What Ami1649 is discussing here from the book about the 6 years old girl being in a cellar not knowing what she did to deserve the life she had and the recent discovery of unmarked graves of over a thousand children in Catholic schools in Canada.
I literally felt sick to a point where i thought someone was sitting in the corner of my room far from me yet breathing heavily behind my ear. I came to a point of almost sleep paralysis like state and afterwards felt very dizzy.
The themes of fatherhood are so complex and interesting. Ivan and Alyosha are philosophical rivals, and that rivalry shows in the teaching by example they do: Alyosha tries to prepare the future generation through the kids at the end of the book, while Ivan's teachings led to murder. Also, its very interesting how Ivan talks about loving children, yet Alyosha is the only one who seems to be around them.
I always really liked how Ivan cut the Bullshit when they were sitting together and said that they both knew what they really wanted to talk about: "The Eternal Questions"
that really felt like the author talking to the audience like, ‘’thru these characters and the world i created, let’s get down to what the intent really is with them’’
I like that though Dostoyevsky ADORES Alyosha, he still allows him to love Ivan. And Ivan.. Ivan is a split personality. Hes torn in 2. Figure Rodya in Crime and Punishment
In describing Ivan, the author says he wrote newspaper articles on theology and Christians and Atheists alike believed his words supported their views. Dostoevsky does the same with this novel. Be wary in implying he has definitively supported your viewpoint. I’d argue that Ivan’s ways led to perdition and Alyosha was the only consistent beacon of light throughout the book. Alyosha answered all of his questions, not with words but how he lived. Ivan had all the words but his life amounted to an odorous vapor.
I had Alyosha’s outlook when I was younger. Then at 18 I became a first responder. It was only for a year, but I had 3 bad cases, one involving an infant. Now at 28, I have more of Ivan’s outlook. I don’t know what to believe as far as a higher power goes, but if there is one, I would have some hard questions about those events. This chapter made me feel understood in a way.
do you believe in free will? because suffering becomes pretty obvious if you do now the unobvious, and unanswerable, is why suffering is a conduit to existence and/or God. The best answer one can give is that our only hope is that those who suffer find eternal peace in the afterlife
@@brigs369 I do believe in free will. But I also wonder why innocent people can be harmed as a result by no fault of their own. I agree that suffering generally is a conduit to existence. And suffering usually yields growth, fortitude, and understanding. But I am strongly suspicious of classifying the type of suffering endured by a victim as the same as self inflicted suffering, such as abstinence or something similar. Basically, if you deny yourself indulgence now and choose suffering, that is most often good. However, if suffering is cast upon you by another, I cannot see that as good. Suffering is tiered.
In Ortodox Christianity self inspection and repentance of sin is the key to the door we knock on for Jesus .The Truth. By Acknowledging our own wrong we start to feel love and compassion for others who do wrong while blind and ignorant as we are, but also to recognize Lie that is trying to manipulate us. In repentance, Holly Spirit presence manifest, starts to teach us....to be wise as serpent and harmless as dove.
Remember that the first read of the book is just an introduction to the characters. You'll soon want and need a re-read! I sobbed like a baby when I finished.
I know it’s not this black and white, but what I got from this chapter and the grand inquisitor is that Ivan believes in God, but can’t accept him because of the horrors he allows to happen on earth?
I think Ivan is saying he rejects God by acknowledging that he understands nothing and feels it’s ludicrous to suggest some divine power that makes sense of all the chaos that’s going to bring it all into ultimate harmony.
Ivan argues that the problem with Christianity-and religion more broadly-is its reliance on a distant Judgment Day, when all wrongs will be righted, and justice will prevail. Christians serve indefinitely, waiting for God’s ultimate judgment. Ivan compares this to the Euclidean parallel postulate, which states that parallel lines never meet, even if extended infinitely. His point is that Christian justice assumes that somewhere in this infinite expanse, all accounts will be settled. As a result, immense injustices, like the suffering of innocent children, can go unpunished for an eternity. Ivan tells Alyosha that while he doesn’t entirely reject God, he refuses to accept a God who allows such suffering. Both Ivan and Alyosha have unconventional approaches to faith. Alyosha, a disciple of the mystic starets Zosima, represents a deeply personal and spiritual form of Christianity, rather than strict adherence to church dogma. Ivan, on the other hand, is in constant conflict with the idea of God and organized religion. He intellectually acknowledges the possibility of God but rejects the moral implications of a universe governed by divine justice. In the “Grand Inquisitor” sequence, Ivan critiques Christ’s teachings and suggests that His second coming would undermine the authority of the Roman Catholic Church. He implies that the Church, by offering immediate forgiveness and tangible guidance, operates more effectively than Christ, who demands too much faith and sacrifice. The Grand Inquisitor claims that Christ’s teachings abandon those who lack the strength to follow them, reducing their only sin to a lack of willpower. Through the three temptations of Christ, the Inquisitor challenges Christ’s moral authority: 1.Turning Stones into Bread: The Inquisitor argues that Christ’s refusal to perform this miracle ignored humanity’s basic needs. Providing bread would have secured loyalty through compassion and alleviated suffering. 2. Leaping from the Temple: By rejecting the chance to perform a grand miracle, Christ denied humanity the awe and certainty they crave, which could have ensured universal faith and obedience, creating a paradise on Earth. 3. Ruling the Kingdoms of the World: The Inquisitor contends that accepting power over earthly kingdoms would have allowed the Church to establish global peace and unity, ensuring salvation for all. In essence, the Inquisitor believes Christ placed freedom above human well-being, while the Church offers the miracles and authority that people need. Ivan’s narrative reflects his broader struggle with faith: he respects Christ’s ideals but finds them impractical for a world filled with suffering and injustice. A bit late, but hope this helps.
