Sonic Needs a New Look
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 27 сен 2024
- Been thinking about these kinds of things for a while. Hopefully with Sonic Team hiring a bunch of new people, they'll get some actual artists, and cinematographers, and modelers, and animators, and writers, and programmers, and designers and... Oh, boy. It's not looking good...
/ pariah695
ko-fi.com/pari...
It’s insane to me how a franchise that built its initial appeal off of style is lacking style
And it lacks SO MUCH of it.
And The Simpsons built its initial appeal off being funny.
Yeah, I mean it's worth asking if Sonic is even still a fundamentally "cool" character anymore? It honestly hasn't really been what they're going for with how he's depicted for quite a while now- arguably since the major writing shift in Sonic Colors.
I don't know that Sonic Team still considers style to be a huge aspect of Sonic's core design anymore.
@@HyenaFox 100% but it’s also worth asking if what they’re going for is working. I’d be fine with a more IDW depiction but they’re either too afraid to let Ian Flynn write their games beyond just dialogue or they just want to keep them as safe and boring as possible.
@@SeanMania213The IDW comics are kinda mid ngl
I think if they had gone with the hand drawn route with Superstars, it'd probably have a little more hype.
The thing is people would've said that Sonic/Mario is copying the other person's work if they did that
@@PokeblueblurWhy? Mario hasn't had any games with a hand-drawn sprite style
@@MarkerMurkerwell yoshi's island but that doesn't count really
I imagine people would say that because they think Mario wonder is hand drawn (it's not, it's just very cleverly animated and shaded/colored)
@@igirjei3717 I wanna believe enough people aren't that dumb, especially since neither would be the first hand drawn platformers even just for the relatively mainstream (Rayman for example).
Also even if they *were* cribbing from Mario *this* time it would actually be good as long as Sonic finds an maintains a unique and cool visual to it's artstyle.
@@shupasopni yeah I just want sonic to be both cool, and have actual quality. We're getting towards the latter fairly consistently, but the stock models from a decade and a half ago need to go
That’s why I love Sonic and the Fallen Star fan game so much. It has a unique art style for a Sonic game that really works for Classic Sonic despite being pixel art again.
I was just thinking about the fallen star every second of this video
I really wish Fallen Star was a challenging game. I played the whole game without dying, and then the final boss was impossible
@@gummiewormproduction honestly, the only thing holding me back is not getting the goddamn emeralds, the game really is way too easy, but I don't mind it actually, it's to pretty to notice it lol
@@gummiewormproductionThe difficulty is in the special stages, my friend lol
@@mrbanks456 me wants a difficult game. Difficult special stages don't mean jack lol. I can't beat all the special stages in Sonic 2, but the game is great!
The renders for these Sonic characters are the worst. 💀💀 When one of my former students came in class with a Sonic-themed goodie bag, I couldn't help but think "boy, no wonder people don't like this series" because the models are so bland. This video also made me think the fact that I gave up on Sonic for an entire decade was because of the lack of uniqueness to the games.
Sonic has a lot of potential, but it really boils down to lack of budget, limited time and number of people working on this series. If Sonic had all of these, he could live up to the vision the team has for him.
You are on point with much of this. I been saying that for years "Sonic has no gameplay or style that makes you scream that's Sonic!" 9:05 full agree.
Yeah
Very great video, Sonic’s style in 3D has been so homogenized and bland for so long, I’m SO sick of the post-Unleashed models. I think we all are. It’s holding the games’ style back. The way I always put it for friends is “before 2008, the characters looked like the characters. But today, the characters look like corporate cynical homogenized versions of themselves.”
I don't like the classic Sonic Superstars model but I will be getting the game. Sadly I don't have a Nintendo Switch because I would have definitely gotten Mario Wonder since visually wise from what we've seen so far looks better than Superstars.
The reason for that is to make the franchise consistent in terms of visuals.
Nah, not all of us.
Lol. I'm not going to talk about all games pre Unleashed, but don't tell me that Sonic and friends models in 06 is better than what we have today. At least Sonic's size in the Modern Era looks accurate compared to whatever the fuck the designers of 06 did with him.
Hard disagree. The unleashed/ generations model looked like a natural evolution of what Sonics design was in the adventure era.
A perfect example is Sonic & Knuckles: Newtrogic Panic. It has so much style and charisma and artistic integrity in its designs and environments and animations. If it was what Superstars looked like, way more ppl would be excited.
Honestly Sonic Galactic looks 100 times better than Sonic Superstars. Matter of fact it might as well be the true next classic Sonic game.
You failed to mention that the Storybook games also have a nice visual flair to them in the 2D cutscenes.
I was thinking about them too.
Sonic Battle as well.
Amen!!
Absolutely
there so much nicer
ong
sonic has so much potential appeal that just isnt taken advantage of which is so damn apparent with all the sick stuff fans make about the series. would be really cool if the official stuff could match those levels of style but alas
you’re so right. imagine someone who’s never been exposed to any official sonic media before, but they see all the fan art, fan games, fan animations, etc etc. so they check out the official games. i can only assume they’d be insanely underwhelmed.
That's why I love the advance style so much, all characters when made in that design just POP
I remember playing that one flash sonic game that has the advance style and I was like, damn they look amazing, way better than 06 or unleashed, and I was like 7 xD
In my opinion, Frontiers was made not with fans in mind, but rather, trends. Sega’s desire to compete with Zelda left Frontiers without an identity of its own. This is why I think it looks bland.
Actually i like the majority of the cutscenes of Sonic Heroes and Riders, i think that in those games they did a good job portraying personality. Not amazing, there is a still a ton of work, but it was the right direction.
In terms of looks, i think a muted less flare look, BUT the faster you go, the more colorful and vivid the game begins to look.
Reward good gameplay with better visuals, that's so genius, I genuinely wonder how they haven't done something like this.
Okay, well the Wii version of Sonic Unleashed increases the FOV the faster you go which really sells the speed.
Fuck the look, Sonic needs a new development team so these mainline games arent trash anymore.😂😂😂
💯
pariah drops? i click. simple
7:52 What you said about SA2 is totally true, I played it for the first time last year and I was surprised of how much I was enjoying the story. The only 3d sonic games I had played before were Generations and SA1, and after SA2 I completed Heroes, Frontiers and currently playing Colors. None of them had a story where I liked the cutscenes as much as the gameplay or even more, they just feel so epic with the voice acting, dialogue, tone and characterization of almost everyone.
