As a silver 3 (from Bronze 1 earlier this season) ADC main this information was something I never really considered. I started buying pinks a while back, but really ignored enemy minions when trading/all ining, and completely disregarded the trading stance as well as playing around cooldowns. I will 100% try to use this information in games, thanks.
Hey man, just wanted to let you know I really appreciate this series. There's a lot of how to get good at league videos out there, but yours are so well done and well organized and concise and you really know what you're talking about. Keep it up, please, it's extremely helpful.
Thanks, Phroxzon for this guide. I have been waiting for this for a long time. :D I have been a support main for all of the seasons since the 1st season and I only play 2 characters for support: Soraka and Annie. Your long videos have greatly helped me move from gold to platinum. These season I have been playing a lot less but after watching these new series, even though I played less, theres have been a lot of 'quality' to my games lately. Diamond smurfs that I have been vsing or been playing with as allies sometimes can't believe that I am just platinum. Not to brag but sometimes I do carry the game as a support, thanks to these long lecture + these new series. Anyway, this latest new episode really is good especially the table you have made with the kind of supports, I liked it. Thumbs up and keep up the good work! :D
Really good guide dude, I am main support, high diamond 3 in s7 and I totally agree with you. I wasn't only sure about the matchups, I am a main thresh and for me there is some exceptions in all the matchups. Still a very good guide, I knew a lot of tips (some of them that i couldn't explain but doing it in game) and discovered 1-2. Susbcribed.
I'm still a scrappy silver 5 player and was surprised how easy it was to take the trading stance into a game and totally obliterate my opponent first try. not to say I'm any good at it but I learned to play defensively first so I was using it to work on my aggressive play. what worked for me early on was using it like little Windows of aggression. my friend who says I have a lot to improve but could get better if I tried said I needed to learn the power spikes of each champ and I'm finding that this video in particular really helps even if it's support focus. it tells me how my supports will interact when previously I was only thinking about adc counters. but when I have to play support I tend to play Janna or Leo since they changed soraka and I'm just not as good with her anymore. now I'll play with my support better and not against them if I focus on these tips. I really like these videos as I would like to make it to gold by the end of the year. now I have lots to think about once I get trading stance and retaliation trading down to muscle memory.
Support is one of the best roles to learn early in my opinion. I learned a lot about the game maining support because I didn't have to focus on CS and spent more time focusing on map control. You don't get the glory of a carry but you can be the reason why your ADC carries. Put a bunch of games in with Leona from Bronze 5 to Silver 1 last season. Ward, Ward, Ward, Ward some more, then lock down their team with all of the CC, Ward, take objective, Ward more, win because you're an unstoppable CC machine who gave his ADC 5 kills in 10 minutes.
+Seth hmm not rly. If she was in disruptor category, all of her match ups wouldn't make sense. She is weak against all ins and cannot win against sustain unless every shield is perfect and adc is on point. But she is strong against disruptors (Ali, leona). It's just because of the category name I chose. If I chose the name warden or guardian instead of disruptor then you probably wouldn't be thinking she fits in that category.
1. It should be noted that I love your videos, and really hope you continue to do them. Your content is by far the most informative and helpful on the web that I've ever run into. I'm so glad that you're back to making content for me to try to suck less with. 2. I'm a bit confused as to what you're classifying as "disruption" lanes. Like, I saw in another comment where you referred to them as "wardens", but it still seems awkward. Looking at them as a group, that would be what I'd classify as the best zone control/counter-engage out of the role minus Zyra and Bard. It feels like this... "other group" that people kind of got put into because they have abilities to either shut down engagements (Ali, Braum, Leo) or nullify things (Morg, Taric). Am I getting at it? Because it kind of feels like Morg would be a poke champion aside from that, thanks to thunderlords, and Ali belongs as an all-in one.... In which case, do Bard and Zyra (and maybe Janna?? I might be overvaluing things like tornado in theory) also sort of belong in the group? Just looking for the conceptual framework, I guess, so that maybe I can expand it and use it to make better decisions elsewhere.
10:15 This tactic applies with Annie Q as well. You can stun with Q to get a guaranteed ult and W proc on one person instead of a 70% chance to hit 2 by stunning with ult.