I like your analysis of that chapter, well done! There is more to the chapter, but this might be a great start for people trying to understand more about it
Yet Doestoevski was a very sincere Christian. He had the depth and honesty to present the strongest possible challenges to faith in Christ imaginable. It would have been interesting to hear more of the younger brother and his perspective.
I somewhat doubt the standardness of Dostoyevskys stated beliefs, to the point where I think he might have been more of atheist despite claiming otherwise. I think he considers himself at worst an Ivan who has gone mad from the truth and at best a zosima who acknowledges the truth but persists. I think he considers the talk of immortal souls and heaven to comfort grieving mothers to be an opposite side of the coin or the grand Inquisitor. Lies to control and supposedly help humanity. He seems to believe it's okay to comfort individuals but to mechanically control human society and lock up people like zosima/jesus is wrong. Zosima doesn't want to establish a church-state relationship either, and it's basically because he already understands the meaning of Ivan's poem without having heard it. He knows that the state mechanically loves "humanity" yet ignores individuals. Any great state, church or not, is somewhat like the girl in the wheelchair. She claims to love humanity but has no love for individuals. So I think Dostoevsky believes religion is pragmatically true for individuals but he doesn't believe it literally. He sees it as a form of madness that could either comfort your in your grieving or haunt you with apparitions of the devil. This is reinforced especially by his constant references to holy fools. He sees a falseness in some of them, but those qualities of taking on strange beliefs and behaviors in order to help others is essentially what he feels about religion. He considers the will to care for others and show love as a measure of the truth.
While short, the chapter “A Little Demon” hit me super hard. The imagery is similar to Rebellion in how it details horrible acts being done to children, yet Lise talks about it in a way completely different way. She’s depressed, numb, and revels in the idea of hurting herself or others as some kind of escape, smiling as she describes violent atrocities. And the way the chapter ends with her slamming the door on her finger, with it being described as black and oozing. Lise looks at what she did to herself, about to cry, thinking how even that wasn’t enough. It’s so short but it was such a poignant depiction of depression
I was so confused after reading the Little Demon chapter, but now i think i understand it's because I've never really suffered from depression. The previous chapter about Lise was so sweet and hopeful, and then she is completely lost. My wife, who has had depression, said it made sense to her. But it broke my heart, and never really gets resolved!
Историята на българина предадена чрез Иван е абсолютно вярна и аргумента за създаването на дявола от хората е логичната връзка. Което означава, че тази връзка поражда и необходимостта от Бог. Страхотно видео.
Found your channel through reddit and wow, brilliant video!!!! Excited to go through all of your channel. Ivan Karamazov is one of my all time favorite characters and I cherish every chapter he's in in Karamazov brothers greatly, he's so interesting.
Excellent video. I’m a Roman Catholic and when Jesus was born Herod had all the first born males slaughtered. I think they are the first martyrs of the Church. But they were also “old testament “ Jews now having their sons slain absurdly in search of Herod’s fear of a new king having been born. This is the story of mankind’s fallen nature. And it has brought blood lust into the world for as long as it lasts. God created angels before man with free will. Yes we want freedom no matter how far it degrades us. We have free will. The Holy Innocents that were slaughtered the night Jesus was born were immediately in glory. But still as believers we are commanded to give our lives to come to the aid of the suffering and that itself is not absurd.
When I saw the heading title of your video, I remembered that chapter in all its horror, and wholly agree with you. Even the axe murder scene in Crime and Punishment pales in comparison.
The only one that's harder to read in his work is the chapter in Demons that the publishers refused to leave in (but which explains the book's ending).
@@burntt999 It's at the end of the Pevear and Volokhonsky translation. Makes the ending of the book make a heck of a lot more sense, but it will make you feel angry and sick (seriously, thinking about it just now made me cry). I don't know exactly where Dostoevsky meant it to be in the book.
Reading The Rebel from Camus I'm at the chapter where he makes reference to Ivan Karamazov. It sill need to read The Brothers Karamazov and so your video helped give context to Camus' thoughts. Thanks !
It still baffles me that essentially the book states children are abused simply because the delectable defenselessness is too tantalizing to pass up. Or disgusts me, anyway. Excellent video.
I found the opposite tone reading this chapter. I didn’t get a sense of Ivan being sad and weary of the idea that everyone can be forgiven and that there being harmony but rather I felt this undercurrent of resentfulness from Ivan. To me it seemed more that Ivan was ridiculing this vision and wilfully torturing his brother with them while masquerading as a melancholic benevolent figure
I got the same impression too. I though Ivan was full of energy and angry even, while he was talking to Alyosha, who he knew had pretty much the opposite beliefs as him
I know this is a year old, but I just finished reading the chapter myself & I absolutely agree. I always envision these kinds of long monologues as if I were acting them out on stage to really feel the character or what I would think they feel & it was very frantic & desperate like a search for an answer he knows he’ll never receive & if he ever did, it wouldn’t suffice to calm him.
@@caseyharrington4947 can you name the chapter? My copy is from 1950 & it’s broken up differently. Are you referring to “The Preliminary Investigation”?
