Everyone, take a look in the comments section at the dialogue between me and kajmobile. Thumb this post up if you think I completely destroyed him, or thumb it down if you think I lost.
"Top-down state communism or Leninism requires calculation." Right, but other forms of socialism just squander resources in contempt of such petty things like resorces preservation. Very good point indeed :D
@kajmobile You're not getting it. The number of hours is irrelevant. Each laborer produces different goods using different tools and processes. Because each of these processes require different things, each of these processes has it's own cost. Because of this, labor hours can NOT be used to calculate the cost of production because different laborers produce more/less within an hour. Attempting to put a universal price tag on an hour of labor, no matter what it is, is going to completely fail.
@dysesthesiaAethiopi1 Actually, Mr. Rockwell doesn't work with the Koch brothers. The last time I checked the LvMi is pretty much black marked by them. You won't find any LvMi being a guest at a Cato Institute meeting any time soon.
ALL monetary economic activity requires calculation. However, monopolies act within a market system that gives them prices and allows for them to calculate, unlike where there is only one economic agent. Mises talks about the kind of "socialism" you refer to in his book Socialism, and defines it as syndicalism to distinguish it from what most people mean by socialism (public ownership of the means of production). It doesn't suffer from the calculation problem, but has other flaws.
Need is always relative to a goal. People do not have needs: instead, there are things the need to be done/obtained in order for other things to be done/obtained.
@Xasew if u dig 1 hole by hand for 5 hours, the cost is 5 hours. if u dug a second hole for 5 hours with a bulldozer, the cost would be 5 hours plus the time it took to make the bulldozer times whatever percentage 5 hours consumes of the bulldozers lifespan if it takes 10k hours to make a bulldozer and it will last 500 hours of use, the cost of using that bulldozer for 5 hours is 100 labor hours so the second hole costs 105 labor hours this is the same accounting system every biz today uses
Watching the Austrian School grow and attract haters from the Keynesian/Socialist thought is hilarious, even though the Keynesian ideas have been tried and have utterly failed. Salerno also gave a lecture concerning the death of Macroeconomics, which was 100% correct. Macroeconomic thought is dying out, even in the mainstream circles. The global economic crisis is showing the people that the Macroeconomists/Socialists have absolutely no clue what they're talking about.
It strikes me that Joe has left out something very important when talking about markets and prices. That being that theres many different prices for the "same" object. Different businesses are able to afford different amounts of a good at different prices. That a price thats cheap for one firm can be too expensive for another firm which may seek an alternative or wait for the price to fall etc. And its these constant adjustments by all individuals that make a market(consumers see things as cheap
"Do you think someone in your system would give me 17,000 hours of labor time for my book?" if a publisher thought they could successfully sell enough copies of the book u wrote, then yes a publisher would pay u to write it. that is how publishing works.
@PanzerDivisionBOM ur comment wasnt clear. i thought u were referring to an article that salerno wrote. lol the economic calculation article written by mises was debunked by economists in the subsequent "economic calculation debate." hayek later tried to salvage mises's argument by saying that although calculation is possible in a socialist economy, the information was too hard to gather which is ridiculous and no economist takes seriously.
"...a saint, mother Theresa or an evil guy like stalin..." Mother Theresa was an evil person. Maybe not quite as bad as Stalin, but at least in one aspect was she more dangerous: she was a religious lunatic and a zealot. She was a friend of suffering, not of the suffering.
@mynameisalsojeff did you listen to the video. there are no price signals to calculate. its like stabbing in a dark. needs are not ends in themselves. a single end has an infinite amount of means.
@kajmobile "if u make something that takes 5 hours and u used a tool that took 4 hours, the cost would be 9, not 5 (assuming the tool can only be used once)" But who's buying the tools? If the producer is buying them, he's losing money in this instance, and if the government is buying them, EVERYONE is losing because the government has to run a deficit in order to sustain inefficient means of production with relation to cost. What you're talking about is just silly.
@kajmobile Let's say current production requires capital goods. The production of those capital goods required other capital goods in the past. The production of these capital goods also required capital goods. And so on, until you go temporally backwards enough to reach a point where no capital goods are required(e.g. the stone age). That's how far back you would have to go in history to do your neat calculations. Very useful.
@sunnyvegas702 all production comes from labor. so the cost of anything produced is the amount of labor hours it consumed of the total labor hours we are able to work. since we both abide by the same laws of physics, 1 hour of my labor time is exactly equal to 1 hour of your labor time regardless of how u think u perceive yourself
@kajmobile Are you going to answer my argument at some point? After painting yourself into an intellectual corner you fail to understand my point or just dance around the issue on purpose. Are you going to deny that production takes time? And if you don't deny this, then how can you not realize that you have to go backwards temporally to do your calculations?
@TheManiacalSatanist6 Funny thing is he's right. I used to live in San Fransisco for some time. He hit the nail right on the head. And these problems STILL occur in smaller towns and communities. Not just big cities.
@Xasew That's what happens if you try to add up the capital goods into the calculation. But if you don't, then it will lead to absurdities: Two identical ditches will have completely different prices if the other one's done with a bulldozer and the other one with bare hands.
Great lecture, but I think rivers of lemonade and all, there are some fascinating and important moments in Fourier, particularly his critique of repressive cultural aspects of society, such as patriarchal ones, see e.g., The History Guide, Lecture 21, "The Utopian Socialists: Charles Fourier" (online).
@TheManiacalSatanist6 "Accounting now depends upon MARKET PRICES" i understand how business currently works. the point i was making is that a business on its financials and in determining prices needs to add its direct labor costs and its indirect expenses, some of which r depreciated. in a labor time system, businesses will continue to do the exact same thing: adding their direct labor costs plus its indirect expenses, some of which r depreciated.
@sunnyvegas702 u can organize companies because u can predict sales to some degree. and people will work at companies that produce the things people r buying. consumer purchases dictate where u can work. if ur sales prediction turned out wrong and revenue is less than expenses, the company will get shut down and the employees will have to work at another company that is producing things people r buying
@kajmobile Continued: Not only that, but the labor hours formula completely destroys the exchange system. If Producers have to buy tools that cost 4 hours to produce, but output a good that product that costs 5 hours to produce, under your system, the produces is running at a loss no matter what he's producing. He could be producing medical innovations. So are you going to bail him out? But how are you going to do that when the government has no capital because the PEOPLE have no capital?
@kajmobile Hayek conceded a lot of things, and I don't consider Hayek to be a real supporter of the Free-Market, so referencing him in this conversation is moot. If the Labor Time system was truly better and had that many economists swinging to it, we'd have the system already in place. But we don't. So somewhere along the line, assuming that professional economists thought the Labor Time system was better to begin with, discarded this opinion at one point. It's not a valid position anymore.
