Ultimate Puff is definitely not a bad character anymore. Especially when players like Bassmage and somehow Hbox can take games and sets off Top players. That’s something Smash 4 or Brawl Puff dream they could actually do
The way I like to phrase it is that Ultimate Jigglypuff is *relatively* bad, in comparison to the rest of the cast, while Brawl puff and Sm4sh puff are *genuinely* bad
@@ShibuNub3305 melee puff was a top tier character along with spacies, marth, and sheik. but now, in ultimate she is still better than ssb4, but positioning in mid-high tier, which is still worse than her peak melee performance. still, but its viable, like melee's yoshi/pika/samus tier
also, some nerfs in brawl still lingers in ultimate. for example, melee rest has the insane kill power which can even kill fox/falco with grab combo rest from 0%, making puff into glass cannon shooting nukes. but in ultimate, rest kills usually on 60~70%, making the rest even more risky and puff not being able to do a insane early kill combos. and this also even made stock trades even more frequent than melee.
5:04 The Miis aren't actually under Jigglypuff, they are unranked because they were so rare in the meta the panelists couldn't rank them. The Miis were pretty bad in Smash 4 but the only one that's a contender for the worst in the game is Mii Swordfighter when restricted to 1111 moveset. (Smash 4 tournament unfortunately restricted Miis to 1111 moveset for years, but not after Ultimate they are not) Lots of people say Jigglypuff is a mid tier in Ultimate. There's even a Jigglypuff main who made Top 25 in NA.
But ultimately has roughly the same representation as Little Mac. Sadly Puff looks like is still a low tier due to lacking tools to compensafe for the lack of ground and vertical movility, range and weight. What I think Puff needs is better frame data on some, because it's very sluggish for what they do. A frame 4 N-air would do wonders for instance to have a reliable out of shield.
I appreciate the mention of the modern tier list at the end (as the one who organized and compiled the tier list). It’s nice you’re making brawl content recently
I remember playing randoms vs friends all the time in brawl and the shittiest characters to get was Ganon, CF, Jigglypuff, and Bowser. I don't remember feeling Mario or Link was that bad to play as though.
It's not right to say Falco wasn't touched with nerfs when Brawl Falco feels like a completely different character with all of his changes (combined with global changes from Brawl). Its difficult to even compare the two. The shine and dair changes were undoubtedly big nerfs though. With his new chaingrab and laser camping, he didn't turn out bad in Brawl, but I really do think it's just a coincidence that he ended up high on the tier list of both games.
Awesome video, really interested in the comparison between Melee Jigglypuff, Brawl Jigglypuff and P+ Jigglypuff.. I dunno if she was buffed in P+ but she definitely isn't as strong as in Melee
The floor is a lot higher in P+ than other smash games. She is considered bottom tier, but that's more like lowish mid tier in melee, since Junebug was the best player for a year with Ganon, who's only one tier above Puff. Generally, people dont play her because she has basically no buffs (she has the aforementioned dacus and Rollout freefall buff from Brawl) and way more top tiers who can contest her, and especially because people who like the Puff playstyle can play Wario, who has very similar strengths, who's unique strengths and unique weaknesses fit P+'s meta and engine way better. She might be better than bottom tier, but its unlikely we'll ever see someone fully dedicated to her when Wario is in the game, which is a shame, because she definitely has some stuff, especially in doubles.
I mean Jigglypuff was almost cut from brawl. Along with Toon Link and Wolf being added last minute. Whom are both decently ranked. Which is why in subspace they don’t show up in the story and only appear after beating the game. Hell even sonic got in right before the final boss.
@@Surgemaster2012 The community says is a low-Mid tier, which btw is quite different to high mid tier. Is good but lacks the tools most characters have.
I remember one time my friend spent WEEKS training with marth to get a better and better score on mega bowser. I showed his friend jigglypuffs sleep move and when my friend went to the bathroom he fought megabowser and beat him mewtwo and ganon in such a low amount of time it was literally like a score he could never possibly beat. It was like 900x faster than his best score like under two minutes. HE WAS FURIOUS!
It's literally impossible to perform on TAS level or come even remotely close to it. Tier lists are based on real humans playing like real humans and the tier list is pretty accurate when you look at it that way, which is the reasonable one. Even if you were to have TAS players, the game would still remain horribly unbalanced with the same god and top tiers and the same garbage tiers. Being more skilled won't do anything about Ganondorf's garbage moveset or non-existent mobility and it won't magically give Ivysaur a recovery or a functional moveset.
