Vocational Training in Germany | Would it FAIL in the USA?
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- Опубликовано: 1 июн 2024
- In 2017, 1.3 million students in Germany enrolled in vocational training, compared with only 190,000 in the U.S. So how does Germany's Dual VET system create such a trade job empire? And would it work in the USA?
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👉Quick Jump to Your Favorite Topic:
00:00 Intro
02:01 Germany's Education System Promotes Trade Jobs
04:23 America's Education System favors University
08:12 Germany's Dual VET Program Explained (Dual Vocational Education and Training)
11:37 America's Job Training Crisis
16:20 Vocational Education Stereotypes in the USA
20:55 Breaking the Stigma of Trade Jobs in America
23:54 Jack's House Tour
Episode 45 | #education #vocationaltraining and #tradejobs in Freiburg im Breisgau, Germany | Filmed February 24th, 2022
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I came to Germany from the states in the 90s to study (because HEY! free tuition!) with the ultimate goal of working in the event industry. I found out that my skill-set was much better suited to vocational training, so I switched from the Uni to an apprenticeship and certified after two and a half years (I as well opted to shorten my apprenticeship) as an electrician. Fast foward - I did my Meister in Event Lighting (Meister der Veranstaltungstechnik) and now work as Technical Director in a civic hall, where I have my own apprentices. Not bad for a "college drop-out"!
Great success story. But to be fair having a Meister in a trade job sector is the top peak of that trade job and the needed effort to get it is comparable to get a bachelor or master degree at the university.
Wow very cool! Nice job, thank you for sharing your story.
Do you know that there is a town between Cologne and Bonn that‘s named after you -or maybe the other way round 😊.
@@spitymaeh not quite, it just looks as much as it usually is done while working full time. So true, it is an achievement. But with that you are qualified to train apprentices yourself and depending on the trade, you are allowed to run a businesss. For many trades there is what is called the "Meisterpflicht", which means there has to be a Meister in the company to run it. A college or university degree would not help much here. In some trades a "Techniker" would be sufficient as well. The Techniker would be a journeyman with additional theoretical training for this trade as you would find it otherwise in college or university, but without some of the more basic "how to run a business" stuff that is involved with a Meister (like all the bookkeeping and regulatory stuff not related to the trade)
@@spitymaeh not quite. The Meister is a big thing. In the Meisterschule you also learn to run a business at a basic level and its "on the same level" as the batchler. But there is also the Betriebswirt for which you need a Meister, a staatlichgeprüfter Techniker or an Fachwirt (which are all "on the same level")
I think the biggest difference between the US and Germany is the way they look at the students themselves. In the USA, the student is a customer to whom educational institutions sell the product "education" dearly. In Germany, the student is an investment in the future. The state and business put money into their hands to give students the opportunity to become well-paid workers and taxpayers.
Transferring the German system to the USA one-to-one would be very difficult. Getting Americans to do things that are quintessentially un-American isn't even the biggest problem. You would have to get all American states to set educational standards together and for the whole USA. You would have to get American business to put money and people into the program, and you would have to strengthen American unions. Have fun!😱
actually the interesting part about why the dual vocational training works so well in Germany is that it is NOT run by the Government.
IHK and HWK are “körperschaften öffentlichen Rechts“, so the framework for their existence is in the law but they are actually run by the companies themselves.
so it’s not so much about getting all states on board but getting ALL business into a self governing body with (mandatory contributions, no chance to opt out) that then is bestowed with the authority by the federal governments to set these education standards and curriculums. the IHK are a special German institution, often older than the German Nation State (1871) and it will be very hard to imitate something that evolved over more than a century.
IHK and HWK define the curriculum and tests for the vocational training according to the needs of their member businesses and not some slow and artrocious government body. this is what makes the system so successful and makes the graduates of these programs so much sought after. and that in turn creates the lowest youth unemployment rate at least in Europe, maybe worldwide.9
Yeah we don't think that will ever happen during our lives.
As for your first statement, you are absolutely right. That's a great way of putting it.
@@TypeAshton Business people summarized as IHK and HWK as "corporations under public law" should overwhelm most Americans even as an idea. American businessmen would probably ask, what next? Are we now proclaiming the People's Republic of America?
@@ralfweissenborn734 depending on where you are in the US this might very well happen, I agree :-). there is no simple copy and paste.
But I actually think the main detriment to a good vocational training system (is specifically in the „classical“ technical fields) is that those are just not aspirational jobs in general in the US. It’s finance/business/marketing, medicine and maybe a bit high tech/IT that draws the top talent in the US across all levels of theoretical and practical ability. In Germany it’s still very much mechanical and electrical engineering at uni level and the corresponding trades / crafts at the vocational level. you can see that when you look at the list of the most favorite employees. it’s mostly engineering related (automotive, chemical). you will see many of the biggest and most influential and successful German companies are run by engineers. so „classical“ (mech and EE) technology / engineering just draws the best and brightest in Germany which is then reflected in the global success of German companies in those fields.
and the preference of the US elite(-graduates) is also reflected in the US performance in those fields (banking/ finance, medical research …), service/ consulting and entertainment.
Definately!
A big problem in North America is how apprentices go through their apprenticeship. I am from Germany, had my electrical 3 1/2 year apprenticeship and worked until the age of 29 as a journeyman in Germany. We then immigrated to Canada. Here I was on a fast track... very much thanks to my german education in my apprenticeship and the way it has been done. After 2 years foreman/supervisor, another 3 years later Project Manager for huge projects. In my talks with canadian apprentices, and I think the US system is very similar, I learned how it is structured. You accumulate hours on the job and have your x-weeks of school block for each apprentice year (which is a problem in itself, since it is one theory-learning-block and not mixed with the onsite experience in a weekly fashion of that apprentice year). A lot of North American-apprentices take their sweet time because they are focusing on the mighty dollar and hours and delay the school blocks. I met some third year apprentices that were third years for 4 years already. Because they like the money of the third year salary but do not want to take on the responsibilities of a journeyman. You cannot delay your apprenticeship like that in Germany. It is one year after the other... no delaying (except if you are sick or similar life events and then there are some exceptions. But in general a 3 1/2 year apprenticeship takes that time exactly (if finals are passed. If not, 1/2 year gets added until you are eligible for the next exam.) Now in regards to the North American quality of electrical apprenticeship... lets say it was lacking a lot of detail and I saw the school-blocks. In Germany I even had antenna networking, Programmable Logic Controlling and much more in my apprenticeship as an electrician. So vast mix of the whole field on top of the purely electrical education. And don't even get me started on how they teach fault finding (ground fault, shorts, etc.) in North America. Most apprentices I had on my sites lacked the education to visualize the electrical circuit in their mind to find the fault... and it is not their fault. It is the fault of their employer and schools. They always thanked me loads for taking the time for explaining how to figure it out. Which was really sad, since that should be normal in your apprenticeship.
Ich denke Ihr Punkt mit dem Respekt vor der Leistung jedes Arbeitenden und seiner Ausbildung ist von extremer Wichtigkeit. Ich selbst bin promovierter Mathematiker, mein Sohn hat nach dem Abitur "Elektriker "gelernt. Wir haben zeitweise in der gleichen Firma gearbeitet; er im technischen Kundendienst, ich in Vertrieb und Marketing. Seine Leistung wurde so anerkannt, dass man ihn kurz nach Ende seiner Ausbildung zur "Sammlung von Erfahrungen" ins Ausland geschickt hat. Ich bin mächtig solz darauf, was er geschafft hat und ziehe den Hut vor seiner Leistung.
Actually, when you've finished your apprenticeship and trade school in Germany, after a few years, sometimes even directly after successfully finishing it, you can attend another year of vocational training (mostly about one year) and get the title of a Master, Technician, Business Economist, or something like that of your trade and which is officially regarded as the same educational level as a university's Bachelor degree - and provides you the permit to further educate yourself at an university.
To be honest the "Meister" in something is more than a batchelor degree....more comparable of a master degree...
@@rapsack7058 According to „Deutschen Qualifikationsrahmen“ (DQR) the Meister and Bachelor are at level 6. Master is level 7 and PHD is level 8.
@@MartinMeise
Yea i know, but you better look who got paid how much money in the industry and than you will see that bachelor is way behind of a "Meister" who is not realy behind of a master degree...
@@rapsack7058 How much money you earn depends less on what educational qualifications you have and more on the entrepreneurial risk you take yourself. If you have a high level of responsibility with a bachelor's degree in a business enterprise, you can certainly earn more than a master. But there are also master craftsmen who are production managers in a large industrial company and earn significantly more than most academics with a doctorate.
@@MartinMeise
partialy true. BUT there are some standards in the industry and bigger companies. Those standards show how much actualy the "Meister" is valued. And the value a "Meister" higher than a bachelor.
Your argument even it is treu is not fitting...
As longer you are in a company it depends less and less what degree you have and more at your personal skills you show...
Germany also provides something that is called "the 3rd education track". (brace yourself, this gets messy). I have been first to "Hauptschule", cause my Mom didnt care fore the selection process in the first place. However, at the end of the Hauptschule I wanted to go on to Realschule. That is possible and its called "the special 10th grade". This was even a specialized Economic School "Wirtschaftsschule" that is placed on the level of a Realschule. After successfully finishing it, I did an apprentice ship in a Bank. Cause i have been to a Wirtschaftsschule I was even considered like someone who had Abitur from the Gymansium cause my economic knowledge was so enhanced compared to the general Realschule. For the record, my math was very bad cause of that, cause i only had financial math and bookkeeping. Well, I finished the apprenticeship and then the 3rd education track was open to me. There is something called "Berufsoberschule" (vocational highschool). You could do there the 12th and 13th grade. (meaning the apprenticeship counted as the 11th grade). With the 12th grade, which i did, you have a specialized titel to go to university of applied sciences. With the 13th grade and a 2nd foreign language you can have the general Abitur and study even medicine ... So I did the 12th grade cause i knew I wanted to do "informationsystems and management" (Wirtschaftsinformatik), which is a mix of business and IT. At the time it was only available at the university of applied sciences (or the military which i ruled out). So I went from the lowest possible school to a university degree with a bachelor. I could have done a master as well, but started work instead. Going from a bank apprentice to work in marketing IT nowadays. I had all chances even afterwards. I took it. to be fair I dont know if many people do this route. but the German government made it possible. probably the best thing they did in a minute.
I know a few people with similar educational background. My sister went to Hauptschule, did an apprenticeship, worked for a year, went back to school for the Fachabitur, and then went on to study Psychology (at a Fachhochschule, because she decided not to do the general Abitur) and now has a Master. And I know people with a PhD who initially went to Hauptschule.
Though I do think it is a bit sad that the educational system focuses more and more on getting people to University. While I think it is great you can get an Abitur (with more work) if you weren't the best student in 4th grade, it feels like vocational training is "worth" less, and a lot of people feel they (or their children) have to go to University to be successful in life.
