During the last few years or during eternity? Pension plans when you are 50? Fine. Low taxation on income? Fine. Corrupt bitches? Fine. Economical disaster? Eat it :)
Where I stand (see below as to why): - I myself am from The Netherlands, - I am pro-EU (I believe in working together means being able to compete against the USA and China) - I support money going to Italy and Spain (as these countries have been hit hard and can use support) - But I am against Eurobonds (perhaps in the future when in my opinion crucial conditions are met) As Italy has been hurt hard, I definitely would support money going from The Netherlands to Italy to help them. And sharing resources like Germany does when taking up patients, will easy the suffering this virus causes. I suspect that this pandemic is far from over and plenty of trouble will probably lay ahead. Anyway, the reason I am against Eurobonds has to do with what I perceive as a flaw in the Euro. The stability of the coin is a joined effort, meaning that if one country does not take its responsibility, it will affect the other countries in a negative way. There is no central authority in the matter as countries can determine for themselves how much money they spend (one coin, but no real central governance). This flaw leads to the possibility of finger-pointing, which is actually occurring (see the conflict between the EU and Italy over its budget last year). And with Eurobonds, the incentive for certain countries to keep up a healthy budget, will be decreased even more. Which means that having an unhealthy budget of some countries, will affect other countries negatively, which I suspect will lead to additional finger pointing. I do not think that Eurobonds is a bad thing for the future, if done correctly it might be a very good thing for various reasons (I am no economic, thus I would not know), But I am definitely against Eurobonds when this issue is not yet fixed. I do suspect that fixing this probably requires a tighter integration of the countries that participates in the Euro (which might result in parliaments on a national level having less influence on the budget of their own countries). This itself will probably open up a whole new can of worms though... those who are in favour of Eurobonds, are you also in favour if giving up control over how much your nation is allowed to spend? Cause that might be the end result. A few loose notes: - That people die of the current health crises is the reason I support aid being provided (money or otherwise), but I fail to see how that would be a relevant argument with regards to Eurobonds (I mention this as I see this in the comments a few times). - Budgets are always a difficult issue. These things not only divide people on the left and right spectrum of politics, but also regions inside countries (as happens in Italy, Spain and Belgium). And I have yet to hear about a silver bullet (from a trustworthy source).
If Eurobonds are not used in this situation, when would you like to use them? tell me ! Give a concrete example. I think that EU no longer has reason to exist.... From France!!
@@pinco752 When?.. When there is a further integration where Eurobonds are a part of. And that further integration should lead to a system that will not result into future finger-pointing and where the phrase "the chain is as strong as its weakest link" no longer holds. At least, that is my personal view. Here there is the following narrative that is shared a lot in The Netherlands: 1) Some countries didn't (even try to) commit to the financial obligations with regards to limiting national debts, despite the treaty of Maastricht. This resulted in a dispute last year and some bad blood in other countries that try to keep the Euro stable and do keep their national budget in check when not in a crisis. 2) Now, the countries that neglected the treaty they signed, have a high national deficit, and therefor lack the means to fight the economical crises that is now starting. 3) Next, these countries demand that other countries give them money (through Eurobonds). It is not a "help me", but a "help me and I demand that you do X for me". I myself om not an economic expert and there might be plenty wrong with this narrative, or at least it requires plenty of nuances. But it is a narrative that many people in The Netherlands feel is largely correct. Any politician here simply cannot neglect this narrative. (thus either adding conditions, or having very good and very sellable arguments as to why that narrative is wrong.) I personally am not opposed to Eurobonds, but not on its own and certainly not on demand. As long as there is the possibility that people from one country have (valid) reason to believe that the financial misconduct of another country affects them negatively (in other ways than reduced trade), I myself om not keen on Eurobonds. Till what in my opinion I think is a flaw, is either fixed or will be fixed in the near future (I have no idea how but think that economist might have good ideas), I personally prefer to just send money. Anyway, here you have my answer as to 'when'. Not sure if you like it or not, but it is how I personally feel. I do am curious as to what you think of my 'when'.
