If drinker and nerdrotic are the generals in a war for good entertainment, Clifton is the poet who conveys the conflict for future generations. New sub from me
@ninvusoogoar6098 that comment was probably just negativity for its own sake. Drinker, Nerdrotic, and the “Fandom Menace” in general have made significant waves in the counterculture pushback The establishment institutions are years away from changing, but the fact that the new Indiana Jones “and the Destruction of Legacy” has flopped so hard is a perfect example that the tide actually is turning
Gary is a great example of how people who never interested in the culture war got cooped into the battle ground, and they pissed the wrong people. Nerdom is passionate about thier space, and they will defend that space from anyone. This exactly happened to me during Gamer Gate. I just wanted to play video game in peace...
I missed Gamer Gate because I actually wasn't big into where games where going with the HUD that told you your temperature and where to go at all times having everything explained, super easy games, flash button commands during big cinematic cutscenes. I couldn't even call half of western games, games. They're often interactive movies rather than games. So me and a couple friends got into classic gaming going to Sega Master, Nintendo FM or NES, MSX/MSX2, Sega Mega Drive/Genesis, SNES/SFC, Sega Saturn, Sony PlayStation, N64, Nintendo Gamecube, Sony PlayStation 2, Gameboy, Gameboy Color and Gameboy Advance. We stayed within that, Super Mario Maker on Wii U and The Nintendo Switch with Legend Of Zelda Breath Of The Wild and Super Mario Odyssey brought me back at the end of 2017 and later got filled into the lore of Zoey Quinn, Anita Snarkessian, Polygon, IGN, Kotaku etc. I never really read game reviews outside of Nintendo Power and Game Informer. But wow.
same here. i just wanted to be left alone and play video games and live my life, but overnight i was now suddenly a misogynist (and probable rapist) and speeding towards racist and trans-phobe. in a very short amount of time i went from "i dont want to talk politics ever" to "Trump 2016!!!" they made a lifelong enemy out of me.
Haaa... the Great Battle of The Gamer Gate of 2014... I was just a young lad in Belgium waiting for fighting game releases when Game Journalists from America and tumblristas fell upon me telling me Dead or Alive was made for lone, aggressive, mysoginistic, gatekeeping loosers incel... Looking at them now beeing aggressively and toxic towards people and gatekeeping the hell out of american entertainement is very lovely of them.
@Bill Bixby You fucking liar shut the fuck up. "We're inserting dogshit political propaganda into everything and ruining the quality of the games, but no one's stopping you from playing in peace" You doubletalking woke liar. Your ideology ruins everything it touches, and you don't have the decency to ever admit you're wrong because you're actively lying. You're not just mistaken. How does it feel to have to hide and pretend you weren't proudly calling yourself woke before it became unfashionable to do so? How does it feel to be just another rat fleeing the ship that no one who thinks like you has ever built?
Yep and the same thing happened to many of us in his age group. The last thing we want to do is fight a culture war and talk about race and gender all day but they forced our hand
I am a very girly very straight woman in my 40s, and yes, I've bought into some feminist stories in the past. But you know what I've been watching lately? Old westerns from the 50s and 60s. And that was never a genre I ever cared about at all. But I think it's totally because I crave to see manly men doing manly things in a manly way. We are all starved for that right now.
We can't have sexy women anymore, either. Can't pander to the infamous "male gaze;" can't show male sexuality in any positive light. I'm not saying that's the only thing that matters, obviously (I hope it's obvious!), but, you know, a little sexiness has its place in fantasy, too. The male gaze theory is demeaning for everybody -- making the worst assumptions about men and underestimating women's capacity of eliciting empathy and admiration as full human beings. It just so happens that we evil men tend to enjoy seeing beautiful women in our escapist entertainement; go figure.
Eloquence and openness is hallmark for what I’ve heard from Clifton this far. So weary of the divisiveness the mainstream calls “normal.” I’ve got black, Hispanic, white, lesbian, and Asian neighbors and we all help out when it snows or if someone’s car battery dies et al. We talk and chat and share and keep things light and positive because we all live together. This… I repeat that THIS is human nature! Working as intelligent and humane human beings seems to be a natural offshoot for humanity. Unless we are all suffering under the thumb of tyranny or catastrophic natural disaster, humans band and bond. So, why am I constantly fed this claptrap that tells me I’m supposed to fear, despise, hate, dismiss my fellow cro-magnons? Fuck that. This is a terrific standalone discussion and both Clifton and Gary are standard bearers for the vast majority of Americans who are waking up from the woke. Ideologues are dangerous creatures. It always, ALWAYS leads to destruction, chaos, and death whenever someone truly believes they are walking a holy path because they can only support this notion by spitting on anything that is “the other.” This is endemic of psychosis. We can and do behave better than what we are being told, my friends. Don’t let some millionaire asshat dictate your reality.
Gary says he doesn't know when this happened. The shift into identity obsession. I think it's very much tied to social media and how younger generations have basically grown up online. With avatars. Constantly looking at themselves in the Facebook / Instagram "mirror". So from around 2006. Learning narcissism. Learning how to construct and control a reality, that isn't actual reality. A safe space with no diverging opinions and no need to learn tolerance and co-existence. You can simply unfriend or unfollow people you don't agree with. That's not healthy. And it causes division. This way of looking at the world bleeds over into their offline lives. They feel the need to constantly insert themselves into anything and everything. They view everything through a narcissistic lense and judge everything out of its context, historic or otherwise. They get offended so easily when they're challenged or confronted with how some people are different than them. There's a direct line from the behavior we are taught online on social media platform (and things like RUclips) to the sad and sick concept of cancel culture. My humble analysis. And I'm someone who's a liberal and very concerned about how the political fringes on both sides, not only in America, are getting more and more insane, emotional and anti-science. "Thanks a lot" Zuckerberg...
This has been creeping in for over a century now, when the communist Marxists of the Frankfurt school got together to try and reignite the communist revolution the realised that to sell this in America it would need to be a issue of race in Stead of a class struggle. What we are seeing is part of the plan, the destruction of western media is an important part of it.
Tolerance is what got us here. Almost no one cared what or who you were. Then they started shoving tolerance down are throats. I use to tolerate people, now i and others are being forced to f××king hate people i didn't before. At this point i avoid everyone who isn't like me, its not worth it for anyone who didn't know me before to know me now. There's just to me risks. They people who started this won, they just didn't get it they way they wanted it, unless someones in my face they don't exist. At this point if your not friend, family or something that caught my attention, you don't matter to me. I no longer care anything about you. I at this point will guard what little there is left a like that isn't destroyed and everything else can just burn.
@@kylejustus1605 It was Liberals. We can blame 'things' and there is an element of truth to that but the people are Liberals. To them an extension of everything is 'absurd'. All you have to do is look at the type of people moving away from the left/ liberalism/ wokism compared to how many people move from the right or the centre towards the left/ wokeism etc. Look at Posie Parker, great lady but a feminist, and is utterly distraught at wokeism. Still blames 'men' despite the fact at College age over 80% of the people identifying as progressive are women, over 80% of Transgender people are biocidal women. Despite people very politely begging her to stop blaming 'men' and that if she wants to reverse that side of things , she'll need good normal blokes, she carries on blaming men. It's not one gender or the other that's caused this it's Western Liberals. We'll get what we deserve. Nothing is free and we will pay the price for thinking its hip to be over tolerant.
"Toxic fandom" is like watching an episode of kitchen nightmares where Gordon tells the restaurants staff that there perfect and doing nothing wrong and it is in fact all the fault of the customers. 😂 there's a reason you've never seen that episode, because it doesn't exist.
Loved this conversation! Gary is right this is your calling and whatever else you decide to do with your life please continue with your commentary. You are so eloquent and well spoken with your content. I look forward to more !
He's right about 2010 being the beginning of divisive agenda push. This is what happened around that time in gaming specifically: gamers started calling out companies about the greedy microtransactions, casino game design, questionable relations with the media, and distain for opinionated gamers. The industry fired back by sowing seeds of division, because it couldn't handle direct criticism from the consumer/online consumer groups. Instead of fixing things, being flexible, and having discourse, you were labeled this and that by shady salesmen, PR firms and later, useful idiots. The rest is history.
Micro-transactions and complaining about them got popular post gamergate. Furthermore the people screeching the highest about “greed” in the industry mostly share the same opinions with all the news sites that tried to marginalize gamers.
there is a recent article in bloomberg about "How GAMERS defeated NFT's" Oct 17, 2022. Thought you might find it interesting but you'll have to search for it on a site that reposts paywalled articles
this is true not just for gaming but other sectors as well i'd say - no one wanted to fix actual problems so they pushed us into fixating on other things.