@@odsmey i know what you mean. There is no way around to say that the levels of those schools reflect statistically the „bell curve“ and provide provide either a minimum of education or are prepping you for an academical education. However, it is not to be equal with lower intelligence in general. To start a trade job it is not necessary to study in the first place. Meaning why should you stay longer in school than needed? Trade jobs actually had long before the university a bachelor (geselle) and master (meister) system. Once you did your apprenticeship you are usually considered a bachelor (German meaning). But you can do your master which would allow you to open a company in the field. (It was loosened a bit i think). This means there should be a quality level as well for carpenter, brick layer, painter companies. In essences it looks like hauptschule is for the lower end of the bell curve IQ. It could even be that the majority is not qualified. But it is also a coincidence that it is the entry point for a trade job career that could end up in a master as well. Compared to full time academic students its even more challenging. Not nearly as many become a master as at the university.
I went more or less the same path more than 40 years ago (at this time there were not so many opportunities to interchange between schools like today). I am now close to retirement and can say that I had a good career in one of the big 5 companies in Germany. I can say the start was a bit difficult and I started some years later than the guys who went to Gymnasium but having a vocational training helped me a lot during my work as engineer because I could foresee problems others with only theoretical training couldn't see. This helped me to be promoted faster than the others so that at the end I could compensate for the late start. I am writing this to encourage people who had a not so good start in their life that luckily we have a system that is open for such changes.
@@habi0187 Thanks much for this comment, I was about to write the same. Its a big and welcomed difference (by companies) to not just get somone with the "theoretical" knowledge about how something is expected to work (ideally) but also having some kind of knowledge about what doesn't work due to other influences / own work experience.
I also went to Hauptschule, then Werkrealschule, then Wirtschaftsgymnasium and then I started Uni, decided to drop out and went on a vocational path and if I had the opportunity to do this in a different way, I would do it the same way.
Since 9 years I am part of the workforce and pretty happy whith where I am.
Small note: It's ABITUR (without the 'R' between 'A' and 'B) from the Latin word "abire" which means "to go away", "to leave" or similar.
You are truly to be congratulated on your selection of professional craftsmen. The experience I made over the last year was somewhat mixed with the bottom line being that many young people simply don't have passion for their job and thus don't really care how they do things. Speaking with several of the owners of those businesses, they have real challenges finding good apprentices, let alone keeping them in the company as serving an apprenticeship seems to go out of fashion these days. Needless to say, attending a university is not for everyone either, but the changes in the school system have made it easier over the years to at least have the formal qualification for that - which still doesn't turn lower-achieving students into higher-achieving ones. In other words: A low performance today will falsely allow you to still go on to university, reducing the number of apprentices and increasing the number of inapt students. Not sure how that makes sense ...
Ah yeah sorry about that. I got my words for Arbeit and Abitur mixed up there.
I'm from Slovenia and I studied Turism in a vocational highschool. It was great:) A lot less maths and we learned three languages. You really can study anything, not just how to be a plumber or a carpenter. You can even study something like flower arrangment or being a chef or a waiter. It's great and you can still change your mind and go to university if you want.
Couple of things I can contribute to this topic from a german perspective:
- The "stigma" of not achieving your Abitur and going to University is actually growing in Germany too. We actually have a problem with to many people trying to go to Gymnasium and then the university, regardless of their actual "intellectual capacity" or skill in trade job fields. Our Handelskammern are complainig for years that they get less and less trainees each year.
- While it is possible to change ways from university to vocational training and the other way around there is still a stigma attached to it. Mainly the "downgrade". Maybe mainly among the HR people or it's just a german (work) culture thing, but you tend to be looked at strange it you don't finish what you started. I made my Abitur, went to University, noticed that it wasn't really for me after 1 1/2 years and started to apply for my Ausbildung. One of the biggest problems, all the HR people actually had in my job interviews, was mostly this "stain" on my résumé.
- While it is correct that many people stay with their training company in the long term, there is also the other side of the coin: The companies and colleagues sometimes keep treating people as if they're still trainees even after they finished their training. One of the most heard advices I got while beeing a trainee was basically "finish your training, then change the company and start fresh". Can't say it was wrong either, because exatly that happened to me. After I changed the company the problem immediately vanished in the new company because everybody there just knew I had the same Ausbildung as them, so I should know what I was doing and was their equal. Have been working there ever since.
very true all that!
Depending on the size of the company, you are often transferred to another branch after completing your vocational training.
It doesn't just seem to be due to the "trend" of sending children to Gymnasium, but also a lack of basic school education and changing requirements in the training professions.
40 years ago, trainees in my commercial profession were 80% junior high school students and 20% high school students. Today there are 10% junior high school students and 90% high school graduates. (The requirements and mandatory additional certificates, which are now required in my job, require a different basic training) .
My partner has the "master's degree" in his job and also takes exams. So the number of apprentices who have failed every exam in the last 10 years is frightening. In the past maybe 1 or 2 failed the journeyman's examination, today it's an average of 10 to 12.
Very interesting, thank you for sharing this perspective!
Nah. Companies are complaining that students from the Handelskammer are lazy and stupid and so they ask for A-levels when for entry-level jobs that 20 years ago a 9-year Hauptschule "degree" would have been enough. So with less and less jobs that are open to the standard "Ausbildung" parents and kids alike aim for higher education. And after they finally got it (4 years later) they ask themselves why shouldn't I work a badly paid entry level job when now university is open to me.
One problem with German education system is the lack of large numbers of good software engineers/programmers. I think that there must be a new kind of education for this type of profession. In the United States we force a lot of Science and math on students who may not "get it", but are still fine software programmers/ software engineers.
I know a lot of my fellow Germans see the distinction between the Gymnasium, Real- and Haupt-/Mittelschule in the intellectual achievements of the students or their potential for that.
I think however that this is a real problem, and we should put more emphasis on calling them schools for different types of skillsets.
Not sure, if i could make my message clear so let's give an example:
A lot of Germans think the intelligence of a child is the metric after which you should choose the secondary education.
But as you can guess no mom or dad would like to admit that their child is less intelligent than other children, so they all try to send their kids to the Gymnasium. This can result in severe pressure in children.
If, however, you said that the schools are for different skill sets, nobody would need to be ashamed. A highly skilled craftsman isn't held in less regard than a skilled administrative worker or an engineer.
I agree that there is some perception of ranks of the tracks, but I have to say that the regard in Germany for Skilled trades is far far higher than in the USA. And while 60 years ago the USA had more opportunity for children of skilled trades workers to go to University, that has now flipped and there is much more educational and income mobility in Germany than in the USA.
I know this is an old comment, but I had to comment. Not dividing kids isn't being looked down upon by the US. It's looked as an opportunity to teach kids empathy and acceptance towards people who aren't like them. Growing up I had classmates who had down syndrome, severe intellectual disability, autism, dwarfism, etc. My school is the most accepting people I have met. They don't tease adults who aren't like them. It's been a proven fact that schools who don't have a lot of different students those students were less accepting of people who weren't like them.
*Edit just because kids who aren't up to par to the smarter kids it doesn't mean the smarter kids aren't challenged enough. Once you're 12 you start changing classes. With this you have the really really smart classes, the average classes, and then classes where kids can't keep up with average classes. Kids are divided up foe math, science, history, foreign language class, and English/literature. Classes like physical education, health, band, home economics, shop, art, computers, theater, etc the kids aren't separated.
The big problem with this division in the school system is that it also tends to follow cultural direction. Fewer people of non German ethnical background enter Gymnasium.
@@andrewwedman3953 That is true. Unfortunately parental income is another important factor in this. But the problems are well documented and schools and government are trying things to make access more equally available.
But again - it is important to see that the different branches should not be seen as different quality levels of education. Mittelschulen and Realschulen simply cater to students with talents and abilities different from students who are successful at a Gymnasium. Those qualifications and talents are no less valuable for our society as we see in these days, where we face a lack of qualified workers in some areas, while university-graduates have a hard time finding a job.
Your channel has been crucial in my decision to move my family from America to Germany, and I'm sure it will continue to be a great resource for me. I am sad that my country has ended up where it is, in just a couple of generations, but I worry for my kids futures.
I think we are going to start planning our move..
When I grew up in germany the mindset was that if you - as a student - had an "academic mind" meaning being good at learning and memorizing, you should go to the gymnasium to persue an academic career. But if you were good with your hands building things and being better with "hands on" you should persue a vocational training. I was always the academic mind so I went to university and did a phd.
Because I am bad with "hands on" work I could not teach my son but we were open for him to go on to choose a different path. But he realized early that persuing a vocational training meant to start working for real so he went on the academic path as well.
The tendancy towards college or univerity exists in germany as well as a university education still promises a better paid 8-16 job with no dirty hands. The situation might be better than in the U.S. but the problems are there as well.
I went the "traditional" way first, Gymnasium, Uni (to become a teacher). Crunched some numbers and decided that the money I would be earning as a teacher would not be worth spending so much time at uni so I dropped out, did vocational training and Meister in less time than uni would have taken me. And the salary and job chances are better. Handwerk hat goldenen Boden.
welches handwerk?
@@maonyksmohc9574 Hörakustik
On the flip-side, as a consumer, in Germany you have good quality assurance that anybody who's got a registered trade buisiness has a certain level of expertise. In the UK, which has a model more like the US with no registration or standartisation for many jobs the variation in training, knowledge and expertise is staggering and very frustrating as a consumer.
There are also a lot of students that apply for an apprenticeship with Abitur. I did this as well, and am a Paramedic just three years later.
It's not just Germany, it is an alemannic thing. Austria and Switzerland have very similar systems. And one important point to make: the vocational trainings involve also a large number of white collar jobs, many of them with specialized continued learning tracks. If the US were to reinvest into its vocational training, two of the biggest possible mistakes would be to neglect jobs like accounting, and to not involve trade unions, chambers and companies.
I did not read all comments and I am also not fully through your video yet, but I believe in part 2 you forgot to mention one significant benefit of vocational training / apprenticeships, that will likely blow many Americans' minds:
Not only are vocational schools basically free apprentices are paid by the company they train at. (Obviously) not a full salary, but apprentice compensation is roundabout 50% of the entry salary of a fully trained employee. Oh, and by the way, with the same full benefits (health insurance, vacation days, etc.).
Hallo Ashton, ein tolles Thema, und nicht einfach! Bezüglich den hohen College- und Uni-Kosten in den US habe ich folgende Beobachtung gemacht:
Als ehemaliger Angestellter einer US-Firma hatte ich das Gefühl, dass meine US-Kollegen einen schweren Rucksack mit sich tragen: den einer hohen Verschuldung durch Studium, Familiengründung, Lebenshaltung. Und somit immer auch etwas "erpressbar" durch ihre Vorgesetzten und die nächsten Hierarchien.
Wenn ein Chef sagt: "geht links rum!", dann gehen sie links rum, egal ob sie eine Wand sehen oder einen Graben... sogar Überstunden werden gemacht, um an dieser Wand zu scheitern.
Niemand traut sich, dem Chef zu sagen, dass es einen besseren Weg gibt, denn der Chef hat Recht. Denn erkönnte einen morgen feuern...
You are BY FAR (!) the best Germany-Experience channel! You put so much effort into your videos and it shows! I am German (and Greek) and learn so incredibly much about the U.S. system, which comes handy being an English teacher!
Awe thank you so much! Making these videos is a LOT of fun for us too because we learn a lot more about these systems by doing the research. It's been a fun experience and we're so glad you enjoy watching.
