How to: Subwoofer Setup & Integration the NPR way.
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- Опубликовано: 5 окт 2024
- Songs Used:
Cherish by Madonna (to test gain/volume)
Put On by Young Jeezy (to test infrasonic bass & phase)
I'm gonna Be by The Proclaimers (to test frequency settings)
Outside The Box by Obsidia (to test integration)
I have setup many subwoofers using this method, here are a few that come to mind:
REL HT1205
REL T5i
SVS PC-2000
SVS SB-2000 Pro
SVS SB-3000
Rythmik L12
Rythmik L22
Rythmik F12SE
Aperion Bravus 8D
Aperion Bravus 10D
Emotiva S10
Emotiva SE8
Emotiva SE12
Bowers & Wilkins ASW608
Velodyne SPL 8 Series 2
Velodyne DPS 10
You got me from the part of "I´m not gonna do that crawling thing as if I was a dog... ". Finally someone with dignity in the subwoofer world, LOL!!
Yeah it just doesn't really work for me :)
@@NemoPropaganda you seem more like order one of each, never settle.
@@exodusvelo mmm, if we're talking food at a restaurant I have been known to order two separate dishes lol... Some stuff I settle on like recently I decided to keep my car, my preamp and amplifiers are good enough, and I love the Buchardt S400 for my primary speakers :)
it took me an evening, but 3 months of weekends fine tuning when the wife was working so I didn't drive her insane getting up and down .... lol. But it was also the first time I really got serious about it and was a complete noob at the process. Plus I found it helped to walk away for awhile and go back with "fresh" listening ears. Kind of like, cleaning your palette. Thus every weekend for quiet some time, I'd find myself getting up and down to tweak it just a little bit here and there. Looking forward to upgrading to an SVS sub and having the app to play with that shit from my listening position.
ah yes, walking away is very important, I should have mentioned that. If you start to get frustrated at least for me it feels like my mind starts playing tricks on me and I have to walk away or "it just sounds wrong" no matter what.
This is a good additional tip. 👍
It all started when RUclipsr Andrew Robinson made a video about how a selection of his "reference" songs should sound like. So it became a challenge for me to calibrate my entire system. I got to say, in the end it was as if I had spent thousands of dollars more on new equipment. If anyone things their stuff isn't up to par, calibrating makes an unbelievable difference. And there would be night where I'd walk away thinking that sound great, only to go back to it the next weekend and say to myself , wtf. So be patient. Cause like I said, after months of little tweaks here and there. With the majority of time fiddling with the subs. It now sounds amazing.
"With or without you" by U2 has been a good one for sub intergration for myself over the years. You'll know straight away if you havn't got the base right on this one.
Thanks for the calibration tips!
I found the SVS app very helpful in calibration the sub to the mains.
I do the following:
1. At SVS app select “Low Pass Filter” disable LFE and set the LP frequency to match the -3dB settings for the main speakers. Select slope in accordance to speaker. SVS recommends 24dB/octave for ported mains or 12 dB/octave default. Later on we can tune it further but these should be the initial settings. (For example my mains have -3dB at 40Hz and they are ported).
2. At the app - chose polarity and set to “Negative”. That’s right we temporarily set the polarity to negative just for calibration.
3. Play one of the RUclips test tone videos for the LP frequency you selected in (1). For example in my case I played a 40 Hz test tone.
4. At the app - slide the the phase from 0 to 180 and stop to the point where the test tone volume is minimal.
5. At the app - increase or decrease volume of the sub-woofer until the test tone volume is minimal.
6. Repeat steps 4, 5 until you hear nothing at your listening point. The tone from the mains and the tone from the sub cancel each other. That means that they are at the same phase and volume but opposite polarity. It is OK ff you can’t get cancellation as long as the test tone volume is minimal. In such case you can tune the LP frequency and slope (step 1) to see how it affects the test tone. The process is iterative. Expect some trial and error iterations. Once you are satisfied proceed to next step.
7. At the app - return the polarity back to Positive.
8. Listen to music and set the volume of the sub-woofer to your liking. You can repeat the steps above for tunings, just don't forget to return the polarity back to positive.