@PanzerDivisionBOM "Your position is predicted and addressed in the article" what article? his critique of labor time in this talk is wrong. he says it wont work because u cant compare the labor of cashiers and scientists. but u dont need to in order to manage an economy. 1hour = 1hour regardless of profession. consumers dont care what professions created the product and he says u cant price capital goods. y cant a company that makes capital goods add up their labor time? it's an absurd claim
there r no contradictions. u r passing because u have no idea what u r talking about or what LTV is. u mistakenly thought LTV means only labor is used in production
@kajmobile So is an hour of a Brain-Surgeon's time worth an hour of a construction worker's time? Of course not. Labor is a heterogeneous commodity that has to be bought within the market place. Since each laborer *in different fields of labor* produce different things, and have differing processes and tools of production that must be used in the production of a good or service, it is completely impossible to calculate the cost of production using labor hours.
@Xasew labor is NOT heterogeneous.1 hour of sweeping the floor is the SAME as 1 hour of cleaning a window or designing a building. they are ALL 1 hour of labor ALL production comes from labor. so the cost of anything is how much of our total labor it took to produce if u mold an ounce of silver into a square or a cross or a sphere, they do not become heterogeneous. they r all still an ounce of silver saying product A took 1200 hours to make and product B took 50 hours is NOT meaningless!
@kajmobile "but the consumer still has full control over how they value what is produced because they decide what they buy and dont buy" That doesn't matter. If the cost of production can't be accurately calculated, then even if consumers are buying, then chances are you're losing money per good sold, because you couldn't accurately calculate the cost of production. And since labor hours can't be universally applied to all fields of labor, it is impossible to calculate the costs. Cont.
@TheManiacalSatanist6 in ur car factory, the final cost of the cars will be ur factory employee time plus all the expenses incurred from buying tools, machines, gas, electric, water, materials, etc. business from an accounting standpoint will work exactly the same as they do now. they would follow all of the same accounting rules and depreciation schedules. the only difference is employee compensation is fixed, they r not determined by the market.
@TheManiacalSatanist6 u r not understanding the conversation. perhaps read my earlier comments. "Because each laborer produces DIFFERENT things using DIFFERENT processes, and produce at DIFFERENT outputs within a unit of hours, each of these DIFFERENT processes has it's OWN, UNIQUE cost attached to it." that is true. each thing we produce requires different amounts of labor. so they will have different prices. the price is TOTAL labor including the labor of all inputs (tools, material, etc)
It depends on how you define "working". Austro-Libertarians would say that government typically "works" exactly as it was intended - that is, to centralize power in the hands of a few egomaniacs, who use the guns and jails of the State to impose their will (or majority opinion) on the populace. If you define "working" as being an engine of economic growth, truth, justice, etc. then the answer is "no" - govt. never achieves these ends, as it is based on coercion and one-size-fits-all policies.
@Xasew production does take time. that is y the only rational way to measure production cost is to measure how much labor time it took u dont pay the earth when u take its gold, u dont pay the forest when u take its wood. u pay people for their labor time only so the cost of everything produced is the total labor time it took to make that good or service and the depreciated portion of all the labor time it took to make the tools, machines, materials used in its production
u r misinformed. classical economics and its LTV are not false it is just not useful in describing individual agents in a market but value is governed by how much labor was used. if u try to sell something for more than the amount of labor that was used to make that something, people wont buy. they will just hire the labor and make it themselves.
@kajmobile So a silver coin and pendant are homogeneous goods as long as they both weigh 1 ounce? What an absurd position to take. So you're arguing that every hour of labor is homogeneous, because in the end they're all still one hour of labor. You're sure you can't spot any fallacious logic here? Let me try! Food is NOT heterogeneous. 1 kg of apples is the SAME as 1 kg of oranges. They are all 1 kg of food. Whoa!
@mynameisalsojeff because "need" is not an objective, measurable trait. Everyone needs food, but what kinds and amounts cannot be objectively determined by a central planner. The same holds true for clothes, shelter, education, healthcare, etc. "Value" is not an objective trait either, but is based on individual, subjective preferences. A functioning price system organically conveys crucial information to both producers and consumers, allowing them to assess matters for themselves.
@kajmobile You're just not getting it. Because each laborer produces DIFFERENT things using DIFFERENT processes, and produce at DIFFERENT outputs within a unit of hours, each of these DIFFERENT processes has it's OWN, UNIQUE cost attached to it. You absolutely CAN NOT attach a universal value to an hour's worth of labor. It is completely impossible. Oh, and your idea that workers get a fixed salary based on supply and not their productivity shows you complete ignorance of the market system.
@sunnyvegas702 im not trying to dictate what people value. if u r interested in medicine and there r jobs available, u can become a doctor. if u r interested in mowing lawns and there r jobs available, u can become a landscaper. u can choose whatever job u r interested in so long as there r jobs available in that field. equal pay doesnt mean u r forced to do anything
@TheManiacalSatanist6 "If Producers have to buy tools that cost 4 hours to produce, but output a good that product that costs 5 hours to produce, under your system, the produces is running at a loss no matter what he's producing." u r not understanding how labor time works. read thru my earlier comments. or read the actual socialist calculation debate if u make something that takes 5 hours and u used a tool that took 4 hours, the cost would be 9, not 5 (assuming the tool can only be used once)
@TheManiacalSatanist6 if u make cars, u r only responsible for adding up ur own employee time. but that is not the final cost. u have to also add in the cost of machines, factory, gas, electric, phones, tools, material, etc the companies u buy those inputs from will be responsible for adding up their own labor and expenses. so they will just give u a price for the tools, electric, phones, etc so accounting will work exactly as it does now. the only difference is everyone gets the same salary
Economics sounds a lot like Religion the more similar you are the more likely you're going to hate each other. Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all share a common origin, but have fought each other more than anyone else. Socialist seem to dislike slightly different Socialist a lot more than Capitalist and Capitalist seem to dislike slightly different Capitalist a lot more than Socialists.
+ShamanMcLamie When it comes to economic schools, what matters is the correct ideas and methodologies. The two schools at the moment is neoclassical and keynesian school of economics. Most of keynesianism is part of neoclassical macroeconomics. Then there is Marxist school of economics with the most notable idea of Labor Theory of Value (LTV, Marx did not invent this) and Marx idea of surplus value. Then there is the Austrian school which rejects the LTV in favor of the Subjective Theory of Value. The Subjective Theory of Value arose from the marginal revolution, with Carl Menger being one of the three pioneers of marginalism, he lived in Austria and was the one who Ludwig von Mises got his inspiration from, making Menger the founder of the Austrian school of economics. There are a lot of other schools as well
@kajmobile "the cost of production is dictated by the total labor time it takes to make capital goods. it isnt dictated by the government" Who dictates the value of 1 unit of hours? The government does. So in effect, not only are they dictating everyone's value, which is tyrannical, they're trying to dictate everyone's costs.
@TheManiacalSatanist6 we can count the amount of hours people work. lol so we can accurately calculate the cost of everything produced. and we can accurately track what consumers r buying. so we can accurately calculate what products r viable and which ones r not and since we all live with the same laws of physics, 1 hour of labor time is equal to 1 hour of labor time no matter whether u r a doctor or a construction worker. so labor time can be applied universally to all fields of labor
@kajmobile "so accounting will work exactly as it does now. the only difference is everyone gets the same salary" Dude, just walk away. You're beating a dead horse, and your horse is literally dead. Accounting now depends upon MARKET PRICES that are created though the consumer's subjective value that is attached to the product. And if the economists thought that the Labor Time argument works, how come there are no economists in the media arguing for it? This position is dead. Just accept it.
