous if you are using an auto pilot!! I was bringing the 172 back to Portland but not that day! I put the 172 into a Cessna hanger for the night and flew out in snow the next morning. Ferrying new planes was loads of fun in mid winter! ERAU 80 CFIA&I ret.
A Cessna will not fly with an inch of ice. Get real man!
Kristen is dreaming........That crappy little plane will not carry that much ice.........Paul
@@paulholterhaus7084 Add to that she intentionally flew into it.. Ridiculous.
No clue about the C-340 Mayday-Mayday-Mayday? Were they on another channel or what? Seems odd.
I can’t believe how many times this has happened
Reminds me of the winward side of O’Ahu, Hawaii. A traffic pilot lost his life when he attempted to go over the mountains towards the leeward (Honolulu) side, cutting across the island.
Thank you for the video. This was my cousin. You did a great job explaining this. He is extremely loved by all who knew him ♥️
*🙏🏻Rest Is Peace🕊*
*the Pilot*
Prayers and Best Wishes
to his Family
Sad analysis, but excellent as ever, sir. I really appreciate the input of all of y'all experienced pilots.
My condolences. Thank you for posting Juan: I fly a turboprop and this is another sobering accident
My condolences
Great advice for all professionals - take help when offered -
When vectors are offered….ATC might know “something” the pilot might be missing…
There needs to be more plain commands,like "Pilot,turn your autopilot off now,you are icing"
Excellent reporting in a tough situation Juan.
Nasty, nasty icing in such short order.
We flew in some of that system yesterday (14th) from VNY to TRM in a Challenger 350 and got our a$$es kicked in that turbulence. Even with the strong wing/engine anti-ice on, we still got the ICE DETECTED cas message several times during the descent with low power settings. That's in a very capable airplane with no issues, but I can't imagine trying to pop ice off the leading edges with boots. The Commanders are normally pretty good ice handlers. Makes me wonder if he had trouble with the deice system and didn't know since the autopilot was engaged.
I fly the commander single pilot IFR and contrary to a lot of opinions in the comments find it to be a relatively easy plane to fly, I came from caravans which I also flew in icing/single pilot IFR in Alaska. I find this accident most interesting because about two weeks ago I was flying in forecasted light to mod and all was well till I was crossing one final row of mountains before starting down on the approach where I saw a very rapid accumulation that was not going to be sustainable for long in fact I lost about 10 knots of airspeed for the same power setting very rapidly and I was doing everything "right" I was popping my boots had my anti-ice systems all hot. Fortunately I started my descent (would of needed to request for one even if it wasn't about to shoot the approach) and nice above freezing air was only a few thousand feet below me so I melted it all off before an uneventful landing. Icing is no joke but the plane as evident by my experience and others posting can pack on a significant amount and keep trucking which tells me one a few things. 1) Perhaps the pilot was over confident in the aircraft's ability to fly in ice but the uncertainty and lack of confidence on the radio suggests otherwise. 2) This was a very severe build up or 3) the boots malfunctioned. When I was in Alaska a friend of mine had one of his tail boots inop unbeknownst to him in the caravan until he went to land and the plane pancaked onto the runway and he got out saw his wings clear one tail boot clear and the other contaminated. There isn't an easy way to identify if they are all properly functional considering they don't work with the engines off and you are unable to see your tail in these mid sized aircraft. The only instrumentation is a single gauge that the entire system is linked to. Furthermore not too long ago while flying the commander the timer was malfunctioning for the "auto" position on the boots which is supposed to inflate for 6 seconds and deflate except in my case they weren't actually deflating and were stuck inflated. It required finding and popping the proper breaker while flying in bumpy icy clouds in the middle of the night to get them to actually contract and blow off the ice. These are just some of my thoughts as someone with experience with this aircraft.
My guess is that his increased workload had him temporarily take one of his hands off the controls to deal with something else and it was at that exact moment that it disengaged. He probably didn't expect it to suddenly (and without any warning) turn off and have to manually fly it. :(
What a shame, sounded like this pilot could fly from his radio transmissions, but we also lost a beautiful Aero Commander 1000, the last model of the 681-695 turboprop Commander series, a fantastic airplane that is not manufactured since 1986. One of my favorite airplanes. 300 kts, 3,000 fpm, 35,000 ceiling and about 2,000 miles. What a fabulous performer, never mind its movie star looks and great handling. As to Bob Denny below, I flew a Baron 58TC for a thousand hours, it was certified FIKI. The only time I operated the boots was during the annual. I made it a point of never having "gottagetthereitis." Once on a trip from LIT to WHP, I stopped in ABQ and let SWA fly the rest of the way. I rather "Be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than being in the air wishing I was on the ground."
A nice watch and nearly-new t-shirt from the Gap were also lost in this accident. So sad. 🤷♂️
I’m mocking you, but it’s all in good fun. No real disrespect intended.
@@lebojay Jay, I get it, and yes we lost probably a good guy, certainly competent and professional by his radio transmissions. But the problem is we can always get another nice watch, Rolex, Breitling, Tissot, Tag, Apple or whatever and certainly another t-shirt. But there are no more turbine Commanders being made, as there are no more V-tails, straight tails, Meyers 200D, Comanches, C310 etc. That may sound harsh, but we need to preserve these aircraft as owners as we are essentially caretakers.
I understand, no disrespect, but you helped make a point.
@@larryweitzman5163 That’s fair. 🍻
My dad was a retired AF Fighter Pilot, he always preached, watch the weather and if you ever got into weather unexpectedly turn around, or no auto pilot hand fly so you can feel the airplane. He explained as you don’t use your cars cruise control in traffic either. You never ever need to fly if the weather does look good. Spent A LOT of time in small FOBs after a fuel stop because my dad always checked the weather during all fuel stops because it always changes, this was before all in stuff instruments now. Just a shame this accident happened when it was so avoidable. I think newer pilots don’t have enough respect for flying. Like Mike Patty said, 3 strikes, any one of them is a no go. Flying is a beautiful experience and a sense of freedom, but man respect experience and freedom cuz given the chance it will kill ya.
AF pilot---good to great military training. Live by "whatever can happen, will happen" So be ready and be alert with situational awareness. From an old Navy aviator. Fly Navy!
Great summery Juan! Thanks a lot.
I earned my pilot ratings in the LA Basin and have flown over much of southern California. I know Cajon Pass and that area well. Ice has always scared me and I stay away with a passion.
Wow. When the icing reached the "nope, not flying" condition, it's amazing how fast it all went south. RIP, pilot.
I’m watching this video while knocking out some studying on Sheppard for my IFR written and I’m covering questions pertaining to icing conditions and autopilot. A bit freaky they popped up at this second… Rest in Peace