Moroni's Message: Book of Mormon vs Bible Contradiction
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- Опубликовано: 5 окт 2024
- What is grace? Mormons and Christians both believe in grace. But one verse from the Book of Mormon implies a significant difference between the grace of the New Testament, and grace in LDS theology.
Moroni 10:32 (from the Book of Mormon) says, "Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ..."
This verse teaches that grace is conditioned on us "denying yourselves of all ungodliness" and loving God. But I don't think that's accurate. In this video, I explore an apparent contradiction of definitions for grace between the Bible and the Book of Mormon. Not only is this subject important, but we're also told to test the prophets and apostles. If Joseph Smith (through the Book of Mormon) taught a different form of grace than the form of grace revealed in the New Testament, then he is shown to be a false prophet.
We are justified by his grace as a gift, NOT preconditioned on our works.
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#christianity #mormon #GodLovesMormons #BookofMormon #Bible #BibleStudy #apologetics #ldschurch #lds
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thank you for clarifying this.❤ I started reading the New Testament few months ago, I'm in the book of Galatians now. Perfect timing to watch this!
And i just wanted to add that it's overly repeated by Paul that grace is a gift of God.
I have come to learn that being righteous is a by-product of our faith in Christ. Our good works, our being perfected is a result of believing in Jesus as our Savior and following Him.
And every good thing (grace) comes from Christ; His is the credit. That's what I hope people would know.
It's not our own doing. The glory and praise should be to God and to Jesus who saved us and pours His grace to us.
I'm learning so much from your channel! Thank you.
Awesome call out brother!! Keep up the good work
I don't think this verse is stating that Grace is conditional upon works. The goal of this verse is to encourage us to be perfected in Christ. If I were to define being "perfect in Christ" I couldn't come up with a better definition than "denying yourself of all ungodliness and loving God with all your might mind and strength." If this verse is stating that we have to do something to receive Grace to become perfected in Christ, why would being perfect in Christ be the condition upon which that Grace is received so that we can become perfect in Christ? It doesn't make sense.
I believe it is better understood that if you are made perfect in Christ, meaning you have denied yourself of all ungodliness and love God with all your might mind and strength then you know that it is by Grace that you made it there. Because you know that it is by Grace (which is the power of God) you cannot deny the power of God. To say that you did it by yourself without Grace would be denying the power of God.
The "if" part of the conditional isn't "be perfect in Christ." The command PRIOR to the "if" clause is to be perfect in Christ. The "if" clause is - deny yourself all ungodliness and love God. THEN grace will be sufficient.
I have a hard time being convinced that such an "if...then" statement doesn't mean exactly what it says.
My claim is that “denying all ungodliness and loving God” = “being perfect in Christ.”
He is saying if you are perfect in Christ then you know His Grace is sufficient, you know it is by Grace that you are perfect in Christ.
Can one deny themselves of ungodliness or love God with all their might mind and strength without the Grace of Jesus? I don’t think so. He is telling us that if we see ourselves denying ungodliness and loving God then we know Jesus’ Grace is in us.
This interpretation is consistent with the rest of the verse because Moroni wants us to know the power of God so that we cannot deny it. How will we know the power of God? By seeing Jesus’ grace transform us into people who deny ungodliness and love God, we will see ourselves become perfect in Christ.
The Book of Mormon actually teaches clearly what you are stating:
"Even those who serve God with their whole souls are unprofitable servants" Mosiah 2:21
"“Since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself.” Alma 22:14
“There can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world.”
Alma 34:12, 2 Nephi 9:7, Alma 34:8-16)
"And so we “preach of Christ … that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.” (2 Nephi 25:26
"Yea, and as often as my people repent will I forgive them their trespasses against me." Mosiah 26:30
And the Bible also is clear on "working out our own salvation
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Philip 2:12
Above all, what stands above faith is charity, and Christ made clear that those who love him, will keep is commandment, above all, to love one another, for love standeth even above faith and hope.
@@seanwilson2798you and GLM are talking past each other here because you’re using different definitions for “Grace.” You and the LDS church define grace, as you said earlier, as “the power of God,” usually applied to the salvation of mankind. However, that’s different than the definition mainstream Christianity uses, which is the undeserved, unearned favor of God, being made righteous and saved despite merit. This is the definition Paul (and much of the BoM) uses when referring to grace.
Until you can use the same definition for this important word, you’ll just talk right past each other and in circles.