He talks about true socialism in Russia 1917-1921 without historical impacts on economy?1914-1918 WW1 had devestating impact on Russias eceonomy and powers shifted in 1917 with revolution and then The Russian Civil War (7 November (25 October) 1917 - October 1922 where Russia fought in itself and with other countries(expanded). And all that time people lost food and clothes in benefit of WAR! He says it like true socialism created problem where people starved and burned furniture! correct me :)
@TheManiacalSatanist6 "In attempting to dictate the value of 1 unit of hours, you're also attempting to dictate the cost of production." the cost of production is dictated by the total labor time it takes to make capital goods. it isnt dictated by the government if it takes 1000 labor hours to make a tractor, 1000 will be its price. govt doesnt dictate its price. the efficiency of manufacturers will dictate its price
@Xasew did u even read my comment to what he said about labor time? he says it wont work because u cant compare the labor of cashiers and scientists. but u dont need to in order to manage an economy! 1 hour = 1 hour regardless of profession. consumers DONT CARE what professions created the product they r buying and he says u cant price capital goods. y cant a company that makes capital goods add up their labor time!?! it's an absurd claim his argument against labor time makes no sense
it's about caring for others, or common good rather than being egoist. so it's practical philosophical problem. Nietzscheanism/egocentricism/luciferianism are very efficient at bringing profit and actually you bring losses if you want to play other way in enviroment where other transcendents thrugh rules by those forceful philosophies. Intention (which is learned) is more important than system (who also teaches).
@sunnyvegas702 "no one other than the person that can do the labor will label how much they will work for" if u arent willing to work for $127k per year, u can move to another country and make less. . "You can't force a doctor to be paid the same as a lawnmower because the doctor won't work for it" doctors will work for $127k if that is the job they want to do. if they would rather mow lawns, they wont become a doctor
@kajmobile And who's paying the final costs? Under your system, the only person who could is the government, but if everyone makes the same salary in an hour's time, what incentive is there to actually be productive? We see this all the time in public employees. Garbage men who don't take out the trash, mailmen who don't run on time, road workers just standing around talking instead of getting the job done. People are NOT equal. They can never BE equal. You're just deluding yourself.
@TheManiacalSatanist6 "And who's paying the final costs?" consumers. u use ur income to buy whatever u want just like u do now. "what incentive is there to actually be productive?" the same as there is now: to have a job. u will get paid $127k per year. that is a pretty large incentive.
not surprisingly, u r contradicting yourslef in a distance of 2 sentences and do not notice that, so I think I will pass by your judgment, just like I pass by any other trolng nutcase that tries to waste my time
@TheManiacalSatanist6 "It has been proven, beyond all reasonable doubts, that the only viable method of exchange and calculation are those with private property" if u actually read the socialist calculation debate, the conclusion held among professional economists was that Lange's labor time system would be more effective than a free market hayek conceded that socialist calculation was possible so he tried a different tactic by saying u would have an information problem which is as groundless
@TheManiacalSatanist6 "But who's buying the tools? If the producer is buying them, he's losing money in this instance" im not sure y this is not getting thru if u r the manager of a factory and have an employee cost of $4 and a tool cost of $5 and r selling ur product for $9, how is it that u think ur factory is losing money? ur revenue is covering cost. u r not losing money. $9 EQUALS $9
@sunnyvegas702 the socialist system proposed by Lange was called market socialism because it used a market to determine production and allocate goods and services. businesses would be independently run and subjected to market demand. if the company could not sell what it produces at whatever the cost was, it would be shut down just like a privately owned company. it would achieve the pareto efficiency that a free market would achieve under perfect competition. that is y socialism is superior
u get paid to work. some people, who work as authors, would get paid to write. this isnt rocket science. i dont understand y u think paying people based on work means an end to books.
i advocate markets 4 goods and services. if a dr didnt want 2 pay $15 4 some1 2 spend 15 minutes shining his shoes he is free not 2 buy that service but u have 2 understand how i want income 2 be allocated. since the only economic reason 4 paying 1 person more than another is 2 get them 2 do hard work, income differences should be limited 2 just what is necessary 2 get people 2 work hard. u dont need to pay people any more than 4 times more 2 get them to do hard jobs like medicine.
@ngupowered the technology u mention wont be available in our lifetimes and is several centuries away. so i think it is pointless to talk about a future society where we no longer have to ration resources i think all workers should go on strike until all biz is publicly owned and all income is allocated fairly (eg every1 earns $115k-$460k) and the week is reduced to 20 hours. raising the minimum wage to $115k for working part-time is something enough workers will want to strike for
@sunnyvegas702 how u value people has nothing to do with worker pay. if u and i both work hard for 8 hours, we should both get the same pay regardless of what u think of me im not sure how u think that means we r going to use homeless people as doctors u need to be licensed in order to be a doctor. equal pay has nothing to do with requiring qualification to do certain jobs
@TheManiacalSatanist6 "your idea that workers get a fixed salary based on supply and not their productivity shows you complete ignorance of the market system." that is how the market works, based on supply and demand. u think everyone works off of commission? they dont. most workers r paid a salary
@sunnyvegas702 yes the market is dynamic. and the managers of companies have to constantly adjust to evolving market conditions. having everyone paid equally doesnt prevent u from developing efficiencies. u want to produce what people want for the least amount of labor. that is how u create efficiency getting some poor desperate worker to take a pay cut so u can lower ur price is not creating efficiency
@kajmobile A coin and pendant are homogeneous goods?! You're hilarious. What does the amount of labor have to do with whether apples and steaks are homogeneous or not? Absolutely nothing. Do you even know what homogeneous means? And you manage to conflate costs and prices. Great job.
@TheManiacalSatanist6 the tools and machines that laborers use require labor to make, so their cost is part of the final price of goods and services very few jobs r tied directly to production. most workers get a fixed salary based on their supply not on their productivity if workers produce less for a given hour of labor than their competitor the price of their goods will be higher. so they either pick up their productivity or they will be out of a job labor time is a more rational system
@TheManiacalSatanist6 "how come there are no economists in the media arguing for it?" in the US? the US is the most ideologically driven country in the world. capitalism is a religion here. u cant get on mainstream tv to talk about ending capitalism. u think the billionaires that own those companies want to give a platform to socialists? they used to lock u up if u were a socialist. u cant get citizenship here if u were a member of the US socialist party
@sunnyvegas702 "you can't do that cuz you would be limited to 127k investments" cant do what? the economy doesnt need ur million to invest. the $127k is based on using 15% of GDP towards investment which is allocated to banks which they use to invest in viable ideas. if Biz B can do what Biz A does for less, their price will be lower which will drive Biz A out of business. there will still be competition
Except that they aren't at all. Lies, corruption and bad governance in a private firm will lead to that firm going bankrupt. They will lose resources to competitors.