@@roelofjacobs5807 You have been very clear on the explanation, I think it is very technical and it is nothing but the thought of your public opinion as you yourself said you are not an economist and I can tell you as a Frenchman that I can share it in some points. However, I leave the bureaucracy aside and prefer to be more concrete and I ask you this: what would Germany today have been like if the war debt had not been eliminated? Sometimes I try to put myself in the place of the Mediterranean countries involved and I think of people who are not to blame for all this. I repeat, a Europe made in this way has no reason to exist, one day something could happen to our countries. Nobody is excluded. I think France should get out of this fake Europe. regards
@@pinco752 "What would Germany today have been like if the war debt had not been eliminated? " What would Europe be without the Marshall plan? What would France be without the allies that fried it? How would the French health system do without Germany taking up patients from all over Europe? How would The Netherlands do without the support it got in 1953 when large parts of the country got flooded? What would have happened if Germany had not suffered under the WW-I war debt? What would...etc? I personally do not think that "what if..." sentiment is useful. Although I do understand the desire to fall back to German war debt narrative. The Italians currently don't like Germany and feel as if they have been the victim, so they will listen to anything that proofs that Germany is a villain (true or not). It does however in a sense create yet another narrative that can't be neglected. Just recall that I spoke to an Italian earlier, who looked at the unemployment figures of 1991 and 2019, comparing Germany and Italy, stating that the EU appears to only work for Germany... failing to take into consideration the reunification of Germany the year earlier, with East-Germany suffering economically from decades of communist regimes. Cause that might have influenced the numbers in 1991 a little bit. Is the Italian person wrong? Could still be that the EU works good for Germany and bad for Italy, I have no idea, neither did the Italian, but he/she thought to have good proof. And as I suspect many Italians feel this way, another narrative has to be dealt with. Anyway, I personally think too many good things will be destroyed when the EU (and the Euro) disintegrates. So I sincerely hope that some important fundaments will be fixed/improved (rather sooner than later). Although, should the EU blow up, starting with a no-deal Brexit that still hasn't happened, such an event might be able to remove a couple of false blinding narratives.
@@roelofjacobs5807 my friend!! The "what if" narrative is not useful? However, I believe that we must always reflect on this to avoid falling into epochal errors. The concrete truth is that the EU must change enormously starting from these public opinions which are good only for the correct numbers, but without understanding the true sense of union. I myself am not an economist like you but my country (France) does not like this false and hypocritical union so much. The same story you explained above is not good. I believe you noticed it too. I repeat your explanation in theory is correct but in practice you risk dividing the nations. As it happens today in my country. I am for a "Frexit" as soon as possible. We don't want the Brussels bureaucrats that we citizens of France pay !!! They only took money and created problems. You yourself hope that EU does not disintegrate because good things exist. I ask you ... is it possible in a European project that there are so many countries that don't agree? Obviously there is something wrong! Ask this question to yourself and answer without economics theories reported. regards
Joining the Eurozone was a catastrophic mistake for Italy. It was driven into joining by the politics of the Italian political elite, not the basic economics the country. The Italian economy wasn't structurally suited to it - hence the 20 years of stagnation, zero growth, high unemployment, and a Government Debt to GDP ratio that is completely unsustainable. This situation can't continue indefinitely, and its well time that the likes of pro eu Italian establishment come to understand this? At present no solution is being offered, just more stagnation. Eurobonds won't make the Italian economy more competitive, it needs an environment that fosters growth not even more debt.
wealth of Italian households: 9 Trillion € Italian public debt: 2 Trillion € Italian politicians: we‘re in a debt crisis!😂 You can‘t make this stuff up! source: www.istat.it/en/archivio/230267
How can mutualising debt ever be a solution to a problem? Has history taught us nothing? I am a European and I love the Italian people, but the Euro has been a true disaster... And the Northern countries can not foot the bill... How many examples of error does to world have to witness, before it draws the true conclusion... That the system we had, with national currencies, is the way to go... A currency is like a suit, which suits the person. Look at all the cases in which mutualisation of debt has gone wrong... It has never worked.
Every second pension in Germany is less than 900 euros. Ascending trend. Every second pensioner is dependent on basic security from the state in order to make ends meet. The Germans are the ones who put themselves to death in the EU so that they are dependent on financial support from the state or children when they retire. Italians want Eurobonds. The main thing is that the German citizen pays. Italy already has its pensioners cost more than 300 billion euros, which, according to INPS, is still 16.4 percent of gross domestic product (GDP), i.e. what Italy generates annually. The state alone raised more than 105 billion euros in 2018. Germany pays its pensioners “only” 355 billion euros or 11 percent of GDP. In terms of population (Germany 82.5 and Italy 60.5 million), this is significantly less in percentage terms.
