Aptera's battery module is elegantly designed for easy manufacture
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- Опубликовано: 27 сен 2024
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One slight change I would offer.... I see that the positive pickup tab going to each cell is square cut or sharp corner cut where it meets the larger main bus. If there is the slightest movement between the cells and the bus, those square cut corners will be a tearing point. If even a small radius were used in those corners, the tab would be stronger and much less vulnerable to tearing. Thanks for this battery pack detail Steve!
Chris Anthony mentioned at the EV association conference at Aptera that the battery chemistry would be NMC 811. The production of a battery pack module for reliability and validation testing could be parallel to CTNS manufacturing development.
I hope they have taken into consideration the recent developments in LFP batteries.
* CATL's ShenXing battery with 4C charging speeds and a temperature tolerance range of -20 to +70 degrees with almost zero degradation for the first 100,000 miles.
* the new 'Condenser Batteries' with 500 wh /kg capacity. Right now only marketed for the aviation sector but expected to be available for EVs soon.
As also a co-founder of Flux Power, which uses LiFe batteries, Chris Anthony is on top of battery developments. As a continuous improvement company, Aptera can fold in other tech when the opportunity arises.
@@n.brucenelson5920 Thanks for your qualified input, Bruce. My thoughts exactly. Unlike many automotive companies, Aptera is light on its feet and fast to innovate. There is no huge investment in legacy tech that impede change to latest designs.
500 wh/kg is a bold claim. We don't know what the cycle life of that cell is, the charge/discharge rate capability, the cost, or if it even exists outside of a handful of cells produced in a lab. I would be shocked to see a 500 wh/kg cell in any EV battery pack within the next 5 years. Today's cells with the highest provable energy density used in EVs is still under 300 wh/kg, although there is a CLAIM that the 2024 Nio ET7 has a battery pack with cell energy density of 360 wh/kg.
@@skipondowntheroad5833 I believe they are already testing this with the Electric Flights (aviation sector). Of course it is expensive, which is why it is currently limited only to this sector. I was only pointing out the developments.
ps: I am also waiting to get more details like Cycle life, Volumetric Density, Charge/Discharge speeds, Degradation, Cost etc....
For current cells w/LFP, the new product from CATL/BYD are showing better density for late 2024/1H25. Looking forward to see the interconnect between module bricks, sticking cost / serviceability vs reliability will crucial.
It definitely is an elegant battery pack design. One point about the pack being manufactured in California is that Aptera still has the bulk of their $21 million CA grant (meaning it doesn't have to be paid back) that is unused. This grant will match money spent on local (read CA) manufacture of things like efficient battery packs and solar arrays, which are the two main components used in the Aptera EV which are/were planned to be built in California. It is still uncertain about the battery chemistry (NCM/LFP) even though the 2170 battery size is certain. With the huge spike in tariff costs for solar and batteries from China, it will be interesting to see if that affects Aptera's suppliers and partners. I don't think it will affect the choice of using Maxeon solar cells, but Aptera has switched around quite a bit on their actual battery supplier, but it most likely will not be Eve Energy;. The trick would be being able to get 400 miles of range from a 45kWh, non-Chinese, LFP battery pack. CATL's Shenxing Plus battery has an energy density of 205 watt-hours per kilogram (Wh/kg), which would probably work, but now they will cost more, and may not be available in 2170 format.
I don't see any sign that Aptera will abandoned the original planned 811 chemistry for these first vehicles.
as akwatys, your Aptera work is greatly appreciatied, Steve!
Have a little patience Steve June 6 is not that far away! New timeline will be announced. 9 months from June 30 is March 30. CPC was expected to move than double their presses in 2024. I am sure that some of this was for Aptera. The long lead item was the dies for body panels. I am hoping for spring 2025.
Didn’t hear anything here or recently to cause further delay, and agree mid-2025 is what I’ve thought for awhile and hopefully many answers re: funding & timeframe J6…. not 2b confused with J6 2021.