The point is YOU and I CANNOT do this at all. We fail daily weekly and completely. Only Jesus the 1 true God meets this requirement. We must put our faith in His work on the cross and nothing of ourselves. We will never be sufficient but Christ is more than enough!!
Isn't faith itself a work? Grace before or after works isn't a big deal. If you want to be with Jesus again, you'll do the WORK necessary to do this. How much work does it take to turn the other cheek?
How much work does it take to humble yourself? To cheerfully give something of yours away to someone that doesn't have it? To forgive an enemy and love them still? To not look with lust?
Yes... it takes work to receive grace. Does a worldly person like RuPaul have salvation from God's grace? He'll have to do the work necessary to clean himself through repentance and God's grace.
Faith is not a work, as scripture always contrasts faith with works. Faith is a receiving and resting upon Christ alone for justification.
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." - Romans 4:5
"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." - Romans 3:28
@AustinD1646 Besides scripture contrasting them, it intertwines them together. There isn't one without the other. See James 2.
I know a guy that lived for the Lord years ago, and was a Sunday School teacher. He is saved by the blood of Jesus, but has unfortunately fallen into Satan's worldly traps. He has women on the side besides his wife, and is now an alcoholic. Should he WORK to clean himself of his sin and repent while fighting his lustful urges? Or can he do whatever he wants, because he says he has faith in his salvation?
@seekingtruthinallthings3969 yeah, you would think they read their own Bible...
Mark 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
@seekingtruthinallthings3969 well as someone who was lds who converted to chrianity there is an answer. The first thing is accepting christ as your savior. Once you have accepted him your chandle lit with the holy spirt. Now that you are a follower of christ by it's very nature you should/need the desire to live a pure life has he has through his teachings. If someone has "accepted christ", but makes no efforts in being like him. It would be questionable if he ever knew him to begin with.
I understand the confusion with this, it was also one of my misunderstandings while I was lds. I thought it was stupid and dumb that you could just live a life of sin and say I accept christ and be saved. Then I understood what accepting christ really means and that we all live a life of sin.
Latter Day Saints don’t at all believe that salvation comes through the law of Moses but by grace through faith which must have works. James 2:20-26.
The Gospel is a conditional gift similar to an engagement ring 💍
It’s not a free (unconditional) gift
On the back end of salvation we are called to repent and love God
If God is not #1 in your life, you’re not #1 in His
Why is denying ourselves of all ungodliness WORKS? I actually think it is BECOMING. Becoming through Him, Christ Jesus. The whole Book of Mormon is explicit in this regard. Including that one chapter you’re reading. Keep reading with real intent and you’ll come to understand. But if you read with the spirit of fault finding, you’re gonna find that too.
You don't have to call it works if you don't want - my main point was that in the verse, grace is *conditional*. If we do something, then we receive grace.
both Hebrews and Moroni testify of being becoming perfect through Jesus Christ
Hebrews 13:20-21
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Moroni 10:33
And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.
Funny how he skipped over the “after all that you can do” THEN grace. Mormons are NOT Christian’s.
I made a different video specifically about that verse (2 Nephi 25:23) a few years ago, if you're at all curious - "ruclips.net/video/N2XropKvsUI/видео.htmlsi=mV6EzQP8ftxI-oHT"
@@GLM of course I am!
We aren't Mormons. That is a made up term to detract from our faith. We were never Mormons. We are followers of Christ. And, you, protestantism, and catholicism, don't get to decide whether we are Christian or not. We get to decide that. I do agree we are not protestant Christian or Catholic Christian. But we are Christian as Christ is the focus of our faith and worship.
@@anichols2760
Don’t forget, the term “Christian” was originally a derogatory term used by outsiders, similar to the term “Mormon”. When Paul defined his religious identity he said he was Pharisee, who believed in the resurrection.
@@Mikha335 I read that on Wikipedia which says Christian is mentioned only three times in the Bible and that those were meant to be derogatory but I only see one of those verses as possibly as derogatory. But we don't see the term as derogatory but as a definition of a follower of Christ. We embrace the term. The book of Mormon mentions the word Christian which is positive and seems to indicate follower and worshipper of Jesus Christ.
As a Latter Day Saint, I’d like to say a few words. You pointed out
Roman’s 11: 5-6, Roman’s 3, and Galatians 2:21. But what about
James 2:14-26? James clearly says faith without works is dead. So if faith is how we receive gods Grace, and faith without works is dead, then that means one of two things.
1. We can be saved by Grace through DEAD faith. Or….
2. Our works have something to do with Wether or not we receive gods Grace. Seeing as how our works are what give our faith LIFE and meaning. I think it’s pretty clear that Paul would agree with our understanding as well.
