As in several other comments, I think the powder is burned before the bullet is leaving the barrel. What I didn't see others mention, is that usually results in a very accurate load. That's why a lot of old target rifles had 24" to 30" barrels on them. It allowed some of the harmonics to settle down before the bullet exits the barrel. I'm anxious to see some of the targets from this load. Very impressed with your results from the pistol!
Deminishing returns. Faster powder (smokeless) helps with igniting all powder more completely and suddenly which explains the bump in performance in the revolver, but when there is 4 times as much barrel it isn’t necessarily as much of an advantage. I think it’s less like a mixture of powders and more like a supercharged primer.
I am glad I found this channel. The shorts really are paying off when it comes to new, hopefully like-minded viewers. Ready to see that 100k line crossed.
My hypothesis is that it is burning relatively speaking fast enough to get a full burn. In the rifle you are getting a full burn prior to the bullet leaving the barrel and possibly possibly slowing down.
That was my thought as well. The powder has consumed itself, expended all of its energy n as the pressure curve is falling the rest of the barrel is creating drag. I dont know, thats just my reloaders guess at first glance
At at least as far as your getting a much higher velocity gain in the pistol because the smokeless is helping the BP burn more completely in the short barrel while the gains are not so great in the longer barrel of the rifle because it is already allowing for more complete combustion of the BP
Very much enjoy your clips. Years ago I loaded duplex BPRC with slow rifle powder (3031 imr) in a 10%to full charge BP loads (GOEX) simply to keep a clean bore for repeated shots as long as I cared to shoot. Mine were never intended for more power as I usually shot vintage firearms and wanted to preserve the gun. In Alaska I hunted with my duplex loads and the cleanliness for immediate reloads was paramount to saving ones butt at times. Anyhow keep up the good work and I'll keep watching. Nope don't want to "go make my own damn video" 😂
In physics, I often observed in the last year as I started studying Chemistry, that in most real world applications you wont see a linear relation between two dimensions across your whole measurement. You can often observe a proportional relationship within a certain range and in that range you can just use your linear model and expect to observe the results you calculate, beyond that range you cannot make any predictions. What I hypothesize is that at least one rate of change during the firing process (maybe the powder burning itself, or the Volume or temperature) is exponential or logarithmic so that the rate at which pressure is built or the maximum pressure is achieved isn't quite linear which isn't as obvious for shorter barrel lenghts but at some point the deviation from linear is greater than the standard error.
extremely compelling! very grateful to you and your crew for doing the heavy lifting for us so we can get the idea mills churning even more!! maybe a cosrser granulation of BP in the rigle duplex would yeold different results with the longer barrel?
So I am currently researching how to make late 18th early 19th century French powder and I came across a section on making brown powder like the French did during the revolution when they invaded Great Britain (and failed miserably) and they said they used straw for charcoal just food for thought in case you might be looking into making some trashy brown powder in the future lol
I think it's a combination of the straw and the ratio of which the components are mixed in (79% niter, 3% sulfur and 18% charcoal) which evidently worked great for artillery. Not so much for muskets that and the fact that they were using Canon powder instead of the standard musket powder (1F) in their paper cartridges and Also in 1793 one of their biggest powder mills in France mysteriously exploded and they lost access to their roller presses for several years so it was also non-compressed@@Everythingblackpowder
Very impressive results! I use 4227 at 12% max and have never had any unburned powder problems, I think the smoke trails were probably burning over powder wads or burning lube, I sometimes get tracer trails all the way to the target using full smokeless loads from wad/lube. Stay safe! Chris B.
My guess and just a guess is that the red-dot being a fast burning powder is really helping to overcome the launch velocity in the bisley. The longer barrel, however, the initial gain of the red-dot starter is being overcome by friction from the longer bearing surface. I'm going to try some with Unique, because I have many pounds of that. lol
Outstanding video. I love seeing other shooters delving into the vagaries of duplex loading. All of my experience has been in the .45-70, .45-90, .45-100, and .40-70 Sharps straight. All significantly longer rifle cases. I've never tried it in any revolver rounds, although most of my .45 Colt shooting is done with black powder. As you have discovered, the chief advantage is just how relatively "clean" they shoot. This can be an advantage in the field when hunting. After all, who is going to blow tube or wipe their single shots when after game? And isn't it nice to get more than a couple of accurate shots out of a lever gun, without accuracy going to hell even before the magazine is empty? Now that you have mentioned it, I can see the same advantages in the revolver. With modern smokeless era Colts being fitted somewhat tighter than the black powder era guns, their cylinders tend to start to drag and tie up after a few cylinders full. I can see where duplex loads would help with that. Just one thing to make clear, although I'm sure you already know this (this is for the benefit of your faithful viewers). Duplex loads do not relieve us of the chore of cleaning our guns, and our cartridge cases, just as if we had used straight black powder. We are still faced with all of those issues. Duplexing only serves to make our time at the range a little less messy. Once we get home, the same cleaning procedures we suffer with straight black are still a requirement.
This is a interesting subject and want to get to know more about it. My hypothesis is that the black powder being a fast flash powder, and the Red Dot being more of a slow burning powder is why we see the performance being quite good in the revolver. And because the rifle has an extended time in the barrel, it has time to get its full burning potential out of the powder. Therefore if a Guy is could try shooting a gun of variable lengths. He could figure out exactly what the optimum length would be for a particular load. I like your idea of putting the card or wad behind the bullet so as to advert the leading of your barrel. I have learned a lot about Black powder from watching your channel. Cheers Buddy!
The possible answer comparing the revolver against the rifle is that in straight black powder the revolver is not able to burn all the powder but when you add red dot you are getting better combustion of the black powder. In the rifle there is less difference because with the longer barrel you have time to burn all the black powder and when you add smokeless you get a small increase due to the smokeless contribution
I don't know what the significance of it will be, but its important to know that smokeless and BP burn fundamentally differently. burning BP spreads through the powder stack by hot particles blowing off the surface of one grain and igniting the next. Smokeless burns by the hot hot gasses rushing through the case. Having those gasses running through the case and not being choked by crumpling powder or having to play combustion ping-pong to light all the powder means its all lighting at once and burning together. I bet you could see huge improvements in something like 45-70 (or maybe 45-100) if you had been using 3f powder, where the powder stack is "tall"/"long" compared to the size of the grains. If you have a gun that can handle some extra pressure, That's what I would try next. edit: also you could try 1f, 2f, 3f, 4f powder in said .45-70 and see if there is a difference in the velocities. PPS: I bet slow powder works worst and fast powder works better. PPPS: Actually this is all coming together in my mind. What the fast powder is doing is heating up the case. Its burning super fast and heating the whole case up because its pressurizing it. Its like a fire piston except instead of trying to make the air's volume smaller, you are cramming a bunch more air (or in this case gasses from the combustion of the smokeless powder) into the piston and its being held more or less in the same volume so it gets very very hot. That is likely the mechanism that is needed to light and burn all the powder. I wish I was home so I could try this. I've got an 1895 and reload it, but I am traveling until April. Heres what the test would look like: If this is true, you should get pretty much the same velocity with all powder types in a rifle or pistol (as in there will be a rifle velocity and a pistol velocity and it won't be different using 1f or 4f).
My uneducated guess is that in the revolver the addition of the smokeless powder and the faster burn get the bullet up to speed with a more complete burn in the limited length of the revolver while in the rifle the addition of the smokeless there’s not as much added velocity because the rifle gets a more complete burn to begin with.