@kajmobile Continued: It has been proven, beyond all reasonable doubts, that the only viable method of exchange and calculation are those with private property in the means of production, and those who let the people's individual subjective values create the price system through supply and demand. This is the only proven system that creates capital for everyone involved. I'd suggest you do some better research into market behavior before screaming that a socialist economy is better.
@sunnyvegas702 "since you can't predict sales, you can't predict how to organize and pay ppl in a company" if u took the time to get a business education u would learn that is not true. managers r able to organize companies even though they cannot predict sales with 100% certainty. both apple and microsoft r able to organize their companies. they have been around for a long time . "You can't dictate an economy" i dont advocate a dictatorship. companies run on their own.
@Xasew assuming they use the same molding process, YES an ounce of silver molded into a pendant is EXACTLY the same as an ounce of silver molded into a coin comparing an apple to a steak, just because we call them food, is not the same as comparing an hour of labor to another hour of labor. if it takes a different amount of labor to make an apple than a steak, they will have different prices ALL production comes from labor, so the cost of everything is the amount of our labor used
@sunnyvegas702 "all costs come from PEOPLE'S perception in what they value" u can perceive the value of a rolls royce to be $500 all you want. it is not going to change the fact that it costs $350,000 ur perception of value has no impact on cost
@kajmobile Having a job is not the only incentive to be productive. You also have to consider the possibility of expanding your horizons and being able to work your way up in the company (or wherever you're working), which means PAY RAISES, which means NO EQUAL INCOME. Please stop spewing your idiocy regarding human nature.
"you are assuming the GDP would remain the same after you put in your system...which it would not" u r incredibly gullible if u think worker productivity would go down if they got paid more and that the only way for the economy to work is if most workers remained broke. "illustrate a wider point" and my response was 2 illustrate my wider point that only in capitalism do u have people wasting their lives in pointless jobs like shoe shining. all menial jobs would be automated.
not surprisingly, u r misinformed as well. LTV does not mean only labor is used in production. u need resources as well. u need to get better informed as to how the world works. people r taking advantage of your ignorance.
The $65 hourly wage is not arbitrary. it is total GDP divided by total hours worked. it is the amount u would get paid if income was allocated equally. u r stuck in the medieval era. nobody needs to waste their life shining another person's shoes. machines should do that. 55% of the jobs we do can be automated with existing technology. capitalism is incredibly inefficient.
@TheManiacalSatanist6 "People are NOT equal. They can never BE equal. You're just deluding yourself." democracy is about treating people equally. u dont get more votes or more wealth or better treatment under the law because ur good looking or white or come from the right family or connected or healthy or smart. if u think all the people that make the same income as u do today r exact equals to u, u r just deluding urself
@kajmobile And how much is 127k worth in your system? It's worth the same as 33k in the current system. This false dichotomy you're trying to create between your system's pay and the current system's is just a total PHAIL on every front. 127k is only worth a lot more than 33k if there are people making 33k but very few making 127k. AGAIN! Individual subjective value. Your arguments are simply silly. Just walk away and save whatever face you have left.
@sunnyvegas702 paying u $127k is not dictating u have to spend $127k. u can spend or save as much of that as u want. paying someone $1 or $2 more is pointless
@kajmobile Whether consumers care or not is completely irrelevant. Do you not understand that you can't add up heteregenous units? The results will be meaningless. The company that makes capital goods also uses capital goods. And those capital goods were made with the help of capital goods. And the production of those capital goods also required capital goods and it's a long regression all the way back to the stone age. And hey, I guess the value of raw land is zero(no labor required!)...
@Xasew "A coin and pendant are homogeneous goods?! Do you even know what homogeneous means?" it means "composed of parts or elements that are all of the same kind". so yes a 1 ounce silver coin and a 1 ounce silver pendant r homogeneous u might wanna learn about business and the terms u use before u debate about them ur understanding of homogeneous is just as wrong as ur claim that products contain labor dating back to the stone age. u and salerno r both clueless
@sunnyvegas702 regulation wont fix anything. and more competing wont ever create an economy where every worker earns $127k and is wealthy. that is y i advocate replacing capitalism with market socialism in market socialism the guy who made the magnetic power cord and other people like him will still continue to work and still continue to develop new ideas
@TheManiacalSatanist6 in a humane, civilized, democratic society 1 hour of a construction worker's labor is equal to1 hour of a surgeon's labor. people r not treated like heads of cattle. but the consumer still has full control over how they value what is produced because they decide what they buy and dont buy and just because people produce different things using different tools, that doesnt mean we somehow lose the ability to count the amount of hours people work! that makes no sense
@TheManiacalSatanist6 "We see this all the time in public employees. Garbage men who don't take out the trash, mailmen who don't run on time" my garbage is ALWAYS taken. and the US post office is more reliable than private companies. they r near perfect. ive never had them lose any mail on me.
You don't argue by saying that you argue, you assert - baselessly. There are no market monopolies. "worker cooperatives or WSDE's, in Germany" - never heard of it, google doesn't see it and I live like 50 km from Germany :D Don't know if it's new or old fascist structure, frankly don't care. It's kind of frustrating that you, spoiled by capitalism Amercan kids want to teach me about socialism. Dude, I'm 30 Iv'e seen it go and come back first hand USSR to EU - it sucks, and it is huge state CP.
Economys do not have an inherent need for a pricing system, and saying otherwise is myopic. Why do capitalists believe only this particular form of supply and demand evaluation will work? Contradictions abound. Take the NASDAQ, as an example: Replace their dollar sign evaluations with some other arbitrary value, and what are you left with?
...and finally, socialists would clearly be able to know exactly what to produce. since everything is priced in labor time, the total price of everything produced would be paid out in total income so that demand equals supply. socialists would then just produce whatever it is that people buy. this guy needs to get a little more educated on what socialism is and how it works!!
@kajmobile Finally, to deal the final deathblow to this silly line of argumentation, you want the government to apply a universal value on a unit of hours for labor. Well, how is the government going to know exactly how to value 1 unit of hours in the Labor Force? In attempting to dictate the value of 1 unit of hours, you're also attempting to dictate the cost of production. This is completely impossible, and I wouldn't take anyone who suggested this seriously. Your argument is dead. NEXT!!!!
@Xasew and when u price things in labor time, u can account for ALL the labor that went into everything including capital goods!! if every company priced their goods and services in labor time, from miners to capital goods manufacturers to utilities to finished goods and services, EVERY SINGLE COMPANY, u will know the exact amount of total labor that went into each thing we produce this guy doesnt understand business
My heart sinks whenever Joe's jokes don't go over.
Everyone, take a look in the comments section at the dialogue between me and kajmobile. Thumb this post up if you think I completely destroyed him, or thumb it down if you think I lost.
"Top-down state communism or Leninism requires calculation."
Right, but other forms of socialism just squander resources in contempt of such petty things like resorces preservation.
Very good point indeed :D
Do you know the difference between money and currency?
@kajmobile You're not getting it. The number of hours is irrelevant. Each laborer produces different goods using different tools and processes. Because each of these processes require different things, each of these processes has it's own cost. Because of this, labor hours can NOT be used to calculate the cost of production because different laborers produce more/less within an hour. Attempting to put a universal price tag on an hour of labor, no matter what it is, is going to completely fail.
