Swiftwater is a Poorly Made Map
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- Опубликовано: 11 фев 2018
- Dom quickly explains all the flaws (bad design choices, things overlooked and bugs) in Team Fortress 2's Swiftwater map. (pl_swiftwater_final1)
Author notes: I was a bit harsh. Making fun of and over exaggerating small stupid things makes the big actual real problems get taken unseriously. In other words: saying 'lul red lights to signify danger' makes the interpretation of other stuff have the same tone and this isn't my intention. There's no such thing as 'lul bad optimization.' There's only 'darn-age my frames. Sadefaces.' [sic]
Also note: the map's still fun to play and plays alright. It's ok to see flaws in a thing and criticise it but still find enjoyment in it. I like and enjoy this map despite it's flaws. I just wish the flaws were fixed.
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Игры
I didn’t even know that swiftwater has a train
santiago rodriguez same
i didnt either wtf, maybe this map is worse then i thought
Same
I didn’t know swiftwater has almost no windows
"The sign over the cave looks like blood spewing from a buttcrack!"
I'll never be able to unsee that thanks.
no problem
Why nobody talk here
@Disgusting_Developer soldier gaming
Whomobile!1!
@@s4videos I can't see it, am lucky
Also, storing flammables under a staircase violates fire code.
I see that the Pyro designed their own map and got it in game.
I think the box thing just fits TF2s style.
Agreed. TF2's lore is pretty insane, so I think this kinda thing fits the game's universe pretty well.
@@randomcatdude bruh I didn't even remember this video existed. I got the notification of your reply and had no idea what was going on.
It's funny what things are lost to time.
@@hewhomustnotbenamed5912 lol you're right about the comment though c:
@@hewhomustnotbenamed5912 hi, just here to remind you this video existed
@@davelawandra2286 this is my curse.
I guess you can say that it was made "swiftly".
Ba dum tssss
redmanstone bruh
Though I agree with all of your points, I disagree with the title of the video. A lot of people agree that Swiftwater plays well, and besides the vertical shutter door texture issue and the rotating arrow sign, it's clearly designed well for gameplay. Maybe a more fitting title would have been poorly detailed, or even unfinished.
I agree, 'Poorly Made' is rather suggestive that the video was a critique of its gameplay, and perhaps how unoptimised he felt it was
Halfway through, I even felt as though this was some sort of April Fools video when I reflected on how trivial some of the points raised regarding the logic of the props (to his credit, his observation of crates below a staircase did make me crack a smile)
Perhaps it should have been titled 'Poorly Designed' or something along the lines of its aesthetics to prevent confusion as I'm quite sure this is the reason for the Like : Dislike ratio as nearing the end, many would have realised that this video isn't an April Fools joke
none of his points matter at all
I also think the title needs to grab your attention more, it doesn’t excuse it but I’m certain he knows a lot of these problems don’t effect gameplay that much. Again it doesn’t excuse it, I just know the struggles that come with trying to make authentic titles vs ones that’ll actually grab people.
I disagree with your opinion
One of the worst optimized maps. You can get dozens of less fps here
Watching this video genuinely improved my mapmaking abilities. I now ask myself questions like "why is this here" or "what is this place used for" when decorating and restructuring my levels. They're now coherent and mostly logical places, as opposed to boxy killing rooms with arbitrary theming. Thanks!
huh actually thought this would be a gameplay complaint video.
boy do I have a lot of shit to complain about it with that.
elronman map long
The Last Red Spawn only has one spawn gate, it makes it easy for spawn camping.
@@MrDuck-po3wy Honestly all the other points have worse spawn camping issues.
If blu manages to spawn camp that area they've already won. However its ludicrously easy to get ambushed from above with nearly every single other spawn.
Doubly with how the map seems to make everything a free flank route for blu, you have no clue where they'd reliably come from. Not only does that shit make defending a bitch for red, it ironically splits up blue and makes their pushes a lot weaker.
