Subscribed! great video! With so many people always thinking sloops are easier and that ketches are old and outdated with no practical purpose I think the modern youtube zietgist has everyone hoodwinked. This sail plan makes a lot of sense in that you have smaller sails to work with. I DO think that this means the boat suffers in lighter winds, but frankly as a liveaboard I am more concerned about safety in heavy winds, especially as this means in weather that others may not be able to sail in, I CAN, and with the frequency of more and more storms as the earth warms I think the wisdom of a heavier boat with more options in how you hoist the sails really does make sense!
I own a 43' catamaran, and it's GREAT for living on. And I know that people cross oceans in them. But I think a cutter ketch is absolutely the right rig for long passages. And they're SO BEAUTIFUL.
We sailed our Amel Mango for 10 years. We rerigged her as a Cutter-Ketch after 5 years, before our Pacific crossing by adding a meter long bowsprit. What an ideal improvement. We crossed wing and wing at 8 knots. We sold Tempest in Australia, but after a year we bought an experienced Privilege 42. Between the two, the Amel is suited for heavy weather, the Cat, not. Our current program includes rotating our grandkids on board. Better for the kids. After so many years of just the two, it is a gift to share with the next generation. Our ketch in her past made 4 Atlantic crossings, Sailed North to Spitsbergen, as Far East as Croatia, and West to Perth via the south shore. We miss her greatly. Her last suit of sails was a pure pleasure, with a lighter weight 130 Genoa and heavier working jib she kept us safe. I hope her new owner has half the adventures we had.
Gratitude to yss for this excellent presentation. I am about to begin sailing. I bought a Bruce Roberts Offshore 44 ketch quite randomly because of a low price for it's majestic size inside and it's beauty. So wow, I'm stoked even more now!
Blessings to you both!!! My husband and I (58 and 59) are shopping for our live aboard. Without knowing why, I said, "I don't believe we should get a ketch because I am already a bit overwhelmed by all the things that need maintenance, repairing, then replacing." THANK YOU for this!!! We have been researching and researching... exhausting really, but a lot of FUN! Now you've helped us because my husband wants a ketch but will never force anything on me (I'm quite the lucky girl! 🤭). He knows quite a bit and your video drove it home for me! We're truly grateful and hope to meet you "some day" on a passage! I'll be the nut selling freshly baked organic breads and crackers!!! You will get some free! 🤭🤣😂🙏❤️ Stay safe!
I have been sailing my Allied Princess 36 ketch for 25 years and agree with much of what you said. There are a few things that I differ on though. First, my Allied was available as either a ketch or a sloop. The masts are deck stepped and the boat was built with two positions for the main mast. The ketch has the main farther forward than the sloop. That combined with the shorter main mast on a ketch means that the fore sail is considerably smaller than on a sloop for the same % of overlap. Because of the mizzen mast, even with the main farther forward the main boom is shorter than on a sloop which also further decreases the size of the main sail. An additional advantage of the shorter masts on a ketch is that the center of effort of the sails is lower than on a sloop which allows you to carry more sail in stronger winds for the same amount of heel (all other things being equal). Although pointing ability is much more a factor of the combination of underbody and sail plan design. If you want a boat to point high, then you want a tall high aspect rig AND a deep high aspect fin keel to provide plenty of lift. The difference in pointing ability of a full keel ketch like mine and a fin keel sloop can be significant (10+ degrees). However the ability to point high also generally comes with a much less comfortable ride since the sloop that points high will generally have a very shallow canoe body and correspondingly smaller displacement for the same boat length. Most larger ketches are center cockpit designs. However smaller ketches (say under 38'-40') are generally aft cockpit designs with the mizzen in the cockpit. Having the mizzen in the cockpit clutters up the cockpit rather a lot, but it also provides something to hang onto. You do have to look around the mizzen when steering though. The mizzen masts on ketches often have poor forward staying which makes the mast rather springy. This is particularly true on smaller boats with deck stepped masts. However if you have a triatic that issue goes away. As a seasonal sailor whose boat is hauled out annually for the winter I had to rig my triatic so that it can be removed without going up the mast. That way of rigging the triatic would allow me to cast the triatic off in the event of losing the main, perhaps keeping the mizzen standing (if I was fast enough). As an older sailor (70+) whose crew is primarily a passenger due to age based limitations, I have been sailing my ketch without the main for the last few years. For the last two years I haven't even put the main boom on. In anything over 15 knots I can make hull speed without the main. As a rule, ketches because of the more forward center of effort of the sail plan and shorter sail plan do not point as high as sloops. That is accentuated for older full keel designs like my Allied. While that isn't a huge problem for offshore sailors, the lack of pointing ability can mean an extra tack or two when sailing inshore and trying to clear a headland. Overall, I too prefer the ketch. I very much like being able to sail my boat jib and jigger without leaving the cockpit.
I had a 76' cutter Yawl and sailed extensively in both the Pacific and Atlantic. I found that I had the performance of a Sloop but the small mizzen balanced the boat and became the wind vane.
I recently completed a 10 year circumnavigation. Cherubini 44. Inspired by the most winning yacht in ocean racing history-Ticonderoga. Double headed ketch with roller 120 jib, club footed reefing staysail. Roller furling main on a Goetz Marine custom carbon fiber main, (previous owner was very good to this boat),large reefing mizzen. Well canvassed with S/A 19.3. Best motion comfort index of 50 other yachts that I compared her to. Faster than a 56 foot VandeStad design across the Indian Ocean in both light winds and in brisk conditions with the usual 3- 4 meter seas. I have hove to in 60 knots with the heavily reefed main alone. No mizzen or jib necessary ( I have experimented with all the possible sail combinations and found the main alone to be best on Wavelength. Mizzen staysail is the secret weapon in that I feel comfortable leaving this sail up at night as it is of modest size and I can douse in it’s sock from just a step forward of the cockpit. Only in extremely settled conditions would I fly the drifter at night. Just too many night time squalls. This boat does not have the McMansion space down below of “modern designs”, but it has great storage . Did back to back solo 210 and 200 NM days on Brasil to Caribbean passage this year. Secret tip- build a small boom gallows for the club footed jib out of 1 inch stainless. When dousing, first secure staysail boom , then flake sail. That way the boom provides a secure hand hold on the deck that does not swing side to side.
Hi - how do you hove-to with just one sail?! I thought the idea of hoving to was the opposite forces of the main and jib (I sail a tri.). Surely, w just one sail, you've tacked?
@@marksten620 Mark, I have tried backwinded jib and heavily reefed main(5 five foot of roller furler main) and was blown 38 miles downwind in a 45 knot gale. With just 5 feet of main in 60 knot gail, Wavelength hove to well to my amazement. Note that she is full keel with cut away forefoot. I have also tried including the mizzen. My go to remains the main only with preventer/ down haul to toe rail.
@@followtheboat Liz, I learned the hard way to sail the boat as the previous owner was not able to inform me Wavelength’s characteristics . Must say I have enjoyed the rig for offshore work immensely. I also have extensive experience on a Swan 43, sloop. Hands down the ketch with full keel is much more seaworthly, faster , seakindly motion and gives confidence that more reefs can be taken as the wind increases. Happy sailing!!!
@@markbigalke4669 Thanks for your reply, Mark. My experience of backward drift when hove to was also a lot faster than the books suggest -- about 3kts in 45kts of wind. I look forward to learning more about my Gin Fizz ketch.
Man, I could write an entire book on this answer. I think what you really meant was "What is the best sailboat TYPE to CRUISE around the world"... as I don't think you mean any of those offshore racing machines with 20 crew... I am a Bluewater KETCH sailor and have about 8000 miles on the open ocean in some very challenging conditions (Amel Super Maramu). It drives me crazy to hear (usually video-sailors or charter boat skippers) talk about Catamarans for speed... but for anything much more than an overnight passage that's just not reality. Because of their speed, Catamarans can "make their own wind" and unfortunately as things get a bit rougher, the apparent wind moves forward and increases which makes dumping sail even tougher and it's very easy to get into a situation where the sails are driving the boat far too hard and you can capsize the boat or lose the rig. As a result most Catamarans ACTUALLY cruise with far less than optimal sail out - especially after dark and so they don't rack up anything like their potential daily mile total and if you look at the ARC or Pacific Puddle Jump results, you will find that many Sloops and Ketches easily match or beat the times of even the fastest Cataramans. For example, in the 2019 ARC (Atlantic Rally for Cruisers), while admittedly, the fastest time was set by a couple of very fast Marsaudan cats at 14D:15H and 16D:3H respectively, if you take those two boats away, there were 26 monohulls including everything from stock standard Beneteaus, Hanses and Jeanneaus beating EVERY OTHER CATAMARAN out there. The third fastest monohull (5th overall) was a Beneteau 40 at 17D:10H. The slowest passage time was a Catamaran and 28/40 of the Catamarans did it under 23D... while 90/120 of the monohulls beat 23D. The median time for a catamaran to make the crossing was 21D:03H with an Outremar 51 (a very fast cat) while the median time for a monohull was 20D:20H in a Bavaria Cruiser 40 - not exactly a screamer. So, you don't buy a cruising catamaran for speed no matter how fast they go. If you want a house on floats, fine... but don't justify it based on speed. So... Sloop or Ketch (assuming Cutter for both). For me, Ketch... for all of the reasons you put forward. Just so much more flexibility and ease of sail handling for a couple (which really means single handing it - as you don't want to have to wake your partner ever time you need to make a sail change). That mizzen is brilliant in changing conditions and when you are flying the Mizzen Ballooner/staysail along with the cutters up front, they are so pretty they make your eyes bleed. One other advantage, the mast height is lower so you can get under more bridges... the US Intercoastal has a limit of 65'.. many ketches can slide under those but their sloop brothers would leave the top quarter of the mast on the bridge if they tried it. That said, these days, because of the power of the electric winches and significant extra cost of twin masts/booms/rigs and more sails, new sailboats have moved away from Ketches. The last Amel Ketches were a LOT more money than their current sloops and people weren't buying them as a result so the market moved to sloops. At the end of it, it really comes down to what do you want to do with the boat... Then you have to figure out where you are going... if you are doing the trade wind/puddle jump route and probably won't go across the Indian Ocean past Thailand or around Cape of Good Hope, then that's one thing... if you are going into areas where you could see some REAL blue water conditions... then that's a totally different thing. With a really good reason, I could probably be convinced to take a Beneteau or Jeanneau or even a Catamaran across the typical Canary Islands to Caribbean or even to the Marquessas from Panama but I wouldn't ever want to take one down the east coast of America or Africa through the Gulf Stream or Agulas Current respectively, from the Society Islands up or down to NZ or Sydney to Hobart and there is no way in hell you could ever talk me into taking one around Cape Horn although some have done so. Some people jump out of perfectly good aeroplanes too... but that's not for me. Some people want a house on floats... like the big patio doors at the back but having seen 20-30' waves chasing (and overtaking as they move much faster than even catamarans can go), I just couldn't put myself in that situation if I'm really sailing around the world but if I was going to charter a boat in the Caribbean or Greek Islands, and take along my family, then I'd take a Cat.
I think you neatly put everything in perspective with that comment, Steve thank you. And yes, the thumbnail and title are often a little different from the thrust of the content just because of youtube algorithms, but you get where we're coming from. Thanks for your thoughts on the subject. Peace and fair winds to you ✌⛵
@@mosca3289 No catamaran other than the Mausardon's were faster than December 11th uncorrected. Most were somewhere around December 13th... Same for most mono's... net is Cat's in cruising configurations aren't necessarily faster than mono's... which was my point.