My Mains: Wharfedale Linton Heritage 85
Sub : SVS SB-2000 Pro
Note: Method above assumes no bass management in amp. i.e. mains get the whole range.
Appreciate your effort to write the whole thing
Thank you for that write up, very informative. I also have the Linton Heritage and am considering the SVS PB-1000 Pro
Man is just so chill
Thank you bro, I try to live the chill life.
My fav subwoofer placement,, as absolutely close to my ears as possible. Works 100%.
Iw got 2 x XTZ SUB 12.17 EDGE placed on 2feet high plinths directly behind my sofa/listening place.
Cheers,, 🍻😎👍
Same as that, so impressed how it seems all flooding in from the front of me!!!
@@lucamason8139 Jepp, and one can play the subs with way lower levels,
hence not overpowering the room and it leaves power to dynamics etc etc etc.
I too have my sub near field, and have enjoyed it for years. Going to be redoing my room though and will have to find new placement.
I think I am going to try the crawl method to see where the next best place will be.
I did the crawl! Made the misses happy, may be the only thing that lets me get the second sub! I’m sure she’d like a second show🤣🤣🤣
I have a friend that does the same, he keeps telling me to try putting the sub behind my chair but I'm too lazy to move it all around lol
Thanks for this detailed set-up guide with specific songs. It REALLY helps me know exactly what I am looking for in frequency and volume settings by giving me a specific trac of bass note to tune my sub in using those two parameters. Your discussion let me know EXACTLY what I am "listening for" better that my manufacturer's set.up discussion. THANKS so much!
Glad it was helpful :)
The Proclaimers... That's a great album right there!
For my REL T9x I used the iPhone “Decibel X” set to “C” weight / “slow” response and placed it at ear height in my seating position. I played test tone and heavy bass tracks to determine the phase. Very easy to verify and it eliminates the guessing game.
Decibel X is the most accurate iPhone dB meter, I compared it to my 100dB meter and it was shocking accurate.
Great video.... and all under 10 mins... Loved it....!!!
Thank you dude! Yeah I try to keep them on the shorter side these days unless I really need to add some context.
Ah, fresh music to test..
great set up song selection.. they really helped me
Awesome video once again. Exactly what I did to fine tune my F12. Thanks !
thank you dude!!
@@NemoPropagandaShould I make final adjustments using my AVR bass management or always use the sub’s controls?
@@videoproboston2450 try it out, it just depends, some AVR have really good bass management while others aren't that good. Personally I'm using mine off the pre-outs so I don't have any bass management besides the subs own crossover.
Thank you for making this video. Great explanation and to the point. It will be nice to have a sub with a remote control so I dont have to get up as much to match the volume. 😂
It exists! All SVS subwoofers have a control app for your phone :D
You could put a preamp with a volume remote in between your amp and sub so you have separate volume for the sub, like a bass knob in car audio... I've thought about trying this. My integrated has stereo pre out that I run full range to the sub. If I ran that out to a small pre amp with volume control, then I could adjust gain at the signal... of course a purist would probably scoff at introducing different tonality characteristics from your 2channel amp to this external pre amp but it's mostly bass frequencies... so .. salt to taste.
And of course as nemo pointed out, svs pro subs with app control give you gain remotely through the app!
Thanks for the video! Appreciate your candour :)
I can envision it now - room crawl - gopro's (dual) on your head one facing front one facing your rear as you explain what you're doing. OK NO because that shit is awkward AS F**K. Love the disclaimer at the beginning of the vid. Good show!
Now that would be some serious comedy lol
I'm Gonna Be , good track! Have you ever considered making a video or listing your Subwoofer Test Tracks? One of my favorites, Morph The Cat, Donald Fagen
I've mentioned it here and there but I think it's only relevant if you're intimately familiar with the track. I used to get so annoyed when publications entire review was based on songs I'd never heard of :(.
@@NemoPropaganda Agree, especially long drawn out classical pieces. I like to ROCK!
Try this song on your system, first without a sub, then with the sub, also great for checking that your setup is synced... Amazing..!!! Missing (Acoustic) - Everything but the Girl.
I could not find the acoustic version on Tidal.
