I was 53 when I decided to learn to code and try web development. Took me more than 2 1/2 years of constant effort before I got that first professional gig at age 56. Now I'm 58 with almost 2 years of freelance front-end work behind me. Best move I ever made.
Perfectly said and well proven, in my experience. I'm 50+ and recently landed a tech lead job in an industry I've never worked in by pretty much applying those exact principles. FYI: Previously in this job search I had a really positive interview with multiple people and nailed the whiteboard test but was later told they didn't think I had enough "hands on experience" (despite my emphasizing my current job involved 80% coding to everyone I interviewed with). I believe that was straight up ageism. Oh, well. You sometimes get that and the equally vague "cultural fit." You have to shrug those off. The frequent question I've gotten that you didn't cover is the "stamina/energy" question which is sometimes veiled (and sometimes not) as "How are you about deadlines/weekends?" My response is to play my experience in my favor, touting the number of 80-hour weeks I've pulled and that I'm not encumbered with a new marriage or small children or a wild social life and that I've learned how to structure and pace my work to get projects over the finish line.
I think that in development no matter the age, I started at 31 in the programming world, now I'm 35 and I have no problem with getting a job, I even just started a small development and technology services company
10:19 it's not age - it's your eagerness to learn and grow. Employers are worried that older candidates won't have the humility and curiosity needed to be a successful junior developer.
To beat ageism you have to be reborn. I aged back in the vb6 days. Am so amazed by the reactive frameworks today. That got me reborn.. learning like crazy
I remember taking a Visual Basic class at the local Junior College, we used VB6, sadly the industry had already moved on to VB.net. Before that, I did some VB4 coding back in the early 1990's.
my boyfriend is 36 and only just learning to code/dev. he's terrified about ageism and always gets depressed and unmotivated that he's too old. i'm learning to code too (im 24) with him it's partly the reason i took it up tbh so we can do something together and keep him positive. i say him hell if he really doesnt get hired dont worry we'll do something together!
Wow, 36 is still young for a coder. My last job was with the Police in London, UK and we had a couple of coders in their 70's still cutting it with COBOL and C on Mainframes. Stay positive as I don't think ageism really kicks in until you're well into your 40's.
@James McKee lol he was learning in python at first, i convinced him to switch to C# with me because of a certain channel, i wonder which channel that is? 0:) we're a month into c# now so sticking with that. but will take your other comments onboard for sure thanks
good to hear. im 60 and have been learning python for the past three years. mostly making stuff like stock scanners to help me make money in the stock market. and its working.
You are always amazing in your videos, I am 51, coding is my passion, have down some coding projects that have led to my juniors being employed and are now in good shape jobwise. Ever learning is my hobby.
I'm leaning towards 50 now. I'm among the oldest out of 100 folks in my level. The part about being humble in the video is the most relevant part. You will get ignored by the 20 somethings or looked at as being in the way by others. Get bossed around by folks that don't have any experience compared to you. Yeah, they may have 3 years IT. But you have 8x as much. Being a total newbie coder at 40+ sucks and likely isn't going to work out if the place is small and brogrammer environment. Your feelings will get hurt being excluded. It's too much like high school cliques. You won't get the good projects and end up supporting old projects while the kids do the new stuff. Then will be just maintenance. I've been there. It's better to just pick something else hourly like pharmacy tech, work at Amazon distribution center, fast food manager or amusement park. All these jobs pay just good enough that if you work more hours will balance out all the unpaid time you will use keeping up with python or .net core or any of this crap that changes every year.
I started in the Software industry in 1987, been at it for 35 years now. The form of Ageism I feel/experience is that I've been around too long and don't want to learn new things. I'm open to learn new things given the opportunity, just give me the time to do it. Having to continually learn is just the way things work and I've known that for a long time. But also too you have to pick your area of expertise, and this emphasis on "Full Stack" everything is ridiculous. Even people I've met who say they are "Full Stack" are only expert in a couple of areas and have basic knowledge in the others to cover the bases. Computers have always been the "young person's" game, but there are still some of us older people who can play the game just as well or better. It's called experience.