One reason why the system works (more or less) smoothly in D is that there is a long-standing tradition of harmony between employers and trade unions whereas a lot of firms (and the public) in the US regard trade unions more of as a unnecessary burden to entrepreneurial freedom than a potential partner. Btw, this is not a specific US thing, the very same issue exists in a lot of Eurpoean countries such as France or the UK. The old saying goes: In pay disputes, German unions will discuss, then rediscuss and rerediscuss and then possibly and very rarely call for a strike. In France, unions will first strike and then only discuss....
Working together on specific topics despite representing sometimes opposing interests is not a big thing in the US economy. In addition, a lot of US firms refrain from systematically investing in employee education. There is the term "market value" for jobseekers in the US and employers do not regard increasing this market value unecessarily as employess might either ask for a raise or leave. Another aspect related to the reluctance of US firms to provide education is the fact that Americans switch jobs way more frequently than Germans.
So for my educational path, I went to Gymnasium and after my Abitur, I wasn't really sure what to do next.
Therefore I applied for an apprenticeship as a cabinet maker (Tischler/Schreiner) and found a really good small company.
The vocational training was planned for three years with at first 3 days at work and two days in school, where I met other students from other companies. This exchange with other students in other companies is very important to check for yourself if your employer treats you right, which is otherwise not so easy because you don't have any experience or reference.
From year to year the amount of school get less, to let you get more work experience.
I chose to shorten the apprenticeship to only two years after a half year. This was possible because I had good grades in school and my employer supported me.
The final exam then consists of two parts. An exam about all the things you've learned in school (of which I had to learn the content of one year by myself), and a skills test which also consists of two parts.
The first part of this is a full day of work, where every apprentice has to build something according to a plan they get in the morning.
The second part of the skills test is your personal "Gesellenstück" which is something you want to build.
There are several requirements for this project, which has to be planned by yourself (including a very detailed CAD drawing) and then approved by a committee, consisting of teachers and employees of local businesses.
After planning this project you have 100 hours to work on this project, all by yourself.
The final product ist than graded too.
In the end, these three grades make up your final result.
This was a great experience for my personal development. But I finally realized I need a job in which I have to challenge my brain. Therefore after finishing the apprenticeship, I went on to go to university and do something completely different. But the practical skills are going to help me for the rest of my life.
And I have a fallback option, if something goes wrong in my future.
Wow this is so cool! The two part exam does sound quite stressful, but certainly a great experience for your development. Thank you for sharing.
@@TypeAshton Two part exam is normal. in D. You alway have to do a practical test AND a theoretical test. The theoretical test not only consists of your concrete job, but also mathematics, languages and other "normal" school topics
I took full advantage of the German system and the "jumping around" possibility. After the Realschule I didn't want to go to school anymore, so I learned a trade job for 3.5 years. 3.5 days training on the job, 1.5 days in school per week. I made my own money, which was like 450€ / Month in 2008, and I didn't have to sit in a classroom all day. After I was finished, I then went to a university and studied, but in a completely different topic and am now working in some kind of hybrid job where my knowledge of my trade apprenticeship really pays of.
I think for it to work in the US, the mentality of: "Every one has to attend collage" has to go away first. The rest will follow if the demand for more vocational and on the job training will increase. Children in Schools need to have the possibility to test out trade jobs. Either in a mandatory course or via volunteering on afternoon courses, so they see that trade jobs can be fun and exiting, and also something that is highly needed. They need to know that you can get more money in a trade job, if the demand is there, than in a job as a college dropout, where you can't show anything to your new employer.
Also, by learning a trade job, most of the time you earn money earlier and then keep it, since you don't have to pay back a huge student loan.
An important message for me personally was: "Your carrier doesn't need to be a straight line. No ones stops you to still go to university after you learned a trade job. Or the other way around. And not even in the same field."
That‘s interesting, I thought without the allgemeine Hochschulreife you can get the permission to attend university via the apprenticeship, but only in this particular field, same with FOS
@@LJMahomes I got the FOS parallel to my apprenticeship through a program at my school. I studied at a private institute that worked together with a big university and got my bachelor of arts. But that is a whole other level that I didn't want to bring in :D
first you complete the vet then you get your engineers degree....this way you know all the "desk" skills and still have the field skills ...in my opinion the best....and you beat a lot of other white collar jobs when it comes to earning money.
There are a lot of loud voices in America which are pushing trade jobs simply because they will not start their careers with 4 years of college debt. Many of these jobs pay as well as those with a college degree.
With the challenging job market for college educated people (forcing them to get a graduate degree, like Jonathan), we hope more people will look towards the trade job route.
we had a 2 or 4 week internship in 9th or 10th grade where we had to find a company in an area in which we wanted to work later on after school was finished. I chose an office job because I have 2 left hands so to speak :D - I was never interested in a trade job/Handwerk because of the early start every day but preferred the what's now called 9 to 5 job (even if it pays less, I don't want to miss it).
I finished my Abitur at the top 10% of my class. But as I had no motivation to go on a "School-Path" in university, I started an appranticeship as a freight-forwarder.
Now 10 years later I worked in 3 different agencies and am now the leader of the shipping department in a middlesized company. I earn more money than a big part of my friends who went to university at this point (about 4600 Eur/month).
Of cause my parents would have veen glad if I went to study something after school, but I think I made the best choice.
- Hi, Jan - I've gradauted from high school in Poland than I've done my BA degree, major in Business and Management (but it wasn't really useful in my life) and now I'm working in Poland as a freight-forwarder as well. I make around 3000 Eur/month here in Poland, which for polish standard it's really good salary. I know many people here in Poland, who work as freight forwarders and majority of them make decent money, no university degree is needed for this position, just experience, English or German language is very helpful (other languages as well). But many people in Poland very often after college or university can't find a decent job, so my point is degree is not the most important thing, specially in our business.
And actually what happened in Poland now, there is huge need for trades workers: builders etc, because my generation (I was growing up in late 90's) everybody wanted to go to college or university, not to many people wanted to learn trade and work as blue-collar. Greetings from Poland :)
@@jarosawlasota3234 I experianced a lot of my classmates after graduation who enroled kn BWL (general business economics) just to do something and to study.
I have huge respect for everyone who has a clear goal or is learning like machine engeneering or to be a teacher.
But there was a social pressure to go to university no matter what.
First at al, congratulations. Your Video and al these Information is great. Also the interesting Comments, down below are quiet interessting. I am an entrepreneur, superviser. My volonteer work in the camber of crafts and trade an🎉d my work as the headmaster of the guild in munich gave me some experience in die topic. Now I am looking forward to visit vocational schools in the states. I am interested on exchange of experience.
Just as a side note: With a vocational qualification it is still possible to attend university later. Personally, I did go to university, failed horribly and made my qualification later. Today, I am one out of two without a university degree in my organisation, called a "nerd" and being one of comparatively few experts in my area of work.
Fun fact: When my son did the three week internship in our city's "Bauhof", he was the only one from a Gymnasium who had ever done this (and he later went to uni). In this time he made the comment that students from the Gymnasium later plan the buildings (architects), students from Realschule build them (contruction workers) and students from Hauptschule clean them later on (cleaning staff, often regarded as least qualified in Germany). Although this view might insult some people, it is very true. We can't all be architects, someone needs to build our houses (dreams) and maintain them.
I feel like that's a very interesting analogy to give as long as each of those professions and the people are respected and receive a fair wage. It takes all kinds to make the world go around. Thanks for sharing!
And also with facility maintenance and cleaning staff often being considered the "lowest end" and truly, having a lot of untrained workers here, no one should forget what every place would look like without anyone cleaning up. Especially after we liked everything clean and sanitized over the last two years.
Also, you can do a vocational training and apprenticeship as "Gebäudereiniger" (the actual job title is much longer)
never forget, most architects dont know where the hammer begins and where it ends, and no idea how it works...
i had a meet a lot of idiots while working in construction... and we ( Realschule Abschluß 2x) stopped the shit in its tracks, thought by idiots ( Abitur )
@@Arltratlo yep, there is an important difference between degree and knowledge. I needed ten years for my degree but worked for eight years during that time. When I finally had my degree my boss was happy, that now I could work full-time. And my area of work was always different from the subjects I studied. And most of the colleagues I hired did a (paid) Praxissemester at our company and were hired because of how they performed during that time.
A few minor niggles: 1. Abitur, not Arbitur (comes from Latin: ab ire, to go away). 2. School systems vary somewhat between 'Bundesländer'. Gymnasium itself usually leads to the Abitur (ie, it usually runs through year 12/13. It does confer the equivalent of a 'Realschulabschluss' after year 10 (at least in my time in S-H) for students who don't want to continue but regularly Gymnasium directly leads to the Abitur. Students from Realschule have the opportunity to switch to the Gymnasium after they finish RS (which may be harder as the Realschule concentrates more on practical knowledge. compared to theoretical in the Gymnasium, the switch may include a need to catch up...) and 3. It is not unheard of that students with Abitur go to a Berufschule etc after Gymnasium instead of to University. This is esp common for training for jobs in banking, Kaufmännische (ie non-retail-floor etc) and more theoretical technical jobs (IT etc). Often after such a training University education is appended after all
Ah yeah sorry about that. I got my words for Arbeit and Abitur mixed up there.
Greetings from Austria! We do have the same education system like our neighbours Germany. You might missed out one part of the blue collar jobs. It's called "Meister" , after your apprenticeship (and some years of experience) you can attend masterclass, becoming, after passing a commission's examination, a "Meister" (Master of your profession). This Meister is a equivalence to Bachelor, according Bologna process. And I did two apprenticeships and a master diploma in my current occupation. And yes, salaries are higher with diploma and have higher reputation.
To be honest the "Meister" is more comparable with a master degree ....The Bologna process is not value it correctly...you see it that the companies think so aswell if you look at the incomes....
@@rapsack7058 complete bs, compare a meister with a ma and it is not uncommon that the ma earns twice as much for nicer work
correction: i meant "ma" not ms
@@maonyksmohc9574
So you say a Meister is even more than a ma?
Than you just say the same as me.....
The whole make things compareable ...and try to fit our traditional degrees in that corrupted bologna system is just idiotic....
Since I have been an apprentice and have later become an Ausbilder (the company equivalent of a teacher) myself and also take part in examining students for their final exams in the same job that I once learned, this subject is rather important to me. And I’m afraid I have to say that I find your description of the German Dual VET program a bit misleading.
It sounds like you get to take part automatically. But you actually have to apply at a company for an apprenticeship. So you are an employee of the company that trains you. You also have the same rights and duties as every other employee and can get fired, etc. If you are fired the apprenticeship is over and there’s also no more Berufsschule for you.
Also Berufsschule is typically at most two days a week or you have Blockunterricht (no idea how to translate that, sorry), meaning you have two weeks of school (or three or four) and four weeks of work (or six or eight). So the work part gets more emphasis than the school part.
The Dual VET is not a government program in which companies take part but it’s rather driven by companies and the government supports them.
I understand that it’s hard to give a good overview of such a rather complex system in the short amount of time you have for or in a RUclips Video and therefore a lot of detail has to be omitted but I feel that the whole point of the system here in Germany is that while it’s aided by the government it is driven by the companies/economy themselves.
I am impressed by the profound work and research you put in those videos.
Thank you so much!
I am a Swedish worker who trained at a vocational school for various professions, I went to painting training which took 4 years when I was between 16-19 years old with an internship with a master painter for 1 year, then I was knowledgeable in all forms of knowledge that were required, for example weaving on ceilings, spray painting cars, wallpapering, mixing paint, we also went to theoretical subjects one day a week, an education with good teachers. We lived at the school or in rooms near the school. This was seen as an ideal form of education.
