Real Race Cars Have HUGE Brake Pedal Travel!... What?!
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- Following up from a comment on my Asetek Invicta pedals review, we take a look at real race car pedal cams to check their travel!
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Good video Karl, somehow I only see it now. The main reason, I think, as mentioned elsewhere in the comments, is the BIG leverage ratio that is effectively the braking system. Think about it, in a GT3 car, pressing ~100kg on the pedal, creates a force of 2000kg (!!) on the car! This is the 'crowbar' effect. You can lift a heavy crate with a crowbar, by moving the end of the bar 40cm, lifting the crate 1cm. The lifting force is 40x your hand force, but the crate lifts a 40x smaller distance.
If a caliper flexes 0.4mm at 100bar, which seems possible as hot aluminium isn't magically rigid, that, according to my spreadsheet (i.e. subject to flaws) is between 20 and 40mm pedal travel.
Fluid DOES compress. Each fluid has what is called a 'bulk modulus', the pressure required to reduce a volume of fluid to zero (if I recall correctly). Again here comes the crowbar effect: a tiny bit of fluid compression can be measurable pedal movement. In my spreadsheet predictions it is probably at least 5mm pedal travel.
Steel lines probably don't expand significantly, but the flexible hoses, even braided, might play a role. If the hose diameter is 5mm, but at 100bar pressure it is 5.1mm, depending on the length, say 25cm per corner, you have another 3mm pedal travel. Perhaps it expands to 5.5mm, then it is 15mm pedal travel.
Also, and this is from actual telemetry, a good portion of the pedal travel is from initial slack. If the pad to disc gap is 0.1mm (nothing!) then that is ~10mm pedal travel to overcome before you START to seat the pad on the disc. There typically is another bit of travel, again crowbar effect, as o rings move and expand maybe a tiny bit and the pad gets pushed flat on the disc. It can be a rule of thumb that maybe half the pedal travel is 'soft'.
Even if the pad to disc gap is zero, I think the master cylinders have to move a little bit, beyond the reservoir opening, before they build pressure. Even pedal box installations to a sheet metal car can cause significant flex at high pedal forces.
One big way to influence it is by changing master cylinder bore size. You're changing your crowbar ratio this way, but there is no free lunch. If you half your pedal travel, you need twice the pedal force. And while G forces might help a little, there are plenty of examples of drivers getting tired / sore, even in modern GT racing. This is probably one big reason. The driver might want a stiff pedal, but can't press the 250kg this pedal would require. So in order to survive the race, from a leg strength point of view, you increase the crowbar ratio at the cost of having more pedal travel.
I won't claim absolute knowledge here, but at least some of these things will be somewhat true I would think (hope :D)
Hi Niels, nice to have your input! Yes all valid and accurate points there mate :)
It's all about master cylinder bore size and pedal ratio! The bigger the bore the stiffer it will be with less travel, run a smaller bore and you will have the opposite effect! Once the bore size is sorted you can adjust the pivot point of the actual pedal arm to either increase or decrease the ratio of movement acting on the master cylinder
wow, didn't expect my comment to have a whole video made about it lol, great to see your eye is ok
Well I found it really interesting mate, well worth a chat about! :)
There's a saying in Germany: two fools, one thought. To quote myself: "There are enough videos with pedal cams around to prove that racecars still brake when easing off the pedal like the first hit I found called "What Is Trail Braking And Why Aren't You Doing It?""
There's even a video of Pedro De La Rosa in the 2000 Arrows F1 car at Spa where they show his footwork, and even in the F1 car there's a gigantic amount of pedal travel compared to what Im used to in my sim rig.
@Karl: It was about time that someone raises the question! 👍Imagine that instead of a 2 cm diameter brake piston you stick a knitting-needle-thin piston 4cm deep into the brake cylinder, that way moving about 40 mm^3 of brake fluid. Let two brake pads together have 150cm^2 contact surface with the brake disk. The 40mm^3 fluid displacement moves the two brake pads by 2.6 thousandths of a millimetre (10th of a human hair). This gives you 4 cm of pedal travel :-) The extreme example explains the principle. In practice, every race and hobby mechanic adjusts the pedal travel by selecting a brake cylinder of his choice (with different bore diameters). The Asetek boss can do the same with "his" Audi GT3 and Kart - he just doesn't say so. Just marketing bla bla, painstakingly trying to have an USP. Definitely not a revolution in simracing. Nils Heusinkveld had probably a good laugh. (Sad that Asetek tells stories that are not a lie but misleading by leaving out the truth.) What is preset on the Asetek Pedals due to its design (second stage hard, i.e. little to almost no pedal travel) can be set in the same way on almost every other hydraulic and LoadCell (sim racing) brake pedal, by using a softer spring/elastomer, and a very hard one (or just a metal or hard plastic sleeve to shorten the way.) Winning 0,2 - 0,4 seconds per hard braking due to shorter pedal travel is also utmost BS: Our brain is smarter than Asetek. It simply compensates the longer pedal travel by starting triggering your brake foot a bit earlier . The moment the brake effect sets fully in is exactly at the same position on track (brake marker) as you would have chosen it with the Asetek Pedals. There are other reasons why some Pros prefer a short pedal travel, while others prefer a long pedal travel (even among F1 pilots). It's all about personal preference how your brain 'computes' best a mix of movement and pressure. Yes, pressure needs and uses " muscle memory" Though movement needs muscles too, and triggers lots of other sensory nerves. So why not using both: movement and pressure. That's why most sim racers and real racers prefer to have both.
that makes sense but i am still skeptical thanks for the input !