When I was 26 years old (now 35, dev) I didn't even know how DB persistence works because they don't teach you that stuff in Uni, computer science degre. I wouldn't fear too much younger developers trust me 😉 At the end it all comes down to SKILLS, the rest is fluff. Avoid toxic companies
The strategy that has worked for me is two-fold: (1) maintain and upgrade the technical aspects of software engineering as needed and (2) keep an active, athletic (but safe) lifestyle to maintain energy and mobility. For example, I ran a 4 mile race last weekend. I am from Generation X. I go to the gym daily for cardio and try to eat a high-fiber regimen with plenty of fruits and vegetables. I try to eat an apple or banana with almost every meal (or grapes). As for the technical aspects, I have multiple master's degrees in engineering earned from my late 20s to middle age. The most recent was in ECE in 2019. In the midst of that were large numbers of courses in the "latest-and-greatest" of computer science like data structures and algorithms, Java REST, python, data mining, database systems, discrete math, artificial intelligence, statistical data sciences, software engineering design, etc. In about 2000, I learned Java 1.X, and I didn't use it for about 12 years. In 2013, I got back to a Java test job, and Java 7.x and higher had changed a lot. It was hard to ramp back-up. That was when I dealt with an ageism being perceived as an old guy who can't learn the new Java. So, I went back to graduate school and studied software engineering. These courses are very rigorous and hard to do. Alternatively, less-expensive and shorter options are available on Udemy which many programmers use. I've done that as well. The trick I learned is that in a busy schedule the need for training of new technology is often overlooked. You have to do it on your own time and ramp-up to it quickly or will be labeled badly. So, if a Generation X guy resists learning cloud computing, that is a bad red flag for management. Just embrace the new technology and ramp-up asap on your own - don't wait for them to tell you. It's unfair in some ways but very pragmatic in the midst of ageism that goes on in IT. There are some start-up cultures that mainly hire young developers in their 20s because (1) the cost is low compared to sr. developers and (2) they can work overtime without having to worry about fatherly responsibilities. Then they often burnout. It's a dilemma sometimes. In 2020, I coded over 6,000 lines of Java in about 4 months at a consulting job. Then I coded about another thousand in python for test automation using Flask, SQL Alchemy, and python requests using "unittest". It's important to keep up the learning on these new languages/technologies. I also learned Docker and recently ramped-up to AWS S3, DynamoDB, and SageMaker for basic testing. The "new" thing to learn never ends, and the stigma of falling behind is always waiting to creep-up if the older programmer doesn't try to stay ahead.
Thanks for posting that. Many good truths there you wrote. Yes, Java changed a lot since the SunMicro Java 2 days. Glad you are doing well and keep it up
Im a hardcore computer nerd, been doing it since 1995, I messed with python back in the day, and still use auto hotkey scripting for various games I play. Well, I'm 47, tho I feel 18. I'm very healthy, and my mind is still very sharp as well has having excellent research skills. Id like to start in web development, my local tech college has a good program, and pell grants will cover the entire thing. I'm thinking I can do the college and just hardcore learn on the side. But i guess ageism scares us all lol.... Heres how i see it, a 20-year-old will be using a lower-end coding job as a springboard, I simply want to land a decent low-end job period. My main goal is 100% remote work, if i can reach that goal, pay is secondary, and im a very happy guy. Is this realistic for me?
Software dev isn’t is just about coding. There are other things to consider, i.e. soft skills, learning skills, organisation skills, maths, etc. Additionally, in most cases you can recycle the abilities you got in previous jobs in order to produce a UNIQUE SOFTWARE DEVELOPER, a special individual, different to anyone else. Everybody is different, and this world needs people who can contribute by doing the things in different manners. Said that, nobody is going to start from scratch... previous experiences also matter, and they are relevant in different degrees, from subtile to evident.
As a person who is 58, when I graduated with a degree in Web Development, I was told flat out by several people that I was too old to do the job. So for me it isn't fear it is fact!
Well, as someone that age, work still seems to find me, but I started coding 45 years ago. These days, I do mostly backend website and database work, and maintain servers. Coding is mostly a hobby these days, as folks are using WordPress and the like.
I have a question regarding going through engineering school and which path I should choose. I’ll soon become 30 years old when I start my undergraduate and hopefully I’ll finish until I get to 33-35 years depending if I need extra years to get my bachelor degree, which engineering route of these disciplines would you recommend as for a guy little older than average for hitting a job in future where the age won’t be a problem and to have career in the field? Electrical, computer, mechanical or civil? I’m situated in Northern Europe.
I seriously started learning to code when I was 22, but back then with the stigma that I was too old for coding. Nowadays I see that it was all bullshit in my head. Age has nothing to do when it comes to learning to code. The only thing that is required is logical thinking, and beat lazyness, which I think should be the topic for the next video. HOW TO BEAT LAZINESS WHEN LEARNING TO CODE.
@@CoderFoundry is it only for US citizens or do you simply need to be in the US? I'm a British national so I can spend 3 months in the US on a tourist visa and stay with relatives.
To take advantage of any of the financing options (loan or ISA) you need to be a US citizen or permanent resident. If you want to get exact details about those call in or drop us an email (info@coderfoundry.com) and someone from admissions can assist you.
@@CoderFoundry I took the quiz and was offered a scheduled call but nobody called. I sent a mail but have not had any reply as yet. I:ve also requested a syllabus twice and not received anything. I'm working pretty hard here :0/ I realise I would need to prepay as an overseas student. Do you have a price for the virtual programme?
If you are looking for a part-time remote software development job and you’re over the age of 40, good luck there is about 1000 resumes in front of yours and 99% of them are probably younger than you are.
It's pretty disingenuous to say that "it's so far from the truth". Age discrimination is encoded into LAW and is THE practice used by tech companies to suppress wages. See H1B Visa.
I was 53 when I decided to learn to code and try web development. Took me more than 2 1/2 years of constant effort before I got that first professional gig at age 56. Now I'm 58 with almost 2 years of freelance front-end work behind me. Best move I ever made.
That’s amazing Ray. Thanks for sharing your experience.
Thanks!
"do not downplay your life experience" *very well put*, and an excellent item to remember to add to many situations!
Perfectly said and well proven, in my experience. I'm 50+ and recently landed a tech lead job in an industry I've never worked in by pretty much applying those exact principles.
FYI: Previously in this job search I had a really positive interview with multiple people and nailed the whiteboard test but was later told they didn't think I had enough "hands on experience" (despite my emphasizing my current job involved 80% coding to everyone I interviewed with). I believe that was straight up ageism. Oh, well. You sometimes get that and the equally vague "cultural fit." You have to shrug those off.
The frequent question I've gotten that you didn't cover is the "stamina/energy" question which is sometimes veiled (and sometimes not) as "How are you about deadlines/weekends?" My response is to play my experience in my favor, touting the number of 80-hour weeks I've pulled and that I'm not encumbered with a new marriage or small children or a wild social life and that I've learned how to structure and pace my work to get projects over the finish line.
Great tip!
I think that in development no matter the age, I started at 31 in the programming world, now I'm 35 and I have no problem with getting a job, I even just started a small development and technology services company
Thats awesome! Thanks for sharing your story.
10:19 it's not age - it's your eagerness to learn and grow. Employers are worried that older candidates won't have the humility and curiosity needed to be a successful junior developer.
Thanks Hashim!
To beat ageism you have to be reborn. I aged back in the vb6 days. Am so amazed by the reactive frameworks today. That got me reborn.. learning like crazy
I remember taking a Visual Basic class at the local Junior College, we used VB6, sadly the industry had already moved on to VB.net. Before that, I did some VB4 coding back in the early 1990's.
my boyfriend is 36 and only just learning to code/dev. he's terrified about ageism and always gets depressed and unmotivated that he's too old. i'm learning to code too (im 24) with him it's partly the reason i took it up tbh so we can do something together and keep him positive. i say him hell if he really doesnt get hired dont worry we'll do something together!
He is 100% not too old! Keep at it. It's great you guys are on a learning journey together.
@@CoderFoundry thanks so much
Wow, 36 is still young for a coder. My last job was with the Police in London, UK and we had a couple of coders in their 70's still cutting it with COBOL and C on Mainframes. Stay positive as I don't think ageism really kicks in until you're well into your 40's.
@@GazbertUK though perhaps they've been coding since their 20s. Plus, show me a 20 year old who can write Cobal!
@James McKee lol he was learning in python at first, i convinced him to switch to C# with me because of a certain channel, i wonder which channel that is? 0:) we're a month into c# now so sticking with that.
but will take your other comments onboard for sure thanks
good to hear. im 60 and have been learning python for the past three years. mostly making stuff like stock scanners to help me make money in the stock market. and its working.
You are always amazing in your videos, I am 51, coding is my passion, have down some coding projects that have led to my juniors being employed and are now in good shape jobwise. Ever learning is my hobby.
That’s awesome to hear. Thanks for sharing your story.
I'm leaning towards 50 now. I'm among the oldest out of 100 folks in my level. The part about being humble in the video is the most relevant part. You will get ignored by the 20 somethings or looked at as being in the way by others. Get bossed around by folks that don't have any experience compared to you. Yeah, they may have 3 years IT. But you have 8x as much. Being a total newbie coder at 40+ sucks and likely isn't going to work out if the place is small and brogrammer environment. Your feelings will get hurt being excluded. It's too much like high school cliques.
You won't get the good projects and end up supporting old projects while the kids do the new stuff. Then will be just maintenance. I've been there.
It's better to just pick something else hourly like pharmacy tech, work at Amazon distribution center, fast food manager or amusement park. All these jobs pay just good enough that if you work more hours will balance out all the unpaid time you will use keeping up with python or .net core or any of this crap that changes every year.
I started in the Software industry in 1987, been at it for 35 years now. The form of Ageism I feel/experience is that I've been around too long and don't want to learn new things. I'm open to learn new things given the opportunity, just give me the time to do it. Having to continually learn is just the way things work and I've known that for a long time. But also too you have to pick your area of expertise, and this emphasis on "Full Stack" everything is ridiculous. Even people I've met who say they are "Full Stack" are only expert in a couple of areas and have basic knowledge in the others to cover the bases.
Computers have always been the "young person's" game, but there are still some of us older people who can play the game just as well or better. It's called experience.
Yes, ageism exists. It is a fact. However, the demand for developers exceeds the supply.
When I was 26 years old (now 35, dev) I didn't even know how DB persistence works because they don't teach you that stuff in Uni, computer science degre. I wouldn't fear too much younger developers trust me 😉
At the end it all comes down to SKILLS, the rest is fluff. Avoid toxic companies
The strategy that has worked for me is two-fold: (1) maintain and upgrade the technical aspects of software engineering as needed and (2) keep an active, athletic (but safe) lifestyle to maintain energy and mobility. For example, I ran a 4 mile race last weekend. I am from Generation X. I go to the gym daily for cardio and try to eat a high-fiber regimen with plenty of fruits and vegetables. I try to eat an apple or banana with almost every meal (or grapes). As for the technical aspects, I have multiple master's degrees in engineering earned from my late 20s to middle age. The most recent was in ECE in 2019. In the midst of that were large numbers of courses in the "latest-and-greatest" of computer science like data structures and algorithms, Java REST, python, data mining, database systems, discrete math, artificial intelligence, statistical data sciences, software engineering design, etc. In about 2000, I learned Java 1.X, and I didn't use it for about 12 years. In 2013, I got back to a Java test job, and Java 7.x and higher had changed a lot. It was hard to ramp back-up. That was when I dealt with an ageism being perceived as an old guy who can't learn the new Java. So, I went back to graduate school and studied software engineering. These courses are very rigorous and hard to do. Alternatively, less-expensive and shorter options are available on Udemy which many programmers use. I've done that as well. The trick I learned is that in a busy schedule the need for training of new technology is often overlooked. You have to do it on your own time and ramp-up to it quickly or will be labeled badly. So, if a Generation X guy resists learning cloud computing, that is a bad red flag for management. Just embrace the new technology and ramp-up asap on your own - don't wait for them to tell you. It's unfair in some ways but very pragmatic in the midst of ageism that goes on in IT. There are some start-up cultures that mainly hire young developers in their 20s because (1) the cost is low compared to sr. developers and (2) they can work overtime without having to worry about fatherly responsibilities. Then they often burnout. It's a dilemma sometimes. In 2020, I coded over 6,000 lines of Java in about 4 months at a consulting job. Then I coded about another thousand in python for test automation using Flask, SQL Alchemy, and python requests using "unittest". It's important to keep up the learning on these new languages/technologies. I also learned Docker and recently ramped-up to AWS S3, DynamoDB, and SageMaker for basic testing. The "new" thing to learn never ends, and the stigma of falling behind is always waiting to creep-up if the older programmer doesn't try to stay ahead.
Thanks for posting that. Many good truths there you wrote. Yes, Java changed a lot since the SunMicro Java 2 days. Glad you are doing well and keep it up
Thanks for the Motivation. Much appreciated. Love and Peace!!!
You're very welcome Syd.