OH, I have been going to make this comment for a while now. It's great how you always smirk at the end of each video when you say "make your own damned video" ! :): ) :)
Maybe the red dot ignited a lot more of the bp in a shorter time making it burn more of it before exiting the short barrel. With the rifle length barrel, more of the bp is given a chance to ignite before the bullet leaves in a standard bp load
The addition of smokeless powder to black powder was/is to speed up the combustion of the black. Going to a slower powder wont be a great idea, you want a faster pistol powder to flash the black as fast as possible. The reason duplex loads are working better in the pistol is that black likes a longer barrel to burn completely and the small charge of smokeless is helping it combust much faster. The reason the rifle wasn't seeing proportionate gains is that it had 24'' to make use of the black in the first place so it wasn't as critical to its success as the 4-5/8 ruger. The "tracer" coming off the 303 I'm wondering if it wasnt your cardstock or else bullet lube flying off. That one as me scratching my head.
Jake I have no idea what is happening in the combustion chamber and can offer no assistance in that regard. But I would like to give you three more suggestions for wood for making charcoal 1. Bamboo 2. Basswood 3. Paulownia, both Basswood and Paulownia are very light and have almost no resins or gums in them and Bamboo of course is a type of grass. It could be very interesting.
Interesting, I assumed the exact opposite. I've read that during the second world war 20 mm Borsig cases often had little baggies of black powder to aid in the ignition of the smokeless main propellant charge.
I have been thinking about this for a while and consider I have a reasonably good reason for your surprise with .45 Colt Duplex velocity gains in Revolver versus Rifle loads / reloads… In your rifle the 3f black powder has pretty much completely burned through even in the standard black powder loads and your small(ish) velocity increase with the duplex load is down to the slightly higher pressures due to the nitro powder content. Where your short(ish) barrelled revolver is concerned however, the initial pure b.p. loads are not consuming all of that powder fully (or at least it isn’t being able to give the full pressure of it burning completely) before the projectile has left the barrel. With the Duplex Load the increase in pressures (and temperatures) in the cartridges is burning up MORE of the available black powder that isn’t being burnt up completely in the b.p. only loads, and that higher temp is giving you more immediate pressure because of this behind the bullets, hence higher velocities…. The higher pressure &?temps in particular in your Duplex Loadings is the Key here I feel….
Here is a thought. In a long barrel, the burn rate (explosions) inside the barrel cancel each other out to some degree due to the burn rate difference from one to the other. Where in the short barrel the explosions complement each other before they can have a negative effect. Hence the rate of burn on variety of smokeless powder can be tested in conjunction with your black powder to see if you can sequence the explosion frequency to compound the explosion effect to that particular barrel length.
Just a theory, but one based in the timing calc we all do as reloaders. Bigger heat kernel faster, heavy for caliber holding ignition just a touch longer. This will support a faster burn, not necessarily a longer one. At least you weren't getting 950 from the carbine. That would be lead city.
Very interesting! Although I’m gonna be thinking on this for a while, being the amateur chemist I am, I wonder if certain smokeless powders are oxygen positive or negative when they decompose? Out of the rifle, the idea of potentially increasing the burn speed of the good ol stuff with excess oxygen around provided by the smokeless, thus consuming the entire charge prematurely and hampering its exodus to the outside world…..? Or maybe weighing the black by volume and the smokeless by weight?😂😂😂 ya I just had to throw that in again. Dang it, gonna make me start screwing around with duplex loads now and I hardly have time to tie my shoes anymore. Great job! Keep it up! By the way…… the only person allowed to use the word, “significant,” when comparing velocities is Paul Harrell😁
It would be interesting to see this with different bullet to powder ratios, considering this was 40 to 300 and the previous was 50 to 200 ish it could be moving the bullet early (based on smokeless to bullet ratio) and making the black powder burn better both decreasing and increasing velocity
My guess is that it has something to do with the different pressure curves of smokeless versus black powder. Smokeless (like most explosives) burns faster the higher the pressure (which comes from confinement). Black powder, almost uniquely, does not. So, when you put black powder over smokeless in a short barrel, the smokeless (which burns first) creates an initial spike in pressure and a sharp initial impulse. This gets you a substantial performance gain in a short barrel, but the effect is less pronounced in a long barrel (where you want a slower ramp-up in burn). My idea also comes with a simple way to test it - load the smokeless over the black powder instead. This should then shift the pressure spike to later in the burn (but also lower the total pressure, as the smokeless is less confined), resulting in less performance out of the revolver and equivalent or better performance out of the rifle.
Defligration velocity. The smokeless burns faster than the black powder and moves the pistol bullet faster. However, the rifle, with the extra barrel length, can only benefit marginally from the initial higher speed burning 🔥
It would be cool to see how slower burning rifle powders would work in a rifle. The higher pressure of that smokeless may be positively effecting the cleaning
Black Powder has a faster flame speed than smokeless hence its use in artillery shells and naval powder bags. It’s not unburned powder flying downrange.
Great video jake. Man I would love to see what going on with pressure and burn rate. One of these days love to get one of those Extremely fast slow motion cameras. I would love to see what's going on with these duplex loads
So would you like to hear my theory on the rifle? Ah I guess I should have viewed the entire video first, as you asked. So at the danger of being incorrect here's my thoughts. To start with I will refer back to the percussion cap versus the modern day center fire primer heat/energy output.. so in the case of red dot it is an easy to light higher energy fast burning powder. Again 3 f also easy lite, and 30 grains max load. What I suspect is happening is complete consumption of powder with in the 7-10" range. Losing to the lack of expanding gases and friction in the What think you said was a 24" barrel. It is a high energy starter. Again I could be sticking my neck here a bit but that's my thoughts. Now a way to test it is a follow up with test loads of 2, 1.5, and 1 fg, but could be minimal change due to the lack of volume/weight of bp. Great pistol load ! Now on a different subject I took possession of my 45-55 walker this week. So it is a uberti/ kirst conversion. It one of three platforms I have chambered for it. The walker bp only, thompson center contender 10" I will load similarly to my old 12" 45-70. And an 18" 12ga to 45-55 walker barrel sleeve. The case is a .460 smith and wesson magnum case shortened by .030. I too think Jeremy's results were disappointing, however I do think I can do better. That's to be seen. The bullet of choice is going to be the same 270+ grain Mukwa bullet Jeremy tested. Mountain man
The answer to your question; why proportionally better performance in short vs long barrel? Alliant is a double based powder. That is a mixture of stabilized nitroglycerin and nitrocellulose. Red dot should be about 20% nitroglycerin. By contrast bullseye is about 40%. And 2400 is maybe 4%. I’ve not looked at an MSDS in years. So this from memory. And since the sale of Alliant formulations may have changed. Interior ballistic theory. Double based powders are in essence “duplex” concoctions from the factory. While single based are just that, only nitrocellulose. Roughly speaking nitroglycerine determines relative “burn rate” or speed of the powder. The more nitroglycerin the faster the powder. Thus bullseye is faster than red dot which is faster than 2400. Burn flame front progression of nitroglycerin is a function of volumetric containment. The higher the instantaneous containment the faster the flame front progression. So. You have in essence concocted a triplex load. The 20-80 mix of nitroglycerine-nitrocellulose in the red dot. Under your black powder charge. Under a heavier than typical bullet. I’d suspect that the nitroglycerin in that charge is basically consumed before the bullet even move from the case. With resultant case head pressures which are high, but not excessive. Then the nitrocellulose and black powder burn as the bullet moves from the case and down the barrel. With resultant increasing volume as the burn continues. I’d suspect that the black powder provides the bulk of the energy in what is essentially a secondary burn in the barrel. So basically you seem to have stumbled upon a very efficient concoction suited to a shorter barrel. As opposed to the longer barrel. If you had an intermediate barrel length, say 7-8 inches, you might be able to confirm this with your chronograph. Keep in mind your dealing with some complex interior ballistics of pressure and expanding volume as it effects the burn characteristics of three disparate compounds. But your only method of measure is the velocity produced in the external ballistic. Put that load on target and you add precision from the terminal ballistic to your analysis. Theoretically, as much as I understand this subject, using something like bullseye should push observed “efficiency” even more toward the short barrel…. But you may also begin to see signs of excess pressure. As Elmer did testing the molecular integrity of the steels in his revolver cylinders upon occasion. Do be careful. I find myself looking forward to you next experiment. Please don’t thwart my entertainment by spontaneous disassembly. Fox out
So red dot is pistol powder because how fast it burns under pressure. You literally blow your load in faster. There is a magic sweet spot for matching the speed a powder burns to barrel length. The red dot will be done building pressure in under 10" of bullet bump. Most rifles reloading manuals, at least for the cartridges I load like 7mm mag 30/30 444 243 all publish data and pressure from a 20 inch barrel and provide rifle powders. It's a little confusing to think of using a "slower" powder to increase velocity but that's what is happening. The longer you can keep 50,000 psi pushing a bullet down a barrel the faster it exits the muzzel. Hodgedon web site has a powder burn rate chart listed. Curiosity has me wondering if the rifle 45 colt would have been better if red dot was loaded on top of 3f. Maybe it would burn a little later?