I thought the same thing, it can be replicated on any load cell pedal or pressure sensor. Honestly only in Karl's review did I see doubts raised. Soon I will review it too and I will be able to talk about it with more knowledge.But having already reviewed the HPP and racewerk it is not easy to be surprised
Excellent comment! :D
Yeah makes sence. Im new to sim racing and i like 50 to 60% travel before hitting the stopper set to about 65% brake and have to really push to get to a point im sliding. So iv got 65% of easy fine tune brakes and something to help make sure i dont lockup. Plus feels nice compared to a solid break. I dont feel i could connect with them. More sensory in this way like was said. Think id prefer electric brake in a real car but be able tune it like the sim setup with a dampening stopper. Then that 1st 65% or however much you prefer is easy precise braking. No pedal play atall. EDIT, i think id still want a secondery mechanical brake pedal to the side as a backup.
Under G's might be a different story. But maybe just stiffer spring? I can understand f1 breaking not having play atall. But thats f1. There braking G's are nutz. But most cars i think id prefer that electric brake setup. Just change spring depending on braking G's. With electric you could also program it to account for pad disk space. So many options with electric brakes.
Well done lad, i find the people who know the most are the first to recognise they don't know everything. Again you show your character , thankyou for being straight talking.
Thanks mate! We can't all know everything thats for sure.
I took my Logitech G920 brake and removed the rubber piece then installed a longer but smaller diameter spring inside the stock spring. It came out of a Losi LMT remote control monster truck shock kit I had. The pressure gets harder the further I push and it actually bottoms out exactly at the sensor's maximum brake. There is no deadband at where it bottoms out. It seems perfect now. The travel is there but it works for my sim racing. I'm just getting to this pressure and travel, but I just replaced my G27 setup, which had long travel anyway.
that's a good idea!
I think you already answered your question why some racecar-drivers prefer a longer pedal-travel. With up to over 5G in an F1-car and 130 kg of needed pedal force a shorter pedal-travel makes sense, since they will make their body do most of the job that is tight to a harness, so less is more. In Rally-cars there are way lower pedal-forces needed and g-forces at play plus there are way more different grip-conditions while braking (and so g-forces applied) and very different wheel-vibrations as well depending on the surface. With a completely pressure-based brake-pedal they wouldn't know how much input they actually apply because it depends so much on the grip that can change in every corner. Rally-cars with so much guess-work and unexpected variables in braking-zones you need some brake-travel as a true objective indicator of your input, independent from the surface/grip-conditions, so seat of pants and how much g-force act as a brake-assist.
In a static sim-racing environment using a brake-pedal that gets stiff at around 80% is IMO better to avoid wheel-locking, but others are very quick with cheap Logitech-pedals, so it more depends what you are used to. With real driving dynamics especially in Rally this 'muscle-memory'-braking can't work. On a racetrack repetition is the key to consistency and when the grip changes, the vibrations of the car and how it behaves in one corner should tell you what to expect for the rest if the tarmac has similar grip.
I've even noticed with my shakers, GS-5 and G-Belt that I do not exactly know how hard I brake when everything is turned off while calibrating the pedals. With a real seat mover pushing you forward while braking this effect is probably even more present and certainly far far greater with real g-forces. Braking with muscle memory alone is a myth.
Yeah that all rings true with me mate for sure :)
Best comment so far, without a force pushing you forward you will never know if you have pressed the pedal enough or not
Whether it's realistic or not I feel like a harder pedal that's more dependent on muscle memory is probably a useful tool in sim specifically, to make up for the lack tangible G-Forces and body-roll that would help you judge braking in real life.
I just watched quite a number of pedal cam videos on youtube and interestingly a lot of pro cars have substantial pedal travel. One of the rate examples of a hard pedal is the F1 2022 AlphaTauri video where there is very little travel. Its also not just preload either because they seem to come off gradually for their trail braking throughout the movement and use smaller amounts of travel for less braking. It definitely goes against the Sim racing conventional wisdom of very hard pedals that don't move.
Personally I have always preferred a pedal that moves further because I find the combination of a loadcell and positional gives me a bit more control for trailing especially but squishy brakes in road cars has likely set me up for finding this more natural.
Something that is worth mentioning from my perspective is that formula cars do not rely as much in weight transfer, suspension preload and naturally their approach speed and apex speed is higher so they are not on the brakes as long. Aero also plays a role in a formula car’s deceleration- there is less suspension movement, less tyre deformation as usually formula cars the tyre is also part of your suspension because the chassis and suspension are already very stiff in their design so having a stiff pedal is a natural by product.
On the flip side a heavy touring car/GT3 has double the weight or more, has more suspension preload built into the car and has more tyre deformation due to weight transfer. This results in a longer braking zone because the car needs to slow further to reach the optimum apex speed with less aero assistance and more mechanical resistance. The longer braking zones result in longer braking intervals and a slower bleed off in pressure as you approach the minimum apex speed. A longer pedal allows for finer adjustments and modulation of pressure.
I have absolutely zero race car experience but before I had my kids I did many track days on my motorcycles over the years. From my limited knowledge, it's rider (driver) preference and the travel can be changed via cylinder diameter.