@@NemoPropaganda Sorry mate, I got mine from itunes... 🙄
On tidal too.. lol
Like the no bs approach 👌
Thank you bro< I appreciate it!
Went back to this to help me fix some issues I’ve never quite addressed. Thank you so much 🙏🏼 And f$ck all of that sh$t! 😂🙌
happy it was helpful :)
I just bought 2 Rhythmik F18s. They are on back order until the end of the month. I have 2 Klipsch rs115 subs now. I hear I'm in for a revolution. Any thoughts on what to expect?
hmmm, okay so Rythmik is a SQ first design that can still put out tons of SPL, essentially the experience for me with Rythmik subwoofers overall is like the bass is coming from an ink black background, it's fast but not so fast it sounds fake and overly tight. The bass is strong but never muds up the sound or feels heavy on the ears. Essentially it's one of my personal favorites. If you're coming from heavier sounding subs it might take a bit of time to adjust to the Rythmik sound because with Rythmik you will have less pressure on your ears but at first your brain might misunderstand that as less bass but thats the refinement they bring to the table if you listen to Rythmik for like 2 weeks and then go back to your Klipsch I think you will find it impossible to make them integrate. Just remember take time to set them up, it may take you awhile to learn them in your room and don't be scared to reach out to rythmik for setup help BUT don't do that until you've listened to them for at least 2 weeks.
@@NemoPropaganda That sounds what I'm looking for. I played the bass for years and would always look for amps that put out clean, warm, rounded bass as opposed to boomy. Thanks!
Rythmik F12’s extra bell and whistles needs a UMIK mic and REW. Can’t hear much when you tweak with all that stuff. 🤣😂🤣😂
One track I use to finalise my sub is Hotel California from Hell Freezes Over album. The kick drum. Needs to be a ‘chooommm’ sound. Just like at concerts.
For phase, what about playing a single lower tone through a tone generator App. Then you could just walk around your room and easily notice peaks/troughs to tell if you're out of phase.
If that tone is the frequency that shows the phase issue then yes it will work but depending on the room the phase issue could show up in 1 frequency range and not another. In my room it's midbass, when I'm out of phase I lose my midbass between 50-70hz.
@@NemoPropaganda 50-70 hz is considered mid bass now? When does bass show up, -200 hz? I can see it now, “ya? But have you heard...NEGATIVE BASS!?” Cheers
@@kilgoretrout4461 try and remember midbass and many audio descriptors are made up with no clear definition. The best anyone can do when using them is define them to avoid confusion which i have done. Don’t be such an ass, we’re all here for a good time :)
Hi Nemo. I agree on not using the crawl method. That is because the crawl method only works for one frequency. Change the frequency and the null zones shift around in the room. Why go through the effort to optimize for one frequency. The same can be said for the phase, although less frequency sensitive that is a bit more complicated.
You nailed if for me. Place your sub. Make sure there is no blatant phase issues. Then use a bass guitar with good notes that have lots of frequency range to set crossover and gain. I use “Long after you’re gone” by Chris Jones
ooo I've never heard that song, I'll have to give it a listen!
Yes! That song is awesome. The version from "Moonstruck" is the best one. Played it at my father's funeral.
Nemo or anyone else mess with any setup test tracks that aren't specifically music? Things like frequency sweeps or something that helps you identify the crossover point between the speakers and sub, and help you adjust that for
..well..
Synergy. Making sure there is an even transition, both at frequency response and apparent volume in room? I've thought about trying this but I'm already annoyed with the idea of listening to frequency slopes lol. Just wondering if there's something that was produced specifically for sub integration that can get you 90% there quickly from some sort of objective point
mmm, that be kinda hard because real music isn't a single frequency. What sub are you trying to setup?
@@NemoPropaganda that's a good point about frequency tones vs music. I guess that is also relatable to objective measurements vs what sounds good to an individual. I've got the thing dialed in really well from what I can tell with its limitations and current position. Just wondering if there was something to sample, sonically, to focus in on response vs specific music. I'm new, so this work in progress system IS MY REFERENCE, so to speak.