Steve Burton I’m looking at the official World Cruising Club website and I see Outremer 5X arrived 8 Dec, Swiss Cat 55 and Grainger 60 arrived 10 December, a handful of family sailed Lagoon 52’s arrived 11 December. Your “aren’t necessarily faster” gives you plenty of wriggle room but actually you’ve got the basic facts wrong. www.worldcruising.com/content/S637121288219394921/ARC2019_MultihullDivision_OverallResults.pdf
We are shabby coastal cruisers and rarely get more than 5-10 miles from the shore.on our 35' sloop, even though our center-cockpit Hallberg-Rassy is a bluewater boat which has plied the Atlantic a number of times before we were the owners -but we aren't quite there yet in our cruising career. There was a ketch-rigged version of this boat but sadly ours is not one of those. They did move the mast step forward a bit less than a meter for this hull on the ketch, as well as shorter. And that brings us to one thing that you didn't touch on as an advantage of the ketch rig. They generally have lower mast heights, and that means in coastal areas where there are a lot of bridges and power cables the air draft is much less likely to be an issue or obstacle to navigation. On the US East Coast there is the ICW -or Intra-Coastal Waterway, with many bridges along the 2000+ mile route. While they are all supposed to be at least 65' tall, in reality with seasonal flooding and very high tides at times plus wind-driven tides many cruisers have issues getting under many of these bridges. Some bridges were built a bit lower than planned and some predate the standard such as one near Miami called the Julia Tuttle Causeway Bridge which requires boats higher than 56' to take the outside route through that area. With a ketch, that is usually not a problem on boats even up to 50' in length. Our mast height is a shade under 50' so we can get under many bridges that typical larger cruising boats with 60+ foot masts simply cannot. The ICW is an extremely popular protected migratory route for thousands of cruisers in the US. It does not take much research online in online cruising communities to see a lot of kvetching about bridge heights every season as many cruisers deal with it. Having a ketch-rigged sailboat means you probably don't need to worry about that.
Yes, we're a couple of foot shorter than most sloops the same size. More i importantly, James, you raise a valid point about the mast position. Somewhere I have the blueprints for the Oyster 435 and I'm not sure if that too shows the ketch version with the mast further forward, which coincides with some people saying that a true cutter has a main mast further forward. I need to dig it out. I will confirm this in the next video if I am wrong of course!
Our boat is deck-stepped. They left a large thickened part of the deck between the two bulkheads that form the head down the center of the ship. Raised about 30mm off the surrounding deck to either side to keep water off like a platform On the sloop the mast is stepped just forward of the aft bulkhead with a square wood compression post laminated right onto it and under the mast. I've never been in the ketch version but I imagine that the compression post is mounted on the forward bulkhead in the head instead with the mast step right above that as well. That moves it probably about 80-90cm further forward. Clever design to accommodate either rigging. I'm not sure exactly how they moved all the chainplates forward too. I suppose they leapfrogged them all forward the same amount which was different structures (hips?) inside the hull to mount them too, but at least the mold for the deck fiberglass was the same for either configuration.
Thank you for this video. As a couch sailor, a ketch seemed like a very complicated setup. Thank you for explaining the advantages, its changed my mind about what makes as easy to sail boat.
Not a dry topic at all Liz! Love hearing your views on this. SY Miss Foxy is a cutter-rigged sloop (Jeanneau 53) and the only drawback after doing around 10,000nm on her since buying her in Tahiti in Oct/2017 was that the massive mainsail is a mitt-full to manage shorthanded but wow she lifts her skirts with slightly cracked sheets. Very exhilarating! And coming into cruising after racing a dozen yachts over the past 30 years, performance (speed) was a priority for us.
@@followtheboat Ha ha! All yours to use! Every yacht has a sweet point of sail and ours "lifts her skirts" when close-reaching. Those aerial shots of Esper look like she lifts her skirts with wind just forward of her beam. Lovely shots!
Personally I think a cutter rigged ketch under full sail looks absolutely beautiful. I fell in love with Laura Dekker's Guppy, a Jeanneau Gin Fizz ketch, and was hooked on your channel when I realised Esper was the same rig. Stay safe.
Ted Irwin was the designer at Morgan before he started Irwin Yachts. I understand he made deals to use their hull molds on several Irwin models, including My 45' Ketch.
I have never owned a ketch. I have sailed on a few. For me I would say general rule of thumb is less than 45' all inboard cutter rig, over 45' cutter rigged ketch. The first f/g sailboat to circumnavigate was a Tom Gillmer designed Allied Seawind ketch. But that was long ago before the advent of readily available windvane self steering and the plethora of electronic autopilots. The additional cost and complexity of the ketch in smaller boats must be balanced against the "drive" that the split rig delivers. I converted my previous(Cape Dory 28) and current(S2 11c) boat to a cutter. I find that both sail well off the wind with just the s'sail. I even sailed many miles under reefed s'sail on the CD 28 after rounding Good Hope in 35+ knot winds and 4~5 meter seas. I built and sailed a 30' junk rigged sloop for a number of years. While not as weatherly as a sloop or cutter it was far easier to handle, especially for me, a solo sailor. Bill King aboard Galway Blazer II, a schooner rigged junk would have handily won the first nonstop solo circumnavigation had his unstayed foremast not broken while crossing the Atlantic on the final leg of the trip.
My father owned an 80's 44 or 46ft Spirit yacht sailboat, the hulls on those are epoxy laminated wood. It was a ketch rig sailboat. He would never use the smaller mast in the rear. He always said, that only if the main mast breaks, or is inoperable. He was a structural engineer. I remember when we dry docked it, he attached these wing looking stabilizers to the vertical keel, & at the bottom it has a winged shaped bulb that was full of led. He also attached chine runners on both sides of the back of the hull, about 2 ft below the water line. After he did all this the boat heeled a lot less, & seem to porpose less, but rode lower in the water, but much more stabile. He told me, in the summer of 90 that SWATH boats would be the hulls of the future because the hulls rode beneath the surface of the water, & if they are made rhe right shape say with vertical stabilizers on them they could be very stabile in rough water with very little movement, I still don't understand why there isn't any SWATH HULL SAILBOATS.
I’ve had numerous sailing craft, but absolutely luved my Cheoy Lee offshore 31 ketch! Very stable & not at all slow! Was the perfect rig 4 Puget Sound, especially if there was a bit of a blow & heavier seas! Our C&C 33 may b bigger , lighter & faster, but not nearly as easy 2 handle as the little ketch! Kind of a racing boat! 2 many strings 2 pull! The Cheoy Lee just holds her course without anyone at the helm & no autopilot! Sweet little boat! And the wooden spars were beautiful in the setting sunlight! Fair winds & thanx 4 the video!
I have a question. Cheoy Lee boats have a lot of wood on their deck and most of their boats have a wooden rigging. How hard is it to maintain it? Is it expensive? Because I'm thinking of buying one someday and I'm concerned if I could manage all this wood. I wouldn't want to put myself into all this just to see my boat rotting, you know. I don't have any experience with teak decks too, so please answer if you'd be so kind.
We have a 41 Morgan sloop and love the way it sails. However I also sail for charter 41 Morgan ketch and at first didn’t know much about using the mizzen. It changed my mind and it true the versatility was amazing. Also when you balance the sails it’s been one of the best sailing experiences I’ve had. She pointed and it was as if she was on rails. 3 hours and never touched the helm. I have sailed all kinds and I have to agree there are some great advantages of a ketch.
We sail a cutter rigged ketch, and have been cruising the Pacific for ten years. I like the variety of the sail plan. We joke that we will never win a race, but checking the log I was surprised to find that we averaged 132 nautical miles (per 24 hr.) on our trip from San Diego to Victoria B. C. (via Hawaii).
I confess I used to be a ketch lover, grew up sailing on my fathers ketch which was a sister ship to Joshua, Bernard Moitissers boat. Sailed great could always balance her well lots to play with, heaven! However I have now seen the light! If we are talking about boats over 40 foot (for smaller boats a sloop of some sort is fine) then a cutter makes much more sense. Here's why... On a true cutter the mast is set slightly father back than a sloop so smaller more manageable main (yes I know a ketch has two of them so they're smaller too, but who wants two mainsails? mainsails are a pain to reef) Instead a cutter has two foresails that are easy to reef. Sailing a cutter with a high cut yankee and a staysail means there is no big 120+% genoa to grind in, things are much more manageable shorthanded. Going to windward flying both foresails you have as much drive as the big gennys, but the real magic happens when you have to reef. Instead of winding in some Genoa on a sloop or faffing around with mains on a ketch you roll away your yankee. Then instead of a flappy partially rolled Genoa (low cut sails dont roll well) you have a fully out perfectly trimmed staysail, and the centre of effort is where it should be low and inboard. Loosen the sheets as you come off the wind and your yankee is the perfect reacher, the clew doesn't rise as you bear away and you dont have to adjust the car forward at just the time you need it back to stop the leach flapping. So now the wind really gets up and you want to hove to. Well in a cutter that can be done instantly. Roll up the yankee, back the staysail & with main and staysail reefed to suit conditions your done & you have the centre of effort of both sails close to the centre of balance of the boat which makes trim much more forgiving. I could go on but this is sounding like the rant of a madman now so I'm not even going to mention all that extra weight aloft and complexity of more standing and running rigging with a ketch! I think there's a good half dozen reasons a cutter wins over a ketch there Jamie, so here's the challenge... if you can come up with 6 reasons a ketch wins over a cutter you might win me back to my miss-led youth! I'll start you off, ketches have an inbuilt riding sail, that's all I can think of ;)
P.S. we've just learned we will be allowed into port tomorrow for the first time in over two months, so I might even be able to get some Wifi to watch the video... I'll be counting the plus points!
We purchased a 1973 Allied Princess 36 ketch with an aft cockpit. As she is an older boat we’ve spent a lot on refit but we like the way she sails and felt that as an older couple (we are in our early 60s) it’s rig held lots of advantages for us. We will be sailing the east coast of the US with outside hops, the Great Lakes, Bahamas and Gulf of Mexico. Your Esper is such a lovely boat!
I once had a 30’ Seawind ketch. One thing I liked was the ability to stand up holding the rigging in the cockpit under sail. You can’t do this on a sloop.
I own a motor boat but have always loved sailing, that feeling of shutting off the engine and just going under sail is amazing. I'm currently in a quarantine in the BVI and have spent many hours today watching Laura Dekker's experience going around the world solo at age 15, I was wondering why she preferred a Jeanneau 38 ketch for this awesome trip and now you have answered my question, thank you for this informative video.
Explorer 45 staysail ketch with cut away full keel. We quite often are running jib and jigger which is extremely comfortable. Throwing the main up also great. Unfortunately the inner foresail was missing when we bought and we have not got around to getting a new one yet. We keep watching you 2 for the interesting ketch info. Great stuff. Currently getting the boat into a state to head off long term. Teak deck removal anyone?. Getting there.
Sir Francis Chicchicester sailed around the world single handedly in a 40ft ketch called.Gpysi Moth 1967, i was ten.then, i never forgotten his achievement.
Just bought a Morgan Out Island 41 Ketch last spring with the intent of blue water cruising. I did a lot of research before deciding what kind of rig and hull I wanted and the Ketch rig really stood out as the best.
I found this to be very informative and answered many of my questions. I have sailed on ketches, not in rough weather, but the advantages you mentioned are worthy of a blue water sailor. Any sailboat is comfortable in good weather but few are in bad weather. The ketch, therefore would be my choice.
The first big sailboat boat (over 30 feet ) was a gulf star 50 ketch rigged. I discovered that when the jib and mizzen are balance that gulf star sailed very nice.
they are scoundrels. by every stretch of the imagination. little if anything out of their mouths is truth, fake tears, whole 9 years. it's all about playing peoples emotions for free money with them. they knew about the simple fix required on their bulkhead they day they first inspected their old boat. they negotiated all the problems with the new boat into the deal, there was no surprises. there's way more to their soundrelous behavior too.
Hey André. I actually say that in the original version but I edited that bit out for brevity! In the end it was fine and not sticking those in means I can get access to the bolts. 👍
Very informative. Difficult to get consensus when most responding have little to nil exp with various configurations. Personally, I like the shorter sticks, & all the benefits for solo.
A head sail has two main jobs to do, powering the boat and creating lift for the bow. Does the typically smaller head sails on ketch's stop some of the lift and does using the stay sail compensate. In some of the footage you show in this video Esper seems heavy in the bow with it digging in often.