Preference goes for alot of things, everyone on the track that day would be running different tyre pressure, though one thing we all agreed on was having a cable clutch.
Yes, cylinder diameter and pedal ratio (pivot point) change the amount of fluid pushed.
Yeah a smaller MC will mean more travel, but I've never seen this much before... but then I'm no pro race car tuner?! lol
Dan Morad posted on his Discord a video of the travel from the pedals in the Merc GT3 he's driving and it also is way more than you'd expect. Here is what he said about it: "It’s the way I like it on the sim because I just find that driving with a load cell vs hydraulic pressure is completely different. But ultimately, I just like the control I have on the brake release. It isn’t a one shape fits all situation. You need to find what works for YOU. That’s the biggest problem with sim drivers looking to improve. You try to copy others. Use other methods as inspiration but it comes down to your personal feeling at the end of the day."
I’ve watched videos of people driving older f1 cars in expensive track days. They said that when sitting in the seat and pushing as hard as they could, they only pushed the pedal to like 75%. Then during their solo laps, they would do what they thought was the same as before while sitting and pushing as hard As they could, and the race instructor would tell them. Well, you only got the brake to 45% that’s pretty good for a non driver. Meanwhile the person thought they couldn’t possibly push any more.
For me it was so weird "learning to drive" in a Group A-spec car and then transitioning to a regular road car which had practically zero pedal travel...
I still am considering to modify my car to have a different pedalbox (and accompanying hardware) and have that travel again...
Hi Karl,
A long pedal could be many things,
Air in the system
Boiled fluid
Brake temp
Pad knock off
worn pads, a pedal will get worse during a race
The calliper could be flexing
Also worth noting you change master cylinder bore sizes to provide the correct feel, driver specific
this was part of my response but cut it all out to focus on sim vs real travel.
for example I know from experience, fitting 'big brakes' on an mx5 without changing the master cylinder (also has bias on mx5) and booster to suit, will result in a muddy pedal and brakes that are rear biased, people do this and feel its fine, but pair it with a correctly matched setup and the brakes are firm and crucially, don't need so much force/travel in pedal at speed as its no longer rear biased.
and also through experience, the day you spend setting up your new brakes, all freshly bled and nice chunky pads and rock hard pedal, is absolutely nothing like the drive home after a trackday with scrubbed tyres, low brake pads, possible moisture in fluid or even cooked fluid and a limp pedal that gives a sense of fear on road to how much travel it now has.
Yeah I covered all of those in the video bar MC size which IME still doesn't give that amount of travel.
It's weird as I actually didn't find any footage of short travel pedals at all?!
@@KarlGosling
As a race technician I can only speak for how the pedal feels in the garage, with new discs and pads and well bled system the pedal feels rock solid, after a 6h race with cooked brakes that same pedal is going through the bulkhead in order to get the car stopped, I think it’s something that’s gradually gets worse track/ rally dependant
I had a small master on my bike front brake, I had loads of movement, I found it makes trailing a lot easier
Great video my man. Interesting subject. Had me howling when you brought up brake pad drift. I remember my first van. The lovely old Austin Maestro. After a few months of ownership the wheel bearings started to go. I ignored it for so long that I had to pump the brakes many times to be able to brake each time when needed. Part of the reason it took me longer than I wanted when I did finally get round to replacing them, was I first got the wrong bearings not knowing Austin did 2 types, the more popular one with car type hubs and the lesser built one that I had that they used Maestro van specific hubs/bearings on. Just brought back a very cool memory thank you,
lol! Thats an excellent story! :D
Depending on the car and driver, it can be set for what is most accurate. More travel means more precise but slower. This could be suited to different cars more. Formula cars would have lass travel also due to limited space in the cockpit.
When I raced bikes, I had brakes issues once where brake lever touched the handlebars due to air in the system.
I would imagine (but don’t know) that the brake system is connected quite close to the pivot point of the pedal to increase pressure through leverage, at the cost of extra movement. I say “cost”, but I actually like having lots of pedal movement myself.
Yes I believe this is correct. There are two things I know of that increase pedal travel:
- increase pedal ratio to increase travel
- decrease master cylinder diameter to increase travel
Both of these things essentially change how much fluid you’re pushing for each millimetre of pedal travel.
Could well be a leverage choice for a softer pedal.
@@KarlGosling It's certainly possible but it is difficult to believe that so much pedal movement is any way beneficial. I'm thinking that those video examples are of drivers whose braking systems are on the limit, probably at boiling point, to be suffering so much fade.
This seems like most reasonable explanation.
Brake temperatures are only thing i can think off i.e fluid temp, pads and/or disc temps. Ive seen carbon ceramic equipped lambos pedals go to the floor on the initial application then when they warm up if you tap them too hard you lock up and spin.
I was wondering the same damn question and its because I was watching Daniel Morad the GT3 Driver and his pedal cam and was like WTF is going on? So im glad you asked the question.
Could it be a combination of factors. 1) Lightweight racing cars are more like a switch specifically designed with short travel and don't need a servo as the cars are circa 500kg whilst 2) cars that are converted for racing either have a servo as the mass of the car is over 1 ton and or there is a preference by the driver to have a greater range of travel (rally car)so that pedal feel and range of pedal feel is designed in.