The entire Gerald Robotnik's message about Maria in the last story was something I didn't expect in a Sonic game (I knew just a bit of Shadow's lore back then) and had me totally hooked. I even completed the game just before going to my highschool's delivery of diplomas and passed it again this year, that's how much I got to like the game. Despite all its issues, I really felt a strong and great identity thanks to all the things mentioned, many of its levels and the soundtrack. Epicness is a word I could use to describe SA2.
I didn't mention the graphics since I practically didn't play any games from that era and because I also like to think that the content is more important (while I agree with your explanation about their importance). I must say that though that while Sonic Superstars' graphics don't amaze me (neither disgust me) my biggest concern about the game is if it will be better than S3&K or at least have its own and strong identity. Because as much as SA2 is a game with identity for me, S3&K also has the identity of being one of the best and more ambitious 2d plataformers of all-time, thanks to way it tells its story mainly. While Superstars will play differently thanks to all the emeralds, original zones and multiplayer mode, it makes me wonder if it will be enough for it or even any 2d CLASSIC (I highlight it because I played only one 2d Modern sonic game) Sonic game in the future to equal S3&K. If they can't, at least they should go with an attempt of being just as great but with a different approach, enough to differenciate from S3&K and make you think not if you prefer S3&K or Superstars, but if you prefer out of 2 great games, one way of storytelling or another, one atmosphere or another, things like that...
The Shadow the Hedgehog CGI opening is, to this day, the coolest piece of Sonic media I've seen. It's so awesome, everything going on, the CGI is amazing, the music slaps AND IT HAS THE TYPE OF STYLE I WANT IN A SONIC GAME.
Facts that intro goes hard
Yes, but you're enough stupid to make a difference between CGI of all games and calling Frontiers CGI is just a "slightly better" in-game version, while literally the only common point between ALL Sonic games is the CGI and characters, those 2 things are the first ones making us know we play a Sonic game, even its spin-offs have it, it succeed to remain same, even made by 3 different studios, and what do you do? You criticize the CGI of one of them, calling it just a better version of in-games, despite it's the same visual quality since 2005 (excluding Riders series and 06).
Edgy then
Don't forget Unleashed's Pixar quality opening!!
@@coltonk.3086 It’s really not as good as Shadow (2005)’s opening, nor is it higher quality.
Some Sonic fangames that come up on the top of my mind for cool and awesome visuals would be Sonic Freedom, Galactic, and my absolute favorite, Newtrogic Panic
LOVE Freedom, Newtrogic Panic, and as at least one person mentioned Fallen Star.
Not technicly Sonic but Freedom Planet 2 is another great example. What is it with Sonic related artists named Tyson and being great?
Tyson Tan's art was so good that even when he was just doing fanart for the first game people loved his stuff, so much he got hired for the second one and I find it hard to look at the old looks for the characters.
Don't forget Sonic Storm! That game is absolutely oozing with style
A trailer for Sonic Superstars killed my hype. Sonic's going through a Donkey Kong style Grind Rail segment but jumping over enemies eliminates momentum and he must jump to make it to a spring... LAME LAME LAME LAME LAME LAME LAME!!!
Graphics don't sell, but art direction does. Superstars is graphically alright, it's visually pleasing, but it doesn't have a striking art style most would say "Is Sonic."
I think what Frontiers does right is, it doesn't capture the look, but it leans closer to it. The visuals are bland but they do *contribute* to an atmosphere, which ties in with the game's attempts to return to stronger storytelling. It's not quite there, but many people cite Frontiers as a 'step in the right direction.'
As for Unleashed, I think it gets some slack. The cutscenes are flat but, I think it's a little much to ask that every cutsene looks on-par with the opening one. They did a fantastic job working in a spectacle into the daytime stages and some of the Werehog's animations, so to say Unleashed only has the opening cutscene going for it purely because an average cutscene doesn't meet that standard feels a little nitpicky.
Heck, we even got like, 4 of the best animations (Night of the Werehog and the other 3 clips) out of Unleashed. It's not part of the story but, together with the opening cutscene, the climax, Werehog Sonic's animations and the daytime stages, Unleashed is a game that OOZES cinematic spectacle that lots of people agree "Feels like Sonic."
That does come back to Superstars though. Frontiers at least *tries*, even if it fails to understand a lot of things. Unleashed can be very cinematic. Mania was a return to form. Superstars doesn't know what it wants to be.
Also disagree about Sonic Riders's style only coming from its opening. I honestly think the opening, while nice looking, is a little generic. It's well animated but it doesn't do much with that. In-game you've at least got cool futuristic hoverboards and interesting animations, especially with how the game encourages you to do tricks and how fast paced everything is. Zero Gravity only furthers the futuristic aesthetics too, it's probably what I think most people refer to when they talk about the style of these games?
In a recent Twitter post, Kishimoto addressed a comparison video someone posted of Unleashed and Frontiers that even went as far as showing how Sonic doesn’t do different tricks after a homing attack chain. He basically said that they will take this feedback on board and try to deliver a better experience in terms of visuals and animation. Hopefully we see this with the next game.
it’s cool he listens but like, man… why does it need to even be said? it’s like a chef saying “hmm.. yes, i will consider seasoning this meat next time around.”
I feel like another part of the reason why Sonic Superstars isn't getting as much attention as Sonic Mania is because of Sonic Origins. When Sonic Mania was revealed, there were no weird DLC tables, deluxe editions and pre-order rewards -- it was announced as a return of the true Classic 2D Sonic, from the renowned community members that did amazing ports of classic Sonic games, and despite it using the in-game style akin to Sonic 1 and 2, it compensated with bright visuals, high detalization, lots of additional in-between sprites to make the game look very smooth and stylish. It nailed its marketing! Sonic Origins, while being just a port, could have benefited from the same kind of marketing -- because it's a compilation of ports made by people who made Sonic Mania, it could have been a definitive, official way to play the classic games (that were already good on its own). Instead, we immediately get a weird table of different versions with "features" that were completely non-essential and unnecessary and thus didn't justify a higher price tag. And that's on *top* of the compilation being very broken and unfinished, even though it was supposed to be re-releases of highly polished mobile ports. Whatever interest people had in Classic Sonic was tainted by how poorly Sonic Origins was handled, so people didn't get as excited for a new 2D Classic game, on top of the reasons you've mentioned in the video.