1 Corinthians 3: 8-15.
In other words, there is no contradiction to be found here.
Peter warns of people in the end times misunderstanding Paul’s writings, leading to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3: 15-16. I mean no offense. But I would advise you to put aside any preconceived notions you may have about the LDS church and earnestly reach out to the lord for truth. At least before posting a video like this one where you are falsely teaching against things that are eternal truths and supported by your own Bible.
By the way. The works that Paul is referring to are works of the law. As in THE LAW OF MOSES, which Christ fulfilled. Paul is teaching traditional Jews that Christ is the way. Not the law of Moses, which was only ever a placeholder for the messiah who was to come. When Christ came, he gave us a new law. The two great commandments, as well as the Sermon on the Mount, and after his death, Peter gave the commandment of baptism in Acts 2. Paul explains the reason for baptism in Roman’s 6. Baptism is how we enter through the narrow gate. And once we enter, we have to keep the commandments, and in the end we will be judged based on our ability to be obedient to the commandments. “Judged by our works” spiritual works. Not works of the law.
Whoa. I'm a Christian member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (my whole life since age 8) and I'm not perfect, sin, but constantly stay in a repentance process by trying to do good. I need Christ. I need his grace. I've never heard of grace being taught as conditional but I can see how some might think that way. His grace freely given is how I am able to do any good. Without grace none are good because we are all imperfect sinners including the white-knuckling members of my faith who misunderstand and think they can live perfect (they can't and they need Christ). And the members you mentioned who said we only get grace if we strictly adhere to the commandments just don't understand grace. Christ offers it freely. We need it. And we don't earn it. And it's not conditional. And we don't earn salvation. Christ saves us wholely and completely and offers grace freely. And our works don't earn anything but are efforts that allow us to develop by the power of his grace into becoming (over time) more like the Saviors godly characteristics (ie obedient, full of charity/love, etc). The verses at the end of Moroni 10 are a process explaining how Christ will perfect us over time (eons of time into the next life but beginning in this life). Vs 32 first invites us to come to Christ. Only by first coming to him can he work on us and in us by helping change the nature of our hearts from evil to good. When Moroni tells us to deny ourselves of ungodliness he is asking us to try. Obviously we all fail at that no matter how hard we try. Moroni is saying (and offers a message of hope) that if we come to Christ, try to deny ourselves of ungodliness, love God the best we can then we will recognize that Christs grace is totally sufficient to take us miserable sinners and perfect us but only in and through him. We don't do this ourselves, especially by ourselves. We try and we see our weakness and inability and then Christ shows us WHAM how incredibly powerful he is to make changes in us despite our feeble attempts. The whole point of the verse is to point out to us how much we need the Savior and to crush pride and demonstrate to us that he is key to any change in us. We have nothing to boast of ourselves. If we do any good at all, and we develop into godly people it is because of Christ and his grace and not because we somehow can boast that our efforts did that. No. Christ made us better. Christ shined his grace in us because we came to him.
Hey - thanks for your thoughts!
Two questions -
1 - Have you ever read Spencer Kimball's "The Miracle of Forgiveness"? Are you familiar much with it? It seems that, at least in the past, LDS leaders has taught that a certain degree of worthiness was necessary. Curious your thoughts on that!
2 - I recognize that not everyone agrees with that book, and there seem to be a variety of Latter-day Saint opinions on the topic. So then, a leading question - do you think that there are some necessary works or ordinances that we have to do in order to be worthy enough to enter God's Kingdom?