The answer is very simple: it's just a matter of ratio between the master cylinder diameter and the brake piston diameter! For a given piston diameter if you install a larger master cylinder you get less travel. If you install a smaller master cylinder you get more pedal travel. Simple physics! Cheers!
It has to do with angular momentum. The brake disks are floating, and the calipers are fixed. When you are cornering, the floating disk is pushing back the brake pads. That will result in a gap that has to be overcome.
The amount of pedal travel prior to the pad hitting the disc is adjustable, once the pads hit the disk then there is very little movement, but prior to engaging it's adjustable to the driver preference.
It is adjustable via springs or it can be dependant on the fluid chamber volumes. A small volume chamber pushing fluid into a larger chamber requires the plunger to travel a much longer distance.
As a very rudimentary theoretical example if the master cylinder held 50ml of fluid, and each slave cylinder ( brake calliper ) held 50ml of fluid, then for every 1mm of individual pad travel requires the master cylinder plunger to travel 8mm.
What you are seeing is leverage. The pedal might be moving alot but the piston in the master cylinder isnt. It allows them to brake very hard without having vacuum assistent etc. So the pedal might move quite abit but the actual piston pushing into the brake cylinder is barely moving.
Pedal travel comes mainly from:
- play in the system (pedalbox, pad/disk gap)
- unresolved air in the fluid (static and dynamic)
- flex (pedals/brake lines/ caliper)
It all adds up. In professional sims you sometimes use the system from the real car with the same hydraulic lengths and so on (hardware in the loop)
That's why you don't really gain much if you just put a hydraulic piston on simpedals. Especially because real system change over time and differ for each car (even if it is the same model)
That’s why I want to upgrade to Heusinkveld Ultimates +… I looked detailed reviews and the brake has nice amount of travel and everything else on brake and throttle like hydraulic dampers. I use now Fanatec CSL Elites Loadcell and it’s not good, usable but standard. Too stiff brake with almost no travel and gas is too light with shoes for me. Upgrade to HE would be amazing. Still Saving some money
if you remove the vacuum booster, then you need to change the mechanical advantage to the master cylinder. The mechanical advantage will increase pedal travel.
It’s called master cylinder to slave cylinder ratio. If you have a small mc piston and a large sc piston, you’ll have a long pedal but the travel at the sc will be very small. It’s essentially the same thing which happens on a 10spd bicycle, in an easy ge@r, you have to rotate the pedals several revolutions to get one single revolution at the back wheel.
This is a very common setup change for rally drivers, and is precisely the reason why they still have the full amount of brake pedal travel even on snow and ice stages, where the actual pressure at the sc/pads is nowhere near as high as when on a tarmac stage, for example.
Hope that helps mate. Nice vid, btw.
Great video Karl, look at Lando Norris's brake cam, a lot of travel and then in the next clip of another driver the pedal hardly moves, so there is no correct answer, when you get to that level your brake peddle is set up for your preferences.
KARL we've been confused since the asetek review from everyone 😭😭😭😭
I'm still confused! lol
The real question is, when is the braking effect starting.
The hand and foot brakes of motocycles have a bold to adjust the travel, depending on the hand size and the foot position, but during this travel, there is no breaking effect.
Just as you noticed, as the only reviewer for the Invictia, that travel of the elastomer is a dead zone.
Some motocycle drivers prefer having the hand more closed when braking, or the foot/leg angle a little larger.
Some drivers may feel more comfortable to start and calibrate the braking effect when their foot is at a more open angle.
Leverage and master cylinder size. all comes down to the type of race and how the car is set up for it and driver. imo
My (somewhat) educated guess at this is that you're comparing the very stiff and short brake pedal of a circuit car with a decent amount of downforce to a car that is built for very mixed conditions including ice, gravel, and snow and therefore the brake in a rally car intentionally has a longer/softer throw. In rally, the brakes are under constant use to position the car, and as we know, braking hard in low grip conditions either immediately engages ABS or locks up the wheel. So if you could imagine trying to use the brakes in a rally car with as stiff a pedal as a GT or Formula car, the driver would get very tired, but also likely have constant issues with lock ups because as the pedal stiffens and shortens, the input becomes more digital than analog (which is fine in a circuit car that has reasonably repeatable braking conditions and points. Additionally, the suspension in a rally car is going to be a lot softer, and if you had a very stiff pedal, managing the nuance of the weight transfer that is constantly needed would be almost impossible. Yes, weight transfer is certainly a thing in GT Circuit cars, but not in the same way as a rally car. Again, I don't know if the above is completely accurate, but seems to make sense to me.
I'm not mate, those clips were all circuit cars (GT3 for example) bar one which was rally!
@@KarlGosling ah, sorry, was watching between doing work things and saw the rally cars. It could be something to do with the ruleset of the particular series (perhaps there are certain pieces they must keep from factory like the brake booster), or these could just be track cars and series that aren't quite up to the level of development of more serious machinery. Or of they have options, it could be just driver preference.
usually driver preference, master cylinder pistons can be changed in diameter to give the driver their preferred feel, we do the same thing in Karting, some drivers prefer a solid pedal where others like a bit of movement
They can and I usually use anything from about 0.6 to 0.7 in my setups but they still do not have this sort of travel.