On visual design in video games: people might forget that a game is not just the gameplay of that game, though it's definetly the defining part of it. It's also the visuals, the music, the story, the presentation of all of these things -- it's the entire, cohesive thing, and butchering even one of these things will drag down the *entire* game, regardless of how good the actual gameplay might be. You can have the greatest story or an amazing gameplay, but if the voice direction or the presentation of the cutscenes are bad, that story simply will fly over people's heads or will be received by players much more critically than if they were presented with proper quality of direction. When people say "graphics don't matter", they usually think about games like Minecraft with its pixel graphics, simple textures and shapes -- but it can be argued that Minecraft actually looks very good, because it has a consistent and definitive artstyle (albeit simple) that comes together very nicely, and it has a great amount of polish that makes it stand out from beginner projects. The problem isn't with simplicity of the graphics, it's with how you utilize the visual language for the benefit of the game, so to speak.
Also, yeah, I don't like the 3D Classic Sonic model. In most of the Japanese 2D arts and promo material for Classic Sonic of the 90s, Sonic looked very serious and cool, especially in Sonic CD. The 2D model from Generations and Forces feels like a baby version of Sonic.
Honestly, i think we can all agree that this framchise NEEDS more STYLE. Like, go ALL IN on that stuff.
Bring back Hideki Naganuma, make the soundtrack, UI and so on more hip hop inspired like SF6 - hell, make the universe more emphasised around street/hip hop culture in general.
Give us the "too cool for school" stuff from the 2000s every now and then. Bring back the butt rock!
Give these character models more EDGE and ENERGY and PERSONALITY!
And for God's sake, just make Sonic into a kid-friendly DMC 3 Dante. Seriously, it would make so much SENSE.
I want this so badly but sonic fans are so complacent with the bare minimum despite always being shown otherwise.
I do think there are things about Sonic's design that need to change. The proportions need to change for sure. Make the characters a bit taller (not Sonic Boom Knuckles tall) and make the hands and feet and heads a bit smaller. Not too drastically, just enough so that it doesn't look weird when they do certain things in 3D. Sonic 06 had sort of the right idea with the way they sized the characters, but like nearly everything in that game, it just wasn't executed very well. Also I'm iffy on cel-shading Sonic games, but I've warmed up to cel-shading for the more modern games that use it. People can say what they want, but like 99% of cel-shaded games from back then don't look "timeless" for the cel-shading. It's quite the opposite actually, they look immediately aged as soon as they came out. Back then it felt like they were just taking poor or mediocre graphics and put big thick black lines over the characters and certain objects. But anyway, it's gotten better in modern times, so I'd be less worried about Sonic doing that.
I think Sonic shouldn't go full on cel-shaded, but have a similar less hi-fidelity style.
Maybe something closer to Wind Waker HD, but more vibrant?
Anyway, With how fast Sonic goes, pure cel-shading would probably look like a mess. But they need to stop trying to make everything so realistic. The amount of texture they have to put into things you're gonna see for half a second is crazy. A less detailed, more stylized approach would allow the world to be more cartoonish without feeling off, and it would also allow models to be more cartoonish and exaggerated in their animations.
Crash Bandicoot 4 is a great example of a 3D platformer with a distinct visual identity. I hope Sonic looks as good as that game in the future
Me too.
Let's hope we get a redesign for the Sonic characters in the future.
Plus, the character design of Sonic The Hedgehog (and Splatoon) is nowhere near hot garbage as Steven Universe or Luca or Ruby Gillman Teenage Kraken.
ironically crash 4 bombed though while the insane trilogy was the best selling in the series. So even style isnt enough.
@@eishikibahamut ok.
Also, aren't you going to respond to my comment?
People are very split on Crash 4's style to this day. I personally think it looks way worse than something like Superstars.
crash 4's artstyle is just the same as spyro reignited's lol
I have it on good authority that Sonic Freedom was shown to the higher ups at SEGA. This is why they considered a hand-drawn approach AND the Bullet Dash is now an emerald power up! My work here is done.
But this sentiment is exactly what I shared in my "Where Does 2D Sonic Go From Here?" I want Ori Sonic. I want Rayman Sonic. I want a fast, fluid, punchy and energetic platformer, not another pinball game. Momentum is core to 2D Sonic, but surely we can spice things up with potent abilities and fix the dang camera, right?
Yep, noticed the bullet drop move in Superstars too.
Also noticed people arent whining about it not having any momentum which is ironic 🙄
13:53 I’ve actually seen an inverse of this phenomenon with Wallace and Gromit and FNAF (yes pls bear with me). In actual plasticine Wallace looks great and silly looking, but in 2d art he looks horrifying. I assume it might be due to the black outlines. And with FNAF 2d art (ignoring the drama with the artists) I don’t like how they bring life to the characters. Scott’s weird DKC render style adds a layer of creepiness to the animatronics, and them being 3d models means it’s easier to make them look soulless. But with the 2d art, they feel too clean and full of life. Which also sucks bc it seems that modern FNAF is leaning more on 2d art than the 3d renders, like how the fanverse logo has a 2d W. Freddy.
I think everything you said is pretty on point, but I do think even sonic fans are skeptical of superstars just because arzest is attached to it. It's also unfortunate to read interviews where they considered pixel art and traditional animation, but opted out of it most likely because 3D is so much easier and they already had 3d models for all the main characters so they probably figured why put in the extra effort?
I’ve heard people say Superstars is Sonic’s New Super Mario Bros, which makes me worry that it may suffer the same issue of being too samey in the long run
It does, while Mario changed it's visual style, got rid of the time limit, and has a whole new wacky premise. Sonic goes back to marketable with no changes except with co-op that looks like a mess and the chaos powers which I think are cool
I highly doubt they'd be a new Classic Sonic game in 3 years at least
I would love a cell shaded style sonic game.