I'm so glad the RUclips algorithm worked so that it recommended this channel. Clifton you are such an intelligent, articulate, and experienced individual bringing such a needed perspective on the industry to light. It must take a lot of integrity to take a stand when it could be so much easier to compromise yourself and cash large checks. Good luck with your endeavors to make independent work. I'd definitely love to see it.
I'd like to echo @TylerBrunton comment - Thank you for saying what I was thinking! I am looking forward to listening to every interview on this channel!
At 22:00 I felt so connected to what Clifton is saying. I auditioned for a role in the movie "To Wong Fu, Thanks for Everything, Julie Newmar". I was in Nebraska, and they were portraying Nebraskans as dumb hicks who didn't know anything. After reading the lines, I looked at the casting director and said, "I'm struggling with this because no Nebraskan would actually say these things." She just said read it again and watched me intensely as I tried to read these horrible lines again... I didn't get the part. But I forever understood just how Hollywood viewed my home state.
Gary makes a good point about the purpose of fandom. These institutions exist to help us think past our differences. The same is true of the workplace. It used to be considered unprofessional to talk politics a work, and yet now even the workplace is being targeted as a way to divide us.
I was thinking about all this forced diversity crap and it dawned on me that my favourite sci fi of all time, Red Dwarf, had 2 of the 4 main actors that were black. It had never occurred to me before. I just hadn't thought about it because we just didn't care. It was a hilarious show with some great sci fi stories.
And that is the most enlightening point! We had developed as a society around the world not completely without racism, however with first world countries being mostly colour blind. In recent years, we have been retaught how to see colour, and in some cases to support segregation! How insane is that? Oh, and yes, go cat
The boys from the Dwarf!!!!!! That show was epic. Did some volunteering back in the day when they were showing it on PBS stations. Got to meet Bob Llewellyn, and Craig Charles, one time when they came to promote. And another time Danny John-Jules and Bob. We were all fans of Red Dwarf on the phone banks, and they treated us all after work with gratitude for having us as fans, even though most of us were sperging out.
@@gryphon9507 wow mate!! I’m impressed! Spent many an hour late at night when I used to watch abc, watching red dwarf. Top show, nice that you where able to meet some of the guys though!
You fixed the link to the Intro music! You're an angel! (I'm a woman.) Thanks a million. These are great interviews, Clifton. Your talk with VDH is my favorite. I hope you'll talk to Heather Mac Donald, maybe the only pundit qualified to cover classical music, lit, and ballet. She's currently chronicling the destruction of all 3 fields. I think your audience would love her, and you 2 would really hit it off. Keep it up!
10:45 I actually recognize myself in that. The kind of "diversity" in movies etc that I wouldn't have thought twice about 10 years ago can now actually turn me off because it's been slowly associated with aggressive wokeness in my brain for 8 years. You feel like a kid being force fed broccoli because it's "good for you". Same reason I'd skip a movie if the actor brags in interviews about how the movie is actually about "toxic masculinity" etc.
Just stumbled on this podcast. Was already a fan of Gary, now I am a fan of Clifton. This was an enjoyable real conversation between two people that could talk about anything in our pop culture and not descend into name calling. Respectful and honest talk is what people are starving for. Liked and subscribed keep up the strong work Clifton.
"People who want to focus on every minutiae on why we're different, and not why we're the same" is my favorite quote from this video. I wholeheartedly agree!
It’s a shame about Star Trek being dead, Duncan would be a great fit for a Trek show because I think it really needs actors from a classical background to work. The best Trek actors generally had a theater background.
I always think of real Trek fondly, but with today's shenanigans it hard to separate the two as the modern crap always creeps into my thoughts when watching the classics. The show Picard did not help one little bit.
@@terrylandess6072 I could be wrong and overlooking some secret recipe Seth MacFarlane is inserting into his show, but this current season of The Orville has contained some of the most divisive current day subjects around, but he's twisted it in a way that old Trek would have so as to not leave out half the audience politically. I hope it gets a 4th season as that show is where the hope is and where the true Star Trek lies.
Two brave, smart men doing such important work gives me hope. DIE and CRT are poison to the arts, and education. Clifton, I am an actor too and I feel you. Gary, great shout out for the 12 Steps. Am so grateful to be working them myself and they have changed my life so radically. Keep working to change the things you can, you two. Wishing you much serenity as you do.
To the point of gamergate: Gamergate started much earlier than this sex scandal, where a lady got a lot of favors doing bed work. Gaming magazines had come under scrutiny before that, as people realized the games were worse than the reviews. It then came out that even more writers were just miserable and it quickly became apparent that the "media" were actually no longer interested in the truth (at least the majority of writers)
I found it surprising that many of the people whom read outlandish magazines knew it was all BS, but they got a kick out of it. Different strokes ya know? What's sad is when one changes from reputable to suspect and cringe worthy.
Man, so i´ve watched the Drinker Podcast and i´m half way through the Nerdrodic one, and you already earned my sub. Not only cuz you have a clear healthy mind and see things how they really are, but you´re also so chilled, laidback and overall very eloquent. Keep goin brother! ;)
Around the 48-50 min Clifton talking about keeping quiet & lying to yourself and eroding your soul reminded me of things Andrew Klavan has said about being a writer in Hollywood. Glad you’re not allowing that to happen!
I love Gary on FNT and also his Nerdrotic posts. But it's always a pleasure to listen to him, as a guest, sit and talk about culture and where it's heading. Thanks, Clifton. Hope to see you back on FNT.
I went to see The Batman this week. Early on in the film there is a scene in which a gang of criminals assault an Asian-American man. Everyone in the gang is wearing whiteface ('enacting Whiteness' as the CRT people say) and the one gang member who is conflicted about the assault is black. Symbolically, he has only half of his face painted white. Sadly, I don't think Wokeness in entertainment is going away any time soon. It's just getting more subtle in its application.
I hate to say it, but you’re right about the subtlety. I personally enjoyed The Batman, but I didn’t pick up on that bit until you mentioned it. They could’ve handled that part better.
Always good to hear your point of view on things happening within your sphere Clifton. I'm glad you're out here doing your own podcasts because you are a dynamic force that when you were FNT you were fantastic! I think you can bring some great insight...the Romeo & Juliet reference was brilliant and it shows why characterization isn't just about representation.
You know your last bit on a female having a hero's journey.. You know a movie that you might not think about it being the case but totally has that in it? The original Nightmare on Elm Street. Like really it's in there, watch it. Nancy Thompson starts the movie as this young teenager who is thrust into horrific events beyond her ability to control or fight. She starts out the movie young, naive, and completely at Freddy's mercy. Near the end when she realizes that she can't rely on outside help, she turns to books and knowledge of dreams and booby traps to help her. Through out the movie she learned through failure, be they her own or her friends. She learned what Freddy could do what he couldn't do. How just attempting to stay awake wasn't a good strategy. Who he was and why he was doing what he was doing.. All those things.. And in the end she defeated him recognizing that he was in her dreams and that he had no real power over her. NOW... the sequel bait ending of Nightmare was of course pushed onto us by executive meddling who demanded sequels kind of messes with that message. But the original intention was to have Nancy have actually defeated Freddy and for it to all have been a "dream." I recognize that even back that far, people understood how to take a character who is seen as weak like the sterotypes of a teenage girl is supposed to be. And through good storytelling and hardship make us not only root for her. But also believe her arc, and believe in her strength. And shockingly the best Nightmare sequel brought back Nancy, hell the strongest reboot/reimanging of Nightmare did this meta thing and had Heather Langenkamp play a version of herself and sort of Nancy again. Because the character and Lagenkamps performance resonated so much with the audience. Because while Freddy might have been the mascot of the series. I feel like Nancy was the soul of it, despite the fact that the writers might have felt she was ultimately disposable. It's by the way why the reboot that happend in 2010 was in part so lackluster, because instead of being an active strong character, the Nancy character became really passive and dull. It's not the only problem with that movie but it's definitely inferior to the original in almost every way. Yes even on a special effects level because they tried to use terrible CG effects to replace super amazing practical effects.. The original Nightmare had some insane practical effects. Anyways I've ranted too long.. Hollywood needs to realize that if you tell a good story it doesn't matter whether the lead is gay, straight, black, white, asian, special needs, trans, disabled, etc etc etc.. Just make them relatable... make people understand them.. and bam people like your movie.
It has been over a decade since I’ve sat in a theatre to watch a movie. When the industry started blaming fans for not spending our hard earned money to watch their rubbish is when we called it quits. How have we come to a place where the companies are blaming the consumers for putting out bad products?
