Yes he did, but it was the Catholic Church he was talking about. Really you should quote Henry VIII on that one: 'It is my church and I'll do what I want to'.
@patrickparsons2378 Neither the Roman Catholic Church nor the Church of England were what Jesus referred to. He referred to His Church, which would be eternal and prevail. If you, too, mean the Church Jesus was going to build, then that's the catholic Church.
@@seasmacfarlane6418 No, It was the rcc. St. Peter. You're really missing the nuances of lived christian life if you don't know this fact; and also St. Peter's role in the christian experience.
I was baptised in a ‘church’ I married in a ‘church’ and one day my funeral service will be in a ‘church’. The world has gone mad, this is utter nonsense and a waste of headspace to debate this‼️ I’m off now to cycle and I will pass three churches on my journey …. ⛪️⛪️⛪️👍👍👍
Luciferians/Satanist could have a worshipping community. Anyone can have a worshipping community and worship false gods. But when you call it a church, you are specifically saying that you are worshipping The true and living God, the Holy One of Israel, the Trinity, our Eternal Father, Son eternal and Devine Spirit
So the word "church" is now such a turn off in this new woke world we live in that it must be changed? The Worshiping Community of England. Who or what are you worshiping?
The Apostle Paul did not go around Athens asking people what they wanted in a Church and then proceed to put together great programs with contemporary music and uplifting messages. We simply do not see him trying to build a Church by inviting unbelievers to Church. The Apostle Paul went to the unbelievers. He did not wait for them to come to him.
This is true. Both Paul and Jesus had peripatetic ministries. OTOH, as you see from these comments people crave sacred spaces. Even pagans set aside spaces that they consider sacred. Some academics did studies that found people fear "mental contamination". It's like when St. Teresa and the bad apple metaphor . In reality fear of mental contamination arises from a deep seeded feelings of guilt, trauma-related intrusive thoughts, images, or memories; those who fear tend to engage in compulsive behaviors like ritualism. It's also the fear of contamination by outsiders: people with whom one disagrees. The acusations of the defilement of sacred spaces hinges on this idea of contamination by the other.
the survivor of a shipwreck, floundering in the waters after his ship ha gone down, does NOT WANT a lifeboat that is indistinguishable from the waters ( ie the world) in which he is drowning
The C of E began in the narcissistic hubris of one man, Henry VIII, and it looks like the whole delusional creation is going to finally end due to the narcissistic hubris of one man, Justin Welby. Oh dear, how sad, never mind.
I have been invited to visit one of these new Anglican initiatives in the middle of a Cotswold market town. It is a hub and offers workspaces for small businesses, among other things. When I was told about the vast sums of money that had been spent on the project and the fancy features on show I decided this was something I did not wish to see. What is the message - Capitalism is the route for all kinds of salvation? Not for me, no
I watched something on RUclips about the nostra dame cathedral before and after it burnt down instead of bringing it back to its former glory thay wanted to make it a multi faith place with moden technology put in it I have no idea if thay did it or not but thay where talking about changing what it looked like inside to what it looked like on the out side . Just because a building says one thing don't mean it's doing what it says on the inside of it any more
The Church is not just a physical building, it is the body of Christ and the bride of Christ. In exploring the deeper essence of the term 'church' as depicted in the Bible, it is vital we take into account its original context. Following its first appearance in Matthew 16:18, 'church' sets the underlying tone as not merely an edifice of worship, but rather the collective of faithful believers. The term derives from the Greek “ekklesia”, signifying a chosen assembly or congregation. In this collective sense, the church is a gathering of those who've chosen to believe in, and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Each believer, therefore, is part of the living, breathing entity known as the church. Fully comprehending this truth can radically transform our perception of what it truly means to be the 'church'- not an inanimate structure, but a dynamic, spiritual body comprising of individual believers.
@@philiphumphrey1548 I grew up in a church called St. Barnabas. Concurrently there was a daily soap opera called "dark shadows" where the main character was a vampire named Barnabas. Very traumatizing.
I left the Episcopal Church, not officially breaking though, about 8 years ago. I have not looked back, but I was invited to a memorial service for a deceased friend. The changes were shocking to me. The people were as nice as ever, but an evil has entered the church, it was unmistakable... I would like to return to the 1662 Book of Common Prayer. I have a reprint copy, and it is world's away and much, much better than the most recent editions I have seen.
Yes, and much as I dislike Cranmer as a historical person and his role in imposing the English reformation, the words of the BCP are wonderful. They have also enriched our language "Peace in our time", "Devices and Desires" etc.
@@philiphumphrey1548 Thank you for that insightful reply, Philip. I need to learn more about Cranmer, and I wasn't aware of those marvelous enrichments. Thanks again, dear Christian brother.
Changing its name will not stop true christians from leaving the church, which no longer adheres to true bible teaching. It may attract people who want community activities and where God is just an add on.
Churches and denominations are man made, only the Gospel will give you the real connection to Jesus. If the Church no longer wishes to serve the Bible then Christians will leave. Time will tell, I have my predictions to what will happen, but all I hope is more people like myself see sense and come to Christ, the Church is how you connect to the community, but the relationship with Jesus Christ is what's important and comes second to no other worldly thing.
@@simonwilliams1559 The RCC is like the tree and the 42000 denominations are like the rhizome-- communities of believers with commitments to eachother. The tree is beautiful and the rest is...well...