@@GLM Spencer Kimball wrote that book before he was prophet and agreed later that his thoughts changed as he continued to learn about the Savior. That book is not doctrine and you will find other prophets and apostles that don't agree on some of the opinions presented, especially as it relates to works. And the book is not recommended reading because of it's flawed opinions but some members hold to it despite misconceptions on doctrine because it encourages high standards of living. Spencer meant well and was a mighty prophet in his love for Christ. I do believe that God decides what makes one worthy to be in his presence. I don't get to decide that but I'm aware that he said no unclean thing shall dwell in his presence. We can't be cleaned of our own efforts as that cleansing comes through the grace of God which is offered to those who come unto him. It is conditional, offered by the Savior as we meet or try to meet his conditions. What we do to meet those conditions (repentance process) does not cleanse or save us. He sets the conditions then freely cleanses and saves at his will and not ours. Now, as far as ordinances and covenants, they serve a purpose of helping us commit ourselves to God. We believe God revealed those covenants and ordinances for a purpose of helping us learn about him, his nature, and prepare us to enter his presence as he fashions us into becoming more like him as we are born of God. None of this seems to do with worthiness and more to do with learning to obey, and learn about him, and learn to become like him. The ordinances might be considered saving ordinances because we were asked to do them on condition of Christ offering a salvation that involves making us like him so we can enter Gods actual physical presence. We do believe that most everyone will be saved but according to the level of obedience they wish to have toward God. This is an act of mercy. He loves all his children. But he won't force them into his presence or into feeling uncomfortable in an environment to holy for our liking. If people love sin, and reject repentance, Christ, and baptism they will inherit a kingdom fitted for them where the level of God's presence is to experience the gift of the holy ghost. If people love Christ and are just and good people but reject baptism and other temple ordinances into his church then they will be blessed with the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ but not God the father. Christ will minister to them. Those who wish to embrace Christ, baptism by authority into his church, and make covenants and ordinances of eternal marriage in the temple will enjoy the full presence of God the eternal father and the presence of the son Jesus Christ. I completely understand how this may sound to my protestant Christian and Catholic brethren. It's new. It's a new paradigm. It's new doctrine outside sola Scriptura revealed as part of the ongoing restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ. In fact, our church does not belief in mans doctrine of sola Scriptura. We respect it. Most of our membership came out of Catholicism and protestant Christianity. But we have turned to a way of thinking that we believe more signs with what Christ taught when he was on the earth and to what he revealed at different times since the inception of earths history. And we believe he will yet reveal many truths pertaining to the kingdom of God.
@@anichols2760Kimball said he thought he may have been too harsh. He didn’t say what he wrote wasn’t true. Of course the book isn’t doctrine; it’s a book EXPLAINING doctrine. But is the book then false? Is it a book of false teachings?
Edit: Kimball being “only an apostle,” as some say, also doesn’t mean anything. What was Paul when he wrote Corinthians? It doesn’t matter that Kimball had not yet been appointed to the office of prophet. His book was recommended for years and referred to as a “masterful work.”
@@Liberator54321I'm not sure I'm catching your point. What point are you trying make?
Peter, the chief apostle in the New testament didn't see things right as well as he held racist beliefs until the Lord helped him see that it was ok to take the gospel to the gentiles. There are various examples in the Bible where a prophet was not seeing things quite right and needed correction. This happens because they are first and foremost fallible men. God chooses fallible men to be prophets. What makes them prophets or apostles is that God chose them.
There is a difference between works and actions
We need the work of knowing God Jeremiah 9:24
Phil 3:8
@@KnuttyEntertainment exactly, which makes them wrong
If that’s the definition of works we are saved by works
@@KnuttyEntertainment unless monergism is true lol
@@KnuttyEntertainment wow! I actually think it’s the other way around
It’s antinomian in theory and self contradicting in practice
This GLM teacher does not understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ wherein we are saved by grace through faith. Ephesians 2:8. Grace and works are not mutually exclusive as this teacher declares when those works are an act of faith as in Moroni 10 and James 2:20-26. Grace must be combined with faith to obtain salvation and grace must have faith and faith must have works. Wow that sounds fairly conditional. Read your scriptures to learn the gospel of Jesus Christ and not to bash The Book of Mormon which is actually remarkably compatible with the Bible and doesn’t contradict it at all.
If you do not repent, in the name of Christ, you will suffer for your own sin. So what then is repentance?
In the end of the day Christians believe in Christ and if the Gospel of Christ is true will, they all, in one way or another, be saved by it/Him.
I can never understand why it so important to some Christian to tear down other Christian’s or disprove each other.
Is that really the best use of the limited time you have on earth, to stir contention?
Proverbs 18:6
One must share the truth through the word of God.
Mormons aren’t Christian’s. So there is no tearing down here
Mormons are not Christians
Scholarship shows Romans referencing works is a reference to works of the Law of Moses, not actual works.
They why does Paul appeal to Abraham who was before the Law of Moses?
@@robertalan2023 which citation are you referring to?
@@devinhildebrandt2709 Roman’s 4
@@devinhildebrandt2709 Romans 4
@@devinhildebrandt2709 Romans 4
Christians also believe in in conditional grace. IF you believe in God, THEN you will receive Grace. You see how flimsy this argument is here? 😊
Bible based religion, known as traditional Christianity is comprised of tens of thousands of differing denominations, established by tens of thousands of different men according to their own varied interpretations of the Bible. Thus it is tens of thousands of different Christs and gospels. The bible teaches one Christ and one gospel. Christianity then is wormwood. And the bible, rather than being a validation of Christianity, stands in silent testimony against it. Oddly, they hold up the Bible which is genuine, to validate their fakery. It's a classic bait and switch technique.