I would agree, but I would also say that Aloysha's religious practices don't fall under the banner of conventional orthodoxy. Alyosha's religious system is much more humanitarian than other models presented in the novel, such as Father Ferapont (with his complete isolation and vow of silence). Zosima and Aloysha transcend conventional orthodoxy. This is illustrated through Zosima's transformation into a religious figure, which is triggered by a very human sense of guilt at the thought of having hurt his batsman, or killing his lover's fiance. Furthermore, Zosima encourages Aloysha to leave the monastery, and presents a nuanced theological vision that emphasises the individual’s conscience as the foundation for achieving a sense of universal brotherhood and fraternity, rather than relying on the institutional authority of the Church.
I went out onto the street and asked random people “what is the most disturbing chapter in The Brothers Karamazov?” No one knew what I was talking about.
The rivalry, the battle is obvious through out the whole book. It’s clear, that those were fighting in Dostoevsky as well, but he finds the way out through the God, without a clear win for any side. The line in the beginning is also quite fascinating, where Fjodor Pavlovich talks to Alyosha, and he almost cries, calling Alyosha such a good boy. And then he adds : Fyodor was sentimental. Sentimental AND ANGRY. So even at this moment Devil is not leaving him. He is angry to himself, but Alyosha makes him fight the evil. It’s so many senses and sidelines in this book, that it really gives you no chance, then to agree to Jordan Peterson, that it’s probably the greatest book ever written.
I just finished reading this chapter. Preparing myself for The Grand Inquisitor. I admire how Ivan lets reality hit him. He does not turn his eyes away from it, no matter how painful it may be. I wonder if this has anything to do with some sort of self-laceration on his side.
I would say it's because he'd rather see the truth for what it is. He's a realist. From Dostoevsky's Notes From The Underground: "Which is better - cheap happiness or exalted sufferings?" Rather than cheap lies, Ivan is choosing exalted suffering - exalted because it is the truth. In the same conversation between Alyosha and Ivan, Ivan asks if he should stop and if he's making Alyosha suffer. Alyosha responds with something like: "Oh, I want to suffer." I believe Ivan sees how people turn a blind eye to those sufferings and chooses to look at them directly. This takes courage to do. I remember at the meeting with Father Zossima, Ivan was a passive listener, not intervening even when the priests discussed his articles (my memory might not be accurate here). This could be because he thought people were living a lie, especially that of Christianity, and hence refused to involve himself in their lies and stuck to his knowledge and lofty suffering. Alyosha, however, is able to take that burden of suffering and maintain his faith in humanity. I believe this is one of the reasons why Dostoevsky wrote him as the hero. In the words of Viktor Frankl: "For tears bore witness that a man had the greatest of courage, the courage to suffer." I believe this is the type of courage encompassesd by Dostoevsky and the Karamazov. Hurrah for Karamazov!
I read this book 25 yes ago and was deeply moved. I’ve just re read it and it’s still if not more disturbing. I don’t know how to place this passage and the others of equal emotional charge given what happened in the 20th century and even today in Ukraine. I feel the search for universal values is a dead end pursuit. Perhaps we need a definition of human nature and of an “ideal” man to help us fix an anchor in this world where “god is dead”. I’d be interested to know your thoughts. ??
I’m reading the McDuff translation, and it’s called “Mutiny” instead of Rebellion. Don’t know if it’s a better translation or not but it’s interesting!
Obviously the “Rebellion” chapter is emotionally disturbing to the vlogger, as to almost all who read it, including myself. One of the most disturbing for me was Katerina Ivanovna’s revelation during Dimitri’s hearing about her mental and psychological sufferings.
Most random people in the street would have probably never even read the book. Sadly, I have only ever met one person who has that I know of. It’s a shame because it’s one of the greatest books in world literature. As for Ivan, he was the world’s first poe! 😂 He tried to act as if he didn’t believe in a God, but he did really. That’s why he told Alyosha that he ‘returns the ticket’ (rejects the offer of salvation.) He had a view of God, sitting on a cloud, not intervening to help when his people suffered. Edit: some of the story about the Turks was later rehashed to be the Germans in World War One, such as the bayoneting of babies. The Germans never did that in the First World War, even though under Hitler unspeakable atrocities were committed.
Ivan has lost faith. A part of him, deep down, wants Alyosha to help him restore his faith. Not even his high intelligence can give him the answers to these questions about life and God, thus giving him peace.
Looks like this book blew your mind, Einstein loved Dostoyevsky, and many great novelist admired his work. Read MuMu by Dostoyevsky, short book and great read. Bulgakov is another spectacular writer, Master and Margarita is a masterpiece I think.
Thank you so much for this review. I just finished the book and so many ideas and emotions were clashing in my head but your "review' of this chapter was so educational in my attempt to understand Ivan's character and his ideas about God. Question: Why did Smerdyakov commit suicide, and Ivan feel guilt for his perceived role in his father's murder, if they both didn't believe in God and "everything is permitted"?
The Grand Inquisitor is the most disturbing chapter so far to me. A poem that not so called poem because it is tremendously long. Ivan such a weirdo. I agree his belief that he trusts the god existence but he don't trust the teachings that forgive every people who have sinned on you as in the chapter Rebellion. He has a point on this statement. He uses kids as his motive explaining his belief that gives me grief and sympathy for those kids. Dostoevsky has ability to hide himself in the character as representative. The author was the mind, the characters is the speaker of the mind.