Most people say P+ Jigglypuff is heavily outclassed by Wario. But still her recovery and edgeguarding ability are way better than his. I guess who TRULY outclasses her in P+ is Mewtwo. Thanks to his hover function, he literally has everything Jigglypuff has except Rest. And lack of that is anything but a problem because he has tons of ways to kill opponents.
I hate that Falcon is bad here I do think Samus shouldn’t be low tier. She has solid range and projectile game. M2K made a solid argument for her in his tier list. So I think mid tier. Somewhere above DK, Kirby, Sonic, etc. Also Ike… I wish I could explain here why I think he’s around B tier but that would be a whole paragraph.
Good vid. It does overuse weaselwords like "arguably," "one of the worst," etc. Not a huge problem most of the time, but saying rest is "one of her strongest moves" is a bit like saying Mount Rushmore is one of the most famous monuments in south dakota.
I don't think brawl Zelda is a worse character than melee Zelda, she's just in a more oppressive game. Sure she is still pretty bad, but at least she doesn't have literally only 3 decent moves.
Well it's basically the same nerfed thing from 64 Kirby to Melee Kirby. Only now Brawl Kirby is busy recovering his strength and surpassing Brawl Puff in major aspects (weight, and powerful movements). And for Jigglypuff now it's her turn to be on the ground lowering all her main advantages. (Air speed, Down-B aka Rest, B-air and many others...) Honestly, it was the same thing that happened with Kirby's career in Smash 64. Maybe Sakurai loves the pink balls (like me), but he won't hesitate to give reason to nerf them both (Kirby in Melee and Jigglypuff in Brawl) in future installments like this one. Because they both are the same. And I think that is a understood... me as a Kirby main..
To be fair, it's mostly because of oversights. Sakurai didn't forsee chaingrabs being a thing (for some odd reason despite their prevalence in melee) and lasers being land cancellable.
I actually think Ultimate Puff is pretty underrated and is probably mid tier. Not quite at that Melee level but still massively better than she was in Brawl.
jmook has proven that puff is not 4th best character in melee, nevermind the 3rd. Hbox thinks Yoshi is better than Puff too which might be shown to be true in time.
@@jesuspernia8031 it’s not just “a” community it’s basically the center of the competitive brawl community. Brawl still has a scene, it’s just pretty small, and people who are part of that scene (including the top 3 players in the world) submitted for this tier list
You'd quickly drop that idea because there's a very good reason nobody bothers. Brawl Falcon is genuinely horrible to play as (he's a combo character with high running speed in a game where you can barely combo and running gets you killed at random...also they made Knee of Justice not kill for whatever reason), many other low tiers are just as bad. That's on top of Brawl being a pretty bad game at its core.
@@bold3166 I'm not even talking about a tier list, I'm talking about the characters in a vacuum. Brawl's core gameplay is awful enough to render many characters genuinely unfun and then there are characters with dumb design or nerfs, like Pokemon Trainer's Stamina mechanic ruining whatever they could have, switching taking forever and Ivysaur being borderline unplayable with such gems as BAir that deals 3-5% with barely any knockback or good framedata, tether recovery in a game where they are garbage, no mobility and so on.
@@bold3166 on a somewhat related note, I suggest looking up Brawl+. It's one of the most prominent attempts at fixing Brawl without explicitly turning it into Melee like Project M. Kinda wish someone tried that kind of thing again, but PM is too popular at this point.
This is all false, melee puff actually hired a stunt double to take her place while she became mk instead of a wigglytuff via a secret branched evolution not to disimilar to how brawl pikachu is actually melee pichu. Source: sakurai is my mom and I am NOT lying, stop saying that I am lying, I am telling the truth, trust me I have insider information and as proof I can confirm mario will be in the next smash bros game as a playable character so shut up haters who keep telling me I am an unreliable source of info, we will see who is laughing when mario is playable in the next smash game and it won't be me because I will crying because it's very sad they keep making mario fight his brother in the games and really makes me upset thinking about if they are friends when they are so willing to fight, I really hope something didn't happen inbetween them that made them upset with one another.
lmafo she is definitly not better than melee puff in Ultimate. you clearly don't know what your talking about either. she is definitly worse than the melee version in ultimate. many people would aruge she is mid tier in ultimate at best. hbox has to switch to steve in matchups, definitly is not something you would do with jigglypuff in melee.
She's not high tier but she's not low either. She has wayyyy too many bad matchups to be high tier, but she's also decent in a lot of matchups (compared to Smash 4 where she had one of the worst matchup spreads in the game)
@@Tokomiii Melee Ganon, while not garbage, was still not very good. Going from subpar to garbage isn't as bad as going from one of the best to garbage.