Dear Clifton:.. This was a legit awesome episode and it *deserves NO-Less-than 2500% MORE* "likes"!!! I've been following your work on YT((albeit rather casually)), since my exciting and delightful happenstance discovery of you on Triggernometry(( ...?a little over a year ago, I think? )), and I love what you're doing! _Keep 'Doing The Due'!_ _This podcast NEEDS TO BLOW UP!!!_
This is a really nice conversation/interview. Nail on the head. Gary.... you have a well grounded humbleness with attitude. Clifton.... wonderfully articulate and thoughtful host. Nice insights.
It's true what Clifton is saying and what Kamran during a Doomcock stream was saying that look out for not going nuts just because a person of color or a woman is cast. But they have pushed agenda so much that I am now on my guard everytime a woman or a person of color is in a cast. There's alarm bells in my head thinking "is this woke"? And I wish I didn't have that thinking and I'm trying push these thoughts out when I realise what I'm thinking. But at the end of the day I realise I'm too hard on myself because they keep doing it and they make no apologies. When you watch the Obi-Wan trailer and you see the black female inquisitor jumping all around, you realise what it's gonna be about. I've been burned so many times. And I cannot give them the benefit of the doubt. But like Clifton says, it's a sad thing because we didn't think about this at all a few years ago. Hollywood has essentialy sent racial tension back 50 years by race bending and sex bending. And tokenism. And people of color basically act as place holders for a political agenda instead of merit. I wonder how these actors feel, do they realise this is happening? Do some of them feel justified cause they "were held back"? Anyway this is a strange unfortunate situation.
I agree with Clifton, each time I see a minority race, female or non-heterosexual my bullshit detectors goes to full alert. Once I discover they are skilled and are acting in a well written role I relax and enjoy the entertainment, but until then my early warning system is on red alert status and I am ready to abandon the entertainment at the slightest provocation. I call it woke PTSD, similar to a vet hearing a commercial helicopter and freezing up in terror.
Hail, Clifton! Thank you for being another of the growing voices of reason & maturity these days, that we are badly in need of. I hate to admit that I just recently found your channel and happily subscribed to it. Great interview with Gary! Thank you for a great video!
I'm in my mid 40s. I remember 15 years ago saying "you know, in ten or fifteen years from now, I don't even think race is going to be something that's talked about all that much. It just won't be an issue." I believed it because that's how it appeared to be moving with the generation that was after me (older millennials). When I'd see kids hanging out, there was a mix of them in there. When they were listening to music, you'd hear hip-hop, hard rock, etc. Things WERE moving in the right direction, naturally. Now, a decade plus later, it seems that things have regressed, but in reality they haven't. It's the very people that are beating the drums of diversity and inclusivity that are gaslighting the world convincing them that "America is just as bad now as it's every been." It's disgusting and they're ruining everything for everyone.
I want to add something very important. Back when Rey was first introduced, my daughter and I were ecstatic to go see this new version of Luke that she could identify with a look up to. For context, and objectively speaking, I’ll say that my daughter is a better looking, smarter, more athletic version of her dad. On the surface, Rey represented these things perfectly. I was 7 when I first saw Star Wars with my dad. My daughter was 10 or 11. By the end of that film, the lack of reverence for the hero’s journey, even at her age, caused my daughter to subconsciously AND consciously reject EVERYTHING about how they portrayed Rey…and I didn’t really have to say anything.
Clifton hit the nail on the head when he said that this woke shit creates bigots out of everyone. One thing Clifton isn't right about, in my eyes, is that this process has already reached its endgame. Some names.... Will Smith, Morgan Freeman, Wesley Snipes, Laurence Fishburn, Denzel Washington, Eddie Murphy, Samuel L. Jackson... I am 36, and in the world I grew up in, which wasn't perfect in race relations at all, these were among the most respected and beloved actors among white people. They were only black to us white people in the sense that their skin was a bit darker than ours. Fast forward to 2022, I have two questions. 1) How many black actors enjoy prominence like any of the aforementioned? 2) How many of the famous black actors now, are only black in skin tone, and not black in terms of their entirety? What I'm saying is that elite black actors are now only playing roles that are designed from the bottom up for black people. Look at all if those I listed earlier. Those guys player parts that could be played by a white man, dialogue tweaked a little. Nowadays, there are parts for blacks (victims of oppression) and parts for whites (oppressors). It's stale, it's boring, it isn't representative of our culture, and it's offensive to white people to be judged so harshly - and that's why whites are becoming more racist. Great show guys, keep fighting that good fight for equality and peace.
I listened to a pod about a similar topic the other day and the guest (can’t remember his name) said “Make comics for people that want to read comics, not for people you want to read comics”. So true and can be applied to all forms of entertainment under assault from the woke shite.
This was an absolute amazing conversation by two extremely intelligent men. I hope you guys get together more because this was amazing and legends. Thank you both for teaching people what a lot of people have forgotten about.
Deconstruction and subversion of tropes and narratives (assuming highly competent creators) can be, and has been, useful, thought provoking, and/or creatively interesting, when the mainstream is where the old/classic tropes and narratives live. What Clifton said about the potential usefulness of Ray's diminutiveness as a signal of her weakness making the audience underestimate her, thus making the hero's journey potentially even more satisfying was true, and has been done to great effect, decades ago. I remember seeing the tiny pretty blond girl running from a guy into an a dark alley at the beginning of Buffy, and her being revealed as the monstrous predator (vampire) being a surprise (and then there was Buffy herself being a tiny teenager with great powers). There was Alien/s and T2 and Kill Bill and Nikita and Alias and Storm and so forth. Star Wars itself used Yoda to fool Luke (and the audience) based on expectations of what a powerful Jedi should look like. Earlier MCU showed Natasha consciously manipulating her captors into underestimating her in order to get information, then breaking character and showing what she's really doing when she was needed elsewhere. Nowadays, though? If I see a small woman, I expect her to be able to kick the asses of men double her size and with twice her experience (even without superpowers), because that's the mainstream narrative. What would be subversive is to have a woman get her ass kicked in a Hollywood movie. But what they're doing now is not surprising or subversive, it's boring and cringe, and I'm a woman who would like to see female characters be allowed to be full, well rounded characters with non-cutesy flaws who actually struggle and fail and make mistakes and learn from them. This current crop isn't clever, or thought provoking, or even a proper power fantasy, because if the characters are perfect and awesome throughout a story, they're not relatable, they're annoying. Seeing people whose favorite movies, books, video games, comics etc. feature some of the strongest "diverse" characters ever written be dismissed as bigots of one sort or another for not appreciating this low-effort low-value slop is infuriating to me, regardless of how many oppression boxes I happen to technically tick, because it's not about the boxes ticked, on or off screen, it's about the quality of the story, and solid storytelling, that can be universally applicable and timeless, should be something that modern storytellers aspire to, and that audiences should be able to demand without being publicly berated and demeaned by the creators.
Axel Foley, Indiana Jones, Luke Skywalker, Daniel la Russo, rocky Balboa and Marty mcfly were iconic 80' s characters that were cool and these transcended race
They new Ryan Reynolds movie "The Adam Project" brought me back to 1980s Disney movies, the villian not hardcore enough for me but I actually enjoyed a movie again, as did my kids!
It really started shifting into overdrive after the election of Obama. A lot of people truly believed that his election was going to change things. When it didn't, and he continued most of the policies of Bush, he started facing a lot of legitimate criticism. However, most of that criticism was able to be dismissed and buried by simply labeling his critics as racists. When the powers that be saw how effective it was, they started using it more and more.
Chris Gore talked about it on one of Drinkers Superchats. It used to be that we wanted characters we could empathise with, regardless of colour, gender, etc. Now it's about relating with characters. That need stems from narcissism, that lack of ability to empathise, and only focus on yourself.
1:00:25 Ahsoka Tano is a great example of exactly that. When she was introduced in the Clone Wars series, she was portrayed as an annoying little sister who is snippy and won't listen to good advice. People hated her character, I mean for one she was new, and they made her not particularly likable on purpose, so that they could give her one of the coolest development arcs in Star Wars. She is everything and then some that the writers wanted Ray to be. She is all that because we saw her fail and sometimes due to her own arrogance, but then she learned and developed and became better, wiser, more mature while maintaining an edge of sorts but over time that edge was a part of her charm.
Wow! First time listener - You have a beautiful way with words and a keen insight on the state of culture. I could have easily listened for another hour.