Very interesting and thoughtful lecture.
@dysesthesiaAethiopi1
Actually, Mr. Rockwell doesn't work with the Koch brothers. The last time I checked the LvMi is pretty much black marked by them. You won't find any LvMi being a guest at a Cato Institute meeting any time soon.
ALL monetary economic activity requires calculation. However, monopolies act within a market system that gives them prices and allows for them to calculate, unlike where there is only one economic agent.
Mises talks about the kind of "socialism" you refer to in his book Socialism, and defines it as syndicalism to distinguish it from what most people mean by socialism (public ownership of the means of production). It doesn't suffer from the calculation problem, but has other flaws.
Need is always relative to a goal. People do not have needs: instead, there are things the need to be done/obtained in order for other things to be done/obtained.
@Xasew if u dig 1 hole by hand for 5 hours, the cost is 5 hours.
if u dug a second hole for 5 hours with a bulldozer, the cost would be 5 hours plus the time it took to make the bulldozer times whatever percentage 5 hours consumes of the bulldozers lifespan
if it takes 10k hours to make a bulldozer and it will last 500 hours of use, the cost of using that bulldozer for 5 hours is 100 labor hours
so the second hole costs 105 labor hours
this is the same accounting system every biz today uses
Watching the Austrian School grow and attract haters from the Keynesian/Socialist thought is hilarious, even though the Keynesian ideas have been tried and have utterly failed.
Salerno also gave a lecture concerning the death of Macroeconomics, which was 100% correct. Macroeconomic thought is dying out, even in the mainstream circles. The global economic crisis is showing the people that the Macroeconomists/Socialists have absolutely no clue what they're talking about.
It strikes me that Joe has left out something very important when talking about markets and prices. That being that theres many different prices for the "same" object. Different businesses are able to afford different amounts of a good at different prices. That a price thats cheap for one firm can be too expensive for another firm which may seek an alternative or wait for the price to fall etc. And its these constant adjustments by all individuals that make a market(consumers see things as cheap
"Do you think someone in your system would give me 17,000 hours of labor time for my book?"
if a publisher thought they could successfully sell enough copies of the book u wrote, then yes a publisher would pay u to write it. that is how publishing works.
@PanzerDivisionBOM ur comment wasnt clear. i thought u were referring to an article that salerno wrote. lol
the economic calculation article written by mises was debunked by economists in the subsequent "economic calculation debate."
hayek later tried to salvage mises's argument by saying that although calculation is possible in a socialist economy, the information was too hard to gather which is ridiculous and no economist takes seriously.
"...a saint, mother Theresa or an evil guy like stalin..." Mother Theresa was an evil person. Maybe not quite as bad as Stalin, but at least in one aspect was she more dangerous: she was a religious lunatic and a zealot. She was a friend of suffering, not of the suffering.
@mynameisalsojeff did you listen to the video. there are no price signals to calculate. its like stabbing in a dark. needs are not ends in themselves. a single end has an infinite amount of means.
Why is there so much animosity between Cato/Mises?
@kajmobile "if u make something that takes 5 hours and u used a tool that took 4 hours, the cost would be 9, not 5 (assuming the tool can only be used once)"
But who's buying the tools? If the producer is buying them, he's losing money in this instance, and if the government is buying them, EVERYONE is losing because the government has to run a deficit in order to sustain inefficient means of production with relation to cost.
What you're talking about is just silly.
@kajmobile
Let's say current production requires capital goods. The production of those capital goods required other capital goods in the past. The production of these capital goods also required capital goods. And so on, until you go temporally backwards enough to reach a point where no capital goods are required(e.g. the stone age). That's how far back you would have to go in history to do your neat calculations. Very useful.
@sunnyvegas702 all production comes from labor. so the cost of anything produced is the amount of labor hours it consumed of the total labor hours we are able to work.
since we both abide by the same laws of physics, 1 hour of my labor time is exactly equal to 1 hour of your labor time regardless of how u think u perceive yourself
@kajmobile
Are you going to answer my argument at some point? After painting yourself into an intellectual corner you fail to understand my point or just dance around the issue on purpose. Are you going to deny that production takes time? And if you don't deny this, then how can you not realize that you have to go backwards temporally to do your calculations?
@TheManiacalSatanist6 Funny thing is he's right. I used to live in San Fransisco for some time. He hit the nail right on the head. And these problems STILL occur in smaller towns and communities. Not just big cities.
@kajmobile
Homogeneous means something else in economics. We're not talking about physics or chemistry.
@Xasew
That's what happens if you try to add up the capital goods into the calculation. But if you don't, then it will lead to absurdities: Two identical ditches will have completely different prices if the other one's done with a bulldozer and the other one with bare hands.
@kajmobile
47:45
Did you even watch the video?
Great lecture, but I think rivers of lemonade and all, there are some fascinating and important moments in Fourier, particularly his critique of repressive cultural aspects of society, such as patriarchal ones, see e.g., The History Guide, Lecture 21, "The Utopian Socialists: Charles Fourier" (online).
@TheManiacalSatanist6 i live in new york. i always get my mail and my garbage is always taken out
@TheManiacalSatanist6 "Accounting now depends upon MARKET PRICES"
i understand how business currently works. the point i was making is that a business on its financials and in determining prices needs to add its direct labor costs and its indirect expenses, some of which r depreciated. in a labor time system, businesses will continue to do the exact same thing: adding their direct labor costs plus its indirect expenses, some of which r depreciated.
@sunnyvegas702 u can organize companies because u can predict sales to some degree. and people will work at companies that produce the things people r buying.
consumer purchases dictate where u can work.
if ur sales prediction turned out wrong and revenue is less than expenses, the company will get shut down and the employees will have to work at another company that is producing things people r buying
@kajmobile Continued:
Not only that, but the labor hours formula completely destroys the exchange system. If Producers have to buy tools that cost 4 hours to produce, but output a good that product that costs 5 hours to produce, under your system, the produces is running at a loss no matter what he's producing. He could be producing medical innovations. So are you going to bail him out? But how are you going to do that when the government has no capital because the PEOPLE have no capital?
@kajmobile Hayek conceded a lot of things, and I don't consider Hayek to be a real supporter of the Free-Market, so referencing him in this conversation is moot. If the Labor Time system was truly better and had that many economists swinging to it, we'd have the system already in place. But we don't. So somewhere along the line, assuming that professional economists thought the Labor Time system was better to begin with, discarded this opinion at one point. It's not a valid position anymore.
@PanzerDivisionBOM "Your position is predicted and addressed in the article"
what article?
his critique of labor time in this talk is wrong. he says it wont work because u cant compare the labor of cashiers and scientists. but u dont need to in order to manage an economy. 1hour = 1hour regardless of profession. consumers dont care what professions created the product
and he says u cant price capital goods. y cant a company that makes capital goods add up their labor time? it's an absurd claim
there r no contradictions. u r passing because u have no idea what u r talking about or what LTV is.
u mistakenly thought LTV means only labor is used in production
@kajmobile So is an hour of a Brain-Surgeon's time worth an hour of a construction worker's time? Of course not. Labor is a heterogeneous commodity that has to be bought within the market place. Since each laborer *in different fields of labor* produce different things, and have differing processes and tools of production that must be used in the production of a good or service, it is completely impossible to calculate the cost of production using labor hours.