Ultimate Puff is definitely not a bad character anymore. Especially when players like Bassmage and somehow Hbox can take games and sets off Top players. That’s something Smash 4 or Brawl Puff dream they could actually do
The way I like to phrase it is that Ultimate Jigglypuff is *relatively* bad, in comparison to the rest of the cast, while Brawl puff and Sm4sh puff are *genuinely* bad
@@ShibuNub3305 melee puff was a top tier character along with spacies, marth, and sheik. but now, in ultimate she is still better than ssb4, but positioning in mid-high tier, which is still worse than her peak melee performance.
still, but its viable, like melee's yoshi/pika/samus tier
also, some nerfs in brawl still lingers in ultimate. for example, melee rest has the insane kill power which can even kill fox/falco with grab combo rest from 0%, making puff into glass cannon shooting nukes.
but in ultimate, rest kills usually on 60~70%, making the rest even more risky and puff not being able to do a insane early kill combos. and this also even made stock trades even more frequent than melee.
yeah ultimate puff is easily mid tier (and easily beats min min too lol)
@@electrode8239 Uair -> rest at 30-50% (higher percents for heavy weights) exists
5:04 The Miis aren't actually under Jigglypuff, they are unranked because they were so rare in the meta the panelists couldn't rank them. The Miis were pretty bad in Smash 4 but the only one that's a contender for the worst in the game is Mii Swordfighter when restricted to 1111 moveset. (Smash 4 tournament unfortunately restricted Miis to 1111 moveset for years, but not after Ultimate they are not)
Lots of people say Jigglypuff is a mid tier in Ultimate. There's even a Jigglypuff main who made Top 25 in NA.
But ultimately has roughly the same representation as Little Mac. Sadly Puff looks like is still a low tier due to lacking tools to compensafe for the lack of ground and vertical movility, range and weight. What I think Puff needs is better frame data on some, because it's very sluggish for what they do. A frame 4 N-air would do wonders for instance to have a reliable out of shield.
@@N12015i wouldnt call 59th low tier, i’d say moreso lower mid tier
I appreciate the mention of the modern tier list at the end (as the one who organized and compiled the tier list). It’s nice you’re making brawl content recently
Poor Jigglypuff that rest move is definielty one of the most nerfed moves ever in smash.
I remember playing randoms vs friends all the time in brawl and the shittiest characters to get was Ganon, CF, Jigglypuff, and Bowser. I don't remember feeling Mario or Link was that bad to play as though.
Even casually Mario felt underwhelming to me. He was like an inferior Luigi with worse recovery and less knockback.
babe wake up,, honest content just posted
WAKE HER UP!!!!
jk
completely outclassed by Wario in P+
Wario is disgusting so no
So basically... A Brawl version of AsumSaus
Asumsaus is on his own level. He the 🐐
It's not right to say Falco wasn't touched with nerfs when Brawl Falco feels like a completely different character with all of his changes (combined with global changes from Brawl). Its difficult to even compare the two. The shine and dair changes were undoubtedly big nerfs though. With his new chaingrab and laser camping, he didn't turn out bad in Brawl, but I really do think it's just a coincidence that he ended up high on the tier list of both games.
Yeah those it was less nerds and more total reworks so technically it’s correct even if highly misleading
Awesome video, really interested in the comparison between Melee Jigglypuff, Brawl Jigglypuff and P+ Jigglypuff.. I dunno if she was buffed in P+ but she definitely isn't as strong as in Melee
Thing is everyone hates it when this character is broken, she's in a good place in ultimate
Rip to all my Jigglypuff homies. All 12 of them 💀. How well does Jiggly do in P+?
The floor is a lot higher in P+ than other smash games. She is considered bottom tier, but that's more like lowish mid tier in melee, since Junebug was the best player for a year with Ganon, who's only one tier above Puff. Generally, people dont play her because she has basically no buffs (she has the aforementioned dacus and Rollout freefall buff from Brawl) and way more top tiers who can contest her, and especially because people who like the Puff playstyle can play Wario, who has very similar strengths, who's unique strengths and unique weaknesses fit P+'s meta and engine way better.
She might be better than bottom tier, but its unlikely we'll ever see someone fully dedicated to her when Wario is in the game, which is a shame, because she definitely has some stuff, especially in doubles.
She's dead last lmao
Even worse
Wario is Jigglypuff 2.
Jigglypuff doesn't exist in Brawl but got split up into two good characters: Wario and Dedede.