Germany's VET system doesn't only cover blue collar jobs. Bankers, insurance brokers, wholesale and retail merchants, accountants, nurses, secretaries, all kinds of office jobs are also attainable without college/uni diploma.
I watched a couple of videos some time ago, all about implementation of this system in some American states (i am sure Senator Sanders had it for Vermont but I am not sure if it is still in effect), mostly in areas where German (mostly automobile/automotive) companies where seated. In one video they had also Japanese, American and Canadian companies involved in the process and they worked closely with the American branch of the Deutschen Handelskammer, especially to get validated certificates after graduating and to keep up the same standards as in Germany (so participants would even be able to get a job in Germany or in case of the branch closing they could end their apprenticeships in Germany). Oh, and as a couple others already said, "Abitur" not "Arbitur".
Content like this is what RUclips was made for.
Nach meiner Kenntnis ist das Schulsystem in den USA - wie in Deutschland - durch die Gesetzgebung der Einzelstaaten geregelt. Deshalb gibt es dort teilweise sehr anspruchsvolle Eingangsprüfungen bei den Colleges und Universitäten die nicht jeder schafft . Darüber hinaus verlangen die besten Universitäten extrem hohe Studiengebühren. Für “Handwerksberufe“ gibt es keine mit Deutschland auch nur annähernd vergleichbare Ausbildung. In Deutschland sind die “Meisterprüfungen“ des Handwerks den Bachelor-Abschlüssen der Hochschulen gleichgestellt.
High school dropout here living in the states, blue collar job. (Truck driver) making low to mid six figures a year with no debt. My wife is a stay at home mom with 3 kids and we live comfortable in the expensive state of California. Thanks for your videos, they are very informative.
More than 20 % of those with Abitur go for an apprenticeship.
The test for the licence is quite difficult. My practical test went from Monday to Saturday ... 44 hours in a row. I was super pooped after this week. Then you have written exames in all your different tade related subjects that have to do with your education ( mine included fashion drawing, fabric technology, fashion history, math, politics, economics, German....) and finally there is an oral exam on a practical skill.
I loved my education and due to health issues I later went to University to become a Gymnasiallehrer, because I was not able to work in my job anymore.
The quality is on a very high level in deed over here. It's a long tradition, passed from generation zo generation from a Master, who's education you have to add to the years, so all in all it can even be a longer path than a University degree. 😅 ( Masterschool is 3 to 3,5, years in parttime educatuon) so thats 2,5 to 3,5 years apprenticeship (depending your trade ), plus Masterschool, which makes it 6 to 7 years until fully done, if you go for the master in your trade. 😅
Only a master can educate you. That's the reason for such high quality over here. 🙂
The high quality and high level of product in Germany can certainly be seen in nearly everything. This is one of the reasons we were inspired to dig into this subject in a video. We have a lot of respect for this aspect of Germany.
@@TypeAshton
Yes... This I could tell. You always do an amazing job on research. 🙂
Our educational system is inherited from the early Zünften in den freien Städten in medivial times. A Zunft has one or more Meister who teacher the Gesellen (skilled people) which also teacher the Lehrlinge (apprentice). All Trainings where training on the job. Only a Meister was allowed to run a business. This system was used until the 2000er. There are still Meister-Schools nowadays...
It used to be the way in Germany that employers hired mainly graduates from Hauptschule or Realschule for apprenticeships because who ever went to the Gymnasium wanted to go to university or college afterwards. Then it changed and employers hired mainly graduates from Realschule or Gymnasium because Hauptschule students could apparently not live up to the employers' requirements anymore. Nowerdays just a few students attend Hauptschule because they hardly have a chance to find a job afterwards. Now more and more students want to go to college and companies have problems to find a student as an apprentice anymore, mainly for crafts. And all companies now whine about the lack of Facharbeiter (skilled workers).
Yes, that's the reality!
Ah wow that is really interesting to learn more about. What opportunities do students to attend Hauptschule have after graduation then? Are there any positives to this school?
@@TypeAshton Well, Hauptschule are slowly disapearing. In the last 12 years they were reduced to a half. It takes special challenges to educate a lot of those kids, most of them have learning disabilities or come from socially disadvantaged families. And there are less and less teachers who want to deal with that. Those ex-Hauptschulen are integrated into some Realschulen or Gesamtschulen but that does not really solve the problems. Politicians have been unsucsessfully trying to improve the situation. So far, most of those kids do not really have a chance to get more than a support job.
Your youtube channel is great, I love people who can present facts so that you easily understand how things are.
After 10th grade Realschule I became an apprentice photographer at a large advertising photo studio for 3 years. After that I went on to my Abitur via something called Kolleg (an alternative track to reach Abitur after an apprenticeship, where you even receive money to be able to go there for three years.) With my Abitur I went on to a fine arts university, building upon my creative vocational training. I received a Masters of the Arts, which was useful, because with this I could go on to another university where I became a teacher (the German teacher training system is a pretty involved thing in and of itself, you might want to look into it as a topic for your videos.) So in the end, I went from being a 10th grader and a lowly apprentice to an arts teacher with tenure and comparably little worries.
It was all pretty stressful a lot of the time, even though my parents were able to finance this whole journey.
If I had to do it all over, knowing what I know now, I'd become a master woodworker (Zimmermeister). They're rare, highly respected, well earning, mostly self-employed and they can build and repair timber frame houses.
Really cool! Thanks for sharing your story.
For the Zimmermeister, we‘ve noticed as well how well respected highly-qualified woodworkers are. There is a huge desire for high quality wood everything in Germany, we love it.
Excellent analysis - this is quickly becoming one of my favorite channels.
I wonder how the social stigma associated with non-college degrees contributes to the increasing polarization in the US - if a significant proportion of the population feels (and is) undervalued, is it surprising that we see a lashing out at the ballot box, leading to the election of populists promising to restore greatness? Especially paired with economic trends disfavoring the non-college educated and no appreciable safety net...
Terrific video. It was a generalization in regard to the US system. I believe it to be impossible to explain the multitude of possible scenarios a person may face as a student in the U.S. as it relates to schools and trades education opportunities. I am a tradesman. I am an electrician by trade but here in the U.S. this can mean very different things based on your training. I did not have formal training but what is referred to as O.J.T. “On the Job Training”. Due to this my skill set is very specialized to a specific set of things. My experience is in an industrial setting with emphasis on control systems and instrumentation for motor control systems. Programmable Logic Controllers and SCADA systems. Associated with that is electrical experience in power systems from 5 volts to 14000 volts. Used in most industrial settings. I have worked for union and non-union companies. I make a very good salary as an hourly employee. It definitely is looked down on by most people to be a tradesman and you are considered to be of low intelligence and low pay. In my personal experience in the area where I grew up and in those in which I found work, trades or vocational schools were non-existent or required a hopeful tradesman to pay a tuition to attend. In my youth there were limited trades classes taught in high school. Which in recent years have vanished from my hometown high school and many other high schools. They do focus all their energy in these schools on sending kids to college and university and leave the other kids to fend for themselves. Most kids graduate high school with no skills and are thrown into the work force with little hope of attaining a livable wage. The idea that a German type system could work here in the U.S. is nothing but a “pipe dream”. The attitude of the corporations towards its hourly employees of which the trades generally are is one of utter contempt. Especially towards the trades and even more so if they are union tradesman. Trades crafts are generally considered a liability. We don’t produce goods and we cost the company money. Anyway I have gotten off topic. Definitely in the U.S. this would never work as a result of our attitude towards public education and paying for that system through property taxes which leads to gross disparities in educational opportunities based on whether you come from a poor community versus a wealthy community. Couple that with the unwillingness of corporations to shoulder any of the financial burden for anything unrelated to making them money in the short term. Also their absolute disdain for unions and their campaign against unions. Not to mention the amount of unscrupulous so called trade schools out there taking money from unsuspecting students and leaving them unprepared for entry to the trades. It’s an absolute disastrous situation for young people wishing to get into the trades. My best recommendation is visit your local union hall about an apprenticeship program. It’s the only place I can guarantee that you will get a good education and a fair wage in the U.S. as well as guaranteed better benefits than your non-union counterparts. Also some of my coworkers have been the most intelligent people I have met and generally make more money than many of their college educated friends. A college education is not a guarantee of decent wages or respect in a profession.
You're totally right - there's a lot that would need to change in the US for this to work - not just on the "mindset" of the culture regarding trade jobs, but also on an economic level with businesses and unions. I often wished I had more classes to prep me for the "real world". University gave me the tools I needed to owe taxes, but not necessarily how to file them.
Bravo! You sound like a German! I did go to the University but was employed because of a side job I had (SCADA-systems as well). In Germany we have "Fachhochschulen" which is like a university but specializing less on theory but rather "hands on"-experience. Actually most of the people we hired joined us for 6 months of (paid) apprenticeship as their third or fourth semester (They were attending Fachhochschule). Most of them got an offer to stay with us as long as possible (many are more than 60 years old now, so they worked there most of their life.). Obviously you gain a lot of experience when working in one area that long and this also helps your company, as German company owners know.
Well researched as always! Very good video! 😘
So glad you enjoyed it!
Good morning…once again: great „report“ with detailed information! It’s a pleasure following you here on RUclips.
Thank you so much. We're so glad you enjoy our videos. ♥️ This one was so interesting for us to make!
@@TypeAshton upps, it is „Abitur“ not „Arbitur“ on one of the frist slides… guess you will hear that more than once :-/
@@TypeAshton My wife and I lived and worked in the US for several years and got married there. Therefore, it’s really great following „your way“ in Germany.
I'm a 36 years old German and have a bachelor's degree in history and Japanese studies. I had a kind of love-hate relationship with university education. Let's just say it didn't work out finding a job in those areas post-graduation. After working in the hotel industry for a while, I am currently doing vocational training to become a specialist in media and information services (FAMI in German) in the public library of my home town. It takes three years.
And so far, it's great. The public service sector has all kinds of benefits - the working hours are quite flexible, for example. My colleagues are a wonderful bunch. Vocational school is two days a week. It can be a bit annoying, because I'd claim only about half of the educational content is actually useful for the jobs we are doing (biology and gym classes, really?!). But otherwise it can be quite interesting. FAMIs are devided into different fields, for libraries, archives, medical documentation, photo agencies or documentation and information institutes. But for most of the classes, you stay together as a mixed group and get to know the other fields, with the opportunity to even switch under the right circumstances.
That is one aspect I wanted to emphasize. It is very helpful to get to know other people who do the same vocational training, but in another city. Some things differ so you are able to assess where your employer stands both positive and negative, if that makes sense. Or if maybe a bigger city would be better for you, or working in an academic library instead of a public one.
Three small traineeships for the other fields lasting about two to five weeks each are also part of the training. Because of my background in history I was unsure if maybe archives fit my preferences better. Now I know for sure that the decision for public libraries was the right one (it's just so much livelier and has way more variety with all the fun events we do ;-).
Oh, and about the age: I'm not even the oldest guy in my class! Our youngest classmate is a girl of only 16 years, the oldest however is in her mid-40s, doing occupational re-training due to health issues! Some have university degrees or aborted their studies, some have Abitur, others just finished Realschule. Maybe this puts into perspective how varied the vocational training can be also regarding the background of participants. In the video you talk mainly about young people, and yes, the system is primarily designed for them. But it is also a great opportunity for all kinds of folks in different situations and stages of their life, for whatever reason... as long as you manage to get the position in the first place.