Baby wake up Pariah dropped a new banger
3:50 Mario wonder undeniably has more style and, well, wonder
In response to the video in general, yeah sonic is looking bland since heroes pretty much
also, i really appreciate how you could make a clickbait title like "sonic superstars looks like shit" but straight up didn't
Honestly I agree, and for a record's sake, I am halfway through the video as of typing.
Somehow when it comes to cutscenes, the cinematic ones know what to do to sell viewers, yet they forget how to make such in the actual in-game cutscenes.
Even with Sonic Superstars looking as fine as it does, it lacks that energy that was felt, down to even the animation they use to promote the game looking less impressive compared to what came before from the team with Hesse.
Something that would help the Sonic series I feel that they have shown use before with in Sonic Unleashed's opening and even in the Advance games is a bit of that squash and stretch to accentuate that whoosh Sonic always was supposed to have, especially in ball movements, and while they use that motion blur in some instances, some smear styling would give wonders to Sonic in terms of movement.
It doesn't need to outright go back to Jet Set Radio, but it feels like Sonic has become so rigid and stiff so often. At the very least, make those cutscenes look cinematic to REALLY make it come to life.
Sonic needs style and ambition, it's what makes a Sonic game stand out.
They need to make Sonic look like a noodle-limbed stick figure with a backpack.
Absolutely despised Uekawa's Sonic Design.
I like the way he talks about the visuals being important and why Sonic Superstars might flop when the biggest selling 3D Sonic game is just grass, sand and volcano.
Also, he didn't just use Hi-Fi Rush as the big example as to what Sonic should be like when that game flopped..
And it only sold 3.5 million. Persona 5 sold 9 million. It has been out longer, but Frontiers is never going to hit those numbers.
@@Pariah6950You don't think the visuals are the reason Persona sold more, right? Not the fact Sonic has had a pretty notorious reputation for selling bad games?
@@JaniacTheHedgehog Not the sole reason, of course. But I do think it plays a big role. P5 alone has made half of the series overall sales.
@@JaniacTheHedgehogas someone who never played or even heard of a persona game before 5, the entire reason i picked it up was cuz of the style and music. And now im waiting hyped for the remake of 3 for the same reasons. And whenever 6 comes out im honestly more hype to hear the music and see the style they go with as opposed to the gameplay, cuz its just an rpg at the end of the day. Cuz the style is what made me fall in love with the series in the first place and its the same for sonic for me and a lot of other people. Like he mentioned sa2 and the cd intro. Those in particular are what made me fall in love with sonic as a kid when i played mega collection and sa2b on the gamecube. So the style of a series really does play a role into getting more eyes and hands on your game
@@Pariah6950 Don't you think that has something to do with the game overall being unique, rather than the visuals? And again, hasn't had the historic fumbles of Sonic? I know visuals are part of what makes a game good, but if that was one of the biggest reasons, then how has Frontiers made a third of what P5 has despite being the most bland looking Sonic game to date in a franchise with a long line of historic failures? It's more than just the visuals, it all just depends on what the game can bring to attract the player, including gameplay, replayability, soundtrack and the fun factor.
Sonic's modern design sucks. They should have stuck with the Sonic Heroes model or kept refining the Adventure model. His limbs are too long, his stomach area is too round and big, his head quills are too short and don't droop (they stick outward), his head is too small, his shoes are shorter in length and are too round, his muzzle is too round (below the eyes and nose and wrap around his cheeks). Either go back to the Adventure design, bring back the Heroes model, go back to the 06 design, or *fire* your current character designer because he sucks
A classic of Sonic fan. Happy on nothing.
id say that graphics still dont matter, what you probably talking about is art direction, doesnt matter if game plays at 30fps if it looks beautiful.
technically speaking mario wonder and superstars are in the same graphical level, but mario wonder has a much more interesting art direction.
I think you're mistaking "graphics" with "art direction"
Hand-drawn 2D games and cel shaded 3D games would be amazing.
this
It's cause no soap shoes. Hence why frontiers sold so well. Sonic should always have soap shoes from now on
Not even in dreams.
13:19 Thank you for bringing up Metal Sonic’s model, I’ve never seen anyone acknowledge that he had a different design in the adventure era, and I agree that this Metal Sonic looks far better than his modern design. Especially the shape of his head since his “quills” were larger and had the lower ones angled lower so the sharp ends were visible from the front, but the modern ones were shorter and made his head shaped like the Taco Bell logo from the front and it just pales in comparison to how he looked before.
my god metal's hands don't even look like sharp, metallic, threatening claws.
they look more like those white lego claws instead.
and overall, metal's modern design nowadays makes him come off as a cheap mcdonald's toy instead of a menacing, heartless, sonic doppelganger killing machine.
Please give him Blue Arms, a nifty handkerchief, and a couple bandages cause he’s athletic.
Also make Knuckles yoked!
10/10 redesigns for the Sonic cast.
thats just the sonic boom de- oh
but yeah sonic boom designs ARE 10/10
@@jinxmybeloved6930Finally someone who appreciates the boom designs. Imo the character proportions look way better in boom than the main series.
@@ALegendaryBlueHedgei'm not that big a fan of sonic's and knuckles' boom designs, they're kinda whatever.
tails and amy though? bangers, 10/10
I agree with this video quite a bit. In terms of Superstars, one of the things I was disappointed by was that as a 2.5D Classic Sonic game, they didn't lean more into what Generations did which was have a very lived in world where you'd go in and out of different planes constantly, as well as have far more camera tricks.
Superstars really does just look like a Classic Sonic game but with 3D models and that's pretty lame.
I'll still pick up Superstars, see how it goes, but the Classic Sonic thing is also very, VERY tiring in my eyes.
A Classic Sonic game in the style of Kirby 64 or Klonoa would be SICK
I always love your videos. I agree that Sonic needs something genuinely new.
Also, Mario Sunburn updated to 1.8 and you're gonna want it. It incorporates a ton of stuff in the options menu like 60fps without old Gecko codes, and adds a ton of 64 Plus-esque options. Super Mario Eclipse is the big mod for custom levels and is made by a team of geniuses. One of them leads Sunburn. Eclipse is at demo 2.1 with about 43 shines I think? I think you would like both these updated mods
Is that 60fps option only for emulator? Just wondering, because I can play Sunburn on my Wii (and base Sunshine, my Wii is backwardds-compatible) and having a 60fps option on Wii would be great, especially since Sunshine was originally going to be 60fps on GC and both Mario Galaxy games are 60fps.