I heard from, I don't know who, that this map was intended to be balanced for highlander, and it feels like it.
Doesn't feel like it was intended for casual play or fun in general.
@@elronman there's this upper stairs area and one soldier can camp the last spawn by himself, and that place is easy to go through because there's no gate blocking any Blu players to early advance to the last point, so mostly in Asian servers Blu engineers can setup in last points without any problems.
@@MrDuck-po3wy Worried why you specified Asian servers.
to be honest I've never seen that train on swiftwater like ever!
Me too. Just found out
One good thing about this map is “heavy is dead”
Snipers can see EVERY spawndoor from some positions.
I hate Snipers on Payload already so yeah.
Yes, in the first BLU spawn, depending of where you spawn, a sniper can shoot you
I... Wouldn't be shocked if the mapmaker had a copy of swiftwater with most of these issues fixed, but Valve won't push it out the door for some obtuse reason.
i don't think so. snakewater got some updates
@@JanKowalski-mx5zm This exact situation happened to cp_steel this summer. The creator gave Valve a new version of steel with updates, and then they gave Valve a version with even more updates, for for some reason Valve decided to add the first version that the creator sent them.
About the mine being in a random place, that's actually normal for the tf2 world. On the other maps, most of the bizarre architecture makes sense. Decretive doors line up. Decorative shutters are not used on the same map as shutters that act as doors. You don't need to disassemble a staircase to get to creates. Walls make sense. The other maps have their oddities, but they make sense for a world where people rocket jumped to the 2nd floor for decades, where two companies secretly control the world and have mercenaries battle with their bases within 15 meters of each other or inside the same building, and where Australians became buff due to metal exposure.
the first few points really throws off guard and draws you as a nitpicker like holy shit who in the world even sees the train in the tunnel, nobody fucking looks over there
actually sorry, only one point makes your statement validated - the fog and skybox not working together
The worst thing is the layout
When you get 2 points in (trying to cap the 3rd) the map becomes super open with like 5 or 6 different paths to the 3rd point. This splits up blu team and makes it super hard for them to push together
Then coordinate your team lel.
@@shitlordflytrap1078 Yeah I'll just coordinate 11 strangers you dark creature
I always found something just off about this map... Regardless of how well it played.
All I know about swiftwater is that the heavy has died there
"There's no Team Fortress 2 map that's more unrefined"
Try Thundermounatin, Stage 3.
Glad i'm not the only one who fucking hates that stage. Like, I like Thundermountain's stage 1, and I can make some use of the fun out of stage 2, but stage 3? Nah. It's so bad that I don't play Thundermountain because of it.
"more unrefined" my ass lmao what about Wutville?
@@withaust This was written before Wutville was added.
2:26
Welp, now it's gonna be really weird whenever I look at that sign again.
5:06 probably a shipping door for trucks to back into.
Yeah, maybe a monster truck
try squeezing a truck through that cramped space, a building is only a few meters in front of the door, you'd need to be an expert driver to get the trailer to line up
I like how you use ambient occlusion
I didn't even know there was a train.
Never forget that heavy is dead took place in swiftwater
I thought he was gonna talk about gameplay
Probably the thing I hate the most is RED's resupply cabinet. When I play engie, I always have to run more back on setup while if there was multiple cabinets it would have been much quicker and easier. I seriously hate it
I just use the uncle dane loadout script
I would like to see the map revamped and refurbished, just to see what it would be like if it were optimized and made sense.
But man, you didn't talk about playability
The train noise by DEFAULT plays every single time it is spawned
The crates under the staircase looks so good though 😂
At least Heavy Is Dead happened on this map
One thing about the sun, if that problem exists in Valve maps I think he gets a pass.
Thx yt algorithm for finally putting this video in my feed.
Also, "There is no other Team Fortress map that's out there that is more unrefined.", is a comment that aged like milk.