@Xasew labor is NOT heterogeneous.1 hour of sweeping the floor is the SAME as 1 hour of cleaning a window or designing a building. they are ALL 1 hour of labor
ALL production comes from labor. so the cost of anything is how much of our total labor it took to produce
if u mold an ounce of silver into a square or a cross or a sphere, they do not become heterogeneous. they r all still an ounce of silver
saying product A took 1200 hours to make and product B took 50 hours is NOT meaningless!
@kajmobile "but the consumer still has full control over how they value what is produced because they decide what they buy and dont buy"
That doesn't matter. If the cost of production can't be accurately calculated, then even if consumers are buying, then chances are you're losing money per good sold, because you couldn't accurately calculate the cost of production. And since labor hours can't be universally applied to all fields of labor, it is impossible to calculate the costs.
Cont.
@TheManiacalSatanist6 in ur car factory, the final cost of the cars will be ur factory employee time plus all the expenses incurred from buying tools, machines, gas, electric, water, materials, etc.
business from an accounting standpoint will work exactly the same as they do now. they would follow all of the same accounting rules and depreciation schedules. the only difference is employee compensation is fixed, they r not determined by the market.
@TheManiacalSatanist6 u r not understanding the conversation. perhaps read my earlier comments.
"Because each laborer produces DIFFERENT things using DIFFERENT processes, and produce at DIFFERENT outputs within a unit of hours, each of these DIFFERENT processes has it's OWN, UNIQUE cost attached to it."
that is true. each thing we produce requires different amounts of labor. so they will have different prices. the price is TOTAL labor including the labor of all inputs (tools, material, etc)
It depends on how you define "working". Austro-Libertarians would say that government typically "works" exactly as it was intended - that is, to centralize power in the hands of a few egomaniacs, who use the guns and jails of the State to impose their will (or majority opinion) on the populace. If you define "working" as being an engine of economic growth, truth, justice, etc. then the answer is "no" - govt. never achieves these ends, as it is based on coercion and one-size-fits-all policies.
@Xasew production does take time. that is y the only rational way to measure production cost is to measure how much labor time it took
u dont pay the earth when u take its gold, u dont pay the forest when u take its wood. u pay people for their labor time only
so the cost of everything produced is the total labor time it took to make that good or service and the depreciated portion of all the labor time it took to make the tools, machines, materials used in its production
u r misinformed. classical economics and its LTV are not false
it is just not useful in describing individual agents in a market
but value is governed by how much labor was used. if u try to sell something for more than the amount of labor that was used to make that something, people wont buy. they will just hire the labor and make it themselves.
@dysesthesiaAethiopi1 How do you have the first comment. You have to be a troll, there's no way you just stumbled in here.
@kajmobile
So a silver coin and pendant are homogeneous goods as long as they both weigh 1 ounce? What an absurd position to take.
So you're arguing that every hour of labor is homogeneous, because in the end they're all still one hour of labor. You're sure you can't spot any fallacious logic here?
Let me try! Food is NOT heterogeneous. 1 kg of apples is the SAME as 1 kg of oranges. They are all 1 kg of food.
Whoa!
@mynameisalsojeff because "need" is not an objective, measurable trait. Everyone needs food, but what kinds and amounts cannot be objectively determined by a central planner. The same holds true for clothes, shelter, education, healthcare, etc. "Value" is not an objective trait either, but is based on individual, subjective preferences. A functioning price system organically conveys crucial information to both producers and consumers, allowing them to assess matters for themselves.
@kajmobile You're just not getting it. Because each laborer produces DIFFERENT things using DIFFERENT processes, and produce at DIFFERENT outputs within a unit of hours, each of these DIFFERENT processes has it's OWN, UNIQUE cost attached to it. You absolutely CAN NOT attach a universal value to an hour's worth of labor. It is completely impossible. Oh, and your idea that workers get a fixed salary based on supply and not their productivity shows you complete ignorance of the market system.
@sunnyvegas702 im not trying to dictate what people value. if u r interested in medicine and there r jobs available, u can become a doctor. if u r interested in mowing lawns and there r jobs available, u can become a landscaper.
u can choose whatever job u r interested in so long as there r jobs available in that field.
equal pay doesnt mean u r forced to do anything
@TheManiacalSatanist6 "If Producers have to buy tools that cost 4 hours to produce, but output a good that product that costs 5 hours to produce, under your system, the produces is running at a loss no matter what he's producing."
u r not understanding how labor time works. read thru my earlier comments. or read the actual socialist calculation debate
if u make something that takes 5 hours and u used a tool that took 4 hours, the cost would be 9, not 5 (assuming the tool can only be used once)
@TheManiacalSatanist6 if u make cars, u r only responsible for adding up ur own employee time. but that is not the final cost. u have to also add in the cost of machines, factory, gas, electric, phones, tools, material, etc
the companies u buy those inputs from will be responsible for adding up their own labor and expenses. so they will just give u a price for the tools, electric, phones, etc
so accounting will work exactly as it does now. the only difference is everyone gets the same salary
Economics sounds a lot like Religion the more similar you are the more likely you're going to hate each other. Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all share a common origin, but have fought each other more than anyone else. Socialist seem to dislike slightly different Socialist a lot more than Capitalist and Capitalist seem to dislike slightly different Capitalist a lot more than Socialists.
+ShamanMcLamie When it comes to economic schools, what matters is the correct ideas and methodologies. The two schools at the moment is neoclassical and keynesian school of economics. Most of keynesianism is part of neoclassical macroeconomics. Then there is Marxist school of economics with the most notable idea of Labor Theory of Value (LTV, Marx did not invent this) and Marx idea of surplus value. Then there is the Austrian school which rejects the LTV in favor of the Subjective Theory of Value. The Subjective Theory of Value arose from the marginal revolution, with Carl Menger being one of the three pioneers of marginalism, he lived in Austria and was the one who Ludwig von Mises got his inspiration from, making Menger the founder of the Austrian school of economics.
There are a lot of other schools as well
@kajmobile "the cost of production is dictated by the total labor time it takes to make capital goods. it isnt dictated by the government"
Who dictates the value of 1 unit of hours? The government does. So in effect, not only are they dictating everyone's value, which is tyrannical, they're trying to dictate everyone's costs.
@TheManiacalSatanist6 we can count the amount of hours people work. lol
so we can accurately calculate the cost of everything produced. and we can accurately track what consumers r buying. so we can accurately calculate what products r viable and which ones r not
and since we all live with the same laws of physics, 1 hour of labor time is equal to 1 hour of labor time no matter whether u r a doctor or a construction worker. so labor time can be applied universally to all fields of labor
@kajmobile "so accounting will work exactly as it does now. the only difference is everyone gets the same salary"
Dude, just walk away. You're beating a dead horse, and your horse is literally dead. Accounting now depends upon MARKET PRICES that are created though the consumer's subjective value that is attached to the product. And if the economists thought that the Labor Time argument works, how come there are no economists in the media arguing for it?
