One thing about Green Day is they were offered deals from multiple major labels and turned them down. They only accepted the deal that still guaranteed them complete creative control.
@KeepTheGates not at all what was said, so don't even. The person you're replying to said "money matters in life" & fun fact, it does. Is it the most important thing in life? Well actually there is an argument to be made as you need money to be able to support yourself/your family, soooo...
1986. A coworker DRAGGED me about Van Halen's 1984. All the time. "That's real Rock!" When 5150 came out, I told him I bought it and I loved it! He called them SELLOUTS just because I loved it. Message: If people I don't like love something, it must be trash. The 'sellout' concept is garbage.
5150 was such a natural evolution of 1984. Only thing different was a new singer and the keyboard ballad being what was pushed as the big single. I like both albums btw.
A close friend of mine grew up in Vegas and played in one of Brendon Urie’s early bands. He said everyone at the school knew he had star power, everyone in the scene was impressed by him. He worked tirelessly learning any instrument he could and was the only reason a lot of them wanted to play. People just wanted to play with him. That man was always going to turn into a frontman. Ambitious from the very start.
I once knew this guy that was in an extremely successful local band that I got to know really well. He was the rhythm player, and he didn't really stand out in any way. One night, their lead player was sick and couldn't make the show, and this guy played lead. He was amazing. He was one of the best guitar players I have ever seen in person. He blew their lead player out of the water. I went up to him after that show and asked him why he wasn't playing lead full time, since he was a lot better than the lead player. His answer surprised me. He said that he had no desire to be the center of attention. He said that he just like to stand in the background, play and do his thing. He said he was perfectly fine if no one noticed him. It shocked me at the time, but it made sense. Not all people need to be the center of attention. I guess that's why session players exist.
I'd argue It makes sense to have the stronger guitar player playing rhythm. How well a band performs is hugely affected by how locked-in the musicians are rhythmically.
I'm super hesitant to call a band "sellouts" now. I saw it as that when I was 14... but now at 33, I know that bands evolve. Same ways that my music taste has evolved over the years. I wouldn't want to be doing the same exact shit, 10, 15, 20 years later
@@alteredbeast304 hell yeah. I hope PR MBA knows I don’t actually think this lol. I just thought it’d be appropriate for the topic of the video. That’s why I wrote “sold out” in quotations.
I’m sort of the opposite. I see underground bands get big and I’m happy for them. All those years living in a dirty van eating 7-11 wanting more for their hard work.
@@nonyobussiness3440The thing is plenty do but iam sure they don't care and actually like it themselves. So many musicians that break through, even on a small scale (and it's usually them) say to not only enjoy what you do but play what you wanna hear.
The Independent Labels in the 90's simply didn't have the DISTRIBUTION, which was the most important thing a band needed. Some of those labels would "top out" at 50 to 100k units. I think when Slayer's "Reign In Blood" came out in 86, people started to realize how much extreme music could sell if it got proper distribution.
All of those labels would simply contract with major labels and distributors and basically take a large percentage doing absolutely nothing, basically an unnecessary middleman. It’s why nirvana went major. They had to pay for recording, your, create a buzz and subpop couldn’t give them the a large enough advance and am good enough studios to make their second album, then they were going to play middle man with a major.
Artists grow and their art changes over time. I started out just wanting to make as much noise with as much distortion as I could use, and play fast. Over time, I gained an appreciation for all different kinds of music. Most of what I've released so far has been country-ish stuff. When I actually release a full album, it's gonna be a bit like putting a rock collection from the last 60 years or so on shuffle. There's rockabilly, punk, southern rock, quiet acoustic stuff, classic heavy metal, and a few that don't fit neatly into any one category. If an artist's earlier work is more inspiring to you, use that inspiration and write something yourself. That's more productive than criticizing someone you've never met over choices they've made for reasons you don't know.
Joey Cape nailed it with Know It All. "Because talents exclusive to bands without pay." That song changed my way of thinking about selling out. Great video Finn.
I’ve always been puzzled by how Nirvana managed to avoid being labeled “sellouts”. Even though they signed to a major label, made a video for Smells Like Teen Spirit and approved of MTV airing it, used the money they made from Nevermind to buy fancy homes, etc. Even the more abrasive In Utero had several radio-ready songs that were clearly made for the mainstream. So their reputation for being “anti-mainstream” (which, if you look at Cobain’s influences, is totally false - he even liked Motley Crue!) is a mystery to me.
There isn't a single song on In Utero that is blatantly for radio. The mix was so "unfriendly" (some say bad) that Heart Shaped Box and All Apologies were remixed just to sound good on radio. Kurt HATED the mix for Nevermind saying it was too polished and clean. But time has shown that Butch Vig and Andy Wallace (sound mixer) were right all along. It's also telling that In Utero was remixed to sound better.
@@dvs620yes, Kurt was good at playing the role of the defiant artist refusing to sell out while he sold out. I would be surprised if in utero wasn't put out the way it was deliberately to make it look like Kurt and Nirvana were defying the record label.
@@matthewatwood8641 The first line on In Utero is "Teenage angst has paid off well, but now I'm bored and old." He knew this was coming. The second line is "Self appointed judges judge, more than they have sold." Seems.he called out guys like you as well. 😁
@@matthewatwood8641 Yeah. Record labels love records that don't sound good on the radio, then speaking extra money to have people go back into the studio and remix 2 songs so they sound good on the radio. Record labels don't care about artist integrity. They care about spending the least amount of money to make the most amount of money. No label would deliberately sabotage an album to "protect" the artist's image.
As a small time solo acoustic guy, I’d be happy to accept a multi million dollar deal and wear what they want and sing what they want. All it’ll do is set me up for later so I can have the freedom to do the things I want. I also have a lot of respect for the way Taylor Swift told the music industry to basically suck it and took her own music back
Most artists and performers are smoke and mirrors. They don’t all write their own songs, play every part in the studio, use backing tracks at shows, and have managers running their social media. It just is what it is and I’ve learned just to either enjoy the music or move on to something else.
The major deciding factor in if an artist really sells out is the effort they are putting into their art. So many of those artists you mention may have changed their sound/done something different or popular but what they put out still has that depth, attention to detail, etc.
You can't make everyone happy, but you can make yourself happy. I think there is something especially sad when an artist sacrifices their authenticity to make something THEY aren't happy with just to earn a paycheck. A lot of bands like motley crue and slayer look back on those "sell out" albums woth a lot of disdain and regret whereas metallica and green day not so much, and I think that is the main distinction for me
To me, it all depends on whether the bands genuinely wanna experiment with a new direction or are just chasing trends. In the case of Slayer, they tried to make music in genre (Nu Metal) that they were not exactly that thrilled to begin with and it shows in Diabolus In Musica, not just in the final product but their hesitancy to touch again afterwards. With Metallica on Load and Reload, regardless of how mixed received those albums were, you can at least tell they made a genuine attempt and that they enjoyed writing and recording those songs from their jam sessions. Now, whether those albums should've been released under the "Metallica" name instead of a separate side project (Suicidal Tendencies and Infectious Grooves for example), that's certainly a discussion.
For me, the problem is when the artist isn't even writing their own music anymore. Most pop stars especially have a dozen people writing one of their hits, and their name is not one of them- they're just the voice and face to it onstage after it's already been ghostwritten. THAT is selling out, IMO.
A video about artists that changed genres throughout their career would be an interesting dive. This video touches on it in the whole idea of "selling out" and making music that is more accessible, but I mean completely changing genres, with barely a sign of their original sound and still maintained relevance and success through the process.
@@robyee3325 I kinda feel like Finn avoids Incubus like the plague. Just something I've noticed the whole time I've been watching. He rarely mentions them in videos, if ever. Didn't even get a mention when he touches on Nü Metal. I'm fine with his seeming avoidance, personally, as I'm a big fan and know far too much, but I think their origins, their lyrical messages and their ability to have full creative freedom from very early on are worth diving into. Getting new generational interest in their music, which has an overall positive message, is kinda worth a video at some point. Their message helped shape me into a better person than I was in my youth. Was super into their side projects too. Clearly interested to see one about them pop up, but I get it if it doesn't happen.
A big part of music is just pure marketing. So it makes sense when bands change their sound to something more trendy I get why some fans would hate that, but I honestly feel happy when more people know about my favorite bands so I can finally have people to talk about music I love lol
@@robyee3325 i wouldn't mind if it's just an experimental phase OR if they still make their older style of music from time to time Bring Me The Horizon recently went pop with their Ed Sheeran collab, and their "Strangers" song. BUT they also made something very recently that caters to their old fans with the song "Amen" On the other hand, Paramore went full indie/pop with their 2 latest albums. No more alt-rock from them, and that's why I'm not a fan of their newer stuff
Dude, Green Day was the coolest band in California from 1994-1996. Stickers everywhere! I feel like they ushered in pop-punk to the mainstream then we got No Doubt………….
@@Job.Well.Done_01 They were from the Bay area, but I was in Long Beach at the time, a lot of people thought Green Day was local, because they were CONSTSNTLY playing that area, like literally every month or two they were on a bill in the local zine ads. I thought they were local too until years later.
We talk about gateway bands all the time, but Green Day was literally a gateway band for me to get into punk (which eventually led me to get into metal). I was a fucking middle class white kid from nowhere suburbia in the 90's before the internet - Green Day was my introduction to punk music. Insomniac (still their best album imo, and also by far their heaviest) was the first album I ever bought with my own money. From Green Day I eventually started listening to Rancid, then Nofx, then Lagwagon, No Use for a Name, Bouncing Souls, AFI, and on it goes until at some point I found myself listening to Agnostic Front. And then that led me to Avenged Sevenfold (their first album has a LOT of punk influence), which led me to metal in general. Without that initial spark of hearing Longview or Basket Case on MTV (or on the radio or however I heard it first), I never would have got into punk. None of my friends listened to rock music at all. I was the only one.
@@IceBreakBottle for sure. The first songs I heard from them were from Dookie. Enough that I wanted whatever they came out with next, which was insomniac. I ran that fucking tape dry. It's what got me into punk, then what got me into playing guitar, then what led me to find out I don't have the patience to learn music theory (I did later, but that's another story), which led to me learning how to play drums because I didn't have the patience for guitar.
Accusing a band you like of selling out is nothing more than gatekeeping - and gatekeeping is one of the most toxic human traits there is. Wanting something all for yourself and no one else is so elitist and selfish.
It's hilarious how so many people say the Black Album was a sellout album, then there's that Revolver video where most of the people interviewed chose Sad but True as the heaviest riff ever lol. Just because they slowed down doesn't mean it wasn't heavy. Also, it's insulting to demand an artist keep repeating the same thing over and over.
I recall an interview where One hit somewhat big, they decided they liked that, so they decided at that time they were going to be more radio friendly because they wanted that number one spot as a challenge. Nothing wrong with that.
Is not about heavyness. Is just a different style, so It makes sense some older fans wont like It. It was heavy metal, while the first albums were speed/thrash metal.
Enter sandman is the embodiment of a sell out song it has no message and sounds like a terrible pop song. Master of puppets was the final good album by Metallica, after they ran out of riffs to steal from Dave mustaine and cliff burton died, so too did their ability to make good music
@@ghost_mall yeah, But It wasnt the norm, It was like one or two slow Track per album (fade to black, for whom the bell tolls, the thing that should not be. In the black album the only Fast song I remember Is through the never. Anyway, I just found the Black Album really boring
Sometimes you become more popular because you write better songs as your craft matures. Also, it doesn't make sense for a 30 or 40 year old to play the same angry music they played when they were 20, because people grow up and learn more nuanced ways to make their point.
This. I guess a lot of the alleged acts of selling out may have much to do with artistic development. As you learn to play your instrument and/or sing, you realize there's more to music than just smashing open strings and yelling at the microphone. Plus, a couple of months ago, I accidentally found a demo tape of my late '90s garage band. Were I any kind of ashamed with the lyrics I wrote back then? Not a jot, they represented me as a teen. Would I write the same lyrics now, i.e. a quarter of a century later? No effin' way. Today, in my early forties, I'm a vastly different person. Quite natural, isn't it?
For me, selling out is when an artist makes music they don't like or aren't passionate about, just so they can get more fans. A lot of hair metal bands of the 80s are guilty of this: many of them didn't even like hair metal, they just made it to become famous and make money.
My only gripe is today's state of music, where Singles seem to be the way to go. As full albums just don't have heart anymore imo.... I miss buying an album and being taken on a euphoric journey, by the last song my mind is blown without drugs. Very few bands still do that for me.
Just out of highschool I was reallly confused by A7X, TDWP, and BMTH to name a few. Now that I'm "old" I really enjoy the newer material. I still love the old stuff, but the "sellout" stuff is honestly more relatable because I feel them aging too
"Everybody wants to sell as many albums as possible and sell the biggest showed they can, right?" - 1.12 Literally, No. Not everyone. Some people have just got an urge to make music and will be happy as long as they can do so, regardless of how commercially successful they are. I'm sure they'd probably prefer to be as successful as possible but there's plenty who are happy to settle for enough to get by on and the respect of their peers. I think Chumbawumba are the best example. They sold out, deliberately and on their own terms, for a hot minute then went back to being underground legends.
@@d0k0night yeah, they did aye. They did a ridiculously hooky, anthemic, earworm that sold bucket loads well past their usual crusty audience, reveled in their success for a minute, then without missing a beat went back to slagging off the government and generally being the pinnacle of underground credability. If this is news to you I can only guess you're too young to remember the 90s, but I would bet hard currency you already know the song anyway. Todd in the Shadows did a good "One Hit Wonderland" on them if you want to brush up on that chapter in cultural history.
selling out is associated with attempts to tailor material to a mainstream or commercial audience. For example, a musician who alters their material to encompass a wider audience, and in turn generates greater revenue, may be labeled by fans who pre-date the change as a "sellout".
I feel like Metallica "sellout" effect worked from them. They've become more well-known than all of 80's thrash bands (even outlast them) and their biggest hits are from the black album & ironically Fade to Black lol Their "sellout" effect is also a gateway for people to discover them & metal music. I started listening to them & metal all because of the black album.
I remember their ‘sellout’ era around 1995. I didn’t grow up with their 80’s influence so I didn’t understand what selling out meant . This was Southern California in the mid-90’s when we had Stone Temple Pilots, Bush, and The Offspring making waves.
I really hope you see this Finn - as a long time fan (and soon a Patreon as my financial situation gets better) these in-depth videos challenging an existing belief or concept are masterpieces. Even though these might not be your most watched videos I feel like these are the ones your true fans (such as myself) will watch/listen to multiple times and appreciate greatly. I would think these are kind of videos that don’t get old and will deepen your relationship with the already existing audience. Like when you talk about bands like Black Dahlia Murder or Every Time I Die which are probably not the best selling bands ever but do have that die-hard fanbase granting their careers as much longevity as they want. I just wanted to take a second to first off, thank you, and also wish PRMBA doesn’t become ”only” sort of a wikipedia channel but these beautiful, maybe lesser viewed but hugely appreciated, videos will also remain! You have also mentioned, those ”wikipedia style” ones are not the videos you like making the most. Thanks for everything, take care and I hope this didn’t come across as entitled. Much love from a tacky European! ❤️
The only thing I have against bands I love getting bigger and bigger is not being able to see them in smaller venues... and having to pay way more for a shittier experience. No amount of lasers and video walls compensates for the lack of seedy dive-bar-ness, and the ability to mosey to and from the bar and keep an awesome spot mere feet from the stage. This is why I'm guiltily thankful that Metal has fallen out of favor, and toxic gatekeepers discourage new fans, so I can keep going to killer metal shows that still have these things... though, Metallica/Pantera at SoFi won't be like that...
Been a fan of afi since around 2001 my favorite album will always be the art of drowning. But the first song i ever heard was i wanna mohawk from their first album and though their sound has drastically changed since then i dont believe they have ever sold out every album has been different but really good. I might not listen to them as much as i used to because I've discovered so much music since first listening to them but i still absolutely love everything they do.
As someone who does art I agree with what is being said. I have a favorite medium but, sometimes I want to jump off and do something other then colored pencils. I want to paint. Sometimes I am bored with the subject I tend to do alot and want to do something different. It excites your creativity. revs you up. Keeps you from a rut. So if a metal group wants to do something different to stretch themselves or get out of a rut that is not selling out. Suffering for your art is not cool either. You need money to survive, pay to go to different venues, ect. Besides dumpster diving for your supper sucks. And if you want to marry or have some kids before you hit 50 you have to have money. Life happens. Creative people need to stretch and experiment and do different things other then the same old thing over and over because they are labeled a certain genre, Being poor or stuck in a rut does not make you legit.
There is definitely a spectrum on what selling out is. Being in GAP ad's for a pay day is VERY different than completely changing your sound to fit an algorithm. It's not limiting your audience, it's changing your sound and choosing a new audience. Is it wrong? Maybe, maybe not, but if you completely change your sound you can't expect people to change what they like listening to and follow you on your journey. I think in a lot of cases, calling a band a sell out is similar to saying "this band is not making the music I liked to begin with, so I am moving on from them."
Thing is ....i sort of understand its often a case of if they want to continue to play and make money they need a certain level of success otherwise they would be dropped, I think it was the Glam metal band Dokken said the ballad was a necessary evil, but when i look back at a lot of glam metal bands there was a lot of stuff that was heavy non commercial. Also I do not know if this is the same for everyone.....but i like a lot of styles of music, metal,punk,indie,dance,electro,country and many more and if i was in a band i would probably get sick of sticking to a style. I do think a full on sellout is a band or artist that really goes against what they actually like to do
Great video! David Bowie was called a sell out for "Let's Dance." I never understood that. He was always changing his sound and look. Yes, it was the most mainstream he had been at that point but he was fascinated with music and wanting to do different things. Nile Rogers was producing everyone at that time and most importantly, the music was good!
He had those poppy catching tunes way before that album, but he decided to do some experimental stuff because he was being screwed in His contract. After fullfilling contractual obligations and getting a better deal he decided to put out His catchy tunes.
David Bowie, like Metallica, was called a sell out for every album, starting with betraying twee mainstream britpop for hippy crap, then betraying hippy crap for rock, then betraying rock for glam rock... well, yeah, Outside, no one accused him of being a sell out with that one.
@@nonyobussiness3440 I've noticed that fans don't want their favorite musician to change a lot of the time but at the same time, criticize them for always sounding the same.
I don't think "selling-out" has anything to do with garnering success or popularity - but rather, control. When a band/artist relinquishes creative control of their own music in order to achieve success they are no longer making their art - merely executing someone else's. Ed Sheeran is an excellent example of this. There's nothing inherently wrong with this (most of us do work we aren't passionate about to pay bills), but it becomes a problem when the artist/band in question is either ignorant of, or refuses to admit to this fact (Ed Sheeran still a great example here too).
Green Day never sold out. They've always proudly worn their punk heritage on their sleeves. American Idiot may have been mixed with more pop, straight-up rock, and alternative influences, but the punk ethos was always there. They've always been doing essentially what bands like The Ramones, The Clash, and The Buzzcocks did years before them, it's just that Green Day figured out a way to make more money out of it than they did.
I think my personal problem with "selling out" is not that bands i like attempt to get bigger and provide some changes in their sound, but that they exchange their uniqueness for a more massive appeal. Think of bands like Slayer, Meshuggah, Cannibal Corpse, Opeth. They've existed for a long time and they've gained a very reliable and loyal fanbase because they stayed true to themselves and to their audience. They did not attempt "pumping" their audience by softening their sound or singing mellow tunes instead. They were grinding and this grind has payed of. They've walked a very tough path and eventually they were given what they deserve - money, recognition and respect. In cases like BMTH and Taylor Swift I have a slight feeling that they're more driven to make any music that will bring them dividends instead of mastering a certain genre. Which, imo, takes a lot more diligence. Feel free to argue. I will value any reasonable counter-argument.
Does anybody remember the Green Day’s Behind The Music where it was basically a “We never sold out” press release? Metallica’s was similar. Or the time and effort Zac Brown spent telling people he wasn’t bro country and that he was friends with Dave Grohl. At the end of the day, none of it mattered. I think the artists were more worried about it than the people who listened to their music.
I could be remembering wrong, but I think both basically saying yeah they sold out, but that’s what they wanted to do. As long as they are doing what they want, who cares?
@@Pasadena_Musicyes. My recollection was about like this: Billy Joe: should we take the money and keep doing what we are doing? Eff yeah. Metallica: we had a minor hit with One, that felt nice. Now we want to be number one and will do what we have to to get it.
@@Pasadena_Musicwas Metallica every anti corporate making money. They were huge pretty much early in the career. I don’t recall metal being anti mainstream
Another thought about Green Day is when they decided to sign with Warner, it wasn't that they wanted to, but they had already become so popular that they were selling out small venues, with extras showing up and completely flooding the places. Billie said it was basically becoming a safety hazard and there was a risk that venues would no longer give them gigs. So it was either sign with a major label and get the support you need for your growing fanbase, or don't and get blacklisted from the local venues. They basically had no choice.
Implicit in any argument that an artist has sold out is an underlying assumption that musicians aren’t actually doing this as their job. If one is a professional musician, paying attention to trends and making music people will want to listen to can reasonably be part of their job. If you run a sandwich shop, and making sandwiches is how you make your money, it would be goofy and dumb to ignore what sandwiches people want to eat.
Good points Finn. Very hard either way you look at it. The aloof metal community especially prefer their bands to stay away from the mainstream - even if it means their heroes are having a better life as a result. I guess if those artists are doing better in their careers they become totally unrelatable and so the older fans turn on them. Great vid Finn !
to me, a "Sellout" is someone who alters his sound to be closer to what is mainstream or anyone how hires external songwriters. There is a big difference between " I want people to hear MY music" and " let's change so that people will listen to my product" "Nevermind" by Nirvana is a band that got popular despite being very different from the mainstream at the time basically all of 2000's Emo/Pop Punk bands ( to me at least) seem to be artists that deliberatly write music with mainstream appeal one feels sincere artist, the other like buisiness men
I don't have an issue with selling out per se. I think the whole thing about RATM selling out hit a little different because it was their thing that they were going against what was mainstream and being anti-establishment. That was a big part of their identity. For them to sell out is different than the other artists who have sold out, I guess.
Do you not getting it which is that the problem and I think people have of people saying sell it is that well it’s fans saying I want what I want and if I don’t get what I want I’ll throw a fit
When Celtic Frost did Cold Lake, they tried to adapt hair metal to the CF aesthetic, and that didn't work for anyone--even the band. They tried to become more accessible without totally compromising what they were, but there was no landing spot for that monster. Total failure, but at least Tom Warrior didn't try a power ballad.
Also don't forget that Green Day were PRODUCERS of an East Bay Punk documentary and showed so much love in it to Gilman st. and what that venue did for the scene. I don't blame Green Day either, to live worry free of how to pay your bills? I'd do the same day thing.
Preach, man. Preach. Fans who complain about selling out are insecure and want to feel better about themselves. Keeping themselves safe in their circle is more important than anything else.
Classic band changes their sound: they sold out Classic band doesn't change their sound: they're getting stale/have no fresh ideas anymore You can't win when the fanbase is toxic
The sad part is that the modern music industry forces artists to "sell out" since they are forced to compromise on their artistic integrity in majority of cases to appeal to as broad an audience as possible. That's why so much of the stuff being churned out today sounds so much the same.
When I was young I thought selling out was the worst thing a band could do.. then I went into the real world and realized what having a job meant and barely scraping by for years.. then I realized if I was in a band and had the chance to (in theory) make a good living playing music my whole life by signing to a major label I’d have jumped at the opportunity. “I didn’t sell out, son.. I bought in.”
Coldplay have also been accused of selling out after their solid first three albums, but they're excused since they died and were replaced by actors around 2006.
I agree with the idea that Rage Against the machine has sold out. I also agree with John Cooper in the beginning. I say that and Skillet nowadays makes some of the most middle-schooler targeted WWE-commercial/Christian-Youth-Festival music! Meanwhile Rage's classics are all anti-establishment bangers! The problem is that Rage Against the Machine has somehow became very pro-establishment in the last couple of years. From their support of corporate industries like Ticketmaster and Fizer to support of overreaching government lockdowns and mandates over what you can and cannot do with your own body. I've never necessary been on the same page and Rage politically (I've always been more a Metallica-Libertarian as apposed to an Rage-Anarchist), but nowadays I don't even see how their message fits their name or their old music. Nowadays Rage Against the Machine is all for cops locking you in a cage and stabbing you with the products of big pharma! John Cooper might make cringy middle-schooler music to pay the bills, but I do respect that he speaks out against big pharma, big government, and the woke university-establishment. There are others like Tommy Vext and Brent Smith who speak out as well (in an intelligent way, people like Kid Rock and Ivan Moody are of course the opposite extreme, but even though they do more harm than good they are still more "rage against the machine" than modern-day Rage Against the Machine!)
I respect Taylor Swift because she very publicly acknowledged shifting from the country sphere to pure pop due to deference and respect she has for the genre. As long as artists are making music honestly, they should be able to play whatever the hell they want. If people like it, great. If not, that's great too.
Being called a "sellout" isnt exclusive to art or music... Ive seen it happened with just about any one of my friends or family who started a business and experienced even the slightest level of success and started living a better and more comfortable life!
Selling out to me is when an artist or band starts allowing the studio or corporation to write their music. You used Taylor Swift as an example, but look up how many of her major hits were written by the studio.
When we called a band a sell-out it was not because they made money, it was because they watered down their sound for the masses. Make money all you want and can.
Thats why glam metal, nu metal, and butt rock are the best rock genre. Nobody cares if they sellout or not, their music always for mainstream audience…
Maynard said it best… “All you know about me is what I’ve sold you/I sold out long before you ever even heard my name/I sold my soul to make a record/And then you bought one”
Black Eyed Peas would be the purest embodement of the idea of selling out. I thought eventually they were going to get to the punch line but then I realized that when they were supposed to be underground, indy, thoughtful, political that was probably more them selling out. They just became who they really were eventually. Once in awhile I would see or hear a fragment of a glimpse of their contempt for the corporate music machine but I wonder if that was just an accident.
I had a discussion many years ago about bands selling out. He mentioned AC/DC as a sell out because they never changed their sound thinking that's what the fans wanted.
I’d honestly just want to play the same smallish/mid sized shows. I love the size of hardcore shows like the this is hardcore fest, if I could go to those forever I’d be happy. The space is big enough but not too small, and it feels like a more personal experience.
Honestly, $1700 for a signature guitar, especially one with an official Floyd Rose, is reasonable. Honestly, at that price there's no way its USA built.
To me it’s HOW they sell out. Good: I want to make money. I have a family and want to move to a safe neighborhood and have security etc. Bad: what? We didn’t sell out. We have always just done our thing. It is only a coincidence we recorded with Taylor Swift and hired her producer.
And, on a smaller scale, let's not forget about those that proudly proclaim they aren't "selling out" then complain about people not being interested in them and their "true" art when in fact they just refuse to promote themselves. 😂
On the 'only way they can make art is to be poor and depressed' I oddly have a thing with that and Slipknot. I find their first 3 albums just are the most angry and emotional albums of their time and everything after was kinda forced. I beleive the lacking of the 'IT factor' on the later albums is the fact they weren't living dirt poor and the world wasnt crushing them. In no way this is a case study of 'KEEP THEM POOR' just more how surroundings create art and your art creates surroundings.
Henry Rollins was also in "Wrong Turn 2" lol he was good in it EDIT: Kirk Hammett said years ago that many of Metallica's fans got pissy when "their" little band got too big to fit in their back pocket
20 years ago what I told a dude who called my then fav band Cradle of Filth sellouts. I said "Sure, but so are your fav band. Every band that releases a record is technically a sellout band, because they wanna reach as many people as possible with their music. If they say otherwise, they are lying to you and themselves. You think they wanna work a shitty industrial job or make a living from their music?" dude really had no answer. I rejoice at the success of the artists I listen to. It means their work is paying off, and it takes alot of work to make it in the music biz... especially in more niche music genres like metal & punk, the machine does not work as hard for you in those genres. Not that making it is easier in mainstream stuff, but the machine is bigger if you do get noticed. And when an artist changes their sound... I may not like the new stuff, I may even say it's bad (IMO), but I do understand why they change it. People change, artists are also people. Some artists may do it out of greed, but I do not think most of them fit into that category. This also reminds me of many of the "great painters" of old... They were completely broke when they were alive and painted those paintings. And now their work is sold for millions upon millions if it's not sitting in a museum collection. You really think those people would not have loved some of that money when they actually were alive? This of course also applies to many composers and authors as well that are long dead now and very celebrated who did not see much of a dime when they were alive.
It is Impossible for anyone with a recording contract not to sell out. no one is going to pay for your million dollar tours and let you have total control of their money, Just like they will not give 100% control over your album because again they front the marketing bill. If a band changes over time some times that is as simple as growth or just being tired of the same Fucking thing, or like we saw at the end of the 80's a drastic change in music that forced a change in bands or forced their death as a band.
It's like about people saying others are posers, as if there was ONE way to be a fan, ONE ONLY way of being an artist, and as if artists, music and art in general was OUR thing. It's the definition of making a fuss and being a child. Artists are not ours, they do what they want, and albums are not made for the fans. It's made for only one reason: because the band enjoyed those songs and playing them. And even a band making music for money is to be respected, as long as they're clear on their intention. If we're stupid enough to buy their cds, it's our problem. Being offended because the evolution of some artists isn't for our taste is our problem, not the bands'. We are always taking EVERYTHING personnaly, it's exhausting
Finn, you missed the real meaning of selling out - losing your values! Money isn't the problem, the problem is when money changes the punks "fight the man" ethos.
A good example of a band that changed to a softer, more accessible sound, but didn't sell out is Life of Agony. Once they changed from hardcore to alternative, they never looked back. That was clearly the music they really wanted to make. They have 1 hardcore album followed by 5 alternative albums. Even after alternative stopped being the most popular form of rock, they kept playing it.
I get what you're saying about selling out, and I myself haven't used that term in a long time... but lately, it just feels like anything that isn't "accessible" music just isn't welcome in the mainstream anymore. Or at least not for long-term success. People these days are the least adventurous they've ever been when it comes to music listening. So, when I see genuinely unique and interesting musicians changing their sound so drastically in order to appeal to them, I'm like - why would you do this for people who don't genuinely appreciate you and will drop you for the next fad? Keep in mind that this concern of mine is purely in the music sense, and not in the financial sense. I do agree that musicians today need to get the bag however they can, as long as it's not by scummy means.
Go to buyraycon.com/punkrockmba for 15% off your order! Brought to you by Raycon.
Look at this sell out RUclipsr hawking corporate merch 😂
Son, he didn’t sell out, he bought in. Keep that in mind.
I got the studio Raymond last year they do fit like they claim but I favored one and after a month it was noticeably quieter
@@skateroffortuneOne of your ears is deafer.
@@NikoFrederiko. maybe
One thing about Green Day is they were offered deals from multiple major labels and turned them down. They only accepted the deal that still guaranteed them complete creative control.
And they also played the exact same music for 30 years . They’ve stayed pretty consistent for decades.
Ha ha ha ha.
And Green Day is punk rock 3rd generation.
Meaning they had zero integrity to begin with.
And they're gay.
@@freddude1493I’m gonna have to disagree with that. They have evolved a lot through the years.
Jason Newsted said it perfectly. “Sellout? Yes we do sellout. Every night. Every seat. Everywhere we play.”
I thought Lars said that
@@thefinaltitanagreed
@@thefinaltitanYeah but at the end of the day, money matters in life
@@khalis6973t's far from the most important thing in life.
@KeepTheGates not at all what was said, so don't even. The person you're replying to said "money matters in life" & fun fact, it does. Is it the most important thing in life? Well actually there is an argument to be made as you need money to be able to support yourself/your family, soooo...
"I didn't get into music to be poor for my entire life" - Iggy Pop
"The time to sell out is when you have a buyer" - Nigel Tufnel
1986. A coworker DRAGGED me about Van Halen's 1984. All the time. "That's real Rock!" When 5150 came out, I told him I bought it and I loved it! He called them SELLOUTS just because I loved it. Message: If people I don't like love something, it must be trash. The 'sellout' concept is garbage.
Never understood the appeal of either album actually. But to each his own.
Was your co-worker Eddie Trunk?
5150 was such a natural evolution of 1984. Only thing different was a new singer and the keyboard ballad being what was pushed as the big single. I like both albums btw.
A close friend of mine grew up in Vegas and played in one of Brendon Urie’s early bands. He said everyone at the school knew he had star power, everyone in the scene was impressed by him. He worked tirelessly learning any instrument he could and was the only reason a lot of them wanted to play. People just wanted to play with him. That man was always going to turn into a frontman. Ambitious from the very start.
Ronnie Radke went to the same high school
Same with Jack White in Detroit. Dude was in every band here (including a friend of mines)
I once knew this guy that was in an extremely successful local band that I got to know really well. He was the rhythm player, and he didn't really stand out in any way. One night, their lead player was sick and couldn't make the show, and this guy played lead. He was amazing. He was one of the best guitar players I have ever seen in person. He blew their lead player out of the water. I went up to him after that show and asked him why he wasn't playing lead full time, since he was a lot better than the lead player. His answer surprised me. He said that he had no desire to be the center of attention. He said that he just like to stand in the background, play and do his thing. He said he was perfectly fine if no one noticed him. It shocked me at the time, but it made sense. Not all people need to be the center of attention. I guess that's why session players exist.
I'd argue It makes sense to have the stronger guitar player playing rhythm. How well a band performs is hugely affected by how locked-in the musicians are rhythmically.
I'm super hesitant to call a band "sellouts" now. I saw it as that when I was 14... but now at 33, I know that bands evolve. Same ways that my music taste has evolved over the years. I wouldn't want to be doing the same exact shit, 10, 15, 20 years later
Hahaha don't make excuses for Green Gay
Punk Rock MBA “sold out” for being sponsored by RayCons
Get that bag, as I always say
@@alteredbeast304 raycons truly are terrible though
Raycon sold out for being sponsored by SpongeBob
@@alteredbeast304 hell yeah. I hope PR MBA knows I don’t actually think this lol. I just thought it’d be appropriate for the topic of the video. That’s why I wrote “sold out” in quotations.
😂
I’m sort of the opposite. I see underground bands get big and I’m happy for them. All those years living in a dirty van eating 7-11 wanting more for their hard work.
lol exactly the only thing bands truly want is more exposure more people listening to them
You only make music with hops of making it big and being popular. Lol like who would make music that no one likes.
@@nonyobussiness3440The thing is plenty do but iam sure they don't care and actually like it themselves. So many musicians that break through, even on a small scale (and it's usually them) say to not only enjoy what you do but play what you wanna hear.
Boyz II Men should be mentioned, from hardcore underground punk in the late 1980s to … “End of the Road”.
😂😂😂
Their 1987 split 7” with Agnostic Front was a classic
Motown Philly hard-core
Lol. For a second there I thought I woke up in some alternate timeline where BoyzIIMen actually came up in the 80's hardcore scene.
@@maynarddrivesfast804 me too, man. I was like "Did this actually happen???"
Finally SLC Punk makes its long awaited debut. Deserves its own video.
The Independent Labels in the 90's simply didn't have the DISTRIBUTION, which was the most important thing a band needed. Some of those labels would "top out" at 50 to 100k units. I think when Slayer's "Reign In Blood" came out in 86, people started to realize how much extreme music could sell if it got proper distribution.
All of those labels would simply contract with major labels and distributors and basically take a large percentage doing absolutely nothing, basically an unnecessary middleman. It’s why nirvana went major. They had to pay for recording, your, create a buzz and subpop couldn’t give them the a large enough advance and am good enough studios to make their second album, then they were going to play middle man with a major.
@@nonyobussiness3440 Exactly. And indie couldn't even give buy back guarantees to the record stores.
Artists grow and their art changes over time. I started out just wanting to make as much noise with as much distortion as I could use, and play fast. Over time, I gained an appreciation for all different kinds of music. Most of what I've released so far has been country-ish stuff. When I actually release a full album, it's gonna be a bit like putting a rock collection from the last 60 years or so on shuffle. There's rockabilly, punk, southern rock, quiet acoustic stuff, classic heavy metal, and a few that don't fit neatly into any one category. If an artist's earlier work is more inspiring to you, use that inspiration and write something yourself. That's more productive than criticizing someone you've never met over choices they've made for reasons you don't know.
Joey Cape nailed it with Know It All.
"Because talents exclusive to bands without pay."
That song changed my way of thinking about selling out. Great video Finn.
I’ve always been puzzled by how Nirvana managed to avoid being labeled “sellouts”. Even though they signed to a major label, made a video for Smells Like Teen Spirit and approved of MTV airing it, used the money they made from Nevermind to buy fancy homes, etc. Even the more abrasive In Utero had several radio-ready songs that were clearly made for the mainstream. So their reputation for being “anti-mainstream” (which, if you look at Cobain’s influences, is totally false - he even liked Motley Crue!) is a mystery to me.
There isn't a single song on In Utero that is blatantly for radio. The mix was so "unfriendly" (some say bad) that Heart Shaped Box and All Apologies were remixed just to sound good on radio. Kurt HATED the mix for Nevermind saying it was too polished and clean. But time has shown that Butch Vig and Andy Wallace (sound mixer) were right all along. It's also telling that In Utero was remixed to sound better.
Kurt Cobain was one of the biggest sellouts ever. Never intended otherwise.
@@dvs620yes, Kurt was good at playing the role of the defiant artist refusing to sell out while he sold out. I would be surprised if in utero wasn't put out the way it was deliberately to make it look like Kurt and Nirvana were defying the record label.
@@matthewatwood8641 The first line on In Utero is "Teenage angst has paid off well, but now I'm bored and old." He knew this was coming.
The second line is "Self appointed judges judge, more than they have sold." Seems.he called out guys like you as well. 😁
@@matthewatwood8641 Yeah. Record labels love records that don't sound good on the radio, then speaking extra money to have people go back into the studio and remix 2 songs so they sound good on the radio.
Record labels don't care about artist integrity. They care about spending the least amount of money to make the most amount of money. No label would deliberately sabotage an album to "protect" the artist's image.
As a small time solo acoustic guy, I’d be happy to accept a multi million dollar deal and wear what they want and sing what they want. All it’ll do is set me up for later so I can have the freedom to do the things I want. I also have a lot of respect for the way Taylor Swift told the music industry to basically suck it and took her own music back
Sell crack and shop mad demos.
Most artists and performers are smoke and mirrors. They don’t all write their own songs, play every part in the studio, use backing tracks at shows, and have managers running their social media. It just is what it is and I’ve learned just to either enjoy the music or move on to something else.
The major deciding factor in if an artist really sells out is the effort they are putting into their art. So many of those artists you mention may have changed their sound/done something different or popular but what they put out still has that depth, attention to detail, etc.
You can't make everyone happy, but you can make yourself happy.
I think there is something especially sad when an artist sacrifices their authenticity to make something THEY aren't happy with just to earn a paycheck.
A lot of bands like motley crue and slayer look back on those "sell out" albums woth a lot of disdain and regret whereas metallica and green day not so much, and I think that is the main distinction for me
To me, it all depends on whether the bands genuinely wanna experiment with a new direction or are just chasing trends.
In the case of Slayer, they tried to make music in genre (Nu Metal) that they were not exactly that thrilled to begin with and it shows in Diabolus In Musica, not just in the final product but their hesitancy to touch again afterwards.
With Metallica on Load and Reload, regardless of how mixed received those albums were, you can at least tell they made a genuine attempt and that they enjoyed writing and recording those songs from their jam sessions.
Now, whether those albums should've been released under the "Metallica" name instead of a separate side project (Suicidal Tendencies and Infectious Grooves for example), that's certainly a discussion.
For me, the problem is when the artist isn't even writing their own music anymore. Most pop stars especially have a dozen people writing one of their hits, and their name is not one of them- they're just the voice and face to it onstage after it's already been ghostwritten. THAT is selling out, IMO.
A video about artists that changed genres throughout their career would be an interesting dive. This video touches on it in the whole idea of "selling out" and making music that is more accessible, but I mean completely changing genres, with barely a sign of their original sound and still maintained relevance and success through the process.
Yep I did a couple of those a few years back!
@@robyee3325 I kinda feel like Finn avoids Incubus like the plague. Just something I've noticed the whole time I've been watching. He rarely mentions them in videos, if ever. Didn't even get a mention when he touches on Nü Metal. I'm fine with his seeming avoidance, personally, as I'm a big fan and know far too much, but I think their origins, their lyrical messages and their ability to have full creative freedom from very early on are worth diving into. Getting new generational interest in their music, which has an overall positive message, is kinda worth a video at some point. Their message helped shape me into a better person than I was in my youth. Was super into their side projects too. Clearly interested to see one about them pop up, but I get it if it doesn't happen.
Henry said it best: you sell out when you do the album you’re told to do. It’s not about money.
A big part of music is just pure marketing. So it makes sense when bands change their sound to something more trendy
I get why some fans would hate that, but I honestly feel happy when more people know about my favorite bands so I can finally have people to talk about music I love lol
@@robyee3325 i wouldn't mind if it's just an experimental phase OR if they still make their older style of music from time to time
Bring Me The Horizon recently went pop with their Ed Sheeran collab, and their "Strangers" song. BUT they also made something very recently that caters to their old fans with the song "Amen"
On the other hand, Paramore went full indie/pop with their 2 latest albums. No more alt-rock from them, and that's why I'm not a fan of their newer stuff
Dude, Green Day was the coolest band in California from 1994-1996. Stickers everywhere!
I feel like they ushered in pop-punk to the mainstream then we got No Doubt………….
They were both from Orange County though… 👎
@@microchrist6122 thought Green Day is from The Bay Area?
@@Job.Well.Done_01 They were from the Bay area, but I was in Long Beach at the time, a lot of people thought Green Day was local, because they were CONSTSNTLY playing that area, like literally every month or two they were on a bill in the local zine ads. I thought they were local too until years later.
@@HappinessDIY exactly they made their name in Orange County
@@microchrist6122 I think so too. My take is they lived in NorCal, but SoCal made them famous.
We talk about gateway bands all the time, but Green Day was literally a gateway band for me to get into punk (which eventually led me to get into metal). I was a fucking middle class white kid from nowhere suburbia in the 90's before the internet - Green Day was my introduction to punk music. Insomniac (still their best album imo, and also by far their heaviest) was the first album I ever bought with my own money. From Green Day I eventually started listening to Rancid, then Nofx, then Lagwagon, No Use for a Name, Bouncing Souls, AFI, and on it goes until at some point I found myself listening to Agnostic Front. And then that led me to Avenged Sevenfold (their first album has a LOT of punk influence), which led me to metal in general.
Without that initial spark of hearing Longview or Basket Case on MTV (or on the radio or however I heard it first), I never would have got into punk. None of my friends listened to rock music at all. I was the only one.
Dookie for me dude
Nimrod for me when I was 12
It was American idiot for me (just look at my username)
@@IceBreakBottle for sure. The first songs I heard from them were from Dookie. Enough that I wanted whatever they came out with next, which was insomniac. I ran that fucking tape dry. It's what got me into punk, then what got me into playing guitar, then what led me to find out I don't have the patience to learn music theory (I did later, but that's another story), which led to me learning how to play drums because I didn't have the patience for guitar.
@@PalmelaHanderson That's awesome dude :)
Accusing a band you like of selling out is nothing more than gatekeeping - and gatekeeping is one of the most toxic human traits there is. Wanting something all for yourself and no one else is so elitist and selfish.
It's hilarious how so many people say the Black Album was a sellout album, then there's that Revolver video where most of the people interviewed chose Sad but True as the heaviest riff ever lol. Just because they slowed down doesn't mean it wasn't heavy. Also, it's insulting to demand an artist keep repeating the same thing over and over.
I recall an interview where One hit somewhat big, they decided they liked that, so they decided at that time they were going to be more radio friendly because they wanted that number one spot as a challenge. Nothing wrong with that.
Is not about heavyness. Is just a different style, so It makes sense some older fans wont like It. It was heavy metal, while the first albums were speed/thrash metal.
@@rmv9194 yes, but back then they were criticized for being soft and it clearly isn't, they just slowed down a bit.
Enter sandman is the embodiment of a sell out song it has no message and sounds like a terrible pop song. Master of puppets was the final good album by Metallica, after they ran out of riffs to steal from Dave mustaine and cliff burton died, so too did their ability to make good music
@@ghost_mall yeah, But It wasnt the norm, It was like one or two slow Track per album (fade to black, for whom the bell tolls, the thing that should not be. In the black album the only Fast song I remember Is through the never. Anyway, I just found the Black Album really boring
I sold out in the 90's. I turned to Goth, Industrial and College Radio.
Then I got old, lost my house and either the music died or I lost my way.
Sometimes you become more popular because you write better songs as your craft matures. Also, it doesn't make sense for a 30 or 40 year old to play the same angry music they played when they were 20, because people grow up and learn more nuanced ways to make their point.
This. I guess a lot of the alleged acts of selling out may have much to do with artistic development. As you learn to play your instrument and/or sing, you realize there's more to music than just smashing open strings and yelling at the microphone.
Plus, a couple of months ago, I accidentally found a demo tape of my late '90s garage band. Were I any kind of ashamed with the lyrics I wrote back then? Not a jot, they represented me as a teen. Would I write the same lyrics now, i.e. a quarter of a century later? No effin' way. Today, in my early forties, I'm a vastly different person. Quite natural, isn't it?
For me, selling out is when an artist makes music they don't like or aren't passionate about, just so they can get more fans. A lot of hair metal bands of the 80s are guilty of this: many of them didn't even like hair metal, they just made it to become famous and make money.
Starring in Johnny Mnemonic is the best way of "selling out" imaginable.
My only gripe is today's state of music, where Singles seem to be the way to go. As full albums just don't have heart anymore imo.... I miss buying an album and being taken on a euphoric journey, by the last song my mind is blown without drugs. Very few bands still do that for me.
People who think RATM sold out never listened to RATM.
"Sellout" is just a buzzword used by ignorant music elitists. Bands evolve, sounds change. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.
Just out of highschool I was reallly confused by A7X, TDWP, and BMTH to name a few. Now that I'm "old" I really enjoy the newer material. I still love the old stuff, but the "sellout" stuff is honestly more relatable because I feel them aging too
“Selling out” > putting out the same album 20 times.
"Everybody wants to sell as many albums as possible and sell the biggest showed they can, right?" - 1.12
Literally, No. Not everyone. Some people have just got an urge to make music and will be happy as long as they can do so, regardless of how commercially successful they are. I'm sure they'd probably prefer to be as successful as possible but there's plenty who are happy to settle for enough to get by on and the respect of their peers. I think Chumbawumba are the best example. They sold out, deliberately and on their own terms, for a hot minute then went back to being underground legends.
OK so they "sold out" then they wen back down small again. And that's respectable, and everyone forgave them? No - once a sellout, always a sellout.
@@d0k0night yeah, they did aye. They did a ridiculously hooky, anthemic, earworm that sold bucket loads well past their usual crusty audience, reveled in their success for a minute, then without missing a beat went back to slagging off the government and generally being the pinnacle of underground credability. If this is news to you I can only guess you're too young to remember the 90s, but I would bet hard currency you already know the song anyway.
Todd in the Shadows did a good "One Hit Wonderland" on them if you want to brush up on that chapter in cultural history.
@@d0k0nightsee also Chill Goblin, "Who is more punk, Chumbawumba or The Sex Pistols?"
I always hated how KISS looks like Slipknot but sounds like the Beatles
😅😂
selling out is associated with attempts to tailor material to a mainstream or commercial audience. For example, a musician who alters their material to encompass a wider audience, and in turn generates greater revenue, may be labeled by fans who pre-date the change as a "sellout".
It's very simple. A sellout is when the label TELLS you to make music that must be sold. Period.
And guess what? It usually turns out as shitty music.
I feel like Metallica "sellout" effect worked from them. They've become more well-known than all of 80's thrash bands (even outlast them) and their biggest hits are from the black album & ironically Fade to Black lol Their "sellout" effect is also a gateway for people to discover them & metal music. I started listening to them & metal all because of the black album.
The truth is all big 4 thrash sold out after the 80's anyway lol
I remember their ‘sellout’ era around 1995.
I didn’t grow up with their 80’s influence so I didn’t understand what selling out meant . This was Southern California in the mid-90’s when we had Stone Temple Pilots, Bush, and The Offspring making waves.
They have not outlast any of the big four, they are still playing. I think Megadeth have More albums than Metallica.
Clairo !
@@rmv9194That’s not really fair to compare ‘Deth and ‘Tallica as it’s Metallicas very existence that fuels Dave Mustaine.
I really hope you see this Finn - as a long time fan (and soon a Patreon as my financial situation gets better) these in-depth videos challenging an existing belief or concept are masterpieces.
Even though these might not be your most watched videos I feel like these are the ones your true fans (such as myself) will watch/listen to multiple times and appreciate greatly. I would think these are kind of videos that don’t get old and will deepen your relationship with the already existing audience. Like when you talk about bands like Black Dahlia Murder or Every Time I Die which are probably not the best selling bands ever but do have that die-hard fanbase granting their careers as much longevity as they want.
I just wanted to take a second to first off, thank you, and also wish PRMBA doesn’t become ”only” sort of a wikipedia channel but these beautiful, maybe lesser viewed but hugely appreciated, videos will also remain! You have also mentioned, those ”wikipedia style” ones are not the videos you like making the most.
Thanks for everything, take care and I hope this didn’t come across as entitled. Much love from a tacky European! ❤️
Rage alongside the machine*
Every time I hear the term "sell-out" I think of that SLC Punk clip in the open of the video. Thanks for the videos!
The only thing I have against bands I love getting bigger and bigger is not being able to see them in smaller venues... and having to pay way more for a shittier experience. No amount of lasers and video walls compensates for the lack of seedy dive-bar-ness, and the ability to mosey to and from the bar and keep an awesome spot mere feet from the stage.
This is why I'm guiltily thankful that Metal has fallen out of favor, and toxic gatekeepers discourage new fans, so I can keep going to killer metal shows that still have these things... though, Metallica/Pantera at SoFi won't be like that...
Been a fan of afi since around 2001 my favorite album will always be the art of drowning. But the first song i ever heard was i wanna mohawk from their first album and though their sound has drastically changed since then i dont believe they have ever sold out every album has been different but really good. I might not listen to them as much as i used to because I've discovered so much music since first listening to them but i still absolutely love everything they do.
As someone who does art I agree with what is being said.
I have a favorite medium but, sometimes I want to jump off and do something other then colored pencils. I want to paint. Sometimes I am bored with the subject I tend to do alot and want to do something different. It excites your creativity. revs you up. Keeps you from a rut. So if a metal group wants to do something different to stretch themselves or get out of a rut that is not selling out.
Suffering for your art is not cool either. You need money to survive, pay to go to different venues, ect. Besides dumpster diving for your supper sucks.
And if you want to marry or have some kids before you hit 50 you have to have money. Life happens.
Creative people need to stretch and experiment and do different things other then the same old thing over and over because they are labeled a certain genre,
Being poor or stuck in a rut does not make you legit.
There is definitely a spectrum on what selling out is. Being in GAP ad's for a pay day is VERY different than completely changing your sound to fit an algorithm. It's not limiting your audience, it's changing your sound and choosing a new audience. Is it wrong? Maybe, maybe not, but if you completely change your sound you can't expect people to change what they like listening to and follow you on your journey. I think in a lot of cases, calling a band a sell out is similar to saying "this band is not making the music I liked to begin with, so I am moving on from them."
Thing is ....i sort of understand its often a case of if they want to continue to play and make money they need a certain level of success otherwise they would be dropped, I think it was the Glam metal band Dokken said the ballad was a necessary evil, but when i look back at a lot of glam metal bands there was a lot of stuff that was heavy non commercial. Also I do not know if this is the same for everyone.....but i like a lot of styles of music, metal,punk,indie,dance,electro,country and many more and if i was in a band i would probably get sick of sticking to a style. I do think a full on sellout is a band or artist that really goes against what they actually like to do
Great video! David Bowie was called a sell out for "Let's Dance." I never understood that. He was always changing his sound and look. Yes, it was the most mainstream he had been at that point but he was fascinated with music and wanting to do different things. Nile Rogers was producing everyone at that time and most importantly, the music was good!
He had those poppy catching tunes way before that album, but he decided to do some experimental stuff because he was being screwed in His contract. After fullfilling contractual obligations and getting a better deal he decided to put out His catchy tunes.
David Bowie, like Metallica, was called a sell out for every album, starting with betraying twee mainstream britpop for hippy crap, then betraying hippy crap for rock, then betraying rock for glam rock... well, yeah, Outside, no one accused him of being a sell out with that one.
@@rmv9194 Sounds like Prince! 😄
Did people expect him to stay Ziggy stardust
@@nonyobussiness3440 I've noticed that fans don't want their favorite musician to change a lot of the time but at the same time, criticize them for always sounding the same.
I don't think "selling-out" has anything to do with garnering success or popularity - but rather, control. When a band/artist relinquishes creative control of their own music in order to achieve success they are no longer making their art - merely executing someone else's. Ed Sheeran is an excellent example of this.
There's nothing inherently wrong with this (most of us do work we aren't passionate about to pay bills), but it becomes a problem when the artist/band in question is either ignorant of, or refuses to admit to this fact (Ed Sheeran still a great example here too).
Green Day never sold out. They've always proudly worn their punk heritage on their sleeves. American Idiot may have been mixed with more pop, straight-up rock, and alternative influences, but the punk ethos was always there. They've always been doing essentially what bands like The Ramones, The Clash, and The Buzzcocks did years before them, it's just that Green Day figured out a way to make more money out of it than they did.
I think my personal problem with "selling out" is not that bands i like attempt to get bigger and provide some changes in their sound, but that they exchange their uniqueness for a more massive appeal.
Think of bands like Slayer, Meshuggah, Cannibal Corpse, Opeth. They've existed for a long time and they've gained a very reliable and loyal fanbase because they stayed true to themselves and to their audience. They did not attempt "pumping" their audience by softening their sound or singing mellow tunes instead. They were grinding and this grind has payed of. They've walked a very tough path and eventually they were given what they deserve - money, recognition and respect.
In cases like BMTH and Taylor Swift I have a slight feeling that they're more driven to make any music that will bring them dividends instead of mastering a certain genre. Which, imo, takes a lot more diligence.
Feel free to argue. I will value any reasonable counter-argument.
Does anybody remember the Green Day’s Behind The Music where it was basically a “We never sold out” press release?
Metallica’s was similar.
Or the time and effort Zac Brown spent telling people he wasn’t bro country and that he was friends with Dave Grohl.
At the end of the day, none of it mattered. I think the artists were more worried about it than the people who listened to their music.
I could be remembering wrong, but I think both basically saying yeah they sold out, but that’s what they wanted to do. As long as they are doing what they want, who cares?
@@HappinessDIY Green Day’s was definitely a plea to remind people they stayed true to their roots.
Metallica’s was less apologetic.
@@Pasadena_Musicyes. My recollection was about like this:
Billy Joe: should we take the money and keep doing what we are doing? Eff yeah.
Metallica: we had a minor hit with One, that felt nice. Now we want to be number one and will do what we have to to get it.
@@Pasadena_Musicwas Metallica every anti corporate making money. They were huge pretty much early in the career. I don’t recall metal being anti mainstream
@@nonyobussiness3440 they said “yeah, we sellout. Every seat in the house, every time we play.“
I don’t think it was anti making money.
Another thought about Green Day is when they decided to sign with Warner, it wasn't that they wanted to, but they had already become so popular that they were selling out small venues, with extras showing up and completely flooding the places. Billie said it was basically becoming a safety hazard and there was a risk that venues would no longer give them gigs. So it was either sign with a major label and get the support you need for your growing fanbase, or don't and get blacklisted from the local venues. They basically had no choice.
Implicit in any argument that an artist has sold out is an underlying assumption that musicians aren’t actually doing this as their job. If one is a professional musician, paying attention to trends and making music people will want to listen to can reasonably be part of their job. If you run a sandwich shop, and making sandwiches is how you make your money, it would be goofy and dumb to ignore what sandwiches people want to eat.
Good points Finn. Very hard either way you look at it. The aloof metal community especially prefer their bands to stay away from the mainstream - even if it means their heroes are having a better life as a result. I guess if those artists are doing better in their careers they become totally unrelatable and so the older fans turn on them. Great vid Finn !
to me, a "Sellout" is someone who alters his sound to be closer to what is mainstream or anyone how hires external songwriters.
There is a big difference between " I want people to hear MY music" and " let's change so that people will listen to my product"
"Nevermind" by Nirvana is a band that got popular despite being very different from the mainstream at the time
basically all of 2000's Emo/Pop Punk bands ( to me at least) seem to be artists that deliberatly write music with mainstream appeal
one feels sincere artist, the other like buisiness men
I don't have an issue with selling out per se. I think the whole thing about RATM selling out hit a little different because it was their thing that they were going against what was mainstream and being anti-establishment. That was a big part of their identity. For them to sell out is different than the other artists who have sold out, I guess.
Do you not getting it which is that the problem and I think people have of people saying sell it is that well it’s fans saying I want what I want and if I don’t get what I want I’ll throw a fit
When Celtic Frost did Cold Lake, they tried to adapt hair metal to the CF aesthetic, and that didn't work for anyone--even the band. They tried to become more accessible without totally compromising what they were, but there was no landing spot for that monster. Total failure, but at least Tom Warrior didn't try a power ballad.
Just one thing: Maroon 5 were never good.
LOL, exactly.
Also don't forget that Green Day were PRODUCERS of an East Bay Punk documentary and showed so much love in it to Gilman st. and what that venue did for the scene. I don't blame Green Day either, to live worry free of how to pay your bills? I'd do the same day thing.
Punk Rock MBA : "it's complicated"
The complication : $$$$$$$$$$
Preach, man. Preach. Fans who complain about selling out are insecure and want to feel better about themselves. Keeping themselves safe in their circle is more important than anything else.
Classic band changes their sound: they sold out
Classic band doesn't change their sound: they're getting stale/have no fresh ideas anymore
You can't win when the fanbase is toxic
The sad part is that the modern music industry forces artists to "sell out" since they are forced to compromise on their artistic integrity in majority of cases to appeal to as broad an audience as possible. That's why so much of the stuff being churned out today sounds so much the same.
Remember back when Sugar Ray made music for Road Rash games and had song names like Big Black Woman?
What a time to be alive
When I was young I thought selling out was the worst thing a band could do.. then I went into the real world and realized what having a job meant and barely scraping by for years.. then I realized if I was in a band and had the chance to (in theory) make a good living playing music my whole life by signing to a major label I’d have jumped at the opportunity.
“I didn’t sell out, son.. I bought in.”
Coldplay have also been accused of selling out after their solid first three albums, but they're excused since they died and were replaced by actors around 2006.
having two brain aneurysm reading all that mate lol
Taking the money doesn’t make you a sellout. Compromising your integrity for the payout does.
This!
I agree with the idea that Rage Against the machine has sold out. I also agree with John Cooper in the beginning. I say that and Skillet nowadays makes some of the most middle-schooler targeted WWE-commercial/Christian-Youth-Festival music! Meanwhile Rage's classics are all anti-establishment bangers! The problem is that Rage Against the Machine has somehow became very pro-establishment in the last couple of years. From their support of corporate industries like Ticketmaster and Fizer to support of overreaching government lockdowns and mandates over what you can and cannot do with your own body. I've never necessary been on the same page and Rage politically (I've always been more a Metallica-Libertarian as apposed to an Rage-Anarchist), but nowadays I don't even see how their message fits their name or their old music. Nowadays Rage Against the Machine is all for cops locking you in a cage and stabbing you with the products of big pharma! John Cooper might make cringy middle-schooler music to pay the bills, but I do respect that he speaks out against big pharma, big government, and the woke university-establishment. There are others like Tommy Vext and Brent Smith who speak out as well (in an intelligent way, people like Kid Rock and Ivan Moody are of course the opposite extreme, but even though they do more harm than good they are still more "rage against the machine" than modern-day Rage Against the Machine!)
There’s some artists I listened to before they popped off and I was just happy for them. It was cool to see more people listen to them
Finn "so what if bands sell out? That's what I would do" McKenty
I respect Taylor Swift because she very publicly acknowledged shifting from the country sphere to pure pop due to deference and respect she has for the genre. As long as artists are making music honestly, they should be able to play whatever the hell they want. If people like it, great. If not, that's great too.
I think one of the main complaints is the bands growing quicker than their audience.
Being called a "sellout" isnt exclusive to art or music... Ive seen it happened with just about any one of my friends or family who started a business and experienced even the slightest level of success and started living a better and more comfortable life!
Selling out to me is when an artist or band starts allowing the studio or corporation to write their music. You used Taylor Swift as an example, but look up how many of her major hits were written by the studio.
When we called a band a sell-out it was not because they made money, it was because they watered down their sound for the masses. Make money all you want and can.
Thats why glam metal, nu metal, and butt rock are the best rock genre. Nobody cares if they sellout or not, their music always for mainstream audience…
Butt rock supremacy 🙌
Finn, I can't even add anything of value or substance as a comment here. You absolutely Nailed It!!! Everything you said is 100% dead on. Great work!
Maynard said it best… “All you know about me is what I’ve sold you/I sold out long before you ever even heard my name/I sold my soul to make a record/And then you bought one”
Black Eyed Peas would be the purest embodement of the idea of selling out. I thought eventually they were going to get to the punch line but then I realized that when they were supposed to be underground, indy, thoughtful, political that was probably more them selling out. They just became who they really were eventually. Once in awhile I would see or hear a fragment of a glimpse of their contempt for the corporate music machine but I wonder if that was just an accident.
I had a discussion many years ago about bands selling out. He mentioned AC/DC as a sell out because they never changed their sound thinking that's what the fans wanted.
Charlie Harper of the UK Subs said it best. “Punk Rock is about getting out of the gutter! It’s not about being cool and staying in the gutter.”
I’d honestly just want to play the same smallish/mid sized shows. I love the size of hardcore shows like the this is hardcore fest, if I could go to those forever I’d be happy. The space is big enough but not too small, and it feels like a more personal experience.
Judging by how music is monetized today, I think every artist from the 90s would proudly “sell out”.
Honestly, $1700 for a signature guitar, especially one with an official Floyd Rose, is reasonable. Honestly, at that price there's no way its USA built.
To me it’s HOW they sell out.
Good: I want to make money. I have a family and want to move to a safe neighborhood and have security etc.
Bad: what? We didn’t sell out. We have always just done our thing. It is only a coincidence we recorded with Taylor Swift and hired her producer.
And, on a smaller scale, let's not forget about those that proudly proclaim they aren't "selling out" then complain about people not being interested in them and their "true" art when in fact they just refuse to promote themselves. 😂
On the 'only way they can make art is to be poor and depressed' I oddly have a thing with that and Slipknot. I find their first 3 albums just are the most angry and emotional albums of their time and everything after was kinda forced. I beleive the lacking of the 'IT factor' on the later albums is the fact they weren't living dirt poor and the world wasnt crushing them. In no way this is a case study of 'KEEP THEM POOR' just more how surroundings create art and your art creates surroundings.
I always liked how only artists can be sell outs. Nobody else has a cap on fame/money.
When money becomes more important than music, that's selling out.
Henry Rollins was also in "Wrong Turn 2" lol he was good in it
EDIT: Kirk Hammett said years ago that many of Metallica's fans got pissy when "their" little band got too big to fit in their back pocket
20 years ago what I told a dude who called my then fav band Cradle of Filth sellouts. I said "Sure, but so are your fav band. Every band that releases a record is technically a sellout band, because they wanna reach as many people as possible with their music. If they say otherwise, they are lying to you and themselves. You think they wanna work a shitty industrial job or make a living from their music?" dude really had no answer.
I rejoice at the success of the artists I listen to. It means their work is paying off, and it takes alot of work to make it in the music biz... especially in more niche music genres like metal & punk, the machine does not work as hard for you in those genres. Not that making it is easier in mainstream stuff, but the machine is bigger if you do get noticed.
And when an artist changes their sound... I may not like the new stuff, I may even say it's bad (IMO), but I do understand why they change it. People change, artists are also people.
Some artists may do it out of greed, but I do not think most of them fit into that category.
This also reminds me of many of the "great painters" of old... They were completely broke when they were alive and painted those paintings. And now their work is sold for millions upon millions if it's not sitting in a museum collection. You really think those people would not have loved some of that money when they actually were alive? This of course also applies to many composers and authors as well that are long dead now and very celebrated who did not see much of a dime when they were alive.
It is Impossible for anyone with a recording contract not to sell out. no one is going to pay for your million dollar tours and let you have total control of their money, Just like they will not give 100% control over your album because again they front the marketing bill. If a band changes over time some times that is as simple as growth or just being tired of the same Fucking thing, or like we saw at the end of the 80's a drastic change in music that forced a change in bands or forced their death as a band.
It's like about people saying others are posers, as if there was ONE way to be a fan, ONE ONLY way of being an artist, and as if artists, music and art in general was OUR thing. It's the definition of making a fuss and being a child. Artists are not ours, they do what they want, and albums are not made for the fans. It's made for only one reason: because the band enjoyed those songs and playing them. And even a band making music for money is to be respected, as long as they're clear on their intention. If we're stupid enough to buy their cds, it's our problem. Being offended because the evolution of some artists isn't for our taste is our problem, not the bands'. We are always taking EVERYTHING personnaly, it's exhausting
Finn, you missed the real meaning of selling out - losing your values! Money isn't the problem, the problem is when money changes the punks "fight the man" ethos.
A good example of a band that changed to a softer, more accessible sound, but didn't sell out is Life of Agony. Once they changed from hardcore to alternative, they never looked back. That was clearly the music they really wanted to make. They have 1 hardcore album followed by 5 alternative albums. Even after alternative stopped being the most popular form of rock, they kept playing it.
I get what you're saying about selling out, and I myself haven't used that term in a long time... but lately, it just feels like anything that isn't "accessible" music just isn't welcome in the mainstream anymore. Or at least not for long-term success. People these days are the least adventurous they've ever been when it comes to music listening. So, when I see genuinely unique and interesting musicians changing their sound so drastically in order to appeal to them, I'm like - why would you do this for people who don't genuinely appreciate you and will drop you for the next fad?
Keep in mind that this concern of mine is purely in the music sense, and not in the financial sense. I do agree that musicians today need to get the bag however they can, as long as it's not by scummy means.