On the other hand, the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS was founded by God thru one man, Joseph Smith. It teaches one Christ and one gospel, buttressed not only by the Bible, but by the Book of Mormon as well. If you want a sure witness, and believe that God lives and answers prayers, then ask him in sincerity if the Church of Jesus Christ LDS is his Church. Then wait upon the visitation of his spirit for a confirmation. You can know the truth from Gods spirit, or you can remain in the dark. If you go to the Bible, you will only find what you want to see, which is your own interpretation, and why traditional Christianity is already wormwood. Don't repeat that mistake. Instead, wait for God to answer you. Like Jesus told Peter, "for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And upon this rock I will build my Church." Everything short of this is flesh and blood...even my words. Know for yourself the truth, and don't rely on man or even your own judgment in matters of the eternal welfare of your soul.
The grace of Jesus Christ is received by exercising faith in Jesus Christ and James 2 teaches this concept well and Moroni 10 describes this concept in perfect harmony with James 2 not at all in contradiction to the Bible. This GLM teacher is teaching a gospel that is not in harmony with the Bible but teaching that the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible, which it doesn’t at all. Beware this false teacher from GLM.
It’s similar to John 15:14
Ye are my friends IF ye do as I command
I think that the way you understand "grace" also is conditional, and here is why.
I know a few Evangelicals that had been evangelicals for many decades, with all their heart, having experienced all the signs and wonders of being saved, and yet, after many years, they either became atheists or even LDS... Now, either we can asume that this person will remain "saved", even if he were to become a Mormon, then we could say that God's grace most likely is "unconditional, (well, still depending on faith and all of what faith includes, right?) but that would mean, even Mormons would end up in heaven. Or you say:"well that cant be, that person has never been truly saved in the first place", which then would mean though that Gods grace is bound on certain conditions, and that even though someone experienced all the signs and wonders of having been saved, would absolutley be no guarantee of remaining in the "being saved" state.
Now the commonly used scritpure against LDS is "that we are saved after all we can do", and when we look into the literatur of the 18th and 19th century, you will not find a single occurrence where the sense was clearly subsequent to "all we can do" rather than despite "all we can do", and interestingly enough, this construction was frequently used precisely in discussions about Grace reflecting the idea that we get from Luke and that we also find in the Book of Mormon, that we are unprofitable servants, even if we do everything that we are told to do.
So the reading "despite all we can do" is consistent with the book of Mormon's conceptual idea of grace and the works-based reading,. The notion that Grace only kicks in after we have exhausted all of our efforts is, kind of a Latter-day Saint renegotiation of what the Book of Mormon originally meant to say..
To understand how the Book of Mormon teaches it, you also have to look in other places, for there we read that man cannot earn his own salvation:
“Since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself.” (Alma 22:14.) “There can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world.” (Alma 34:12; see also 2 Ne. 9:7; Alma 34:8-16.) “Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; … he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law.” (2 Ne. 2:6-7.) And so we “preach of Christ … that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.” (2 Ne. 25:26.)
The way LDS look at grace is like this:
"Christs arrangement with us is similar to a mom providing music lessons for her child. Mom pays the piano teacher and because mom pays the debt in full she can turn to her child and ask for somerthing. What is it? Practice. Does the childs practice pay the piano teacher? No. Does the childs practice repay mom for payin the piano teacher? No. Practicing is how the child shows appreciation for moms incredible gift. Its how he takes advantage of the amazing opportunity mom has given her child to live it's life at a higher level. Moms joy is not found in getting repaid but in seeing her gift being used, seeing her child improve so she continues to call for practie, practice, practice.. "
So to point our clearly what LDS do believe:
1. LDS do not beliece that we can save ourselves through works
2. LDS do believe that only Christ can save us by his Grace
3. LDS do believe that Christ alone satisfies the demands of justice.
4. But what LDS also do believe is, that this does not absolve us from satisfying the demands of Christ
And there is no doubt about it, there is a difference between your view on it, and the LDS view on it, but that only means that the real question ahead is whether there can be such a thing as modern day revelation, or whether the Bible is sufficient, and that is where the main difference is, and with that, also where the discussion should be, because from an evangelical standpoint, Mormons will never ve Evangelicals (though you prefer to say Christian).. and from a LDS view Evangelicals will never be LDS, but I hold it possible that both are Christian, why?