This position is dead. Just accept it.
He talks about true socialism in Russia 1917-1921 without historical impacts on economy?1914-1918 WW1 had devestating impact on Russias eceonomy and powers shifted in 1917 with revolution and then The Russian Civil War (7 November (25 October) 1917 - October 1922 where Russia fought in itself and with other countries(expanded). And all that time people lost food and clothes in benefit of WAR! He says it like true socialism created problem where people starved and burned furniture! correct me :)
@TheManiacalSatanist6 "In attempting to dictate the value of 1 unit of hours, you're also attempting to dictate the cost of production."
the cost of production is dictated by the total labor time it takes to make capital goods. it isnt dictated by the government
if it takes 1000 labor hours to make a tractor, 1000 will be its price. govt doesnt dictate its price. the efficiency of manufacturers will dictate its price
@Xasew did u even read my comment to what he said about labor time?
he says it wont work because u cant compare the labor of cashiers and scientists. but u dont need to in order to manage an economy! 1 hour = 1 hour regardless of profession. consumers DONT CARE what professions created the product they r buying
and he says u cant price capital goods. y cant a company that makes capital goods add up their labor time!?! it's an absurd claim
his argument against labor time makes no sense
it's about caring for others, or common good rather than being egoist. so it's practical philosophical problem. Nietzscheanism/egocentricism/luciferianism are very efficient at bringing profit and actually you bring losses if you want to play other way in enviroment where other transcendents thrugh rules by those forceful philosophies.
Intention (which is learned) is more important than system (who also teaches).
@sunnyvegas702 "no one other than the person that can do the labor will label how much they will work for"
if u arent willing to work for $127k per year, u can move to another country and make less.
.
"You can't force a doctor to be paid the same as a lawnmower because the doctor won't work for it"
doctors will work for $127k if that is the job they want to do. if they would rather mow lawns, they wont become a doctor
@kajmobile And who's paying the final costs? Under your system, the only person who could is the government, but if everyone makes the same salary in an hour's time, what incentive is there to actually be productive? We see this all the time in public employees. Garbage men who don't take out the trash, mailmen who don't run on time, road workers just standing around talking instead of getting the job done.
People are NOT equal. They can never BE equal. You're just deluding yourself.
Joe Salerno: THA BAUS!!
@TheManiacalSatanist6 "And who's paying the final costs?"
consumers. u use ur income to buy whatever u want just like u do now.
"what incentive is there to actually be productive?"
the same as there is now: to have a job. u will get paid $127k per year. that is a pretty large incentive.
not surprisingly, u r contradicting yourslef in a distance of 2 sentences and do not notice that, so I think I will pass by your judgment, just like I pass by any other trolng nutcase that tries to waste my time
@TheManiacalSatanist6 "It has been proven, beyond all reasonable doubts, that the only viable method of exchange and calculation are those with private property"
if u actually read the socialist calculation debate, the conclusion held among professional economists was that Lange's labor time system would be more effective than a free market
hayek conceded that socialist calculation was possible so he tried a different tactic by saying u would have an information problem which is as groundless
@TheManiacalSatanist6 "But who's buying the tools? If the producer is buying them, he's losing money in this instance"
im not sure y this is not getting thru
if u r the manager of a factory and have an employee cost of $4 and a tool cost of $5 and r selling ur product for $9, how is it that u think ur factory is losing money? ur revenue is covering cost. u r not losing money. $9 EQUALS $9
@dysesthesiaAethiopi1 Ironic that YOU'RE talking about contributions being worth less than toilet paper.
@sunnyvegas702 the socialist system proposed by Lange was called market socialism because it used a market to determine production and allocate goods and services.
businesses would be independently run and subjected to market demand. if the company could not sell what it produces at whatever the cost was, it would be shut down just like a privately owned company.
it would achieve the pareto efficiency that a free market would achieve under perfect competition. that is y socialism is superior
u get paid to work. some people, who work as authors, would get paid to write. this isnt rocket science.
i dont understand y u think paying people based on work means an end to books.
i advocate markets 4 goods and services. if a dr didnt want 2 pay $15 4 some1 2 spend 15 minutes shining his shoes he is free not 2 buy that service
but u have 2 understand how i want income 2 be allocated. since the only economic reason 4 paying 1 person more than another is 2 get them 2 do hard work, income differences should be limited 2 just what is necessary 2 get people 2 work hard.
u dont need to pay people any more than 4 times more 2 get them to do hard jobs like medicine.
@ngupowered the technology u mention wont be available in our lifetimes and is several centuries away. so i think it is pointless to talk about a future society where we no longer have to ration resources
i think all workers should go on strike until all biz is publicly owned and all income is allocated fairly (eg every1 earns $115k-$460k) and the week is reduced to 20 hours. raising the minimum wage to $115k for working part-time is something enough workers will want to strike for
@sunnyvegas702 how u value people has nothing to do with worker pay. if u and i both work hard for 8 hours, we should both get the same pay regardless of what u think of me
im not sure how u think that means we r going to use homeless people as doctors
u need to be licensed in order to be a doctor. equal pay has nothing to do with requiring qualification to do certain jobs
@TheManiacalSatanist6 "your idea that workers get a fixed salary based on supply and not their productivity shows you complete ignorance of the market system."
that is how the market works, based on supply and demand.
u think everyone works off of commission? they dont. most workers r paid a salary
@sunnyvegas702 yes the market is dynamic. and the managers of companies have to constantly adjust to evolving market conditions.
having everyone paid equally doesnt prevent u from developing efficiencies. u want to produce what people want for the least amount of labor. that is how u create efficiency
getting some poor desperate worker to take a pay cut so u can lower ur price is not creating efficiency
@kajmobile
A coin and pendant are homogeneous goods?! You're hilarious.
What does the amount of labor have to do with whether apples and steaks are homogeneous or not? Absolutely nothing. Do you even know what homogeneous means? And you manage to conflate costs and prices. Great job.
@TheManiacalSatanist6 the tools and machines that laborers use require labor to make, so their cost is part of the final price of goods and services
very few jobs r tied directly to production. most workers get a fixed salary based on their supply not on their productivity
if workers produce less for a given hour of labor than their competitor the price of their goods will be higher. so they either pick up their productivity or they will be out of a job
labor time is a more rational system
@TheManiacalSatanist6 "how come there are no economists in the media arguing for it?"
in the US? the US is the most ideologically driven country in the world. capitalism is a religion here. u cant get on mainstream tv to talk about ending capitalism. u think the billionaires that own those companies want to give a platform to socialists?
they used to lock u up if u were a socialist. u cant get citizenship here if u were a member of the US socialist party
@sunnyvegas702 "you can't do that cuz you would be limited to 127k investments"
cant do what?
the economy doesnt need ur million to invest. the $127k is based on using 15% of GDP towards investment which is allocated to banks which they use to invest in viable ideas.
if Biz B can do what Biz A does for less, their price will be lower which will drive Biz A out of business. there will still be competition
Except that they aren't at all.