This is actually a very old issue. "Church" is the traditional translation of the Hebrew "qahal" and the Greek "ekklesia," which in the Greek Bible referred to the community or assembly of God's holy people, summoned by the Word of God for worship. In secular usage, it could refer to other kinds of civic assemblies. Tyndale thought the word "church" had acquired a priestly-sacred sense sound, so he translated Ekklesia as "congregation", to emphasize the priesthood of all believers. English-speaking Protestants leaned in that direction. Catholics like Thomas More condemned Tyndale's use of "congregation" as biased against traditional language and as implying sharp discontinuity with Christian tradition. In the end, King James agreed with More on this point. In the guidelines given to the translators of the KJV, this instruction was given: "“The old Ecclesiastical Words to be kept, viz. the Word Church not to be translated Congregation &c.” Many Puritans disagreed but eventually accepted the King James Bible anyway. It's clear that the trend in our time is away from using words that sound too "sacred" or clerical-priestly or institutional is an effort to reach out to a secularized society that dismisses anything that distinguishes the sacred from the secular. Even the word "religion" has become almost pejorative. Evangelists don't want to seem churchy or clerical or to seem to cling to outdated forms. I would see this as a kind of secular-Puritan trend that disfavors traditional approaches and forms. The larger question is whether the category of the distinctly sacred is a valid one for Christians. The Catholic-minded side of the C of E would say yes. There are many "communities," but only the visible structured community of the baptized can be a "church." The evangelical side would tend to say No, or at least to limit the idea of "sacredness" to the holiness of the Word of God and the response of faith, which can happen anywhere. The Catholic would affirm the importance of the word "Church" as referring to specifically sacred sacramental community; the Protestant would tend in the opposite direction, saying that the term used for a local Christian worshiping community is just a matter of what is useful in mission and evangelism.
What a really thoughtful, and helpful reply. Thank you. Since there has been, and will always be, disagreements over words and concepts, can we not just take a deep breath and try to believe in the good intentions on both sides? That we all hope to draw people into the life of God?
The Church IN England is largely NOT the Church OF England. If they're happy to drop the word "Church" they're happy to drop Jesus. Hence, no salvation. Hence why the Church in England is not the Church of England. We have higher standards.
Well I do have a problem with it, one of the reason's Christianity is so mocked, low on attendances and ridiculed is there are so many denominations these day's, just picking and choosing what they want to follow from scripture, (rather then it all, the way it is) that it barely seems to stand for anything anymore! James 4:4 Who so ever makes themselves a friend of the world, becomes an enemy of God's!
No, it's stating a fact: that no single church plant had the word church in it in 900 churches they planted in the 11 dioceses . This is 25% of all dioceses so we have to assume there are 4x this number. The CofE said this was DELIBERATE to remove the word church They are also investing 82 million which is about 500 new church plants. None of these 3500 ish churches will have the name church in them this is in a nation with about 16,000 church of england churches that are declining and closing So that means 20% of churches in ten years will not have the name church in them.. are you getting this yet? It's paving the way for anyone to use the worshipping community building rainbow lit towers with any marriage in it any cult to use it any gender anything goes
That’s brilliant Rev Dan that you opened your church for the Queen’s passing. Brilliant move to give people a place to mourn and face life without the Queen being in the backgrounds of all of our lives. I think there is something special in having a beautiful, quiet church for people to come to. There was one open close to Manchester City centre years ago. It was almost always open so I could go in any time, any day. The vicar was always there to chat with anyone. This is what people need. Our country is in need and people want someone they can trust to go to in their hour of need. What people miss about church is it is about Jesus, not us. Church is not for our entertainment. It is to glorify Christ. We sing songs and pray because God gets something out of our prayer and song offerings. I want to go to church to honour God, rotate my week around giving that particular time to God and orientate my life around worship. I fail, but going to church is a step forward. I currently go to a Catholic Church that has a lot of defectors from the c of e following the c of e embracing the governments propaganda during covid. I like that in this church, we are encouraged to like each other and support the new priests, support the work the church is doing but we are not encouraged to “be vulnerable” with each other. Being vulnerable is what evangelical churches do that is totally a great way for paedophiles, rapists and domestic abusers to locate pre-prepared victims. I absolutely hate it. So no one in this church knows anything about me beyond my terrible singing voice and amazing clothes I get in sales. No one knows anything about me. No one is making demands on me to extend my work hours to Sundays too. No one is being bitchy to me and just acting weird as many Protestant church folk do. And no one is in my face about my gayness. No female leaders or congregation members are trying to get into relationships with me. No lunatics are trying to cast demons out or recommend me a new book on gay. No one is in my face about my gayness. It is a relief. I can go to church to worship Jesus. The Mary bits don’t bother me. I just pray to Jesus. And only one priest does the Mary bits anyway and he is also the only one to mention the Pope. The other priests are Christ focussed and trained in Catholicism because it was the main church in their country of origin. Everything to do with the Pope has been removed from the church. There are 300 people per service which is 3 times on a Sunday and 100 for midweek mass every day of the week too. This church just preaches Jesus. Jesus is what people want. No gimmicks, no trendy trends. No bending the rules. Just Jesus. catherinehume.wordpress.com/2024/07/14/lgbt-church-abuse-and-healing/
I went to a pioneering training day where walking in the mountains and stopping occasionally for a pray and meditation on a scripture has been redefined as a fresh expression of church. There was also a knit and natter group and a bread making group which were similarly defined. There are huge questions about the longevity, mission and ecclesiology (as in what is a church) about these groups. They tend to have very blurry edges. Of done by a member of a the clergy they can do communion, but there are more questions than answers in this.
thank you for this video, i was finding this issue hard to wrap my head around amidst ucas applications and my own personal study of scriptures and such!
The church is not a building its Gods people. Gods a movement and not a monument. And what being preached theses days is not always whats in the bible its like a pick and mix gospel lord revive your true church lord we are to go out and preach Gods gospel yet in some ways we are happy just to turn up sit down then head home but forget its not about you or me but jesus .keep up the good work
That is an excellent video with a profound prophecy. I have been led to believe that God is going to do something awesome in the year 2025. It has been so much on my heart that I have wondered if Christ will return. The big question we should all ask ourselves, is, if Jesus is coming back next year, will be ready for him?
This from an established church website in Cambridge. "I look forward to welcoming you to St xxxx - a busy community centre and worshipping community at the heart of Cambridge. We are a community that travels with questions: there are no easy answers in life and we live in complex and challenging times. Faith is not an easy win either, but it has the potential, if engaged with seriously, to be liberating. Faith in God offers a pathway that provides signposts, wells and springs, not fixed answers and certainty, but waymarkers and sustenance for the journey. Most of all, being part of a faith community, means just that, belonging to a community. Having a place where you can be yourself, a place to call 'home' is a true blessing. We pray that you'll find a home here." No surprise, it is a very liberal Church opps community.