You cant wait until you weigh one ounce ( or less). A government in the Netherlands is not possible without the support of one of the right wing parties CDA ( Christian Democrats) or the VVD ( Conservative right wing liberals). Both commit political suicide by accepting eurobonds. They will never do so. Prime minister Rutte is doing well in the polls because he refuses eurobonds. So does Wopke Hoekstra, finance minister. There are other solutions. I do understand the diference in mindset between the south and the north. My mum is from Spain, dad is Dutch. THE NETHERLANDS WILL NEVER AGREE WITH EUROBONDS. YOU CAN LOBBY WHAT YOU WANT. IT WONT HAPPEN.
It has nothing to do with selfishness. All countries can point their finger at each other. But if you look at the agreements that the countries have made. The southern countries have waited too long (especially Italy) to reform. A lot is already being done on solidarity. ECB buys government bonds from debtor countries. That is money from all countries. All countries have indicated that they want to help, including Germany, including the Frugal 4. There is only a difference between a support package and Eurobonds. Eurobond would mean that all debts are lumped together. It would be the same if you all eat in a restaurant. A Dutchman, an Austrian, a Swedish and Danish man takes a soup and an ice cream. The Greek, Italian, Spaniard and French all take a 5-course menu. The bill comes and we divide it by 8. The first group looks at each other a bit strange, but they agree. Then the 2nd group says ... let's do this every week.
Help yes. But no way we will take debt to pay the southern European bills. They choosed not to do their homework during the last few years.
During the last few years or during eternity? Pension plans when you are 50? Fine. Low taxation on income? Fine. Corrupt bitches? Fine. Economical disaster? Eat it :)
During the last few years we have been paying your money. So tell me, how can we save money we don't have?
Where I stand (see below as to why):
- I myself am from The Netherlands,
- I am pro-EU (I believe in working together means being able to compete against the USA and China)
- I support money going to Italy and Spain (as these countries have been hit hard and can use support)
- But I am against Eurobonds (perhaps in the future when in my opinion crucial conditions are met)
As Italy has been hurt hard, I definitely would support money going from The Netherlands to Italy to help them. And sharing resources like Germany does when taking up patients, will easy the suffering this virus causes. I suspect that this pandemic is far from over and plenty of trouble will probably lay ahead.
Anyway, the reason I am against Eurobonds has to do with what I perceive as a flaw in the Euro. The stability of the coin is a joined effort, meaning that if one country does not take its responsibility, it will affect the other countries in a negative way. There is no central authority in the matter as countries can determine for themselves how much money they spend (one coin, but no real central governance). This flaw leads to the possibility of finger-pointing, which is actually occurring (see the conflict between the EU and Italy over its budget last year). And with Eurobonds, the incentive for certain countries to keep up a healthy budget, will be decreased even more. Which means that having an unhealthy budget of some countries, will affect other countries negatively, which I suspect will lead to additional finger pointing.
I do not think that Eurobonds is a bad thing for the future, if done correctly it might be a very good thing for various reasons (I am no economic, thus I would not know), But I am definitely against Eurobonds when this issue is not yet fixed. I do suspect that fixing this probably requires a tighter integration of the countries that participates in the Euro (which might result in parliaments on a national level having less influence on the budget of their own countries). This itself will probably open up a whole new can of worms though... those who are in favour of Eurobonds, are you also in favour if giving up control over how much your nation is allowed to spend? Cause that might be the end result.
A few loose notes:
- That people die of the current health crises is the reason I support aid being provided (money or otherwise), but I fail to see how that would be a relevant argument with regards to Eurobonds (I mention this as I see this in the comments a few times).
- Budgets are always a difficult issue. These things not only divide people on the left and right spectrum of politics, but also regions inside countries (as happens in Italy, Spain and Belgium). And I have yet to hear about a silver bullet (from a trustworthy source).