Because when Jesus shared the Parable of the "Good Samaritian", he chose to consider a person "being good" even though he did not have faith in Christ, and even though he erred in doctrine, but still did so, because he brought forth the good fruits of a Christin, which is the fruit of Charity and mercy, which stands even above faith, hope, the working of miracles, and getting all doctrine right..
In that sense, the idea or notion that people will end up in hell for seemingly believing in a false doctrine, whilst still bringing forth the greatest of all good fruits, seems weak to me. Christ proved over and over again that he surprised those that were certain to be right on all issues, on whom he himself considered being worty..
Jesus made clear in Mattew 16:24 that " If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me"... meaning, to follow Christ, to truly love him, means to keep his commandments, to deny ourselves, and as Titus states it, even deny ourselves "of ungodliness and worldly lusts, living soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;"...
So, the idea that faith alone will get us into heaven, seems false to me. Paul made clear what stands above faith, which is charity, meaning, that everything that brings forth within us the fruits of charity, is of God, even if that transendes specific religions, dogmas or selfherent interpretations of supposed inherent truths..
@@Imtryingtobelikejesus-m1m I think what fills the gap is faith, having faith in their interpretation of God that whatsoever God says and does must be just, because God is the author of justice. It is like a child trusting its parents in all things, even when parents would tell them to jump off a high cliff because they would catch them...
Personally I believe thought that "faith" and "trust ´, as we see it often with children and their parents, requires a deep knowing and relationship, and to know God also means to understand love..(See Books of John)
first off you are assuming that "deny yourself of all ungodliness" is equivalent to works or keeping the commandments when it could just as easily mean simply the willingness to recognize ungodliness as a bad thing or denying ungodliness as something you would want to be a part of you.
secondly you fundamentally misunderstand if then statements, the result is not exclusive to the condition, there are other conditions that can give the same result. that scripture is not necessarily saying that denying yourself of all ungodliness is the only way to receive grace just that denying yourself of ungodliness will result in grace.
not sure if you are genuinely confused or being disingenuous but it's clear there is no contradiction here and all these uses of grace are referring to the same thing.
"denying yourself of all ungodliness" and "believing in Christ" could mean the same thing and in that case the Book of Mormon would directly support the bible
@@triggethridge9326they’re not the same thing though. Believing in Christ is not equal to denying yourself of any and all imperfection. What sort of logic is that?
@@BrendonKing how can you believe in Christ who is godly yet be accepting of ungodliness? if you are ok with sin, how can you believe the man who tell us not to sin?
It's not the same thing to say that "denying yourself of all ungodliness is NOT a precondition for grace" and "we're accepting of ungodliness."
No, we do NOT think that being ungodly is evil. Nor do we think that good works & ordinances are ungodly. That's an unfair portrayal.
What we ARE saying is that the New Testament doesn't say that ordinances/godliness are prerequisites for grace or eternal life.
@@GLM who is we? and when did I say any of these things you're arguing against? my point is that your logic and assumptions are flawed and there doesn't appear to be any contradictions here. personally it actualy seems like the Bible and Book of Mormon support each other here.
I'm not trying to be mean but videos like this just sound like people arguing over the lore of their favorite fantasy series.
It's honestly the exact same as people arguing whether Egwene could heal Nynaeve in the live action series or not.
Like, yeah, it goes against the lore. But the fact we're arguing about lore is evidence that it's all made up. But it's still definitely all made up.
God sometimes wants blood sacrifice, sometimes he only wants contrition. Sometimes he wants genocide, sometimes he wants global acceptance and love. What he wants is constantly argued over like Star Wars fans arguing over whether Rey is a Mary Sue or not.
Who do you think your creator is?
@@lionheart93 I don't think I was created by someone. I think asking "who" my creator is doesn't make sense, I think it's begging the question. I don't think there is a "who."
Maybe there is. Maybe I was created by a conscious being who feels a certain way about me. It seems very unlikely to me but I can concede that it's possible. But I don't know. I'm comfortable not knowing.
But I'm not willing to make the leap from "I don't know why I have consciousness" to "God must have done it."
Uhhhh yeah you have to buy in first
Sad when a pastor has to use clickbait to teach the gospel. Can this pastor not just teach his beliefs but he tries to clickbait others.