Taking a leaf out of our new Prime Minister's book I would say that the argument has arisen from the failure of previous administrations! For many years we just neglected evangelism, evangelicals included.
Jesus said: “And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build MY CHURCH, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.” Matthew 16: 18 niv
Having listened on to the end here, I do have one observation for consideration. Much of this comes out of both the need and desire to free up lay people to lead and run a few things. Most of us cannot really dash off to theological college for three years and do the many years of training required before getting stuck in at church and leading or setting up a few things. I agree that "this is what we do anyway" but the sad fact is that vicars are often over stretched and limited on time in a system where "Church" has to have a "priest" presiding to really be seen as such. It's a neat work around to just all things by other terms so as to avoid the theological debate as to how that all can work without "ordained" personnel. Thus the creation of "pioneer ministers" who have a little bit of part time training, amd get a sort of strange bishops licence to carry on doing what they perhaps ordinarily would have done anyway in a healthy growing church. Where there is not a healthy growing church you can see the imperative to let these people just get on with it.
"New Worshipping Community" was what our diocese & church used for a new service that was started 4 years, as it is a more contemporary service compared to the morning traditional liturgy, but we, as 2 different worship styles and services are one church. I think the term worshipping community can be helpful if they're using a general term to describe both new churches but also new congregations in existing churches.
I do not know what the Arch Bishop of Canterbury did before being a clergy man but it obviously wasn’t engineering. Otherwise he would know what any sandcastle building infant knows. One week point and it all collapses. Removing the word Church and all it represents especially to other religions as steadfast in it’s teachings and beliefs, has the first crack appearing which will be interpreted as surrender to another main religion taking over, supporting new restrictions etc., etc., Heart breaking.
@@davidsprouse151 John 3:16 - the good news of salvation by faith in Jesus. But salvation involves repentance from sin, and when the CofE says that gays don't need to repent of their sin, they are contradicting the Bible and abandoning the essentials of the faith.
Yet again the C of E ties itself into more knots by sticking plasters on top of other plasters, using ever more justifiable language which brings with it issues both foreseen and unforeseen, which will then require more sticking plasters. There is a limit to the use of theological duct tape. sooner or later the underlying structure will collapse.
The church buildings are one of the Anglican churches biggest assets. But I have spent too many hours on a PCC discussing repairs, finding money and getting grants for the building. It absorbs so much energy and money that it is also a great liability. I have since converted to Catholicism, and we have much less of a problem maintaining our buildings. Unfortunately as Rev Dan alludes to, nobody knows where our churches are. The church where I currently worship is a former Methodist chapel. It doesn't look much like a church. Most people in the town are probably unaware there is a Catholic church. Everyone knows where the Anglican parish church is, you can't miss it.
Concerning trend: Culturally acceptable words: community, worship (preferably of all things else it could be seen as discrimination) Words being phased out?: Church, maybe God at some point?
"ecclesia" from the Greek means assembly, gathering, congregation, etc. It went directly into Latin and chiesa (Italian), iglesia (Spanish), eglise (French) all derive from it and continue to be the word for "church" in Italian, Spanish, and French. Germanic languages are the outlier using kirche, kirk, church, etc. and is thought to come from a Gothic word that came from Greek meaning referring to "lord." Naming new churches with "gathering" or "assembly" or "congregation" are actually better translations/transliterations of ecclesia for modern English and reflect the words used in Romance language countries.
Jesus started a church not a community or a ramblers group. We also had some bishop say there is a problem with the Lords Prayer you just could not make it up.
I wonder if the word _church_ has become debased coinage. Not only does it describe an institution often unfaithful to its defining documents, that can carry on even after God has left it, and full of cobwebby deadness and traditions added over the centuries, but is too often synonymous with large scale abuse and it being covered up over the last few decades, regardless of denomination. It is understandable that authentic NT believers might consider distancing themselves from such a term despite its long use in the language and bible.
Dan: Have you noticed how rarely Justin Welby and his fellow-bishops use the person of Jesus of Nazareth (Is he the gospel; or is it his message?) as their exemplar for human behaviour toward God and man. Instead, they opt for the 'progressive', 'woke', language of Identity Politics; with its Marxist division of humankind into 'victim' and 'oppressor'. Why do they do this; when they can preach Jesus of Nazareth as exemplar? I supect that the Church of England is not currently led by courageous people: at the very time when it needs to be led by a charismatic figure, once more: even if he/she is only 'primus inter pares'. Would Jesus of Nazareth have chosen a single one of the current bench of bishops to be disciples?
How about the Church of England embrace holy tradition and a return to the faith of the undivided church of the first Millennium rather than modernity. It is after all the principal of the English reformation.
Several years ago i performed in L'Homme Arme: A Mass for Peace by Composer Karl Jenkins ( I really was once a musician), it was nice music with some very beautiful moments BUT it had no credo. This was one of the several things that really offended me about this work I bitterly noted at the time that this was because it expressed NO BELIEF my point? the Anglican hierarchy might want to call themselves a worshiping communing but they will NEVER call themselves a BELIEVING community so, believing nothing they have nothing to worship except themselves. they STILL have nothing to offer, as befits a burbling irrelevance
In the first century 'church' met in peoples homes, they did not need large impersonal buildings, clerics in fancy dress or any of the rest of the nonsense. The word worship does not mean what the church has come to make it. The first use of the word is found in Genesis 22:5 Abraham has been told by God to sacrifice his only and beloved son Isaac, they travel 3 days to the foot of a mountain in Moriah, he says Genesis 22:5 'And Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey; the lad and I will go yonder and worship, and we will come back to you.” Worship is sacrifice something important to you in order to glorify God, worship is when we demonstrate to God that He is No 1 in our lives.
Hallelujah!!! I’m blessed and favored with $60,000 every week! Now I can afford anything and support the work of God and the church. For Your glory, LORD! HALLELUJAH!
Yeah, it’s crazy, ain’t it? I started small, just testing the waters with a few bucks, and now it’s grown into somethin’ real serious. God’s been good to me, no doubt!