Hey man, you comment at 10:30, about how people will start rejecting actors and actress because of the color of their skin because of all of this crap over the last few years. 100% correct. My own brother now wants nothing to do with black people in any way. He will stop watching a movie if he sees a black guy. He will change TV shows if he sees a black person. He used to not give a shit. And it breaks my heart
I first came across Gary on Every Frame a Pause, debating MCU Spider-Man and the ins and outs of comic book adaptions to film. He brings an obvious passion to fandom and it is contagious. Need to listen to more of his stuff.
8:35 I still don't get this. When you said 'jilted lover', that's basically what I remember. But what I recall being the *real* essential root cause, was that the 'gamer' community was frustrated with the ongoing buying of review scores in magazines by major publishers. The frustration was that, not only couldn't you just figure out if a game was good or not--because anything big was given an inflated rating paid for by access and NDA agreements beforehand--but it was skewing the entire field of reviews, and punishing studios who were sometimes having incentive structures tied to review scores that were being inflated and manipulated in this way. In addition, Sony, particularly (but not exclusively) was playing around with fake guerilla advertising campaigns. They'd pay content creators, or have paid employees pose as content creators to start astroturfing for their products. Against that backdrop, the scandal was 90% about the idea that someone was writing good reviews because their boyfriend was on the dev team, or something like that. The specifics weren't the point, really. 8% of it was the sad fact that many gamers were lonely boys who didn't know how to talk to girls and felt sad and angry at the idea that somebody was getting laid. 2% was about how a 3rd wheel to the relationship was being creepy and trying to get some kind of revenge. The idea that misogyny had anything to do with any of this was bullshit. The corporate side took note of the power that misogyny had to make people freak out in the public sphere, and helped collude with the activists in the gaming press to make the story about that and *not* about corporate collusion with the gaming press. Part of the reason we're here today is that american and international companies have been pushing division and hatred for their own goals. I think in many cases they're now aware of it and desperately trying to turn the tide, but they've created a cheap corporate rainbow religion of acceptance which has been used the way they use all their other astro-turf programs--to start wealth transfers that corporations can parasitize. Gamer gate was part of a strategy that was developing to insulate and insure corporations against public backlash, by setting up a 'fall guy' for any failure of quality or relevance. Now, if a big investment product fails, the corporation can say it's due to a hidden mass of evil people who are phobic or hateful. Then they get a second shot at a profit by stoking people's outrage, in the hope that they'll virtue signal in protest to the imaginary hate, and the film will succeed, regardless. What's breaking down is that they've helped engineer a large coalition of people who think they're socially aware and want justice, but are actually immature and looking for various kinds of revenge or vicarious power fantasies. They also helped stoke a cottage industry of people like Aneeta Sarkesian who were looking to establish themselves in a career, but found a way to gain followers and attention by overfocusing on social justice issues. With the increased use of social media, the astroturfing and the selective promotion of content creators that focused on outrage, the corporate incentives have driven us toward constant insane sloshing back and forth between being mad at manufactured agitprop.
“Ancient astronauts didn't build the pyramids. Human beings built the pyramids, because they're clever and they work hard.” ― Gene of the Red berry Cheers.
I'd love to see an interview with Eric July aboit his launching of Rippaverse which has revealed that the fans don't have a problem with A black owned comic book company but the progressives hate that a black man with the wrong opinions writing a hugely successful comic book the fandom loves.
Clifton I remember you from Kevin smith and Marc’s podcast from years ago at the start of this stuff dividing us. I loved you and Kevin smith/Marc back then tremendously, but since then I have slowly veered away from Marc and Kevin because they seem to either want to avoid these topics completely, or just seem to like things without wanting to further explore the “ugly” parts of content. And with the ugly increasing, it almost hurt watching them without addressing anything and seemingly to mindlessly just like everything they watched. It’s awesome to see you talk to nerdrotic and see him for what he is and give him a chance. Instead of just hurling the same alt right weird insults people seem to do. Thanks so much for spreading conversation. Awesome. You got a fan and sub today my man keep this up.
Smith is stuck in the machine and he still wants to make movies so he has to preach the woke nonsense. It’s funny as I just watched clerks 2 yesterday - he would be canceled immediately today if he wrote that script today
Remember that scene in "The Last Jedi" where Ray was in the gunner seat on the Millenium Falcon and she pulls off a shot that takes down TWO Tie Fighters? Yeah, that was the best.....
Fantastic conversation that hits so many true notes. I’ve been a Star Wars fan for over 20 years and the state of the franchise is absolutely embarrassing. The recent films and live action shows pissed me off to such a level that it inspired me to try to rewrite The Book of Boba Fett. If you can’t join them, beat them!
Followed over from Nerdrotic. Great podcast. Not just because of Gary. The future is bright for this sorely needed talent. New fan and subscriber of Clifton. Would enjoy seeing you among the many talents on Friday Night Tights !! Well done and well met.
speaking about black actors in comedy, i really miss shows like "my wife and the kids" and Marlon Wayans movies , i don't get why black people are shown today as fragile and hyper sensitive in movies and shows, it's really hard to relate to them with too much perfectness and making such flawless characters who are boring as hell. "my wife and the kids" was my personal favorite, and I'm from totally different culture, but still i could relate to it on the human level.
I'm glad I found you. Your analysis and commentary are thoughtful and well reasoned and better you have an excellent voice for youtube. It's pleasant, easy to listen to and I could listen all day. No offense to Gary but listening to the two of you is like listening to Buddy Hackett and James Earl Jones hold a conversation.
If drinker and nerdrotic are the generals in a war for good entertainment, Clifton is the poet who conveys the conflict for future generations. New sub from me
Very well said
If those guys are the generals then we are truly screwed.
@@SirBlackReeds Lol just about to say the exact same thing.
@@SirBlackReeds how so? explain
@ninvusoogoar6098 that comment was probably just negativity for its own sake. Drinker, Nerdrotic, and the “Fandom Menace” in general have made significant waves in the counterculture pushback
The establishment institutions are years away from changing, but the fact that the new Indiana Jones “and the Destruction of Legacy” has flopped so hard is a perfect example that the tide actually is turning
Gary is a great example of how people who never interested in the culture war got cooped into the battle ground, and they pissed the wrong people. Nerdom is passionate about thier space, and they will defend that space from anyone. This exactly happened to me during Gamer Gate. I just wanted to play video game in peace...
I missed Gamer Gate because I actually wasn't big into where games where going with the HUD that told you your temperature and where to go at all times having everything explained, super easy games, flash button commands during big cinematic cutscenes. I couldn't even call half of western games, games. They're often interactive movies rather than games. So me and a couple friends got into classic gaming going to Sega Master, Nintendo FM or NES, MSX/MSX2, Sega Mega Drive/Genesis, SNES/SFC, Sega Saturn, Sony PlayStation, N64, Nintendo Gamecube, Sony PlayStation 2, Gameboy, Gameboy Color and Gameboy Advance. We stayed within that, Super Mario Maker on Wii U and The Nintendo Switch with Legend Of Zelda Breath Of The Wild and Super Mario Odyssey brought me back at the end of 2017 and later got filled into the lore of Zoey Quinn, Anita Snarkessian, Polygon, IGN, Kotaku etc. I never really read game reviews outside of Nintendo Power and Game Informer. But wow.
same here. i just wanted to be left alone and play video games and live my life, but overnight i was now suddenly a misogynist (and probable rapist) and speeding towards racist and trans-phobe. in a very short amount of time i went from "i dont want to talk politics ever" to "Trump 2016!!!" they made a lifelong enemy out of me.
Haaa... the Great Battle of The Gamer Gate of 2014... I was just a young lad in Belgium waiting for fighting game releases when Game Journalists from America and tumblristas fell upon me telling me Dead or Alive was made for lone, aggressive, mysoginistic, gatekeeping loosers incel...
Looking at them now beeing aggressively and toxic towards people and gatekeeping the hell out of american entertainement is very lovely of them.
@Bill Bixby You fucking liar shut the fuck up. "We're inserting dogshit political propaganda into everything and ruining the quality of the games, but no one's stopping you from playing in peace" You doubletalking woke liar. Your ideology ruins everything it touches, and you don't have the decency to ever admit you're wrong because you're actively lying. You're not just mistaken. How does it feel to have to hide and pretend you weren't proudly calling yourself woke before it became unfashionable to do so? How does it feel to be just another rat fleeing the ship that no one who thinks like you has ever built?
Yep and the same thing happened to many of us in his age group. The last thing we want to do is fight a culture war and talk about race and gender all day but they forced our hand
This is probably the most slept on podcast I’ve come across lately. Great conversations on culture every time!