Every monk knows that all mankind deserves death but that's why Jesus is so crucial. That evil that alyoshas brother describes is within the heart of every single man. If it were not for Christ we would all be worthy of death.
The notion that certain persons of great spiritual strength could attain a worthy position with God, whereas the common person cannot, is based on the notion that our works save us. I read that God is no respector of persons and that all our righteousness is as filthy rags. The so-called "good news" is that all persons have equal access to God through the substitutionary death of the Christ and his resurrection. I am really enjoying my first reading of this great novel and just read this chapter.
sorry but I can't stop thinking ab the 1st statement you made 'if you were to go out in the street and ask any person...' I'm either deeply confused ab the ordinary person one may come across day to day OR I live in an extemly sheltered and obtuse environment because....
Ivan really felt like a contradiction at times due to his intelligence that as rakitins explanation of the karamazov nature being at 2 extremes at all times felt very true here with ivan he spoke of being a socialist and for the downtrodden for those suffering etc. yet ignored his fathers silent cry for redemption constantly judging him he looked down on smerdyakov and i believe even feared him for having an intelligence comparable to ivans yet he was servant a valet and even when he first met the drunk man in the snow he behaved in a way at first that was very antagonistic. I believe ivan is someone who is very similar to the underground man he is someone who is self conscious to a fault and overthinks every little possible thing while he is capable of great good which he shows throughout the book his nature often causes him to resent those moments like his conversation and growing closer with alyosha becoming a moment of inner turmoil for ivan and his feverish search for clues that prove dmitri didnt kill fyodr all while he resents him and thinks of him as a monster
@@ami1649 Nikolai Alexandrovich Berdyaev was a Russian political and Christian religious philosopher who emphasized the existential spiritual significance of human freedom and the human person.
@@ami1649 He wrote a book/collection of essays on Dostoevsky that I highly recommend. In this early 20th century work, he was one of the first thinkers to seriously compare and contrast Dostoevsky and Nietzsche.
I honestly found ivans arguments to be very superficial. Everyone always talks about him like hes such a genius so i expected more when i read the book but it wasnt very impressive to me
Also from the Christian Perspective even Children Are Not Innocent. Grace comes through Christ Alone. It is a free gift, not one that Is earned, and not one that is lost.
Unless a person is reading off cue cards or has memorized in advance what he‘ll say, gazing at the camera 100% is impossible. I much appreciate and prefer this speaker‘s more natural approach.
Yes, this was a brilliant conversation. I thought the chapter where Ivan is visited by the "Devil" was quite disturbing, too.
What Ami1649 is discussing here from the book about the 6 years old girl being in a cellar not knowing what she did to deserve the life she had and the recent discovery of unmarked graves of over a thousand children in Catholic schools in Canada.
I just read that chapter. I thought it was brilliant!!
agree! and the actor in the movie is intellectually lively
I literally felt sick to a point where i thought someone was sitting in the corner of my room far from me yet breathing heavily behind my ear. I came to a point of almost sleep paralysis like state and afterwards felt very dizzy.
For me it was the interaction between Smerdyakov and Ivan toward the end of the book. There's an expression of Smerdyakov's soul that disturbed me
The themes of fatherhood are so complex and interesting. Ivan and Alyosha are philosophical rivals, and that rivalry shows in the teaching by example they do: Alyosha tries to prepare the future generation through the kids at the end of the book, while Ivan's teachings led to murder. Also, its very interesting how Ivan talks about loving children, yet Alyosha is the only one who seems to be around them.
If you were to ask randoms in the street nobody would know what yourre talking about.
It's an unfortunate truth
Ahahah truth I have just gotten past this chapter but really wanted another's views on this just about to start the poem
@@tww1671 nothing unfortunate about it. Just different interests.
@@robertimmanuel577 Good point. I agree :)
I read the book twice (not for college but enjoyment) so I knew right away what you were referring to in the title.
I always really liked how Ivan cut the Bullshit when they were sitting together and said that they both knew what they really wanted to talk about: "The Eternal Questions"
that really felt like the author talking to the audience like, ‘’thru these characters and the world i created, let’s get down to what the intent really is with them’’
I like that though Dostoyevsky ADORES Alyosha, he still allows him to love Ivan. And Ivan.. Ivan is a split personality. Hes torn in 2. Figure Rodya in Crime and Punishment
In describing Ivan, the author says he wrote newspaper articles on theology and Christians and Atheists alike believed his words supported their views. Dostoevsky does the same with this novel. Be wary in implying he has definitively supported your viewpoint. I’d argue that Ivan’s ways led to perdition and Alyosha was the only consistent beacon of light throughout the book. Alyosha answered all of his questions, not with words but how he lived. Ivan had all the words but his life amounted to an odorous vapor.
Dostoyevsky is very obviously pro-orthodox church, like ffs please, it's written all over his books.
“Too high a price is asked for harmony.”
I had Alyosha’s outlook when I was younger. Then at 18 I became a first responder. It was only for a year, but I had 3 bad cases, one involving an infant. Now at 28, I have more of Ivan’s outlook. I don’t know what to believe as far as a higher power goes, but if there is one, I would have some hard questions about those events. This chapter made me feel understood in a way.
do you believe in free will? because suffering becomes pretty obvious if you do
now the unobvious, and unanswerable, is why suffering is a conduit to existence and/or God. The best answer one can give is that our only hope is that those who suffer find eternal peace in the afterlife
@brigs369 they find greater peace than most of us! Eternally!