Esper has a pretty low profile anyway but some of that drag probably comes from too much gear on board! But yes, high cut yankee won't provide a much lift.
Preaching to the converted here. I bought a Dickerson 36 ketch a year and a half ago and have no regrets. My criteria in my search were (0) Fiberglass hull, (1) Center cockpit, (2) Protected rudder (skeg or full keel), (3) ketch rig, (4) hard dodger, and (5) two heads. Unlike what you say in your video, many of the smaller ketches (at least those available in the US) are aft cockpit. While I was searching, I saw lots of listings for nice small ketches that met most of my criteria in Europe, but few in the US. The two that I found examples of to go see were the H-R Rasmus and the Dickerson 36 I bought. Both originally came in ketch and sloop rigs and are from the early 1970's. The Dickerson 36 additionally came in both center and aft cockpit versions for a total of 4 configurations out there. My boat met all the criteria except (4), which you and Sailing Project Atticus have convinced me is possible to add. As for the sailing, no blue water yet, but I've had her out in squalls (10-15 knots to over 40 knots in a minute) and small craft advisories. She takes it all well and I think she will do well in the open ocean. Sailing on the jib and mizzen is great, and when the winds come up, my standard practice is to drop the main. I also put the mizzen up first and take it down last. The main that came with the boat was end of life, so I wound up ordering a new one last year. The sailmaker put in one reef point standard, and would but in up to two more for a fee. If I had a sloop, with my plans to go offshore, I would have wanted the extra reef points. But I figure that with a ketch, where sloop sailors would put in a 2nd or 3rd reef, I would just drop the main and use the mizzen.
As I mentioned above, when I got the boat, the main was almost dead. The surveyor thought it might be original to my 1973 boat. However, I was able to determine that the sailmaker whose tag was on the sail only existed for a few years in the early to mid 1990's. The surveyors words were "In the first good blow, this sail will turn to ribbons." As a result, we initially treated the main as a light air sail, and those habits have carried over to the new heavy-duty main I got with intentions of sailing offshore. The above mentioned squall hit at the end of our first real sail: a 33 hour non-stop to get the boat to her new home just after I bought her. My son and I were exhausted, but, while knuckles were white, we managed to drop the main relatively uneventfully with my son at the mast and me at the helm. All the halyards (3 main mast, 2 mizzen) are at their respective masts, and I plan to keep them that way. There are no "spares" - the boat came with 5 sails: a 130 roller furling Genoa, a "storm" jib that goes on a removable forestay, main, mizzen, and a mizzen staysail. I have yet to fly the storm jib or the mizzen staysail because there are issues with each and I've been busy on other boat projects. We had her at hull speed (about 7 knots) on a broad reach with just the Genoa and mizzen in 25+ knots of wind, and it seemed to me to be a comfortable ride. She's a full keel boat, and pointing is an issue. The main that came with the boat had partial battens and was fairly blown out. For the new sail, I went with 2 full battens and 2 partial. I've seen some improvement, and I will probably go with all full battens if I ever need a new sail. I also think a smaller jib could help with the pointing. One final point in this very long reply: I originally thought I wanted a roller furling main. I was also initially considering larger boats (which I consider yours to be an example). There was always a question of "Do I buy a smaller boat now, or save a few more years and get a bigger boat." I've done LOTS of costal and lake sailing, but not any blue water. After several year of looking and planning and thinking about what I wanted, I went on a Morse Alpha Expeditions training course with an offshore passage. It was amazing, but Ben and Teresa are a bit old school and don't believe in stuff like furling. There were 7 people on their Norseman 447, and we all got a good workout on passage. At that point, I was already thinking more about smaller boats, in terms of being able to handle it solo if need be. I saw the boat I bought right afterwards. If I were to get a bigger boat like yours, I might want furling sails (though system breakdowns would be a concern), but I find the sails (except the Genoa) in my 36' ketch manageable without furling, and that was the final point that pushed me towards a smaller boat.
Two cents worth. Ketches “in their time” have been excellent in part I think the attraction was to get a generous sail plan (and gear changes to suit) whilst all along allowing it to be sailed and handled by a couple. The earlier Dacron mainsails started to get really heavy with a luff length of greater than 12metres so two masts gave you the same sail are as you might get with an 18 metre mast an the corresponding 55 - 60 ft yachts - in more recent times sails can now be less than 50% the weight add to the fact that sail handling systems have improved out of sight making sailing a sloop ( single mast) quite achievable. Having said all of that a Swan 65 ketch is nothing short of pretty
I can't really comment as a novice and not have sailed on a ketch, but I've been on sloops in decent wind and struggled to find a balance. When we go as an older couple, I like what ketch rigs have to offer, on paper, as well as center cockpit. Safety and comfort are top of my list.
Curious if you were ever to change your boat, would you buy another Ketch? And do you guys have a dream boat that' you would love to live on if the stars were to align? Always good to see a video from you guys....keeping us entertained and informed in lock down. Hopefully sailing starts again for you soon.
OMG! Great educational vid! Yes, sailed many, ketch is the best for blue water. Balance is the key. Blue water, monohull is the only way. Want to "camp" in the BVI's, buy a cat. Want to see the world?...mono ketch. You guys have nailed it in this presentation. I will "follow" the boat!
Ketches and yawls were the prevailing rigs for years...a lot of dimension and flexibility for cruising ... The Oysters and Amels are a delight. I have a leisureful boom sloop . I amconverting to a slutter rig for ease of handling. Your points are entirely valid.Reminds me of the famous Maruffa a Bermuda Rhodes yawl. A very informative lesson. For real sailors, a Ketch is ideal.Balance, and more balance with a balanced rig. Say please create a cocktail " the jig and jigger" And looks so classic. SV Venceremos , a Sparkman Stephen's mono 54' ...
Ooooh ,S&S 54. I''m jealous! Actually we did invent a cocktail once. I'm sure it is already established but I've never seen it before (it involves mainly watermelon juice) and we called it the Espeer cocktail. Maybe we should rename it to the 'jig and jigger'.
@@followtheboat you have my legal endorsement Let me know what's in it and I will include it in cook book we are working on... I was invited to sail on the Maruffa at 18 But had to pass because of Vietnam Love and enjoy your channel . .you got the spirit of the kon tiki Happy mothers day, you are a credit to your mothers!
I have sailed on friends' ketches, and recently bought a Pearson 365 ketch for the reasons you mentioned. While it is not rigged as a cutter, like yours, it has a removable solent stay. As far as RUclips channels with ketches go, there is you, Delos, and Atticus that I can think of off the top of my head. Oh, and I should mention that I have seen a catamaran ketch.
Hi Jeff. Yes, someone else mentioned a catamaran ketch. I've only seen one and it never left the marina so I've no idea how it performs. I do know someone designing a two-masted cat with a mast on each hull. It should be interesting to see how that performs when he launches. I believe he's going to start building it in six months' time.
@@followtheboat Such a design '(cat with masts on each hull) dates back some 25 years ago. The problem at the time was how to properly support the mast with wide enough stays given the narrow hulls on a cat.
I've had a few boats over my 80 yrs 95% single hander. UK Waters till 31. Australian and N.Z Waters from then on. A mix of Timber 27ft Nicholson. 27ft '65 Planked (Beautiful little girl.) Concrete 32ft. 32ft Pugh Moonwind Centre cockpit. then 2 x Boden South Seas 42ft. Cutter and Ketch. I usually didn't go out in less than 25 knots. liked heavy weather. Hence the Steel, Plus I bounced off a Container once Adelaide to Strahan (Tassie) in the '80's) and Smaller boats. 85% Coastal (Commitments. Family ashore). The 32 ft I found fine. 42 better for offshore for carrying capacity for longer trips. Cutter with a ghoster off forestay. Loose footed rather than a kite. The Pugh ofter running and reaching at 7 to 8 knots. The 42fters very little faster. You can set ALL boats to self steer on sails. PROVIDING the rig is balanced and hull form well designed. Mechanical. For over 40 yrs on all boats (had mix of solar, towing and shaft logs)) I had a Wheel Autopilot. Combined with a small electrical "Windvand" from a TILLER steer AutoP. Mounted on Side rail out of sail draught. When off shore and clear of coatstal variances. You can usually travel on sails set. Watching for wind shifte For days usually. Wave/swell sets give a good mental chart of any shifts. Coastal the wind vane Pilot did good job for me. I preferred Cutter to Ketch. Lazy. Smaller boats. Easier. Less travel distances, not so much carrying capacity needed. Plus. Single. Peaceful. No disagreements. You F-- up. Nobody but YOU to blame. Fix it. I've travelled round most on Westerm world. Plus Asia. My choices. Done Atlantic in 'late '50,s (27ft Nich when it was popular. Almost ran out of water. twice.) Fish for food Food) Both ways are fine but I have medical reasons for being not too far from treatment. My Coastal kept me within reach of facility's. Do them both... BUT Coastal Stay under 5 ft draught and preferably steel in either. They dent, rather than hole. And real easy to repair. IE fix patches. Weld. Cats to easy to flip if you lose it in Curly tops and hollow backs. (been there 32fter and North Sea Trawlers in mid '50's in winter season) ) Just enjoy it. It's ALl ways great. I was brought up in a North East fishing port/fishing fleet. (Suttons. Hartlepool I remember the last STEAM Trawler. "Longscar") So enjoyed it bouncy and interesting. Not flat, boring water. Just me. Lost depth of field in vision. No more bouncy. bouncy.
Was thinking about an amel super maramu 2000 because of the ketch rigging and from watching delos. But, even with amel, they now build sloops instead of ketches. So also looking at jeauneau sun odyssey 49, 54 ds, or beneteau oceanis. This is for someone who want to potentially have the option of sailing in open water at some point, be able to keep the boat over decades, but otherwise new to sailing.
Hey at 13:30 , when you mentioned shorter sails have less impact in terms of structural wear n tear, I know nothing about physics but shouldn't shorter sails have more tensions at the joint? Longer and heavier mast distributes tension more equally as a 1 unit instead of a unit with a weaker link attached? I am trying to picture this in my head that the ship will rock together in motion with a higher and heavier mast as a whole unit rather with shorter sails and mast, the ship won't rock with it and is more stationary therefore with high wind the forces will be greater where the smaller mast and ship meets and they will be more likely to break? I know nothing about this or anything related to sailing, just curious. Edit: Now I am really curious about the physic part of this, if anyone can explain it ll be very appreciated
Great video! I'm looking and learning all the little differences in set ups for the future purchase 😎 this isa very helpful video. Fair seas be safe and Happy New Year
Also a super tall mast of a sloop attracts lightning more, difficult to manage, and can't get underneath many bridges. And of course a ketch looks better.