Love the vid. No chickens around here. We have to remember primers and most other flatten at a certain pressure not flatten when over pressure. We get used to cartridges having almost the same peak pressures. Most pistol cartridges max pressures wont flatten at all.
what's probably going on is the smokeless is giving a more complete ignition on the blackpowder over just the primer giving you a pressure boost from a more complete powder burn in the shorter barrel kicking the velocity up where the rifle barrel the volume of the barrel length is canceling out the boost!
Very interesting results, and method in general. You’ve caught my interest with this, and I’m gonna read into it some more. Sizing those 45/70 bullets down has my interest for general loading. Looks like it has a pretty wide meplat, so I’m curious now how well they do over smokeless powder. Good stuff!
Maybe The extra barrel length went beyond the point of diminishing returns with the given case volume. I have observed the same thing with my Ruger Single Seven revolvers. It seems like the 5 1/2 inch barrel gives me a higher velocity than the 7 1/2 inch with the same load in .327 FM. I have some chronograph testing to do after the weather breaks at my range. Slower powder?
Maybe the difference between the two is the rate of burn? The black powder could be getting burned up differently in a shorter barrel vs a longer one. All because of the smokeless powder addition acts as a propellant and not an explosive like black powder.
If we think in terms of the Carnot cycle, I still intuit that the initial bullet velocity is offset by the lower compression later in the combustion process. If we were to look at a graph of pressure behind the bullet over time, I'm guessing a pure BP or smokeless load would ideally be linear, whereas these duplex loads would have a curve or "knee" where pressure drops off. Kind of like how an Atkinson cycle engine has dropped compression for more fuel efficiency but less torque. Also, I'm really curious about rocket candy.
This one is easy. It's safe to say the .45 colt is operating at normal pistol pressure with this load. Well, most standard pressure .45 colt loads only get 1200 ish FPS out of a 20 inch barrel, regardless of what powder or combination thereof is used. The primary reason is barrel friction. If you can get your hands on Quickload and setup long barrel friction, you can see the how the velocity down the barrel is not a straight line. It curves and even starts to droop toward the end. The secondary reason is caliber size interacts with gas expansion. Basically, as the bullet moves down the barrel, the area the gas has to expand into increases. This expansion reduces its pressure. You need a minimum amount of pressure behind the bullet in order to overcome the friction of the barrel. Due to how geometry works, when you double the size of a circle, its area quadruples. So a big bore like .44 doesn't need twice as much gas behind it as a .22, it needs 4 times as much gas to maintain that pressure. .45 colt just can't stuff enough powder inside it to produce enough gas to maintain enough pressure to get a bullet down a 20 inch barrel before it starts losing speed. You could chop 10 inches off that barrel and lose no FPS at all.
This duplex formula can be very interesting for those who want to save on smokeless powder, because it becomes difficult to find it as you want at a good price (shortage) Bp is also becoming very expensive Anyone who makes their own low-cost BP will find what they’re looking for. in addition he will clean his barrel less often I believe the duplex method is used in some mortars and cannons it may be possible to be able to fine-tune the output speed more easily. 1 primer stage 2 small stage smokeless powder 3 large stage black power would it be in the order of liveliness? this is all very interesting your channel more watched than television
Fast powders like red dot will show better velocity performance in a short barrel because they burn fast and complete before exit. Slower powders will preform better than faster powders in long barrels because the barrel gives them time to complete burn before exit.
My theory on why you are getting diminished gains in the rifle is that, the longer bearing surface of the 300 grain bullet is affected by the longer barrel on the rifle but not so on the shorter barrel of the revolver. The longer barrel is placing more drag on the bullet. It's a theory.
I think you may be getting "barrel drag" with a 24 inch barrel. Drag is where the powder has burnt out completely and the bullet is slowing down from friction. You may see a better gain out of pistol cartridges in a 16 or 18 inch just based on powder capacity. Please keep testing to see if I'm right or wrong.
I use flat based bullets wherever possible I find I have significant more leading with bevel based and it doesn't seem to matter what lube gets used. It would be interesting to see the results in a smaller capacity case like a 38 special. As for the velocity spread that is definitely something that is odd. Definitely scrolling the comments to see everyone's theories
The blackpowder should burn almost instantaneously. You either have burning impurities in your charcoal or you’re seeing burning fragments of your card wad.
In the revolver you light up the Black Powder and Quickly set of by the Black. That is why you wind up with the powder almost consumed before the end of the barrel. In the Rifle you have burned the Powder and you have several more inches of barrel left for it (the bullet) to travel and slow slightly. At least that is what I have seen.
I believe ( with zero evidence of proof ) that it is a case of diminishing return just based on your results. Typically rounds that perform better in rifles than in pistols/ revolvers do so because they don't reach their full potential in the short barrel and they do in the longer barrel. In this instance, it seems that while there is improvement in both short and long barrels, the burn is so fast and efficient that it can do so in the short barrel. In other words, I believe that you are seeing less improvement in the longer barrel simply because the load isn't that much more powerful, just faster at reaching full potential and therefore showing larger gains in the short barrel because the long barrel already provides more time for the black powder only loads to max out as well. The smokeless is helping get it done quicker but not necessarily much more powerfully. Like 1/8 mile vs 1/4 mile drag racing. Lowers gears will help in 1/8 but can cause you to max out too soon in 1/4. Long winded explanation of my opinion but there you have it. THANKS for all that you do and for all of your content.
I wish I had the knowledge to make an an informed comment about the pressures and burn speed but alas, I do not. I would be interested in knowing if blending the two powders would affect the speed. I noticed that the smokeless was on the bottom, with the black powder added to the top.
Maybe its just simply that the length of barrel allows complete burn of the black powder, and that whether it's duplex or straight, it's all burned at the same time, and that the duplex with the length of barrel just doesn't add. The smokeless has more to offer in a shorter barrel?
Sorry if this is a dumb question but here it is: Could a person mix smokeless powder and black powder in a flintlock muzzleloader? Could this combination decrease the fouling often experienced with GOEX or Schuetzen powders? By the by, the handgun load you assembled looked like it packed a serious punch. Thank you for the great videos.
To me it's simple. Even though BP is a constant rate burn, in the revolver you're still not likely getting a complete burn. The 3.5grs of RD is aiding in giving you a complete burn and now you're seeing the increase in velocity. In the rifle you're going to get 100% burn no matter what, so the 3.5grs of RD is probably not going to give you much of an increase in velocity. Not anymore that can't be explained by a simple increase, or decrease in ambient temperature.