By 2025 they will have folded. Good luck getting your reservation fee back. Kiss goodbye to whatever money you foolishly 'invested' . It's all legal what they've done by the way.
Excellent! This is the kind of content that makes us all need to see your fine videos.
From a validation standpoint, testing done of the manually made “PI” batteries will evaluate the materials/components for the pack, but not the final production process. So there will still be an assessment bridge to be built to approve the automated build process.
Great stuff Steve, It also appears the 4680 also uses a larger (wider) tabs to each battery likely due to greater current capacity for each battery compared to 2170s.
It is a good sign that Aptera takes this shortcut readily available route.
That could mean all the financing are already done waiting for a final signatures from all parties.
CTNS is quite far from producing battery packs, why not Flux Power for first few thousands of Aptera.
Financing in June, first Aptera produced in April 2025.
I'm glad to see the battery chemistry choice made last. I want the latest tech, don't you? This the fastest changing tech in EVs.
Looks more DIY friendly. Not anyone would get to this level for a repair.
Better to design a reliable battery that does not need fixing, a reparable battery adds cost, weight, complexity and is less reliable.
The new Aptera battery pack design should hold up better ina high vibration and shock environment than the Lucid-style pack.
Hi Steve, thanks again for breaking this all down, agreed, providing your analysis and well done! I hope we get more details on the 6/6 investor call.
Just a suggestion, please use a larger easier to see pointer or an index pointer finger style pointer.
Good progress is being made, but this design should have been tested and frozen a year ago.
Still looking forward to my Aptera but maybe in 26.
Sometimes during testing and validation, the design proves inadequate, or somebody realizes an alternative design is so much better that a delay is worthwhile. That's why prototype testing is done. Comparing the older battery pack design with the new, I think this is one of those cases, assuming the more rigid design holds up in shock and vibration testing.
On the other hand, "There comes a time in the history of every project when it is necessary to shoot the engineers and go into production." Generally, that comes when the gains from further iteration using available technology are small compared to the cost of further delays. The finance side of the company is as eager for production to commence as the customers are.
@@paulbade3566
Right that should have happened a year or more ago, how many other things in the Aptera design are still in flux?
I'am sure the change to make the Aptera fast charging added a year, cost, weight and complexity.
Still looking forward to my Aptera but maybe in 26/27.
Great explanation Steve!
this is, hands down, the most positively charged comment on this video
@@rotten_oasis8490 🤣
Based on the number of iterations on this design it seems entirely likely that other range editions of the Aptera might very well see different designs. Especially as battery technology keeps improving. The better options might be quite different by the time we get to the 1000 mile version.
I still wish Launch Editions had a 500 mile battery.
Yeah, I feel Aptera is starting with battery technology that is proven and reliable, but they can update along with the technology as it evolves. The additional weight is even a bit of an advantage as it will help Aptera hold the road better.
I had thought that all the battery pack manufacture will be done right on the factory floor other than the cells. It will eventually all be on the floor.
Neat stuff. Thanks
I haven't been keeping up with the news. Were there any updates regarding EV tax credits?
I also found the information about the battery pack to be interesting. There was no mention of CTNS at all. My understanding was that CTNS was going to deliver 100 batteries, made in their factory, and then the machinery would be delivered to CA. I assumed the 100 batteries had already been built, and we saw Chris M demo one in a previous video.
This makes me question that assumption. The previous battery was similar but different. Most notably, it had a blue plastic frame while this one is grey. I also could have sworn the previous battery pack was smaller, although I have not gone back and looked. I could just be imagining things, and if it was smaller, it was not THAT much smaller.
This also appears to be one of six battery modules, so I'm assuming that hasn't changed.
Just speculating at this point, the worst case scenario is that for whatever reason, CTNS is no longer working on the battery pack. Aptera decided to go with Flux Power or whoever instead, any they produced the battery packs that will be used for the PI builds, and will produce the robots that will build the packs. I consider this unlikely, because CTNS is just so useful for producing battery packs in Europe and Asia. This could only mean the partnership failed and I don't want to speculate about that.