@brokenumbrella- hundred percent agree. Clifton is just natural as an interviewer, this will be a great one too.
Clifton is terrific and it’s only a matter of time before his podcast blows up. 👍🏻
yeah it's that soft smooth jazz music he plays on the intro.
Agree completely. Clinton’s podcast is great
Yep. First time youtube recommended a video of his, and easily became a subscribed channel. Can't wait to watch more in the future.
I am a very girly very straight woman in my 40s, and yes, I've bought into some feminist stories in the past. But you know what I've been watching lately? Old westerns from the 50s and 60s. And that was never a genre I ever cared about at all. But I think it's totally because I crave to see manly men doing manly things in a manly way. We are all starved for that right now.
We can't have sexy women anymore, either. Can't pander to the infamous "male gaze;" can't show male sexuality in any positive light. I'm not saying that's the only thing that matters, obviously (I hope it's obvious!), but, you know, a little sexiness has its place in fantasy, too. The male gaze theory is demeaning for everybody -- making the worst assumptions about men and underestimating women's capacity of eliciting empathy and admiration as full human beings. It just so happens that we evil men tend to enjoy seeing beautiful women in our escapist entertainement; go figure.
we all need heroes and a lot of us want to be heroes. This is not a bad thing. We've made the hero the monster somehow.
Can you imagine a modern John Wayne trying to be cast?
@@Doutsoldome You can't pander to the male gaze, but you better believe Hollywood will pander to the male gays.
@@JimSelfisHere Im sure Marion would be fine ;)
Eloquence and openness is hallmark for what I’ve heard from Clifton this far. So weary of the divisiveness the mainstream calls “normal.”
I’ve got black, Hispanic, white, lesbian, and Asian neighbors and we all help out when it snows or if someone’s car battery dies et al. We talk and chat and share and keep things light and positive because we all live together. This… I repeat that THIS is human nature!
Working as intelligent and humane human beings seems to be a natural offshoot for humanity. Unless we are all suffering under the thumb of tyranny or catastrophic natural disaster, humans band and bond.
So, why am I constantly fed this claptrap that tells me I’m supposed to fear, despise, hate, dismiss my fellow cro-magnons?
Fuck that.
This is a terrific standalone discussion and both Clifton and Gary are standard bearers for the vast majority of Americans who are waking up from the woke.
Ideologues are dangerous creatures.
It always, ALWAYS leads to destruction, chaos, and death whenever someone truly believes they are walking a holy path because they can only support this notion by spitting on anything that is “the other.”
This is endemic of psychosis.
We can and do behave better than what we are being told, my friends. Don’t let some millionaire asshat dictate your reality.
Gary says he doesn't know when this happened. The shift into identity obsession.
I think it's very much tied to social media and how younger generations have basically grown up online. With avatars. Constantly looking at themselves in the Facebook / Instagram "mirror". So from around 2006. Learning narcissism. Learning how to construct and control a reality, that isn't actual reality. A safe space with no diverging opinions and no need to learn tolerance and co-existence. You can simply unfriend or unfollow people you don't agree with. That's not healthy. And it causes division.
This way of looking at the world bleeds over into their offline lives. They feel the need to constantly insert themselves into anything and everything. They view everything through a narcissistic lense and judge everything out of its context, historic or otherwise. They get offended so easily when they're challenged or confronted with how some people are different than them. There's a direct line from the behavior we are taught online on social media platform (and things like RUclips) to the sad and sick concept of cancel culture.
My humble analysis. And I'm someone who's a liberal and very concerned about how the political fringes on both sides, not only in America, are getting more and more insane, emotional and anti-science. "Thanks a lot" Zuckerberg...
This has been creeping in for over a century now, when the communist Marxists of the Frankfurt school got together to try and reignite the communist revolution the realised that to sell this in America it would need to be a issue of race in Stead of a class struggle. What we are seeing is part of the plan, the destruction of western media is an important part of it.
Tolerance is what got us here. Almost no one cared what or who you were. Then they started shoving tolerance down are throats. I use to tolerate people, now i and others are being forced to f××king hate people i didn't before. At this point i avoid everyone who isn't like me, its not worth it for anyone who didn't know me before to know me now. There's just to me risks. They people who started this won, they just didn't get it they way they wanted it, unless someones in my face they don't exist. At this point if your not friend, family or something that caught my attention, you don't matter to me. I no longer care anything about you. I at this point will guard what little there is left a like that isn't destroyed and everything else can just burn.
@@kylejustus1605 It was Liberals. We can blame 'things' and there is an element of truth to that but the people are Liberals. To them an extension of everything is 'absurd'. All you have to do is look at the type of people moving away from the left/ liberalism/ wokism compared to how many people move from the right or the centre towards the left/ wokeism etc.
Look at Posie Parker, great lady but a feminist, and is utterly distraught at wokeism. Still blames 'men' despite the fact at College age over 80% of the people identifying as progressive are women, over 80% of Transgender people are biocidal women. Despite people very politely begging her to stop blaming 'men' and that if she wants to reverse that side of things , she'll need good normal blokes, she carries on blaming men. It's not one gender or the other that's caused this it's Western Liberals.
We'll get what we deserve. Nothing is free and we will pay the price for thinking its hip to be over tolerant.
Everything that happens since 2014 is for the Great Reset 2030
That is part of it.
The problems we have today is the child of 3rd wave identitarian feminism.
"Toxic fandom" is like watching an episode of kitchen nightmares where Gordon tells the restaurants staff that there perfect and doing nothing wrong and it is in fact all the fault of the customers. 😂 there's a reason you've never seen that episode, because it doesn't exist.
Loved this conversation! Gary is right this is your calling and whatever else you decide to do with your life please continue with your commentary. You are so eloquent and well spoken with your content. I look forward to more !
He's right about 2010 being the beginning of divisive agenda push. This is what happened around that time in gaming specifically: gamers started calling out companies about the greedy microtransactions, casino game design, questionable relations with the media, and distain for opinionated gamers. The industry fired back by sowing seeds of division, because it couldn't handle direct criticism from the consumer/online consumer groups. Instead of fixing things, being flexible, and having discourse, you were labeled this and that by shady salesmen, PR firms and later, useful idiots. The rest is history.
Micro-transactions and complaining about them got popular post gamergate. Furthermore the people screeching the highest about “greed” in the industry mostly share the same opinions with all the news sites that tried to marginalize gamers.
there is a recent article in bloomberg about "How GAMERS defeated NFT's" Oct 17, 2022. Thought you might find it interesting but you'll have to search for it on a site that reposts paywalled articles
this is true not just for gaming but other sectors as well i'd say - no one wanted to fix actual problems so they pushed us into fixating on other things.
I'm so glad the RUclips algorithm worked so that it recommended this channel. Clifton you are such an intelligent, articulate, and experienced individual bringing such a needed perspective on the industry to light. It must take a lot of integrity to take a stand when it could be so much easier to compromise yourself and cash large checks. Good luck with your endeavors to make independent work. I'd definitely love to see it.
Thank goodness someone said this so eloquently so I can tag along.
I'd like to echo @TylerBrunton comment - Thank you for saying what I was thinking! I am looking forward to listening to every interview on this channel!
At 22:00 I felt so connected to what Clifton is saying. I auditioned for a role in the movie "To Wong Fu, Thanks for Everything, Julie Newmar". I was in Nebraska, and they were portraying Nebraskans as dumb hicks who didn't know anything. After reading the lines, I looked at the casting director and said, "I'm struggling with this because no Nebraskan would actually say these things." She just said read it again and watched me intensely as I tried to read these horrible lines again... I didn't get the part. But I forever understood just how Hollywood viewed my home state.
Gary makes a good point about the purpose of fandom. These institutions exist to help us think past our differences. The same is true of the workplace. It used to be considered unprofessional to talk politics a work, and yet now even the workplace is being targeted as a way to divide us.
Can't have the workers demanding better if they are divided
Clifton get back on FNT soon!
Yes! Would MUCH rather have him on than the guest last Friday.(... who stayed the whole show)
And he did. Well, the real BBC lol
I was thinking about all this forced diversity crap and it dawned on me that my favourite sci fi of all time, Red Dwarf, had 2 of the 4 main actors that were black. It had never occurred to me before. I just hadn't thought about it because we just didn't care. It was a hilarious show with some great sci fi stories.