I you want to check unburned powder you can try shooting through a hole throw multiple sheets of white paper glued to cardboard. See what kind of gunk sticks to the sheets.
My random and completely uniformed speculation. So the theory behind duplex is that the smokeless speeds up the combustion of the black powder right? So in a short barrel where you’re never going to get complete combustion (unless you’re using a really fast smokeless pistol powder) you’re seeing a significant gain. Meanwhile in a long barrel that’s less a factor since there is so much more time for complete progression. Additionally since you’re using a 1894 cb with an extra long barrel you’re probably seeing some slowing from friction after the powder is completely burnt. I don’t reload 45 colt, but I’d expect slower speeds from a 24” barrel than an 18.5 in 357 for instance because all the powders I use are burnt in the first 14-18 inches max. If I were to load a 357 mag with something like titegroup I wouldn’t expect more velocity from a rifle than say an 8” pistol. Just a wild speculation.
Using your duplex load you are getting more velocity with a 300 grain bullet and 30 grains of black than you would expect to get with a straight 40 grain black load with a 250 grain bullet.
Here’s a question for you, where can you find a good black powder pistol? I’ve looked, and most of the large manufacturers are sold out! I enjoy shooting my rifle when I find the time, but have never owned a revolver. I don’t care for the long barreled ones. By the way, I’m also scratching my head about the rifle, pistol difference in velocity!
Interesting concept. I would love to see this same test with a "magnum" powder. Something like HS6. 4227 or 296. Or if the low charge ball powder thing is to unknown .....maybe something like 2400?
Had another thought. I wonder if you'd get similar results from a totally different rifle. Different twist and different length of barrel. And have you slugged the bore on the marlin? Barrels can behave differently. As far as speed and accuracy
SHITFAR, That's a thumper right there. I'll load them up for the shear fact that its cleaner. I'm going to try a Trail boss / Black duplex. As always great video Gentlemen, when I get my notification that Everything BP is premiering soon, its HIGH on the priority list to watch ASAP.
@@deerslayer303B Trail Boss would not even be my last choice anywhere near black powder. It gets weird and psi spikes when used outside its very narrow usage window. It has not been manufactured for about 6 yrs now if I remember what Hodgden told me directly. It's standard case start load is 70% of space under bullet. In any case. No grains listed and NEVER compress. There has been a lot of confusion because it is loaded different from any other powder. I would be suprised if they ever made it again.
My first thought is that the cylinder gap may be messing with the numbers in an unexpected way. How exactly, i don't know, but it might be worth finding a single shot .45 colt pistol like a super Comanche or a Rossi brawler and testing if that gives any significant difference from the velocities of the Ruger. Any minor variance after that may be extrapolated to barrel drag, as I've seen mentioned in another comment, or a relatively unusual pressure curve as a result form the mixed load.
I am curious what would happen if you mixed the powders before you put them in the case. I kind of think what might be happening is that the smokeless powder is delaying the ignition of the black powder in the rifle but the cylinder gap in the revolver is somehow causing the black powder to ignite.
If you loaded it with 2F rather than 3F, you might get a higher velocity in the Marlin. You're likely running out of pressure loading with the faster burn rate in the longer barrel. It would be detrimental to the velocity of the pistol loads, though.
I suspect that the powder mix you had was burning fast and worked well in the pistol because of barrel length. me assumption as far as the rifle is concerned is the powder is not burning long enough to provide the velocity. so I mean a portion of the barrel is causing extra drag on the bullet because of the burn rate not being tailored to the barrel length.
Thanks for all you content. One quick question. I would like to purchase a flintlock. What would you recommend that is not a project gun? And doesn't cost multiple grands.. Call it a starter rifle. Thanks again.
Maybe the cleanliness Is caused by the expansive wave of the smokeless push the residue of the BP out of the barrel, the gain un speed in the revolver Is really impressive compares to the rifle, my theory with this duplex load in longer barrel behaves like that it's maybe because the initial speed of the bullet when smokeless hits pushes fast but then speed decreases after few noches inside barrel, then the second wave of pressure from the slower buen BP starts to increase again of the bullet in the last length of the barrel, if the duplex load can be loaded safely puting first BP and over that the smokeless to see how clean it burns and how speed behaves, compared to first smokeless then BP. Maybe another test mixing both, if it's safe mixing together. As always the best !
How is the load calculated? I have an original 1886 Winchester in 45-60. What books are available in this topic as well as a good step ny step process for making propellent?
Loading my 45 colt noticed HORNADY and some few others recommended large rifle primers, figured somthing to do with its black powder history? Primers dont fit as well though
The burning stuff that was coming from the .303 rounds, was most likely lube or an over powder wad. Shoot a few jacketed bullets through your rifle, if this goes away it is probably lube / wad. I have to agree with the reloaders that say you are burning up the powder part way down the barrel creating drag in the last few inches of the barrel. If you can find a rifle with a shorter barrel you could test this theory
Is their any leading in the rifle? If their is I would might say its losing velocity do to not enough lube and leading the bore. I have had unburnt powder in 357 mag with poor crimps and standerd non mag primers. Ive also had a problem in 22 hornet with the primer pushing the bullet out of the case and not ignite the powder fully. I had to use small pistol primers instead of small rifle primers with H110 and Lil gun powder. Could be completely different problem. Looking forward to any findings. Good luck 👍
Interesting to see a video on this subject. I've heard of Elmer Keith doing it with the 333 OKH wildcat (30-06 necked up version) with 275 or 300 grain bullets. i honestly feel his claim of 2300 fps is a little optimistic especially with a 300 grain bullet
Maybe there's not enough volume of expanded gas to keep the pressure up in the rifle in order to accelerate the projectile even more, but the higher pressure is enough to bump up the velocity in the pistol
![DDG & G Herbo - Nosey [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/I9Ra0Zc2NlQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Jake makes his channel the most interesting to watch and learn from
The TP experiment was top notch 😊
Thank you
As in several other comments, I think the powder is burned before the bullet is leaving the barrel. What I didn't see others mention, is that usually results in a very accurate load. That's why a lot of old target rifles had 24" to 30" barrels on them. It allowed some of the harmonics to settle down before the bullet exits the barrel. I'm anxious to see some of the targets from this load. Very impressed with your results from the pistol!
Keith was truly, one of a kind. Great info. Thanks.
Deminishing returns. Faster powder (smokeless) helps with igniting all powder more completely and suddenly which explains the bump in performance in the revolver, but when there is 4 times as much barrel it isn’t necessarily as much of an advantage. I think it’s less like a mixture of powders and more like a supercharged primer.
I am glad I found this channel. The shorts really are paying off when it comes to new, hopefully like-minded viewers. Ready to see that 100k line crossed.
These duplex loads are one fascinating can of worms! Especially with such a versatile cartridge as .45 colt. Looking forward to more testing!
Thank you
My hypothesis is that it is burning relatively speaking fast enough to get a full burn.
In the rifle you are getting a full burn prior to the bullet leaving the barrel and possibly possibly slowing down.
That was my thought as well. The powder has consumed itself, expended all of its energy n as the pressure curve is falling the rest of the barrel is creating drag.
I dont know, thats just my reloaders guess at first glance
Somewhere between the revolver barrel and the rifle barrel is a ideal length for that specific charge.
I believe this could be the answer. I was thinking the same.