A more likely scenario that occurs to me is that CTNS was unable to deliver the 100 battery packs in time. We still don't know if Aptera is still using EVE for the actual batteries, but if they are, CTNS would have to order them from the US, or source a local battery manufacturer. Aptera might have felt it was better to use a local manufacturer for the PI builds.
This means that Flux Power isn't going to build the production line batteries, this is a temporary assembly "by hand" to get the batteries out for testing. Once CTNS is ready with the machinery, they can open a factory here in the States, or Aptera's local partner can receive the machines and begin full scale production.
None of this is certain though. We'll have to wait to hear more.
As for the schedule, I'd say the end of 2025 is likely, but mid 2025 is probably also possible, if optimistic. Hopefully we will get more details in June. But for me the question is whether the Accelerator vehicles will be delivered earlier. They can be, certainly, the plan was to make them by hand if there wasn't funding to begin full scale production. But Aptera will likely consider turning out the Accelerator vehicles in the production line now that they know they can.
I really think Aptera sould begin deliveries as soon as possible just to prove they aren't going to go bankrupt without delivering anything. And that will encourage investment as well. But a few months delay isn't going to hurt anything, especially if production ends up starting sooner rather than later
CTNS was going to build 200 packs in Korea and then send the equipment to the US. I see no evidence that this is not happening.
CTNS could still deliver the first 200 battery packs after the PI vehicles have been built. It's also possible that this is one of the battery packs that CTNS built, even though it's sides are grey and not blue. However, if the "local partner" is welding the batteries as Tim.says, then the battery packs were incomplete when they arrived.
As I said, this is all speculation and we have not heard anything that would suggest CTNS is no longer involved. It's possible that we will learn more at the webinar on June 6, but it's not a big deal if it isn't discussed. All we need to know is if there are batteries for the PI builds, and if there will be batteries in time for production.
CTNS was just another story to keep you guys on the hook, wake up - Chris Anthony and co. will never deliver, your money and your vehicle are never coming. Move on. And forgive yourselves for falling for this the second time they did it.
“…put into Series..No, no, no, no..Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah…” 😂😂😂
I would hate to have to select a abttery at this point. The tech is moving so quickly right now it's making my head spin. CATL's new battery looks pretty amazing. Hope the US keeps it out of our borders or they'll take over everything.
That would make everyone poorer.
Where is your spirit of competition?
The new Natron Sodium Ion batteries are looking really good.
@@Kukaboora It’s not so simple…. govt. sponsored corporate espionage/IP theft. In US we do it the old fashion way (private sector patent infringement) 😀
I don't know that it is all that hard at the moment. Tesla has and is using either NMC or NCA battery chemistries fir the longe range and performance models. They are only using LFP in their standard range models.
@@gljames24 For home, business, and grid stationary electricity storage, though.
I prefer LFP too
LFP makes more sense to me for a solar vehicle since there is no penalty for charging to 100% and there is more cycle life. I’m aware that most of my cars have had the ability to turn off charging at a set percentage. I set my cars to charge to 80% mostly because fast charging slows down dramatically at that point, but I also do it at home because I want to preserve cycle life so the battery lasts as long as possible, not to mention I will not ever use the whole battery in normal daily life.
I know that Aptera has a deal for LFP in the future. Possibly for the 250 mile version which would make it much better since the entire 250 miles would be usable. I had a Tesla with 230 miles of range and I was normally charging to 190 miles, but a few Superchargers were over 150 miles apart so I was forced to charge to 100% and that is like watching paint dry. Rather than sit for hours watching the car charge a 7kW above 95%, I just unplugged and drove slower until the Route Planner said I would have enough power to make it.