Yessir! I have a great Trader and advisor, Melissa Jonas Richard. She showed me the ropes, broke it down real simple like, She made the whole process straightforward and manageable. and helped me make the right moves. Started to see results almost right away.
This is a good move - I did wonder if it might be an initial step from separating what is no longer a biblical church from what remains as the English orthodox church. If it's Welby's idea, it's the best he's had.
Before you change the name " church " think about these things 1.what was Jesus's intetion to call it a " church " 2. The context of Jesus's teachings 3. If Jesus comes back now, how did he feel about those who contradict with his teachings?
I looked up the meaning of church in the Hebrew. It simply means assembly. I doubt if our SAVIOUR would have even used that word. He would more than likely used Shepherd and Sheep as he did to Peter when he told him to feed his lambs, shepherd his sheep, feed his sheep. Which the church actually neglects
Personally I think it’s a great idea since CofE doesn’t worship Christ or teach his word. I don’t think they should confuse people into thinking it is a church.
Evangelical churches and baptists are very very different from Anglicans. I went to a non denominational Evangelical church when I left the Scottish Episcopal Church, temporarily for about 3 years until I found a permanent church home. Evangelical church is very superficial in comparison to Anglican/episcopal beliefs.
I've heard they are denying this, I believe it's because of the backlash. Maybe we should have this type of cry with same sex blessings and before that women vicars and bishop's
On this rock I will build my......er......er..... Sorry, but either it's a church or not. Why drop the name? I also read more and more about how church of England is no longer following doctrine and argues against the scriptures. Sure you can meet and preach the gospel and share in communion but if church of England no longer stands by the bible and falls away from orthodoxy....it's all kind of pointless 🧐 I was part of the Scottish Episcopal church. I was baptised and confirmed in the episcopal church. Then it gave up on being orthodox and wanted to cater to the woke and the liberals. I left and now I am a happy Lutheran 🙂
Praise the Lord, He is Faithful and always opens the eyes and ears of those who are truly seeking Him and His ways with all of their heart, soul, body and mind. "Follow Me"
They just need the word, prayer and repentance the Lord will add to there number those that are being saved, but there not believing there going to keep failing , it would be better when they have gone . Then the church of God wouldn't be hindered, by there ideology, apostasy, it's simple . Thanks for high lighting this stuff .
As it is written, "You will know them (your true brothers and sisters in Christ) by their fruits". And we are seeing a lot of rotten fruit coming from them and many wolves in sheep's clothing leading His beautiful flocks astray.
I am writing this before I have listened to everything said here, either by Rev Dan or other contributors. My own feeling is that the matter of apparently dropping the use of the word "church" has been criticised unfairly. In current usage, "church" is generally used for the building. If one wants to speak about the people and what goes on then speaking of worshipping community is much better.
Thanks Dan. Let's not also forget that the world church in Anglican circles, comes with baggage. As a 'church' there is a load of rules and expectations that go with it, making the creation of new churches wanting to try a different mode of operating hard to enable. This is not to mention the save the parish movement who are often against new gospel centred initiatives, which if called church, would provide reason for complaint. Like you, I don't think the use of the world matters terribly. Of all the things we could argue over, this is super trivial.
I'm not Christian, I'm Jewish, a rabbi in fact. However I'd say the message of the Bible is pretty radical and would doubtless be called "Woke" by many. When asked to sum it up Hillel a rabbi who died in 10CE (AD) said quoting a verse from Leviticus 19:18 "Love your neighbour as yourself". We are also commanded to take care of the refugee and to care for the planet. The Bible is very what you would term "Woke".
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Jesus said "I will build my church " who are we to argue?
Yes he did, but it was the Catholic Church he was talking about. Really you should quote Henry VIII on that one: 'It is my church and I'll do what I want to'.
Well actually "Ecclesia" is the original translation
@patrickparsons2378 Neither the Roman Catholic Church nor the Church of England were what Jesus referred to. He referred to His Church, which would be eternal and prevail. If you, too, mean the Church Jesus was going to build, then that's the catholic Church.
@@seasmacfarlane6418 No, It was the rcc. St. Peter. You're really missing the nuances of lived christian life if you don't know this fact; and also St. Peter's role in the christian experience.
Well, he will build his church, but not every institution which has a sign outside saying 'Church' is a true church! God will build his true church.
If the Church of England wants to be relevant, it should try preaching the Gospel.
Amen !
Amen
amen to that!
Agree people are abandoning the Church due to this. But Welby and co cannot see it or understand it. Father Calvin Robinson love him or not is right
It’s because they’re trying to band all religions under one roof called coexist, I think that’s why .
Diluting the idea of Church only happens when the actual church has traded power in the Holy Spirit for cultural acceptance 🙄🙏🏻✝️
May God Bless you and your family Rev Dan and anyone reading this 🙏
I was baptised in a ‘church’ I married in a ‘church’ and one day my funeral service will be in a ‘church’.
The world has gone mad, this is utter nonsense and a waste of headspace to debate this‼️
I’m off now to cycle and I will pass three churches on my journey ….
⛪️⛪️⛪️👍👍👍
Luciferians/Satanist could have a worshipping community. Anyone can have a worshipping community and worship false gods. But when you call it a church, you are specifically saying that you are worshipping The true and living God, the Holy One of Israel, the Trinity, our Eternal Father, Son eternal and Devine Spirit
So the word "church" is now such a turn off in this new woke world we live in that it must be changed? The Worshiping Community of England. Who or what are you worshiping?
...soon it might become ONLY another "coffee" place/community where coffee and cake are the remenant. Truly sad!!
That has already happened in many places.
1/3 of evangelicals are obese (gluttons) why don't those churches have gyms?
The Apostle Paul did not go around Athens asking people what they wanted in a Church and then proceed to put together great programs with contemporary music and uplifting messages. We simply do not see him trying to build a Church by inviting unbelievers to Church. The Apostle Paul went to the unbelievers. He did not wait for them to come to him.
This is true. Both Paul and Jesus had peripatetic ministries.