So now I'm confused, to my understanding thus far the difference between cutter and sloop rig is the distance from the bow the main mast is stepped, sloop 30% loa. A sloop rig can have two head sails in two possible configurations one where both headsails are head mounted on the mast and one baby stay mounted, the cutter may or may not have the stay sail . I am still learning with a plan to be "sailing " or more accurately travelling by sail boat later this year so please correct me if I am mistaken. cheers
@@followtheboat see my reply above. paraphrased here.. Cutter or Stay Sail rigged Sloop ??? The Royal Ocean Racing Club (RORC) states 'A cutter is defined as a boat that uses two headsails simultaneously to windward i.e. close-hauled.' However, the question of whether a yacht is sloop rigged, cutter rigged, Solent rigged or slutter rigged has changed over the years. Traditionally the sloop rig was a rig with a single mast located forward of 50% of the length of the sail-plan. In this traditional definition a sloop could have multiple jibs. Cutters had a rig with a single mast located 50% of the length of the sail-plan or further aft, multiple headsails and reefing bowsprit. Somewhere in the 1950's or 1960's there was a shift in these definitions such that a sloop only flew one headsail and a cutter had multiple headsails and mast position became irrelevant. In parallel, cutters have been described as requiring to have a yankee jib cut high and a matched stay sail to be a true cutter. Yachts flying a genoa and a stay sail have been described as not having a true cutter rig, but merely a sloop fitted with a stay sail. This is especially true if the stay sail can be detached at the tack for quick tacking. On the occasion I have used cutter to describe our yacht Miss Saigon, the old salts, especially those in the tall ship world where I have a presence have taken me to task, pointing out the error of my ways. However and equally, much of the terminology we use in yachting doesn't cut across the tall ship spectrum. Despite a few dozen years involvement with the tall ship barquentine Leeuwin II (I recently concluded my involvement as Chair of the Foundation), the tall ship enthusiasts take great delight in reminding me, "that you're not on Daddy's yacht now Terry"
@@captainsalty56 so many contradictory definitions have now read many articles and references on the sloop\cutter definition and the results are almost all different to some extent both in the units used to measure the mast position and whether the bowsprit length counts or not. I think in the end the common quick check method appears to be that the sloop mast is 1/3 loa and the cutter is further aft up to 1\2 loa they seem to have changed actual definitions depending on who the revered naval architect or rigger is at the time
@@gmoose777 Yes, the definitions continually change. My reference to RORC was the result of entering an offshore event where they refused to accept our yacht as a 'sloop'. Got my heckles up! The quote I used was the exact wording in their reply. Want a different answer - ask a different person. Want 10 different answers ask 10 different people!
Very nice guys, i think your right with the poll on youtube sailing channels, i know I personally voted Cat, for purely comfort but having sailed so little even that was an Assumption. Thanks guys!
Wonderful Video - Just wish I'd seen it before buying our vessel - I always liked ketches always drawing them as a young lad - not sure why. I should have gone with the gut feeling. We have a 46ft beneteau Oceanis 2007 model - and after a few years getting to know her, fixing things, digging around her hull and finding construction flaws - I'm not sure that I have the confidence to live the dream I bought her for. I know Bluewater sailing is about the crew, the experience and confidence rather than the vessel but ... Thank you once again and stay safe.
I’m retired from USCG, with 7 years sea duty. 3 diff ships on the west coast, 1 on the east coast. @ 65 & Having seen what the ocean can do, add a dark moonless night & the breaking waves, the thought in small boats is spooky to me! Never was seasick! Pitch pole or roll over rattles me. That’s it. Although, My fantasy boat has always been the Morgan OI 41’!
I like the ketch rig now I'm curious to how much of a difference there is between the furling in mast main versus the more standard main sail and or the boom version of the main sail. I'm not an expert but I would think that the boom furling main would be the best way to go.
We are looking for our first boat and couple we are considering have Ketch rigs - this has been a very helpful video thanks and loving how versatile a ketch rig can be
wow man i love how the sails roll up on each mast.. now im wandering what the florida usa cost would be to convert my 1977 morgan 41 ketch to this much easier handling sail and mast. i like the .. just crank n go.. me i got lazy jacks and old sails .and a rusting away main mast plate. im going to do a refit haul out next year. and i like your way of sailing.. and boat set up.. going to get new custom made solar arch and dingy davits id also like a welded up cage for a mini split up above my head blowing back to stern.. yea might be noise a lil out side but life support is ac in south florida..lol have big plans for this boat next year, for now she is resting safely and peacfully in her slip. waiting for her refit .... fair winds and following seas.....
I've got a cutter ketch rigged Endurance 35 and whilst I agree wth all the points you made, you did miss one further point. They just look a lot prettier than sloops and catamarans whilst they have their place could never really be described as classically beautiful :)
Woe! You could make an entire Channel about this one subject... There are so many variables that there cannot be a perfect boat for every person... I had a 43 Foot Ketch and found it too much work (I'm the Laziest SOB on the planet) to sail alone (the way I like to be). However, I fully agree that having the mizzen made steering the vessel a lot easier when alone... I could point the boat and go below to make a meal without much concern... I am thinking also, that having a Cutter greatly improved the speed in lighter winds. I see many boats that are Ketches that are not Cutters and/or have removed the Staysail and wonder, "What's the point?" But I have to say, my next boat will probably be another Ketch... Oh! You didn't mention the Keel... Having a Full Keel would make a huge difference for Blue Water Sailing... I'll shut up now... :-) Great video :-)
Great comment, thank you. Yes, there is so much to discuss here. We just wanted to provide some pointers and maybe convince some people that for blue water cruising a ketch is spot on. We can be lazy too though 😁
Best rig for sure but you need a cutter rig as well to get everything out of it. great show like usable. catamaran are nice for space but would not trust if for blue water cruising. but second thing is underwater profile inducing rudder hanging. Fair winds and flowing seas.
Hmm, I'm a bit rusty but it has always been my impression that the primary and guiding distinction of a ketch sailing plan is that the mizen is forward of the rudder, which may or may not be fore or aft of the helm. I'm no expert but I do recall some aspects of the Yawl's (rear wheel drive) characteristic being more interesting than a yawl from an engineering standpoint - aside from performance.
I like ketch sailboats also. I would only use the the main mask, & if something should ever happen to the main mask, you have the mizzen mask to get back to land and a port to fix the damaged main mask.
in smaller boats yawl rig seems to be more popular than ketch. Probably it would be interesting to compare yawl, ketch and schooner for singlehanded sailing. It looks like popularity of the rig is mostly connected with size of the boat. Then when we look at people who do serious singlehanded cruising surprisingly many used yawls. Now i wonder whether choice between this 3 types of dual mast rigging is mostly size dependent or there might be other factors.
@@followtheboat it seems to be extinct among production boats but i still see lot of videos from microcruisers niche. This boats are many times self built, usually not designed to cross the oceans, until someone do it ... again. Not sure what is the record for the smallest boat, though 650 transat looks big compared to this vessels. If i recall correctly Joshua Slocum used sloop/cutter but the next solo circumnavigation was done on a yawl (Harry Pidgeon). Their boats were really huge compared to modern attempts.
Great video, you guys are always so reasonable! Although I have very little to no sailing experience I have been watching these sailing videos for over 5 years and think the ketch is the most practical for long-term sailing. It all comes down to purpose though and with the catamaran vs mono hull IMO the decision comes down comfort to live in vs comfort to sail in. If did go with a multi-hull much prefer to do a tri than cat. I will definitely agree that the results would differ with boat owners. I think a lot of people don't factor in the overall cost of ownership and hands down a cat will be the most expensive. So hope all those cat voters have deep pockets!
Some good points there. In terms of rigging the cat is going to be a lot cheaper but two engines will set that back for starters. There are many factors when thinking of buying a boat and its off-shore performance is only one aspect. Thanks for your thoughts 👍
Helpful information. I assume that the answer is "yes," but can you confirm that the pros cons listed in your video apply also to yawls? Seems like the main difference is that yawls tend to be aft cockpit boats. Thanks in advance for your response, love the videos.
Hi Mark. Normally after being in light winds we might start to reef the main down first, so it's still up with all other sails up. As the winds build we'll drop the main altogether (or, in our case, furl it away) and only then would we run jib and jigger. That said if we know the weather is going to be unpredictable when we start out we won't put the main out in the first place.
Your video on the advantages of a ketch was great. Would it be possible, for you to do another rather technical video about the use of your mizzen gennaker and other downwind sail configurations? Also, I didn’t catch the build of your ketch. Everyone knows the Amels. What other boat brands have built quality ketches?
I give u a big 👍 for both of u.. coz in ur age u still sailing around n share ur experience.. have a good n safe journey for both of u.. love from Indonesia...
Great discussion because I'm not a sailor, and just a dreamer with much to learn. What are some enduring/popular Ketches under 40 feet for solo cruising?
Use to race on a cruising boat, a ketch rigged 65' swan, Always raced with Mizzen up, except once when Mission backstay Tensioning did not work, we did better, much better, many weeks, but that was with upwind legs, maybe best compromise is Mizzen down for upwind. True better balancing, and insurance for night sailing, but then for cruising I would lament the loss of Solar panel real estate, and with aft cockpit as swan has, no bimini.
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Subscribed! great video!
With so many people always thinking sloops are easier and that ketches are old and outdated with no practical purpose I think the modern youtube zietgist has everyone hoodwinked. This sail plan makes a lot of sense in that you have smaller sails to work with. I DO think that this means the boat suffers in lighter winds, but frankly as a liveaboard I am more concerned about safety in heavy winds, especially as this means in weather that others may not be able to sail in, I CAN, and with the frequency of more and more storms as the earth warms I think the wisdom of a heavier boat with more options in how you hoist the sails really does make sense!
I own a 43' catamaran, and it's GREAT for living on. And I know that people cross oceans in them. But I think a cutter ketch is absolutely the right rig for long passages. And they're SO BEAUTIFUL.
Appreciate your honesty, Paul, and yeah, we forgot to make the point about their aesthetics!
I liked your comment. I bet the view alone is worth it!
@@followtheboat yeah I am looking at getting a Cutter ketch and it does look very romantic! haha
We sailed our Amel Mango for 10 years. We rerigged her as a Cutter-Ketch after 5 years, before our Pacific crossing by adding a meter long bowsprit. What an ideal improvement. We crossed wing and wing at 8 knots. We sold Tempest in Australia, but after a year we bought an experienced Privilege 42. Between the two, the Amel is suited for heavy weather, the Cat, not. Our current program includes rotating our grandkids on board. Better for the kids. After so many years of just the two, it is a gift to share with the next generation. Our ketch in her past made 4 Atlantic crossings, Sailed North to Spitsbergen, as Far East as Croatia, and West to Perth via the south shore. We miss her greatly. Her last suit of sails was a pure pleasure, with a lighter weight 130 Genoa and heavier working jib she kept us safe. I hope her new owner has half the adventures we had.
Gratitude to yss for this excellent presentation. I am about to begin sailing. I bought a Bruce Roberts Offshore 44 ketch quite randomly because of a low price for it's majestic size inside and it's beauty. So wow, I'm stoked even more now!
Excellent news and fair winds to you on your new found live at sea 😃
Thanks for taking the time to explain the advantages, I always wanted to steer away, but you have changed my mind
A mizzen mast is also nice for drying towels and hanging laundry.
🤣🧺🎽
Blessings to you both!!! My husband and I (58 and 59) are shopping for our live aboard. Without knowing why, I said, "I don't believe we should get a ketch because I am already a bit overwhelmed by all the things that need maintenance, repairing, then replacing." THANK YOU for this!!! We have been researching and researching... exhausting really, but a lot of FUN! Now you've helped us because my husband wants a ketch but will never force anything on me (I'm quite the lucky girl! 🤭). He knows quite a bit and your video drove it home for me! We're truly grateful and hope to meet you "some day" on a passage! I'll be the nut selling freshly baked organic breads and crackers!!! You will get some free! 🤭🤣😂🙏❤️
Stay safe!
Thanks for the lovely comment, I'm so pleased the video helped. Can't wait to taste some of that home baking. 😁 Liz
I have been sailing my Allied Princess 36 ketch for 25 years and agree with much of what you said. There are a few things that I differ on though. First, my Allied was available as either a ketch or a sloop. The masts are deck stepped and the boat was built with two positions for the main mast. The ketch has the main farther forward than the sloop. That combined with the shorter main mast on a ketch means that the fore sail is considerably smaller than on a sloop for the same % of overlap. Because of the mizzen mast, even with the main farther forward the main boom is shorter than on a sloop which also further decreases the size of the main sail. An additional advantage of the shorter masts on a ketch is that the center of effort of the sails is lower than on a sloop which allows you to carry more sail in stronger winds for the same amount of heel (all other things being equal). Although pointing ability is much more a factor of the combination of underbody and sail plan design. If you want a boat to point high, then you want a tall high aspect rig AND a deep high aspect fin keel to provide plenty of lift. The difference in pointing ability of a full keel ketch like mine and a fin keel sloop can be significant (10+ degrees). However the ability to point high also generally comes with a much less comfortable ride since the sloop that points high will generally have a very shallow canoe body and correspondingly smaller displacement for the same boat length.
Most larger ketches are center cockpit designs. However smaller ketches (say under 38'-40') are generally aft cockpit designs with the mizzen in the cockpit. Having the mizzen in the cockpit clutters up the cockpit rather a lot, but it also provides something to hang onto. You do have to look around the mizzen when steering though.
The mizzen masts on ketches often have poor forward staying which makes the mast rather springy. This is particularly true on smaller boats with deck stepped masts. However if you have a triatic that issue goes away. As a seasonal sailor whose boat is hauled out annually for the winter I had to rig my triatic so that it can be removed without going up the mast. That way of rigging the triatic would allow me to cast the triatic off in the event of losing the main, perhaps keeping the mizzen standing (if I was fast enough).
As an older sailor (70+) whose crew is primarily a passenger due to age based limitations, I have been sailing my ketch without the main for the last few years. For the last two years I haven't even put the main boom on. In anything over 15 knots I can make hull speed without the main.
As a rule, ketches because of the more forward center of effort of the sail plan and shorter sail plan do not point as high as sloops. That is accentuated for older full keel designs like my Allied. While that isn't a huge problem for offshore sailors, the lack of pointing ability can mean an extra tack or two when sailing inshore and trying to clear a headland.
Overall, I too prefer the ketch. I very much like being able to sail my boat jib and jigger without leaving the cockpit.
Sir Francis Chichester clearly agreed....his record setting Gypsy Moth IV was a ketch.
I had a 76' cutter Yawl and sailed extensively in both the Pacific and Atlantic. I found that I had the performance of a Sloop but the small mizzen balanced the boat and became the wind vane.
I recently completed a 10 year circumnavigation. Cherubini 44. Inspired by the most winning yacht in ocean racing history-Ticonderoga. Double headed ketch with roller 120 jib, club footed reefing staysail. Roller furling main on a Goetz Marine custom carbon fiber main, (previous owner was very good to this boat),large reefing mizzen. Well canvassed with S/A 19.3. Best motion comfort index of 50 other yachts that I compared her to. Faster than a 56 foot VandeStad design across the Indian Ocean in both light winds and in brisk conditions with the usual 3- 4 meter seas. I have hove to in 60 knots with the heavily reefed main alone. No mizzen or jib necessary ( I have experimented with all the possible sail combinations and found the main alone to be best on Wavelength. Mizzen staysail is the secret weapon in that I feel comfortable leaving this sail up at night as it is of modest size and I can douse in it’s sock from just a step forward of the cockpit. Only in extremely settled conditions would I fly the drifter at night. Just too many night time squalls. This boat does not have the McMansion space down below of “modern designs”, but it has great storage . Did back to back solo 210 and 200 NM days on Brasil to Caribbean passage this year. Secret tip- build a small boom gallows for the club footed jib out of 1 inch stainless. When dousing, first secure staysail boom , then flake sail. That way the boom provides a secure hand hold on the deck that does not swing side to side.
Wow! Thanks for commenting, great information. 👍 Liz
Hi - how do you hove-to with just one sail?! I thought the idea of hoving to was the opposite forces of the main and jib (I sail a tri.). Surely, w just one sail, you've tacked?
@@marksten620 Mark, I have tried backwinded jib and heavily reefed main(5 five foot of roller furler main) and was blown 38 miles downwind in a 45 knot gale. With just 5 feet of main in 60 knot gail, Wavelength hove to well to my amazement. Note that she is full keel with cut away forefoot. I have also tried including the mizzen. My go to remains the main only with preventer/ down haul to toe rail.
@@followtheboat Liz, I learned the hard way to sail the boat as the previous owner was not able to inform me Wavelength’s characteristics . Must say I have enjoyed the rig for offshore work immensely. I also have extensive experience on a Swan 43, sloop. Hands down the ketch with full keel is much more seaworthly, faster , seakindly motion and gives confidence that more reefs can be taken as the wind increases. Happy sailing!!!
@@markbigalke4669 Thanks for your reply, Mark. My experience of backward drift when hove to was also a lot faster than the books suggest -- about 3kts in 45kts of wind. I look forward to learning more about my Gin Fizz ketch.
Man, I could write an entire book on this answer. I think what you really meant was "What is the best sailboat TYPE to CRUISE around the world"... as I don't think you mean any of those offshore racing machines with 20 crew... I am a Bluewater KETCH sailor and have about 8000 miles on the open ocean in some very challenging conditions (Amel Super Maramu). It drives me crazy to hear (usually video-sailors or charter boat skippers) talk about Catamarans for speed... but for anything much more than an overnight passage that's just not reality.
Because of their speed, Catamarans can "make their own wind" and unfortunately as things get a bit rougher, the apparent wind moves forward and increases which makes dumping sail even tougher and it's very easy to get into a situation where the sails are driving the boat far too hard and you can capsize the boat or lose the rig. As a result most Catamarans ACTUALLY cruise with far less than optimal sail out - especially after dark and so they don't rack up anything like their potential daily mile total and if you look at the ARC or Pacific Puddle Jump results, you will find that many Sloops and Ketches easily match or beat the times of even the fastest Cataramans.
For example, in the 2019 ARC (Atlantic Rally for Cruisers), while admittedly, the fastest time was set by a couple of very fast Marsaudan cats at 14D:15H and 16D:3H respectively, if you take those two boats away, there were 26 monohulls including everything from stock standard Beneteaus, Hanses and Jeanneaus beating EVERY OTHER CATAMARAN out there. The third fastest monohull (5th overall) was a Beneteau 40 at 17D:10H. The slowest passage time was a Catamaran and 28/40 of the Catamarans did it under 23D... while 90/120 of the monohulls beat 23D. The median time for a catamaran to make the crossing was 21D:03H with an Outremar 51 (a very fast cat) while the median time for a monohull was 20D:20H in a Bavaria Cruiser 40 - not exactly a screamer. So, you don't buy a cruising catamaran for speed no matter how fast they go. If you want a house on floats, fine... but don't justify it based on speed.
So... Sloop or Ketch (assuming Cutter for both). For me, Ketch... for all of the reasons you put forward. Just so much more flexibility and ease of sail handling for a couple (which really means single handing it - as you don't want to have to wake your partner ever time you need to make a sail change). That mizzen is brilliant in changing conditions and when you are flying the Mizzen Ballooner/staysail along with the cutters up front, they are so pretty they make your eyes bleed. One other advantage, the mast height is lower so you can get under more bridges... the US Intercoastal has a limit of 65'.. many ketches can slide under those but their sloop brothers would leave the top quarter of the mast on the bridge if they tried it.
That said, these days, because of the power of the electric winches and significant extra cost of twin masts/booms/rigs and more sails, new sailboats have moved away from Ketches. The last Amel Ketches were a LOT more money than their current sloops and people weren't buying them as a result so the market moved to sloops.
At the end of it, it really comes down to what do you want to do with the boat... Then you have to figure out where you are going... if you are doing the trade wind/puddle jump route and probably won't go across the Indian Ocean past Thailand or around Cape of Good Hope, then that's one thing... if you are going into areas where you could see some REAL blue water conditions... then that's a totally different thing. With a really good reason, I could probably be convinced to take a Beneteau or Jeanneau or even a Catamaran across the typical Canary Islands to Caribbean or even to the Marquessas from Panama but I wouldn't ever want to take one down the east coast of America or Africa through the Gulf Stream or Agulas Current respectively, from the Society Islands up or down to NZ or Sydney to Hobart and there is no way in hell you could ever talk me into taking one around Cape Horn although some have done so. Some people jump out of perfectly good aeroplanes too... but that's not for me.
Some people want a house on floats... like the big patio doors at the back but having seen 20-30' waves chasing (and overtaking as they move much faster than even catamarans can go), I just couldn't put myself in that situation if I'm really sailing around the world but if I was going to charter a boat in the Caribbean or Greek Islands, and take along my family, then I'd take a Cat.
I think you neatly put everything in perspective with that comment, Steve thank you. And yes, the thumbnail and title are often a little different from the thrust of the content just because of youtube algorithms, but you get where we're coming from. Thanks for your thoughts on the subject. Peace and fair winds to you ✌⛵
A floating home's draft ( catamarans ) can get into places a ketch can only dream of . Although you do win over knock down in a storm
You’re quoting performance handicap corrected times. Actual time on the water showed plenty of catamarans going faster than mono’s.
@@mosca3289 No catamaran other than the Mausardon's were faster than December 11th uncorrected. Most were somewhere around December 13th... Same for most mono's... net is Cat's in cruising configurations aren't necessarily faster than mono's... which was my point.
Steve Burton I’m looking at the official World Cruising Club website and I see Outremer 5X arrived 8 Dec, Swiss Cat 55 and Grainger 60 arrived 10 December, a handful of family sailed Lagoon 52’s arrived 11 December. Your “aren’t necessarily faster” gives you plenty of wriggle room but actually you’ve got the basic facts wrong.
www.worldcruising.com/content/S637121288219394921/ARC2019_MultihullDivision_OverallResults.pdf
We are shabby coastal cruisers and rarely get more than 5-10 miles from the shore.on our 35' sloop, even though our center-cockpit Hallberg-Rassy is a bluewater boat which has plied the Atlantic a number of times before we were the owners -but we aren't quite there yet in our cruising career. There was a ketch-rigged version of this boat but sadly ours is not one of those. They did move the mast step forward a bit less than a meter for this hull on the ketch, as well as shorter.
And that brings us to one thing that you didn't touch on as an advantage of the ketch rig. They generally have lower mast heights, and that means in coastal areas where there are a lot of bridges and power cables the air draft is much less likely to be an issue or obstacle to navigation. On the US East Coast there is the ICW -or Intra-Coastal Waterway, with many bridges along the 2000+ mile route.
While they are all supposed to be at least 65' tall, in reality with seasonal flooding and very high tides at times plus wind-driven tides many cruisers have issues getting under many of these bridges. Some bridges were built a bit lower than planned and some predate the standard such as one near Miami called the Julia Tuttle Causeway Bridge which requires boats higher than 56' to take the outside route through that area.
With a ketch, that is usually not a problem on boats even up to 50' in length. Our mast height is a shade under 50' so we can get under many bridges that typical larger cruising boats with 60+ foot masts simply cannot. The ICW is an extremely popular protected migratory route for thousands of cruisers in the US. It does not take much research online in online cruising communities to see a lot of kvetching about bridge heights every season as many cruisers deal with it. Having a ketch-rigged sailboat means you probably don't need to worry about that.
Yes, we're a couple of foot shorter than most sloops the same size. More i importantly, James, you raise a valid point about the mast position. Somewhere I have the blueprints for the Oyster 435 and I'm not sure if that too shows the ketch version with the mast further forward, which coincides with some people saying that a true cutter has a main mast further forward. I need to dig it out. I will confirm this in the next video if I am wrong of course!
Our boat is deck-stepped. They left a large thickened part of the deck between the two bulkheads that form the head down the center of the ship. Raised about 30mm off the surrounding deck to either side to keep water off like a platform
On the sloop the mast is stepped just forward of the aft bulkhead with a square wood compression post laminated right onto it and under the mast.
I've never been in the ketch version but I imagine that the compression post is mounted on the forward bulkhead in the head instead with the mast step right above that as well. That moves it probably about 80-90cm further forward.
Clever design to accommodate either rigging. I'm not sure exactly how they moved all the chainplates forward too. I suppose they leapfrogged them all forward the same amount which was different structures (hips?) inside the hull to mount them too, but at least the mold for the deck fiberglass was the same for either configuration.
Thank you for this video. As a couch sailor, a ketch seemed like a very complicated setup. Thank you for explaining the advantages, its changed my mind about what makes as easy to sail boat.