And that is the most enlightening point! We had developed as a society around the world not completely without racism, however with first world countries being mostly colour blind. In recent years, we have been retaught how to see colour, and in some cases to support segregation! How insane is that? Oh, and yes, go cat
The boys from the Dwarf!!!!!! That show was epic. Did some volunteering back in the day when they were showing it on PBS stations. Got to meet Bob Llewellyn, and Craig Charles, one time when they came to promote. And another time Danny John-Jules and Bob. We were all fans of Red Dwarf on the phone banks, and they treated us all after work with gratitude for having us as fans, even though most of us were sperging out.
@@gryphon9507 wow mate!! I’m impressed! Spent many an hour late at night when I used to watch abc, watching red dwarf. Top show, nice that you where able to meet some of the guys though!
@@gryphon9507 Danny John Jules was a regular at my nightclub back in the late 1990s, great guy.
@@roguetrooper5288 Hell of guy. Real gent.
Gary and Clifton having a legit conversation; beautiful.
Know I'm going to love this before I even start. Clifton was first introduced to me on Gary's show Friday Night Tights. HAIL the Fandom Fellowship
You fixed the link to the Intro music! You're an angel! (I'm a woman.) Thanks a million. These are great interviews, Clifton. Your talk with VDH is my favorite. I hope you'll talk to Heather Mac Donald, maybe the only pundit qualified to cover classical music, lit, and ballet. She's currently chronicling the destruction of all 3 fields. I think your audience would love her, and you 2 would really hit it off. Keep it up!
This is one of the best chats I've seen with Nerdrotic. Enjoy all his content but seeing him in this more human light, fantastic!
10:45 I actually recognize myself in that. The kind of "diversity" in movies etc that I wouldn't have thought twice about 10 years ago can now actually turn me off because it's been slowly associated with aggressive wokeness in my brain for 8 years. You feel like a kid being force fed broccoli because it's "good for you". Same reason I'd skip a movie if the actor brags in interviews about how the movie is actually about "toxic masculinity" etc.
Just stumbled on this podcast. Was already a fan of Gary, now I am a fan of Clifton. This was an enjoyable real conversation between two people that could talk about anything in our pop culture and not descend into name calling. Respectful and honest talk is what people are starving for. Liked and subscribed keep up the strong work Clifton.
"People who want to focus on every minutiae on why we're different, and not why we're the same" is my favorite quote from this video. I wholeheartedly agree!
It’s a shame about Star Trek being dead, Duncan would be a great fit for a Trek show because I think it really needs actors from a classical background to work. The best Trek actors generally had a theater background.
I always think of real Trek fondly, but with today's shenanigans it hard to separate the two as the modern crap always creeps into my thoughts when watching the classics. The show Picard did not help one little bit.
@@terrylandess6072 really sad to think we won't ever get a chance see the classic characters be in a great show or movie again.
@@terrylandess6072 I could be wrong and overlooking some secret recipe Seth MacFarlane is inserting into his show, but this current season of The Orville has contained some of the most divisive current day subjects around, but he's twisted it in a way that old Trek would have so as to not leave out half the audience politically. I hope it gets a 4th season as that show is where the hope is and where the true Star Trek lies.
As we said in the London of my youth, you and Gary are "The Don." All the best, from northern England (the part Americans don't visit)
Im an American and I love northern England. I'm a big fan of Northumberland and Newcastle. Great area and plan on coming back again soon. Cheers.
@@theargonath7938 Glad to hear it!
Two brave, smart men doing such important work gives me hope. DIE and CRT are poison to the arts, and education. Clifton, I am an actor too and I feel you. Gary, great shout out for the 12 Steps. Am so grateful to be working them myself and they have changed my life so radically. Keep working to change the things you can, you two. Wishing you much serenity as you do.
Shout out to Gary!! Right on for having him on your show.
Gary has been a beacon of sanity to me for years. Glad to see him laying it on the line on your channel. Instant sub. I like your style,man. Smooth.
Oof.
I´m glad I read Othello before watching this, that spoiler would have been devastating.
40:20
To the point of gamergate: Gamergate started much earlier than this sex scandal, where a lady got a lot of favors doing bed work.
Gaming magazines had come under scrutiny before that, as people realized the games were worse than the reviews.
It then came out that even more writers were just miserable and it quickly became apparent that the "media" were actually no longer interested in the truth (at least the majority of writers)
I found it surprising that many of the people whom read outlandish magazines knew it was all BS, but they got a kick out of it. Different strokes ya know? What's sad is when one changes from reputable to suspect and cringe worthy.
Just people being people. A normal conversation. So rare this days
Man, so i´ve watched the Drinker Podcast and i´m half way through the Nerdrodic one, and you already earned my sub. Not only cuz you have a clear healthy mind and see things how they really are, but you´re also so chilled, laidback and overall very eloquent. Keep goin brother! ;)
Ditto!
Now if only the same could be said about Nerdrotic.
Around the 48-50 min Clifton talking about keeping quiet & lying to yourself and eroding your soul reminded me of things Andrew Klavan has said about being a writer in Hollywood. Glad you’re not allowing that to happen!
I love Gary on FNT and also his Nerdrotic posts.
But it's always a pleasure to listen to him, as a guest, sit and talk about culture and where it's heading.
Thanks, Clifton.
Hope to see you back on FNT.
Great interview! Chock full of thoughtful insight and experience. Thank you.
I went to see The Batman this week. Early on in the film there is a scene in which a gang of criminals assault an Asian-American man. Everyone in the gang is wearing whiteface ('enacting Whiteness' as the CRT people say) and the one gang member who is conflicted about the assault is black. Symbolically, he has only half of his face painted white. Sadly, I don't think Wokeness in entertainment is going away any time soon. It's just getting more subtle in its application.
I believe Wokeness has reached the high water mark. The flood is receding, but even a receding flood continues doing damage.
I hate to say it, but you’re right about the subtlety. I personally enjoyed The Batman, but I didn’t pick up on that bit until you mentioned it. They could’ve handled that part better.
@@eyeofbrown1387 there was also blatant wokeism. When cat woman says "rich white men"
Wow I didn’t even notice that
@@DFMoray Exactly. Woke-ness isn't going away, it's just getting more sophisticated.
Garys story about his father in law gave me chills. Fandom has been labeled toxic for a few years now. It's pretty sad.
About a year ago, prior to discovering Nerdrotic, I thought I was going cazy being the only one noticing all that shit in movies and shows.
29:59 I think Clifton really hits that nihilism aspect of current culture. There is huge cynicism that runs through everything.
Thoroughly enjoyable conversation. Thank you Clifton.
That children joke, so grim and so funny. Nice one Clifton!
Mr. Duncan....a voice made for oration, smooth as honey
Always good to hear your point of view on things happening within your sphere Clifton. I'm glad you're out here doing your own podcasts because you are a dynamic force that when you were FNT you were fantastic! I think you can bring some great insight...the Romeo & Juliet reference was brilliant and it shows why characterization isn't just about representation.
I said that to a producer once in 2016 "I'll be whatever you want me to be" it was a cluster of a situation.
I subscribed. For 2 reasons. One, you sir, have a clue.
And 2, come on... if Nerdrotic recommends ya, I'm on it! LMAO
Fan of both these guys.
Bravo! Nerdrotic is a smart guy with a good channel.
Great conversation amongst adults. Down to earth, honest and refreshing to hear.
You know your last bit on a female having a hero's journey.. You know a movie that you might not think about it being the case but totally has that in it? The original Nightmare on Elm Street. Like really it's in there, watch it.
Nancy Thompson starts the movie as this young teenager who is thrust into horrific events beyond her ability to control or fight. She starts out the movie young, naive, and completely at Freddy's mercy. Near the end when she realizes that she can't rely on outside help, she turns to books and knowledge of dreams and booby traps to help her.
Through out the movie she learned through failure, be they her own or her friends. She learned what Freddy could do what he couldn't do. How just attempting to stay awake wasn't a good strategy. Who he was and why he was doing what he was doing.. All those things..
And in the end she defeated him recognizing that he was in her dreams and that he had no real power over her. NOW... the sequel bait ending of Nightmare was of course pushed onto us by executive meddling who demanded sequels kind of messes with that message. But the original intention was to have Nancy have actually defeated Freddy and for it to all have been a "dream."
I recognize that even back that far, people understood how to take a character who is seen as weak like the sterotypes of a teenage girl is supposed to be. And through good storytelling and hardship make us not only root for her. But also believe her arc, and believe in her strength.
And shockingly the best Nightmare sequel brought back Nancy, hell the strongest reboot/reimanging of Nightmare did this meta thing and had Heather Langenkamp play a version of herself and sort of Nancy again. Because the character and Lagenkamps performance resonated so much with the audience. Because while Freddy might have been the mascot of the series. I feel like Nancy was the soul of it, despite the fact that the writers might have felt she was ultimately disposable.