Lies, corruption and bad governance in a private firm will lead to that firm going bankrupt.
They will lose resources to competitors.
The point is that within that historical context socialism was leading to these stupid decisions being made, hence the NEP.
@kajmobile Continued:
It has been proven, beyond all reasonable doubts, that the only viable method of exchange and calculation are those with private property in the means of production, and those who let the people's individual subjective values create the price system through supply and demand. This is the only proven system that creates capital for everyone involved.
I'd suggest you do some better research into market behavior before screaming that a socialist economy is better.
@Moragauth lol! 5 star comment man
@sunnyvegas702 "since you can't predict sales, you can't predict how to organize and pay ppl in a company"
if u took the time to get a business education u would learn that is not true. managers r able to organize companies even though they cannot predict sales with 100% certainty.
both apple and microsoft r able to organize their companies. they have been around for a long time
.
"You can't dictate an economy"
i dont advocate a dictatorship. companies run on their own.
@Xasew assuming they use the same molding process, YES an ounce of silver molded into a pendant is EXACTLY the same as an ounce of silver molded into a coin
comparing an apple to a steak, just because we call them food, is not the same as comparing an hour of labor to another hour of labor. if it takes a different amount of labor to make an apple than a steak, they will have different prices
ALL production comes from labor, so the cost of everything is the amount of our labor used
@sunnyvegas702 "all costs come from PEOPLE'S perception in what they value"
u can perceive the value of a rolls royce to be $500 all you want. it is not going to change the fact that it costs $350,000
ur perception of value has no impact on cost
Labour does not come in "amounts".
@kajmobile Having a job is not the only incentive to be productive. You also have to consider the possibility of expanding your horizons and being able to work your way up in the company (or wherever you're working), which means PAY RAISES, which means NO EQUAL INCOME.
Please stop spewing your idiocy regarding human nature.
"you are assuming the GDP would remain the same after you put in your system...which it would not"
u r incredibly gullible if u think worker productivity would go down if they got paid more and that the only way for the economy to work is if most workers remained broke.
"illustrate a wider point"
and my response was 2 illustrate my wider point that only in capitalism do u have people wasting their lives in pointless jobs like shoe shining. all menial jobs would be automated.
not surprisingly, u r misinformed as well. LTV does not mean only labor is used in production. u need resources as well.
u need to get better informed as to how the world works. people r taking advantage of your ignorance.
The $65 hourly wage is not arbitrary. it is total GDP divided by total hours worked. it is the amount u would get paid if income was allocated equally.
u r stuck in the medieval era. nobody needs to waste their life shining another person's shoes. machines should do that. 55% of the jobs we do can be automated with existing technology. capitalism is incredibly inefficient.
@TheManiacalSatanist6 "People are NOT equal. They can never BE equal. You're just deluding yourself."
democracy is about treating people equally. u dont get more votes or more wealth or better treatment under the law because ur good looking or white or come from the right family or connected or healthy or smart.
if u think all the people that make the same income as u do today r exact equals to u, u r just deluding urself
@kajmobile And how much is 127k worth in your system? It's worth the same as 33k in the current system. This false dichotomy you're trying to create between your system's pay and the current system's is just a total PHAIL on every front. 127k is only worth a lot more than 33k if there are people making 33k but very few making 127k. AGAIN! Individual subjective value.
Your arguments are simply silly. Just walk away and save whatever face you have left.
@sunnyvegas702 paying u $127k is not dictating u have to spend $127k. u can spend or save as much of that as u want.
paying someone $1 or $2 more is pointless
@kajmobile
Whether consumers care or not is completely irrelevant. Do you not understand that you can't add up heteregenous units? The results will be meaningless.
The company that makes capital goods also uses capital goods. And those capital goods were made with the help of capital goods. And the production of those capital goods also required capital goods and it's a long regression all the way back to the stone age.
And hey, I guess the value of raw land is zero(no labor required!)...
@Xasew "A coin and pendant are homogeneous goods?! Do you even know what homogeneous means?"
it means "composed of parts or elements that are all of the same kind". so yes a 1 ounce silver coin and a 1 ounce silver pendant r homogeneous
u might wanna learn about business and the terms u use before u debate about them
ur understanding of homogeneous is just as wrong as ur claim that products contain labor dating back to the stone age.
u and salerno r both clueless
@sunnyvegas702 regulation wont fix anything. and more competing wont ever create an economy where every worker earns $127k and is wealthy. that is y i advocate replacing capitalism with market socialism
in market socialism the guy who made the magnetic power cord and other people like him will still continue to work and still continue to develop new ideas
@TheManiacalSatanist6 in a humane, civilized, democratic society 1 hour of a construction worker's labor is equal to1 hour of a surgeon's labor. people r not treated like heads of cattle.
but the consumer still has full control over how they value what is produced because they decide what they buy and dont buy
and just because people produce different things using different tools, that doesnt mean we somehow lose the ability to count the amount of hours people work! that makes no sense
@TheManiacalSatanist6 "We see this all the time in public employees. Garbage men who don't take out the trash, mailmen who don't run on time"
my garbage is ALWAYS taken. and the US post office is more reliable than private companies. they r near perfect. ive never had them lose any mail on me.
You don't argue by saying that you argue, you assert - baselessly.
There are no market monopolies.
"worker cooperatives or WSDE's, in Germany" - never heard of it, google doesn't see it and I live like 50 km from Germany :D Don't know if it's new or old fascist structure, frankly don't care. It's kind of frustrating that you, spoiled by capitalism Amercan kids want to teach me about socialism. Dude, I'm 30 Iv'e seen it go and come back first hand USSR to EU - it sucks, and it is huge state CP.
Economys do not have an inherent need for a pricing system, and saying otherwise is myopic. Why do capitalists believe only this particular form of supply and demand evaluation will work?
Contradictions abound. Take the NASDAQ, as an example: Replace their dollar sign evaluations with some other arbitrary value, and what are you left with?
...and finally, socialists would clearly be able to know exactly what to produce.
since everything is priced in labor time, the total price of everything produced would be paid out in total income so that demand equals supply.
socialists would then just produce whatever it is that people buy.
this guy needs to get a little more educated on what socialism is and how it works!!
@kajmobile Finally, to deal the final deathblow to this silly line of argumentation, you want the government to apply a universal value on a unit of hours for labor. Well, how is the government going to know exactly how to value 1 unit of hours in the Labor Force? In attempting to dictate the value of 1 unit of hours, you're also attempting to dictate the cost of production. This is completely impossible, and I wouldn't take anyone who suggested this seriously.
Your argument is dead. NEXT!!!!
@Xasew and when u price things in labor time, u can account for ALL the labor that went into everything including capital goods!!
if every company priced their goods and services in labor time, from miners to capital goods manufacturers to utilities to finished goods and services, EVERY SINGLE COMPANY, u will know the exact amount of total labor that went into each thing we produce
this guy doesnt understand business