Explain this pls: 6:15 to 6:22 You go in to fight them ant take pointless damage. Why not just ward the bush (since you're sitting on 2 wards) and zone them off while nullifying the bush zone extender?
as long as leo doesnt play agro before lvl 3 and keeps hp she does well into poke. you run in with half hp, blow everything along with your adc and then there is very little retaliation in a short fight
In perfect world engage wins versus poke. But in reality engages are easier to fuck up than poke. Leona misses E, Thresh/Naut/Blitz misses Q etc. Poke champions have DECENT disengage at best.
+Jek_si yes you are right, but that's only leona specifically. That's why leona face is not in the all in category against poke, but she is against sustain.
Your videos are always easy to understand and packed with information that elevates my play! Thanks a lot for continuing to do these - do you play less now because you don't want to or because there is just less reward for it?
Not sure if it was my comment or multiple comments that might have suggested it, but thank you so much for referencing your other videos specifically in relevance to the current one. Also, would you consider Annie a disruption support or poke support? On a personal note, I feel Janna is more disruption than poke. If nothing else the fact she's the queen of disengage should testify that.
All supp champ can be poke, disrupt, all in, or sustain. If you enemy keeps on poking you, try to play sustain. If they all in you, try to disrupt. If they only try to disrupt, keep poking, etc.
Alistar can poke ? hmm didn't know he had anything that is ranged. and blitzcrank can sustain ? didn't know he had a heal. Not trying to troll, but my point is that although a champ might fit into more than one, no champ can really do all 4. you have to have a heal to be sustain, if you don't you don't. you have to have something ranged for poke, you have to have CC from range (hook) or CC that moves you (leo E) to be an all-in. you have to stop them in their tracks to be disrupt. a champ might have 2 or even 3 of these, but not all 4.
As an adc should I try and force my sp to poke if she's a lulu vs alistar but just sits behind me or should I just follow her playstyle and just let them have wave control.
In the botlane matchup there is ~effective ranged attack~ versus ~it'self and sustain~ there is ~grab and delete~ versus ~grab denial and effective counter-engage~ If you ever find yourself missing tools for the entire first line, don't attempt to compete, if you have no effective range or sustain, don't play the ranged-poke and sustain game, just wait. If you ever find yourself missing tools for the entire second line, don't attempt to compete, if you have no effective counter-engage power in this match up then don't allow grab champs to hit. Just move away when dangerous just like everyone has learned to do against blitz. Botlane is all about ranged attacks back and forth, things with more range or more sustain have more power if they manage to hit. The only exception to this is champions that grab your squishy booty, With a _Long Range_ engage tool! That's it, have fun out there. :D
So in botlane MAtchups table we have Leona placed in weird place, is she disrupt or all in after all ? I guess both ;p EDIT: Oh, I have now downloaded image where it is corrected :P Error is just in video.
+Seth yes, theoretically, but both adc and support will not enter trading stance together if they will lose the trade. (assuming equal match). They will have factored in Zyra using q to hit both of them and that they can out trade it. Also they can still both be in range on the arc without standing on top of each other.
does zyra wins into a sona almost every time. auto, q and a plant *(thunderlords too) take her to either 1/2 hp or 1/2 mana and she cant trade at all after? i play zyra with a 65% win ratio and i always feel a sona is a free win. poke the adc lvl 1-3, then try and burst her at lvl 3
+Un7ucky it's a skill match-up and then sona is more useful mid game. It's also just a general guide. Sona hammers everyone in that list except Zyra, except I wouldn't leave out Zyra, because soraka is strong against Zyra poke. Maybe I could've used arrows or something but it would've been pretty messy.
Shouldn't Zyra be considered as both an all-in and poke champion though? She has the traits of both with her Q and plant poke, abusing and establishing zones of control, while still having the bush ambush and minion-piercing CC.
You said All In > Poke but in your explication you said Hook/Disrupt get poked out and can't engage with Leona as an example. Why isn't the same with Thresh? If you poke thresh, he can't all-In at all. How All-In > Poke?
I'm not 100% certain, but it might be that Thresh can choose to not engage on his Q. He can hold a target stationary for a few moments and then back off. Blitz, Naut, and Leona all have to stick their faces in, but Thresh chooses. That's just my guess.