@@brigs369 I do believe in free will. But I also wonder why innocent people can be harmed as a result by no fault of their own. I agree that suffering generally is a conduit to existence. And suffering usually yields growth, fortitude, and understanding. But I am strongly suspicious of classifying the type of suffering endured by a victim as the same as self inflicted suffering, such as abstinence or something similar.
Basically, if you deny yourself indulgence now and choose suffering, that is most often good. However, if suffering is cast upon you by another, I cannot see that as good. Suffering is tiered.
In Ortodox Christianity self inspection and repentance of sin is the key to the door we knock on for Jesus .The Truth. By Acknowledging our own wrong we start to feel love and compassion for others who do wrong while blind and ignorant as we are, but also to recognize Lie that is trying to manipulate us.
In repentance, Holly Spirit presence manifest, starts to teach us....to be wise as serpent and harmless as dove.
I'm almost done with the book. I will really miss it. I'll cherish the remaining 200 pages I haven't yet read.
Enjoy!
Remember that the first read of the book is just an introduction to the characters. You'll soon want and need a re-read!
I sobbed like a baby when I finished.
I know it’s not this black and white, but what I got from this chapter and the grand inquisitor is that Ivan believes in God, but can’t accept him because of the horrors he allows to happen on earth?
I think Ivan is saying he rejects God by acknowledging that he understands nothing and feels it’s ludicrous to suggest some divine power that makes sense of all the chaos that’s going to bring it all into ultimate harmony.
Ivan argues that the problem with Christianity-and religion more broadly-is its reliance on a distant Judgment Day, when all wrongs will be righted, and justice will prevail. Christians serve indefinitely, waiting for God’s ultimate judgment. Ivan compares this to the Euclidean parallel postulate, which states that parallel lines never meet, even if extended infinitely. His point is that Christian justice assumes that somewhere in this infinite expanse, all accounts will be settled. As a result, immense injustices, like the suffering of innocent children, can go unpunished for an eternity. Ivan tells Alyosha that while he doesn’t entirely reject God, he refuses to accept a God who allows such suffering.
Both Ivan and Alyosha have unconventional approaches to faith. Alyosha, a disciple of the mystic starets Zosima, represents a deeply personal and spiritual form of Christianity, rather than strict adherence to church dogma. Ivan, on the other hand, is in constant conflict with the idea of God and organized religion. He intellectually acknowledges the possibility of God but rejects the moral implications of a universe governed by divine justice.
In the “Grand Inquisitor” sequence, Ivan critiques Christ’s teachings and suggests that His second coming would undermine the authority of the Roman Catholic Church. He implies that the Church, by offering immediate forgiveness and tangible guidance, operates more effectively than Christ, who demands too much faith and sacrifice. The Grand Inquisitor claims that Christ’s teachings abandon those who lack the strength to follow them, reducing their only sin to a lack of willpower.
Through the three temptations of Christ, the Inquisitor challenges Christ’s moral authority:
1.Turning Stones into Bread: The Inquisitor argues that Christ’s refusal to perform this miracle ignored humanity’s basic needs. Providing bread would have secured loyalty through compassion and alleviated suffering.
2. Leaping from the Temple: By rejecting the chance to perform a grand miracle, Christ denied humanity the awe and certainty they crave, which could have ensured universal faith and obedience, creating a paradise on Earth.
3. Ruling the Kingdoms of the World: The Inquisitor contends that accepting power over earthly kingdoms would have allowed the Church to establish global peace and unity, ensuring salvation for all.
In essence, the Inquisitor believes Christ placed freedom above human well-being, while the Church offers the miracles and authority that people need. Ivan’s narrative reflects his broader struggle with faith: he respects Christ’s ideals but finds them impractical for a world filled with suffering and injustice.
A bit late, but hope this helps.
@@tomwesthead4345 wow this helps me understand more than any videos or other stuff I’ve read bout the grand inquisitor
@@ragnarwinther4984 No probs, bro. If you have any questions send me them and I’ll try my best.
just finished book today, this was a great way to start 're-reading' it, thanks for the brilliant overview !
Thanks!
Astonishing! Absolutely astonishing. Thank you so much for this.
I like your analysis of that chapter, well done! There is more to the chapter, but this might be a great start for people trying to understand more about it
Yet Doestoevski was a very sincere Christian. He had the depth and honesty to present the strongest possible challenges to faith in Christ imaginable. It would have been interesting to hear more of the younger brother and his perspective.
I somewhat doubt the standardness of Dostoyevskys stated beliefs, to the point where I think he might have been more of atheist despite claiming otherwise. I think he considers himself at worst an Ivan who has gone mad from the truth and at best a zosima who acknowledges the truth but persists. I think he considers the talk of immortal souls and heaven to comfort grieving mothers to be an opposite side of the coin or the grand Inquisitor. Lies to control and supposedly help humanity. He seems to believe it's okay to comfort individuals but to mechanically control human society and lock up people like zosima/jesus is wrong. Zosima doesn't want to establish a church-state relationship either, and it's basically because he already understands the meaning of Ivan's poem without having heard it. He knows that the state mechanically loves "humanity" yet ignores individuals. Any great state, church or not, is somewhat like the girl in the wheelchair. She claims to love humanity but has no love for individuals.
