Rob Bell defends his view of Hell in "Love Wins" debate
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
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Rob Bell debates with Adrian Warnock whether Hell is a place of eternal punishment and defends the view that people can be saved from it.
Rob Bell is the founding pastor of Mars Hill Bible Church, Grandville Michigan. His latest book "Love Wins: Heaven, Hell and the fate of every person who ever lived" has ignited a theological firestorm. He debated the issues with UK Church blogger Adrian Warnock on Justin Brierley's UK faith discussion radio show "Unbelievable?" in April 2011.
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I love how it says defends when it really means struggles to get a word out with people who never wanted to hear him explain himself anyway.
I'm more concerned about how these other two men treat Bell throughout the interview. It is an incredibly un-Christlike conversation from the 2 men interviewing him. They aren't listening to him at all. They just imposing their own thoughts through the form of question and rarely let him even get a word in.
I quite agree my friend. I have read Christians slating this man and telling him he’s lost his faith - when all he’s doing is grappling with an enormous question that many of us struggle with. Rob sounds really thoughtful and loving
@@fitness6681 it sounds as if these two are afraid of what this man is saying. They can't even admit to theirselves they are afraid. Like what the hell is wrong with admitting fear. When i started loosing my faith as a kid i went to Christians just to realize they couldn't talk about certain things which was terrifying to me because i felt all alone and i wasn't sure of myself
I agree
@@grapentine739 Traditional evangelical Christians everywhere are deathly afraid of what this man is saying because he's blowing the substructure of their entire belief system out of the water.
This is what fundermentalism does smh
I love Rob Bell. He's not afraid to ask questions and actually think about things.
+Matt Crawley He's not afraid to ask questions but he is afraid to answer them.
+Brackish nz it seems to me that is because he acknowledges that he doesn't know the answers, and no one else
really does. The questions are a discussion.
I think he's got his own ideas, but he wont commit to saying them outright. He's got his foot in two camps it would seem.
RUN...don’t follow a false shepherd
@@mikem3789 I’m not actually a Christian anymore. Take that as you will. I still love Rob Bell for actually questioning the Christian status quo
This was infuriating. He wasn't allowed to speak at any length about anything because you kept speaking over him. There was a clear agenda here to throw him under the bus.
The problem at the heart of these discussions is this: One side is convinced of certainty, the other is not.
AKA Arrogance
Frustrating how the presenters keep asking questions and talking over Rob, giving him very little time to respond in his way.
I wouldn’t get a word in edgewise and ITS RUDE and ungodly behaviour. Typical from the old guard.
I have evangelical Christian family who have decried the evils of Rob Bell from the moment this book was even spoken of. I, however, see him as a bright light in a hurting and lost world. I have only begun to find out what all the fuss is about, all this tyime later, and I must say I am thrilled with the integrity and light about him. Thank you Rob Bell for bringing your light to the world.
I’m going to speak from the heart with compassion, love, and empathy as my motivation. I personally believe the concept of torture to be barbaric, and extreme, so I definitely perceive eternal torture as even worse. I doubt there is many people who would torture their children for not believing or understanding properly. In fact I doubt most people would torture their own children for committing murder or rape. Someone may say but if you don’t accept a particular dogma or doctrine you’re not a child of God, and I would submit that most people wouldn’t torture their enemies or their neighbors children for any reason either. If we’re told to love our neighbors and enemies, is God not held by the same standard? At this point in my life, I honestly don’t know what to believe, but I will continue to seek and in the mean time, I will attempt to show love to my fellow man. Yes, I’ve read the Bible on numerous times cover to cover and I’ve accepted certain theological perspectives at a certain time in my life, but every religious group claims to have a monopoly on truth. Someone will also say that Jesus said that I’m the way, the truth, and the life... but every denomination of Christianity quotes the same scripture as they argue with one another over what’s true.
the kendred spirit love your comment..I'm sure you are a beautiful soul.
the kendred spirit if God allowed His inly begotten Don to endure the torture on the cross for our sins, why on Earth do you not believe that those who reject Christ will endure hell? Good for thought. Keep looking to scriptures, not denominations. God bless you.
the kendred spirit ps. Christ s crucification was barbaric
I will answer as directly as possible while we still can.
People are not send to hell for misunderstanding or never hearing the gospel or for being genuinely ignorant of the Bible. Though people go after and accumulate what they would rather want to hear and deceive themselves or be deceived. This is a sin issue, the heart of man. That is why many bring God down to our level for examination, presuming Him to be like His creatures, wavering in His ways, to a condition in the FLESH. This is sinful and ignorant of what He has revealed about Himself in His Word. The primary means of communicating to mankind about Who He is, and who we are as His creatures. They crucified Jesus for this. They hated Him because He testified that their deeds were evil.
Many can not stand the law of God because it requires “too much” of us, we normally hate someone being an Authority over us, and are not happy to be in submission to a God we claim to worship and love in heart soul and mind, we fundamentally hate His absolute Sovereignty over all things and His freedom over all of creation. Yet He continues to restrain the evil hearts of men and offers His empty hand of Grace, to an obstinate rebellious people who wish to not have Him in their thoughts, but instead they create a god after their own image, an idol that looks just like them. We cannot even see what He sees as we are the ones in darkness over the things that are hidden deep inside our hearts which MIGHT resurface every now and then when God continues to reveal Himself through the conscience, in creation, through suffering... The Bible is clear that people go to hell on their own volition to sin, their OWN sins for rejecting God. Romans 1-3, mankind knows the God they resist, they suppress the truth in unrighteousness, since everything that is clearly seen is made out of that which is not seen, all of creation clearly testifies that there is a God without Whom we can know nothing. Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure-who can understand it?
I, the LORD, search the heart;
I test the mind
to reward a man according to his way,
by what his deeds deserve.
We have broken a infinite Holy standard and God’s Law can not stay broken. There needs to be and will be justice as He can not change as is not like the waves of the sea.
Isaiah once said:
18Woe to those who draw iniquity with cords of deceit
and pull sin along with cart ropes,
19to those who say, “Let Him hurry and hasten His work
so that we may see it!
Let the plan of the Holy One of Israel come
so that we may know it!”
20Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who turn darkness to light
and light to darkness,
who replace bitter with sweet
and sweet with bitter.
The fool says in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt; their acts are vile.
There is no one who does good.
2The LORD looks down from heaven
upon the sons of men
to see if any understand,
if any seek God.
3All have turned away,
they have together become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.
4Will the workers of iniquity never learn? -Psalm 14
The Bible clearly says that we are born fallen sons and daughters in Adam (head of mankind), we see the effects. And we are unable to keep on doing good and never sin. The heart of man is only evil continually. Satan and his workers are disguised, we fight not against flesh and blood...
So if you remain in a condition of spiritual deadness, then any “sacrifice” to God will not be pleasing to Him from a position of rebellion. All our righteous deeds are like filthy rags... it is not of our own selves but “In Christ” a thousand times throughout the New Testament.
Jesus came to seek and save the “lost”, the “sick”, not the ones who presume themselves to be “healthy” in need of no physician. There is a deeper meaning to what it really means to be humbled before God. The giving up of oneself (everything) through repentance and faith, not OF works, but it is gift of God so that no one may boast. There is no other name under heaven by which you must be saved. If there is no hell, then there is no righteous Judge, no ultimate justice or hope of future to really look forward to, and no need for the gospel. Jesus then suffered and died for nothing, so did the Diciples, everyone else who ever went out and offered their lives for the gospel and others till this present time. There is then no reliable testimony either, and you have made yourself the authority and standard of Truth.
Though Jesus is the Way the Truth and The Life to be made right - in order to stand before a thrice Holy God.