@@legoboy7107 Older versions of Sunburn run on Gecko codes basically but the new 1.8 is on the "Better Sunshine" engine. I am not smart enough to know most of what that means, or modding in general, as the Sunshine community are geniuses...buy, I think it's too demanding for a GameCube. No clue what a Wii would do but it is ultimately a GameCube ISO so let me know how it goes haha :)
@@stevenshockley4237 I mean, Sunshine was kinda an outlier for being at 30fps at the time because most other Gamecube games were hitting 60, including even Sunshine's own beta, and again there's the Galaxy games being 60 (even in imported Sunshine stages) so theoretically a game that looks like Sunshine should be able to run at 60 on console and not be too demanding, but yeah it really depends on like how optimized the engine is and all that stuff which it very well just might not be _that_ good, as at the end of the day it is still just a mod.
But yeah these Sunshine modders are insane, especially with how much this scene kinda exploded out of nowhere. There was like barely anything for Sunshine, then suddenly Eclipse gets dropped out of nowhere with all sorts of insanity and even almost one-to-one recreations of Galaxy stuff in Sunshine and it's just like "where the freak did this come from?!"
@@legoboy7107 I know older versions had slow down on console and the simple explanation given to me was that the GameCube isn't powerful enough. I think it may have more to do with other inner workings more than the 60fps because you're right, even the beta was at 60 :) Sunshine is apparently a mess inside, so optimization makes sense. It was rushed but it's still my favorite 3D Mario game.
A pet peeve of mine is that in classic Sonic games, whether they be official or fanmade, feel the need to preserve Sonic's awkward running-in-the-air animation instead of giving him a landing animation.
For once, a video that isn't just "We need a new promo model" or "Stop using Marza sonic in general" But a video that argues for a change of pace, and not a complete overhaul. Good stuff Pariah!
Getting real tired of Sonic fans saying no one’s hyped for superstars because no one’s talking about it. Y’all need to get out of fandom bubble so badly. The reason people aren’t talking about the game isn’t because of this dumb “people are tired of classic sonic” narrative the fandom seems keen on pushing lately. It’s because the game is going to be good. Sonic discussion thrives on discourse and drama and y’all don’t know how to handle having a game where there’s nothing to worry about. They quelled every possible one early on. Fully original zones, the physics are accurate, and the only thing people were clinging onto was the possibility of the ost being trash cause Jun Senoue can’t make classic music, but since Tee and Rintaro are on it too, we don’t need to worry on that front either. There’s nothing to talk about, the game is guaranteed to be good and I will buy it when it releases. Simple as that. This is not an uncommon thing, I’ve seen it in a lot of other fandoms. Judging sales based on social media hype is dumb and I think it’s also a pretty scuffed take to say it won’t sell as much as Mania when it took a year for Mania to reach 1 million. This is post movie era, if anything, it just probably won’t sell as much as frontiers did.
I'm not talking about the Sonic fandom. I explicitly say I'm talking about the wider gaming world. I don't take this from social media. I take this from hard data. Just look at the views on the opening cutscenes for Mania vs Superstars as one example. 9 million views vs 400 thousand views. Not even one twentieth as many.
You didn't watch the video, did ya?
@@Pariah6950 I understand you’re not talking about the fandom in the case of hype. I’m specifically talking about how the inside of the fandom is pushing the narrative that no one is hyped for the game. But underlying, that’s not even the real point of your video. You’re using it as justification as for why Sonic needs a stylistic change which is an entirely separate topic that could’ve been done without trying to shoehorn the whole “no one cares about Superstars”. Also, “hard data” and then using videos posted on social media (yes RUclips counts as social media) as example is not helping your point. using the animation cutscene views as a metric is not really a fair comparison as there’s the factor of the time difference. No shit it has over how many view after several years, but to give you the benefit of the doubt, it did reach 1 million fairly quickly back then. That being said, there is also the additional context of difference in animation style and quality . Superstars opening is a lot more dull and jank compared to the colorful bombastic opening Mania has. That is a fair point that lends into your overall point about the sonic series needing more sense of style and being less generic. But views on cutscenes does not dictate the quality of the game itself and the level of enjoyment people will receive out of it or why they’d be hype for it. As a person that regularly worked with children at a local library for years, we had a Wii U and eventually a switch in the kids corner and the kids love playing games with multiple characters and co op and I think they’ll like both Mario Wonder and Superstars for that. I think that’s Superstars biggest selling point to general audiences at the moment. Co op, family oriented games sell like hot cakes on switch. It’s simple, cute and colorful, I think it will do the job it’s intended to and assuming that because the usual gaming circles online don’t talk about it hardcore like they did with mania indicates people don’t care is a foolish thought process. If anything, what Superstars is doing makes it less niche to general audiences
@@Pariah6950how much time has passed since that video dropped, Pariah?
It's definitely not gonna happen anytime soon with this fanbase. Over the past few years, a lot of Sonic fans - particularly the ones on Twitter, the ones that SEGA officials are actively interacting with and listening to the most - have become almost like these sort of religious zealots.
Anyone who criticizes or challenges the way Sonic is handled in the now is essentially a dissident, an enemy to the brand, that must be punished for their sins, no matter how nicely put or well-thought out their criticisms are. And if it's not quote retweet hellfire, it's _"Oh my god who caaares, Sonic fans complain and nitpick about everythiiing."_ The message is the same either way: Sonic *must* stay exactly as middling and mediocre it is right now for all of eternity.
Just last night, one of the artists working on the IDW Sonic comics posted on Twitter about how she's been working on changing the way she draws Sonic into something a lot more dynamic and appealing than her recent work has been over the past few years. You'd think oh this is celebratory, this is a good thing, it's great to see Sonic's artists listening to criticism and striving for the best, right?
Nope. Half of the quote retweets consisted of the zealots making up this insane narrative that she clearly only changed it because a vocal minority "bullied" her into doing so. Like she couldn't have possibly made this change on her own accord. I'm not even joking, you couldn't make this up if you tried.
But Sonic fans *do* complain and nitpick about anything.