I liked most of my time at university and got to know some incredible people and friendships lasting to this day. Despite this, in all honesty, I sometimes wonder if it was worth the huge time investment and stress, and whether doing a vocational training from the start would have actually been the better decision. I'm not getting any younger, and the salaries I "missed" but could have had in all those years are not a pleasant thought. As a FAMI, I won't exactly get rich, but it is more than enough to get by (despite not being a "proper" librarian or a "proper" archivist), and way more than I earned working in a big hostel.
"Let's just say it didn't work out finding a job in those areas post-graduation."
Not to sound callous: But who would have thought with just a bachelor in those fields... A "total" surprise. ;)
And I say that as someone who studied something similarly "useless". ;)
@@Quotenwagnerianer Well, I started with Magister, one of the "old" study paths (not to be confused with Master), and was later basically forced to switch to Bachelor. There were problems with the recognition of certificates I already completed, so I had to start a number of courses from scratch. I contemplated doing a Master's degree afterwards, but finishing the Bachelor took me too long for various reasons, I didn't have the time for any notable internships, and money was scarce.
To this day, I still think the Bologna Process was a huge mess and detrimental to many in my generation, with various bad decisions made by those in charge. Our head of the faculty even left the Society of German Historians in protest. I mean, I get that my subjects weren't exactly job magnets, but in many humanities /liberal arts, doing just the Bachelor's degree is virtually useless. So why establish that at all as a graduation, if most companies demand the Master anyway? As a Magister, I would have had at least a few more options, and the degree is worth more than a Bachelor in general.
I'm happy with what I'm doing right now, but looking back, there are still some hard feelings involved regarding how all of that transpired. And to go back to topic, that's another plus for the German system of dual vocational training: No matter how disorganized it may be in school and/or in your company, after three years, you have great chances to get permanent employment. With a Bachelor for a number of disciplines, you got almost nothing after three years and more.
Well researched and explained as always
Thank you!
With every video I feel like I get a well-researched essay. Thank you!
So glad you enjoyed the video! Thanks for watching.
Hi Ashton, I like your deep drilling on various topics, but they all show a good level.
Thank you so much!
I was told by my guidance counselor I wouldn't amount to anything. My family wasn't wealthy enough to send me to university, my grades weren't good enough to buy a scholarship. So, I joined the military. After my stint, I went to a vocational school paid for by Uncle Sam. Later, I attended a small Community College and earned an A.S. Today I work at a small company, live a comfortable life, own a home, etc. etc. I like to think, I proved my guidance counselor wrong.
I think you proved them wrong as well. ❤️❤️ Really glad you were able to find your success.
👍👏Hi tolles Video, wie immer!
Ich sah neulich einen Bericht, wo gezeigt wurde wie BMW USA das deutsche System in ihrem Werk eingeführt hat. Ihnen ging es um Qualitätsstandards 🙋♂️
Das ist wirklich toll. Wir hoffen, dass dies unter mehr Unternehmen geschehen kann.
I stumbled across your channel today and I really enjoy your content!
As a German who is currently finishing their vocational training as an office management clerk my biggest advice for anyone starting a vocational training is to not believe that you are less than. Prior to my vocational training I was a university student studying musicology and all of my friends from uni or high school were getting their first or second bachelors or masters degree. I didn’t qualify for financial aid as a university student and due to covid my parents weren’t able to support me financially anymore. Since you’re only allowed to work 20 hours per week as a full time student I wasn’t able to earn enough money to pay for all of my expenses. Quitting uni and starting an apprenticeship was the only way to be able to earn a little more, which is now just enough to get me by.
Starting the apprenticeship I felt horrible because comparing myself to my peers growing up (I went to a very expensive boarding school in the Black Forest) gave me the impression that I didn’t amount to anything and that I was a complete failure for having to start an apprenticeship at the age of 23.
Into my training at work I realised that most of my superiors didn’t go to university directly after high school but did vocational training first and then got their university degrees. So everything is still possible after completing my apprenticeship. You also earn more money working while studying at university if you have a vocational degree to start with, vocational school doesn’t have to be the last step in your education. Students who don’t have the Abitur because they left school after 10th or even 9th grade can even get the university entrance qualification by doing an apprenticeship instead getting their Abitur. So an apprenticeship can be an excellent way to get into uni if you don’t have Abitur.
I love the last section with your little boy exploring the new house 😍😍
He was SO TALKATIVE that day. 😂
i think that first of all the US needs to have a huge change in the mindset that is over there. like you mentioned several times before, each worker has to be respectet for what they do. it doesnt matter what they are doing. without this mindset i believe that a system we use in germany would badly fail in the US. and also you are not stuck in one direction in germany. i am now 53 and several years before i could not work in my job anymore due to health issues, so i got a full paid "umschulung". 2 years later i got my certificate for a software developer. it was kinda weird to go to school with very young ppl but you always had the respect from each person arround you.
again, without a huge change in the mindset or culture of the US nothing will change .
greetings
We can only hope that things will improve now that there is a massive push for more trade job positions. Maybe it's enough?
Hi Ashton, love your videos. I lived in Germany for over 2 decades so most of what you're saying is spot on. To add to this topic, Germany also provide a mix of Academic and vocational training courses/apprenticeships called Duales Studium/Berufsakademien. This for students who have Abitur but do not wish to persue a purely academic degree but also want to acquire vocational skills. These course provide both and after 3 to 4 years you end up with a bachelors degree as well as certificate in a trade
Great video 😊! There is one additional component for vocational training: "die Außerbetriebliche" (might have different names in different places). These are mandatory one week trainings about a special topic (e.g. network technology, whatever you need in your job) in a central training center.
But that depends heavily on the company
@@karinland8533 What depends on which company 😀?
@@isitramt if they offer a „Außerbetribliche“ or not, and on the profecion of cause
What a good job and a nice place to live as a family
Congratulations guys
Thank you! We feel very lucky.
Thumbs up! Another great video to which I can again contribute my own and my family’s experience. Last week I had shared that I spent my childhood in Italy and went to the European School in Varese. But I didn’t get to continue the European School philosophy when we moved back to Hamburg just in time to start the Gymnasium in 5th grade. Since everyone was new at the Gymnasium I seemed to have an easier time adjusting to my new school. My two-and-a-half-year younger brother, however, had to switch from the European system to the German system in the middle of Elementary School, between 2nd and 3rd grade. That was a tough transition for him, so much so that once he got to the Gymnasium in 5th grade he failed out after the 6th grade (Beobachtungsstufe) and continued at the Realschule. I, by contrast, was successful in finishing my Abitur (btw, there is no “r” in Abitur) after the 13th grade (yes, back then we had 13 years of school). The Abitur was, at least back then, comparable to the American Associates Degree. My brother, however, finished the Realschule and then continued his education as a car mechanic going to school and working an apprenticeship at Volkswagen. He was very successful at that. After completing his apprenticeship and getting his degree he went on to pursue his Fachabitur, an Abitur focused specifically on his trade. He then got a very good job with STILL (forklifts) where he still works today in management. While I pursued my academic career and moved to the United States, he stayed in Hamburg. His educational path turned out to have served him very well. I am not sure he would have enjoyed an academic career.
I think it is great that both of you were able to fit your "fit". My sibiling and I fit a very similar story where I went on to academia and she found her stride working for a bank.
I just want to point that it highly depends on the job if your level of education "doesn't matter" (or is as respected as others) as you said. Two examples, positive and negative: friend of mine finished Hauptschule and started the same job as me. Because he's a very competent software engineer and had a good company who supported him, he's now a software architect in a large company and earns a third more than me (got my Abitur, started studying Computer Science in Freiburg but never finished and had my vocational education afterwards). That's the positive one. The negative one was when I asked a boss of mine if I could become project manager. Short answer: "No, because you haven't a university degree!" To quote my father who was First Sergeant in the Bundeswehr and is also a trained master electrician: "If you want to know something, ask an officer. If you want the job done, ask a sergeant." In my opinion, especially in technical jobs a higher education is preferred over a vocational education. Even if the employee with the vocational education has the higher expertise in the field.
My point here is: yes, the german educational system is very flexible (but also freaking complicated) to achieve any kind of degree. But I believe we developed this "white collar jobs are better" attitude as well and don't see that people with vocational education/ a degree from a Fachhochschule (I believe this is comparable to the american technical college you mentioned) can be as competent as someone with a university degree :)
Fun fact...some german companies, mainly car manufactoring, that set up branches in the US, had significant problems finding skilled workers.
Their solution in the end was to built up a VET system german style on a lokal level.
I'd guess this is what it would take for the US to change into that direction. The companies organizing the whole thing and then pressuring the state governments into it.
Considering how over competitive US companies seem to be...I don't think this is going to happen anytime soon...😏
And this students that have completed these VET programs of german companies are highly willcoming accepted in other american companies !
The STIL company has also opened up a training path in the USA in this way.
Incidentally, there is also a German company that hires its trainees internationally, trains them in Germany and then deploys them as journeymen in their home country.
Very interesting, we did not know that the German companies provided this type of system in the states.
Considering that large corporations can often convince the government to change their ways, maybe it's possible?
@@TypeAshton you have a very polite way of saying corporations are good a bribing 😆
But yea...it actually might be a way. For once that would be to the benefit of everyone.
@@TypeAshton Just look for BMW in Spartanburg---there is a youtube video available!---They do this and have no problem finding staff!--Just the first sentence of manager of HS!--We train you as a master mechanist-we pay you at that time--and we want you to stay with us till you retire--just blew everyone away!!!
Terrific video. One aspect to add is the we also have universities (called 'Technische Hochschulen') that focus on teaching university topics with more emphasis on practical job knowledge as opposed to academic goals. They even offer some study subjects where you work a lot of your time in a company, sort of moving the Berufsschule partnership with companies and already having a stable job to the university level. That might be one way to get there in the US, as there is clear economic incentive to do that (stable income during studies, companies generally also take over the study fees in Germany), and it would potentially remove some of the stigma...
Ah that is really interesting! Thank you for sharing. We will look more into this.
Basically you are also able to go make Abitur even though you come from Haupt/Mittel- or Realschule.
With enough job training and the Meister degree or Technician you are also able to go to a Fachschule to get a university degree in that field you were already working in. Even though you just had your Hauptschule finished at the age of 16 and was not sure what "school" means to you.
It is not always easy to switch a certain path. It depends a lot on your surrounding, people etc. But is is possible.
good video. and, little Jack look's like an little penguin if the walks trou the rooms. very nice
Thank you for your very good information. It is better than many other sources of information out there.
Just note, as a small improvement suggestion, that *Abitur* only has one *r* (not Arbitur as in 3:45 ).
Thanks again for your efforts to explain everything easily 🙂
Thanks, we often think 'Arbeit' and then accidentally throw in an extra 'r'. :)
@@TypeAshton well, yes, Abitur is a lot of Arbeit 🙂
I loved Jack’s evaluation of the house! He could teach our little David a lesson in walking - and they’re almost the same age I think (17/11/2020).