I’m of the same mind
At at least as far as your getting a much higher velocity gain in the pistol because the smokeless is helping the BP burn more completely in the short barrel while the gains are not so great in the longer barrel of the rifle because it is already allowing for more complete combustion of the BP
Very much enjoy your clips. Years ago I loaded duplex BPRC with slow rifle powder (3031 imr) in a 10%to full charge BP loads (GOEX) simply to keep a clean bore for repeated shots as long as I cared to shoot. Mine were never intended for more power as I usually shot vintage firearms and wanted to preserve the gun. In Alaska I hunted with my duplex loads and the cleanliness for immediate reloads was paramount to saving ones butt at times. Anyhow keep up the good work and I'll keep watching. Nope don't want to "go make my own damn video" 😂
Helping to keep a clean burn in large volume BPC was my understanding of duplex loads, not for more power.
In physics, I often observed in the last year as I started studying Chemistry, that in most real world applications you wont see a linear relation between two dimensions across your whole measurement. You can often observe a proportional relationship within a certain range and in that range you can just use your linear model and expect to observe the results you calculate, beyond that range you cannot make any predictions.
What I hypothesize is that at least one rate of change during the firing process (maybe the powder burning itself, or the Volume or temperature) is exponential or logarithmic so that the rate at which pressure is built or the maximum pressure is achieved isn't quite linear which isn't as obvious for shorter barrel lenghts but at some point the deviation from linear is greater than the standard error.
I love that it dont matter what "people say" you like to see things for yourself.
My kinda people 👍👍👍
extremely compelling! very grateful to you and your crew for doing the heavy lifting for us so we can get the idea mills churning even more!!
maybe a cosrser granulation of BP in the rigle duplex would yeold different results with the longer barrel?
So I am currently researching how to make late 18th early 19th century French powder and I came across a section on making brown powder like the French did during the revolution when they invaded Great Britain (and failed miserably) and they said they used straw for charcoal just food for thought in case you might be looking into making some trashy brown powder in the future lol
Is it the straw that makes it trashy powder or something else?
I think it's a combination of the straw and the ratio of which the components are mixed in (79% niter, 3% sulfur and 18% charcoal) which evidently worked great for artillery. Not so much for muskets that and the fact that they were using Canon powder instead of the standard musket powder (1F) in their paper cartridges and Also in 1793 one of their biggest powder mills in France mysteriously exploded and they lost access to their roller presses for several years so it was also non-compressed@@Everythingblackpowder
But it was very well documented to be pretty bad lol
Learn more and more from you. Thanks Jake.
Very impressive results! I use 4227 at 12% max and have never had any unburned powder problems, I think the smoke trails were probably burning over powder wads or burning lube, I sometimes get tracer trails all the way to the target using full smokeless loads from wad/lube. Stay safe! Chris B.
Thanks Chris
My guess and just a guess is that the red-dot being a fast burning powder is really helping to overcome the launch velocity in the bisley. The longer barrel, however, the initial gain of the red-dot starter is being overcome by friction from the longer bearing surface. I'm going to try some with Unique, because I have many pounds of that. lol
Outstanding video. I love seeing other shooters delving into the vagaries of duplex loading. All of my experience has been in the .45-70, .45-90, .45-100, and .40-70 Sharps straight. All significantly longer rifle cases. I've never tried it in any revolver rounds, although most of my .45 Colt shooting is done with black powder. As you have discovered, the chief advantage is just how relatively "clean" they shoot. This can be an advantage in the field when hunting. After all, who is going to blow tube or wipe their single shots when after game? And isn't it nice to get more than a couple of accurate shots out of a lever gun, without accuracy going to hell even before the magazine is empty? Now that you have mentioned it, I can see the same advantages in the revolver. With modern smokeless era Colts being fitted somewhat tighter than the black powder era guns, their cylinders tend to start to drag and tie up after a few cylinders full. I can see where duplex loads would help with that.
Just one thing to make clear, although I'm sure you already know this (this is for the benefit of your faithful viewers). Duplex loads do not relieve us of the chore of cleaning our guns, and our cartridge cases, just as if we had used straight black powder. We are still faced with all of those issues. Duplexing only serves to make our time at the range a little less messy. Once we get home, the same cleaning procedures we suffer with straight black are still a requirement.
Thank you
This is a interesting subject and want to get to know more about it. My hypothesis is that the black powder being a fast flash powder, and the Red Dot being more of a slow burning powder is why we see the performance being quite good in the revolver. And because the rifle has an extended time in the barrel, it has time to get its full burning potential out of the powder. Therefore if a Guy is could try shooting a gun of variable lengths. He could figure out exactly what the optimum length would be for a particular load. I like your idea of putting the card or wad behind the bullet so as to advert the leading of your barrel. I have learned a lot about Black powder from watching your channel. Cheers Buddy!
The possible answer comparing the revolver against the rifle is that in straight black powder the revolver is not able to burn all the powder but when you add red dot you are getting better combustion of the black powder. In the rifle there is less difference because with the longer barrel you have time to burn all the black powder and when you add smokeless you get a small increase due to the smokeless contribution
Should be a good topic. We'll see if your results compare with mine! 👍
I don't know what the significance of it will be, but its important to know that smokeless and BP burn fundamentally differently. burning BP spreads through the powder stack by hot particles blowing off the surface of one grain and igniting the next. Smokeless burns by the hot hot gasses rushing through the case. Having those gasses running through the case and not being choked by crumpling powder or having to play combustion ping-pong to light all the powder means its all lighting at once and burning together. I bet you could see huge improvements in something like 45-70 (or maybe 45-100) if you had been using 3f powder, where the powder stack is "tall"/"long" compared to the size of the grains. If you have a gun that can handle some extra pressure, That's what I would try next.
edit: also you could try 1f, 2f, 3f, 4f powder in said .45-70 and see if there is a difference in the velocities.
PPS: I bet slow powder works worst and fast powder works better.
PPPS: Actually this is all coming together in my mind. What the fast powder is doing is heating up the case. Its burning super fast and heating the whole case up because its pressurizing it. Its like a fire piston except instead of trying to make the air's volume smaller, you are cramming a bunch more air (or in this case gasses from the combustion of the smokeless powder) into the piston and its being held more or less in the same volume so it gets very very hot. That is likely the mechanism that is needed to light and burn all the powder. I wish I was home so I could try this. I've got an 1895 and reload it, but I am traveling until April.
Heres what the test would look like: If this is true, you should get pretty much the same velocity with all powder types in a rifle or pistol (as in there will be a rifle velocity and a pistol velocity and it won't be different using 1f or 4f).
^best comment here imo
My uneducated guess is that in the revolver the addition of the smokeless powder and the faster burn get the bullet up to speed with a more complete burn in the limited length of the revolver while in the rifle the addition of the smokeless there’s not as much added velocity because the rifle gets a more complete burn to begin with.
The results in the Ruger were amazing. Also puzzled over the rifle results. I've been using duplex loads in BP ctg. rifles since the early 70's.
If you get a chance, try the same duplex formula but substitute Green Dot, and then Blue Dot, and check the difference.
OH, I have been going to make this comment for a while now. It's great how you always smirk at the end of each video when you say "make your own damned video" ! :): ) :)
Maybe the red dot ignited a lot more of the bp in a shorter time making it burn more of it before exiting the short barrel. With the rifle length barrel, more of the bp is given a chance to ignite before the bullet leaves in a standard bp load
The addition of smokeless powder to black powder was/is to speed up the combustion of the black. Going to a slower powder wont be a great idea, you want a faster pistol powder to flash the black as fast as possible. The reason duplex loads are working better in the pistol is that black likes a longer barrel to burn completely and the small charge of smokeless is helping it combust much faster. The reason the rifle wasn't seeing proportionate gains is that it had 24'' to make use of the black in the first place so it wasn't as critical to its success as the 4-5/8 ruger. The "tracer" coming off the 303 I'm wondering if it wasnt your cardstock or else bullet lube flying off. That one as me scratching my head.