I'm most concerned with the crossover point. Am I to trust my ear, yet, is the struggle in a nutshell. Also I'm realizing that corner placement is probably a must in my small room. I have the sub between my stand mounters and I get it to disappear blend well, unfortunately the lower freq band also disappears completely when I listen up closely, around 6 feet away: near field I suppose. Wondering if smaller woofers would help, this is a single 12". Or clearing out the room so I can place in a corner..
@@erics.4113 everyone's room has null spots (no bass or weak bass). Mine is the same. In my chair bass is great but in the middle of the room there is nothing but I don't sit in the middle of the room so I don't care. Dual subs usually help with nulls as does using REW to really dial in what small movements and adjustments do to the overall frequency response. Personally if it sounds good to my ear I don't care if there is some technically better solution, or a setting/position that would measure better. I just sit back and enjoy :).
@@NemoPropaganda I do sit in middle because I like more direct near field but that's the problem. At the back of room bass is punchy and in middle, gone at certain freq. I also understand that some low freq waves are 17 feet long so I'm barely at the beginning 1/3 of the actual wave. Still.. I'm no closer than I would in car setups and I get punchy dynamics and low end there... so little confused but I'm still experimenting and enjoying it as you said. Nothing will be perfect but I do love my setups currently
@@erics.4113 car audio has huge cabin gain and near-field is more like truck audio. I’m sure u know it’s really hard to get great bass from a truck. Try putting the sub in a different corner, even behind you or even next to you. Bass is weird and sometimes odd placement works very well.
I got 4 15' rel predators for HT. I know it all depends on room, but i dont want to drag the subwoofers everywhere. If you had one choice and one choice only, where would you start with: 2 vertical stacks of two in the front corners, 2 side by side horizontally stacked 1/3 along front walls, or 1 in each corner?
I would do it like this but on the inside of the speakers, but that depends on your room: ruclips.net/video/uxEbehGzUMQ/видео.html You could also just experiment with 2 first before you stack them. That might be best, dial in dual subs first. Move them around inch by inch to find that perfect response. After that then you can stack them :).
@@NemoPropaganda heck yeah, finally a straight answer. Thanks bro.
@@SS-cs6wt anytime my man, enjoy and congrats, that’s a hell of a stack!!
Tack!
Great advice. Is a chrysalis photon 1000 watt sub a good sound? I have a pair of b&w 705 bookshelves
Hi Jim, I've never heard of that subwoofer so I couldn't really say.
I have a B&W ASw700 (complicated back panel) and a denon AVR x3000 AV Receiver (limited out connections?) - Which connections to I put where please, really simple answer if possible please?
I can't really provide tech support in the youtube comments section. This channel has a free discord, try asking there. Links to the free discord are in all my newer videos.
Hey bud, I was wondering do you have a preference on slope I'm getting mixed answer on 24db slope or 12?
Oh and would you recommend a 10 Hz overlap between main speakers and subs?
sooo you're supposed to do 12db slope on sealed speakers and 24db with vented speakers to match each speakers natural slope but I say fuck all that I just do what sounds good to me, it can vary from one unit to another but generally speaking I prefer 24db slope. As far as overlap that's really going to depend how good the midbass is of the subwoofer in question. REL and Rythmik I'll have as much as a 10-30hz overlap no problem (phase is critical here however) but with most other subs I'll try to have no overlap at all as the mains midbass is tighter and adding more can just slop things up a bit or ending up sounding too heavy for my taste. For the record though, most users enjoy that heavier sound and may prefer to blend up with some overlap.
@@NemoPropaganda Thank you for sharing your knowledge! I appreciate that great information very much!
I purchased a used Bowers and Wilkins ASW608 subwoofer.
The bass drivers in my floorstanding speakers are rated (conservatively) down to 40Hz at 8 ohms. Approximately where should I set the low pass on my subwoofer?
Hard to say, every room is different, I say start at 50hz.
@@NemoPropaganda
Ok, Thanks 😊🙏
Hi as always good review best song to test bass try this track hot shit feat Kayne west by Cardy B you will not be disappointed promise you
Hi. Please give us the setup for REL T7x with the Bouchards. Thanks
I cannot assist with subwoofer setup beyond what is in this video, every room is different so your settings may be very different than mine.