I must compliment your video again: so we’ll researched and presented. You’ve totally earned your PhD :)! It’s always worth mentioning that going to university in Germany is free I think. We’re in England and if I would make comparative videos (e.g. NHS or school system GB/Germany), people would hunt me down. They’re so protective over ‘their NHS’ which lets people die probably every day with millions of people on so called ‘hospital waiting lists’.
Anyways: your channel is awesome and so full of great information ℹ️!
Awe thank you so much for the kind compliment! And yes! our little ones are super close in age, just 5 days apart! Going home over the holidays seemed to make a huge difference in his walking. He has a TON of older cousins and found out pretty quickly that he couldn't keep up with just crawling. 😂
Great topic!
As a person close to retiring, I ‘m going to comment on this blog episode by taking a look back over the years to some ofthe people I interacted with and their background. It long ago lead me to reevaluate the mantra that the only path to financial and personal success was a 4 year university degree which is something my well meaning non-college attending parents emphasized to me as I was growing up. Over my life, I’ve accumulated lots of personal anecdotes challenging that assumption. I have a university degree in engineering along with graduate school. I think you make a very persuasive case that the US needs craft and trades workers and associated training in specialized high schools as much as if not more than university graduates with sociology and similar degrees that don’t pay off in the long run.
My first job using my newly minted degrees was with a company that I ended up working for 20 years. During that time, one facet of the ongoing training, in addition to attending professional conferences and university classes, at this company was to send interested staff to week long detailed systems training at some of the power plants for which we performed engineering support. I loved every minute of it! It was a totally different learning experience than, for example, sitting in a university lecture hall listening to the professor walking through the solution to a fluid mechanics problem set. Some of those courses had the plant operating staff teaching as well as attending. Let me tell you, these guys (yes, they were mostly men) knew their stuff even if they didn’t have a 4 year engineering degree. When I asked about them about their paths to working at a power plant and their background, they almost uniformly said the didn’t enjoy school but enjoyed working with things, understanding how they worked, and enjoyed the satisfaction of seeing the equipment they maintained in use. Most didn’t have the opportunity to attend a vocation technical high school but attended their local high school without any enthusiasm. Most of them got the training that, pardon the pun, launched them in the US Navy nuclear propulsion schools and they uniformly praised its rigor, thoroughness, and emphasis on demonstrating that they’d mastered the material. They all said they felt enormous pride when they were certified at a watch station back in the navy and when they passed their federal and state licensing exams at the power plant. I suspect they’d all have flourished in a VET environment. Some of these people were working on a 4 year degree at night.
Thank you so much for sharing your experiences and story. It sounds like you have had SUCH an interesting work history and got to work with some extremely talented workers along the way. We really need to normalize trade jobs as they can be extremely rewarding (and not just in the financial sense).
Your Phd research skills are evident. Well done.
Thank you so much!
Thanks for the video! Interesting topic to think about!
Having been a student in the german (mainly) and the US (partly) education system I can agree with allot of your points. However I must also say that the german education system is also far from perfect! One big difference that has been brought to my attention is the fact that education in the US seems to be viewed as a private good and therefore comes with high costs! Where as German education is viewed to be a public good, often funded by government (taxes) and industries.
An interesting topic you didn’t cover is the dual system (university and VET) we have here. I’m about to finish a dual Bachelors degree where I learn a trade and get a degree at the same time. I found this to be a very good way to get the hands on practical experience and have a Bachelors degree on top. The company I am learning a trade at, even invested in salary while studying and covering my university bills.
Thanks again for the video and the nice tour of the house!
To be honest, we did not even know this was a thing in Germany. Thank you for letting us know, this could be an entire video by itself. What a cool option for people wanting to become an expert in their field. I (Jonathan) would have totally done this if I had the chance in the United States.
Besides working in a company and learning the theory of the job in school, there are also courses provided by the IHK or your career specific organisation. In these courses for example you learn how to use the most important machines for your job.
So even your practical skills are standardized, at least for the important things.
This is very important because even if you work in the same job, companies are specialized and therefore may not have every standard machine, simply because they don't need it.
Ah very cool!!
Thanks for that and gingerly stepping through the minefield of which is better. Your pauses as you spoke, spoke volumes to me, have you thought of the diplomatic corps. Wouldn't it be great if people would look at the data possibly argue about the data at the edge and then argue on the basis of the interpretation of that data. Very little chance of that in the anglosphere, I am a Scot who has become an Australian. Nice description though of the systems in Germany and the USA. In Australia the education system has likewise become skewed to college and university mainly because these institutions funding come from the more they can get in. Now there is a swing back to better fund vocational training in the Technical and Further Education system TAFE.
We are thrilled you enjoyed the video.
Maybe the USA will also be following this swing back to vocational training? Did Australia also have a deficit of qualified applicants for trade positions due to the skewed college swing?
Very well done contribution, clear and not oversimplified, very informative! I've heard and read a little about before, but especially when talking to colleagues from the US and some other countries about this, there's a lot of appreciation for the German way. And while watching your video, I noticed that I never thought about whether there is a different reputation of trade jobs compared to others. Ok, there is less reputation for jobs that generally don't require any education, e.g. cleaning or disposal jobs. I would never look down on a colleague just because he doesn't have a PhD for his job. However, I know there are such who do, and there may be some leeriness in both directions about the conception of what has to be done, and how, when it comes to a specific task. But I consider these to be issues more of the character than of society in general (and it's often caused by the respective language and the terms both parties use, on a side note).
Maybe one thing to add: I think you mixed up something in the partition of education and training days in dual VET. At least from what I know, there is more training on the job than days in school. Usually there is one day of Berufsschule per week, and the rest of the week is training on the job.
Oh, and you might check your presentation @ 3:40 , it should be "Abitur" (not related to arbitrary. Though, t.b.h., I'm not so sure any more). And it's called "Matura" in Austria.
Ah yes sorry about that. I got my German words for "Arbeit" and "Abitur" mixed together there. 😬 And Thanks for the additional information on the apprenticeship to classroom ratio. When researching fo this video we had read that it varied from profession to profession but often got conflicting information when we looking into individual paths.
@@TypeAshton because you get paid by the company you spend more time working than in school (in average for the whole time as aprantice) usually in the first year it might be more and in the last year less. Ther are also different systems in place sometimes school day is everey week, if it is a trade not so common there might be only one school in the state or even in Germany then you have whole school weeks and have to live in dorms for that time.
I in fact I was lucky enough to take advantages of the German and American system. After "Realschule" I started an apprenticeship as electrician for 3,5 years, worked a couple of years in the job and then went back to school for a degree as a technician (staatlich geprüfter Techniker). So I jumped around in the German school system before my final career started. After that I started working for an American company in a totally different domain and there the only thing what counted was how you performed and made your targets. When I started, they told me that the degree I brought was only important to proof that I'm able and willing to learn but what I've studied was only secondary as I had to learn my new job from scratch again anyway. I've worked for that company 35 years and made it up to an executive level, something I would have never reached in a German company where they are looking more on degrees than on performance if you want to get up the ladder.
I disagree. I lead my department while studying (everybody was a full time worker, I was not). But I have to admit I was working at a small company (>100 employees), so it was easy to see how capable somebody is.
So I went to gymnasium finished with good grades and started university. After three semesters I dropped out and decided to take on an apprenticeship as an wholesale and exportmanagement assistant and was lucky that due to my good grades I could shorten it to only two years.
I stayed at the company where I did my apprenticeship and after a year of working I decided I needed a bit of a challenge, so in my free time I studied for my "Wirtschaftsfachwirt" and got my degree. Since 2020, I believe, in an effort to make this secondary route of education more comparable for the international labor market, you now gratuate in those studies with a "bachelor professional of business" and if I would decide to further my education, my next degree would be "master professional of business"...
So there are a lot of ways to further your career even if you choose to take on an apprenticeship instead of going to university.
Some companies even prefer graduates from the ihk or something similar to college graduates, because of the work experience they accumulated during their apprenticeship and further studies (of course there are companies that prefer it the other way around). For me personally, if I had to do it again, I would have started with the apprenticeship and saved myself the one and a half years of university. Later on there still would have been time for that and I would have known my own strengths and weaknesses better (and would have earned money early on)...
Nice summary! I personally went to university but seeing how needed craftsman are here in Germany, being self employed especially in the construction area could really be like finding a gold mine. Incredible how the prices rose!
It’s called Abitur by the way :D
Very interesting video! But I think an interesting point to mention would be that the vocational system isn't only for blue collar jobs. Many 'office jobs' such as bank clerks and even bankers, and government jobs such as tax inspectors and administrators are thought in VET programs. As are many jobs in the medical world such as nurses. I do hope I got all the job translations correct!
One thing you didn't mention and which imho is pretty central to the vocational system being seen as equal, is the fact how permeable the system is also later on. My experience is with the swiss system but it is afaik pretty similar to the German one. So one thing is that almost any vocational training allows you to study at a Fachhochschule in a subject relevant to your education. E.g. as a cook or baker you could study food chemistry.
Also in Switzerland many students actually finish Berufsmaturitätsschule (BMS) while doing their vocational training. This allows you to study at all FHS and with an additional exam also at all universities.
Another thing is that vocational training doesn't only include typical blue collar jobs but also things like draftsman or programming. In these fields I'd argue you actually have an advantage over students who go the classical route, because at an age the others barely finished their abi/matura, you have a finished education with practical experience and you can start a bachelor's degree at the same time. Fachhochschule has the additional advantage over universities that they are more practical and allow part-time studies which allows you to self-finance your studies without needing a loan.
So tons of advantages imho.
I went to a Realschule first, did an apprenticeship as a car mechatronic - which takes 3.5 years. It has been some weeks of work in the shop, then 2 weeks in school, some weeks in the shop, 2 weeks in school and so on. We also have what we call "Überbetriebliche Lehrlingsunterweisung" that's courses offered and hosted by the chamber of crafts (Handwerkskammer). There you get both, schooling in theory and doing actual work together with apprentices (mostly) from your school class, can be classes from other schools as well. Those are also mandatory and there have been 10, i guess, something like that.
After that, i went to school again to get my Abitur in the Berufsoberschule - that's a school for people that did an apprenticeship and seek to get the Abitur. You only need to do grade 12th and the final exam, but most people will do grade 11 and 12.
And nowadays i work for one of the biggest Tech Companies in Germany.
Hi Ashton, Hi Jonathan,
a short Info. BMW startet a German Like vocational Training in their factory in Spartanburg, because they could Not find enough skilled workers. There some RUclips-Videos about this Programm.
Also, I Just recently found your RUclips-Channel and I have to say you do an excellent Job.
So I will make a Black Forst-Marathon today, watching all your Videos.😅
Best regards and have a nice Sunday! Ralf
That is so kind of you. We are so glad you are enjoying our content.
Good video!
I’d like to point out that in the USA, community colleges tend to be focused on vocational subjects. And many of these programs are well supported by local companies.
One other thing…. The military has been a common source of trade education for young people in the USA. I am one of those.
I am 40+ age can I do vocational course or state school and then apprenticeship
Hi
You mentioned that german apprentices get paid. That is correct, but maybe you should have also mentioned this:
You get every benefit other workers in Germany get too. 25 days paid vacation, unlimited „sick leave“, up to 3 years maternity leave and of course health insurance and pension insurance.
I went to every school type there is in Germany, lol.