We love our ketch for its versatility and ease of use. 🙏 Liz
Not a dry topic at all Liz! Love hearing your views on this. SY Miss Foxy is a cutter-rigged sloop (Jeanneau 53) and the only drawback after doing around 10,000nm on her since buying her in Tahiti in Oct/2017 was that the massive mainsail is a mitt-full to manage shorthanded but wow she lifts her skirts with slightly cracked sheets. Very exhilarating! And coming into cruising after racing a dozen yachts over the past 30 years, performance (speed) was a priority for us.
"Lift her skirts" is now my favourite sailing term, Bill! Thanks for that and thanks for the feedback 👍
@@followtheboat Ha ha! All yours to use! Every yacht has a sweet point of sail and ours "lifts her skirts" when close-reaching. Those aerial shots of Esper look like she lifts her skirts with wind just forward of her beam. Lovely shots!
Personally I think a cutter rigged ketch under full sail looks absolutely beautiful. I fell in love with Laura Dekker's Guppy, a Jeanneau Gin Fizz ketch, and was hooked on your channel when I realised Esper was the same rig. Stay safe.
Cheers, Colin. Yes, although aesthetics don't make the boat any more comfortable, it's an added bonus.
been researching sailboats for over a year and i am rock solid on a Morgan Ketch, 40-50ft, love the older versions of the Morgans ,70s and 80s
Ted Irwin was the designer at Morgan before he started Irwin Yachts. I understand he made deals to use their hull molds on several Irwin models, including My 45' Ketch.
The best is the one that reaches the destination.
I have never owned a ketch. I have sailed on a few. For me I would say general rule of thumb is less than 45' all inboard cutter rig, over 45' cutter rigged ketch. The first f/g sailboat to circumnavigate was a Tom Gillmer designed Allied Seawind ketch. But that was long ago before the advent of readily available windvane self steering and the plethora of electronic autopilots. The additional cost and complexity of the ketch in smaller boats must be balanced against the "drive" that the split rig delivers. I converted my previous(Cape Dory 28) and current(S2 11c) boat to a cutter. I find that both sail well off the wind with just the s'sail. I even sailed many miles under reefed s'sail on the CD 28 after rounding Good Hope in 35+ knot winds and 4~5 meter seas.
I built and sailed a 30' junk rigged sloop for a number of years. While not as weatherly as a sloop or cutter it was far easier to handle, especially for me, a solo sailor. Bill King aboard Galway Blazer II, a schooner rigged junk would have handily won the first nonstop solo circumnavigation had his unstayed foremast not broken while crossing the Atlantic on the final leg of the trip.
My father owned an 80's 44 or 46ft Spirit yacht sailboat, the hulls on those are epoxy laminated wood. It was a ketch rig sailboat. He would never use the smaller mast in the rear. He always said, that only if the main mast breaks, or is inoperable. He was a structural engineer. I remember when we dry docked it, he attached these wing looking stabilizers to the vertical keel, & at the bottom it has a winged shaped bulb that was full of led. He also attached chine runners on both sides of the back of the hull, about 2 ft below the water line. After he did all this the boat heeled a lot less, & seem to porpose less, but rode lower in the water, but much more stabile. He told me, in the summer of 90 that SWATH boats would be the hulls of the future because the hulls rode beneath the surface of the water, & if they are made rhe right shape say with vertical stabilizers on them they could be very stabile in rough water with very little movement, I still don't understand why there isn't any SWATH HULL SAILBOATS.
I’ve had numerous sailing craft, but absolutely luved my Cheoy Lee offshore 31 ketch! Very stable & not at all slow! Was the perfect rig 4 Puget Sound, especially if there was a bit of a blow & heavier seas! Our C&C 33 may b bigger , lighter & faster, but not nearly as easy 2 handle as the little ketch! Kind of a racing boat! 2 many strings 2 pull! The Cheoy Lee just holds her course without anyone at the helm & no autopilot! Sweet little boat! And the wooden spars were beautiful in the setting sunlight! Fair winds & thanx 4 the video!
I have a question. Cheoy Lee boats have a lot of wood on their deck and most of their boats have a wooden rigging. How hard is it to maintain it? Is it expensive? Because I'm thinking of buying one someday and I'm concerned if I could manage all this wood. I wouldn't want to put myself into all this just to see my boat rotting, you know. I don't have any experience with teak decks too, so please answer if you'd be so kind.
We have a 41 Morgan sloop and love the way it sails. However I also sail for charter 41 Morgan ketch and at first didn’t know much about using the mizzen. It changed my mind and it true the versatility was amazing. Also when you balance the sails it’s been one of the best sailing experiences I’ve had. She pointed and it was as if she was on rails. 3 hours and never touched the helm. I have sailed all kinds and I have to agree there are some great advantages of a ketch.
Cheers, Ron. Yes, that balance takes the strain off the autopilot too, something we forgot to mention.
Thanks so much for this post on the ketch. I'm looking at one, didn't know anything about them but have a better idea now.
Glad you found it useful, Michael. Good luck in your search 👍
@@followtheboat thanks again its an older Dufor
Great Article WHY A KETCH IS THE BEST OFFSHORE SAILBOAT Jamie. It explained the sails and setup very well. Really enjoy your videos. John D
Thanks for the positive feedback, John.
We sail a cutter rigged ketch, and have been cruising the Pacific for ten years. I like the variety of the sail plan. We joke that we will never win a race, but checking the log I was surprised to find that we averaged 132 nautical miles (per 24 hr.) on our trip from San Diego to Victoria B. C. (via Hawaii).
I'd call that good going, Raymond, especially for a long passage like that ✌️⛵
I confess I used to be a ketch lover, grew up sailing on my fathers ketch which was a sister ship to Joshua, Bernard Moitissers boat. Sailed great could always balance her well lots to play with, heaven! However I have now seen the light! If we are talking about boats over 40 foot (for smaller boats a sloop of some sort is fine) then a cutter makes much more sense. Here's why... On a true cutter the mast is set slightly father back than a sloop so smaller more manageable main (yes I know a ketch has two of them so they're smaller too, but who wants two mainsails? mainsails are a pain to reef) Instead a cutter has two foresails that are easy to reef. Sailing a cutter with a high cut yankee and a staysail means there is no big 120+% genoa to grind in, things are much more manageable shorthanded. Going to windward flying both foresails you have as much drive as the big gennys, but the real magic happens when you have to reef. Instead of winding in some Genoa on a sloop or faffing around with mains on a ketch you roll away your yankee. Then instead of a flappy partially rolled Genoa (low cut sails dont roll well) you have a fully out perfectly trimmed staysail, and the centre of effort is where it should be low and inboard. Loosen the sheets as you come off the wind and your yankee is the perfect reacher, the clew doesn't rise as you bear away and you dont have to adjust the car forward at just the time you need it back to stop the leach flapping. So now the wind really gets up and you want to hove to. Well in a cutter that can be done instantly. Roll up the yankee, back the staysail & with main and staysail reefed to suit conditions your done & you have the centre of effort of both sails close to the centre of balance of the boat which makes trim much more forgiving. I could go on but this is sounding like the rant of a madman now so I'm not even going to mention all that extra weight aloft and complexity of more standing and running rigging with a ketch! I think there's a good half dozen reasons a cutter wins over a ketch there Jamie, so here's the challenge... if you can come up with 6 reasons a ketch wins over a cutter you might win me back to my miss-led youth! I'll start you off, ketches have an inbuilt riding sail, that's all I can think of ;)
P.S. we've just learned we will be allowed into port tomorrow for the first time in over two months, so I might even be able to get some Wifi to watch the video... I'll be counting the plus points!
I think you should watch the video first! Esper is a ketch cutter 😉
And well done on being allowed into port. Our frustration is that we can't LEAVE port!
@@followtheboat To be entirely fair, Esper is not a 'ketch cutter' it is a cutter-rigged ketch. Its 'just' a ketch, not a cutter :) Peace!
Outstanding information on ketch rigged blue-water sailboats....thank you both!!
We purchased a 1973 Allied Princess 36 ketch with an aft cockpit. As she is an older boat we’ve spent a lot on refit but we like the way she sails and felt that as an older couple (we are in our early 60s) it’s rig held lots of advantages for us. We will be sailing the east coast of the US with outside hops, the Great Lakes, Bahamas and Gulf of Mexico. Your Esper is such a lovely boat!
Cheers, Catherine. Great to hear from an aft cockpit ketch owner too ✌️⛵
I once had a 30’ Seawind ketch. One thing I liked was the ability to stand up holding the rigging in the cockpit under sail. You can’t do this on a sloop.
I own a motor boat but have always loved sailing, that feeling of shutting off the engine and just going under sail is amazing. I'm currently in a quarantine in the BVI and have spent many hours today watching Laura Dekker's experience going around the world solo at age 15, I was wondering why she preferred a Jeanneau 38 ketch for this awesome trip and now you have answered my question, thank you for this informative video.
That's one awesome woman. Liz 👍
Explorer 45 staysail ketch with cut away full keel. We quite often are running jib and jigger which is extremely comfortable. Throwing the main up also great. Unfortunately the inner foresail was missing when we bought and we have not got around to getting a new one yet. We keep watching you 2 for the interesting ketch info. Great stuff. Currently getting the boat into a state to head off long term. Teak deck removal anyone?. Getting there.
Oooh, teak deck removal! You're gonna love our next few episodes... Hope you get round to getting a new inner foresail 👍
Sir Francis Chicchicester sailed around the world single handedly in a 40ft ketch called.Gpysi Moth 1967, i was ten.then, i never forgotten his achievement.
Me neither, I remember hearing about it as a kid. Liz 🤓
Well done. This landlubber (but sailing dreamer) is convinced by your well thought out arguments.
Cheers, Tim 👍
Just bought a Morgan Out Island 41 Ketch last spring with the intent of blue water cruising. I did a lot of research before deciding what kind of rig and hull I wanted and the Ketch rig really stood out as the best.
May she bring you many years of joy, Thorn. Fair winds to you.
I found this to be very informative and answered many of my questions. I have sailed on ketches, not in rough weather, but the advantages you mentioned are worthy of a blue water sailor. Any sailboat is comfortable in good weather but few are in bad weather. The ketch, therefore would be my choice.
Cheers, William. Comfort is paramount when the shit hits the fan.
You’re both delightful eloquent communicators. Great on camera. Thanks for this, from the rocky shores of Downeast Maine.
Hi guys, I've just bought a westerly Reknown.... Doing it up, but I now feel great about my per chase ketch rig and all, many thanks James.
Well done video on my favorite rig. You earned my subscription. Thank you.
Cheers, David. Welcome aboard 👍
I don't know how to sail or have a sail boat but i do love learning all about sailing, and this was very informative.
Thanks, Jerome. Good to know you enjoyed it.
You guys answered many of my questions I had for years concerning the ketch. So thanks!
Our pleasure 👍
The first big sailboat boat (over 30 feet ) was a gulf star 50 ketch rigged. I discovered that when the jib and mizzen are balance that gulf star sailed very nice.
Jib and jigger is so comfortable too, Ed.
Project Atticus is a cool little ketch too
Aww. Yawl need to stop!
they are scoundrels. by every stretch of the imagination. little if anything out of their mouths is truth, fake tears, whole 9 years. it's all about playing peoples emotions for free money with them.
they knew about the simple fix required on their bulkhead they day they first inspected their old boat. they negotiated all the problems with the new boat into the deal, there was no surprises.
there's way more to their soundrelous behavior too.
Hi Jamie and Liz, You could use the circular cut outs of the EVA blue foam to glue them back in to cover the bolt heads. If you still have them. André
Hey André. I actually say that in the original version but I edited that bit out for brevity! In the end it was fine and not sticking those in means I can get access to the bolts. 👍
Very informative. Difficult to get consensus when most responding have little to nil exp with various configurations. Personally, I like the shorter sticks, & all the benefits for solo.
Hardin Voyager 45 for the win. LOVE this vessel and stable, stable, stable. Such a joy to blue water
A head sail has two main jobs to do, powering the boat and creating lift for the bow. Does the typically smaller head sails on ketch's stop some of the lift and does using the stay sail compensate. In some of the footage you show in this video Esper seems heavy in the bow with it digging in often.