@NemoPropaganda Ssso! ... here is my setup then. Phase : definitely to 180! Or is ... out of phase. Hilow level 10 clicks. Crossover 7 clicks. I did just to complete the sound and not to stand out in a 5x7m room. It has plenty of power. I hear no noticeable difference in changing the position. It does improve the sound, but i find that listening without is easier on the ears. People... you decide. I a small room it might not be justified...
Could you write out that list of songs you use for calibration? That was a good tip. Especially the idea with the Proclaimers.
Thanks again for your reviews and tips. Very instrumental in helping me make the decision to get a Ryhtmik F12G.
I used "Money" by Pink Floyd as my main testing song.
Also, "Cantaloupe Island" and "Take Five" since I was running my line through the PEQ amp on my Rythmik and wanted to be sure the built-in filter wasn't doing anything weird to the signal. "The Weight" to be sure the bass wasn't too weird or boomy.
Got it placed between the mains, primarily just because of room space and cord length. Ended up turning it 90*. Having it pointed forward felt weird - feeling it pushing air right at me every time a bass drum hit. That also broke up the sound some so I wasn't perceiving it as localized since I'm crossing over at 80hz.
Yes of course see below.
Songs Used:
Cherish by Madonna (to test gain/volume)
Put On by Young Jeezy (to test infrasonic bass & phase)
I'm gonna Be by The Proclaimers (to test frequency settings)
Outside The Box by Obsidia (to test integration)
i want by a subwoofer for my kanto yu4 speakers. which subwoofer would you recommend to me up to $ 500. thks for your nices videos.
Emotiva SE8 should be a nice fit :)
@@NemoPropaganda thks nemo but in europe dont exist this sub..:s
@@ristarify It is brother, you might have to email them directly though customerservice@emotiva.com
@@NemoPropaganda ok thks for your help !:)
Gain = volume
Famous last words before a car subwoofer gives out
that's a rather large exaggeration and you know it, plenty of people use remote gain control as a bass volume knob, is it "correct"? absolutely not but plenty of people do it without any issue. Personally I'm more of a set it and forget it kind of guy so I don't use one but no hate on those that do.
1st thought.. "National Public Radio" sets up subs?
shhhhh, lawsuit!
I tried the corners, wasn't a fan. I preferred my subs right beside my mains. I use to dial in my subs by ear but phase does some weird shit in a room, especially at my listening position. I used a Umik-1 and REW last week and it was a huge difference. But here's how I use REW and the Umik-1.
1. Setup the Umik-1 in your listening position.
2. Take measurements of all your speakers and subs individually, to see what they're doing in your room.
3. Guess by the measurements, what frequency would be good to cross the subs over at to blend in with your mains.
4. Reverse the polarity of speaker you are trying to dial a sub into.
5. Run a tone generator at the crossover frequency of the sub you'd like to cross them over at.
6. Pull up the SPL meter in REW.
7. Adjust the volume, variable phase and crossover, all individually until the meter shows the speaker and sub are at their nullest point.
8. Put the polarity back to normal for your speaker.
9. Measure the sub and speaker together.
10. If you need to make minor adjustments because you don't like something in the measurement then repeat steps 4-9 after you've changed your crossover frequency.
11. Do steps 4-9 for the other sub and speaker now.
12. Play the tone generator through just the subs now, and reverse the polarity of one of the subs by switching the 0-180° switch so they are out of phase.
13. Remember where phase dial is on one of the subs, and adjust it to make sure you're at the null point between the 2 subs. Making sure they're not out of phase with each other.
13. Revert back the polarity of the sub.
14. Play some music and enjoy.
I did this last week, and what a huge difference. I first tried my crossover point at 38hz or at least it said at the back of the sub but I was getting a room mode and a steep roll off after 30hz. I then ran a 35hz tone and redid my steps but adjusted the crossover also until it was at the null point and my dial is now basically down to the 25hz mark of the sub. But after retuning and then measuring, my subs are now -3db @20hz and have a flat response. The lows are bliss now The phase is so messed up for me at my listening position, one sub is at 145° and the other is at 0°.
If you have the time, and a calibrated mic, I definitely recommend doing this.