After Grundschule I went on to Hauptschule and after that I went two additional years to a „Berufsfachschule“ (there were three types: Sozial, Technik and Wirtschaft) and completed my Mittlere Reife which is equivalent to Realschule. Then I did an apprenticeship and started to work in earnest. Very soon I got my Abitur at an evening school and went on to study.
Just wanted to show how it is possible to go from Hauptschule to University. It is very relatively easy if you have the inclination.
Your videos are very thought provoking and take me back to when I was a German resident back in my mid 20s (around 1985). Bye the way, I think you meant to say controversial - much akin to health care, at minute 1:50! But I must say, your videos are easily the most comprehensive I’ve seen regarding life in Germany. Much better than watching giggly teenage girls talk about the differences between the American and German dating scene during their exchange student experience. Actually I’m wondering how much preparation you stick into some of these videos. My goodness, not to sound over patronizing, but I’d even give you a PhD just for the content on this channel!
I remember metal/wood shop in junior high. It’s been outsourced to vocation schools that charge extra money. In other words why leave the young-adult education segment unexposed to commercial activity? If there’s a buck to be make, then it should be made for goodness sake!
I used to make fun of some of my German friends who were in enrolled in apprenticeships that had $20 names (Einzelhandelskaufman) but only $5 salaries. I don’t believe that all jobs should require vocational training and working in a supermarket is one of them. But, I do believe the German system is much more superior to that of the US system where high-school grads are herded into college to pursue worthless degrees that are inferior to most of the skilled technical training a person would receive in an apprenticeship. Not to mention the level of debt pursuing a worthless degree can saddle a person with!
Whenever I go back to the States and observe the level of simplistic craftsmanship in home construction I almost want to throw up. Why would a person want a concrete driveway when they can have a cobble stone driveway? Why settle for a toothpick wall construction when you can have a tornado-proof one made of blocks specifically designed to meet construction needs like retaining heat in the winter and cooling in the summer? Why have a hideous hot water heater in the basement when you can have “Durchlauferhitzer” installed in the walls. Why settle for exposed ventilation and piping in the basement rafters when everything can be tucked away nicely? The list goes on and on. Oh, and don’t forget the kick-in front and back doors American’s have on the houses. German doors have lots of locking points in the interior framing of their front house doors. And obviously they’re quite a bit sturdier. If you build a home in the States, it’s highly likely that the person cutting 2x4s and nailing together the walls, was pulled of the street the day before. He may even have lied about his skills just to get the job. To make a long story short and to end this rant, there is much more solidarity and social responsibility in the German system. Whereas the American system is based solely on making a buck with every man/woman or child for themselves.
A last thought, what is your attitude about German adult children living at home? This could be a topic for a video. I would be happy to share my thoughts with you if you want some extra input.
I come from the city of Milwaukee which had 3 highly successful pioneering socialist mayors. Now, socialism is such a huge boogeyman that it would take a tremendous shift in the American paradigm to get things on a different track. There are so many people who can’t afford college but who could thrive in a government and industry sponsored apprenticeship. America needs a shift in leadership as well. A country with only two other bordering countries is a curse. No outside influence and no learning through process of osmosis!
Your presentation method s very diplomatic probably not to upset your State-side viewers. But between you and me, both Americans, I think we know how much the American system is lacking and going in the wrong direction. On the other hand we both care about our home country and want to see it succeed. Your Truly RheinKing
Thanks so much for the well thought out comment. Agreed that we both want America to succeed. Our hopes is that some of these episodes will make their way to more USA viewers and help encourage some change.
"a country with only two neighbors" Never thought about that. BTW: Until you mentioned Milwaukee I assumed you to be a German (Yes, you may take this as a compliment). Although I have to admit most of the Americans I met (in Germany) sound similar, usually about 6-8 months after moving here.
One important thing to emphasize is the also regulated salary for the apprenticeships in Germany. It varies quite a bit from job to job. But when I was 16 years old, those about 1000 Dollars (adjusted for inflation) while still living with my parents and having no essential expenditures was the number one motivation to become a tool and die maker.. Later I still went to university to become an engineer but I probably needed the 3 years of training to mature enough to see the benefit of advanced degrees in the first place.
The experience as a technician and/or machine operator is also making me a better, more practical thinking engineer I think.
Anyways, also in Germany, the vocational training is loosing in popularity for what I heard. Largely due to increase in student numbers on the Gymnasiums and deuteriation of the Haupt and Realschule
The German school system is more differenciated than in your description. Beside the Abitur, the "Allgemeine Hochschulreife" that enables any kind of University studies, there is also the "Fachabitur" after 12 years in different kinds of Gymnasiums (Gymnasium, Wirtschaftgymnasium, technisches Gymnasium) . After 12 years with Fachabitur you can study at a University of Applied Sciences without the classical Abitur.
There are more and more special study courses called "Duales Studium" a mixture of vocational training and studies. This makes sense as most trade areas get more and more complex with hightec etc. and to encourage young people to enter these fields by offering development perspectives that are more attractive than the classical "Ausbildung".
Ah very interesting, thank you for this added information. :)
I did a combination of vocational training and studies for a bachelors degree in parallel. This concept is called „duales Studium“. The courses at university essentially replace the theoretical part of the vocational training. A lot of stress towards the end but 2 degrees in 3 years. One of the better choices in my life.
As you said, you can actually hop around between the "branches" in the German education system, which is great when you were young and stupid and want to turn around your life.
I got into Gymnasium because at that point I liked school, dropped out because at that point I hated school, began to like school again in Berufschule (because school was nicer than the accompaning job), attended another school designed for Berufschüler to get their Abitur, and finally got to University at 26...
Great video and very informative.
At a high level I think the difference is more down to how each government sees its role in relation to their citizens.
So the German one (and most EU countries) seems to look more at the holistic needs of the entire population and providing equal opportunity (education, healthcare) and protections (labor laws with worker rights, paid vacation and paid maternity leave etc) for their citizens.
While the American one seems only to work for the "winners" and is essentially running a race to the bottom just to make a little more profits (with a short term focus) just look at things like "at will work", two tier compensation plans, reduction in benefits etc.
So I definitely agree that there needs to be a culture shift but think it might be bigger then just "trade jobs are cool".
However i do feel more and more EU countries seem to be following (or want to follow) the American example but so far have failed due to strong unions and worker parties with strong political parties.
Anyways great video absolutely love the diversity of topics you cover, keep up the good job.
Thank you so much for watching, we enjoy covering (and learning) as much as we can in our channel.
We totally agree though, America (in many aspects) will go the route of awarding the 'winners' only. There is a large cultural (and political) shift to get more investment into trade job professions. We hope the degrading infrastructure which is needing repair can help push this.
Even going to University, having a good vocational training helps a lot. I had a training as "Radio und Fernsehtechniker" (Radio and television technician) and later attended University ( Georg Simon Ohm Fachhochschule Nürnberg ) to become a electrical engineer. The vocational training helped to get another View of topics handled in University an also helped later in my job. This way it took some additional time, but this time was well invested.
2 remarks : school times are mostly in blocks (2 weeks of school, 4 weeks of work) . And yes there is building pressure starting at Kindergarten to get the Abitur and the university track. My son went the other way and did learn landscaping and is very successful now
Welcome in my life. I have Abitur and two trade jobs . As a mechanic i am not so well paid as somebody with a graduate degree, but it is a really save job . Because nobody wants to do that anymore.
As someone who flipfloped between academia and VET (Abitur, VET, bachelor, masters) and is now back to working at the Berufsschule as a teacher I value your video.
If you ever want to do a follow up and want some questions answered feel free to ask.
Thank you so much for the kind offer! We appreciate it. ♥️
Education is the main away out of poverty.
I grew up in a kind of low/middle class area in the UK (home ownership and social house renting) and was lucky that the education system in the UK allowed me to go to university (even if a little late in life, around 26) and get out into the world of better paid work.
I germany I live in a fairly well off area (although it is mixed, I live in a city so well off/not so well areas can be close to each other) , but I still see low paid work and poverty rolling down generations. In my daughter's class in grundschule there were several kids who were not that academic but could have managed if they had received some support. Their parents worked low paid jobs (with shifts, long days, very early starts) so support from there was lacking (not their fault, but it is what it is) and there were 26 to 28 kids in the class.
Some of those kids will find a job that pays better (talent, interest of their etc) but others will end up doing jobs like their parents (much like the better off kids will end up doing jobs like their parents) and the situation rolls on.
It's obvious that not everyone can achieve the same as everyone one else, not everyone can be a David Beckham, a Bill Gates, or an Elon Musk. What we can do though, is give the kids the absolute best start from which to build their lives on, Not all will climb high due to personal factors, but we can give them the start they need to, if they can.
My favorite part about the German education vocational system is that some careers (like carpenter) still offer a traditional Wanderschaft. Leaving behind most your worldly possessions, wandering the country for three years and a day, working for room and board, advancing your craft under different masters, not going home nor staying in the same town for longer than six months. That's a socially accepted way to advance your career.
Hi Black Forest Family
This is a very well researched and presented Video. I went to the Realschule in Germany from Grade 6-8 probably destined for one of the 330 Trades. Now living in Canada, I find it interesting - As an example - you want your house painted- you usually just get a guy or gal- with experience - no formal training. In Germany my Aunt had her apartment pained by Meister (Master) painters. Fully trained . I luv that aspect. In north America - you always get a guy. It's always learning on the job - no formal training in many cases. Also it's a dilema in the US - Learn a Trade or get a BA in Geography and fold sweater s at the Gap when you Graduate. In Canada many University Grads are returning to our Community Colleges to learn a Skill.
Two brief points; in Germany, children in "high school" spend several weeks in Praktikum to visit areas they might be interested in and to see what work is like in these areas. This helps them to get an idea about what their future work life could be like.
German companies above a certain size are required to train apprentices or pay a substantial fee for the training of others. The best employers often have enough applicants for training that they have fairly stringent testing before taking on their apprentices. Again, the best employers also make an effort to keep their young and older employees satisfied.
I'd say the easiest step for a state in the US to take would be to ensure a good orientation course towards the end of highschool. One that aims at informing students of all their options, how much they will pay or earn during training and what they can expect in terms of pay and opportunities later on. Even better if they get a month or more to get a real look at a job.
In germany, while the university education was pretty much free you still knew you would lose money while you're there but you would end up with many job options. In contrast a vocational training was always the safe choice where you earned as you learned. The big risk being you end up hating the job or the people you're working with and having to restart on a different career.
One example, a friend of mine was training to be an optician but the owner of the store he worked at disliked him, made problems and would have forced him to repeat a year or more. As a result he switched carrers and is now training to be a court clerk. Easier than trying to complain about unfair treatment.
Quite a few white collar jobs do not require a university education in Germany. Various kinds of clerical jobs are part of the dual vet programs.
This is, incidently, the whole point behind the introduction of the Realschule in the late 19th century. Originally, it was the school for the kids of the middle class who needed "useful" skills for "the real world" (hence the name).I.e. modern foreign languages instead of the Gymnasium's latin and ancient greek, or more practical mathematics curriculums that prepared them for clerical jobs or running a business.
A teacher once told me: “You can’t build a house with 50 architects.” That statement really stuck with me. You need trade jobs as much as the academic jobs for a functioning economy.
Today, I look at people with vocational training with the upmost respect and value the expertise and experience that come along with such a training.
I fully acknowledge that there is a need for a university education but to believe that an academic career is the only path is a dangerous misconception.
However, in Germany especially after 1968 there was a tendency to emphasize the academic track. I guess this is why my teacher - back in the early 90‘s - made the statement above.
Nowadays I see three major tracks of education at least in my industry: vocational training, duale Hochschule “dual college” and the university track.
So maybe you want to take a closer look into the duale Hochschule System as well to further broaden your understanding of the educational system in Germany. In short, duale Hochschule means that a company hires a student. The student pursues an academic program for in total 3 years, e.g. at the duale Hochschule Baden-Württemberg (DHBW). However, within these three years the student also works in the company learning the trades of his profession directly.
In the end you end up with a professionally trained academic that knows his way around in the company.
Da gebe ich ihnen vollkommen recht. Ich bin seit meinem sechzehnten Lebensjahr im Handwerk, genauer Bau und Möbeltischler. Ich habe es nie bereut einen Handwerklichen Beruf erlernt zu haben. Natürlich braucht es Akademiker. Übrigens man kann nichtmal mit einem Architekten ein Haus bauen. Gut sie Planen wie es aussehen soll. Ich hatte mal einen Architekten, der mir ständig erklärte wie ich meinen Beruf ausüben muss, die Folge war, ich übergab ihm mein Werkzeug und sagte ihm, er solle es besser machen. Gab natürlich ärger vom Chef.
“You can’t build a house with 50 architects.” - That is great!!
As for the duale Hochschule System, thank you for bringing this up. What a nice system to help prepare someone for a position while also completing their education. Not having to wait until the end of the studies to apply knowledge is a huge asset.
@@TypeAshton LOL! I was sure that would hit home with Ashton!🤣😂🤣
When I was in 11th grade at Gymnasium I was about to sign a contract for a trade job, when the boss of the company said "We don't need chiefs only, we also need Indians who fight". That sentence stuck with me and I didn't sign the contract - I didn't want to be a low level warrior who gets send to the front to die while others benefit.
@@hurtigheinz3790 Let me guess:You became either"Event-manager;"Unternehmensberater"or rapper!But last but not least you became"Harz IV!!!!!
Wow, very good content and very good explained. Only one little thing : it is Abitur, not Arbitur.🌞
And an addition: Also, if a person has no Abitur, the person could study later on, after finishing Berufsschule. And on the other hand, if a person would wish to recieve Abitur later on, as an adult or after learning the job, we have schools to do that beside you work. It's Abendschule. Like in Berlin: Berlin Kolleg.
Thanks! We often mix up 'Arbeit' and 'Abitur' with adding an extra 'r'.
@@TypeAshton 😃🙋It is a little bit of work indeed!
In Canada, the three biggest reasons I have heard why people don't want to go into or want to get out of vocational jobs are:
-The outdated belief that trades jobs are low pay.
-A general belief that only stupid people go into the trades, the trades tend to have the same opinion toward those who go to university for non-stem or professional fields. (the general opinion of why would you go to school for years for a job you can realistically do with a highschool diploma)
-The lifestyle around the trades, many trade jobs require camp work, seasonal work, or just require working in Canada's extreme weather (the temperature can range from 40C in summer to -50C in winter).
Though the schooling around trades is similar to the US, most trades are extremely well regulated when it comes to quality of work. (at least on non-residential sites). Most trades have a self-governing body that sets out minimum standards for work, and certifications needed for specific tasks. Most trades require that someone considered competent by the governing body signs off on any work completed. This competency is either usually through some mix of formal training and hands-on work experience, or through enough years of work experience. Though you can make a decent living with just a high school education in Canada, going through a trade program often comes with an increase in pay.
Since you asked for tips on how to make a similar vocational training system in the US a success, I would suggest to also start a mandatory training on the job for 2 weeks in grade 9 like we have it in Germany. Every pupil needs to decide what is his personal "dream job" and then apply for an apprenticeship for 2 weeks in that job at an employer of his choice. Schools offer help with getting such an apprenticeship but normally, you are expected to find your place yourself. After those two weeks, you have a much better insight into what actual work looks like and if your dream job is indeed the right profession for you or not and you can also speak with your classmates about their experiences. Many choose blue collar jobs there and enjoy their time which then makes them look for an actual apprenticeship in the job later when they finished school.
A second thought on that is the importance of the "dual system" where you have mandatory school for some hours (around 2 days per week) while you work in your apprenticeship for the rest of your time. That way, you learn the theoretical background of your job mostly together with others while you learn the more practical stuff mostly on the job directly.
I'd like to mention that the apprenticeships are paid! And they even standardized salaries, based on the vocation and what year you're in. While these are not binding, most employers use these as a basis and if they don't pay that standard they tend to pay more.
While these salaries are pretty low compared to the actual job, they help apprentices get used to money, helps keeping them loyal and after all gives them a feeling that their work is worth something.
I'm a US expat living in Slovenia who attended one of the US regional vocational high schools in the '80s in the New England region with a student body of ~1600 students, and can share my perspective on this.
1) The class schedule format of my school was a bi-week alternating schedule pattern
Over a 2 week span the students would attend 1 full week of ~1 hour classroom subjects (academics) and then the following week would spend all day for all 5 days in their chosen vocational major (shop). With this flip flop scheduling, there were effectively 2 student groups being taught in an interleaved manner: one group was in the classroom while at the same time the other group was in their chosen shop doing hands on work, with the next week both groups switch.
This scheduling structure resulted in multiple benefits:
1.a) Classroom teachers and vocational teachers were able to teach 2x the number of students without doubling their classroom sizes, since they would teach the same lessons for two consecutive weeks to two different groups of students
1.b) Every week the academic subject teachers were able to assign a larger homework assignment on Friday, knowing the student would have 9 days to complete the work before they returned to class.
1.c) Vocational training was more in the format of a job, since you were in your "shop" for an entire school day rather than just a 1 hour slot and then switching subjects. Most vocational training involves setup and cleanup activities as well as subject specific practical work. Having the full day meant that your setup was in the morning, throughout the day you did your practical work, with cleanup only at the end just like the end of a work day.
Additionally, a training task could be scaled to require multiple days to complete with work in progress left in situ, since that student group would be in the shop for 5 consecutive days.
For example: Students who were learning plumbing would be able to get out their tools and materials in the morning, and work throughout the day cutting, and connecting pipes for their assignment throughout the week (perhaps plumbing a mocked up house, a task that could take up to 5 days of collaborative work).
1.d) academic training in your vocation would be one of your 1 hour blocks during your academic week, taught by one of the shop instructors.
1.e) "shop" student counts could be higher than classroom since most of the tasks are "hands on" work requiring supervision, not lecture.
For most of my "computer science" 4 years, each quarter the instructor would hand us a list of all the assignments for that quarter and when they were due, indicate the filing cabinet held the details, and let us go about our own self discovery while being a resource for guidance. At least for me an a few of my contemporaries this resulted in doing all the semester's assignments in the first week or so, and then spending the rest of our time writing our own programs (including games) with full support of the instructors.
2) Related vocation topics were grouped and together, and worked on collaborative tasks
For example: There was a grouping called "building trades" that included carpentry, cabinet making, plumbing, electrical wiring, etc. There was another grouping called "Electronics" that included electrical engineering, software, robotics (yes, in the 80s). Or a group called "hospitality" that included Retail management (running an on-campus public store), Culinary Arts (cooking related, including feeding the student body lunch every day), and even an on-site McDonalds run by students!
Moreover these trades collaborated in overlapping projects: For example: A group of students in the robotics shop might be building a new robot. They could "order" build services from the machinists or welding groups for some of the fabrication. Or in the example above for the plumber and the mock house, it would have been the carpentry students who built that house in the prior week. And then after (or even while) the plumbing students were working on it the electrician students would be wiring it.
3) Academic class subjects were correlated with vocational studies:
How often have you heard "Algebra or Geometry, when will I ever need this?" In my school experience, these math topic problem assignments were often directly associated with one trade or another. For example (trig problem): A machinist wants to set up a reference 22° incline for a part on a milling machine, and has a 10 cm block with two 1 cm metal rods at the bottom spaced 8 cm apart. What spacing should be put under one of rods to achieve 22°
4) Hugely important: 9th grade students spend 3/4 of their first year sampling 1-3 weeks of different vocations, doing a small project in each, before finalizing their vocational selection.
This to me is at the heart of what school should be: exposing students to concepts they didn't know existed, in a direct hands on manner.
Personal Example: I arrived at the school as a 9th grader knowing I wanted to major in computer science having attended at that point 2 years of after school classes at that school already. However, I still had to go through the discovery track. One 2 week block of that discovery track involved printing my own personalized and bound notepads. 1 week of graphics design and computer aided typesetting followed by 1 week of production on offset 4 color printing presses including making the plates, doing the print run, sheering and finally binding the edges. I also did a couple of weeks in auto mechanics group, learning how tear down and reassemble a 2 stroke engine and how to fix dents and paint a car (I still remember my first day in the auto body class from the shock I received. The instructor had us group of ~12 students in front of a car while he talked about what we would do to "fix all these dents" all while tapping a hammer against his hand. When one student finally asked "which dents", the teacher proceeded to hit the car with the hammer! Shocking everyone, and into the resulting silence he said "THESE dents".
9th graders by age and experience may not have a strong basis to make a choice on vocation if they have never experienced some of the possibilities. Even though I still ended up in the computer science group, I still greatly appreciate all the trades and activities I was able to experience.
5) Apprenticeship collaboration opportunities existed for 12 graders
Because of the 1 week class / 1 week shop schedule, there were industry paid apprenticeship opportunities for excelling students by the 12 grade. In these programs, rather than attending shop during your scheduled week you might spend part of all of your week working out on an actual job site, workshop, or office, as an apprentice. Your education would still be supervised and progress checked by the instructor with a strong possibility of a job offer at the end.
6) This school was not incompatible with also going to university, though it certainly reduced the immediate need.
Students completed their 12th year and graduated with two certificates: High school diploma and a vocational certificate. They completed school with marketable skills and as this was a public school as opposed to a university, no debt.
As it was I chose to go to university after high school, all ready having strong software development skills and training in large task self directed work, but only attended for 2 years before joining a start up tech company as employee #3, full time.
7) My school wasn't "local", it covered a region of 16 towns, each of which had their own classic high school.
I had a 1 hour bus ride each way to attend this regional school. Even though it was a public school, I had to apply and be accepted in order to attend. Additionally, the school always had a nuclear option of expulsion back to the local high school for students who, for whatever reason, were incompatible with the curriculum format offered. This option was rarely used but available if no other recourse existed.
8) There's no reason "vocational training" can't include so called white collar jobs:
Any job is a vocation, so this format could provide foundational training for doctor, lawyer, business management, or any other white collar work. It is just the bias of "those people who get their hands dirty are worth less than those who make decisions" elitism.
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Conclusion: Aside from inertia, how hard "change" always is, and the perceptional bias of looking down on vocational workers, I really don't understand why this type of school is not more prevalent. Well, there is of course the monetary aspect: Universities want income! Additionally USA school funding is often tied to property taxes, creating a financial disconnect between the education and the employers since where you live isn't where you work, due to among other things zoning rules.
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OK, this was way too long. Sorry, your video pushed one of my buttons....