+Charles Vigneault Thresh can control brush cause he's ranged. He can also push the lane early so they don't get poked out. See episode 3 to see why pushing the lane prevents you getting poked. (if Melee tries to push the lane they'll take a lot more harass than thresh will)
all these champions stay in the same category so yes the chart is still correct in my oppinion, a few messages ago they say Tahm kench is disrupt, and Zilean is poke. :) i hope this helped.
Okay i have 1 queston that really bugs me- what's the point of playing adc champs that dont scale well like lucian or cait? Here's what i think- if u dont stomp the lane like 5/0 vs someone like vayne then in mid-late game u are a thrash with little usefulness. However if u play a hypercarry vs bully you always have 2nd chance to come back just bc of your scalling. And if i'm a hypercarry and i get 1st blood then my bully is soo screwed for the rest of the game. Its kinds unfair that vayne or kog stomps everything after 25-30 min even when they had 0/6 in 10 min... That is a big problem to me because i'm in low elo (silver) and my team cant close the games fast when we are vs someone like nass or hypercarry...
That's kind of the beauty of team comp. yes it does seem like they have a second chance but your talking about vayne and kogmaw who struggle early game. if you are 5/0 and completely stomp your lane partner it's up to you to roam at the correct times and help feed the rest of your team so you can close out that mid game. I used to ask myself the same question after every loss but after watching a lot of videos from higher level players I've realized I can't say my team didn't do x. if that's your complaint then you need to take a step back and look at your contribution mid and late game. where you at the correct place when a team fight broke out. did you encourage them to take that inhibited at the right time. a lot of winning Low elo games seems like you have to spell out what the right play is and communicate. not to say your aren't going to have trolls and feeders but if you focus on that you aren't focusing on your mistakes and miss plays.
i was playing blitzs in anromal game and ia was facing against an alistar my biggest mistake was pulling in alistar..... he gotta a 5 man know up i guess u can say i got a 5 man knock up
![Pointers in C / C++ [Full Course]](/img/1.gif)
As a silver 3 (from Bronze 1 earlier this season) ADC main this information was something I never really considered. I started buying pinks a while back, but really ignored enemy minions when trading/all ining, and completely disregarded the trading stance as well as playing around cooldowns. I will 100% try to use this information in games, thanks.
wow a bronze player agreeing to be bad and not blaming teammates? What is this? :D
Seth clever person living in reality. thats what it is
fk im in silver dont learn this shit im not gonna climb bitch
Seth someone who isn't bronze anymore
Hey man, just wanted to let you know I really appreciate this series. There's a lot of how to get good at league videos out there, but yours are so well done and well organized and concise and you really know what you're talking about. Keep it up, please, it's extremely helpful.
+Alex Harward thanks man, really appreciate it
AYYYYYY~
Gj mate. I've seen many League channels but none can compare to the wealth of knowledge you provide. Keep up the good work.
God tier bot lane tutorial. I truly hope every player watches it.
Thanks, Phroxzon for this guide. I have been waiting for this for a long time. :D I have been a support main for all of the seasons since the 1st season and I only play 2 characters for support: Soraka and Annie. Your long videos have greatly helped me move from gold to platinum. These season I have been playing a lot less but after watching these new series, even though I played less, theres have been a lot of 'quality' to my games lately. Diamond smurfs that I have been vsing or been playing with as allies sometimes can't believe that I am just platinum. Not to brag but sometimes I do carry the game as a support, thanks to these long lecture + these new series. Anyway, this latest new episode really is good especially the table you have made with the kind of supports, I liked it. Thumbs up and keep up the good work! :D
9:40 "You should also almost always", good tune to that line!
Really good guide dude, I am main support, high diamond 3 in s7 and I totally agree with you. I wasn't only sure about the matchups, I am a main thresh and for me there is some exceptions in all the matchups. Still a very good guide, I knew a lot of tips (some of them that i couldn't explain but doing it in game) and discovered 1-2. Susbcribed.