It's by the way why the reboot that happend in 2010 was in part so lackluster, because instead of being an active strong character, the Nancy character became really passive and dull. It's not the only problem with that movie but it's definitely inferior to the original in almost every way. Yes even on a special effects level because they tried to use terrible CG effects to replace super amazing practical effects.. The original Nightmare had some insane practical effects.
Anyways I've ranted too long.. Hollywood needs to realize that if you tell a good story it doesn't matter whether the lead is gay, straight, black, white, asian, special needs, trans, disabled, etc etc etc.. Just make them relatable... make people understand them.. and bam people like your movie.
It has been over a decade since I’ve sat in a theatre to watch a movie. When the industry started blaming fans for not spending our hard earned money to watch their rubbish is when we called it quits. How have we come to a place where the companies are blaming the consumers for putting out bad products?
lol, no doubt you still watch all the crap produced, but now you just stream it (legally AND illegally)
Clifton and Gary: You guys need to do a regular show together! Great stuff.
Dear Clifton:..
This was a legit awesome episode and it *deserves NO-Less-than 2500% MORE* "likes"!!!
I've been following your work on YT((albeit rather casually)), since my exciting and delightful happenstance discovery of you on Triggernometry(( ...?a little over a year ago, I think? )), and I love what you're doing!
_Keep 'Doing The Due'!_
_This podcast NEEDS TO BLOW UP!!!_
Discovered Nerdrotic from the Critical Drinker and now through this Clifton and another wonderful channel!
This is a really nice conversation/interview. Nail on the head. Gary.... you have a well grounded humbleness with attitude. Clifton.... wonderfully articulate and thoughtful host.
Nice insights.
I love Nerdrotic episodes with you. It is refreshing to have your on FNT.
How did I miss this? My day is made! (But I was shocked-SHOCKED-to learn that Gary owned a comic shop.)
To quote Brian Cranston, the audience is always right. Too bad modern woke studios and writers chose to ignore that simple fact.
Oof, Bryan Cranston recently revealed himself to be an NPC.
It's true what Clifton is saying and what Kamran during a Doomcock stream was saying that look out for not going nuts just because a person of color or a woman is cast. But they have pushed agenda so much that I am now on my guard everytime a woman or a person of color is in a cast. There's alarm bells in my head thinking "is this woke"? And I wish I didn't have that thinking and I'm trying push these thoughts out when I realise what I'm thinking. But at the end of the day I realise I'm too hard on myself because they keep doing it and they make no apologies. When you watch the Obi-Wan trailer and you see the black female inquisitor jumping all around, you realise what it's gonna be about. I've been burned so many times. And I cannot give them the benefit of the doubt.
But like Clifton says, it's a sad thing because we didn't think about this at all a few years ago. Hollywood has essentialy sent racial tension back 50 years by race bending and sex bending. And tokenism. And people of color basically act as place holders for a political agenda instead of merit. I wonder how these actors feel, do they realise this is happening? Do some of them feel justified cause they "were held back"? Anyway this is a strange unfortunate situation.
I agree with Clifton, each time I see a minority race, female or non-heterosexual my bullshit detectors goes to full alert. Once I discover they are skilled and are acting in a well written role I relax and enjoy the entertainment, but until then my early warning system is on red alert status and I am ready to abandon the entertainment at the slightest provocation. I call it woke PTSD, similar to a vet hearing a commercial helicopter and freezing up in terror.
Has you both go deeper here, this conversation is in the same league as the recent Critical Drinker\Baggage claim conversation. More please!
Hail, Clifton! Thank you for being another of the growing voices of reason & maturity these days, that we are badly in need of. I hate to admit that I just recently found your channel and happily subscribed to it. Great interview with Gary! Thank you for a great video!
I am now a subscriber. Hello from Australia! Great content!
I'm in my mid 40s. I remember 15 years ago saying "you know, in ten or fifteen years from now, I don't even think race is going to be something that's talked about all that much. It just won't be an issue."
I believed it because that's how it appeared to be moving with the generation that was after me (older millennials). When I'd see kids hanging out, there was a mix of them in there. When they were listening to music, you'd hear hip-hop, hard rock, etc. Things WERE moving in the right direction, naturally.
Now, a decade plus later, it seems that things have regressed, but in reality they haven't. It's the very people that are beating the drums of diversity and inclusivity that are gaslighting the world convincing them that "America is just as bad now as it's every been." It's disgusting and they're ruining everything for everyone.
big fan of both these guys, as an actor and avid comic reader this is the crossover i needed
Awesome, you are a great host - I love these conversations about the current state of Hollywood/Woke gender/identity politics ruining everything
I want to add something very important. Back when Rey was first introduced, my daughter and I were ecstatic to go see this new version of Luke that she could identify with a look up to. For context, and objectively speaking, I’ll say that my daughter is a better looking, smarter, more athletic version of her dad.
On the surface, Rey represented these things perfectly.
I was 7 when I first saw Star Wars with my dad. My daughter was 10 or 11.
By the end of that film, the lack of reverence for the hero’s journey, even at her age, caused my daughter to subconsciously AND consciously reject EVERYTHING about how they portrayed Rey…and I didn’t really have to say anything.
Clifton hit the nail on the head when he said that this woke shit creates bigots out of everyone. One thing Clifton isn't right about, in my eyes, is that this process has already reached its endgame. Some names.... Will Smith, Morgan Freeman, Wesley Snipes, Laurence Fishburn, Denzel Washington, Eddie Murphy, Samuel L. Jackson... I am 36, and in the world I grew up in, which wasn't perfect in race relations at all, these were among the most respected and beloved actors among white people. They were only black to us white people in the sense that their skin was a bit darker than ours. Fast forward to 2022, I have two questions. 1) How many black actors enjoy prominence like any of the aforementioned? 2) How many of the famous black actors now, are only black in skin tone, and not black in terms of their entirety? What I'm saying is that elite black actors are now only playing roles that are designed from the bottom up for black people. Look at all if those I listed earlier. Those guys player parts that could be played by a white man, dialogue tweaked a little. Nowadays, there are parts for blacks (victims of oppression) and parts for whites (oppressors). It's stale, it's boring, it isn't representative of our culture, and it's offensive to white people to be judged so harshly - and that's why whites are becoming more racist. Great show guys, keep fighting that good fight for equality and peace.
I listened to a pod about a similar topic the other day and the guest (can’t remember his name) said “Make comics for people that want to read comics, not for people you want to read comics”. So true and can be applied to all forms of entertainment under assault from the woke shite.
This was an absolute amazing conversation by two extremely intelligent men. I hope you guys get together more because this was amazing and legends. Thank you both for teaching people what a lot of people have forgotten about.
Occupy Wallstreet was a big driver. We came to close to uniting against "elites". Division was the chosen solution.
Deconstruction and subversion of tropes and narratives (assuming highly competent creators) can be, and has been, useful, thought provoking, and/or creatively interesting, when the mainstream is where the old/classic tropes and narratives live. What Clifton said about the potential usefulness of Ray's diminutiveness as a signal of her weakness making the audience underestimate her, thus making the hero's journey potentially even more satisfying was true, and has been done to great effect, decades ago.
I remember seeing the tiny pretty blond girl running from a guy into an a dark alley at the beginning of Buffy, and her being revealed as the monstrous predator (vampire) being a surprise (and then there was Buffy herself being a tiny teenager with great powers). There was Alien/s and T2 and Kill Bill and Nikita and Alias and Storm and so forth. Star Wars itself used Yoda to fool Luke (and the audience) based on expectations of what a powerful Jedi should look like. Earlier MCU showed Natasha consciously manipulating her captors into underestimating her in order to get information, then breaking character and showing what she's really doing when she was needed elsewhere.
Nowadays, though? If I see a small woman, I expect her to be able to kick the asses of men double her size and with twice her experience (even without superpowers), because that's the mainstream narrative. What would be subversive is to have a woman get her ass kicked in a Hollywood movie. But what they're doing now is not surprising or subversive, it's boring and cringe, and I'm a woman who would like to see female characters be allowed to be full, well rounded characters with non-cutesy flaws who actually struggle and fail and make mistakes and learn from them. This current crop isn't clever, or thought provoking, or even a proper power fantasy, because if the characters are perfect and awesome throughout a story, they're not relatable, they're annoying.