There was no card wad in the 303 and I was using a jacketed bullet
Now I'm scratching my head even harder.@@Everythingblackpowder
Jake I have no idea what is happening in the combustion chamber and can offer no assistance in that regard.
But I would like to give you three more suggestions for wood for making charcoal 1. Bamboo 2. Basswood 3. Paulownia, both Basswood and Paulownia are very light and have almost no resins or gums in them and Bamboo of course is a type of grass. It could be very interesting.
Interesting, I assumed the exact opposite. I've read that during the second world war 20 mm Borsig cases often had little baggies of black powder to aid in the ignition of the smokeless main propellant charge.
I have been thinking about this for a while and consider I have a reasonably good reason for your surprise with .45 Colt Duplex velocity gains in Revolver versus Rifle loads / reloads…
In your rifle the 3f black powder has pretty much completely burned through even in the standard black powder loads and your small(ish) velocity increase with the duplex load is down to the slightly higher pressures due to the nitro powder content.
Where your short(ish) barrelled revolver is concerned however, the initial pure b.p. loads are not consuming all of that powder fully (or at least it isn’t being able to give the full pressure of it burning completely) before the projectile has left the barrel.
With the Duplex Load the increase in pressures (and temperatures) in the cartridges is burning up MORE of the available black powder that isn’t being burnt up completely in the b.p. only loads, and that higher temp is giving you more immediate pressure because of this behind the bullets, hence higher velocities….
The higher pressure &?temps in particular in your Duplex Loadings is the Key here I feel….
Here is a thought. In a long barrel, the burn rate (explosions) inside the barrel cancel each other out to some degree due to the burn rate difference from one to the other. Where in the short barrel the explosions complement each other before they can have a negative effect. Hence the rate of burn on variety of smokeless powder can be tested in conjunction with your black powder to see if you can sequence the explosion frequency to compound the explosion effect to that particular barrel length.
Just a theory, but one based in the timing calc we all do as reloaders. Bigger heat kernel faster, heavy for caliber holding ignition just a touch longer. This will support a faster burn, not necessarily a longer one. At least you weren't getting 950 from the carbine. That would be lead city.
Very interesting! Although I’m gonna be thinking on this for a while, being the amateur chemist I am, I wonder if certain smokeless powders are oxygen positive or negative when they decompose? Out of the rifle, the idea of potentially increasing the burn speed of the good ol stuff with excess oxygen around provided by the smokeless, thus consuming the entire charge prematurely and hampering its exodus to the outside world…..? Or maybe weighing the black by volume and the smokeless by weight?😂😂😂 ya I just had to throw that in again. Dang it, gonna make me start screwing around with duplex loads now and I hardly have time to tie my shoes anymore. Great job! Keep it up!
By the way…… the only person allowed to use the word, “significant,” when comparing velocities is Paul Harrell😁
Paul will have to trust me using the word significant
It would be interesting to see this with different bullet to powder ratios, considering this was 40 to 300 and the previous was 50 to 200 ish it could be moving the bullet early (based on smokeless to bullet ratio) and making the black powder burn better both decreasing and increasing velocity
My guess is that it has something to do with the different pressure curves of smokeless versus black powder. Smokeless (like most explosives) burns faster the higher the pressure (which comes from confinement). Black powder, almost uniquely, does not. So, when you put black powder over smokeless in a short barrel, the smokeless (which burns first) creates an initial spike in pressure and a sharp initial impulse. This gets you a substantial performance gain in a short barrel, but the effect is less pronounced in a long barrel (where you want a slower ramp-up in burn).
My idea also comes with a simple way to test it - load the smokeless over the black powder instead. This should then shift the pressure spike to later in the burn (but also lower the total pressure, as the smokeless is less confined), resulting in less performance out of the revolver and equivalent or better performance out of the rifle.
Defligration velocity.
The smokeless burns faster than the black powder and moves the pistol bullet faster. However, the rifle, with the extra barrel length, can only benefit marginally from the initial higher speed burning 🔥
Outstanding as usual 👍
It would be cool to see how slower burning rifle powders would work in a rifle. The higher pressure of that smokeless may be positively effecting the cleaning
Black Powder has a faster flame speed than smokeless hence its use in artillery shells and naval powder bags. It’s not unburned powder flying downrange.
Not sure how I missed this but I did I'm glad I found it, thank you thank you thank you
Thank you
Great video jake. Man I would love to see what going on with pressure and burn rate. One of these days love to get one of those Extremely fast slow motion cameras. I would love to see what's going on with these duplex loads
So would you like to hear my theory on the rifle? Ah I guess I should have viewed the entire video first, as you asked. So at the danger of being incorrect here's my thoughts.
To start with I will refer back to the percussion cap versus the modern day center fire primer heat/energy output.. so in the case of red dot it is an easy to light higher energy fast burning powder. Again 3 f also easy lite, and 30 grains max load. What I suspect is happening is complete consumption of powder with in the 7-10" range. Losing to the lack of expanding gases and friction in the What think you said was a 24" barrel. It is a high energy starter.
Again I could be sticking my neck here a bit but that's my thoughts. Now a way to test it is a follow up with test loads of 2, 1.5, and 1 fg, but could be minimal change due to the lack of volume/weight of bp.
Great pistol load !
Now on a different subject I took possession of my 45-55 walker this week. So it is a uberti/ kirst conversion. It one of three platforms I have chambered for it. The walker bp only, thompson center contender 10" I will load similarly to my old 12" 45-70. And an 18" 12ga to 45-55 walker barrel sleeve. The case is a .460 smith and wesson magnum case shortened by .030.
I too think Jeremy's results were disappointing, however I do think I can do better. That's to be seen. The bullet of choice is going to be the same 270+ grain Mukwa bullet Jeremy tested.
Mountain man
Thanks for the input. I’m interested to see how your 45-55 Walker does.
The answer to your question; why proportionally better performance in short vs long barrel?
Alliant is a double based powder. That is a mixture of stabilized nitroglycerin and nitrocellulose. Red dot should be about 20% nitroglycerin. By contrast bullseye is about 40%. And 2400 is maybe 4%. I’ve not looked at an MSDS in years. So this from memory. And since the sale of Alliant formulations may have changed.
Interior ballistic theory.
Double based powders are in essence “duplex” concoctions from the factory. While single based are just that, only nitrocellulose.
Roughly speaking nitroglycerine determines relative “burn rate” or speed of the powder. The more nitroglycerin the faster the powder. Thus bullseye is faster than red dot which is faster than 2400. Burn flame front progression of nitroglycerin is a function of volumetric containment. The higher the instantaneous containment the faster the flame front progression.
So. You have in essence concocted a triplex load.
The 20-80 mix of nitroglycerine-nitrocellulose in the red dot. Under your black powder charge. Under a heavier than typical bullet. I’d suspect that the nitroglycerin in that charge is basically consumed before the bullet even move from the case. With resultant case head pressures which are high, but not excessive.
Then the nitrocellulose and black powder burn as the bullet moves from the case and down the barrel. With resultant increasing volume as the burn continues. I’d suspect that the black powder provides the bulk of the energy in what is essentially a secondary burn in the barrel.
So basically you seem to have stumbled upon a very efficient concoction suited to a shorter barrel. As opposed to the longer barrel. If you had an intermediate barrel length, say 7-8 inches, you might be able to confirm this with your chronograph.
Keep in mind your dealing with some complex interior ballistics of pressure and expanding volume as it effects the burn characteristics of three disparate compounds. But your only method of measure is the velocity produced in the external ballistic. Put that load on target and you add precision from the terminal ballistic to your analysis.