@@kingtiger5040 In art and design, "complaining and nitpicking" is what makes the difference between mediocrity and greatness.
@@miadatenshi9903 At what point did I ever claim ABT's art was Evan's? Now you're just making stuff up.
So we just ignoring kishimoto account huh
Facts. Sonic needs some STYLE UP IN HERE🤝
MAN FIRST CLOUDBUILT AWARENESS AND THEN FURI
I am so happy to subscribe and sticking around man
Brainstorming my own potential game, I'm discovering there are actually two tiers of art style- there's the visual direction of the character design and the visual direction of the presentation. If you put a cel-shader over Silent Hill or if you changed the characters to chibi versions, it would be an entirely different feeling game. Sonic has always had one of the greatest character designs of all time, almost all Sonic characters have, so a presentation switch-up really would be the one to go with. Hell, it was even stated that they were experimenting with a 2D hand-drawn style early in Superstars' development, and that would have looked INCREDIBLE, especially compared to the uninspired and very basic looking 3D visuals they've gone with in the final game. But what else can you expect from the people who made Balan Wonderworld?
Ideally I'd love to see classic Sonic have a polished 90s anime look to it like a halfway point between the Sonic CD opening and the Sonic Mania opening, less Dragon Ball more End of Evangelion. Like there was that gorgeous 2D fan game concept from a couple years ago Sonic Freedom, do something like that! And then modern Sonic, if they're gonna keep that more realistic world look, the visual direction of the characters and items does need to be a bit tweaked, just a tiny bit. Give Eggman a new jacket with more realistic materials, make all the shoes less shiny, have all light sources be realistically placed and give physical reason to stuff like springs and rails instead of having them just float mid-air like Frontiers, that sort of thing.
I personally just want another Sonic anime.
I was saying this for years in the comments on RUclips, that Sonic needs a new and better look. But people were disagreeing with me all the time. I'm glad you think in the same direction
I kinda disagree.
I would love a Sonic game that looks like Guilty Gear or like, let's say, Fallen Star, but I think Superstars looks goregeous and refreshing, I love the cutscenes in Frontiers even if the graphics could be better, and I don't see why they should aim for mass appeal. If the sales are good enough then let the series stay in its niche.
I agree that the character models for the Modern designs need a makeover though. They sorta match Uekawa's modern style but they're too rounded and "lifeless", the Cream you showed is a perfect example.
Uhhh what? They are aiming for mass appeal. The current art style is the epitomy of mass appeal. That's the problem.
@s3studios597 What do you mean by that?
So there's no issue then.@@s3studios597
Graphics and style definitely matter. I've passed on a lot of games for looking either too generic or too realistic. I've actually fallen asleep while playing a COD game. I like FPS games, but only if there's something unique about their presentation
I haven't for bugsnax cause that game is visually appealing
Take it you've played the new DOOM games?
Ever since launch I've been defending the art style for Sonic Superstars and never understood why everyone thought it looked off (My logic was I saw a ton of praise for Kirby's return to dreamland and thought if this game looked on par to that game. I thought it was okay to look like this). To me it looked okay and was a refreshing jump from pixel art. But this video has really opened my eyes on the art style for this game. I still enjoyed Sonic Superstars all things considered but now I just look at it and see what it could've been if it had a different art style. Another thing factoring into this was how the quality just drops after Pinball Carnival Zone and I realized how bad these zones look lmao. If they're going to continue with the "Sonic Generations" esc art style/graphics, I feel like they could've done a lot more with the levels here. In Generations most of the levels had a lot of detail in their level backgrounds A lot of the stages feel generic or empty. the music doesn't even fit very well with a ton of them either. I feel like they could've stuffed a little more objects in the background to give it more detail. So it matches the quality of Bridge Island, Speed Jungle and Pinball Carnival. or at least at the same level of Sky Sanctuary. Of all that said tho I'm at least happy with their attempt at making new Zones and I see this game as a step in the right direction
as for the Sonic Artstyle and models in general I agree and I think they should do something about it to change it up too. If they want their games to be on the same level of quality as a Mario game for example (Naoto Oshima/Takashi IIzuka/someone working at SEGA Said that in an Interview somewhere but I don't remember where :/ )
Honestly this video captures my thoughts on Sonic's presentation perfectly. Im sure Superstars will be a good game, but I don't really care to much about it because it looks just like the other classic games. When I look at say the boost games they all have thier unique elements that make them stand out from each other. Unleashed is a globe trotting adventure with a high stake story and 2 different gameplay styles. Colors is a multiplanet adventure with Sonic game play and the wisps. Generations is a celebration title where we run through past locations with modern and classic sonic. Its a shame Sonic Team never made a 4th boost game, those games were great.
Frontiers too doesn't really interest me to much. The game looks generic, theres no creativity in the world like there is in a game like Colors or something. Say what you want about that game but it has a visual identity and it was probably the last Sonic game to do so. Im also not a big fan of things like the music in that game or the cutscenes for the same reason. Frontiers as a whole feels pretty basic. I can't really play it for that long without getting bored and wanting to play something else.
When you complain about Sonic's music, you can't be taken seriously anymore. And no need to be a genius to see you're another Sonic "fan" among all the ones that despise the franchise they're pretending to love.
-Mario's Wonder is as Sonic's Mania
-They Both bring back a classic style that hasn't been seen in years.
-Sonic's Superstars' is as Mario's New Soup.
Finally someone else comments how the core designs of the models are shit, they can be well animated as they want but that doesn’t change the fact the core designs are stale and nearly unmanageable in practice
very well said n i couldn't agree more !! great video yet again , Pariah !!
This is why the best of the best Sonic fangames have very original or refined artstyle
I think that sonic boom didn't help them change their mind
I have to admit, while I am looking forward to Superstars, I wouldn't really call my anticipation for the game as "hype". Its very much a "Yeah, Ill play it when it comes out i guess", and I must admit the fact the game looks very...bog standard, plays a big part.
I think the argument about having a stand out style and identity is a pretty important one. It's certainly why many people look back on games like CD and Black Knight very fondly.
I think the last Sonic game that had a particularly pronounced style and identity was Colors, funnily enough. 06, love it or hate it, also has this going for it, lol.