So thankful for the truth..wasnt click bait at all..mormoms coming to the real Jesus..woohoooooo❤
@@chadnz1003 The real Jesus. There’s 43,000 Christian churches in the world and they all teach something different. Nothing is organized. You really think Christ wants his church to be so disorganized? 😂 I sure hold people aren’t falling for this deceitful clickbait.
Thats when "selfherent" and "selfvocal" interpretations of supposedly inherent und univocal truths lead to letting someones own light appear brighter by dimming the light of others..
What clickbait? There is none, Mormonism teaches a works based salvation which contradicts the Bible.
Not trying to be clickbait - usually clickbait is something clickable that has very little to do with the content of the actual video.
For what its worth - part of pastoral ministry is defending against false teaching. A fair amount of the New Testament was devoted to this! Explaining why certain beliefs/practices aren't biblical is absolutely one of the duties of pastors. We live in Utah, and so we're surrounded by members of the LDS Church....and thus it's worth addressing.
You just don’t understand our theology. Grace is salvific, something that is gifted, and then there is enabling grace, which is granted more and more depending on obedience.
So it’s not a gift, because I have to earn more grace and it’s offered to me dependent to my adherence.
That’s a wage. That’s what I do at work. I do my work, and then I am owed my check. My company is not gifting me that money, they owe me that money.
@@BrendonKing You don’t understand our theology either. And you most likely don’t understand χάρις (charis) or grace found in the New Testament. I suggest you study where Paul borrowed that Greek word from and its implications under the patron/client relationship and system. Its initial saving qualities are free. Salvation and resurrection, and the ability to be judged. However, in order to receive exaltation faithfulness is required, faith requires action, or it is not faith. The culture and language of the New Testament disagree with you.
@@devinhildebrandt2709 my friend, I am fully aware of grace as taught/understood by the vast majority of the LDS faith. I was once a faithful member myself.
I generally understand the distinction between the universally salvific grace and the divine assistance that aids us on the road to exaltation.
My argument is that such a definition is contrary to the New Testament concept of grace.
The idea that the definition of faith requires action is utterly false - and will incidentally be the subject of the next scripted video I post (probably upcoming in the next week or two).
@@BrendonKing being a member does not mean you understand. I wasn’t just talking about our theology I was talking about the roots of the Greek word for grace.
You are mistaking grace with faith and covenant. Jesus paid for all the sins of mankind. But not all will be saved. The price is sin was paid for all. That is grace. Salvation is accepting that grace, and not all people will accept it. You call it works incorrectly
Pull up Book of 2Nephi 23-25 from book of mormon and also Ehp 2:8-10 from the bible. They both contradict eachother yet one was written from a eye witness of Christ one wasn’t. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ, nephi says that “we are saved by grace after all we can do” which implies that grace comes after works which is incorrect.
@@billythe_kid5999 I think you mean 2 Nephi 25:23, the famous passage that all evangelicals completely misinterpret, despite all that we do.
Can Protestants agree that the letters in the New Testament was not all that the Apostles left with the church? Imagine you are one of the Apostles setting up churches and you stay with them for years teaching them and then you write a letter to them and many many years later all they care about is your letter and not the oral teachings you left? Wouldn’t that be a huge disappointment? Also if we reject those churches the Apostles established and its theology, how then can we prove or know we have the correct theology? Hopefully we all can agree we didn’t establish those churches. So how can we know we are correct? Seems like Protestants are in a similar position as the Mormons. Cause they too reject the church God and his apostles established and they too hope that the Holy Spirit reveals to them the truth of the Bible when they read the English translation plainly. Seems like it makes us our own ecumenical council and authority? Which doesn’t sound Christian.
I usually don’t respond to comments but here I go. I realize I won’t change your theology in a RUclips comment, but I only need to say that you’re suggesting the apostles would teach something orally that would contradict something they wrote in a letter to the church. Furthermore, the writings were divinely inspired, meaning these weren’t merely the wise words of men, but the actual God-breathed ideas and doctrine to be shared with the world.
To answer your point, how can we know we have the correct theology? Because we have the divine words written down. We don’t reject the teachings of the apostles; quite the contrary. The teachings of Paul and the apostles are recorded for us in the scriptures and we take them as truth.
We simply don’t believe the Pope is infallible, we don’t believe you have to give hail Mary’s-nor do we believe she was sinless-and we don’t believe works are needed for salvation. Why? Because the apostles never taught it!