@@KarlGosling yeah, some of the pedal movement in the vids is very excessive, you don't know when this footage is taken, maybe in a long stage or race, the pedal, or brake pressure changes when used in this race environment, i do know that during hot weather and in Karting the brake pedal i set for my kart is very solid, but after a 25/30 lap final the pedal is softer, not to the extent seen in the vids, but everything much too hot to touch after a race, things do change. Karting hasn't the weight and inertia like a full size car, so i can only assume it would be more in this scenario?? In my stock car the pedal was always firm even after a final in the summer. If that pedal went spongy, there was a problem, keep the race vids coming Karl!
Where can I get some pedals that are like the ones found in real race cars, with real travel? Because the sim pedals that I have seen, all have no travel, which makes it inaccurate and imprecise. THEY MUST have travel.
There are plenty that are adjustable, Fanatec V3's spring to mind a a very common set.
www.fanatec.com/?FAP+Banner&General+Links&a_aid=6174361ca9a4c
@Karl, another reason that can contribute to this will be how much the break pad have been worn out. When you replace your car's break pads notice how much sooner it engage and how much less travel you have after you have replaced the pads.
This isn't the case mate (or it shouldn't be), as the pads wear and move nearer the discs fluid fills the space created behind the pistons, when you fit new pads you have to push the pistons back and often get fluid spill out of the reservoir the pedal travel is the same at all times (not accounting for air, boiling fluid etc.).
Hey Karl just to clear your confusion it is all about how pedal is constructed. Have you ever tried to undo very tight wheel bolt in the car? You couldn't do it with normal wrench so you took a long pipe to make bigger force? What you did is increase travel at the end of the pipe and increased leverage. Look at every clip you posted in this video and see how hydraulics is mounted to the pedal. It is mounted very low. What it does is change lever on the pedal. It becomes much easier to press and physical travel of the pedal increases. When you mount same hydraulics on the top of the pedal or in the middle it will reduce travel of the pedal and you will need to press it much harder. Combined with different physical brakes and hydraulics you simply can manipulate force and travel the way you want.
I just went out and tested my GSXR 1000 brake lever travel. There is quite a lot. I had a 750 with braided lines and there was still a fair bit. I don't see how anyone could modulate brake force properly without a range of travel that your nervous system could pick up on. Foot or hand.
Also, if power assistance could result in that movement so it could be with piston ratios and lever ratios set to allow those pressures without power assist.
As you probably have noticed the brakes are very hard to use if the engine stalls and you use up your reservoir of vacuum.
They have different a different setup than to non power assist.
Also, brake lines can expand a tiny amount, but as you say, you would replace them with braided lines or similar, that don't. But I think they all do to a tiny bit.
It all adds up.
There's a video of Mr heusinkveld talking about when they tested pedals in real cars they varied wildly even in the same model car so it's all personal preference at the end of the day
Hopefully someone like Cookie And Cars or James Baldwin will see this video and elaborate with regards to sim pedals and irl race pedals.
That would be great! :)
I didnt read all the comments on this 2 year old vid, but i dont believe i saw what i conider to be the biggest cause be hind the mysteriously long-travel, short-throw brake pedal: not master cylinder bore, but caliper bore, more evident in simpler, single-piston calipers and the relationship between its volume versus a relatively soft brake pad.specifically, when pads are installed new, there is hardly any pedal travel at all but as the pads wear, that travel grows and is magnified back under your brake foot. I understand the Mazdas actually changed brake pads while pitting at Sebring back in the day. Another factor is fluid boil.
I believe this has to do with the master cylinder bore size. Bigger bore size allows more fluid to flow with short travel. Smaller bore needs more travel to push the same amount of fluid.
It may come down to race car design. In formula cars you may not have all the leg room a rally cars does. Also a lot of the videos you showed look older, so I don't know if it's a new race car design philosophy.
Also it may depend on the type of race car. Rally and V8SC for instance you need to carry speed/momentum - so you want the travel for easier trail braking? vs formula and GT cars where you want to brake at the limit.
This is all my speculation as I am not a race car engineer
Personal preference - this idea that the brake has to be all force & very little play isn't going to work for everyone. If it did I would be able to beat my son who likes tons of play in the brake pedal & very little resistance , he kicks my arse 🤣
1-the pedal to the floor in t1 nurburgring ...Its brakepad kickback...
So it took more fluid to push the pad before properly clamping.....
U can see the subsequent clip the same car/driver pedal travel back to normal
2- in rally car, although its servo-less setup, often pedal travel ratio used is longer...simply for modulation on loose surface
3-brake pedal in race car were heavy and short travel is true mostly...but only 100% true on single seater high downforce highspeed race cars like formula cars and lmp cars
do you have a link or title for the first video?
to be honest I've only ever heard that this was true of f1 cars and similar which have almost zero movement in them. it makes sense that cars of different classes and uses would have different configurations leading to different levels of travel. I understand that we brake better by pressure than by travel, but there is a correlation that has to be "right" for the driver - a calibration between human and steel.
Look up Pedra De La Rosa's pedal work at Spa in 2000. He has the same long pedal travel as these videos. I'm honestly stunned.
When i brake with non load cell pedals i'm putting the same pressure in every time with the same travel. They are linked.