@@FabsterCola Wario is one of my favorites
I mean Jigglypuff was almost cut from brawl. Along with Toon Link and Wolf being added last minute. Whom are both decently ranked. Which is why in subspace they don’t show up in the story and only appear after beating the game. Hell even sonic got in right before the final boss.
Weird how you say Zelda isn't Low tier in Ultimate, but she still is considered that.
She is definitly more viable than Brawl or Melee Zelda.
@@sbsb7352 Also Smash 4 as well.
He also said puff is still bad in ultimate, I don't think he knows much abt ultimates meta
@@omegalilbchass8270 Well Mid tier is considered bad in Ult and Puff is a Mid tier.
@@Surgemaster2012 The community says is a low-Mid tier, which btw is quite different to high mid tier. Is good but lacks the tools most characters have.
I remember one time my friend spent WEEKS training with marth to get a better and better score on mega bowser. I showed his friend jigglypuffs sleep move and when my friend went to the bathroom he fought megabowser and beat him mewtwo and ganon in such a low amount of time it was literally like a score he could never possibly beat. It was like 900x faster than his best score like under two minutes. HE WAS FURIOUS!
Nice video man can you do other brawl low tier like Mario and Falcon next
Yea actually a video on Mario is coming
@@ZachHonest nice, i could of asked for a video like that too
@@ZachHonest nice can’t wait
Brawl's tier list is absolute mess.
Watching TAS videos about them make them prove the tier list wrong at some points.
It's literally impossible to perform on TAS level or come even remotely close to it. Tier lists are based on real humans playing like real humans and the tier list is pretty accurate when you look at it that way, which is the reasonable one.
Even if you were to have TAS players, the game would still remain horribly unbalanced with the same god and top tiers and the same garbage tiers. Being more skilled won't do anything about Ganondorf's garbage moveset or non-existent mobility and it won't magically give Ivysaur a recovery or a functional moveset.
Most people say P+ Jigglypuff is heavily outclassed by Wario. But still her recovery and edgeguarding ability are way better than his.
I guess who TRULY outclasses her in P+ is Mewtwo. Thanks to his hover function, he literally has everything Jigglypuff has except Rest. And lack of that is anything but a problem because he has tons of ways to kill opponents.
New video! Love the content as always!
Appreciate it!
I hate that Falcon is bad here
I do think Samus shouldn’t be low tier. She has solid range and projectile game. M2K made a solid argument for her in his tier list. So I think mid tier. Somewhere above DK, Kirby, Sonic, etc. Also Ike… I wish I could explain here why I think he’s around B tier but that would be a whole paragraph.
Puff S Tier in Ultimate 🥶🥶🥶🥶
True
*has 67 losing matchups*
@@dhans9662no she has 25 losing matchups
I have no reason to be excited for a new vid on games i havent touched in ages but I am.
Good vid. It does overuse weaselwords like "arguably," "one of the worst," etc. Not a huge problem most of the time, but saying rest is "one of her strongest moves" is a bit like saying Mount Rushmore is one of the most famous monuments in south dakota.
I don't think brawl Zelda is a worse character than melee Zelda, she's just in a more oppressive game. Sure she is still pretty bad, but at least she doesn't have literally only 3 decent moves.
The contents so honest👌
Cool video but it also would have been fun to compare her to 64 Puff haha
Well it's basically the same nerfed thing from 64 Kirby to Melee Kirby.
Only now Brawl Kirby is busy recovering his strength and surpassing Brawl Puff in major aspects (weight, and powerful movements).
And for Jigglypuff now it's her turn to be on the ground lowering all her main advantages. (Air speed, Down-B aka Rest, B-air and many others...)
Honestly, it was the same thing that happened with Kirby's career in Smash 64.
Maybe Sakurai loves the pink balls (like me), but he won't hesitate to give reason to nerf them both (Kirby in Melee and Jigglypuff in Brawl) in future installments like this one. Because they both are the same. And I think that is a understood... me as a Kirby main..
Fun fact: i actually watched this video this morning (central europe time zone) and while watching, around 4:05, the video was gone
lol i uploaded it at the wrong time, so I put it up later
great video idea
R.I.P. Rachel Lillis
Falco gets revamped in brawl, and is still high tier in brawl is somewhat strange to me...
To be fair, it's mostly because of oversights. Sakurai didn't forsee chaingrabs being a thing (for some odd reason despite their prevalence in melee) and lasers being land cancellable.
Spongebob sweep
RIP Rachael Lillis 1978-2024
She will be missed.