@@africandaisy.3 it isnt teue that without hell there can be no righteousness judge, nornis it accurate to say that Jesus the disciplines died in vain if there is no hell. I don't see ho you come to that conclusion. I have heard many people teach that "hell" is merely a separation from God and the lose of eternal life. You quoted a lot of scripture but not really any which refute this idea. I feel like many scriptures are misinterpreted and the American way of Christianity has really interpreted the Bible in certain incorrect ways in order to push their agendas. I have a hard time believing that a loving God will send people to burn in a lake of fire for eternity. I have yet to hear any response which convinces me otherwise.
Given time more people will discover that many of our medieval interpretations didn't reflect what the original biblical text meant. Rob just found that earlier and remains courageous. And not alone.
ask him a question but don't let him talk
God grants those who deny him their wish or belief. They have the option if they want to believe in him and have a relationship. If not then they may go. Hes never begged for love and honestly it should be a solid lesson for all of us
They barely let Rob talk. This is a terrible clip. Super unfair.
Torture is not Holy, no matter you spin it!
Be courageous and seek the truth about the myth of hell, and how it got into church doctrine!
The truth will set you free, but there are those in powerful places in the churches that will make you pay the price for finding it!
Rob Bell has found it, and is willing to pay the price for others to find it too!
I notice that they never complain about 'everlasting life' which is the exact same word for 'everlasting punishment.'
Greek word G166 is the same 'Eternal or Everlasting" that describes Eternal life, but it also describes Eternal fire and punishment (Matt 18:8, 25:41, Mark 3:29, II Thess 1:9) How can people be eternally punished if they are no more? Also the "worm" never dies. Is 66:24."
Rob like others blame God when every single breath they take they can repent and humble themselves and be rewarded for ever in Jesus Christ. Yet they blame God for the punishment when it is US who choose to live away from God.
Jonah 2:6 is very interesting. Jonah also says that he was trapped behind the bars of earth as well. That obviously was not true either. It seems that Jonah was on his death bed (swallowed and wrapped in seaweed) and was dying in his rebellion against God, he was poetically saying that he was doomed forever (which he was) until God heard his pleas and rescued him.
To take this one verse and make a doctrine out of it when there are multiple verses to the contrary is short sighted at best and a demonic deception at worst. blessings
archangel, i get it, i really do. G166 is an adjective which means, perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):-eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began). the noun it is modifying is G165 which means properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):-age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). have fun sorting that all out, eh?
regarding the scriptures you referenced... cutting off our feet or hands will keep us out of hell instead of the sacrifice of jesus christ? people are going to be punished eternally for not giving hungry people something to eat? or for not giving thirsty people something to drink? or for not taking in a stranger? or for not clothing someone who's naked? or for not looking after someone who's sick? or for not visiting someone in prison? how many of these works must i do in order to escape hell fire, and how many times? and if attributing a work of the holy spirit to an unclean spirit is a sin worthy of eternal torment in hell, i imagine there's a heck of a lot of people heading exactly there. blessings to you, too.
You are not even somewhat decent at the comprehension of logic are you? Yes, we very well can blame god even though we can still "repent." I didnt ask to be born qnd subjected to these rules. God forced me to be here. Now since i don't believe the magic wooshoo book, i gotta be tortured for forever for it, when i never asked or agreed to be a part of it? What type of fucked up sense of logic do you have? God could very well make all those who would go to hell just dissapear into non existence. But your god is a bloodthirsty sadist, who loves to see those who dont appease his ego suffer for an insanely stupid long time. Don't blame humans for not accepting "the word" when its filled with bullshit like hell and none of us asked to be here in the 1st place.
The wage of sin is death. If it's anthing else, the bible contradicts.
Eternal punishment, is eternal DEATH, not eternal PUNISHING.
I find it irritating that "I don't know" is no longer acceptable language for Christians to use. The man is simply trying to figure this whole thing out and does not need to be criticized
Well with his "trying to figure things out", it's sad to know he's taking people down the wrong path along with him. Let you yea be yea, and your nay be nay.
The wrong path being uncertainty? Bell has doubts about some aspects of the Bible. Like we all do. He should not be criticized or encouraged for expressing those. In the same way we shouldn't be judging him for being honest about how he feels. we all got sin buddy
My friend, while people have "questions" as it relates to the Bible, you don't question what it says. The Bible is CLEAR what God says about the subject(s) in this particular video. It's not to be like a child who, when his dad says "No", he then goes to his mom in hopes she'll tell him what he wanted to hear.
You study to shew thyself approved, NOT to try and take down eternal truths and add your 2 cents to it & try to explain things away. Listen, the Word says, "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither my ways..."
Granted, truth is hard to swallow some times, but this guy (Bell) once DID stand WITH and FOR the Truth, but he simply has turned. God has not moved, this fellow has.
I won't belabor the point, nor will I take the time to read/respond to any rebuttal. RUclips is certainly not the forum. So let our lights shine that men may see our good works and glorify the Father...for the night cometh when no man can work.
Ya know...I didn't even read your rambling and babbling to be honest. I saw that there were, what...SEVENTY LINES OR SO?!? I'm sure it was off topic and missed the mark by a mile or two. Don't bother to reply...I won't view it, unless you feel the need to stroke your weak ego.
I'm always amused how quickly Christians resort to ad hominem attacks when somebody attacks them. For all the scripture being paraded around here, everyone seems to be ignoring one of the most famous: turn the other cheek.
"I could never torture people endlessly, especially my own children. How can you say that God will do that to His children? This seems hideous. You make God look like a monster worse than Hitler, not a loving Father Who would even die for His enemies!"
"If Hell is real and the greatest part of humanity went there, how could you HONESTLY say that 'Love NEVER fails?' Seems like Love fails most of the time according to your understanding of things." (I Cor. 13:8)
In Love I would just say this.. it is my biblical understanding that God is LOVE, He is HOLY and JUST....In Him there is NO EVIL or SIN...Heaven cannot have sin abiding in it. God gave a way out of Hell...JESUS...if people reject Jesus when they've been given a chance (sometimes several chances) to accept Him as Lord and saviour of their lives, they basically choose their own doom. We cannot say we wouldn't do this or that We are not God, how could we possibly understand His ways? He formed us from the dust and His ways are higher than our ways. Of course we don't want to think of our children or relatives and friends who don't want to know Jesus suffering in this way. But I ask you this? If we believe in ETERNAL life with Jesus (my understanding of this is forever with our Lord) then why would the ETERNAL in eternal punishment have a different meaning?..... remember the brutality and suffering that Jesus took on and died from for our very souls to save us...Jesus spoke and warned us more about Hell than he talked about Heaven. We are living in the last generation and deception is rife. We need wisdom and discernment, the enemy comes to steal, kill and destroy and also masquerades as an angel of light. God Bless you precious sister ✝️🙏☺️ X
@@inchristalone9305 God gave us a "way out of hell"? Like a get-out-of-jail-free card? Why not just not create hell in the first place?
I'm sorry, but the underlying principle of conservative Christianity - "I love you so much that I shall create an eternal torture chamber for you but allow you to possibly avoid going there by sacrificing myself to myself and then insisting you believe it in order to save yourself form something I never needed to threaten you with in the first place" - just seems nonsensical and repugnant to me.
@@inchristalone9305
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1 Timothy 4:10
I love how these two are just trying to make Rob fit in a box so they can dismiss him. So concerned with who’s right and who’s wrong, who’s in and who’s out. Stop acting like you know what happens after life as we know it fades and create heaven on earth as Jesus says. Love your neighbor. Remove violence and hatred.
I think the real question is how did Rob Bell grow his hair back?