@@brebmann thank you for your response. I’m fairly new to Christianity and I’m trying my best to learn as much as I can. So to me these are good questions I think many people have the same questions. I too am anti papist. But to make clearer my position, I was not suggesting the Apostles taught contradictory to what they say in the letters. I’m questioning the “lens” we used to interpret what they mean. Remember we are thousands of years removed and we read an English translation. Even if we could read Greek it would not change the question of which lens are we reading it in? Do we read the Bible in context of the oral tradition the apostles left with the church or do we just hope the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to us when we read it plainly? I see in the Protestant sphere a ton of disagreement and that shows my point of everyone believing their own private interpretation. Or they cross the street to another Protestant church that does agree with them. I tend to want to trust what the historic church fathers and apostles have to say. I agree the writings were divinely inspired and I also would say the same thing to what the apostles verbally taught the church. They spent a long time with those churches. The Canon is a glimpse of all they taught. The canon is not designed or meant to be separated from the church. By that I mean to be interpreted independently. Thats the devils game. Make everyone question what God has revealed. I thought Protestants teach we have a sin problem? Is it possible our sin problem can interfere with our interpretation of scripture? Also apart from the church Christ and his apostles established, how do we even know what makes up the canon? What standard do we have to say what does or does not belong in the canon?
And if these are dumb questions I apologize.
In Matt 22:31-32, Jesus says, "have you not READ what was SAID to you by God..." (emphasis added). Jesus is saying that reading the scriptures is equivalent to hearing a command from God. Regardless of the early teachings of the apostles, our generation is commanded by God through the scriptures, just like Jesus was teaching the Sadducees.
The Early church are the ones who compiled them. They clearly believed these to be authoritative. Keep in mind the Early church knew the apostles on a personal level. The New testament epistles and Gospels are what have been past down. Don't go searching for obscure nonsense because 10 times out of 10 they are falsifications. The Early Church had exactly ehat they needed.
This is a false pastor. Hey you realize sex before marriage is a sin, right?
Quit speaking nonsense, fornication was never even mentioned in this video.
...what? Yeah, the Bible teaches fornication is sinful.
@joelofjudah9144 but you have a problem with it, don't you?
@@WatchingwaitingG2Dof course I do. But it isn't the topic of the video.
@joelofjudah9144 knowing and following are 2 different actoons.
Grace is a gift, but you cannot accept it without work(s). Faith without works is dead
Romans 4:4 would disagree. If you work for it, it's not a gift, it's your due.
@@GLM then there is a contradiction in the bible
@@devinhildebrandt2709 Romans 4:4 does not contradict James 2:20. GLM is saying the statement "Grace is a gift, but you cannot accept it without work(s)" contradicts Romans 4:4.
Please see: ruclips.net/video/smtuVkvF_qQ/видео.html and ruclips.net/video/eaPHRNHdTlk/видео.html
@@devinhildebrandt2709no not necessarily. The verse says *faith* without works is dead. Not *salvation through faith* without works is dead.
By recognizing the difference between dead faith and dead salvation (if that’s even correct Gramatically but you get the point) you see that he’s comparing living faith to dead faith.
If you claim to have faith but have no works, then do you really hold honest faith in the Lord?
If you watch a man cross a tightrope with a man in a wheelbarrow 10 times, and he comes up to you and asks you “do you believe I could cross with a man in the wheelbarrow one more time?” You could reply with
“Yes I believe you could”
But when he asks you to get in, you refuse. For you believe that the man CAN do it, but when you are really tested, you don’t have enough faith to rely on him for your life.
The same with Jesus. You can believe he exists, you can believe he can save you.
But do you believe IN Him, do you have faith in Him. If you do, your works will be an outcome of that faith. If you don’t, and you don’t have works, I.e. getting in the wheelbarrow, then a viewer could see that you don’t truly have faith in the man.
That’s the difference between your faith without works being dead, as opposed to your salvation without works being dead.
It’s a conditional gift like an engagement ring 💍
When I propose to a girl, there are obviously strings attached to the “Free Gift” I am giving her
The gospel is the same way
It’s free conditioned on repentance and friendship with God
One silly self delusion vs. another silly self delusion. It's time our species outgrows Bronze Age nonsense.
Did you ever stop to actually research this stuff. Or do you just parrot what ever is told to you?
For such free thinkers I’ve never seen a bunch of individuals more hive-minded than anti-theists
If you saw an angel would you believe? Be honest
@@DynamicGracer Humanoids with feathered wings? You've got to be kidding. Instead of talking about pretend hypothetical situations, how about presenting actual proof? No one ever has, no one ever will.