So I think Dostoevsky believes religion is pragmatically true for individuals but he doesn't believe it literally. He sees it as a form of madness that could either comfort your in your grieving or haunt you with apparitions of the devil.
This is reinforced especially by his constant references to holy fools. He sees a falseness in some of them, but those qualities of taking on strange beliefs and behaviors in order to help others is essentially what he feels about religion. He considers the will to care for others and show love as a measure of the truth.
While short, the chapter “A Little Demon” hit me super hard. The imagery is similar to Rebellion in how it details horrible acts being done to children, yet Lise talks about it in a way completely different way. She’s depressed, numb, and revels in the idea of hurting herself or others as some kind of escape, smiling as she describes violent atrocities. And the way the chapter ends with her slamming the door on her finger, with it being described as black and oozing. Lise looks at what she did to herself, about to cry, thinking how even that wasn’t enough. It’s so short but it was such a poignant depiction of depression
This part hurt. The loss of innocence really gets to me, and the worst part is that it makes sense.
I was so confused after reading the Little Demon chapter, but now i think i understand it's because I've never really suffered from depression. The previous chapter about Lise was so sweet and hopeful, and then she is completely lost. My wife, who has had depression, said it made sense to her. But it broke my heart, and never really gets resolved!
omg i wrote a poem about this section because it was so resounding to me when i first read this book
Most disturbing sentence of the book, absolutely "I don't know'. The virtuous and sincere monk is unable to deny an anti-Semitic blood libel
@@Foushee217 Not a full resolution but she sent flowers to the small boy's funeral at the end
Историята на българина предадена чрез Иван е абсолютно вярна и аргумента за създаването на дявола от хората е логичната връзка. Което означава, че тази връзка поражда и необходимостта от Бог. Страхотно видео.
Found your channel through reddit and wow, brilliant video!!!! Excited to go through all of your channel. Ivan Karamazov is one of my all time favorite characters and I cherish every chapter he's in in Karamazov brothers greatly, he's so interesting.
💯🙏
Excellent video. I’m a Roman Catholic and when Jesus was born Herod had all the first born males slaughtered. I think they are the first martyrs of the Church. But they were also “old testament “ Jews now having their sons slain absurdly in search of Herod’s fear of a new king having been born. This is the story of mankind’s fallen nature. And it has brought blood lust into the world for as long as it lasts. God created angels before man with free will. Yes we want freedom no matter how far it degrades us. We have free will. The Holy Innocents that were slaughtered the night Jesus was born were immediately in glory. But still as believers we are commanded to give our lives to come to the aid of the suffering and that itself is not absurd.
Nicely presented young man. You are a natural born teacher.
When I saw the heading title of your video, I remembered that chapter in all its horror, and wholly agree with you. Even the axe murder scene in Crime and Punishment pales in comparison.
The only one that's harder to read in his work is the chapter in Demons that the publishers refused to leave in (but which explains the book's ending).
@@sonyafirefly3879 oh damn im about to read demons next.. how’d you find out about missing chapters? And im assuming they are online somewhere?
@@burntt999 It's at the end of the Pevear and Volokhonsky translation. Makes the ending of the book make a heck of a lot more sense, but it will make you feel angry and sick (seriously, thinking about it just now made me cry). I don't know exactly where Dostoevsky meant it to be in the book.
Reading The Rebel from Camus I'm at the chapter where he makes reference to Ivan Karamazov. It sill need to read The Brothers Karamazov and so your video helped give context to Camus' thoughts. Thanks !
It still baffles me that essentially the book states children are abused simply because the delectable defenselessness is too tantalizing to pass up. Or disgusts me, anyway. Excellent video.
Zosima was not the part of monastery brethren. He is a hermit type of monk.
Great video! The Brothers Karamazov is one of my favorite books I have read. Rebellion is disturbing for sure.
This was an amazing passage from the book. I recently finished reading it! I agree with Ivan.
Probs why the next chapter grand inquisitor juxtaposes this one so poignantly
I found the opposite tone reading this chapter. I didn’t get a sense of Ivan being sad and weary of the idea that everyone can be forgiven and that there being harmony but rather I felt this undercurrent of resentfulness from Ivan. To me it seemed more that Ivan was ridiculing this vision and wilfully torturing his brother with them while masquerading as a melancholic benevolent figure
I got the same impression too. I though Ivan was full of energy and angry even, while he was talking to Alyosha, who he knew had pretty much the opposite beliefs as him
I know this is a year old, but I just finished reading the chapter myself & I absolutely agree. I always envision these kinds of long monologues as if I were acting them out on stage to really feel the character or what I would think they feel & it was very frantic & desperate like a search for an answer he knows he’ll never receive & if he ever did, it wouldn’t suffice to calm him.
@@misscanada18 Out of curiosity, when you get to it, please tell is what you think of chapter 9
@@caseyharrington4947 can you name the chapter? My copy is from 1950 & it’s broken up differently. Are you referring to “The Preliminary Investigation”?
@@misscanada18 "The Devil"
I would agree, but I would also say that Aloysha's religious practices don't fall under the banner of conventional orthodoxy. Alyosha's religious system is much more humanitarian than other models presented in the novel, such as Father Ferapont (with his complete isolation and vow of silence). Zosima and Aloysha transcend conventional orthodoxy. This is illustrated through Zosima's transformation into a religious figure, which is triggered by a very human sense of guilt at the thought of having hurt his batsman, or killing his lover's fiance. Furthermore, Zosima encourages Aloysha to leave the monastery, and presents a nuanced theological vision that emphasises the individual’s conscience as the foundation for achieving a sense of universal brotherhood and fraternity, rather than relying on the institutional authority of the Church.