The most frustrating thing about this little segment isn't Rob Bells indefensible positions, it's that once he states "I don't think God is like that" The interviewers don't ask him "why not?" ....
Because God is a just God and he wouldn't give an unjust punishment wouldn't you agree?
Jacob gallegly because God is just he will throw the unrighteous, stiff necked sinners who reject the author of life and his ways in lieu of worldly satanic lists into outer darkness. Those who refuse to obey God live in rebellion against his righteousness. When Christ returns he will make peace by destroying the rebellious. So to answer your question, no, God loves justice and would not do such a thing as make the righteous endure the unrighteous in his kingdom. Repent while you still can.
Jesus is Unstoppable So you don't agree that God is just.
Jacob gallegly So you ignore what I wrote just as what God wrote in the Bible.
1 Corinthians 6:9 9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
Jesus is Unstoppable Your not understanding me i didn't ignore anything. I can see where this is going be blessed my friend.
I believe Rob is right to consider the nature of God in the interpretation of eternal torment. To many Christians thoughtlessly believe God will endlessly torture unbelieving mankind and some flippantly make statements about it as if it is what God desires to do to a person for not believing. The Jews; for the most part; do not believe; yet God; according to Paul; will save "all Israel". The ones (Romans) putting Christ to death; were prayed for by Christ...He asked for their forgiveness. Was their "forgiveness" He asked for; to be for just "Friday" or forever? When Christ died for the sins of the world... did He mean for it to just be "potential" or truly effectual? When John the Baptist said "Behold" the Lamb of God" who takes away the sins of the world"; did he mean "who" potentially takes away the sin of the few? Like it or not... Christ died for the sins of the world. Like it or not we are all undeserving; if undeserving then what are we undeserving of. Some will believe(realize) what took place.. while they are here on earth... so realize it later yet are saved because Christ died for all sin. Our "belief" does not legitimize Christ's work. The prodigal son went home not realizing his father had already forgiven him. I know that this isn't what we are taught in Sunday School but this is the truth and it is the good news. I think Catholics changed around the thoughts in early Church history.... this was of no surprise to God. Our weakness is of no consequence in the face of God's strength and His purpose. Some Christians say that if people don't hear the gospel then they will be saved; because they're ignorant... if this is the case then why tell anyone?
@Shorty W and I agree with yours! :)
Amen, ROB BELL!!!!! The Christian concept of Hell is the result of 1800 years of misreading the Bible, not understanding the culture of the people who wrote it and trying to impose Platonic Greek concepts onto the text.
I'm really curious, not just rhetorically: Amen to what, exactly? I listened to that debate. I'm German, so I had no idea who Rob Bell was then. And I really couldn't figure out what his position was.
mawa89g...he's a spin master for sure. Sadly, most folks when then get on/off his ride, they end up as confused as a termite in a yo-yo, or brainwashed into thinking that HIS view (Bell's view), is the right view.
***** Although I disagree with your view on eternity, I admire you for taking a stand and explaining your position. I wish I can say the same for Rob Bell.
The Natural Observer
Isn't eternity outside of the concept of time? As in eternity time doesn't really exist because eternity does not have a beginning or an end. Its literally eternal like God. Eternity is probably beyond our comprehension just like fully understanding God is beyond our ability. Eternity is something like a different dimension or adding a dimension because isn't it infinite?
psalms and romans says nothing can seperate us from Gods love.
if jesus paid our debt of sin by dying for 3 days, but hell is forever, how did he pay our debt at all? he somehow in 3 days managed to pay the debt of infinite time for the untold numbers of lost humanity? it raises questions...
+1zebeljan Do you have a better solution?
Jesus is God and He was able to give payment for sin in period of time, we are humans and we are not capable to do that, our payment is eternal because we would never be able to pay ...
read torah..cos god forgave with no human sacrifice needed
Why are Christians so keen on conscious, eternal torment being true? Its ghastly.
Because without Hell, Christianity (or any other Hell believing religion) dies.
Well because we believe its true. And if someone is in danger of being lost forever wont you tell them?
Who gives Rob Bell the right to say what is relevant and what irrelevant in the Word? What is symbolic or literal? You either believe what it says, or you don't.
"What it says." What does that mean? In English? Greek? Aramaic? Which translation? Original documents (which we don't have), or ones written hundreds of years after the events (which all vary widely)? This is why hermeneutics (look it up) is so important. Even if we had a singular, definitive version, we'd STILL have to take cultural norms into context. And the moment it's open to any interpretation, it's open to all interpretation.
It's not that simple. You look at it a certain way and have your interpretation that you view as objectively true and people need to either believe it or not. The thing is, everyone else is just as convinced as you are of their reading of the bible.
"God is love" 1 John 4:8. God cannot be love and burn people through the ceaseless ages of time for a temporary life of sin.
God is sending people to hell because he's just. When it comes to justice and in this case the justice of God, his love for holiness demands punishment and as we are told in hell forever.
Anyone who believes in eternal conscious torment worships a monster, and a devil. Now the interesting question is whether it is possible that the creator of this universe is in fact a sadistic madman? Looking around, I think to my self, unfortunately maybe so. People do not deserve to go to hell forever for finite sins, and refusing to realize this requires a suspension of all morality.
Markus Rose Hell is not forever. It is designed to destroy evil people and spirits so that peace and safety can finally become a reality for all the inhabitants of planet earth. If you think God is evil for planning the destruction of evil people fire your police department and let the criminals out in your community. See how fast the criminals will turn from their evil ways because of 'your love' for them. If you can't do it, neither can a holy God who believes in free choice. People are free to choose between good and evil. If they choose good they can live because they will not be a threat to the wellbeing, happiness and safety of their neighbor. If they choose evil they must die because their evil tendencies will continue to bring harm to their neighbors and a loving God cannot allow that continue forever. A wise man once said "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke
Lea Leandre Hell does not exist. Show me in scripture to back up your statement, and if you use anything from Revelation, you'd better be an expert on this symbolic book.
+SwordofManticorE Revelation 20: 14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." I don't have to be an expert at anything. You are free to accept or reject the Gospel of Christ.
do me a favor and don't take to me. I don't waste time on those who have no idea what they are talking about.
GOD HAS TO PUNISH YOUR UNBELIEF IN CHRIST. THAT'S AS SIMPLE THAT IF YOU WERE GOD AND SEVEN POINT FIVE BILLION PEOPLE SPIT IN YOUR FACE DAY IN AND DAY OUT... WOULD YOU REACH? AND HOW? 100% GUARANTEE YOU WOULD PUNISH SUCH BEHAVIOR, AND THAT IS WHY GOD WILL PUNISH YOU, EXCEPT YOU LOVE AND WORSHIP JESUS CHRIST !!!
I started reading Love Wins because I used to watch Nooma videos for Bible study and I loved them, but when this book came out and I found out what it was all about I turned away from Rob Bell believing that he obviously didn't know enough to be teaching. Anyway, I found the book at the library and thought that I would give it a read so that I could properly refute it the next time someone talked to me about it. But instead I find myself agreeing with him on a lot. Not everything, but a lot.
It's clear he doesn't know or understand his Bible, not in a deeper sense. He struggles to answer point blank the questions posed to him. He becomes visibly agitated. At no time doesn't he quote Scripture to support his view. He's going by his emotions - what he wants God to be like - rather than what the Scripture says God is like. It doesn't matter what Rob Bell wants God to be like; God is God and He has revealed Himself in the Bible. If God says 'eternal', He means 'eternal'.
garbage..it matters nothing what you think either.
go read romans..if you can be bothered cordelia
cordelia, the greek word for eternal/everlasting is G166. it is an adjective which means, perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):-eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
the noun it is modifying is G165 which means properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):-age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). have fun sorting that all out, eh?