I will say, I do think Frontiers has a certaint style and identity to it with the Titans and Guardians and the cyber stuff everywhere. But its admittedly still leaving quite a bit to be desired.
When it comes to this question , this is where I think the music of the series does a *LOT* of heavy lifting.
Shoutouts to Sonic Battle and its style btw!
As for the models... they needed new ones ages ago.
Sometimes i feel like the track Sonic is on ever since 06 has fallen was the way it is in folloeing a lot of the Nintendo playbook in regards to standardization and by effect, sterilization.~~Or perhaps more behind the scenes.~~
In general, the models aren't really appealing despite being very standard and uniform. I personally preder the Heroes models unironically.
I was going to say a lot of this in the video, but thought it was unnecessary.
Colors was the last game that really popped. That was a game people were like, "I can't believe how good this Wii game looks." Gens looks good as well, but it lacks an identity of its own since it's revisiting old things.
Battle, now that was a game with style. Not just the character portraits, the menus, the voice lines in battle, the UI, the cards. The opening cutscene where it flashes all the characters in time with the music, then you get that burning flame on the logo. So good.
And yeah, the Heroes models are the best looking the modern characters have ever had. They do the best job of translating Uekawa's art into 3D.
To be fair sonic the fighters is probably the most visually interesting game in the series since everyone’s models are dynamic when they bounce around when they get slammed and it all looks silly in a good way I think probably a coat of direction to take note of
Did we played the same game?
Frontiers cinematography is good with a lot of nice shots and composition.
If your argument is based on the optional side story scenes,then your opinion is invalid cause even final fantasy 16 has that kind of stuff, just two characters standing and talking.
Yeah sure frontiers animation isn't mind blowing but the composition of the scenes was the best since forever
Frontiers animation is horrible lol
@@jasonblack2477Get a life.
I never comment, but this vid hit home! I’m looking forward to superstars, but the potential is insane! Squash and stretch everything! Make the motion more anime. Can you even imagine if sonic was done by the same studios as guilty gears or streets of rage 4!!!!
As someone who's very hyped for Persona 3 Reload, I have been enjoying watching reaction videos, and on the notion of style, everytime it's fun to see the most "WOW!" reaction being the Menu. The thing that got most of the "wow" factor was a fricking Pause Menu, because that's how great the style is, and well how important it can be. Personally one of my favorites in terms of general style and presentation is Celeste.
Sonic with cell-shading is something I'd pay for.
man if i worked with sonic team
LONG READ DISCLAIMER frustrates me how sonic and friends models, expressions, and flair itself just looks so much better outside of 3D game media(such as Idw, murder of STH, and even sonic Prime). While I appreciate some of the expressions, angles, and other cool additions to the presentation in frontiers, It would be so much easier to convey what they're trying to show in the characters personalities and abilities if they did so In the models and animation.
Sonic Prime? Oh, no, never.
Cant believe sonic was both visualy and graphically appealing in 2000s , we are so sick of the post unleashed models i get why modern Sonic fans want classic to be gone for good cuz classic already returned back in mania so i dont get it now why superstars basically replaced to new 2d modern game superstars isnt visualy graphically appealing and still use same 2d stuffs which is why people aren't excited for this game , modern Sonic deserves more attention especially after the dark ages are over this franchise needs to evolve by also changing art style this is we always say
We need to evolve not evade , be consistent , do not rush games , 0 dated responses , move forward not backwards ,
This is exactly what this franchise needs to do especially the fanbase.
I couldn't agree more about the 2d vs 3d art style. There's so much love and personality put into the artwork of the early 2000's.
they could make a 3d classic game and sell well
Funnily enough, P 06 has better visuals than pretty much any Sonic game in like a decade.
For better or worse 06 had a vision with its art style, it was going for something.
Graphics and art style are two different things tough. When people say they do not care about graphics it means they do not care how many polygons a model has, not how it looks. A good art style can make things look great even after a long time such as Wind Waker which has lower graphics than games that came out after but look considerably more dated despite coming out with higher graphics. People like different art styles and a strong art style can make things look fantastic despite budget limitations.
Sonic needs a backpack and dot eyes
I'm not gonna lie, i think this whole discussion is a great big cherry-picking contest. I can point to any number of scenes in SA2 of characters standing around, talking and mocapping at each other. I can point to Unleashed's egg beetle cutscene, the Eggmanland cutscenes, or nevermind the gorgeous landscapes. Speaking of landscapes, i could say a lot of the same things people say about Frontiers and now apparently Superstars for some reason that i could say about Unleashed stages, or City Escape, or Kingdom Valley or Emerald Coast. "There's no Sonic iconography, he's just in a generic place with no style or even identifiable structures." And i immediately point to the massive ruins everywhere like the diamond structure, the satellite dishes, the wall with the hole in it, the cannons, the remains of eggman's robots, etc. Nevermind cyberspace being filled with the exact iconography you say you want. Superstars has checkerboard hills in the first stage, jungles with stylized trees and striped vines you grind on, a digital dimension where you turn into squids. So, is it really that you want Sega to just throw more money at the project? I mean, i agree, but that's not a fundamental style issue. But then you get people who point to lockbox renders and go "whY iS MoDErN SoNiC sO uGlYyYYYy???" When the render looks a little off but mostly fine. I can point to any Mario lunchbox render that looks the same, and yet this is an exclusively Sonic issue.
No. Honest to god, Sonic looks fine. The idea that you can look at any 2D render for Frontiers, or the Japanese Vandalize trailer, or the Titan battles and go "this game has no identity" is asinine.
Truer words have never been spoken
I get the feeling you just completely missed the point.
You mention Frontier, and that game is the absolute epitome of "Sega, hire this man".
Good video, liked it quite a bit. I can see a lot of where you're coming from regarding Sonic lacking a defined style.
Besides that, the Mario example gave me some PTSD................. Just what I needed on a Tuesday.
I think this all comes down to Sonic team's constant oscillation in terms of manpower and talents. Sonic adventure, SA2, Sonic heroes, and shadow the hedgehog all had unique styles. Sonic heroes to me was the most interesting, aesthetically speaking. Just look at the bonus stages. Bingo stage, spooky stages, even eggman fleet and fortress stages had so much eggmanistically artistic theming.
THANK YOU THANK YOU SOMEBODY FINALLY FREAKING said it!