I actually think Ultimate Puff is pretty underrated and is probably mid tier. Not quite at that Melee level but still massively better than she was in Brawl.
song at 1:16?
Yoshi’s Tropical Island (Mario Party)
jmook has proven that puff is not 4th best character in melee, nevermind the 3rd. Hbox thinks Yoshi is better than Puff too which might be shown to be true in time.
Considering that AmSa can time out jigglypuff, hbox may be on to something
Wth yall yapping about omg
@@Mike-di3mo puff not being top 5 LOL
@@Masaru_kun sadly puff is cope all you want
@@Mike-di3mo im not coping mang im just looking at results, amsa is putting up better results than Hbox nowadays, Wizzy is arguably too
Jigglypuff Is harder in Brawl than in melee
New brawl tier list wtf? Why
its a community tier list
It’s not official because there’s been no competitive scene for Brawl in years. It’s just a community made one.
@@jesuspernia8031 it’s not just “a” community it’s basically the center of the competitive brawl community. Brawl still has a scene, it’s just pretty small, and people who are part of that scene (including the top 3 players in the world) submitted for this tier list
numbers!!
If I played Brawl, I would probably main some of the low tier just cus, they are underused and, I can barely find anyone play these characters
You'd quickly drop that idea because there's a very good reason nobody bothers. Brawl Falcon is genuinely horrible to play as (he's a combo character with high running speed in a game where you can barely combo and running gets you killed at random...also they made Knee of Justice not kill for whatever reason), many other low tiers are just as bad.
That's on top of Brawl being a pretty bad game at its core.
@@anothenblue2630 not gonna lie, I honestly don't rlly care about tier list I'm just here for curiosity and fun
@@bold3166 I'm not even talking about a tier list, I'm talking about the characters in a vacuum. Brawl's core gameplay is awful enough to render many characters genuinely unfun and then there are characters with dumb design or nerfs, like Pokemon Trainer's Stamina mechanic ruining whatever they could have, switching taking forever and Ivysaur being borderline unplayable with such gems as BAir that deals 3-5% with barely any knockback or good framedata, tether recovery in a game where they are garbage, no mobility and so on.
@@anothenblue2630 true, i guess you do have a fair point
@@bold3166 on a somewhat related note, I suggest looking up Brawl+. It's one of the most prominent attempts at fixing Brawl without explicitly turning it into Melee like Project M. Kinda wish someone tried that kind of thing again, but PM is too popular at this point.
This is all false, melee puff actually hired a stunt double to take her place while she became mk instead of a wigglytuff via a secret branched evolution not to disimilar to how brawl pikachu is actually melee pichu.
Source: sakurai is my mom and I am NOT lying, stop saying that I am lying, I am telling the truth, trust me I have insider information and as proof I can confirm mario will be in the next smash bros game as a playable character so shut up haters who keep telling me I am an unreliable source of info, we will see who is laughing when mario is playable in the next smash game and it won't be me because I will crying because it's very sad they keep making mario fight his brother in the games and really makes me upset thinking about if they are friends when they are so willing to fight, I really hope something didn't happen inbetween them that made them upset with one another.
Can u react to evo 2019 melee intro
F 4 Falcon
Sub space was the only good thing about brawl I swear.
I saw what you deleted
6.66K subs
29.4K subscribers now. I can see where this world is heading towards the upcoming 7 year tribulation.
Hate to see it
same here, tho in Ultimate i can't be that bad
not the greastest, more mid than anything (at best) but still
"Low tier in ultimate"
....No? She's arguably high tier lmfao. You clearly don't know much abt ultimate
lmafo she is definitly not better than melee puff in Ultimate. you clearly don't know what your talking about either. she is definitly worse than the melee version in ultimate. many people would aruge she is mid tier in ultimate at best. hbox has to switch to steve in matchups, definitly is not something you would do with jigglypuff in melee.
She's not high tier but she's not low either. She has wayyyy too many bad matchups to be high tier, but she's also decent in a lot of matchups (compared to Smash 4 where she had one of the worst matchup spreads in the game)
@@Adam_U im pretty sure both hbox and bassmage think puff has more losing matchups then winning matchups
She has SIXTY SEVEN LOSING MATCHUPS
@@dhans9662where did you find that dumbass?
F
Woah, brawl sucks.
What ab Ganon?
Puff was nerfed more considering she was 3rd best in Melee
@@sbsb7352 yeah but you can’t even play ganon in brawl
@@Tokomiii Melee Ganon, while not garbage, was still not very good. Going from subpar to garbage isn't as bad as going from one of the best to garbage.
F