Contrary to what people said, I don't think the things Dom points out are nitpicks. Sure, they're minor issues, but those issues pile up on top of each other. 1-2 clipping textures, that's fine. But 20, 50, 100? Then you can't ignore it anymore.
The points he makes are also valid. Optimization is important, but things like the shutters don't utilize it, and the fact that a ton of props are rendered despite you not being able to see them is horrible. The train only makes a noise once, why? That's just an oversight.
Same goes for the realism, like doors leading nowhere, the grain thing being present on a water bottling plant, the boxes under the stairs...all of these could have really easily been avoided.
And all those shutters on windows that don't open despite the shutters on the windows in spawn opening, that goes against one of the things Valve games stand for, namely easily recognizable patterns. If you can pick up a box once, you should ALWAYS be able to do it, otherwise it just leads to confusion.
The map overall looks REALLY blocky, too. It's like an early TF2 map, like Dustbowl or Goldrush. There's barely any details on some buildings whatsoever. Even the insides of some buildings (like at 4:50) are just...empty. There's nothing there. It feels like a Hunt Down The Freeman map.
It's not an awful map by any means, I actually love it, almost as much as Badwater, but it definitely needs more refinement.
Red spawn is a Dirty Toilet
Realism, A Hunt Down The Freeman map. Come on, nothing can be that terrible. Honestly my favorite old school highlander map. Nice to see Valve add it.
Yes, the map does have actual issues such as the places where it could be a little more optimized but none of the issues actually make the map worse to play or less enjoyable during play. These are all inconsequential details which, by definition, makes this nitpicking.
I was eventually playing on borneo, from blue spawn to the left path theres this sorta building with the medikit and ammo pack inside, its built over a wooden plank base, i noticed rockets can go through and inside the base.
And on badwater after second point theres this platform with a pills and ammo box with a wall filled with planks at the left, were if a rocket explodes it does damage to a side of the plank rather than the whole wall as a plane surface.
The whole rail section is actually just the rail as solid, the wood does not posses the possesion of wood polygon hitboxes ¿?
Its beautiful to have well made maps but this is as well a FPS were the functionality of the polygons around matters in the combat.
No, this is nitpicking. As a mapper myself, I would not have designed it in this way, but they do not negatively impact the map. It's also no more "blocky" than any map other than perhaps Hydro - and what you say about all the issues adding up ("overlapping textures" as an example) is laughable when the map you compare it to, Dustbowl, actually does have overlapping brushes and visible gaps in the map where you can see the sky. This truly just feels like an attempt to flex one's knowledge of TF2 maps than true criticisms, especially with the hyperbolic title.
I've looked at the map in blender using a bsp importer. There is a random trigger_push high over the payload track near the car garage. Lol
Once it got to the doors not even being connected then I lost all hope in this map
Do you play TF2 competetively btw? I saw your name (dom) in some comp gameplay video recently
It was not me.
S4... If you saw Swiftwater's issues then; Wutville is that but x10 worse.
It feels like i'm playing a trade map rebranded as a payload map and it's *laggy*
It's a Surreal experience~
If you are playing the map you don't notice anything of that
I didn't even know there was a train
This map is one of my top 3 maps along with upward#1 swiftwater#2 and bad water#3
Swiftwater is a fun map, but it always had a sense of jank that I couldn't put my finger on until now.
Just letting you know that it says Team Fortres instead of Team Fortress in the description.
This is one of those things that separates descriptions that are made with love and care from those that are plopped out; attention to detail. It’s so small and stupid and insignificant, but it really annoys me.
wait there is a train on swiftwater?
Despite this maps problems, I still like to play on it.
Nice video Dom!
maybe next you can do one on mercenary park made by valve?
I have a few issues with that map.
Same here. 1st and 2nd points are ok, but the final point is just a meat grinder.
I wouldn't call it poorly made, not by a long shot. Most of the issues brought up are just nitpicks on the detailing and complaints about the little things nobody notices when playing the map. The shutter textures and optimization are bad, but not to the point where I'd call it poorly made.