LFP does not do as well in cold weather, so you have to keep that in mind if the car can’t be plugged in at home
Same here. LFP seems better for this application
@DreyZee-vn3kl the power density is reportedly about 30% less for LFP vs NMC batteries. I know that there are LFP cells available in the 2170 format. If you were to replace the NMC cells with LFP in the 45kWh pack it would become a ~32kWh pack.
@@garywozniak7742 a lot of people wouldn't mind that. Alot of people would use the Aptera a a second vehicle just primarily for commuting to work and maybe some errands. with Aptera's efficiency, it still OK for daily use to have lower range. I actually prefer a 250 variant aptera with just front wheel drive but with full solar. the reason I prefer LFP is because those type of batteries loves to be topped off, unlike NMC. battery degradation is quicker in NMC. with LFP, you basically have a million mile battery.
@DreyZee-vn3kl I originally ordered the 250-mile variant and only changed to the LE when they mentioned that they would be manufacturing it first.
The thin part is the weakest link. I would imagine the shock and vibration test will be looking closely at these points. They had the material, why not make it wider?
Could its width also be acting as a fuse?
@@glennzajic7318 Yeah this is what I think. A short would cause the wire to melt through, and thereby disconnect the bad cell from the circuit.
Short circuit current on a 2170 cell would be huge, maybe 200+ amps , and those links look very much like fuses at that level.
One of your last statements in the video, you don’t expect deliveries until late 2025. Makes a lot of sense. Capital has not been raised yet, so if you were to add another 9 months to production we’re already into 1st quarter 2025….i sure hope your wrong though.
Pack looks good, smart.
I think the company and over keys to a PI vehicle, maybe this year?
Hey Rich, looking forward to hearing your take on US Capital, and your insights after the June 6 investor briefing.
I would rather see fewer larger cells. The more connections you have the more chances for faults you have.
Still absolutely stunned that they didn’t have a set of pre-production parts ready to combine with the BinC’s upon arrival.
The Gamma is/was a nice piece of work so clearly they know how to prototype. They’ve gotten tremendous value from it.
The Delta design is roughly 17 months old. An Aptera is not a complicated vehicle. From the design/development standpoint, the desire to put your solution together and push it is a real burning to the core of your soul thing. It’s why you do what you do.
Hopefully, the 6/6 presentation will show unprecedented focus on completion, calibration, and test of full-system PI’s.
As a customer, you want to say “Hey, THIS, is what we’re getting.” As an investor, they need to say “Hey, THIS is what they’re building”.
A million by 2030 is amusing to talk about, but they need to stop dicking around and focus on the product, the product, the product.
If the product is good it should sell itself by what it does and how well.
Put it together and let it run!
LiFePO4 should be the battery chemistry
It's more stable, it lasts longer, and there is no cobalt for problematic material sourcing.
Yes it's less energy dense, but with a vehicle as efficient as the Aptera? I suspect the drop in range wouldn't be a huge deal for most people
At that point, they should use the new Sodium Ion batteries as they are very similar in terms of benefits, but can handle the cold better.
Reportedly about 30% less than the NMC chemistry. There are LFP cells in the 2170 cell that are available. The pack fully populated with 2170 LFP cells would be about ~32kWh rather than 45kWh with the NMC cells.
If Aptera is still going to have ~2900 cells according to Chris A, I'm coming up with an 18s 27p configuration with comes up with 2,916 cells and 53.2kWh. It seems to me that I have done the math wrong as they have been saying the pack is ~45kWh. Anyone have some insight or a better combination?
A lot of time there is a buffer. The battery in my VW is 82kWh with 77kWh usable. My Fiat also had a buffer
You really can't use the bottom 10% do to battery degradation in lithium ion cells.
I am wondering where Aptera will align itself with the CATL LFP Batteries that can go 621 miles on a single charge, charge at 4C, and have one million mile durability? If Aptera could use these batteries, what range could we expect?
2900 or 2916.
Does it make a huge difference?
Could you both be right?