Esper has a pretty low profile anyway but some of that drag probably comes from too much gear on board! But yes, high cut yankee won't provide a much lift.
Preaching to the converted here. I bought a Dickerson 36 ketch a year and a half ago and have no regrets. My criteria in my search were (0) Fiberglass hull, (1) Center cockpit, (2) Protected rudder (skeg or full keel), (3) ketch rig, (4) hard dodger, and (5) two heads. Unlike what you say in your video, many of the smaller ketches (at least those available in the US) are aft cockpit. While I was searching, I saw lots of listings for nice small ketches that met most of my criteria in Europe, but few in the US. The two that I found examples of to go see were the H-R Rasmus and the Dickerson 36 I bought. Both originally came in ketch and sloop rigs and are from the early 1970's. The Dickerson 36 additionally came in both center and aft cockpit versions for a total of 4 configurations out there. My boat met all the criteria except (4), which you and Sailing Project Atticus have convinced me is possible to add.
As for the sailing, no blue water yet, but I've had her out in squalls (10-15 knots to over 40 knots in a minute) and small craft advisories. She takes it all well and I think she will do well in the open ocean. Sailing on the jib and mizzen is great, and when the winds come up, my standard practice is to drop the main. I also put the mizzen up first and take it down last. The main that came with the boat was end of life, so I wound up ordering a new one last year. The sailmaker put in one reef point standard, and would but in up to two more for a fee. If I had a sloop, with my plans to go offshore, I would have wanted the extra reef points. But I figure that with a ketch, where sloop sailors would put in a 2nd or 3rd reef, I would just drop the main and use the mizzen.
Good feedback. We have a furling main, how do you find the full main in terms of handling?
As I mentioned above, when I got the boat, the main was almost dead. The surveyor thought it might be original to my 1973 boat. However, I was able to determine that the sailmaker whose tag was on the sail only existed for a few years in the early to mid 1990's. The surveyors words were "In the first good blow, this sail will turn to ribbons." As a result, we initially treated the main as a light air sail, and those habits have carried over to the new heavy-duty main I got with intentions of sailing offshore. The above mentioned squall hit at the end of our first real sail: a 33 hour non-stop to get the boat to her new home just after I bought her. My son and I were exhausted, but, while knuckles were white, we managed to drop the main relatively uneventfully with my son at the mast and me at the helm.
All the halyards (3 main mast, 2 mizzen) are at their respective masts, and I plan to keep them that way. There are no "spares" - the boat came with 5 sails: a 130 roller furling Genoa, a "storm" jib that goes on a removable forestay, main, mizzen, and a mizzen staysail. I have yet to fly the storm jib or the mizzen staysail because there are issues with each and I've been busy on other boat projects.
We had her at hull speed (about 7 knots) on a broad reach with just the Genoa and mizzen in 25+ knots of wind, and it seemed to me to be a comfortable ride. She's a full keel boat, and pointing is an issue. The main that came with the boat had partial battens and was fairly blown out. For the new sail, I went with 2 full battens and 2 partial. I've seen some improvement, and I will probably go with all full battens if I ever need a new sail. I also think a smaller jib could help with the pointing.
One final point in this very long reply: I originally thought I wanted a roller furling main. I was also initially considering larger boats (which I consider yours to be an example). There was always a question of "Do I buy a smaller boat now, or save a few more years and get a bigger boat." I've done LOTS of costal and lake sailing, but not any blue water. After several year of looking and planning and thinking about what I wanted, I went on a Morse Alpha Expeditions training course with an offshore passage. It was amazing, but Ben and Teresa are a bit old school and don't believe in stuff like furling. There were 7 people on their Norseman 447, and we all got a good workout on passage. At that point, I was already thinking more about smaller boats, in terms of being able to handle it solo if need be. I saw the boat I bought right afterwards. If I were to get a bigger boat like yours, I might want furling sails (though system breakdowns would be a concern), but I find the sails (except the Genoa) in my 36' ketch manageable without furling, and that was the final point that pushed me towards a smaller boat.
thank you for all info my choice will be for the Amel 55 l am so happy to see your video and definitely that the boat I will by.thank you.Claude
Two cents worth. Ketches “in their time” have been excellent in part I think the attraction was to get a generous sail plan (and gear changes to suit) whilst all along allowing it to be sailed and handled by a couple. The earlier Dacron mainsails started to get really heavy with a luff length of greater than 12metres so two masts gave you the same sail are as you might get with an 18 metre mast an the corresponding 55 - 60 ft yachts - in more recent times sails can now be less than 50% the weight add to the fact that sail handling systems have improved out of sight making sailing a sloop ( single mast) quite achievable. Having said all of that a Swan 65 ketch is nothing short of pretty
As always, you two put out very useful information. Stay safe and best of luck from Texas.
Thanks, Richard. We hope you find it useful.
I can't really comment as a novice and not have sailed on a ketch, but I've been on sloops in decent wind and struggled to find a balance. When we go as an older couple, I like what ketch rigs have to offer, on paper, as well as center cockpit. Safety and comfort are top of my list.
Agreed, those two are top of our list too, especially when caught out in bad weather.
Curious if you were ever to change your boat, would you buy another Ketch? And do you guys have a dream boat that' you would love to live on if the stars were to align? Always good to see a video from you guys....keeping us entertained and informed in lock down. Hopefully sailing starts again for you soon.
Awesome its the first time ive heard anyone explain what a Ketch is and why they exist ie their advantages.
I picked up a Jeanneau Gin Fizz ketch because of this video. And I love it! Thank you!
We hope you have many happy adventures! Peace and fair winds! Liz 🙏⛵
@@followtheboat Thank you!😉
OMG! Great educational vid! Yes, sailed many, ketch is the best for blue water. Balance is the key. Blue water, monohull is the only way. Want to "camp" in the BVI's, buy a cat. Want to see the world?...mono ketch. You guys have nailed it in this presentation. I will "follow" the boat!
Thanks for backing us up and thank you for joining us, Daniel. 👍
Ketches and yawls were the prevailing rigs for years...a lot of dimension and flexibility for cruising ...
The Oysters and Amels are a delight.
I have a leisureful boom sloop . I amconverting to a slutter rig for ease of handling. Your points are entirely valid.Reminds me of the famous Maruffa a Bermuda Rhodes yawl.
A very informative lesson. For real sailors, a Ketch is ideal.Balance, and more balance with a balanced rig.
Say please create a cocktail " the jig and jigger"
And looks so classic.
SV Venceremos , a Sparkman Stephen's mono 54' ...
Ooooh ,S&S 54. I''m jealous! Actually we did invent a cocktail once. I'm sure it is already established but I've never seen it before (it involves mainly watermelon juice) and we called it the Espeer cocktail. Maybe we should rename it to the 'jig and jigger'.
@@followtheboat you have my legal endorsement
Let me know what's in it and I will include it in cook book we are working on...
I was invited to sail on the Maruffa at 18
But had to pass because of Vietnam
Love and enjoy your channel
.
.you got the spirit of the kon tiki
Happy mothers day, you are a credit to your mothers!
I have sailed on friends' ketches, and recently bought a Pearson 365 ketch for the reasons you mentioned. While it is not rigged as a cutter, like yours, it has a removable solent stay. As far as RUclips channels with ketches go, there is you, Delos, and Atticus that I can think of off the top of my head. Oh, and I should mention that I have seen a catamaran ketch.
Hi Jeff. Yes, someone else mentioned a catamaran ketch. I've only seen one and it never left the marina so I've no idea how it performs. I do know someone designing a two-masted cat with a mast on each hull. It should be interesting to see how that performs when he launches. I believe he's going to start building it in six months' time.
Jeff Griglack just bought a Pearson 424 ketch 5 weeks ago - still getting to know her but who doesn’t love a ketch rig.... really.
@@followtheboat Such a design '(cat with masts on each hull) dates back some 25 years ago.
The problem at the time was how to properly support the mast with wide enough stays given the narrow hulls on a cat.
I've had a few boats over my 80 yrs 95% single hander.
UK Waters till 31. Australian and N.Z Waters from then on.
A mix of Timber 27ft Nicholson. 27ft '65 Planked (Beautiful little girl.)
Concrete 32ft. 32ft Pugh Moonwind Centre cockpit. then 2 x Boden South Seas 42ft.
Cutter and Ketch. I usually didn't go out in less than 25 knots. liked heavy weather. Hence the Steel, Plus I bounced off a Container once Adelaide to Strahan (Tassie) in the '80's) and
Smaller boats. 85% Coastal (Commitments. Family ashore).
The 32 ft I found fine. 42 better for offshore for carrying capacity for longer trips.
Cutter with a ghoster off forestay. Loose footed rather than a kite.
The Pugh ofter running and reaching at 7 to 8 knots. The 42fters very little faster.
You can set ALL boats to self steer on sails. PROVIDING the rig is balanced and hull form well designed.
Mechanical. For over 40 yrs on all boats (had mix of solar, towing and shaft logs)) I had a Wheel Autopilot. Combined with a small electrical "Windvand" from a TILLER steer AutoP.
Mounted on Side rail out of sail draught. When off shore and clear of coatstal variances. You can usually travel on sails set. Watching for wind shifte For days usually. Wave/swell sets give a good mental chart of any shifts.
Coastal the wind vane Pilot did good job for me.
I preferred Cutter to Ketch. Lazy. Smaller boats. Easier. Less travel distances, not so much carrying capacity needed.
Plus. Single. Peaceful. No disagreements. You F-- up. Nobody but YOU to blame. Fix it.
I've travelled round most on Westerm world. Plus Asia. My choices. Done Atlantic in 'late '50,s
(27ft Nich when it was popular. Almost ran out of water. twice.) Fish for food Food)
Both ways are fine but I have medical reasons for being not too far from treatment.
My Coastal kept me within reach of facility's.
Do them both... BUT Coastal Stay under 5 ft draught and preferably steel in either.
They dent, rather than hole. And real easy to repair. IE fix patches. Weld.
Cats to easy to flip if you lose it in Curly tops and hollow backs. (been there 32fter and North Sea Trawlers in mid '50's in winter season) )
Just enjoy it. It's ALl ways great. I was brought up in a North East fishing port/fishing fleet. (Suttons. Hartlepool I remember the last STEAM Trawler. "Longscar")
So enjoyed it bouncy and interesting. Not flat, boring water. Just me.
Lost depth of field in vision. No more bouncy. bouncy.
This was a great video to watch from the salon of my 36' Ketch. I feel really vindicated for no real reason.
🤣🤣🤣 Good on you! And fair winds to you too
Was thinking about an amel super maramu 2000 because of the ketch rigging and from watching delos. But, even with amel, they now build sloops instead of ketches. So also looking at jeauneau sun odyssey 49, 54 ds, or beneteau oceanis. This is for someone who want to potentially have the option of sailing in open water at some point, be able to keep the boat over decades, but otherwise new to sailing.
Hey at 13:30 , when you mentioned shorter sails have less impact in terms of structural wear n tear, I know nothing about physics but shouldn't shorter sails have more tensions at the joint? Longer and heavier mast distributes tension more equally as a 1 unit instead of a unit with a weaker link attached? I am trying to picture this in my head that the ship will rock together in motion with a higher and heavier mast as a whole unit rather with shorter sails and mast, the ship won't rock with it and is more stationary therefore with high wind the forces will be greater where the smaller mast and ship meets and they will be more likely to break? I know nothing about this or anything related to sailing, just curious.
Edit: Now I am really curious about the physic part of this, if anyone can explain it ll be very appreciated
Super cool graphic transition at 6.41 .... I rewatched it many times 👍🏻
Yeah, I enjoyed putting that together, although I had to try hard not to over use the effect!
oh I really enjoyed the topic as well....
Thank you for explaining the pros and cons of the different rigs.
It's a start, William, but it's a BIG topic!
@@followtheboat ifnig wasn't a big topic, every boat would be a catch.