I'm still a scrappy silver 5 player and was surprised how easy it was to take the trading stance into a game and totally obliterate my opponent first try. not to say I'm any good at it but I learned to play defensively first so I was using it to work on my aggressive play. what worked for me early on was using it like little Windows of aggression. my friend who says I have a lot to improve but could get better if I tried said I needed to learn the power spikes of each champ and I'm finding that this video in particular really helps even if it's support focus. it tells me how my supports will interact when previously I was only thinking about adc counters. but when I have to play support I tend to play Janna or Leo since they changed soraka and I'm just not as good with her anymore. now I'll play with my support better and not against them if I focus on these tips. I really like these videos as I would like to make it to gold by the end of the year. now I have lots to think about once I get trading stance and retaliation trading down to muscle memory.
Support is one of the best roles to learn early in my opinion. I learned a lot about the game maining support because I didn't have to focus on CS and spent more time focusing on map control. You don't get the glory of a carry but you can be the reason why your ADC carries. Put a bunch of games in with Leona from Bronze 5 to Silver 1 last season. Ward, Ward, Ward, Ward some more, then lock down their team with all of the CC, Ward, take objective, Ward more, win because you're an unstoppable CC machine who gave his ADC 5 kills in 10 minutes.
every sentence he say is like he's asking me a question
Tung Hatastic LOL
Doesnt Janna fit more into the disrupt category rather then poke?
Disrupt and sustain, even though she has a shield
yeah right, thats where i put her too
+Seth hmm not rly. If she was in disruptor category, all of her match ups wouldn't make sense.
She is weak against all ins and cannot win against sustain unless every shield is perfect and adc is on point. But she is strong against disruptors (Ali, leona).
It's just because of the category name I chose.
If I chose the name warden or guardian instead of disruptor then you probably wouldn't be thinking she fits in that category.
She is weak against all in ? have you lost your mind ?
i see. the category names shouldnt be taken too seriously then.
1. It should be noted that I love your videos, and really hope you continue to do them. Your content is by far the most informative and helpful on the web that I've ever run into. I'm so glad that you're back to making content for me to try to suck less with.
2. I'm a bit confused as to what you're classifying as "disruption" lanes. Like, I saw in another comment where you referred to them as "wardens", but it still seems awkward. Looking at them as a group, that would be what I'd classify as the best zone control/counter-engage out of the role minus Zyra and Bard. It feels like this... "other group" that people kind of got put into because they have abilities to either shut down engagements (Ali, Braum, Leo) or nullify things (Morg, Taric). Am I getting at it? Because it kind of feels like Morg would be a poke champion aside from that, thanks to thunderlords, and Ali belongs as an all-in one.... In which case, do Bard and Zyra (and maybe Janna?? I might be overvaluing things like tornado in theory) also sort of belong in the group? Just looking for the conceptual framework, I guess, so that maybe I can expand it and use it to make better decisions elsewhere.
10:15 This tactic applies with Annie Q as well. You can stun with Q to get a guaranteed ult and W proc on one person instead of a 70% chance to hit 2 by stunning with ult.
Explain this pls: 6:15 to 6:22
You go in to fight them ant take pointless damage. Why not just ward the bush (since you're sitting on 2 wards) and zone them off while nullifying the bush zone extender?
This was a couple months ago now but he has a soraka support is why. He won the trade.
dude, make more of these. these are great!
3:00 Does not poke have an edge vs engage? If the leo is at half hp she can't realy engage. Besides poke champs have good disengage.
as long as leo doesnt play agro before lvl 3 and keeps hp she does well into poke. you run in with half hp, blow everything along with your adc and then there is very little retaliation in a short fight
In perfect world engage wins versus poke. But in reality engages are easier to fuck up than poke. Leona misses E, Thresh/Naut/Blitz misses Q etc. Poke champions have DECENT disengage at best.
+Jek_si yes you are right, but that's only leona specifically. That's why leona face is not in the all in category against poke, but she is against sustain.
+unswlolsoc Ty.
+Un7ucky I generaly play agresssive on leo if and use bushes to deny poke. leo ward trick helps.
You aren't telling me that janna, karma and zyra have bad disengage? The only one they won't be able to disengage from is Blitz.
Your videos are always easy to understand and packed with information that elevates my play! Thanks a lot for continuing to do these - do you play less now because you don't want to or because there is just less reward for it?