OTOH, as you see from these comments people crave sacred spaces. Even pagans set aside spaces that they consider sacred.
Some academics did studies that found people fear "mental contamination". It's like when St. Teresa and the bad apple metaphor . In reality fear of mental contamination arises from a deep seeded feelings of guilt, trauma-related intrusive thoughts, images, or memories; those who fear tend to engage in compulsive behaviors like ritualism. It's also the fear of contamination by outsiders: people with whom one disagrees.
The acusations of the defilement of sacred spaces hinges on this idea of contamination by the other.
the survivor of a shipwreck, floundering in the waters after his ship ha gone down, does NOT WANT a lifeboat that is indistinguishable from the waters ( ie the world) in which he is drowning
Brilliant!
The C of E began in the narcissistic hubris of one man, Henry VIII, and it looks like the whole delusional creation is going to finally end due to the narcissistic hubris of one man, Justin Welby. Oh dear, how sad, never mind.
Not just Welby, his predecessors are also to blame. I think the final decline started with George Carey and the vote to ordain women priests.
I have been invited to visit one of these new Anglican initiatives in the middle of a Cotswold market town. It is a hub and offers workspaces for small businesses, among other things. When I was told about the vast sums of money that had been spent on the project and the fancy features on show I decided this was something I did not wish to see. What is the message - Capitalism is the route for all kinds of salvation? Not for me, no
I watched something on RUclips about the nostra dame cathedral before and after it burnt down instead of bringing it back to its former glory thay wanted to make it a multi faith place with moden technology put in it I have no idea if thay did it or not but thay where talking about changing what it looked like inside to what it looked like on the out side . Just because a building says one thing don't mean it's doing what it says on the inside of it any more
The Church is not just a physical building, it is the body of Christ and the bride of Christ. In exploring the deeper essence of the term 'church' as depicted in the Bible, it is vital we take into account its original context. Following its first appearance in Matthew 16:18, 'church' sets the underlying tone as not merely an edifice of worship, but rather the collective of faithful believers. The term derives from the Greek “ekklesia”, signifying a chosen assembly or congregation. In this collective sense, the church is a gathering of those who've chosen to believe in, and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Each believer, therefore, is part of the living, breathing entity known as the church. Fully comprehending this truth can radically transform our perception of what it truly means to be the 'church'- not an inanimate structure, but a dynamic, spiritual body comprising of individual believers.
Amen the Church is not and never will be a building.
It's the body of the Head Christ Jesus and also the bride.
Let’s stick with tradition and name churches after saints.
You can also have a church named after the Holy Trinity, or The Sacred Heart, or The Most Holy Name of Jesus.
@@philiphumphrey1548 I grew up in a church called St. Barnabas. Concurrently there was a daily soap opera called "dark shadows" where the main character was a vampire named Barnabas.
Very traumatizing.
We need a new A of C. The word "CHURCH" (from the greek for circle) We keep CHURCH
Remember "Care in the community?" That was a disaster, leaving thousands of sick vulnerable people, just dumped to fend for themselves.
Listening to Dan is like taking a leap off of the cliffs of reason, only to discover that the water below is a warm pool of laughter
I left the Episcopal Church, not officially breaking though, about 8 years ago. I have not looked back, but I was invited to a memorial service for a deceased friend. The changes were shocking to me. The people were as nice as ever, but an evil has entered the church, it was unmistakable... I would like to return to the 1662 Book of Common Prayer. I have a reprint copy, and it is world's away and much, much better than the most recent editions I have seen.
Yes, and much as I dislike Cranmer as a historical person and his role in imposing the English reformation, the words of the BCP are wonderful. They have also enriched our language "Peace in our time", "Devices and Desires" etc.
@@philiphumphrey1548 Thank you for that insightful reply, Philip. I need to learn more about Cranmer, and I wasn't aware of those marvelous enrichments. Thanks again, dear Christian brother.
@@philiphumphrey1548 Reading the 1662 BCP helped give me peace when I was a juror on a murder trial.
Changing its name will not stop true christians from leaving the church, which no longer adheres to true bible teaching. It may attract people who want community activities and where God is just an add on.
The C of E is playing with semantics while its edifice crumbles around it. The C of E needs its own resurrection.
Watch the Yes Prime Minister clip 'Sir Humphrey explains about the Church of England'. If anything is prophetic, its got to be that.
Churches and denominations are man made, only the Gospel will give you the real connection to Jesus. If the Church no longer wishes to serve the Bible then Christians will leave. Time will tell, I have my predictions to what will happen, but all I hope is more people like myself see sense and come to Christ, the Church is how you connect to the community, but the relationship with Jesus Christ is what's important and comes second to no other worldly thing.
Amen and Amen
Did Jesus not say "Upon this Rock I will build my CHURCH?
A step towards a multi faith community church perhaps? Hope not. Or a cunning initiative to obtain more grants.
@@simonwilliams1559 The RCC is like the tree and the 42000 denominations are like the rhizome-- communities of believers with commitments to eachother. The tree is beautiful and the rest is...well...
This is actually a very old issue. "Church" is the traditional translation of the Hebrew "qahal" and the Greek "ekklesia," which in the Greek Bible referred to the community or assembly of God's holy people, summoned by the Word of God for worship. In secular usage, it could refer to other kinds of civic assemblies. Tyndale thought the word "church" had acquired a priestly-sacred sense sound, so he translated Ekklesia as "congregation", to emphasize the priesthood of all believers. English-speaking Protestants leaned in that direction. Catholics like Thomas More condemned Tyndale's use of "congregation" as biased against traditional language and as implying sharp discontinuity with Christian tradition.
In the end, King James agreed with More on this point. In the guidelines given to the translators of the KJV, this instruction was given: "“The old Ecclesiastical Words to be kept, viz. the Word Church not to be translated Congregation &c.” Many Puritans disagreed but eventually accepted the King James Bible anyway.
It's clear that the trend in our time is away from using words that sound too "sacred" or clerical-priestly or institutional is an effort to reach out to a secularized society that dismisses anything that distinguishes the sacred from the secular. Even the word "religion" has become almost pejorative. Evangelists don't want to seem churchy or clerical or to seem to cling to outdated forms. I would see this as a kind of secular-Puritan trend that disfavors traditional approaches and forms.
The larger question is whether the category of the distinctly sacred is a valid one for Christians. The Catholic-minded side of the C of E would say yes. There are many "communities," but only the visible structured community of the baptized can be a "church." The evangelical side would tend to say No, or at least to limit the idea of "sacredness" to the holiness of the Word of God and the response of faith, which can happen anywhere. The Catholic would affirm the importance of the word "Church" as referring to specifically sacred sacramental community; the Protestant would tend in the opposite direction, saying that the term used for a local Christian worshiping community is just a matter of what is useful in mission and evangelism.
Scholarly, thank you.
What a really thoughtful, and helpful reply. Thank you. Since there has been, and will always be, disagreements over words and concepts, can we not just take a deep breath and try to believe in the good intentions on both sides? That we all hope to draw people into the life of God?
The Church IN England is largely NOT the Church OF England. If they're happy to drop the word "Church" they're happy to drop Jesus. Hence, no salvation. Hence why the Church in England is not the Church of England. We have higher standards.
Well I do have a problem with it, one of the reason's Christianity is so mocked, low on attendances and ridiculed is there are so many denominations these day's, just picking and choosing what they want to follow from scripture, (rather then it all, the way it is) that it barely seems to stand for anything anymore!
James 4:4 Who so ever makes themselves a friend of the world, becomes an enemy of God's!
You assume those who "ridicule christianity" and don't go to church love the world. They love Jesus, they hate his followers.
I thought they were only replacing the word 'church' to describe church plants, not the whole organisation.
I don’t worship community, I worship Jesus
No, it's stating a fact: that no single church plant had the word church in it in 900 churches they planted in the 11 dioceses . This is 25% of all dioceses so we have to assume there are 4x this number.
The CofE said this was DELIBERATE to remove the word church
They are also investing 82 million which is about 500 new church plants. None of these 3500 ish churches will have the name church in them this is in a nation with about 16,000 church of england churches that are declining and closing
So that means 20% of churches in ten years will not have the name church in them.. are you getting this yet?
It's paving the way for anyone to use the worshipping community building rainbow lit towers with any marriage in it any cult to use it any gender anything goes
They will drop Jesus next.
Prof and evangelist Michael Green said it was from kuriakos meaning the Lord’s
That’s brilliant Rev Dan that you opened your church for the Queen’s passing. Brilliant move to give people a place to mourn and face life without the Queen being in the backgrounds of all of our lives.
I think there is something special in having a beautiful, quiet church for people to come to. There was one open close to Manchester City centre years ago. It was almost always open so I could go in any time, any day. The vicar was always there to chat with anyone.
This is what people need. Our country is in need and people want someone they can trust to go to in their hour of need.
What people miss about church is it is about Jesus, not us. Church is not for our entertainment. It is to glorify Christ. We sing songs and pray because God gets something out of our prayer and song offerings. I want to go to church to honour God, rotate my week around giving that particular time to God and orientate my life around worship.
I fail, but going to church is a step forward.
I currently go to a Catholic Church that has a lot of defectors from the c of e following the c of e embracing the governments propaganda during covid.
I like that in this church, we are encouraged to like each other and support the new priests, support the work the church is doing but we are not encouraged to “be vulnerable” with each other. Being vulnerable is what evangelical churches do that is totally a great way for paedophiles, rapists and domestic abusers to locate pre-prepared victims. I absolutely hate it.
So no one in this church knows anything about me beyond my terrible singing voice and amazing clothes I get in sales. No one knows anything about me. No one is making demands on me to extend my work hours to Sundays too. No one is being bitchy to me and just acting weird as many Protestant church folk do. And no one is in my face about my gayness. No female leaders or congregation members are trying to get into relationships with me. No lunatics are trying to cast demons out or recommend me a new book on gay. No one is in my face about my gayness. It is a relief. I can go to church to worship Jesus.
The Mary bits don’t bother me. I just pray to Jesus. And only one priest does the Mary bits anyway and he is also the only one to mention the Pope. The other priests are Christ focussed and trained in Catholicism because it was the main church in their country of origin. Everything to do with the Pope has been removed from the church.
There are 300 people per service which is 3 times on a Sunday and 100 for midweek mass every day of the week too.
This church just preaches Jesus. Jesus is what people want. No gimmicks, no trendy trends. No bending the rules. Just Jesus.
catherinehume.wordpress.com/2024/07/14/lgbt-church-abuse-and-healing/
I went to a pioneering training day where walking in the mountains and stopping occasionally for a pray and meditation on a scripture has been redefined as a fresh expression of church. There was also a knit and natter group and a bread making group which were similarly defined. There are huge questions about the longevity, mission and ecclesiology (as in what is a church) about these groups. They tend to have very blurry edges. Of done by a member of a the clergy they can do communion, but there are more questions than answers in this.
thank you for this video, i was finding this issue hard to wrap my head around amidst ucas applications and my own personal study of scriptures and such!
The church is not a building its Gods people.
Gods a movement and not a monument. And what being preached theses days is not always whats in the bible its like a pick and mix gospel lord revive your true church lord we are to go out and preach Gods gospel yet in some ways we are happy just to turn up sit down then head home but forget its not about you or me but jesus .keep up the good work
"The Church of Simon Magus," and the "Chorus of Simony...😢."
That is an excellent video with a profound prophecy.
I have been led to believe that God is going to do something awesome in the year 2025.
It has been so much on my heart that I have wondered if Christ will return. The big question we should all ask ourselves, is, if Jesus is coming back next year, will be ready for him?
This from an established church website in Cambridge.
"I look forward to welcoming you to St xxxx - a busy community centre and worshipping community at the heart of Cambridge. We are a community that travels with questions: there are no easy answers in life and we live in complex and challenging times. Faith is not an easy win either, but it has the potential, if engaged with seriously, to be liberating. Faith in God offers a pathway that provides signposts, wells and springs, not fixed answers and certainty, but waymarkers and sustenance for the journey.