Theoretically, as much as I understand this subject, using something like bullseye should push observed “efficiency” even more toward the short barrel…. But you may also begin to see signs of excess pressure. As Elmer did testing the molecular integrity of the steels in his revolver cylinders upon occasion.
Do be careful. I find myself looking forward to you next experiment. Please don’t thwart my entertainment by spontaneous disassembly.
Fox out
So red dot is pistol powder because how fast it burns under pressure. You literally blow your load in faster. There is a magic sweet spot for matching the speed a powder burns to barrel length. The red dot will be done building pressure in under 10" of bullet bump. Most rifles reloading manuals, at least for the cartridges I load like 7mm mag 30/30 444 243 all publish data and pressure from a 20 inch barrel and provide rifle powders. It's a little confusing to think of using a "slower" powder to increase velocity but that's what is happening. The longer you can keep 50,000 psi pushing a bullet down a barrel the faster it exits the muzzel. Hodgedon web site has a powder burn rate chart listed.
Curiosity has me wondering if the rifle 45 colt would have been better if red dot was loaded on top of 3f. Maybe it would burn a little later?
Love the vid. No chickens around here.
We have to remember primers and most other flatten at a certain pressure not flatten when over pressure.
We get used to cartridges having almost the same peak pressures. Most pistol cartridges max pressures wont flatten at all.
what's probably going on is the smokeless is giving a more complete ignition on the blackpowder over just the primer giving you a pressure boost from a more complete powder burn in the shorter barrel kicking the velocity up where the rifle barrel the volume of the barrel length is canceling out the boost!
Very interesting results, and method in general. You’ve caught my interest with this, and I’m gonna read into it some more. Sizing those 45/70 bullets down has my interest for general loading. Looks like it has a pretty wide meplat, so I’m curious now how well they do over smokeless powder. Good stuff!
Greetings from Apacheria in the Arizona Territories Ahe'hye'e
For rifles, I've always loaded the smokeless on top of the black powder!
I’ve tried it both ways.
Very cool.
Maybe The extra barrel length went beyond the point of diminishing returns with the given case volume. I have observed the same thing with my Ruger Single Seven revolvers. It seems like the 5 1/2 inch barrel gives me a higher velocity than the 7 1/2 inch with the same load in .327 FM. I have some chronograph testing to do after the weather breaks at my range. Slower powder?
Maybe the difference between the two is the rate of burn? The black powder could be getting burned up differently in a shorter barrel vs a longer one. All because of the smokeless powder addition acts as a propellant and not an explosive like black powder.
If we think in terms of the Carnot cycle, I still intuit that the initial bullet velocity is offset by the lower compression later in the combustion process. If we were to look at a graph of pressure behind the bullet over time, I'm guessing a pure BP or smokeless load would ideally be linear, whereas these duplex loads would have a curve or "knee" where pressure drops off. Kind of like how an Atkinson cycle engine has dropped compression for more fuel efficiency but less torque.
Also, I'm really curious about rocket candy.
This one is easy. It's safe to say the .45 colt is operating at normal pistol pressure with this load. Well, most standard pressure .45 colt loads only get 1200 ish FPS out of a 20 inch barrel, regardless of what powder or combination thereof is used.
The primary reason is barrel friction. If you can get your hands on Quickload and setup long barrel friction, you can see the how the velocity down the barrel is not a straight line. It curves and even starts to droop toward the end.
The secondary reason is caliber size interacts with gas expansion. Basically, as the bullet moves down the barrel, the area the gas has to expand into increases. This expansion reduces its pressure. You need a minimum amount of pressure behind the bullet in order to overcome the friction of the barrel. Due to how geometry works, when you double the size of a circle, its area quadruples. So a big bore like .44 doesn't need twice as much gas behind it as a .22, it needs 4 times as much gas to maintain that pressure.
.45 colt just can't stuff enough powder inside it to produce enough gas to maintain enough pressure to get a bullet down a 20 inch barrel before it starts losing speed. You could chop 10 inches off that barrel and lose no FPS at all.
Interesting vid. 👍
Thank you
This duplex formula can be very interesting for those who want to save on smokeless powder, because it becomes difficult to find it as you want at a good price (shortage)
Bp is also becoming very expensive
Anyone who makes their own low-cost BP will find what they’re looking for.
in addition he will clean his barrel less often
I believe the duplex method is used in some mortars and cannons
it may be possible to be able to fine-tune the output speed more easily.
1 primer stage
2 small stage smokeless powder
3 large stage black power
would it be in the order of liveliness?
this is all very interesting
your channel more watched than television
Fast powders like red dot will show better velocity performance in a short barrel because they burn fast and complete before exit. Slower powders will preform better than faster powders in long barrels because the barrel gives them time to complete burn before exit.
My theory on why you are getting diminished gains in the rifle is that, the longer bearing surface of the 300 grain bullet is affected by the longer barrel on the rifle but not so on the shorter barrel of the revolver. The longer barrel is placing more drag on the bullet. It's a theory.
I think you may be getting "barrel drag" with a 24 inch barrel. Drag is where the powder has burnt out completely and the bullet is slowing down from friction. You may see a better gain out of pistol cartridges in a 16 or 18 inch just based on powder capacity. Please keep testing to see if I'm right or wrong.
I use flat based bullets wherever possible I find I have significant more leading with bevel based and it doesn't seem to matter what lube gets used. It would be interesting to see the results in a smaller capacity case like a 38 special. As for the velocity spread that is definitely something that is odd. Definitely scrolling the comments to see everyone's theories
The blackpowder should burn almost instantaneously. You either have burning impurities in your charcoal or you’re seeing burning fragments of your card wad.
Well it’s Swiss powder so I wouldn’t expect much of any impurities and I didn’t use any card wads for the 303.
In the revolver you light up the Black Powder and Quickly set of by the Black. That is why you wind up with the powder almost consumed before the end of the barrel.
In the Rifle you have burned the Powder and you have several more inches of barrel left for it (the bullet) to travel and slow slightly. At least that is what I have seen.
I believe ( with zero evidence of proof ) that it is a case of diminishing return just based on your results. Typically rounds that perform better in rifles than in pistols/ revolvers do so because they don't reach their full potential in the short barrel and they do in the longer barrel. In this instance, it seems that while there is improvement in both short and long barrels, the burn is so fast and efficient that it can do so in the short barrel. In other words, I believe that you are seeing less improvement in the longer barrel simply because the load isn't that much more powerful, just faster at reaching full potential and therefore showing larger gains in the short barrel because the long barrel already provides more time for the black powder only loads to max out as well.
The smokeless is helping get it done quicker but not necessarily much more powerfully. Like 1/8 mile vs 1/4 mile drag racing. Lowers gears will help in 1/8 but can cause you to max out too soon in 1/4. Long winded explanation of my opinion but there you have it. THANKS for all that you do and for all of your content.
Great video
Thank you
I wish I had the knowledge to make an an informed comment about the pressures and burn speed but alas, I do not. I would be interested in knowing if blending the two powders would affect the speed. I noticed that the smokeless was on the bottom, with the black powder added to the top.
Maybe its just simply that the length of barrel allows complete burn of the black powder, and that whether it's duplex or straight, it's all burned at the same time, and that the duplex with the length of barrel just doesn't add. The smokeless has more to offer in a shorter barrel?
Sorry if this is a dumb question but here it is: Could a person mix smokeless powder and black powder in a flintlock muzzleloader? Could this combination decrease the fouling often experienced with GOEX or Schuetzen powders? By the by, the handgun load you assembled looked like it packed a serious punch. Thank you for the great videos.