Great video! I'm looking and learning all the little differences in set ups for the future purchase 😎 this isa very helpful video. Fair seas be safe and Happy New Year
Glad it helps, William.
Thanks for posting and sharing. Glad to know what SV Delos is. I thought it was a ketch, but wasn’t sure.
All practical issues aside, the ketch looks awesome :) Thanks for the informative video.
Yes, that too 😎
Also a super tall mast of a sloop attracts lightning more, difficult to manage, and can't get underneath many bridges. And of course a ketch looks better.
So now I'm confused, to my understanding thus far the difference between cutter and sloop rig is the distance from the bow the main mast is stepped, sloop 30% loa. A sloop rig can have two head sails in two possible configurations one where both headsails are head mounted on the mast and one baby stay mounted, the cutter may or may not have the stay sail . I am still learning with a plan to be "sailing " or more accurately travelling by sail boat later this year so please correct me if I am mistaken. cheers
I will need to look into this to give a definitive answer!
@@followtheboat see my reply above. paraphrased here..
Cutter or Stay Sail rigged Sloop ???
The Royal Ocean Racing Club (RORC) states 'A cutter is defined as a boat that uses two headsails simultaneously to windward i.e. close-hauled.'
However, the question of whether a yacht is sloop rigged, cutter rigged, Solent rigged or slutter rigged has changed over the years.
Traditionally the sloop rig was a rig with a single mast located forward of 50% of the length of the sail-plan. In this traditional definition a sloop could have multiple jibs. Cutters had a rig with a single mast located 50% of the length of the sail-plan or further aft, multiple headsails and reefing bowsprit. Somewhere in the 1950's or 1960's there was a shift in these definitions such that a sloop only flew one headsail and a cutter had multiple headsails and mast position became irrelevant.
In parallel, cutters have been described as requiring to have a yankee jib cut high and a matched stay sail to be a true cutter. Yachts flying a genoa and a stay sail have been described as not having a true cutter rig, but merely a sloop fitted with a stay sail. This is especially true if the stay sail can be detached at the tack for quick tacking.
On the occasion I have used cutter to describe our yacht Miss Saigon, the old salts, especially those in the tall ship world where I have a presence have taken me to task, pointing out the error of my ways. However and equally, much of the terminology we use in yachting doesn't cut across the tall ship spectrum. Despite a few dozen years involvement with the tall ship barquentine Leeuwin II (I recently concluded my involvement as Chair of the Foundation), the tall ship enthusiasts take great delight in reminding me, "that you're not on Daddy's yacht now Terry"
@@captainsalty56 so many contradictory definitions have now read many articles and references on the sloop\cutter definition and the results are almost all different to some extent both in the units used to measure the mast position and whether the bowsprit length counts or not. I think in the end the common quick check method appears to be that the sloop mast is 1/3 loa and the cutter is further aft up to 1\2 loa they seem to have changed actual definitions depending on who the revered naval architect or rigger is at the time
@@gmoose777 Yes, the definitions continually change. My reference to RORC was the result of entering an offshore event where they refused to accept our yacht as a 'sloop'. Got my heckles up! The quote I used was the exact wording in their reply. Want a different answer - ask a different person. Want 10 different answers ask 10 different people!
Very nice guys, i think your right with the poll on youtube sailing channels, i know I personally voted Cat, for purely comfort but having sailed so little even that was an Assumption.
Thanks guys!
Always a pleasure, Trev, and thanks for your honesty! Always great to get your feedback.
Wonderful Video - Just wish I'd seen it before buying our vessel - I always liked ketches always drawing them as a young lad - not sure why. I should have gone with the gut feeling.
We have a 46ft beneteau Oceanis 2007 model - and after a few years getting to know her, fixing things, digging around her hull and finding construction flaws - I'm not sure that I
have the confidence to live the dream I bought her for. I know Bluewater sailing is about the crew, the experience and confidence rather than the vessel but ...
Thank you once again and stay safe.
I’m retired from USCG, with 7 years sea duty. 3 diff ships on the west coast, 1 on the east coast. @ 65 & Having seen what the ocean can do, add a dark moonless night & the breaking waves, the thought in small boats is spooky to me! Never was seasick! Pitch pole or roll over rattles me. That’s it. Although, My fantasy boat has always been the Morgan OI 41’!
I like the ketch rig now I'm curious to how much of a difference there is between the furling in mast main versus the more standard main sail and or the boom version of the main sail. I'm not an expert but I would think that the boom furling main would be the best way to go.
We are looking for our first boat and couple we are considering have Ketch rigs - this has been a very helpful video thanks and loving how versatile a ketch rig can be
And, under full sail, the cutter rigged ketch is the prettiest boat in the water!
thumbed
Aye 👍
If we're going on looks then there's nothing quite like a long sleek gaff rigged schooner with flying jib and top sails.
@@Strideo1 And...try sailing that one short-handed (solo?)! Not me!
Super informative. I don't think I would have considered a ketch before learning all this and the pros really sound beneficial.
Try to get a chance to crew on one, you'll love it! Liz
wow man i love how the sails roll up on each mast.. now im wandering what the florida usa cost would be to convert my 1977 morgan 41 ketch to this much easier handling sail and mast. i like the .. just crank n go.. me i got lazy jacks and old sails .and a rusting away main mast plate. im going to do a refit haul out next year. and i like your way of sailing.. and boat set up.. going to get new custom made solar arch and dingy davits id also like a welded up cage for a mini split up above my head blowing back to stern.. yea might be noise a lil out side but life support is ac in south florida..lol have big plans for this boat next year, for now she is resting safely and peacfully in her slip. waiting for her refit .... fair winds and following seas.....
thanks. as a hopefull, one day, single ocean sailor, that answered a few questions.
thanks again.
Here to help, Iain 👍
I've got a cutter ketch rigged Endurance 35 and whilst I agree wth all the points you made, you did miss one further point. They just look a lot prettier than sloops and catamarans whilst they have their place could never really be described as classically beautiful :)
Yes, this ^^^ It was only after uploading the video that I realised is forgotten to make this point, Darren 😁
Bravo
A catamaran can never touch your soul; just your pocketbook!!
Any Pirate worth his salt would go with a ketch over a sloop.
Woe! You could make an entire Channel about this one subject... There are so many variables that there cannot be a perfect boat for every person... I had a 43 Foot Ketch and found it too much work (I'm the Laziest SOB on the planet) to sail alone (the way I like to be). However, I fully agree that having the mizzen made steering the vessel a lot easier when alone... I could point the boat and go below to make a meal without much concern... I am thinking also, that having a Cutter greatly improved the speed in lighter winds. I see many boats that are Ketches that are not Cutters and/or have removed the Staysail and wonder, "What's the point?" But I have to say, my next boat will probably be another Ketch... Oh! You didn't mention the Keel... Having a Full Keel would make a huge difference for Blue Water Sailing... I'll shut up now... :-) Great video :-)
Great comment, thank you. Yes, there is so much to discuss here. We just wanted to provide some pointers and maybe convince some people that for blue water cruising a ketch is spot on. We can be lazy too though 😁
Great video by the way. And even better all the comments. Very informative.
Very much enjoyed your review. Like always you two are enjoyable to watch.
Thanks, Mark 👍
Great video! Nice editing. My husband and i are trying to educate ourselves on which boat to get next
Best rig for sure but you need a cutter rig as well to get everything out of it. great show like usable. catamaran are nice for space but would not trust if for blue water cruising. but second thing is underwater profile inducing rudder hanging. Fair winds and flowing seas.
Always love your posts and videos always learn something....keep it up.
Thanks for the feedback, Lyle 👍
Hmm, I'm a bit rusty but it has always been my impression that the primary and guiding distinction of a ketch sailing plan is that the mizen is forward of the rudder, which may or may not be fore or aft of the helm. I'm no expert but I do recall some aspects of the Yawl's (rear wheel drive) characteristic being more interesting than a yawl from an engineering standpoint - aside from performance.
I like ketch sailboats also. I would only use the the main mask, & if something should ever happen to the main mask, you have the mizzen mask to get back to land and a port to fix the damaged main mask.
in smaller boats yawl rig seems to be more popular than ketch. Probably it would be interesting to compare yawl, ketch and schooner for singlehanded sailing.
It looks like popularity of the rig is mostly connected with size of the boat. Then when we look at people who do serious singlehanded cruising surprisingly many used yawls.
Now i wonder whether choice between this 3 types of dual mast rigging is mostly size dependent or there might be other factors.
Hi Dominik. I was under the impression that they don't make yawls any more, and even ketches have fallen out of favour on boats under 50ft.
@@followtheboat it seems to be extinct among production boats but i still see lot of videos from microcruisers niche. This boats are many times self built, usually not designed to cross the oceans, until someone do it ... again. Not sure what is the record for the smallest boat, though 650 transat looks big compared to this vessels. If i recall correctly Joshua Slocum used sloop/cutter but the next solo circumnavigation was done on a yawl (Harry Pidgeon). Their boats were really huge compared to modern attempts.
Great video, you guys are always so reasonable! Although I have very little to no sailing experience I have been watching these sailing videos for over 5 years and think the ketch is the most practical for long-term sailing. It all comes down to purpose though and with the catamaran vs mono hull IMO the decision comes down comfort to live in vs comfort to sail in. If did go with a multi-hull much prefer to do a tri than cat. I will definitely agree that the results would differ with boat owners. I think a lot of people don't factor in the overall cost of ownership and hands down a cat will be the most expensive. So hope all those cat voters have deep pockets!
Some good points there. In terms of rigging the cat is going to be a lot cheaper but two engines will set that back for starters. There are many factors when thinking of buying a boat and its off-shore performance is only one aspect. Thanks for your thoughts 👍
What a nice introdukcion👍👍👍👍👍
Helpful information. I assume that the answer is "yes," but can you confirm that the pros cons listed in your video apply also to yawls? Seems like the main difference is that yawls tend to be aft cockpit boats. Thanks in advance for your response, love the videos.
TBH I couldn't comment as we've not sailed yawls but I'm guessing 'yes', Mark.
Curious how often you go with reefed main and staysail vs jib and jigger? In what conditions/circumstances would reefed main be preferable?
Hi Mark. Normally after being in light winds we might start to reef the main down first, so it's still up with all other sails up. As the winds build we'll drop the main altogether (or, in our case, furl it away) and only then would we run jib and jigger. That said if we know the weather is going to be unpredictable when we start out we won't put the main out in the first place.
Your video on the advantages of a ketch was great. Would it be possible, for you to do another rather technical video about the use of your mizzen gennaker and other downwind sail configurations? Also, I didn’t catch the build of your ketch. Everyone knows the Amels. What other boat brands have built quality ketches?
I give u a big 👍 for both of u.. coz in ur age u still sailing around n share ur experience.. have a good n safe journey for both of u.. love from Indonesia...
We LOVE Indonesia! Hope to sail there again one day. ❤️ Liz
I like the look when the world “compromise” is used :)
I think about solo sailing and I am very keen with Ketch
I like your video 👍🏻
After sailing a few Catamarans, I just can't. Back to looking at Ketch rigged. Hard to find a good one though. Great video as always. Stay safe.
Cheers, Hitch. Yep, a good one is few and far between these days.
Thank you so much for answering my questions. Your video was very much appreciated.
Thanks for letting us know, glad you found it useful. Liz
Great discussion because I'm not a sailor, and just a dreamer with much to learn. What are some enduring/popular Ketches under 40 feet for solo cruising?
Use to race on a cruising boat, a ketch rigged 65' swan, Always raced with Mizzen up, except once when Mission backstay Tensioning did not work, we did better, much better, many weeks, but that was with upwind legs, maybe best compromise is Mizzen down for upwind. True better balancing, and insurance for night sailing, but then for cruising I would lament the loss of Solar panel real estate, and with aft cockpit as swan has, no bimini.
Wow, a 65ft Swan. Sounds like a beautiful boat 👌
Great opinion on the Ketch rig! Especially if its a larger boat.
Excellent video explaining!!! Im looking to ketch a boat soon!