Seeing people whose favorite movies, books, video games, comics etc. feature some of the strongest "diverse" characters ever written be dismissed as bigots of one sort or another for not appreciating this low-effort low-value slop is infuriating to me, regardless of how many oppression boxes I happen to technically tick, because it's not about the boxes ticked, on or off screen, it's about the quality of the story, and solid storytelling, that can be universally applicable and timeless, should be something that modern storytellers aspire to, and that audiences should be able to demand without being publicly berated and demeaned by the creators.
I would love of a movie was made, we're in they look like there going for the subvert trooper, but pull a180 and reconstruct the old ways.
Hail Gary! And nice to find and subscribe to Clifton too!
Also a shout out to Forrest Whitaker and Wesley Snipes!
Axel Foley, Indiana Jones, Luke Skywalker, Daniel la Russo, rocky Balboa and Marty mcfly were iconic 80' s characters that were cool and these transcended race
They new Ryan Reynolds movie "The Adam Project" brought me back to 1980s Disney movies, the villian not hardcore enough for me but I actually enjoyed a movie again, as did my kids!
I thought the same it reminded me of a 80s kids film. My kids and I really enjoyed it.
19:56 I love how Gary hit the soundboard even though it's not his show or channel lol
It really started shifting into overdrive after the election of Obama. A lot of people truly believed that his election was going to change things. When it didn't, and he continued most of the policies of Bush, he started facing a lot of legitimate criticism. However, most of that criticism was able to be dismissed and buried by simply labeling his critics as racists. When the powers that be saw how effective it was, they started using it more and more.
Great talk. Nice to see more and more people talking about this stuff.
Great podcast. I have so much respect for both you and Gary. 👍
This was great 👍 keep up the good conversations guys!
Chris Gore talked about it on one of Drinkers Superchats. It used to be that we wanted characters we could empathise with, regardless of colour, gender, etc. Now it's about relating with characters. That need stems from narcissism, that lack of ability to empathise, and only focus on yourself.
1:00:25 Ahsoka Tano is a great example of exactly that. When she was introduced in the Clone Wars series, she was portrayed as an annoying little sister who is snippy and won't listen to good advice. People hated her character, I mean for one she was new, and they made her not particularly likable on purpose, so that they could give her one of the coolest development arcs in Star Wars. She is everything and then some that the writers wanted Ray to be. She is all that because we saw her fail and sometimes due to her own arrogance, but then she learned and developed and became better, wiser, more mature while maintaining an edge of sorts but over time that edge was a part of her charm.
Wow! First time listener - You have a beautiful way with words and a keen insight on the state of culture. I could have easily listened for another hour.
Hey man, you comment at 10:30, about how people will start rejecting actors and actress because of the color of their skin because of all of this crap over the last few years. 100% correct. My own brother now wants nothing to do with black people in any way. He will stop watching a movie if he sees a black guy. He will change TV shows if he sees a black person. He used to not give a shit. And it breaks my heart
Thank you, Sir. We will win over those looking to divide us because of guys like you.
First time listener. I subscribed. Great show!
Will be listening regularly! Take care.
I first came across Gary on Every Frame a Pause, debating MCU Spider-Man and the ins and outs of comic book adaptions to film. He brings an obvious passion to fandom and it is contagious. Need to listen to more of his stuff.
8:35 I still don't get this. When you said 'jilted lover', that's basically what I remember. But what I recall being the *real* essential root cause, was that the 'gamer' community was frustrated with the ongoing buying of review scores in magazines by major publishers. The frustration was that, not only couldn't you just figure out if a game was good or not--because anything big was given an inflated rating paid for by access and NDA agreements beforehand--but it was skewing the entire field of reviews, and punishing studios who were sometimes having incentive structures tied to review scores that were being inflated and manipulated in this way. In addition, Sony, particularly (but not exclusively) was playing around with fake guerilla advertising campaigns. They'd pay content creators, or have paid employees pose as content creators to start astroturfing for their products.
Against that backdrop, the scandal was 90% about the idea that someone was writing good reviews because their boyfriend was on the dev team, or something like that. The specifics weren't the point, really. 8% of it was the sad fact that many gamers were lonely boys who didn't know how to talk to girls and felt sad and angry at the idea that somebody was getting laid. 2% was about how a 3rd wheel to the relationship was being creepy and trying to get some kind of revenge. The idea that misogyny had anything to do with any of this was bullshit. The corporate side took note of the power that misogyny had to make people freak out in the public sphere, and helped collude with the activists in the gaming press to make the story about that and *not* about corporate collusion with the gaming press.
Part of the reason we're here today is that american and international companies have been pushing division and hatred for their own goals. I think in many cases they're now aware of it and desperately trying to turn the tide, but they've created a cheap corporate rainbow religion of acceptance which has been used the way they use all their other astro-turf programs--to start wealth transfers that corporations can parasitize.
Gamer gate was part of a strategy that was developing to insulate and insure corporations against public backlash, by setting up a 'fall guy' for any failure of quality or relevance. Now, if a big investment product fails, the corporation can say it's due to a hidden mass of evil people who are phobic or hateful. Then they get a second shot at a profit by stoking people's outrage, in the hope that they'll virtue signal in protest to the imaginary hate, and the film will succeed, regardless. What's breaking down is that they've helped engineer a large coalition of people who think they're socially aware and want justice, but are actually immature and looking for various kinds of revenge or vicarious power fantasies. They also helped stoke a cottage industry of people like Aneeta Sarkesian who were looking to establish themselves in a career, but found a way to gain followers and attention by overfocusing on social justice issues. With the increased use of social media, the astroturfing and the selective promotion of content creators that focused on outrage, the corporate incentives have driven us toward constant insane sloshing back and forth between being mad at manufactured agitprop.
Great conversation. I first saw Clifton on FNT with Gary. You seem like a good dude. I wish you well. 🍻
“Ancient astronauts didn't build the pyramids. Human beings built the pyramids, because they're clever and they work hard.”
― Gene of the Red berry
Cheers.
I cant stand that RUclips cannot read my mind. I really would have liked to know about your channel a long time ago. Great content, sir!
I'd love to see an interview with Eric July aboit his launching of Rippaverse which has revealed that the fans don't have a problem with A black owned comic book company but the progressives hate that a black man with the wrong opinions writing a hugely successful comic book the fandom loves.
Fantastic channel! Earned a sub. Keep doing what you're doing!
Clifton I remember you from Kevin smith and Marc’s podcast from years ago at the start of this stuff dividing us. I loved you and Kevin smith/Marc back then tremendously, but since then I have slowly veered away from Marc and Kevin because they seem to either want to avoid these topics completely, or just seem to like things without wanting to further explore the “ugly” parts of content. And with the ugly increasing, it almost hurt watching them without addressing anything and seemingly to mindlessly just like everything they watched. It’s awesome to see you talk to nerdrotic and see him for what he is and give him a chance. Instead of just hurling the same alt right weird insults people seem to do. Thanks so much for spreading conversation. Awesome. You got a fan and sub today my man keep this up.
Smith is stuck in the machine and he still wants to make movies so he has to preach the woke nonsense. It’s funny as I just watched clerks 2 yesterday - he would be canceled immediately today if he wrote that script today
Remember that scene in "The Last Jedi" where Ray was in the gunner seat on the Millenium Falcon and she pulls off a shot that takes down TWO Tie Fighters?
Yeah, that was the best.....
Fantastic conversation that hits so many true notes. I’ve been a Star Wars fan for over 20 years and the state of the franchise is absolutely embarrassing.
The recent films and live action shows pissed me off to such a level that it inspired me to try to rewrite The Book of Boba Fett. If you can’t join them, beat them!
Followed over from Nerdrotic. Great podcast. Not just because of Gary. The future is bright for this sorely needed talent. New fan and subscriber of Clifton. Would enjoy seeing you among the many talents on Friday Night Tights !! Well done and well met.
I really enjoy these conversations. I'm so glad I stumbled across your channel.
speaking about black actors in comedy, i really miss shows like "my wife and the kids" and Marlon Wayans movies , i don't get why black people are shown today as fragile and hyper sensitive in movies and shows, it's really hard to relate to them with too much perfectness and making such flawless characters who are boring as hell. "my wife and the kids" was my personal favorite, and I'm from totally different culture, but still i could relate to it on the human level.
*** None of this would work if we were in a country that actually was intolerant. ***
Brilliant!
I'm glad I found you. Your analysis and commentary are thoughtful and well reasoned and better you have an excellent voice for youtube. It's pleasant, easy to listen to and I could listen all day. No offense to Gary but listening to the two of you is like listening to Buddy Hackett and James Earl Jones hold a conversation.
Came here because I saw Gary..but this was very well done. I look forward to watching more of your content. Subbed.