If Eurobonds are not used in this situation, when would you like to use them? tell me ! Give a concrete example. I think that EU no longer has reason to exist.... From France!!
@@pinco752
When?.. When there is a further integration where Eurobonds are a part of. And that further integration should lead to a system that will not result into future finger-pointing and where the phrase "the chain is as strong as its weakest link" no longer holds. At least, that is my personal view.
Here there is the following narrative that is shared a lot in The Netherlands:
1) Some countries didn't (even try to) commit to the financial obligations with regards to limiting national debts, despite the treaty of Maastricht. This resulted in a dispute last year and some bad blood in other countries that try to keep the Euro stable and do keep their national budget in check when not in a crisis.
2) Now, the countries that neglected the treaty they signed, have a high national deficit, and therefor lack the means to fight the economical crises that is now starting.
3) Next, these countries demand that other countries give them money (through Eurobonds). It is not a "help me", but a "help me and I demand that you do X for me".
I myself om not an economic expert and there might be plenty wrong with this narrative, or at least it requires plenty of nuances. But it is a narrative that many people in The Netherlands feel is largely correct. Any politician here simply cannot neglect this narrative. (thus either adding conditions, or having very good and very sellable arguments as to why that narrative is wrong.)
I personally am not opposed to Eurobonds, but not on its own and certainly not on demand. As long as there is the possibility that people from one country have (valid) reason to believe that the financial misconduct of another country affects them negatively (in other ways than reduced trade), I myself om not keen on Eurobonds. Till what in my opinion I think is a flaw, is either fixed or will be fixed in the near future (I have no idea how but think that economist might have good ideas), I personally prefer to just send money.
Anyway, here you have my answer as to 'when'. Not sure if you like it or not, but it is how I personally feel. I do am curious as to what you think of my 'when'.
@@roelofjacobs5807 You have been very clear on the explanation, I think it is very technical and it is nothing but the thought of your public opinion as you yourself said you are not an economist and I can tell you as a Frenchman that I can share it in some points. However, I leave the bureaucracy aside and prefer to be more concrete and I ask you this: what would Germany today have been like if the war debt had not been eliminated? Sometimes I try to put myself in the place of the Mediterranean countries involved and I think of people who are not to blame for all this. I repeat, a Europe made in this way has no reason to exist, one day something could happen to our countries. Nobody is excluded. I think France should get out of this fake Europe. regards
@@pinco752
"What would Germany today have been like if the war debt had not been eliminated? "
What would Europe be without the Marshall plan? What would France be without the allies that fried it? How would the French health system do without Germany taking up patients from all over Europe? How would The Netherlands do without the support it got in 1953 when large parts of the country got flooded? What would have happened if Germany had not suffered under the WW-I war debt? What would...etc?
I personally do not think that "what if..." sentiment is useful. Although I do understand the desire to fall back to German war debt narrative. The Italians currently don't like Germany and feel as if they have been the victim, so they will listen to anything that proofs that Germany is a villain (true or not). It does however in a sense create yet another narrative that can't be neglected.
Just recall that I spoke to an Italian earlier, who looked at the unemployment figures of 1991 and 2019, comparing Germany and Italy, stating that the EU appears to only work for Germany... failing to take into consideration the reunification of Germany the year earlier, with East-Germany suffering economically from decades of communist regimes. Cause that might have influenced the numbers in 1991 a little bit. Is the Italian person wrong? Could still be that the EU works good for Germany and bad for Italy, I have no idea, neither did the Italian, but he/she thought to have good proof. And as I suspect many Italians feel this way, another narrative has to be dealt with.
Anyway, I personally think too many good things will be destroyed when the EU (and the Euro) disintegrates. So I sincerely hope that some important fundaments will be fixed/improved (rather sooner than later).
Although, should the EU blow up, starting with a no-deal Brexit that still hasn't happened, such an event might be able to remove a couple of false blinding narratives.
@@roelofjacobs5807 my friend!! The "what if" narrative is not useful? However, I believe that we must always reflect on this to avoid falling into epochal errors.
The concrete truth is that the EU must change enormously starting from these public opinions which are good only for the correct numbers, but without understanding the true sense of union. I myself am not an economist like you but my country (France) does not like this false and hypocritical union so much.