To me it's simple. Even though BP is a constant rate burn, in the revolver you're still not likely getting a complete burn. The 3.5grs of RD is aiding in giving you a complete burn and now you're seeing the increase in velocity. In the rifle you're going to get 100% burn no matter what, so the 3.5grs of RD is probably not going to give you much of an increase in velocity. Not anymore that can't be explained by a simple increase, or decrease in ambient temperature.
Jake the longer barrel and Pistol left me wondering what the heck is going in FPS ?.......Thank my friend.....
Old F-4 2 Shoe🇺🇸
Rather than stacking the different powders one atop the other, I wonder if you mixed them before putting it in the shell would make a difference?
We tried mixing them and reversing them in 303 British. It made a considerable difference. The video will be out in a couple weeks
Now this is going to be fun.
I you want to check unburned powder you can try shooting through a hole throw multiple sheets of white paper glued to cardboard. See what kind of gunk sticks to the sheets.
I think, in the longe barrel needs large grains powder , then you will get high velocity
My random and completely uniformed speculation. So the theory behind duplex is that the smokeless speeds up the combustion of the black powder right? So in a short barrel where you’re never going to get complete combustion (unless you’re using a really fast smokeless pistol powder) you’re seeing a significant gain. Meanwhile in a long barrel that’s less a factor since there is so much more time for complete progression. Additionally since you’re using a 1894 cb with an extra long barrel you’re probably seeing some slowing from friction after the powder is completely burnt. I don’t reload 45 colt, but I’d expect slower speeds from a 24” barrel than an 18.5 in 357 for instance because all the powders I use are burnt in the first 14-18 inches max. If I were to load a 357 mag with something like titegroup I wouldn’t expect more velocity from a rifle than say an 8” pistol. Just a wild speculation.
Using your duplex load you are getting more velocity with a 300 grain bullet and 30 grains of black than you would expect to get with a straight 40 grain black load with a 250 grain bullet.
Here’s a question for you, where can you find a good black powder pistol? I’ve looked, and most of the large manufacturers are sold out! I enjoy shooting my rifle when I find the time, but have never owned a revolver. I don’t care for the long barreled ones. By the way, I’m also scratching my head about the rifle, pistol difference in velocity!
Interesting concept. I would love to see this same test with a "magnum" powder. Something like HS6. 4227 or 296. Or if the low charge ball powder thing is to unknown .....maybe something like 2400?
Had another thought. I wonder if you'd get similar results from a totally different rifle. Different twist and different length of barrel. And have you slugged the bore on the marlin? Barrels can behave differently. As far as speed and accuracy
Excellent! I would like to try a double or triple 357 load with the 75gr Lyman 358101
SHITFAR, That's a thumper right there. I'll load them up for the shear fact that its cleaner. I'm going to try a Trail boss / Black duplex. As always great video Gentlemen, when I get my notification that Everything BP is premiering soon, its HIGH on the priority list to watch ASAP.
Be careful, Trail Boss shouldn’t be compressed. His load was definitely compressed.
@@gunmike6072 oh I won't compress it. I'll seat just until the bullet touches the powder column.
@@deerslayer303B Trail Boss would not even be my last choice anywhere near black powder. It gets weird and psi spikes when used outside its very narrow usage window. It has not been manufactured for about 6 yrs now if I remember what Hodgden told me directly. It's standard case start load is 70% of space under bullet. In any case. No grains listed and NEVER compress. There has been a lot of confusion because it is loaded different
from any other powder. I would be suprised if they ever made it again.
My first thought is that the cylinder gap may be messing with the numbers in an unexpected way. How exactly, i don't know, but it might be worth finding a single shot .45 colt pistol like a super Comanche or a Rossi brawler and testing if that gives any significant difference from the velocities of the Ruger. Any minor variance after that may be extrapolated to barrel drag, as I've seen mentioned in another comment, or a relatively unusual pressure curve as a result form the mixed load.
I am curious what would happen if you mixed the powders before you put them in the case. I kind of think what might be happening is that the smokeless powder is delaying the ignition of the black powder in the rifle but the cylinder gap in the revolver is somehow causing the black powder to ignite.
If you loaded it with 2F rather than 3F, you might get a higher velocity in the Marlin. You're likely running out of pressure loading with the faster burn rate in the longer barrel.
It would be detrimental to the velocity of the pistol loads, though.
Wow that's smoking fast
Interested to see the smokeless goes in first, is it for safety that the two types of powder aren't mixed before loading into the case?
We tried mixing them and reversing them. Will have a video on that in a couple weeks
I suspect that the powder mix you had was burning fast and worked well in the pistol because of barrel length. me assumption as far as the rifle is concerned is the powder is not burning long enough to provide the velocity. so I mean a portion of the barrel is causing extra drag on the bullet because of the burn rate not being tailored to the barrel length.
Thanks for all you content. One quick question. I would like to purchase a flintlock. What would you recommend that is not a project gun? And doesn't cost multiple grands.. Call it a starter rifle. Thanks again.
Kibler long rifle is the best bang for you buck
@@Everythingblackpowder Thanks!
Revolver Smokeless launches it as the BP burns pressure never stops being built
Rifle smokless launches BP burns up pressure stops being built
Maybe the cleanliness Is caused by the expansive wave of the smokeless push the residue of the BP out of the barrel, the gain un speed in the revolver Is really impressive compares to the rifle, my theory with this duplex load in longer barrel behaves like that it's maybe because the initial speed of the bullet when smokeless hits pushes fast but then speed decreases after few noches inside barrel, then the second wave of pressure from the slower buen BP starts to increase again of the bullet in the last length of the barrel, if the duplex load can be loaded safely puting first BP and over that the smokeless to see how clean it burns and how speed behaves, compared to first smokeless then BP. Maybe another test mixing both, if it's safe mixing together. As always the best !
How is the load calculated? I have an original 1886 Winchester in 45-60.
What books are available in this topic as well as a good step ny step process for making propellent?
Great video. Could the difference be in the guns themselves? Different bore diameters and different rifling?
I think it's barrel friction on that huge bullet. I'd be curious what it would do out of a 16" barrel?
Loading my 45 colt noticed HORNADY and some few others recommended large rifle primers, figured somthing to do with its black powder history? Primers dont fit as well though
24" may be too long for the load. If the powder is already burned completely before the bullet exits the barrel it begins to be a drag on speed.
Maybe barrel length the powder may be burning up before the bullet leaves the barrel. That is a WAG on my part great video!
The burning stuff that was coming from the .303 rounds, was most likely lube or an over powder wad. Shoot a few jacketed bullets through your rifle, if this goes away it is probably lube / wad.
I have to agree with the reloaders that say you are burning up the powder part way down the barrel creating drag in the last few inches of the barrel. If you can find a rifle with a shorter barrel you could test this theory
I saw that video and he was already using jacketed, unlubed bullets and I don't recall any wad.
Is their any leading in the rifle? If their is I would might say its losing velocity do to not enough lube and leading the bore. I have had unburnt powder in 357 mag with poor crimps and standerd non mag primers. Ive also had a problem in 22 hornet with the primer pushing the bullet out of the case and not ignite the powder fully. I had to use small pistol primers instead of small rifle primers with H110 and Lil gun powder. Could be completely different problem. Looking forward to any findings. Good luck 👍
No leading in the rifle but I didn’t fire that many rounds
Bullet drag in the longer barrel (aka-friction)
im curious to know if your speeds can be replicated with 777
Interesting to see a video on this subject. I've heard of Elmer Keith doing it with the 333 OKH wildcat (30-06 necked up version) with 275 or 300 grain bullets. i honestly feel his claim of 2300 fps is a little optimistic especially with a 300 grain bullet
Maybe there's not enough volume of expanded gas to keep the pressure up in the rifle in order to accelerate the projectile even more, but the higher pressure is enough to bump up the velocity in the pistol