Brake pedal travel begins with the master cylinder, a smaller master cylinder bore requires less effort to push but more travel is needed to stop the vehicle versus a larger master cylinder requires more effort to push but less travel to stop the vehicle, why? Cause its moving more fluid per inch with the bigger bore which holds more fluid ! Thats why in car foot cameras may have different brake travel, there running different size master cylinders!
Yes, this. And pedal ratio is the other thing you can tweak for pedal travel.
Yes that is another way to get more or less brake travel, is the distance the master cylinder mounts to the brake pedal pivot point!
Yup spot on (as I mentioned I install them IRL), but I've never seen this much travel before.
The increased amount of brake travel could be from heat and brake fade and/or towards the end of certain events from brake pad wear increasing the clearances that movement in the brake pedal must account for and take up.
Though as a sim racer sitting in my home in underwear and socks racing my pretend car I actually want a repeatable consistency in my brakes in accordance too the amount of pressure I apply to the brake pedal, not a pedal that I feel like I am working out at the gym every time I want to slow for a corner.
I am also the same way with the ffb on the steering wheel, I want enough feedback and force applied that I understand what the car on the screen is doing and feel the slippage of the tires but again not so much I need to be be a powerlifter to hold the wheel going through the corner or to a point if I crash I have to be concerned that the wheel will snap back with so much force it may break my wrist.
If a wheel needs an emergency power shutoff switch like you find used on commercial equipment in a manufacturing plant to be safe for me that is in excess of what my gaming requires for my needs.
Not to mention in real life race cars most all modern race cars utilize a power assisted steering solution and not a manual box that requires excess effort to turn the car.
Easy, they have selected a smaller brake master cylinder = more brake pedal travel but less pedal effort. Its personal preference for pedal effort. When fitting say a 1" over 3/4" master cyl the opposite is true.
Well! Now I’m totally confused. I think I will stick to my Clubsport V3 pedals with the upgrade kit. I’m happy.
Lol, I came here hoping you had the answer!
If you do find the answer, do a follow up video
I’ve driven Radicals and a Praga R1 on track and I can confirm that they are heavy and have short travel. They are prototypes so there’s that.
There will always be some that will selectively find the clip or text that proves black is white
It all depends on the setup. Not all race cars uses the same calipers, master cylinder, fluid, brake pads etc. Funny how sim racers love to argue about this without having first hand experience with different setups.
Some race cars have lots of travel (mostly GT) and some have very little (F3 & F1).
Random Callsign made a vid the wknd of the Spa 24H interviewing many pro drivers on this called “Pro drivers Debunk Sim racing pedals Myths”.
Just run what works for you & simulates your desired car the best.
Good you open the discussion. IMO brake pedal travel is set per driver preference. Also depend of the race car type (F1, GT, Rallye) it's likely to require different braking strategy and so brake pedal characteristic. On the video you have shown, lkely, long pedals travel are due to long fluid travel, piping and air in the system.
It’s master cylinder diameter and pedal ratio (pivot point). Those things adjust how much fluid is pushed when you push the pedal. You don’t want any air in your brake lines as it leads to ineffective brakes.
@@pieflies Ok, Thanks for the clarification.
must be Geometry adjustment to suit the drivers preference
Very large diameter inside the brake caliper. 4 and 6 piston per axle. So, large brake kits, thats 12 pistons front and 8 pistons rear. How much is the fluid capacity of the total system.
I've helped with many customers cars heading to mosport, calibogi, targa newfoundland, the Glen, etc.. the cars all have basicly the same travel.
I hypotheses is the system is filling with fluid, slack of pads to disc's, and yes flex lines to expand a very small amout in cross section.
Your thoughts?
Could well be mate yes, the fluid has to go somewhere when the pedal moves that far.
Having had the chance to talk to the likes of Hayden Paddon (ex WRC driver) and working with a few circuit racers and done a few IRL cars myself it all comes down to person liking and as someone else said in the comments here it is all down to the master cylinder bore size and pedal ratio and also brake fluid. Some drivers like a hard pedal some like it softer. The likes of Hayden Paddon when he set up his sim he got a set of HE sprints and didn't like them as he likes to judge his braking by how much he moves his foot etc. As for after market pedal boxes for real cars they to can have the throw changed by I think most do it off the rotation pin move it up gives you more throw down gives you less or maybe the other way around
Thanks for sharing your info mate, I agree that pressure vs travel in sim racing is not for everyone, we have no g forces when braking in sim so it's very hard to judge how hard we are braking, travel and pressure are all we have.
whic pedals is he using now?
Dabbing the brakepedal before a corner (@7:30m) is to shift weight to the front to improve cornering.
It can be used for that yes but in my example it's to reverse pad knock off and close the gap before actually braking.
It's also to make sure they still have brakes. You can see them do that on a long straight away.
i used water in my brakes on my trails brake back in the day got to love the hs33's
Are these anomalies, or much more common than known to us IRL plebs? Because, these could either be mid race fixes, failures, or wear. Also those might just be poorly built race cars(happens all the time).
I wouldn't rule out heat from mid, to late in a race. Braided lines will still expand slightly under certain circumstance, and high temp brake fluid isn't magic juice. Not to mention pad material and how it might wear or be optimized under given conditions.
on the Race channel here on youtube there is a video of gt3 GTR Nismp doing on board with pedal cam and indeed the travel is huge is not the 2.5 cm like those pedals.. in the beginning of this video i said to my self its has to do with rallying not woth gt3 but youtube search prove me wrong..