Im a hardcore computer nerd, been doing it since 1995, I messed with python back in the day, and still use auto hotkey scripting for various games I play. Well, I'm 47, tho I feel 18. I'm very healthy, and my mind is still very sharp as well has having excellent research skills. Id like to start in web development, my local tech college has a good program, and pell grants will cover the entire thing. I'm thinking I can do the college and just hardcore learn on the side. But i guess ageism scares us all lol....
Heres how i see it, a 20-year-old will be using a lower-end coding job as a springboard, I simply want to land a decent low-end job period. My main goal is 100% remote work, if i can reach that goal, pay is secondary, and im a very happy guy. Is this realistic for me?
Software dev isn’t is just about coding. There are other things to consider, i.e. soft skills, learning skills, organisation skills, maths, etc. Additionally, in most cases you can recycle the abilities you got in previous jobs in order to produce a UNIQUE SOFTWARE DEVELOPER, a special individual, different to anyone else. Everybody is different, and this world needs people who can contribute by doing the things in different manners. Said that, nobody is going to start from scratch... previous experiences also matter, and they are relevant in different degrees, from subtile to evident.
As a person who is 58, when I graduated with a degree in Web Development, I was told flat out by several people that I was too old to do the job. So for me it isn't fear it is fact!
So did you get a job eventually? Did you keep interviewing? We agree it does exists but that does not mean every company will tell you that.
hi was wondering where you got the degree from, i dont see to many in web dev.
Well, as someone that age, work still seems to find me, but I started coding 45 years ago. These days, I do mostly backend website and database work, and maintain servers. Coding is mostly a hobby these days, as folks are using WordPress and the like.
You've nailed it again! Thank you for the amazing information.
Thanks!
Great advice. Thanks for the honest videos.
You’re welcome Phil. Thanks for the comment.
I have a question regarding going through engineering school and which path I should choose. I’ll soon become 30 years old when I start my undergraduate and hopefully I’ll finish until I get to 33-35 years depending if I need extra years to get my bachelor degree, which engineering route of these disciplines would you recommend as for a guy little older than average for hitting a job in future where the age won’t be a problem and to have career in the field? Electrical, computer, mechanical or civil? I’m situated in Northern Europe.
I'm 39 and completely new to this world. Where do I start?
Start with something simple to make sure you actually even enjoy coding. Look at codecademy or Solo Learn and see if you find it interesting.
I seriously started learning to code when I was 22, but back then with the stigma that I was too old for coding. Nowadays I see that it was all bullshit in my head. Age has nothing to do when it comes to learning to code. The only thing that is required is logical thinking, and beat lazyness, which I think should be the topic for the next video. HOW TO BEAT LAZINESS WHEN LEARNING TO CODE.
Great Topic - I'll add it to the board of ideas! Thanks Zulu.
Thanks for this video. Do you have an idea about when you will roll out the virtual programme for overseas students?
At this point we do not have a planned date. Sorry.
@@CoderFoundry is it only for US citizens or do you simply need to be in the US? I'm a British national so I can spend 3 months in the US on a tourist visa and stay with relatives.
To take advantage of any of the financing options (loan or ISA) you need to be a US citizen or permanent resident.
If you want to get exact details about those call in or drop us an email (info@coderfoundry.com) and someone from admissions can assist you.
@@CoderFoundry I took the quiz and was offered a scheduled call but nobody called. I sent a mail but have not had any reply as yet. I:ve also requested a syllabus twice and not received anything. I'm working pretty hard here :0/
I realise I would need to prepay as an overseas student. Do you have a price for the virtual programme?
Just the USA? Can I do the boot camp in a different country?
At this point we can only offer the virtual program to the US. We're looking at future options to expand to other countries.
Hello from Hickory, NC
Hi Al!
If you are looking for a part-time remote software development job and you’re over the age of 40, good luck there is about 1000 resumes in front of yours and 99% of them are probably younger than you are.
40 is not old. You overcome this by building a portfolio of projects. You win on skills not on age.
Cool channel very professional
Thanks Vishal - we appreciate it.
It's pretty disingenuous to say that "it's so far from the truth". Age discrimination is encoded into LAW and is THE practice used by tech companies to suppress wages. See H1B Visa.
I am 25 and i feel as if i am too old to code..
You are not. 25 is just beginning
Oh, oh. 65. Too late!
Hey - just because WE haven't seen it, doesn't means it's too late.