For example, I manage the books where I work. The boss may ask me how much a bill was this month. The actual amount might be $14,386.42. But I'd probably just tell him $14,400 or $14,500.
Is it possible Chris A was doing something like this?
Having said all that. I would definitely like to have specific and accurate information. I'm very much looking forward to the PI builds and the information those vehicles will give us.
If the battery is 56 kWh instead of 45 kWh that will certainly help it's range.
Let's not throw out the 45 kWh number though.
I never understood the references to flux power. It’s market capital is less than 50 million and it’s better if we don’t talk about it
I have invested in their stock. Had one of the first year reserves. Unfortunately, they are beginning to fall into The trap of Elio . Postponed year after year, our group decided if it would not build in 24, we would pull orders. It was released in march no go for 24. We are only 11 of 30. Our groups only are 100k in investing together investors. We only invested what we could loose. The longer Postponed no $$ coming in, they will run out of $$ unless they pick up a Warren B type. Or build something to sell in the mean time.
I wish and hope they will succeed. But there is disclosure on another tech that should begin to be released in 2026-28. Then the power will need to be redesigned. But let's hope I'm wrong.. I wanted this so bad. Just ones who can't afford, hold you can purchase if released. It's all a gamble? APTERA has so much against them because they are great. The powers in the world are doing all they can to exhaust there means. Not fair, unethical trust me.. They deserve to be released. Fingers crossed..
Not battery related. Will Aptera float? If so, for how long? If not, will the doors open underwater? If not, what size person will fit through the roll- down portion of the windows?
if so, will the tires act like propellers!?! if so, could it be driven to Hawaii?
@@rotten_oasis8490 - Plus, will the Aptera need to be registered as a boat too? Also, will it survive if it hits a bridge?
@@JoeBManco - Yes you can. Plus, the seats will have personal flotation devices in them too, just in case the Aptera boat starts taking on water.
@@JoeBManco - There are optional life rafts that will be mounted on the side of the Aptera boat.
¿How can a single cell be isolated? I recall this claim being made.
Just a guess, but maybe a current detection tool akin to what can be used to detect live vs. dead wires in buildings (behind walls)…. 1. Find an underperforming block then either swap or, 2. Find dead cell. 🤷🏻
If the batteries are wired in series than you would see a voltage increase for each successive battery in the circuit. . If you sequentially measured the voltage increase from the first battery cell to the next, if you do not observe the expected voltage increase on a particular cell, you have found a bad cell.
Another good video AOC. Even 2026 could be a challenge. June 6th, new investment recruiting strategy starts. PI can't finish until funding mostly secured. Final testing comes after PI design and assembly. 9 months at the least to install production facility. Good news would be 18 months. Early 2026 but Aptera has never had good news with development schedule. In the meantime, EV market is kind of falling apart.
You have no clue!
@@gmv0553 List your timeline. My comment didn't even address price revision (upwards) or outcome of never demonstrated key performance values.
I recall Aptera saying that CTNS would be building the initial packs in SK. At least the first few hundred. I noticed that that had changed a couple videos back. This was besides the assembly line they talked about building stateside. I have wondered what evolved there. So glad they moved away from the unrealistic belly pan cooling/heating concept.
Being an investor and place holder, I most likely will not buy the Aptera with the NMC battery. Nothing against Aptera. I wouldn't buy any EV with NMC cells. Jist a personal preference.
As a person who has spent a good part of my career in thermal design, and have designed and delivered some high profile projects, I can tell you that the belly pan design is FAR from unrealistic.
I believe the change is temporary, and mainly due to the additional capital expense of tooling for the belly pan.
@@n.brucenelson5920 Of course we have different opinions on that. Although I'm content to defer to your higher level of experience in thermal design, I have not been able to satisfy thermal extreme environments and any designs I've seen where the belly pan would have a controllable thermal bridge to mitigate the extremes. There just seems to be too many uncontrolled variables to make it practical. Peace!
Isn't Flux Power Chris Anthony's company?