Yeah there's GT3 clips in here too, mad isn't it!
@@KarlGosling absolutely mad going through the comments one by one to see any logical explanation !
Could we somehow possibly forward this to someone like Nicki Thiim for example? I feel like i need an "official" answer to this now :D
One thing that could explain would be where the peddles are connecting to the braking system. If we take our sim peddels the sensors are normally at the base of the peddle which might not be moving as far as what the foot plate would appear to move.
Unless you are talking about some exotic drive-by-wire car, there is no such thing like "sensors" in real brake system. It is just pistons agains pistons.
Huh, initial travel is one thing, but for example braking in a (properly set up) formula Renault is like trying to push the floor down after an initial few millimeters of travel. Absolutely no give..
Very interesting theme Karl, I concluded that my Thrustmaster T-LCM pedals are closer to the actual behavior of race cars than the top-of-the-range pedals like those of the Asetek :).
In fact they behave much more similarly to my actual car than these pedals that don't have any displacement.
there are some elastometer tutorials about the TLCM and the guy is comparing them to the heusinkveld brake feel. ofc its not the same and the heusinkveld are built like a tank but thinking about the cost: its nuts to be able to just mention the 2 in the same phrase...
All those cars appear to be based on street cars (not bespoke race cars) and have strict regulations as to what you can and cannot change. Some may have aftermarket pedal boxes but otherwise factory brake system internals. Add to that master cylinder/firewall flex that is perfectly acceptable on a street car but not so much on a track.
GT3 cars are based on road cars, but they are very much race cars, I mean they are not like F1 but still.
@@KarlGosling Another answer may be that those particular drivers, for whatever reason, just like to have a lot of pedal travel. So they set them up that way.
Cool video ill prob keep a set of pedals with much further travel now the cheapest thrustmaster ones are quite good the ones with just 2 pedals they have alot of movement might try modding them now but the hard force thing might be a rumour too tbh like you say with gforces of leg. Im actually quite worried of people using stiff pedals and hurting bodies gaming tbh as you could be pressing it all day.
High temperature can make brake lines and pads quite squishy, I suspect.
If your not using braided cables then yes but mostly comp brakes will be braided and as such dissipate heat before its annissue .
Based on brakes for shale racing a while back.
Hi Karl. Is the best way to play racing sims on the quest 2 still via a link cable? Is the experience via airlink and vd still very blurry like it used to be? Thanks in advance mate!
The image quality over link is fine but there is more latency than being wired.
@@KarlGosling thanks a lot for the answer. Is it the same story with virtual Desktop?
Karl your a star , Will mentioned you on his latest video ! : )
Thanks mate, yeah we speak fairly regularly about bits and bobs.
From 2000 to 2014, I worked as a taxi driver, during which time I changed over 20 different cars. Each of the cars had different brakes in all aspects. It literally took me 5 minutes to get used to each way of braking because I was not able to put it as it suits me. The whole "reality" story is just about making money from people without driving experience. Sim pedals of 700-1000-1200 euros / dollar is ridiculous in my opinion.
I agree about the price for sure, but driving taxis doesn't give us much insight into race card brake pedals... I can drive 10 cars a day at work on a busy day but they are not race cars either so doesn't really help.
@@KarlGosling I responsibly claim that, for example, TLCM pedals are no worse than some much more expensive in terms of functionality.
The essential difference between GT cars and ordinary ones is that you have the ability to brake while turning
At the end of the day does it really matter how much travel there is in sim racing pedals as long as you can brake and get round a turn?
We are sim races and while it is nice to have the feeling of driving a real car it will never be perfect.
I used to be quite a keen photographer and saw people who used to spend crazy money to get pro quality equipment and couldn't understand why they didn't instantly become a better photographer.
The same applies to sim racing, you don't need have to have the best of most expensive gear to get good results.
That however is not what the clever marketing people want you believe.
It is personal preference I suppose and whether people are happy with whatever gear they chose to buy and use.
To some sim racers yes it does matter, to the casual racer like myself not so much :)
It does for me. I do not care about results - I do care about immersion.
For me with logitech pedals and IRacing seems like I barely touch the pedal and it locks up no matter the car. No real car would be like that.
If you boil your brake fluid you will get compression. On my track car towards the end of the session if I over brake I can tell because the pedal gets soft and I gotta bleed the brakes afterwards. Even high temp brake fluid can boil if you get it hot enough. Also most of the travel you see isn't engaging the brake. I mean the the difference between full lock and letting off for trail braking is about as much as it is in the sim pedals. there is travel before you actually engage the brake. You wouldn't want the brakes to bite the second you hover your foot over it.
Again it doesn't matter how much or little travel there is.. it just has to be consistent. If you drive the same track car you learn the travel and bite points.just like you learn it on your sim set
Brake fluids can boil at end of races creating long brake peddle travel as boiled fluid becomes a gas and is compressible
Look at Pedro De La Rosa's 2000 qualifying lap at spa that shows his pedalwork (It's on youtube). It's a qualifying lap! There's not excessive heat built into the system, and it's still easily a 2 inch pedal travel.
@@KyleP133 yeah for sure imo brake travel a personal thing to for the the correct feel too
A follow up on this video when you learn more would be cool.
It just seems that it varies from car to car and driver to driver mate.
Rubber hoses expand, braided line help to mitigate that.