Terrible lag is not a minor problem. Not to mention the layout is confusing as hell.
Source does not work that way, server and client side, bad map make bad gameplay and you feel it
Cooper I've never noticed lag at all playing this map. Casual or community server it's always run fine for me.
RGBIFY, if it doesn't happen to you it doesn't mean it doesn't happen to anyone.
Cooper then get a pc that can run tf2 at more than 30 FPS.
Reminds me of 3kliksphilip complaining about Cobblestone on CS:GO after a few patches of it being out, unlucko.
Honestly, I don't notice a lot of these details (or there that of). I'm typically too busy getting pummeled.
The tunnel entrance and exit, Red spawn infront of a tower after the thigh corridor, last point being a sentry nest and i see new players not finding the path that leads above last point because its hidden from the view, Red spawn's door system is just a Dirty Toilet, Dust bowl as well is disgusting
I think that while some of these are valid points, you cant really pull someone up on things being unrealistic (ie, boxes under stairs or doors leading to drop-offs) since tf2 maps are primarily focused on gameplay and very rarely represent spaces that could function in real life, the detail simply serves as a coating to the gameplay to direct players' focus and to give context to the objectives being contested over. I can guarantee you that while some maps do it better, none are complete without their own flaws and its something players have just come to accept.
I do not disagree however that this map has its flaws, which I think are all mostly due to the map being created with the competitive audience in mind. The sub-par detailing and seeming lack of attention to smaller details illustrate this lack of polish and I believe that if it hadn't been for Valve's push to try to make Team Fortress 2 a more competitive game, we would have never seen Swiftwater officially included in the game. While I understand Valve's intention here I think the map requires a great deal more polish to be on par with most of the other official maps, and the gameplay being centered around a competitive environment means that (at least in my opinion) it would need some tweaks to make it more suitable for a casual environment.
And the reverse can be said about some community-made maps, where aesthetic takes the forefront over the gameplay. With that being said, I honestly like you explanation more than this half-baked video. Like this clickbait video, the title could be changed to be better suit it. "Swiftwater Poor Design Choices" or "Swiftwater Missed Potential". These titles still geared toward the topic but not as misleading as his.
I have 50 map stamps for Swiftwater. I got the the Philateler the next day.
About the first thing you said... Wouldn't it be more of an issue if things _weren't_ rendered on the other side of the window shutters when closed? Keep in mind that there are holes in those shutters, allowing you to peek in or out even if they're closed, and seeing a lack of things would probably be worse than how it is now.
(Note that I don't quite remember if the holes are also able to be seen through from the outside, but you can definitely see through them from the inside.)
The video was informative but your delivery is incredibly lacking. You're trying to force humor where there is none. You'd be better off just stating facts.
Yeah he sounds almost like a brat. I don’t think it’s accidental.
The mine is there so they can make mineral water, duh
As a medic player I hate this map especially the first point as offense Sometimes I get pushed off onto that stupid trench and unless i'm using quick fix the only way to get out is in the enemy territory
i understood teh games done quick refrrence :D
The lighting problems in the 3d skybox can't be fixed. The reasons shadows can't be cast on or cast by the 3d skybox is because it exists separate from the play area and is projected visually around the playspace. The 3d projection doesn't interact with lighting.
I have a headcannon for why swift water is so weird.
It’s a shell company. It has never legitimately operated.
5:07 "Et pourquoi y a une porte au plafond?"
Secretely hoping another French will pass by and get the joke
You missed the largest flaw of the map:
The sign overlays are straight outta the 2009 custom map pit this whole thing came from
Literarly unplayable
Well as long you don't have a sniper it is a good map gameplay wise, but again 4/5of maps are like this cuz no one knows how to design around this mf without screwing other classes over or make it chokepoint golor
I liked this map only because it's not licated in the badlands.
Eh the gameplay is still top notch still some small improvements we could use
Some of these are nitpicks. But some of these are genuine.