Most of all, being part of a faith community, means just that, belonging to a community. Having a place where you can be yourself, a place to call 'home' is a true blessing. We pray that you'll find a home here."
No surprise, it is a very liberal Church opps community.
Taking a leaf out of our new Prime Minister's book I would say that the argument has arisen from the failure of previous administrations! For many years we just neglected evangelism, evangelicals included.
A well balanced analysis there Rev Dan, thanks!
Jesus said: “And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build MY CHURCH, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.” Matthew 16: 18 niv
Having listened on to the end here, I do have one observation for consideration.
Much of this comes out of both the need and desire to free up lay people to lead and run a few things. Most of us cannot really dash off to theological college for three years and do the many years of training required before getting stuck in at church and leading or setting up a few things. I agree that "this is what we do anyway" but the sad fact is that vicars are often over stretched and limited on time in a system where "Church" has to have a "priest" presiding to really be seen as such.
It's a neat work around to just all things by other terms so as to avoid the theological debate as to how that all can work without "ordained" personnel.
Thus the creation of "pioneer ministers" who have a little bit of part time training, amd get a sort of strange bishops licence to carry on doing what they perhaps ordinarily would have done anyway in a healthy growing church.
Where there is not a healthy growing church you can see the imperative to let these people just get on with it.
"New Worshipping Community" was what our diocese & church used for a new service that was started 4 years, as it is a more contemporary service compared to the morning traditional liturgy, but we, as 2 different worship styles and services are one church.
I think the term worshipping community can be helpful if they're using a general term to describe both new churches but also new congregations in existing churches.
The Church of England has lost its way. Churches are closing and instead of looking and saying what can we do. They continue to slide into disappear
I'm so excited for the "of England"
York Minster, Ely Cathedral etc. where is church in those titles?
I do not know what the Arch Bishop of Canterbury did before being a clergy man but it obviously wasn’t engineering. Otherwise he would know what any sandcastle building infant knows. One week point and it all collapses. Removing the word Church and all it represents especially to other religions as steadfast in it’s teachings and beliefs, has the first crack appearing which will be interpreted as surrender to another main religion taking over, supporting new restrictions etc., etc.,
Heart breaking.
A welcome perspective on puzzling issues.
Well, if they've dropped the essentials of the faith (which they have), why not drop the description 'church'?
what are the "essentials of the faith?"
@@davidsprouse151 John 3:16 - the good news of salvation by faith in Jesus. But salvation involves repentance from sin, and when the CofE says that gays don't need to repent of their sin, they are contradicting the Bible and abandoning the essentials of the faith.
@@alanhowe1455 Everytime I hear a "but" it gets my attention
Yet again the C of E ties itself into more knots by sticking plasters on top of other plasters, using ever more justifiable language which brings with it issues both foreseen and unforeseen, which will then require more sticking plasters. There is a limit to the use of theological duct tape. sooner or later the underlying structure will collapse.
The church buildings are one of the Anglican churches biggest assets. But I have spent too many hours on a PCC discussing repairs, finding money and getting grants for the building. It absorbs so much energy and money that it is also a great liability. I have since converted to Catholicism, and we have much less of a problem maintaining our buildings. Unfortunately as Rev Dan alludes to, nobody knows where our churches are. The church where I currently worship is a former Methodist chapel. It doesn't look much like a church. Most people in the town are probably unaware there is a Catholic church. Everyone knows where the Anglican parish church is, you can't miss it.
Concerning trend:
Culturally acceptable words: community, worship (preferably of all things else it could be seen as discrimination)
Words being phased out?: Church, maybe God at some point?
"ecclesia" from the Greek means assembly, gathering, congregation, etc. It went directly into Latin and chiesa (Italian), iglesia (Spanish), eglise (French) all derive from it and continue to be the word for "church" in Italian, Spanish, and French. Germanic languages are the outlier using kirche, kirk, church, etc. and is thought to come from a Gothic word that came from Greek meaning referring to "lord." Naming new churches with "gathering" or "assembly" or "congregation" are actually better translations/transliterations of ecclesia for modern English and reflect the words used in Romance language countries.
Jesus started a church not a community or a ramblers group. We also had some bishop say there is a problem with the Lords Prayer you just could not make it up.
I wonder if the word _church_ has become debased coinage.
Not only does it describe an institution often unfaithful to its defining documents, that can carry on even after God has left it, and full of cobwebby deadness and traditions added over the centuries, but is too often synonymous with large scale abuse and it being covered up over the last few decades, regardless of denomination.
It is understandable that authentic NT believers might consider distancing themselves from such a term despite its long use in the language and bible.
Dan: Have you noticed how rarely Justin Welby and his fellow-bishops use the person of Jesus of Nazareth (Is he the gospel; or is it his message?) as their exemplar for human behaviour toward God and man. Instead, they opt for the 'progressive', 'woke', language of Identity Politics; with its Marxist division of humankind into 'victim' and 'oppressor'. Why do they do this; when they can preach Jesus of Nazareth as exemplar? I supect that the Church of England is not currently led by courageous people: at the very time when it needs to be led by a charismatic figure, once more: even if he/she is only 'primus inter pares'. Would Jesus of Nazareth have chosen a single one of the current bench of bishops to be disciples?
How about the Church of England embrace holy tradition and a return to the faith of the undivided church of the first Millennium rather than modernity. It is after all the principal of the English reformation.
Several years ago i performed in L'Homme Arme: A Mass for Peace by Composer Karl Jenkins ( I really was once a musician),
it was nice music with some very beautiful moments
BUT
it had no credo.
This was one of the several things that really offended me about this work
I bitterly noted at the time that this was because it expressed NO BELIEF
my point?
the Anglican hierarchy might want to call themselves a worshiping communing but they will NEVER call themselves a BELIEVING community
so, believing nothing they have nothing to worship
except themselves.
they STILL have nothing to offer, as befits a burbling irrelevance
In the first century 'church' met in peoples homes, they did not need large impersonal buildings, clerics in fancy dress or any of the rest of the nonsense. The word worship does not mean what the church has come to make it. The first use of the word is found in Genesis 22:5 Abraham has been told by God to sacrifice his only and beloved son Isaac, they travel 3 days to the foot of a mountain in Moriah, he says Genesis 22:5 'And Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey; the lad and I will go yonder and worship, and we will come back to you.” Worship is sacrifice something important to you in order to glorify God, worship is when we demonstrate to God that He is No 1 in our lives.