In the middle of the Rebellion chapter right now, can't wait to be stopped on the street to be asked what the most disturbing chapter of Brothers is
I went out onto the street and asked random people “what is the most disturbing chapter in The Brothers Karamazov?”
No one knew what I was talking about.
I chuckled
You look like you are on the verge of crying: Great video by the way. I am currently on page 452
The rivalry, the battle is obvious through out the whole book. It’s clear, that those were fighting in Dostoevsky as well, but he finds the way out through the God, without a clear win for any side. The line in the beginning is also quite fascinating, where Fjodor Pavlovich talks to Alyosha, and he almost cries, calling Alyosha such a good boy. And then he adds : Fyodor was sentimental. Sentimental AND ANGRY. So even at this moment Devil is not leaving him. He is angry to himself, but Alyosha makes him fight the evil. It’s so many senses and sidelines in this book, that it really gives you no chance, then to agree to Jordan Peterson, that it’s probably the greatest book ever written.
This is great; thank you so much for sharing.
I just finished reading this chapter. Preparing myself for The Grand Inquisitor. I admire how Ivan lets reality hit him. He does not turn his eyes away from it, no matter how painful it may be.
I wonder if this has anything to do with some sort of self-laceration on his side.
I would say it's because he'd rather see the truth for what it is. He's a realist.
From Dostoevsky's Notes From The Underground: "Which is better - cheap happiness or exalted sufferings?"
Rather than cheap lies, Ivan is choosing exalted suffering - exalted because it is the truth.
In the same conversation between Alyosha and Ivan, Ivan asks if he should stop and if he's making Alyosha suffer. Alyosha responds with something like: "Oh, I want to suffer."
I believe Ivan sees how people turn a blind eye to those sufferings and chooses to look at them directly. This takes courage to do. I remember at the meeting with Father Zossima, Ivan was a passive listener, not intervening even when the priests discussed his articles (my memory might not be accurate here). This could be because he thought people were living a lie, especially that of Christianity, and hence refused to involve himself in their lies and stuck to his knowledge and lofty suffering.
Alyosha, however, is able to take that burden of suffering and maintain his faith in humanity. I believe this is one of the reasons why Dostoevsky wrote him as the hero.
In the words of Viktor Frankl: "For tears bore witness that a man had the greatest of courage, the courage to suffer."
I believe this is the type of courage encompassesd by Dostoevsky and the Karamazov. Hurrah for Karamazov!
@@NART211 "..'I'm a realist,' I'll say, 'not a materialist,' heh, heh!" -The Devil in Ivan's nightmare
@@dalejames486 It's always worthwhile speaking to a clever man.
I've recently finished this novel. Thanks for the video
'It isn't God I don't accept, Alyosha, it's just his ticket that I most respectfully return to him.'
Most badass line ever written!🙌
Very similar to the lines by Capaneus, one of the main characters in Dante’s Inferno.
Great video! Thank you for making it.
19:22 : the "sch" in "eschatological' is pronounced "sk" 😊
nice channel subbed
🙏🏻
It is really difficult to read it, I really do not know how I could move my eyes along the pages.
Brilliant analysis
Great content, thank you! I'm about to start reading the book
I love this video, I think you nailed it
I read this book 25 yes ago and was deeply moved. I’ve just re read it and it’s still if not more disturbing. I don’t know how to place this passage and the others of equal emotional charge given what happened in the 20th century and even today in Ukraine. I feel the search for universal values is a dead end pursuit. Perhaps we need a definition of human nature and of an “ideal” man to help us fix an anchor in this world where “god is dead”. I’d be interested to know your thoughts. ??
I’m reading the McDuff translation, and it’s called “Mutiny” instead of Rebellion. Don’t know if it’s a better translation or not but it’s interesting!
Obviously the “Rebellion” chapter is emotionally disturbing to the vlogger, as to almost all who read it, including myself.
One of the most disturbing for me was Katerina Ivanovna’s revelation during Dimitri’s hearing about her mental and psychological sufferings.
Nice! I'll have to revisit that section. Thanks!
Such a fatally good answer
Most random people in the street would have probably never even read the book. Sadly, I have only ever met one person who has that I know of. It’s a shame because it’s one of the greatest books in world literature.
As for Ivan, he was the world’s first poe! 😂
He tried to act as if he didn’t believe in a God, but he did really. That’s why he told Alyosha that he ‘returns the ticket’ (rejects the offer of salvation.) He had a view of God, sitting on a cloud, not intervening to help when his people suffered.
Edit: some of the story about the Turks was later rehashed to be the Germans in World War One, such as the bayoneting of babies. The Germans never did that in the First World War, even though under Hitler unspeakable atrocities were committed.
Yet the story of the Turks is factually true.
@@oleggorky906I doubt they did the bayonetting in WWII. But the Soviets certainly did it.
I've only just completed my first read. I would love to be a part of this conversation but I think I shoulf only do so when I re read it
Ivan has lost faith. A part of him, deep down, wants Alyosha to help him restore his faith. Not even his high intelligence can give him the answers to these questions about life and God, thus giving him peace.