“no other map is as unrefined”
frontier?
that map is objectively bad, its so poorly dated and even for its time had incredible flaws
Heavy is dead
uhg nitpicking
Red spawn is a confusing mess
i like swiftwater, the grass is pretty :3
u prank me ^^
Would have been cool if you pointed out the bad gameplay of the map
I agree with all of these, but the title is misleading in a way, I'm not saying it doesn't make sense, but instead of "Poorly made" it really looks like its "Poorly detailed" instead. Of course, this video is about your opinion so, maybe in your eyes it's "Poorly made" but in the video it just looks like your pointing out detail flaws.
What??? Swift is my favorite map.
1:30 yeah and also - frames cuz 3d!
I don't notice most of these, I love me some nitpicks. Literally unplayable.
I get to put this video at 1k likes pog
you should do more maps xD
Any suggestions on which maps to choose? I can't think of any with a lot of problems.
s4videos Maybe Degroot Keep, Mercenery Park... these arent so good imo, they should get fixed here and there
s4videos Or Steel! :D
cp_orange_x3
@@ddest1nyy DeGroot Keep and Mercenary Park are both incredibly well optimized and detailed. Mercenary Park may have gameplay flaws, but DeGroot Keep is absolutely perfect for Medieval Mode.
Ok
NA Competitive players: "I think its just neat."
Funny vid and that's why that map feels different from everyother map, I kinda like it.
This is just nitpicking
A poorly designed maps in tf2 are about gameplay mostly the maps visuals just have to look decent enough for it to be playable and look like they belong in universe.
Unless it’s Wutville… we don’t talk about wutville
It is not a bad map, there are just many design flaws, but it still plays good
Its still a fun map to play on
i have nowhere near as much experience as the swiftwater devs and even i can make a train that works🤪
I'm gonna be honest, Swiftwater is my all-time Favorite TF2 map.
This is my favorite payload map
even if you fixed these issues the map would still be ugly as shit, there is literally no art direction to it
...I got that gdq joke
I always felt like this map felt ameteurish visually, but could never quite explain it.
I'm not going to take any of this that seriously as it doesn't affect gameplay in any way and it's a 10 year old game.
Also, I'm sorry but optimization isn't a massive deal with TF2 as you can run it perfectly fine with possibly the worst graphics card out there, and if you have trouble running TF2 then that's your own problem for owning such an outdated PC.
I mean, it actually is an issue as TF2's CPU issues mean it runs worse than it should on many systems that should be able to run more demanding games, but more than that: a game shouldn't rely on powerful hardware to outweigh its poor optimization.
Anyway, the example in this video is hyperbolic because you're right, this area of the map doesn't cause frame issues.
@@npc_blob1609 A example of the area of a map not affecting frames is Enclosure it's the biggest map by walkable area in the game, yet when I ran TF2 on my laptop to see if I could run it, frame drops wouldn't occur except where there were a lot of particles, which in that case Source has a bad history with particles performance wise
No final frontier is the worst one
Construction workers being lazy is a very TF2 thing tbh
I always felt Swiftwater was.. Off... But I didn't quite realize why.
*mercenary park joins the chat*
It seems to be rushed. With a little bit more work it would be perfection.
It was made for a competitive audience. It was absolutely not rushed.
Do you know how many iterations was made for UGC? It was not rushed
My science teacher made this map and valve bought it from him!
Like so he can see
@Meatball its not a joke, i have the same science teacher he actually did make the map
@Meatball what proof do you want?
@Meatball ok, dude, why would i lie about this.
@Meatball ok i dont know if valve bought the map from him, all i know is that he made the map
I might make a pro version of this...
This my favourite map because its so balanced and there is no op sentry spots and i love it and the people qho play swiftwater are the most chill and everyone is playing the objective
I've never played TF2 but I know the maker of Swiftwater in real life and I wanted to thank you for this comment.
aka: heavy is dead