I have the UMIK 1 and rew on my laptop, I had to measure the room a few times as a reviewer to know what it does otherwise I would be out here giving yall bad advice lol. But I try to setup the gear the way I think most consumers will and If i used a UMIK 1 & REW and reviewed a sub based on that I'm worried most users will not be able to replicate my results. Also all my sub reviews so far have been a single subwoofer and that makes things a lot easier.
Although I am not that familiar with your integration songs, I could quickly pick up on what you listen for. Strangely I have my crossover frequency nearly at 100hz with my metas and t5x. At least I think so, REL is not much for labeling it. But when at 80hz I noticed a gap.
Ps: seven nation army is a great song to test integration as well.
I'm not surprised you're at about 100hz, the 5x like being crossed over fairly high and the Metas need a lot of help in the bass department so I'd say you've done a good job!
How about two subwoofers?
thats a litte more complicated but if the room is relatively even then the same settings on each is generally a good setting. Duals may benifit more from using REW to take some measurements if the room is odd shaped.
Wassap Nemo
Asah dude!
Corner loading subs is so wrong.
Works great in my setup, 2 subs in each corner sounds the best
depends on the room my bro, for some rooms its perfect.
Eren made him do this video.
Nobody makes me do anything.
@Nemo Propaganda haha either you didn't get it or your not up to date with attack on titan
@@dfalekulo9138 i’m a full season behind for sure. Need to catch up.
Lol@"just fuck everything in the middle for now". You know, as much of a dick as that Tekton guy is, he makes one hell of a good subwoofer. I wouldnt want to use it for an HT only rig, but this 2-10 sub is surprisingly musical, clean and tight. Anyway, great info here brother...Happy New Year in advance!
You guys need to give up using music to calibrate. Real Audiophiles sit down and turn on Pink Noise. Once you finally appreciate Pink Noise, you wont need to listen to anything else. All hail the Pink Noise.
Real Audiophile? Hmmmm, not sure I want to be in such an exclusive & uptight club….
miniDSP, [mic drop]
personally i don't want to add another DA conversion in my stereo but if it was an HT setup I totally would.
@@NemoPropaganda What's the difference between HT and stereo, you always want the best sound, right? I've never been able to perfectly integrate a sub w/ speakers for stereo without phase/delay control. There's usually some phase misalignment that I attribute to the amp in the sub because, I usually delay the speakers or their Class A amp. Which other DACs offer ch delays? Nothing like hearing a sub disappear.
@@raydioz the difference is this: so with any kind of room correction/DSP there is usually a downside but they fix so many issues most people don't notice at all. In a multichannel HT setup where you could have something like 11 speakers in a 9.2 setup then room correction of any kind is a huge upgrade. But with the much more simple 2.1 channel stereo if you can set it up with less in the chain, generally you will have a better overall sound.
@@NemoPropaganda Once you introduce a sub with some dsp + class D (w/o high pass out), and your main amp is analog, then you will have phase issues. If you want great sound you need to either move the sub closer and the speakers back or introduce active xover w/ delay in your fronts. Check my old bedroom setup tinyurl.com/yvxfdwtd Klipsch sounded empty w/o the sub, and good w/ the sub, but there was a REW measured 38ms delay, and the right speaker which faces the bottom of bed, while closer also had a weird bed introduced phase issue. I played ocean sounds while falling asleep, before the minidsp I would sometimes wake to turn the noise off, after it was like actually being at the beach. Try it.
Even Audessey will sometimes place a sub distance @ +4~6m to fix a phase issue.
With a minidsp you can even run small (60-120hz) and big (18-60hz) subs together in phase... I digress and you've probably already stopped reading.
@@raydioz it's funny you say that, personally I don't use subwoofers with DSP, when it comes to personal use I'm using REL or Rythmik, both of which are full analog. The only DA conversion that happens in my system is from the DAC that's after my network streamer. I might play with that stuff some day but for now it just seems like added complexity that I don't need.
A better way is to use a measuring device, accurate and no messing around. Too much talking here and the result imprecise. Maybe another video using a measuring device.
many videos like that already, this is my way, as stated in the video... Not everyone has measuring equipment and a laptop.