Yes and it's share price tanked almost 90%
@@shrimptopian3392 Yet they're still around 3 years later. I dont know what their IPO price was but I could see the chart, it went up to $17 and sits at $3, but it's not the 90% you said.
With the new Tesla coming out for $25k, with full self driving, idek if it'll be worth it anymore to get the Aptera :/ looks sick and I love solar tho..
1st: Will Tesla actually realize a $25K vehicle? 2nd: If Aptera can get you more than twice as far down the road as that vehicle for every kWh consumed, and well over half of its yearly kWh's come free from its solar cells, it will be far more economical and Earth friendly to operate. It's aerodynamics and weight savings from one less wheel, two less seats & doors, composite body and less drive gearing given its in-wheel motors alone make it less hefty and resource hoggy.
Have any of you done a deep dive into Flux Power? Those packs are for forklifts , that's a very different use case. Also look at the financials of Flux power - not good.
After watching the video, then looking at the title, it's pretty much clickbait. The title assumes that Aptera somehow found out an easy way to make battery packs, yet the rest of the industry has not. It could also mean , Aptera decided to go with an easy to manufacture battery pack as opposed to a hard way.
I'd think that any competent engineer today would rather go the easy way over hard. Maybe Aptera is the only company that hires competent engineers?
Aptera, permanently in 'production intent' mode in the same way I'm in 'billionaire intent' mode. 😂
Don't mistake something visually appealing as being better with regards to efficiency and ease of manufacturing. What is more interesting is the University of London determined that the best way to cool a 2170 is actually side cooling and 4680 should end face tab cooling. Yet this actually was not wholly accurate for the very reason Tesla does side cooling. See, most studies looking at cell cooling for cylindrical batteries was performed similar to pouch testing which meant without the case, just the "jelly roll". As soon as the cell is encased the cells retain more heat across their entirety and base cooling is no longer an optimal solution. Meaning we are back to the side cooling that Tesla uses which contacts more surface area of the cylindrical cell resulting in lower temperatures per cell. Really, the case changes how the cell retains heat to such an extent base cooling is not optimal.
But - in the end both solutions work and it comes down to what each manufacturer needs for their product. Aptera is not doing anything revolutionary and I doubt their pack is more dense than Lucid.
I wonder how well bottom-only cooling will work if DC charging goes above 50kW. Aptera efficiency will make sure cooling during discharge is fine, but going to 150kW or 250kW charging would be a stretch. 50kW is plenty for the 400 mile battery, but might seem too small for the 600 and 1000 mile versions. Future development.
DCFC is one consideration but regen-braking could put much more than 50kW into the pack with 3 motors each able to produce 50kW as well as draw that much. Granted regen-braking is generally in short bursts but if you are going down a long hill, that might not be a short burst. Of course the BCU will monitor and limit the regen and cooling of the battery.
I agree. The 60 kWh and 100 kWh batteries will probably need more robust cooling. Hopefully this will be possible without a major redesign of the battery pack.
The issue is C rate not absolute charging rate. A larger charge rate can be supported by a proportionally larger battery pack. So 50kw in 400mile battery would be a lower charge rate than 100kw in a 1000 mile battery.
I want to be able to replace my own cells, like in any other electonics and recycle them at the local recycle center, ACTUALLY RECYCLE, not have them end up incinerated, in a landfill or dumped in the Pacific like a lot of supposed recyclables
Li battery packs are typically taken out of vehicle use at around 80% capacity and then go into stationary backup applications. They are too valuable to incinerate or dump
@@n.brucenelson5920 no, they're not
And with the purchase of a laser welder think of all the money you will save.
@@glennzajic7318 I can't use my light saber?
It is unlikely that you would be able to easily do that. Chris McCammon mentioned for all practicality, that individual modules might be replaceable, but not individual cells within the modules.
.........waiting on the funds (Debt Deal) to just start the build of the production line.........still waiting.........maybe still waiting in 2025.........