Looks like this book blew your mind, Einstein loved Dostoyevsky, and many great novelist admired his work. Read MuMu by Dostoyevsky, short book and great read. Bulgakov is another spectacular writer, Master and Margarita is a masterpiece I think.
Read Einstein’s dreams by Alan Lightman!!! From what you’re saying, I’m sure you’d love it
Unless you already have, which I think is more probable
My friend also recommended the Master and Margarita! I’m definitely gonna read it now. thanks for that
Thank you so much for this review. I just finished the book and so many ideas and emotions were clashing in my head but your "review' of this chapter was so educational in my attempt to understand Ivan's character and his ideas about God. Question: Why did Smerdyakov commit suicide, and Ivan feel guilt for his perceived role in his father's murder, if they both didn't believe in God and "everything is permitted"?
The guilt they both felt is because God is real. S. was too weak to bear it. Ivan was stronger.
exactly @@CatholicWisdom
Ivan was never the kind of atheist, that don't believe in God. As he says it himself: "I just humbly return the ticket"
The father acts irrationally for the sake of it.
He enjoys it.
brilliant! thank you
I loved the chapter where Grushenka & Katerina meet for the first time!
Ivan was just applying what he was learning in law school 😅
The Grand Inquisitor is the most disturbing chapter so far to me. A poem that not so called poem because it is tremendously long. Ivan such a weirdo.
I agree his belief that he trusts the god existence but he don't trust the teachings that forgive every people who have sinned on you as in the chapter Rebellion. He has a point on this statement. He uses kids as his motive explaining his belief that gives me grief and sympathy for those kids.
Dostoevsky has ability to hide himself in the character as representative. The author was the mind, the characters is the speaker of the mind.
In my opinion the grand inquisitor abs rebellion are on the same level.
I am so glad this guy is good looking…I’d have a hard time paying attention. Thank you.
Alyosha is the one who actually follows the suffering servant. I believe you might be mistaken.
Every monk knows that all mankind deserves death but that's why Jesus is so crucial. That evil that alyoshas brother describes is within the heart of every single man. If it were not for Christ we would all be worthy of death.
The notion that certain persons of great spiritual strength could attain a worthy position with God, whereas the common person cannot, is based on the notion that our works save us. I read that God is no respector of persons and that all our righteousness is as filthy rags. The so-called "good news" is that all persons have equal access to God through the substitutionary death of the Christ and his resurrection. I am really enjoying my first reading of this great novel and just read this chapter.
Inhuman suffering
sorry but I can't stop thinking ab the 1st statement you made 'if you were to go out in the street and ask any person...'
I'm either deeply confused ab the ordinary person one may come across day to day OR I live in an extemly sheltered and obtuse environment because....
Great video!
Thank you!
Great review, cheers
Thanks for your thoughts on said chapter. Dostoevsky is the best.
Thank you!
The grand inquisitor chapter
Nice analysis
I tried it, 90% of them said what is Brother's Kramersoft?
I think the grand inquisitor and rebellion are just one chapter !!
How many brothers Karamazov were there?
Actually It's towards the end of first third of the text.
are there any spoilers in this video for anything past rebellion?
The Grand Inquisitor is my favorite
Ivan really felt like a contradiction at times due to his intelligence that as rakitins explanation of the karamazov nature being at 2 extremes at all times felt very true here with ivan he spoke of being a socialist and for the downtrodden for those suffering etc. yet ignored his fathers silent cry for redemption constantly judging him he looked down on smerdyakov and i believe even feared him for having an intelligence comparable to ivans yet he was servant a valet and even when he first met the drunk man in the snow he behaved in a way at first that was very antagonistic. I believe ivan is someone who is very similar to the underground man he is someone who is self conscious to a fault and overthinks every little possible thing while he is capable of great good which he shows throughout the book his nature often causes him to resent those moments like his conversation and growing closer with alyosha becoming a moment of inner turmoil for ivan and his feverish search for clues that prove dmitri didnt kill fyodr all while he resents him and thinks of him as a monster
What do you think of Nikolai Berdyaev?
I'm not familiar. Do you recommend him?
@@ami1649 Nikolai Alexandrovich Berdyaev was a Russian political and Christian religious philosopher who emphasized the existential spiritual significance of human freedom and the human person.
@@ami1649 I think Berdyaev's philosophy is close to Dostoyevsky's.
@@ami1649 He wrote a book/collection of essays on Dostoevsky that I highly recommend. In this early 20th century work, he was one of the first thinkers to seriously compare and contrast Dostoevsky and Nietzsche.
I honestly found ivans arguments to be very superficial. Everyone always talks about him like hes such a genius so i expected more when i read the book but it wasnt very impressive to me
The entire purpose of this video is to distract you from another chapter that is far more disturbing.
which translation is this?
Gold mines?
Rebellion is good!
Same
Also from the Christian Perspective even Children Are Not Innocent. Grace comes through Christ Alone. It is a free gift, not one that Is earned, and not one that is lost.
Ivan sounds like ee-von, not like I-vën. Why do English speakers englishify everything?
Maybe because they’re English……………………
While talk, please look at the camera.
Its anoying
I'll try my best!
@@ami1649 🌼🌼🌼👍🏼
it isnt annoying at all
It really isn’t
Unless a person is reading off cue cards or has memorized in advance what he‘ll say, gazing at the camera 100% is impossible. I much appreciate and prefer this speaker‘s more natural approach.