Always wanted a 2d sonic game with an art style similar to Rayman origins/legends
I’ve been tired of pixel art for a while tho so I much rather what we have with superstars now
I'm glad more and more people are saying this.
Very true.
The Sonic franchise needs a new look (in a stylized way).
Also, the Sonic characters needs a redesign (in a good way).
Also, good thing I'm becoming a indie game developer, and if Sega/Sonic Team doesn't know how to make a good Sonic game or doesn't know how to make a new and original IP game outside of Sonic The Hedgehog, or if Sega/Sonic Team almost made a good Sonic game, but then it has problems on release, I might make a bad-ass/edgy, aquatic 3d platformer that's a mix between Sonic The Hedgehog and Splatoon.
Best of luck to you,bro
I was more optimistic at the beginning for Superstars, but the more they show, the less interested I get. I completely agree with you - it looks pretty bland, especially those "new" level themes and the pointless Emerald powers. I love that the controls seem spot-on to the originals, but the level design and aesthetics are not doing it for me.
Visually, it looks more like Lost World and Sonic 4 instead of being a faithful recreation of the Classics. Even the badnik designs aren't consistent, they flip between the "Modern" badniks from Colours/Gens and the cutesy baby badniks from Lost World.
"They are so blaaaand and boring"
Ever listened to your own voice?
As always Sonic Team is following in Mario's footsteps many years too late. This is a case of New Super Mario Bros syndrome. Bog standard, "classic", no risks
In another universe sonic boom would’ve fixed all these issues years ago
Expression is something boom tried and kinda excelled at compared to the main series
As much as I don't like the cutscenes in Frontiers where the characters are just standing there, I'm absolutely in love with the visual flare and pazaz from the boss fights, especially the Super Sonic fights minus the last 2 (and those are getting heavily updated in The Final Horizon)
Sonic should look like the CD opening/ending + OVA + Uekawa's SA1 Graffiti-inspired aesthetic + Riders' illustrations' style and opening animation + the Japanese classic game covers' pop art for visual flair.
We make games here sir
@@break-beat-sonicohhhh ohhhhhhhh ooooohhhhhhhh
Thick outlines, brighter colours, dynamic posing. These alone would make it SO much better.
Sonic needs his signature edge back. Without it, the brand’s unique selling point is lost.
Been thinking for over a year now that Sonic should try cel-shading (or another less detailed style).
Sonic levels have to be so freaking detailed nowadays, just to look nice at a stand-still... but you're always rushing past them anyway, so you're not gonna notice most of it.
If you ditch the fancy textures and go more simplistic with cel-shading, suddenly you don't have to spend all that effort giving everything fancy textures... Suddenly you're able to stylize things easier because you don't have to worry about how realistic it looks. Suddenly you're able to do more cartoonish animations for characters and objects without them looking weird.
Frontiers was so freaking plain and boring and it just was not fun in a visual sense. I wanna see Sonic run around a more stylized and exciting world. With animations that literally bend to Sonic's speed and give you a true sense of that rush and momentum.
Regarding character models, I entirely agree. The designs are mostly fine, but they need to be reworked into models that work better with animation. The current models cannot emote at all, and there are stupid rules that make Sonic and Co look uncanny. It's crazy how realistic the world in Frontiers is, and then Sonic looks like a mascot costume. They've committed to a nearly-permanent side-mouth that looks terrible when characters talk. And the mouth itself looks painted on, with teeth that literally move based on where the mouth is. Side-mouth is fine for a lot of expressions, but don't make it permanent like that! Let his mouth freaking sit in the center sometimes!
Of course, there's other obvious stuff, like his brow being unable to move at all, the fact his eyes look weirdly un-eye-like, Hands so massive that simple gestures feel super wrong, etc. There is room to make Sonic look good, but they haven't done it... at least in-game. Sonic Prime's models aren't perfect, but they at least show a Sonic that is capable of emoting a lot better. And we need something more like that for the games.
They just gotta have this new sonic for the kids and sonic adventure 2 sonic for the preteens tbh. They turned sa2 sonic into a 4kids lame-o instead of a self sacrificing passionate dude
I feel like that’s a little unfair to superstars. It has lots of little transformations and new gameplay modes.
But I do agree, sonic graphics need to step it up.
Literally took the words out of my mouth. Sonic needs style it'd be badass to see a new sonic riders 3 with cel shaded graphics hell maybe a sonic adventure 3 with comic like 2d and 3d mixed graphics. Sonic has the potential to grow to even be better then other series but they play everything wayy too safe and its frustrating wheres the sonic flare and swagger? This needs to change Immediately
I will say this, what is holding sonic back is actually SEGA, because sonic is the face of the company , so they can't change his design or anything, they use him for everything to represent the company, the models created by marza is a curse, on one side you have some cool cgi but on the other side sonic team is trapped on what sega sees as sonic, our only reference for something creative visually today is the murder of sonic the hedgehog and that's because it's fully 2D.
Sonic being late to the party in terms of visuals is pretty standard. By the time Sonic ever gets around to doing something, Mario has already moved on to something new and interesting.
Ironic isn't it, Sonic being too slow
FINALLY SOMEONE BEEN SPEAKING MY LANGUAGE
I'm so tired of classic Sonic stuff. Are they that embarrassed of the 2000's that they don't want anything to do with it?
Yes.
@@Laekith Well they shouldn't
@lukescrew1981 why wouldn't they be after 2006? Time isn't gonna make people forgot it happened
@@sonic5993 I'm not just talking about 06. And everyone overreacted to 06
What? They literally are still updating Frontiers and all modern Sonic brand is working all fine, they are not focusing on Classic. It was made pretty clear by Iizuka that they want to develop these two branches alongside each other.
I do agree that the bland presentation is hurting Superstars reputation, but I think the biggest problem is that the Classic Sonic brand is fundamentally rooted in nostalgia and that only works for so long.
An artstyle rebrand could easily kill both birds with one stone if they're smart about it though.
I agree with everything expect the sales. Sonic mania only sold 1 at base million copies. Sonic superstars is def gonna sell more. Especially since it came out after the movies like frontiers.
Mania struggled and barely sold a million copies 💀, superstars could easily surpass it because is 3d and not pixel