Hallelujah!!! I’m blessed and favored with $60,000 every week! Now I can afford anything and support the work of God and the church. For Your glory, LORD! HALLELUJAH!
Whoa, hold up did I hear you right? Sixty thousand a week? You gotta explain that, because that sounds wild.
Yeah, it’s crazy, ain’t it? I started small, just testing the waters with a few bucks, and now it’s grown into somethin’ real serious. God’s been good to me, no doubt!
Yessir! I have a great Trader and advisor, Melissa Jonas Richard. She showed me the ropes, broke it down real simple like, She made the whole process straightforward and manageable. and helped me make the right moves. Started to see results almost right away.
Even when things seemed a bit uncertain, she had a strategy to navigate through it.
Mate, $60,000 a week? That’s bonkers! Was it risky? You know how some of these new age things can be, in and out like a flash.
This is a good move - I did wonder if it might be an initial step from separating what is no longer a biblical church from what remains as the English orthodox church. If it's Welby's idea, it's the best he's had.
The WC of England, well that applies to not very Welby
Because the Church has a Corporate / Business approach and has a brand , it therefore has to be popular / relevant etc....
What is wrong with change.
Rebranding doesn't work if the product is not what people want. I agee that the local church is an asset and should not be seen as a liability.
This is yet another sign of a church that has lost its way. I have many names I'd call the C of E. What would the Apostles call them, I wonder.
Before you change the name " church " think about these things
1.what was Jesus's intetion to call it a " church "
2. The context of Jesus's teachings
3. If Jesus comes back now, how did he feel about those who contradict with his teachings?
These are essential questions. Also, what is the role of a church in a christians life? What was the role of st. peter?
I looked up the meaning of church in the Hebrew. It simply means assembly. I doubt if our SAVIOUR would have even used that word. He would more than likely used Shepherd and Sheep as he did to Peter when he told him to feed his lambs, shepherd his sheep, feed his sheep. Which the church actually neglects
Knesset is not just Assembly BUT a group who are for worship and mission
Amen
Personally I think it’s a great idea since CofE doesn’t worship Christ or teach his word. I don’t think they should confuse people into thinking it is a church.
Wow! Nailed it! Unfortunately, it is not just the CofE. Many other churches are falling into the same trap.
Evangelical churches and baptists are very very different from Anglicans. I went to a non denominational Evangelical church when I left the Scottish Episcopal Church, temporarily for about 3 years until I found a permanent church home. Evangelical church is very superficial in comparison to Anglican/episcopal beliefs.
I've heard they are denying this, I believe it's because of the backlash. Maybe we should have this type of cry with same sex blessings and before that women vicars and bishop's
It seems to me that you are an apologist for the church.
On this rock I will build my......er......er.....
Sorry, but either it's a church or not. Why drop the name?
I also read more and more about how church of England is no longer following doctrine and argues against the scriptures. Sure you can meet and preach the gospel and share in communion but if church of England no longer stands by the bible and falls away from orthodoxy....it's all kind of pointless 🧐
I was part of the Scottish Episcopal church. I was baptised and confirmed in the episcopal church. Then it gave up on being orthodox and wanted to cater to the woke and the liberals.
I left and now I am a happy Lutheran 🙂
Praise the Lord, He is Faithful and always opens the eyes and ears of those who are truly seeking Him and His ways with all of their heart, soul, body and mind.
"Follow Me"
Dont be so caught up in them falling away from the word Church. Be more concerned that they have fallen away from the faith!!!
They just need the word, prayer and repentance the Lord will add to there number those that are being saved, but there not believing there going to keep failing , it would be better when they have gone . Then the church of God wouldn't be hindered, by there ideology, apostasy, it's simple . Thanks for high lighting this stuff .
I can tell you they not any community i would have anything to do with in fact anyone with an ounce of common sense will ran in the oposite direction.
I left Two Years ago. Consider myself a Displaced member of the ECFCE now!
@simeonyves5940 good for you. I go to an independent church filled with the holy spirit tongue talking and devil chasing.
It is a Missional Community NOT a worshipping community
Catholic Church is the one true church founded by Jesus
You are Peter upon this rock I will build my communities…. 😂
As it is written,
"You will know them (your true brothers and sisters in Christ) by their fruits".
And we are seeing a lot of rotten fruit coming from them and many wolves in sheep's clothing leading His beautiful flocks astray.
A non story. Plenty to tilt at the C of E for but not this.
I am writing this before I have listened to everything said here, either by Rev Dan or other contributors. My own feeling is that the matter of apparently dropping the use of the word "church" has been criticised unfairly. In current usage, "church" is generally used for the building. If one wants to speak about the people and what goes on then speaking of worshipping community is much better.
Thanks Dan. Let's not also forget that the world church in Anglican circles, comes with baggage. As a 'church' there is a load of rules and expectations that go with it, making the creation of new churches wanting to try a different mode of operating hard to enable. This is not to mention the save the parish movement who are often against new gospel centred initiatives, which if called church, would provide reason for complaint. Like you, I don't think the use of the world matters terribly. Of all the things we could argue over, this is super trivial.
I'm not Christian, I'm Jewish, a rabbi in fact. However I'd say the message of the Bible is pretty radical and would doubtless be called "Woke" by many. When asked to sum it up Hillel a rabbi who died in 10CE (AD) said quoting a verse from Leviticus 19:18 "Love your neighbour as yourself". We are also commanded to take care of the refugee and to care for the planet. The Bible is very what you would term "Woke".
Woke nonsense
You are delusional to what The Bible states.
Church of England is over....Be a good boy Rev you wouldn't want to lose your cushy community salary and easy life.
🫢
They only work one day a week.