Piston size to pedal travel ratio.
Piston of the master cylinder that is... increased piston size equal more brake travel, as more fluid must be moved for same distance of piston travel. Hope this helps @karl. Cheers mate
Thats one possibility, which I was aware of as I fit them IRL, but I've still not seen this much travel... my experience is very limited though.
Great explanations again Karl, Orio is the man 🤙
Pad knockback? I have to pump the pedal after certain turns. Other turns no problem.
This just adds to how i felt you where a bit off in youre invicta review. Might be me misunderstanding?
You call the elastomer travel stage 1 for ‘mechanical play’. It’s not..
Up to the point you feel a bit of resistance, lets say up to 2kg (random number) is mech play. Hinges, freeplay travel in master cyl, brakepads moving in to the disk.
Now this is where the stage 1 begins, compressing the elastomer. Pressing pads level onto the disk (alot of pistons), seals settling in under pressure, brake lines expanding a little etc. This will continue up to 50kg press on the soft elastomer.
Now stage 2 takes over, pedal travel stops as nothing expands or compresses anymore, bit pressure continues to rise.
The race cars in these videos, might have alot of freeplay before they even start building pressure. Can be because of a small master cyl with big calipers etc, but a proper brake setups does have a short travel where pressure really builds.
Regular cars has abs systems, softer brakelines, and even built in ‘comfort feel’ to the pedal so Granny can drive around in it, and is not comparable :)
I do agree though, that it could be possible to get close to this invicta system on a typical load cell system, with some modifications, so the travel stops at 40-60kg but load cell still reads pressure building. We will probably see that allready in 2022 i think, but who knows if it will feel just as good as they say Invictas does.
Mechanical play includes the pads contacting the discs, seals settling, flexi expansion if any, etc.
What I've concluded from reading real life experiences in the comments and across the internet is that it varies from car to car and driver to driver... so a lot will be personal preference.
Can we flip this on its head? Can we find pedal cam videos of race cars that show almost no travel? I have had no luck at all to back Asetek's claim.
I didn't either, but I do fit them and can confirm they have almost no travel... which is what really confuses me?! lol
@@KarlGosling I am not disputing that they are onto something that could work well, but it's a new paradigm as far as I know
The drivers legs are hams go try to push the same pedal in a racecar if you haven't it's not that easy but they make it look so.
What wheelstand or cockpit would work well without drilling extra hole
Do you not have some special sim racer to sim racer connections us mere mortals don't, so you can ask James about McLaren 720 or Jimmy about Praga
I don't mate no! Lol
Feel is key, probably some sort of leverage added in to the brake pedal, to give a light feel at the start and heavy feel at the end. Think of it like a set of mole grips, completely solid mechanism but still a feel of leverage, i bet it makes it feel progressive but hard at the final point.
Not to sound like a prick but maybe its more your rigid idea that brake pedal should be solid that makes it seem odd? Put it this way, the amount engineering know how in the motorsport world, if someone in a race series wants a certain kind of pedal feel there will always be an engineering solution to it.
I think a good way you could test the "feel" hypothesis is look at multiple onboards for a spec series and see if everyones pedal is the same.
My idea isn't rigid mate, I was just referencing Asetek and their design philosophy and my own very limited experience fitting race pedal boxes, I literally say I have no idea why they are the way they are, it's why I made the video :)
How u doing?, Bravo. that is perfect video-work- farewell, Karl, 🔥
Until the Asetek pedals I had not heard that all race cars had minimal travel. I think Asetek just know good marketing.
Seen it in pretty much every sim racing group on FB when people ask about the break pedal travel.
I had once privilige to spend day driving formula renault and few laps with WIlliams FW29. What an experience was that. These two cars had HUGE gap between on everything, but pricipless were same. Both had very short and heavy pedal. I am not race driver, It was my first time driving real racetrack.
Pedal felt like too stiff to work as it designed because I wasnt driving fast enough. G-force wasnt enough to help as much it should. You have to understand that these cars even havent got very much cabin space to make big movements. Actually formula renault is so cramped that I couldnt move wheel more than maybe 60 degrees, and couldnt put finger between my knees. It maybe became easier to brake from higher speed than low speed.
So. These high downforce tiny openwheelers have short pedal travel and high force because high deceleration forces helping to push pedal and driving position quite far from normal car we are used to. Maybe because of driving position it isnt possible to have very long pedal travel.
Great experience to share thanks mate!
Yes they do have allot of travel.
More travel = more precise control. Brake travel is up to driver preference and car setup I.e aero, suspension ,camber etc
Brake failing , fade 🤷🏻♂️ , it seems wrong but maybe that’s how they like it lol 😊
Aside from the marketing that Asetek does for making everyone believe that is how racecar brakes are (i have no idea if it is or not), I have a hard brake pedal with very little travel on my trackcar, and therefor prefer a hard brake pedal with very little travel on my simrig.
Good to see your eye's getting much better and that quickly!
Yeah it really is, thanks mate!
Loadcells are to blame for the short throw.
Honestly, I would not buy Asetek pedals. I love how they look, but my main focus is old cars and rally. And I need the travel there. I change the elastomer in my Sprints for different cars, too.
Like mentioned by someone else already: take rally cars out of this discussion. Soft suspension and different levels of grip need a bit different approach than aero heavy circuit cars.
Aliens!