The same story you explained above is not good. I believe you noticed it too. I repeat your explanation in theory is correct but in practice you risk dividing the nations. As it happens today in my country. I am for a "Frexit" as soon as possible. We don't want the Brussels bureaucrats that we citizens of France pay !!! They only took money and created problems.
You yourself hope that EU does not disintegrate because good things exist.
I ask you ... is it possible in a European project that there are so many countries that don't agree? Obviously there is something wrong! Ask this question to yourself and answer without economics theories reported. regards
Joining the Eurozone was a catastrophic mistake for Italy. It was driven into joining by the politics of the Italian political elite, not the basic economics the country. The Italian economy wasn't structurally suited to it - hence the 20 years of stagnation, zero growth, high unemployment, and a Government Debt to GDP ratio that is completely unsustainable. This situation can't continue indefinitely, and its well time that the likes of pro eu Italian establishment come to understand this? At present no solution is being offered, just more stagnation. Eurobonds won't make the Italian economy more competitive, it needs an environment that fosters growth not even more debt.
wealth of Italian households: 9 Trillion €
Italian public debt: 2 Trillion €
Italian politicians: we‘re in a debt crisis!😂
You can‘t make this stuff up!
source: www.istat.it/en/archivio/230267
Eurobonds will never happen as long as southern Europe does not want to live as northern Europe.
Let's not point the evil finger at someone. all countries have their own priorities. Let's hope the virus gets defeated soon!
There is no way back from that.
@Alfa&Omega 00000 And no one cares in the north. The EU is extremely umpopular over here.
@@ol7926 naief geklets
@AndreasAntoniusMaria That may seem so, but as long as we do not implement the same policy everywhere, little will change.
How can mutualising debt ever be a solution to a problem? Has history taught us nothing?
I am a European and I love the Italian people, but the Euro has been a true disaster... And the Northern countries can not foot the bill...
How many examples of error does to world have to witness, before it draws the true conclusion... That the system we had, with national currencies, is the way to go... A currency is like a suit, which suits the person. Look at all the cases in which mutualisation of debt has gone wrong... It has never worked.
Every second pension in Germany is less than 900 euros. Ascending trend. Every second pensioner is dependent on basic security from the state in order to make ends meet. The Germans are the ones who put themselves to death in the EU so that they are dependent on financial support from the state or children when they retire. Italians want Eurobonds. The main thing is that the German citizen pays. Italy already has its pensioners cost more than 300 billion euros, which, according to INPS, is still 16.4 percent of gross domestic product (GDP), i.e. what Italy generates annually. The state alone raised more than 105 billion euros in 2018. Germany pays its pensioners “only” 355 billion euros or 11 percent of GDP. In terms of population (Germany 82.5 and Italy 60.5 million), this is significantly less in percentage terms.
So change the treaties
Extremely egoistic behaviour from dutch governament. SHAME ON YOU NEDERLAND.
You cant wait until you weigh one ounce ( or less). A government in the Netherlands is not possible without the support of one of the right wing parties CDA ( Christian Democrats) or the VVD ( Conservative right wing liberals). Both commit political suicide by accepting eurobonds. They will never do so. Prime minister Rutte is doing well in the polls because he refuses eurobonds. So does Wopke Hoekstra, finance minister. There are other solutions. I do understand the diference in mindset between the south and the north. My mum is from Spain, dad is Dutch. THE NETHERLANDS WILL NEVER AGREE WITH EUROBONDS. YOU CAN LOBBY WHAT YOU WANT. IT WONT HAPPEN.
It has nothing to do with selfishness.
All countries can point their finger at each other. But if you look at the agreements that the countries have made. The southern countries have waited too long (especially Italy) to reform.
A lot is already being done on solidarity.
ECB buys government bonds from debtor countries. That is money from all countries.
All countries have indicated that they want to help, including Germany, including the Frugal 4.
There is only a difference between a support package and Eurobonds.
Eurobond would mean that all debts are lumped together.
It would be the same if you all eat in a restaurant. A Dutchman, an Austrian, a Swedish and Danish man takes a soup and an ice cream.
The Greek, Italian, Spaniard and French all take a 5-course menu.
The bill comes and we divide it by 8.
The first group looks at each other a bit strange, but they agree.
Then the 2nd group says ... let's do this every week.