+Addison I play less because it takes so long to make these videos lol. Took 100 hours to make this one (roughly).
You can make a video about warding and sweeping. Where should we ward or sweep.
I play a lot of Poppy Support and it works pretty well most of the time, especially against Shen support or Rakan Support.
most useful vid i've ever seen.
Thanks for this video really helps me. Alot of things I didn't knew before.
Wow i was never sure as a all in champ if we are allowed to fight or not.Now i do thanks
hey man, is there any chance of you could make an updated Bot Lane Matchup 3:08 - thanks friend
In which category from 3:15 would you say Trundle fits?
+pedrobv disruptor
Not sure if it was my comment or multiple comments that might have suggested it, but thank you so much for referencing your other videos specifically in relevance to the current one. Also, would you consider Annie a disruption support or poke support?
On a personal note, I feel Janna is more disruption than poke. If nothing else the fact she's the queen of disengage should testify that.
yay, now I can choose fill in ranked. :P
Why is Alistar not listed as all-in?
+Jek_si no space probably
u earned my like for making a vid about supp now lets go with video and see. (liked it before watching even)
All supp champ can be poke, disrupt, all in, or sustain. If you enemy keeps on poking you, try to play sustain. If they all in you, try to disrupt. If they only try to disrupt, keep poking, etc.
Alistar can poke ? hmm didn't know he had anything that is ranged. and blitzcrank can sustain ? didn't know he had a heal. Not trying to troll, but my point is that although a champ might fit into more than one, no champ can really do all 4. you have to have a heal to be sustain, if you don't you don't. you have to have something ranged for poke, you have to have CC from range (hook) or CC that moves you (leo E) to be an all-in. you have to stop them in their tracks to be disrupt. a champ might have 2 or even 3 of these, but not all 4.
Owren Lefebvre-Rosborough Rakan?
are disruptors the champs that are good defenders? that seems to be what they have in common.
As an adc should I try and force my sp to poke if she's a lulu vs alistar but just sits behind me or should I just follow her playstyle and just let them have wave control.
Any way i could get an updated link to lecture 15? Not sure if it was removed on purpose, or it simply went away when youtube stopped annotations :)
In the botlane matchup there is ~effective ranged attack~ versus ~it'self and sustain~
there is ~grab and delete~ versus ~grab denial and effective counter-engage~
If you ever find yourself missing tools for the entire first line, don't attempt to compete, if you have no effective range or sustain, don't play the ranged-poke and sustain game, just wait.
If you ever find yourself missing tools for the entire second line, don't attempt to compete, if you have no effective counter-engage power in this match up then don't allow grab champs to hit. Just move away when dangerous just like everyone has learned to do against blitz.
Botlane is all about ranged attacks back and forth, things with more range or more sustain have more power if they manage to hit.
The only exception to this is champions that grab your squishy booty, With a _Long Range_ engage tool!
That's it, have fun out there. :D
So in botlane MAtchups table we have Leona placed in weird place, is she disrupt or all in after all ? I guess both ;p
EDIT: Oh, I have now downloaded image where it is corrected :P Error is just in video.
Where would Zilean and Tahm Kench fit into the sustain, poke, all-in, disrupt category?
Zilean would probably be poke, but what about Tahm?
+Anthony Davila tahm is disruption zilean poke
What about Poppy Support? All-In right?
poppy can be disrupt or allin
Rakan?
mostly all in, although q can be used to poke
Yo, I like the updated vids!
Can you please tell me the music that you used for this video...thank you.
Will you ever do detailed champion guides? Great videos by the way
I've done 3. Ahri, GP and Fizz
Oh cheers i will go check them out
so why do you only have 5 ap on your sona? do you have some 20 armor on that rune page or something?
What do you consider Zilean support to be? Poke?
Amazing content! Congratulations =D
overlapping support and marksman ability ranges creates a lot of pressure which gets countered by area of effect damage.
+Seth yes, theoretically, but both adc and support will not enter trading stance together if they will lose the trade. (assuming equal match).
They will have factored in Zyra using q to hit both of them and that they can out trade it.