"if he were alive to engage in it?"
He is alive and is engaged to you, his bride. You can have your answers after just 3 days of fasting and prayer. The body resists the truth, when you deny the flesh, it will require sustenance and when you convince your mind, under duress, that sustenance comes from God and is LIGHT, the Spirit of God will fly into your center and reside in you long enough for you to see with new eyes. This is how men become prophets. Make the temple ready, accept true love!
Some people in the comments section are saying they didn't let him speak, but my goodness, he struggles just to give a straightforward answer. That's why they were pressing him so much. It's all ambiguous with Bell.
The word “hell” originally conveyed no thought of heat or torment but simply of a ‘covered over or concealed place.’ In the old English dialect the expression “helling potatoes” meant, not to roast them, but simply to place the potatoes in the ground or in a cellar. The old English dialect is what was spoken when the King James Version was being translated. - Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, unabridged, under “Hell."
This more accurately describes mankind's common grave which at a future time will be thrown into the "lake of fire." Revelation 20:14
Thanks for keeping it simple
I have real, actual amazement that people proclaim themselves to BE Christian, and refuse to know their Bible more intimately than any other thing on earth, except for, possibly, their spouse.
Rob Bell openly lies on this video, in this live interview (rime mark 0:39-0:46)
Here is the only time Olam is used in Jonah:
Jon 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
Jonah is not speaking of time, but of the vastness of the expanse of the deep, it just goes on forever Yes it is used in hyperbole, but it is correctly used in the meaning that one, as an individual, cannot see its end.
Jonah does NOT as Rob Bell claims, say that he was in the belly of the fish forever.
buzzbbirdIt clearly states that the "earth and her bars was about me
forever"..Not three days, but forever. He was in that environment,
"forever". So you can take a tape recorder and record yourself saying "
I'm lying about Rob Bell being a liar..." and play it back to yourself a
few times or perhaps..forever.
***** LOL
It CLEARLY states...
You do not KNOW what the Hebrew word's DEFINITION IS, thus to YOU, there is NO clarity!
H5769
עלם עולם
‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956;
properly concealed, that is,
***the vanishing point; ***
generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.
Job is NOT speaking of TIME!
buzzbbird What the Hebrew denotes is "what is hidden" and therefore is used to describe time with an undefined or uncertain beginning or end. Therefore it does not necessarily mean "time without end", but rather a period of time of which we may not know the end. So, for example, it can be used to refer to the length of a person's life. Rob Bell is correct in his exegesis. However we understand the word 'olam, it is clear from the context of Jonah chapter 2 that this concept of 'eternity' operates within a time frame of three days. The 'eternal' experience Jonah had came to an end. I don't think anyone can possibly dispute that from the text!
Al Gray you are a lying idiot
buzzbbird Thank you for showing your true colours. Your insult reveals your true spiritual state, and demonstrates for all the world to see the moral, spiritual and intellectual bankruptcy of fundamentalism. May God have mercy on your soul.
Indeed, God exercises much greater mercy and patience than I do. I don't think that Rob questions that God will judge sin, only whether the nature of that judgement will be active punishing eternally.
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels....
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Never mind your insults but anyway, ya you are the greatest theologian/prophet/seer of all time. 2000 years of church history and finally you have arrived to straighten everything out. whew! what a relief.
The real question is: does Adrian Warnock WANT people to suffer intense agony forever? If he does, then he is a psychopathic sadist, and if he does not, then he is, by implication, claiming to be more merciful than the God he believes in, which, of course, is blasphemy. Of course, fundamentalists like Warnock do not fall back on logic, but on their interpretation of the Bible, which they constantly promote as "the only legitimate reading of the Bible". One thing we know from the Bible is that God desires all people to be saved, and His character (and therefore His will) do not change for all eternity. Therefore God, by His very nature, is calling all people through all eternity to repent. It therefore must be possible to repent while in hell, otherwise God's eternal will is undermined. The ridiculous and nonsensical idea proposed by some evangelicals, that the damned have no hope because God wills that they should have no hope, while at the same time not wanting them to be damned, is just a straightforward, blatant contradiction. The whole reason why hell is a place of conscious torment is because free will cannot operate without consciousness. God allows them consciousness, because He allows them free will to repent (and they are tormented by their own evil, and not by the will of God). Otherwise there is no need to keep these people in a state of consciousness and to do so is an act of utter sadism.
Al Gray The real question is what Adrian Warnock wants???
you are a fool!
buzzbbird The one sure way to discern when someone's argument is weak, and they have no evidence to support their claims, is when they resort to personal attacks on those who challenge them. They think that such attacks will compensate for and hide their false position. Thankfully not all of us are fooled by this tactic. And, of course, God is not fooled either.
So thank you for confirming my position by exposing the weakness of your own!
YOU are the weak positioned person here by asserting that it is what Adrian Wornock wants, rather than speak to scripture, and identifying a fool does not bolster the fool's position, you are a fool!
buzzbbird Again, I can only thank you for the childish insults, because it simply confirms my position. If you had a decent argument, you would use it, but the fact that you resort to insults just demonstrates that you know that you have no argument. No sane person reading these comments will be taken in by your assertions. If you would care actually to provide an argument and some evidence, then we might be able to have a sensible discussion.
Insult me as much as you like. I will simply smile when I read these absurd comments, because it shows that your position has collapsed. It really is very amusing!
Al Gray Gotta love your self righteous hypocrisy. but that is ok, nothing anyone CAN say to you will be considered BY you as real, unless they fully agree with what you already believe, whatever that may be. whatever it is, however is not scriptural, as you have already shown. BTW, denying that I have not supported my stance is called lying. So we may review, you are a liar, a hypocrite, a heretic and a fool.
You will love to cry insults, but the truth is never an insult, it is simply the truth.
Since truth is not something that interests you and is not part of your agenda, you get no more precious time and energy from me. You may ALSO proceed on your way to the lake of fire, as well as the Catholic who has decided to come against truth.
@DMLDisciple u are completely right. Being a Christian is all about Jesus. The reason we are debating this subject right now, is because Rob Bell believes that God will win the hearts of everyone in the end.That means that it doesn't matter if you are a christian or not while you are alive. It means that no matter what you do on the earth, after you die, God will still save you in the end. That is why we are debating this, since Rob Bell is supposed to be an influential Christian
Well that was slanted... My impression is that Rob Bell tries to take an open minded approach. Most religious leaders will throw you against a wall metaphorically speaking for saying "I don't know". He doesn't know, none of us really do know for sure, it's based on faith. He's asking questions because our faith is a very personal thing. We need to ask the same questions he is of ourselves and answer them for ourselves the speak to other people in our lives whom we trust. We have been given logic, reason, faith, and family. Utilize them, don't just jump to snap judgements and don't let anyone else force you into them either. Take the time to think about things and discuss them.
Or you can just simply believe the Bible for what it says - and and accept that God knows something more than you know - that is why he put it there in the first place.
Kaj Avila With all due respect, I have to agree with Benjamin Van Dyke . It's not a matter of whether you believe in the Bible or not but the fact that God's ways are higher than ours, it most certainly means that there are some parts or details that we simply don't understand. So asking questions, not to question God but to wonder and seek to know more about Him, is natural and even good. In my humble opinion.
Kaj Avila You also can't seem to get your head around the fact that the bible was NOT written in ENGLISH. Rob Bell tirelessly attempts to point out the gap between what was said in 33 A.D. and what is said in English today, yet smug self assured, indoctrinated drones like you refuse to hear any of it.
It does NOT matter because God says in his word that he will precerve his word forever! So, if God is able to create everything from nothing he can surely give us his word just the way he wants it - in english and every language on the earth.
The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
(Psa 12:6-7)
-This verse tells us that his word is perfect and we dont need someone messing with it and tell us that it "means this instead"...Hell means hell, forever means forever etc...
If you cant fathom this I feel sorry for you that you cant hold the word of God above what people THINKS it says.
"Sola Scriptura" is a great attitude to have...
Kaj Avila It is your opinion that the bible is non-negotiable, and that is an opinion that I will respect even if I do not agree. My opinion is that the bible is up for reasonable interpretation especially within a group of people from different backgrounds which can bring out meanings and understandings that one individual would never come to. Reality is reality, but we all perceive reality from our own perspective...
In other words, a logical, factual sentence could have multiple meanings even in this day and age and would be open for interpretation. I have found that the wisdom in the bible has so much more to glean when approached from different perspectives.
And I surely see reason for choosing God beyond avoiding hell. I absolutely do. I'm trying to decompose Rob's idea and find out if it has flaws, but then I realize that it's a huge waste of my time, I should just read the bible if I want to learn. Not only that but I'll never convince anyone on here anyways, and vice-versa. So from here, God bless you Sarah Agholor, it seems you know that the most important thing is to follow Christ. I hope you always do and let him bless you.
Rob Bell is calling Jesus a liar by saying God is not like that... sin separates us from God.... period. Show me a verse where it says you suffered enough I'll let you in heaven now. we have one chance to get it right and that is life on earth. Jesus is our get out of jail free card and we just have to accept him. if you don't then you are separated from God. you cannot get around Jesus being the only way to God. there is only one path and only one life to get it right. that's the bible in a nutshell.
go read romans
that is Not the bible in a nutshell,,go actually read it
"For I am convinced that there is nothing that can separate us from the love of God..."
"We were alienated from God IN OUR MINDS..."
Yikes. Seems like we made up this whole illusion of separation and that it never really existed.
Wrong.. do some searching in a Greek Lexicon. Jesus didn't say "hell". Hell is not of God; it's false doctrine.
If that were true, Rob is better than God and more worthy to be in his position.
"Lies Exposed & Truth Revealed" is a must for all Christians along with your Bibles
It's frustrating that Bell refuses to answer a simple yes and no question repeatedly through the entire interview.
not just sending to hell but maintaining a punishment on people for all eternity, which may suggest that God's wrath lasts forever, which is counter to scripture.
I don't think Rob Knows what He believes......
John Grimes "If any man thinks he stands let him take heed lest he fall." Getting an engrain teaching stripped away isn't an easy thing. It happened to me also.
@@theresnohell3144 there is a hell.
Do you mean? There is no eternal, as in everlasting punishment in hell or in the lake of fire.
The one thing that I know for sure is.....I don't know enough to condemn anyone for eternity. I believe that, as scripture says, "every knee will bow" to Christ in the end. If, knowing fully who Christ is, you still reject Him, I can understand that being separated from Him forever could be interpreted as eternal torment.
This individual is a blasphemer of truth and devourer or the
innocent. He will haplessly lead those who follow him into a world of destruction.
He is a wolf among the sheep and is in collusion either knowingly or
unknowingly with the destroyer.
clueless
evan, the greek word for eternal/everlasting is G166, which is an adjective which means, perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):-eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
the noun it is modifying is G165 which means properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):-age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). have fun sorting that all out, eh?
I read a review of his book on Amazon that I think has a lot of truth. Some people search for truth by looking for answers and once they 'have the answers' then they are done. Rob Bell asks questions and sees the search for the truth as a series of questions and the end is not necessarily known.
This guy can't answer a single question with a straight answer.
Except that you missed the context. The context of Jonah 2 is described in the very first verse of the chapter, "Then Jonah prayed to the LORD from the inward parts of the fish."-Jonah 2:1
This book came out in 2011...in 2019..,., this seems like a dumb conversation.
Now the Argument is "If Jesus spent three days and three nights in "HELL" for us then those that are to go to Hell shouldn't spend any longer... We can reason it every which way, yet the bottom-line is that if it weren't so bad, Christ wouldn't have had to suffer nor stress the importance of Salvation.
Rob Bell is just asking questions.
Yup
"The punishment for those who reject Christ will be worse in hell than for the sinner who never heard the gospel. The more times you're exposed to Christ and reject, the worse your torment will be"
Revelation 14:11
11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
Don't agree with everything Rob Bell says, but I love that he is not afraid to ask these kinds of questions. What's sad is that he has been crucified by evangelicals for this.
Mighty big assumption there. I only listed Death as a candidate for Hell and not as the endpoint of Life or Consciousness. The reports of those died also include mentions of a place like or similar to Hell. Now the question then becomes; is Hell a place or something that we create for ourselves rather than a place God sends us? Can we send ourselves into separation from God? If so, is it eternal or only temporary?
if you cant say yes Rob Bell...you're a universalist
Eternity is outside of time. It is intensity of experience now. The spiritual dimension is outside of time. That doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit doesn't have presence with people in time.
you can know the heart of God but the mind is well beyond our capacity. The heart of God is revealed through the Holy Spirit - "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God"
Those are awesome points Brad. I read both of your comments and my replies are in this one comment.
To me, as fault as my reasoning may be, it seems that Rob is not judging God but rather our conception of God. While that may seem like a weak answer, it really reaches deeper to what it means to think about and try to understand God.
Truth is we can't. Yet we all carry a preconceived of who God is. That seems to be the nature of what Bell is trying to do.
I have been uncomfortable with 'Eternal Hell' for a long time. People whom I shared my faith with were always questioning the love of God and a punishment that lasts eternity.
I have come to ask those questions myself and find myself after careful study of believing, like Rob Bell, that at the end of all things, God will 'annihilate' or remove that which gives people life, namely His Spirit. God breathed on Adam and he 'became' a living soul. Study for yourselves and then ask questions.
Hell is a state we create for ourselves when our unloving acts overshadow our acts of love. when we are conscious of our actions to others, it will help us in achieving our spiritual growth. hell is a place where the emotions of what we did on earth hunt us, it's a place of regret remorse, we will escape it when we go through those emotions, feel remorse for how we treated others and then ask for help. Nobody judges us when we die, after our life review, we judge ourselves because we will see
I have yet to see an interview where Rob Bell is even in the same zip coed as honesty. when asked a yes or no question, he will NEVER, EVER answer it.
buzzbbird The reality is that difficult questions of theology cannot often be reduced to simple 'yes' or 'no' questions. It is incredibly naive to think that the ways of God can be reduced to simple formulas. Perhaps Rob Bell refuses to give in to this simplistic binary thinking, because he is actually more honest than the damnationist evangelicals (who frankly seem so desperate to convince themselves that most people are going to hell. Why is this, I wonder? They say it is because God apparently states that this is the case, but I suggest that they cling to this particular theology of sadism in order to affirm their own deep-seated misanthropy. Pride, after all, hates the love of God).
Al Gray WOW, I just have to say that your response in nothing but wordy stupidity.
theology of Sadism?
Sorry, Theology of SEXUAL GRATIFICATION VIA CAUSING PAIN AND SUFFERING TO OTHERS???
That, of course is what Sadism is.
Rob Bell refuses to EVER give a straight answer on ANYTHING, EVER!
He is a false Christian, rather a servant, minister of Satan.
Evangelicals are not a group that damns, but wishes to save FROM Damnation, via preaching the Gospel, the GOOD NEWS that each and every man CAN avoid hell.
Binary thinking?
Some questions are exactly yes or no, when honestly posed.
Is Hell permanent?
Yes or no are the only true answers. One can describe HOW one ARRIVES at one of those answers, but the answer is 'binary'.
WILL everyone eventually become saved?
Yes or No?
No other answer exists and explaining a position or the arrival at the position is not the answer.
buzzbbird Actually, if you bothered to listen to the interview without being blinded by your prejudices, you will see that Rob was absolutely straightforward. Firstly, he refused to answer a loaded question, because he wanted to establish whether the questioner and himself were on the same wavelength in terms of the definitions of words. This is a completely honest way of ensuring that there is no misunderstanding. That is why he brought up the question of how the Bible defines 'eternal'. He was then cut off by the interviewer who then posed two questions - one to Rob and the other to Adrian (with Adrian not answering the question posed to him, although maybe he did later in the part of the interview not included in this video. Also Adrian refused to answer Rob's last question of the video, whereas Rob gave a straight answer).
When asked whether he thought "God was like this" (i.e. he tortures people eternally for finite sins) he said "NO". Well, that sounds like an extremely straight answer to me! Furthermore, that answer is completely biblical, because the Scripture is absolutely crystal clear that God does not desire to punish any person eternally. If they are punished in the age to come, it is simply a consequence of their own unrepentance, and nothing to do with the fundamental nature of God. The 'evangelicals' seem to want a God whose mercy does not endure forever, who is a schizoid character who loves people one minute and hates most people the next, who has lied when his word states that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever", who enjoys seeing people suffer (and therefore lied when he states that he has no pleasure in the death of him who dies), whose mercy does not triumph over judgment, and whose Son only died for those who had the opportunity to believe in him, rather than objectively (and therefore in a legally valid way) for all people.
And let us not forget that the Scripture states that God has "confined all under sin that He might have mercy on ALL". The idea that the God of everlasting mercy and unconditional love just gives up on a person is so ridiculous and laughably illogical it is almost beyond belief. God's very nature is such that he does not desire any to perish. Therefore God is calling all people to repent forever. The only people who could possibly be tormented forever are those who simply refuse to repent. It is not because they fell foul of some religious evangelical small print - a failure which pushed them over a deadline, beyond which God would not accept their repentance. You may want to believe in such a schizoid and fickle (and fake) God, but I would rather believe in the true God of the Bible, who is eternal love.
By the way... I am not a universalist, and neither is Rob Bell. There is such a thing as free will: something evangelicals deny through their absurd notions of "damnation by default" (i.e. people being under the condemnation of God simply because of having been born into a fallen world and therefore infected with so-called original sin - even though no one chose to be infected in this way, or indeed born) and their nonsensical idea of predestination (which even many Arminians subscribe to in practice, through the idea of "predestination by circumstance" - i.e. people who, through no fault of their own, fail to say the magic Christian words before they die, and then go to hell, because they apparently did not "trust in Jesus").
I assume that as someone who believes in hell, that you spend your entire life shouting at every passerby on the street, warning them of their fate? If not, then you either do not take your doctrine seriously, or you have lied to me when you say that you, as an evangelical, are trying to save people from damnation. I have never yet met one single Christian who lives his life in "emergency mode", such that he believes the gravity of his doctrine of hell to the extent that he acts as though it really were true in the way he relates to so called 'non-Christians' (after all, how would you act if you were trying to save people from a house fire? You would be in frantic "emergency mode". And so those who believe in eternal hell by default for all 'non-Christians' should be witnessing to them every waking moment in frantic emergency mode. Anything less than this is pure hypocrisy). And I assure you that my experience of Christianity is very great indeed - especially evangelical Christianity. This proves to me that much evangelical Christianity is deeply deceitful.
Al Gray you are either stupid, ignorant or dishonest or a combination of the three.
OLAM, for instance as used and cited is not temporal, but geographic, this is obvious, yet Bell has NEVER in ANY interview I have EVER seen just given a straightforward answer. and that is that.
buzzbbird Well argued I see! You can insult me as much as you like (after all, the self-righteous humanity-hating Pharisees mocked Jesus Christ Himself, so I am in good company), but it only confirms the rightness of my position. Unless, of course, you would like to start presenting some proper evidence to support your absurd views...
Bell was referring to the commonly mistranslated word "forever" in Jonah 2:6. Is Jonah still in the whale/ Sheol and will be for eternity?
Look, while eternal conscious punishment may seem "ridiculous" for some on here to grasp what do the scriptures say, may I ask? Come now, let's be reasonable and together trace back the origin of hell, first and foremost: "Then He will say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." -Matthew 25:41 ...
As the scriptures would have it, hell was prepared for 1) the devil and 2) his angels, correct? I think we can all come to the final conclusion on this, alone, to be 'amen and amen.' Now, God gave angels freewill and He also gave humans freewill, however, with the angels exclusively God has determined that once an angel rebels against Him that angel will then be cast into everlasting punishment for you see, unlike humans created in God's own image and likeness, angels DO NOT find redemption in Christ. We, on the other hand, are able to find redemption through Jesus Christ, alone. That should make us all stop and consider a minute the following scripture in light of this present reality:
"Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off." -Romans 11:22
I know it's hard to grasp (even for me at times) but the goodness of God lends toward His kindness poured out upon those who continue in His kindness but at the same time it also lends toward His severity poured out upon those who instead, reject His kindness and desire His wrath.
Ultimately, human beings have been shown unmerited favor and grace from God who extends His lovingkindness towards mankind by providing a way out of eternal condemnation and and suffering that quite frankly, the devil and his angels cannot avoid, themselves. Once again, angels CANNOT be redeemed because God has allowed them freewill up until the point they knowingly and willfully choose to use that freewill to cause rebellion instead of continued obedience. Nevertheless, God has allowed for human beings to be able to be redeemed solely through the Person and work of Jesus Christ on the cross at Calvary. Again, take note of the both the kindness and severity of God, friends...
If God were both and unkind and unjust God then He would punish the devil and his angels and turn a total blind eye towards the sins of mankind and punish only Satan and his angels which, in essence, would be completely arbitrary to His own righteousness. Besides, while God is long-suffering in His absolute nature as displayed by the 10 plagues He poured out upon Egypt let us also take into the consideration that God is the origin of freewill and so when He final decides that He's suffered long enough, that's it. God is far too pure an Eternal being to simply let sin go unpunished and therefore if anyone does not receive the gift of Christ's death on the cross for their sin then they remain as children of darkness (and as a result, children of the devil) rather than children of Light.
Hell is real. Hell is eternal. God's provided a way, the only way to avoid hell through Jesus Christ. There is no other way.
+Jesse Hake ..............God purposely intends for ALL to come to repentance according to 2 Peter 3:9 which says, ' The Lord is not (Gk= ou= not, none, nothing) slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not (Gk= me= not, not at all, none at all ) wanting willing ( (boúlomai ("resolutely plan") (planning for, intending,dispose ) anyone (Gk= tis= any one,)(no one ) to perish, but everyone (pantas) to come to repentance'....bingo !..there it is !...no need for any doubt..God intends to bring ALL to repentance... in other words to SAVE ALL, praise God !....
+Jesse Hake ................fact is, There is NO eternal hell…’aionios’ is the Greek wordmistranslated as ‘eternal’ in many Bible translations…'aionios' is the Greek
word for the Old Testament term, 'olam' and 'olam' definitely does not mean
'eternal'...read the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament
which was quoted by the New Testament writers many times so the Septuagint is
authoritative.....'aionios' appears hundreds of times in the Septuagint Greek
translation of the Old Testament, and
does NOT mean 'eternal' in the Septuagint Greek Old Testament...therefore
the Bible does not teach 'eternal punishment'.
jesse, people are going to be punished eternally for not giving hungry people something to eat? or for not giving thirsty people something to drink? or for not taking in a stranger? or for not clothing someone who's naked? or for not looking after someone who's sick? or for not visiting someone in prison? how many of these works must i do in order to escape hell fire, and how many times?
It's almost like they don't know this has been discussed from the beginning of the church by people who knew the original language, and familiar with the customs, and who knew the Apostles or were within a generation or two of them. You have to have an open mind and embrace the Mysteries of God.
God bless you too. I agree that the most important thing is Jesus, and we can fellowship even with our differences of opinion.
Galatians 6: 7 and 8 "Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap DESTRUCTION, whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap ETERNAL LIFE."
Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Eternal here is not the word "olam" which Rob Bell mentions when talking about Jonah. Both "olam" and the Greek noun "aiwn" (aion) may refer in places to an undefined period. Whereas in this quote from Matthew - which refers to hell - the Greek adjective grammatical form is used - "aiwnios" (aionios) - which actually does mean unending, eternal.
Why wasnt hell or the eternal punishment even mentioned in The Old Testament? Thats interesting isnt?
To me the thought of eternal punishment for temporary sin is quite horrible.
Do you mean when you say "We deserve hell " that eternal torture, never ending suffering for all eternity is OK? You mean to say that the 80 yrs or so that a human lives is punishable with billions of years of torture? Is that mercy, love, forgiveness, justice? because that is what God is!
I wonder how many people have judged Rob or called him a “false prophet” but not actually read the book.
I have read the book and there is no other conclusion that can be made. Rob Bell is a heretic
Interesting because the religious leaders in the day called Jesus a heretic so I guess he is in good company.
@MrSavedbylove cont2... it could be: helping a helpless old lady carry her bag; helping a stranded motorist get a fuel; helping a poor homeless man with food, cloth, or shelter; putting smile in someone's face; forgiving someone who offended you,etc. christian creed isn't universal, but love is universal. ask yourself this, what about those who lived without hearing about christ or reading the bible? is favoritism a part of God? why would God favor a religion more than others? God loves us all
God is the Savior of All, especially of those who are believing now - so that in
The Ages to come He may show forth his loving mercies and kindness. Each man is raised up in his own order/rank. Praise God for His marvelous plans!!!
Not to say that annihilationism is entirely out of the picture. We just can't come to that conclusion simply because we aren't content with a God who would eternally punish sinners. To often we try to change the Bible to match our views, rather than changing our views to match the Bible.
Thank you Rod for showing kindness. I believe you know the real Jesus. Why do Christians always think that God is first and foremost about hell. Look at Jesus, did he really want all people to go to hell?
This is not a belief in Universalism. There is only one way and One Person through whom we gain Eternal life and Salvation from sin.
I have struggled with this for some time and even opposed Rob Bell when it first became an 'issue.' It forced me to study the whole issue and somehow have a peace of mind about the whole thing now. It fits perfectly with what I believe and have experienced regarding God's Attributes. Even if we disagree, let us be those who are approved by The word.
I wonder if Rob would waste his time like this in 2020?
For those who think God, is cruel... (He is not, he is perfect: He does as he wills with his creation) For those who think God, is cruel if eternal condemnation is real.. Remember that we believe in a God, who hit the reset button on humanity because he was angry at how corrupt it had become. We do not believe in a mean God, we believe in a Just God, who is Love.
Pity the radio hosts didn't give their guest a chance to answers their multiple questions. Very poor interviewing technique.
Here's how I disproved point one: I took an NRSV bible, KJV bible, RKJV bible, and TWT bible. I laid them out side by side and read through the OT. The word Sheol is mentioned in the each bible 31 times. In footnotes and margin notes, Sheol is translated as Hades, Hell, or the Underworld.
Even if it doesn’t have biblical support. Eternal torment for finite crimes when you never chose to exist is immoral.
I'm so glad I understand the Bible's true meaning. I don't understand how Christians can live with themselves believing the false doctrine of hell forever punishment non stop suffering.
Yeah, my original posting was meant to open up a dialogue concerning both conditional immortality vs. unconditional immortality, and eternal, conscious punishing in the lake of fire vs. the final annihilation of the wicked.
I wanted to see if other Christians thought that conditional immortality, and annihilationism were heretical...because I hold to both as biblical doctrines.
So, we both agree.
God bless you, in Jesus' name.
Worshipping a being that is gonna roast me forever is cool 😎. What an awesome concept ....
If people understood the difference between "hell" and "the lake of fire, which is the second death" most of this confusion and arguing would end. So I'll explain hell, the lake of fire and the fate of the wicked in the reply below. I'll include an explanation of "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death" (Revelation 20:14).
"The wages of sin is death" (the apostle Paul, in Romans 6:23). Paul did not say something like "the wages of sin is eternal life in torment."
Twice in Revelation (21:8 and 20:14,15) we see the ultimate fate of the wicked, those whose names "are not written in the book of life." They are "cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Here is Rev 21:8:
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
We all understand the first death: Paul wrote "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27).
We will be raised from the grave for our judgment. Jesus clearly and plainly taught that all who are in the grave will be raised and judged; here it is in John 5:28,29:
"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
So what is the second death? It is another death (for the wicked) after the judgment; it is death from which there is no further hope of life or resurrection. If you're in the second death, you perish, you're gone, you're non-existent.
Remember John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." We either receive eternal life, or we perish; we either live forever, or we're gone forever. "Perish" in this verse is from the Greek word "apollymi" meaning destroy, be lost, abolished.
Is there anywhere in the Bible that shows the wicked will actually cease to exist? Yes! In Ezekiel 28:13-19 we read a description of Satan, and of Satan's fate. Note the final few words: "thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be anymore":
"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more."
Satan's fate: "Never shalt thou be anymore."
ALL the wicked: Satan, Satan's demonic angels and all wicked men suffer the same fate: "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41). All the wicked go into "everlasting fire" - the "lake of fire and brimstone: which is the second death" as we read earlier in Revelation 21:8. They are destroyed through the second death: they perish, they don't exist any more.
Well, you might think that Satan and the demons are spirit beings and therefore can't die, right? It makes sense - only mortals can die, after all.
But wait just a minute... what about Jesus? He was the Word that was with God "in the beginning" (John 1:1). He was a spirit being. Continuing in John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." A spirit being was made mortal - and then died! Jesus was dead three days and three nights. For Jesus, there was a resurrection to eternal life. Later Jesus said "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death" (Rev. 1:18).
For Satan there will be no resurrection, no hope of life of any kind. Is there any evidence Satan will be made mortal? We just read about Satan (in Ezekiel 28) that God "will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee" and that God will "bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."
Here is Hebrews 2:14, regarding Jesus: "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil."
God will get rid of all evildoers permanently, through death. God will not keep "skeletons in the closet"; He has a better plan than that.
Do you take your trash out to your backyard and beat it with a stick day after day after day, to punish it? Of course not: you just get rid of it. God is neither pathetic nor sadistic. He is a God of both mercy and justice and will simply get rid of the wicked through death.
Rev 20:13 sets the stage for the final judgment:
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."
"Hell" in the above verse is from the Greek word "hades" meaning the grave, the "place" of those who have departed this life (and not yet been resurrected for judgment).
In the future - after the judgment - When all the wicked have been destroyed through death, only those who have received eternal life will be left. They can never die... so death won't happen anymore. Paul wrote about this in 1 Corinthians 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." The verse implies that other enemies would be destroyed - destroyed - beforehand. Death will be destroyed after all the wicked have been destroyed through death.
This is what Revelation 20:14 was talking about when it said:
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
Death will be destroyed: it won't happen anymore. Hell - the grave - will be destroyed, because all will have been resurrected from the grave; no one will be left in the grave, awaiting a resurrection and judgment. Being in "hell" - in the grave awaiting a resurrection and judgment - won't happen anymore.
Essentially, to be "cast into lake of fire" means to be destroyed. For the wicked, the destruction comes through the second death. For events and situations, such as death and hell (in the grave awaiting judgment), they won't ever happen again.
After the judgment, Revelation 21:4 describes life for those who remain, who have eternal life. Notice what is says about death:
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."
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To us today, the word "everlasting" has the connotation or suggestion of actively ongoing... like a "perpetual" motion machine. So when people read that the wicked suffer everlasting punishment, they assume that it means ongoing, active torture.
Perhaps the word "permanent" would help. "Permanent" is never used in the King James, but I believe that is often what was intended when "everlasting" and "eternal" are used. For example, we consider capital punishment to be permanent punishment: it is final and irrevocable. It is "everlasting" in the sense that it is permanent: we can't undo it. It is not everlasting in the sense of being ongoing, perpetual torture.
Once the wicked get the second death, they don't know anything any more. They'll have no consciousness and cannot experience torment, or anything else. They will not even "be" any more. Existence, and any hope of existence, will have ended: no more "they."
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Think about this: those who believe we have an immortal soul have to presume we all live forever in some form or place... perhaps even in eternal torment. So they have to interpret all the scriptures about the second DEATH and PERISHING as though they somehow mean living forever... thus the tempting pagan doctrine of the immortal soul has become a stumbling block to their understanding of the truth.
Here's what the pagan philosopher Plato wrote, about 400 BC. See if this doesn't sound like what many Christians today have been misled to believe:
"Do we believe that there is such a thing as death?... is this anything but the separation of soul and body? And being dead is the attainment of this separation; when the soul exists in herself, and is parted from the body and the body is parted from the soul... the soul is in the very likeness of the divine, and immortal, and intelligible, and uniform, and indissoluble, and unchangeable; and the body is in the very likeness of the human, and mortal, and unintelligible, and multiform, and dissoluble, and changeable." (Plato, in "Phaedo")
whatgodwants.info
+The Bible Says I didn't quite understand from what you wrote, exactly what you believe is the "second death". Are you saying that it is the destruction of the human spirit? In other words we cease to exist? If that is the case then yes it would put to rest the very topic of "eternal" torment as punishment for our sins.
John Blackmouth
That's right: we cease to exist. "Once the wicked get the second death, they don't know anything any more. They'll have no consciousness and cannot experience torment, or anything else. They will not even "be" any more. Existence, and any hope of existence, will have ended: no more "they."
+The Bible Says I'm not 100% sure if that's an accurate view but it sure seems to be the correct interpretation. I used to believe that He simply forgets about us. We are eternally separated from His consciousness. If He no longer remembers us and no one else does either and we are eternally alone, it's as if we do not exist. The very reason why we even are important or even have an existence is because He wanted us to. It's His divine love that gives us any worth at all. That's just a thought I'm not saying that's what happens. I have to study more on this topic before I adopt any idea as truth. Thanks for the reply.
+John Blackmouth
I understand where you're coming from.
Remember Romans 6:23: "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord". Eternal life is a gift from God; eternal life is NOT something we inherently possess!
This corresponds to John 3:16,17... we'll perish unless we receive eternal life. "Never shalt thou be anymore" (Ezekiel 28:19).
Who was the original liar that told Adam and Eve "thou shalt not surely die" (Gen 3:4)? The concept that we have immortal souls that live forever - somehow or somewhere - is pagan in origin as I pointed out in the quote from Plato in my original post. The Bible's approach is different: we don't have eternal life unless God gives it to us. If God doesn't give us eternal life, we don't have it: we perish, we cease to exist.
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1 Timothy 4: 10
The date of this video was published on the same day that David Wilkerson died. Im not over spiritualising this, its simply ironic that one of God's generals dies relatively unnoticed whilst Rob's messages 'shakes' the debating world. A 5 minute clip from Wilkerson will shake your soul and give you solid truth!
May I suggest that we examine together why Bell can be seen as unbiblical. It may seem like a detour but it will provide a way for us to move forward eventually.
Go fast & pray & God will give you the answers to your questions.
If universalism is true then no one needs religion, and moral law can be completely dismissed in this lifetime, crime pays (if you get away with it), and GOD becoming a man to pay the price for sin doesn't change us in any way because we can continue living our lives however we wish to with no remorse, with no regard for life or for others or for GOD in Heaven. Really??
Wouldn't there need to be eternal life in order to experience eternal torment. John 3:16 says only those who believe in Jesus are the ones who get eternal life. At the same time, the Bible says that there is a hell for those who don't want to live. So hell must put them out of their misery. Hell causes them to die, not to live. It doesn't say anywhere in the Bible that people are tormented eternally. I believe finding the clues of truth in the Bible, to answer these kinds of questions we all ask, reminds us of a life-loving, compassionate God.
Our salvation and love of Him is more serious to Jesus than our sins, this is why he is able to forgive ANY sin. Who have you murdered if he has redeemed them, who have you tortured if their wounds are healed? So we must face the living God! This is our destiny, he is a real Lord over us having defeated death itself. The gospel is the mission to turn us from sins and make us presentable on that day, simple, beautiful, and just.
The main focus is being missed here, when you go to Hell and are separated from God for all Eternity THAT IS THE TRUE LOSS IN GOING TO HELL, Separated from all LOVE, and Good totally,no relief, no Laughter, No real life. I know I don't want to go there. I LOVE JESUS MY GOD AND MY LORD!!!!
The issue with this topic is there is more proof of ultimate reconciliation than annihilationism in the bible and really nothing on forever constant torment. The issues we do have of hell are very obviously taken from other religions.
Why is it wrong to question? To doubt? I think the struggle is between a finite view and what if. Can we really, truly ever know.....
Their are errors in the Bible translations , yes, even the King James Version.. for example, why would you use the word CHURCH in the king James when the original language used the words CALLED OUT ONES? This has produced hundreds of years of confusion and misunderstanding. It gets people thinking of a building instead of a people group. In my opinion it was done on purpose to control. The same thing is done with the word HELL and the words eternal and punishment... why is this so hard to verify and understand.. God is redemptive in everything he does. Our western society is not redemptive in our legal system. We have a punitive system that fines and punishes people , that makes it easier to believe God is the ultimate punisher. What you believe about God shapes everything you do. Study it out, get the correct idea about God, better yet, get to know him personally. He's not a bipolar damming grinch.
Our main responsibility is to share and live the gospel thereby pointing others to our Saviour, Jesus. Jesus paid the price so that no one has to and we have to pray and reach others. In my opinion, the moment we eliminate or debate hell, we nullify Jesus' death to save man from God's wrath. 2Corinth 5:21, Romans 6:23.
Rob Bell is simply in search of the Truth of God. I think we all are. If we enter into a relationship with Christ, we have to continually seek him. Yes the bible speaks a lot of God and who he is but so does the world and how people choose to use the gifts of life they've been given. Asking questions seeking answers is part of being human.
With God, all things are possible. So how is it that Salvation Beyond Grave is impossible for God ?
I do wish Bell would settle down more often and say, "Here is what I believe." All of his backpedaling makes him sound like he lacks conviction. That said, he always impresses me with his intelligence and thoughtfulness.
As for Hell, I'm in the C.S. Lewis's camp. God doesn't inflict eternal torment; he wants to save us from it. Hell is a fortress under siege, the last stronghold against God's love and the resurrection, and as Lewis says, "barred from the inside".
Point number five: I have two responses. First, a fallible book does not corrupt the gospel of a loving God. Two: Here's why: A book needs to first be written, then read, then understood, then thought about, then acted on. In that entire process, there's an active human agent in every stage.