Also they can still both be in range on the arc without standing on top of each other.
does zyra wins into a sona almost every time. auto, q and a plant *(thunderlords too) take her to either 1/2 hp or 1/2 mana and she cant trade at all after? i play zyra with a 65% win ratio and i always feel a sona is a free win. poke the adc lvl 1-3, then try and burst her at lvl 3
+Un7ucky it's a skill match-up and then sona is more useful mid game.
It's also just a general guide. Sona hammers everyone in that list except Zyra, except I wouldn't leave out Zyra, because soraka is strong against Zyra poke.
Maybe I could've used arrows or something but it would've been pretty messy.
Shouldn't Zyra be considered as both an all-in and poke champion though? She has the traits of both with her Q and plant poke, abusing and establishing zones of control, while still having the bush ambush and minion-piercing CC.
how does disruption do against sustain?
i tend to be about 50/50 with matchups like my Sona vs Morganna/Braum or Taric
+Som Dood sounds about right. You have lane pressure, they have gank pressure.
Miss some AP champs support. Annie, Lux, Brand, Fiddle, Velkoz.
Omg this was perfect Tysm for the vid
You said All In > Poke but in your explication you said Hook/Disrupt get poked out and can't engage with Leona as an example. Why isn't the same with Thresh? If you poke thresh, he can't all-In at all. How All-In > Poke?
I'm not 100% certain, but it might be that Thresh can choose to not engage on his Q. He can hold a target stationary for a few moments and then back off. Blitz, Naut, and Leona all have to stick their faces in, but Thresh chooses. That's just my guess.
+Charles Vigneault Thresh can control brush cause he's ranged. He can also push the lane early so they don't get poked out. See episode 3 to see why pushing the lane prevents you getting poked. (if Melee tries to push the lane they'll take a lot more harass than thresh will)
Is the chart still correct? If not is there an updated one?
all these champions stay in the same category so yes the chart is still correct in my oppinion, a few messages ago they say Tahm kench is disrupt, and Zilean is poke. :) i hope this helped.
can u make a Bard commentary?
Need to show this to my support...
LOL THAT LEFT NUT BET
3:30 my new desktop for the next 10 years :'|
Okay i have 1 queston that really bugs me- what's the point of playing adc champs that dont scale well like lucian or cait? Here's what i think- if u dont stomp the lane like 5/0 vs someone like vayne then in mid-late game u are a thrash with little usefulness. However if u play a hypercarry vs bully you always have 2nd chance to come back just bc of your scalling. And if i'm a hypercarry and i get 1st blood then my bully is soo screwed for the rest of the game. Its kinds unfair that vayne or kog stomps everything after 25-30 min even when they had 0/6 in 10 min... That is a big problem to me because i'm in low elo (silver) and my team cant close the games fast when we are vs someone like nass or hypercarry...
That's kind of the beauty of team comp. yes it does seem like they have a second chance but your talking about vayne and kogmaw who struggle early game. if you are 5/0 and completely stomp your lane partner it's up to you to roam at the correct times and help feed the rest of your team so you can close out that mid game. I used to ask myself the same question after every loss but after watching a lot of videos from higher level players I've realized I can't say my team didn't do x. if that's your complaint then you need to take a step back and look at your contribution mid and late game. where you at the correct place when a team fight broke out. did you encourage them to take that inhibited at the right time. a lot of winning Low elo games seems like you have to spell out what the right play is and communicate. not to say your aren't going to have trolls and feeders but if you focus on that you aren't focusing on your mistakes and miss plays.
Not your left nut! NOO!!!
wtf janna is a poke? isnt she more of a disrupt?
She's both, as well as some pretty damn good peel
nice, tnx
bro that match up chart changed how i play
13:32 I'll double up
It’s a 10 percent difference
i was playing blitzs in anromal game and ia was facing against an alistar my biggest mistake was pulling in alistar.....
he gotta a 5 man know up i guess u can say i got a 5 man knock up
please dont start putting music in the background of videos, it makes it very hard to concentrate on what you are saying
Had literally zero issue with the music. Made it easier to listen to in my opinion. Keep it in.
for people who English isn't their first language, it makes it much harder to understand what he is saying
Nerosemo
Oh well then.
3rd rip
damn it 2nd
"There are other Supports and people sometimes like to play those", - Yeah sure... Pls remove Janna from game.
So poke beats nothing? :thinking: