Before I get sued... Will we ever see the 28k 617 Mysterium Monstro sensor from Red? 👀 ============================= Join our Discord Channel💬 ► discord.gg/3aeNPU7GHu Twitter ► twitter.com/frame_voyager Instagram ► instagram.com/framevoyager/ TikTok ► www.tiktok.com/@framevoyager Join our RUclips channel 📺 ►ruclips.net/channel/UCmXGDFnFh95WlZjhwmA5aeQjoin
28k at even 1fps time lapse would generate more data than anything currently on market could handle for recording. at least that i am aware of. it is a lot of data. personally i am quite happy with 6k, and rendering projects out at 4k or 1080p
Right? The data load would be insane. Unless they figured out something like Blackmagic did with the 12k and had a lossless compression or something like that
That's my take on it, it was technologically not feasible outside of the lab (lab scale can encompass a very large supercomputer if need be). That scale of sensor, or the "let's just go big" approach had a lot of other systems that would need to catch up for it to work. Things like the storage size and speed, the on board image processor, the memory-to-processor data links, and even auxiliary things like computer workstation software / hardware (for editing the raw footage) all had to catch up. These tech limitations are why we've seen a slower transition to miniaturization for certain high resolutions. Action cams made the jump to 2k, 4k, and now are slowly going beyond that as other pieces of the puzzle catch up, compared with the advancement for the large frame cameras. Not to mention that they lacked one key aspect, who is the customer? Hollywood was slow to adopt digital 4k - the pipeline costs for handling 28k footage would turn them away. The only people at the time that would use such a sensor are NASA and the NSA/CIA. If you have no customer pool, you don't really have a product.
We might already be processing 28K because "28K" only tells us the horizontal lines, but not the vertical lines. What matters is the overall megapixels per frame per second.
@@fayenotfaye Dude ... It's not just processing ... You also need the requred amount of RAM for that step snd also where the F you gonna store 28k RED raw content 👁👄👁
@@mysticmarble94 a 4TB hard drive is like $100 now. Storage is so cheap, the bitrate required to play it back and edit it in real time would require you to move it to an SSD. Also about ram, there are computers with up to a terabyte of ram available to consumers, iPads these days have 16 gigs.
RED has always done dubious marketing. A great early example is the Scarlet promise of 3k for $3k. It got them plenty of deposits and when the camera finally shipped, it did at around 2x time the cost and not even remotely close to the planned ship date. I have learned not to trust their future products since that time. They are a marketing force, keeping buzz around their existing products so you eventually get impatient and buy what they have now. Funnily enough, the company that delivered better on the 3k for $3k promise was BMD.
There's a reason for the crazy wide format of the theoretical 28k sensor. It's actually multiple dies of silicon placed next to each other. Someone convinced RED that these dies could be placed close enough together that they could be combined to act as 1 sensor.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that how Arri made the Alexa LF and 65? The A2X and A3X sensors composed of 2 and 3 ALEV III sensors? I'm not a silicon engineer so I'm curious how it works.
How did someone "convinced" Red? That's what Arri have been doing with the Alexa's sensor. Exactly what they've been doing to produce medium and IMAX format Alexa cameras. With all due respect, I'm a little confused, just like Carl. Also, most CPU companies use the same exact technique for their own silicon use. Why wouldn't it work for optical sensors?...
I am glad that someone still remembers this part of history in digital cinema development and even keeps an organized record of it. Thanks for the good work.
@@FrameVoyager What a fun channel for old timers like myself and what a valuable asset for the younger generation filmmakers! 👍👍👍 Really appreciate it.
It's not about resolution, it's about dynamic range, that's why the Alexa even it wasn't 4k, has dominated the market for the last ten years and with the new Alexa Super 35, they will continue dominating the market.
the new Alexa S35 was introduced precisely because they could no longer keep up with the resolution. Streaming services like Netflix, Disney+, Amazon etc - they all require 4K capture resolution as a minimum and Arri was losing sales because of that.
@@notsorandumusername That isn't "not keeping up", that's stupid executives that don't know anything about cameras making decisions on the technical requirements for shooting. Nobody with half a brain would say that the Alexa isn't good because it's not 4k.
@@TechnoBabble But nobody with half a brain will say the Arri Alexa LF or 65 with their 4K+ resolution isn't good either. Why then, are so many people almost personally offended by the mere thought of having a resolution of 4K and beyond? *And why is this **_never_** a problem when it comes to large format film?* I have never heard someone complaining that 65mm film or 15perf70 imax is 'too sharp'. Or that the executives who approved those formats were 'stupid' or 'don't know about technical requirements for shooting'. Yet when it comes to a _digital_ camera the notion of having more resolution is somehow outrageous to some. It's completely incomprehensible. People are buying ever larger screens, you can't even buy a 1080p tv anymore and even though some naysayers will deny it, we will absolutely move to even bigger screens with 8K resolution. Your 2k isn't going to look all that nice on that. And I remember discussion threads from 20 years ago were the same naysayers were saying nobody needed HDTV because 'DVD is good enough' and 'no one will see the difference' as they were all reasoning from their 28inch CRT tv's and couldn't fathom those screens would die out in less than a decade.
@@TechnoBabble But nobody with half a brain will say the Arri Alexa LF or 65 with their 4K+ resolution isn't good either. Why then, are so many people almost personally offended by the mere thought of having a resolution of 4K and beyond? And why is this never a problem when it comes to large format film? I have never heard someone complaining that 65mm film or 15perf70 imax is 'too sharp'. Or that the executives who approved those formats were 'stupid' or 'don't know about technical requirements for shooting'. Yet when it comes to a digital camera the notion of having more resolution is somehow outrageous to some. It's completely incomprehensible. People are buying ever larger screens, you can't even buy a 1080p tv anymore and even though some naysayers will deny it, we will absolutely move to even bigger screens with 8K resolution. Your 2k isn't going to look all that nice on that. And I remember discussion threads from 20 years ago were the same naysayers were saying nobody needed HDTV because 'DVD is good enough' and 'no one will see the difference' as they were all reasoning from their 28inch CRT tv's and couldn't fathom those screens would die out in less than a decade.
its more due to the fact that studios wernt willing to master shit in 4k because it took more time and money to render, computers and society have mostly made it so p much every film now is mastered in 4k
As much as I like the contrasty, gritty, RED look, I just really couldn't get behind a camera company that used "proprietary" media that was just basic ass hardware marked up to high heaven. I understand cost of entry, but that's completely different from flat out abuse and greed. And as we've seen, all you have to do is create a great product, give people options to run their show, and people will get behind it. Canon, Sony, and BM are testaments to that.
Absolutely! I think that they would be held at a lot higher regard if they didn't resort to some of the scammy business practices. But I think we can thank Jim Jannard for that mess and the patent lawsuit mess too
@@FrameVoyager Honestly I'm still baffled how the Red compressed RAW patent still holds up, because, like many other RED claims, they didn't invent a lot of the stuff, and some of the stuff is so generalized that it's actually been crippling to the market. For example they did not invent RAW compression; however, they did pack the sensor Bayer mosaic pixels together for all three channels and apply a DCT wavelet compression of some form to it, and then unpacked the result, and that aspect was indeed clever and innovative. My issue is that packing the mosaic channels and applying a DCT compression is not the only way one can compress the RAW sensor data. Yet their patent was vague enough to not only cover ALL mosaic patterns, not just the Bayer pattern which is all they use, but also all forms of compression of this type of data. While the earlier I could see being an issue if someone used a DCT compression on any other sensor pattern, as that is basically the same underlying technique; however, covering all other types of compression is absolutely a massive overstep, because while a DCT wavelet style compression is going to be one of the most effective forms of compression,as we know from the popularity of Jpegs on the internet, their patent prevented RLE compression as well, and while that might not be as small and efficient as DCT it's still massively better than completely uncompressed data. Yet no one can use it or any other form of compression on ANY mosiac sensor data without infringement potential with RED. That , to me, is the reason the patent shouldn't hold up, yet RED keeps managing to hold on despite the wording of patent law saying this shouldn't be possible. Anyhow I know I got a bit soap boxy, but the thing is patents were meant to protect ones innovation, and when they are weaponized through vague language to do the opposite and instead prevent innovation then it angers me, because it's the opposite of their intended purpose.
That gritty look, to me, is what kept me away from RED, in addition to the proprietary media (until DSMC3). As a former RED owner, it seriously limited the tonal and textural control I had in post. I wanted the high dynamic range and resolution, but had to fight with the camera to make people look bright and flattering because of the camera's natural look and DSMC2's heavy fixed pattern noise didn't help. I think if anything, the rise of BM has displayed how DPs really care more about versatility, image, functionality, and latitude in post than Ks, dynamic range and a dramatic look out-of-box.
Getting a sensor that BIG from a batch of silicone wafer mustve extremely hard, especially with minimal defect, high speed lenses would also be an issue since most 617 lenses are slower than that of medium format. however that 645 sensor might be the next step for red, even wider than the current 40mm wide monstro
Yeah, nearly a wafer-scale CMOS sensor.. I am not sure if even in military satellite tech this has been done with virtually limitless budget, not to speak of a private sector product. Yields would be atrocious if possible at all..
They could have also glued several sensors/dies together but Arri is the only company I'm aware of capable of sourcing/making it. Kodak used to glue dies together in some of their sensors in the 90s. However, as far as I remember those sensors looked good (colors matching) only if the dies were adjacent pieces from the wafer (or not too far away from each other) I guess nowadays you can use a sort of a LUT or something to fix it but in the 90s you had to fix the mismatch in post.
@@hbp_ even if you were to glue them together from S35 sensors it would take about 21 of those (7*3). It's simply impossible with todays semiconductor tech.
I think that it was and still is technologically impossible to create a sensor die on a piece of silicon that large. I think that the manufacturing yield was so low that they would have to charge more than Arri for the camera. It is most likely that they thought it was possible since astronomers have such high-resolution sensors (e.g. the Dark Energy Camera with its 500Megapixel resolution and $50M price tag).
I have a sensor that is literally a whole wafer, about 120 x 150 mm (specs are low though - 50um pixels, 5 MP). Its used for XRAY imaging. Larger xray sensing surfaces exists as well, but they got multiple large dies placed next to each other.
Absolutely. This is beyond the reticule limit for basically any manufacturing process even today. Shoot, even the V-Raptor's sensor is two stitched together, and that's modern tech.
@@grumpybunny the "stitch" occurs at litography stage, the RED sensor is still single die, not two!! I dont know why so many people think they just took two or three sensors and glued them together, lol. It is not that way. Multi exposure was used on large sensors at least 25-30 years back.
@@cameramaker Yields on stitched sensors is probably the reason why basically everyone seems to live with sensors not exceeding ~645 dimensions and instead takes small gaps between sensors.
I wrote a paper about this when I was at university back in 08. Red also said, if you could somehow compare it, it would have higher resolution than the human eye lol.
@@FrameVoyager Agreed. The point is once you make a camera which has a higher resolution than the human eye you start seeing things which make you terrified and which make you question everything you have been told and thus reality.
Anytime I hear people whinge about resolution, I just remember that skyfall, a gorgeous film and the first James Bond to be shot on digital, is "only" 2.8k. Nobody notices, because the shots look so good and the camera captures those pixels so nicely. Even if you were pixel peeping it would be hard to tell
hahaha! Yeah, in cinema you don't care. It's more about how the image looks. ARRI has really only just moved into 4k for real. But they are still considered to have some of hte best images. A lot of it has to do with the quality you can get out of every pixel on your sensor and your dynamic range. If you get all that right incredibly well, you can upscale just fine. But yeah, most people wouldn't be able to see the difference at all
@@FrameVoyager I lament the fact that in consumer cameras we just kind of skipped over 1440p as a middle ground between 1080 and 4k. If you have a monitor in that res, you know the pixels aren't particularly noticeable and you get much better performance than a 4k monitor. Shame we never employed the same idea with video, not sure if there's a greater reason for that beyond "4k is much more marketable than 'QuadHD' or '2.7(?)k'".
@@thatgreenfur6584 to a point I get it. 4k is a much easier marketing point than 1440p. At the end of the day always comes down to what's going to make money
@@FrameVoyager My dream camera is a simple cube with a sensor, plenty of attachment points & input/output ports for video and audio, and a a max res of 1440p with great dynamic range. But that's basically unmarketable to 99% of people though, I think.
remember when RED tried to sell HDRx? The largest digital image sensors are made for telescopes. The largest that could theoretically be used as a handheld camera are digital x-ray sensor boards. Which a company named "LargeSense" turned into a large format digital back for a really high price - and they can do video. It's not high resolution, it's giant pixels.
I shot 617 film for 25 years. I think the cost of manufacturing the 617 sensor is the problem. Processing the footage would be difficult. I won’t be worrying about it in my lifetime!
Oh that's pretty cool! And yeah, I'd agree. But they said it would be out in 2010 😂 I just don't think it was even a real product or that sensor tech just evolved and made it irrelevant
Does anyone else remember how vehemently those even remotely implying that Red didn't make their own sensors were mocked and made fun of in their message boards.
haha yep! And they didn't even come close to making them. Which to me is the dumbest lie because literally no one makes their own sensors minus a few companies. Why lie?
@@FrameVoyager Word! Also, I didn't know about that scam with the 10X markup of slightly modified memory cards! Wow, Ted is a real piece of Schilowitz.
I still remember how around 1997 some company was hyping “hypercomputing” which was supposed to be FPGA-based “supercomputer on your desktop” stuff with their own OS etc. Despite very impressive large desktop cases, nothing ever materialized.
I've never bought a RED product, and likely never will. Between the stuff they pulled with their memory cards, to the strangle hold they have on the industry with the internal RAW recording patent, they're a bunch of assholes who only care about money and nobody can change my mind on that. The resolution wars are also something that I refuse to get behind, having used Alexas on my narrative shoots. I doubt there is a single filmmaker on earth who needs more than 4k on their shoots, and even then only for streaming requirements.
What always troubled me about Red was them keeping their users on a constant upgrade path. People would dish out 20-30k for the latest model only to have the resale value tank shortly after when Red announced a slightly better model. Many times, the newer models would be rushed out - without proper testing - leaving owners in the lurch if defects were found. They tried to follow the Apple strategy of keeping accessories in their ecosystem and creating a cultish following. The cult has died down a bit. But Red still seems to suffer from quality control problems(The Split sensor problem with the V-raptor)
I assume there would have been a permanent anamorphic lens attached, but if you are always stretching the light that much, I doubt the image would have been any better than a smaller sensor and good glass…. 645 sensor would have been sweet though.
🤔 yeah I kept trying to figure out how the mounting system would even work for this. Granted, RED was also making their own lenses at this point too and that was a fail
Lenses used on large format cameras (alpa, linhof, rodenstock, schneider kreuznach, etc.) could have covered the size of the sensor as it would have been smaller than 8x10 film plates. And I'm sure the 645 format is not a concept of the past just yet. It's still produced by Sony for Phase One and Hasselblad, the video specs are terrible at the moment (only Hasselblad offers it on their H6D system), but it could change in the future with sensors evolution. It'd be amazing!!
Wow. Thank you for collecting so much info for people like me who only knew the modern RED cameras! Now I understand why one of my friends do hates so much RED, lol! I’ll keep rocking with my Pocket 6K Pro. Cheers
No problem! It's been a fun series to work on finding all the random defunct cameras out there! Just released another one and have a whole list of them we are getting to here soon
I own a Komodo, and it really is the camera I’ve been waiting for. That global shutter is beautiful, 6K is the perfect resolution for a UHD Master, and of course RAW. I don’t think I would trade it for any other camera on the market (that I know of), including an Arri or a High End RED. I was searching for a used Digital Bolex right before the Komodo was announced. There is a type of ‘magic’ to the global shutter. But I’ve always been sensitive to motion and motion rendering.
@@christianjadot4459 Thanks for your comment, Christian. I have watched many tutorial after seeing this video and even went to the BSC in London, UK and I have to tell you that I am officially in love with the Komodo!
I would never use the 28K camera due to it's extremely wide format. Audiences would have to move their heads left to right to scan the screen in order to see everything. It would be an exhausting viewing experience. At very least, audiences would have to scan left to right with their eyes to see everything. When I watch a movie, I want to relax, not work at something as basic as seeing. 8K and 12K in more traditional ratios will sell.
hahaha it would be weird for sure. Was kind of confused by how they were going to even make the sensor work in the first place. More than likely wasn't real haha
@@FrameVoyager Thanks... yeah, what kind of lens for extreme wide format? I think you are right, it was a publicity stunt. If I had a spare 100 grand laying around, I would buy a Red camera with all the goodies and a drone too.
Not surprising they didn’t develop their own sensors, I figured that was a given. I mean what kind of start up would make their own sensors? It requires crazy amounts of r&d, time and infrastructure to make your own sensors from scratch when you’re just trying to make a camera.
There was the theoretical quantum module issue.They also knew something else. A 28k camera would be hugely expensive.Once they saw how expensive their camera would be, they had to abandon ship.
@@FrameVoyager I have noticed that at between 4k and higher, some people start seeing or may see ghosts. So at 8k higher those who think they are seeing such might be using higher resolutions than their vision can handle. It is not supernatural vision, just natural vision. So at 28 k, just imagine what we might be able to see.
Less vaporware than a highly speculative preliminary hardware concept, in my view. My guess is that this lightweight design seen in promotional materials was actually only the sensor block which would have been tethered to some much more substantial piece of hardware that would actually do all of the processing and capture. Think the Alexa-M and Venice Rialto. Otherwise the design would simply be too ridiculous, even for Red in their fast and loose days. This would also go a good way towards explaining why the product was cancelled, given the limited applications for such a tethered camera system.
This explanation would also solve the media question. Some extreme SSD RAID solution, unencumbered by a traditional camera body, would get the job done.
Absolutely agree! Some good points. It's just hard to tell as this was in their "fast and loose days" and I really attribute most of it to Jim Jannard's business practices. It was the same thing at Oakley, which works well in that industry but not in an industry where we rely on gear for our jobs. Him leaving seems to have stabilized them a bit imho
@@FrameVoyager for sure, and something I left unstated in my theory is that, if I’m right, they were certainly letting people THINK that that was the whole camera.
Dang, I need that camera for my no-budget indie film! It's the only one that will capture the images I want. Better cut my lighting-budget to fit this in...
I'm not a fan of RED... ever since they promised 4K for 4K... (The RED scarlet camera back in the day) and then the camera came out and cost 6K and then 8K if you wanted any necessary accessories. Don't lie to the customers.
Exactly. Just doesn't make you feel sorry for them at all. They make decent cameras but ruin it with all of the BS that most trained video/film people will see right through.
@@Seansds i would say you win because r5c is a cool camera but RED control wireless video and camera control including wireless lens control (except zoom) is so bloody good :)
I'm always stuck between loving Red and absolutely hating that company. I think they get away with a lot, I think their cameras are incredibly unreliable and even for our industry, I think their pricing for some of their service options and replacement parts are predatory. That said, I think that Red is a company that gives a lot of people a price option that suits their production. That said if I'm ever given a choice between a High-end Sony or an Arri compared to a Red, I'm always gonna pick Sony or Arri any day of the week
I like how we're going to 8k and 28k camcorders but movie theaters still project at 2K. Why don't we at least have a 8k OLED HDR Theater? But we have cameras that can make stuff for concept theaters like that?
I am almost finished with the abandoned camera playlist and its been an absolutely fascinating series. I love the history and the tech behind it all, especially when compaired and contrasted to what we have now. The one nitpick I have about the series, as a telecommunications engineer, is your constant use of spelling out C M O S instead of just saying Cee•Moss. 😂
The main 2 problems with this would be: 1) The storage requirements for every minute of footage would be insane. 2) The hardware requirements to process 28k clips. These would an issue today, nevermind a decade & a half ago.
@@FrameVoyager to be honest, watching all these clips you’ve curated makes me so much less inspired by RED and less aspirationally excited about having one in the future lol. Maybe I shouldn’t have checked how the sausage was made lol.
@@definingslawek4731 yeahh... It sucks because they make decent cameras but they mix that with being super dubious in their marketing. For no apparent benefit
The problem besides it being dumb, is that we just don't have media fast enough to record 28k video. I own a RED myself and think this is way overkill.
Exactly! But honestly, you just don't need 28k. Plenty proving resolution only does so much for an image. Can you imagine the write speed you'd need? haha
@@FrameVoyager In 2016 Red was charging $4k for 1TB sata SSDs when higher end 1TB nvme SSDs were $600. A number of the recommended SSDs that meet the requirements for PS5 expansion could do 28K at 60 FPS at MQ. There’s a $1500 one that is 8TB and could record for 20 minutes.
the fact they litterally say they have no idea what they are doing and are so focused on resolution over actual camera quality proves red cameras are made just for tech bros like linus tech tips and not for people that are using cameras for actual artistic purposes
I had completely forgotten about that hilarious rendering for their 28K camera - the design didn't make sense back then as it does now - and, seriously, what are you gonna do with 28K? At this stage, 8K alone is being used as the "negative" for 4K (you shoot and color grade in 8K for a 4K output - that way, you get a sharper image in spite of the amount of abuse it went through at the grading stage). 6:54 Yeah, I remember when Red was pushing around this idea that you always have to increase resolution to get "more cinematic" images. I mean, they still do now, but back then it was kind of their mantra, as if resolution was the only thing that mattered. Then Arri released the Alexa and dominated the market for more than 10 years with a camera that was made for 2K output and now they are about to release their first S35 4K machine. Red in the meantime has finally come around to put internal NDs in their cameras like anyone else, after only 14 years in the business.
I've just watched this episode. Fun series! Lots of stuff I've read about before, but some new nuggets, and nicely presented. I'd seen that slide from their presentation about the 28K camera before. But just now noticed the line that says "RED mount, Linof Mount, Alpa Mount". That's weird! a) is that a misspelling of Linhof and Alpha? Bizarre they would misspell those. b) as if RED camera were ever going to get Sony Alpha mounts?! A or E.
Eventually though, I can imagine it being possible. Imagine instead of say gigabytes today such as you know how most phones have 256gigbyte storage? I can imagine that being 256terabytes in the future and so on and so forth. It wasn’t that uncommon for laptop storage to be counted in megabytes not too long ago
I own a RED by myself but I dislike the marketing strategy of them totally. I dislike how they proceed in the V raptor stitched sensor issue term. I dislike how they only talk about what’s coming up it’s gonna be big but they are quite if someone has a real problem and asks for help. Phil holland stated in RED user forum that the monstro sensor is so huge, that’s the reason for the price After the stitched sensor problem with the v raptor RED stated that they have always stitched they LF sensors and there was never a problem After a user mentioned that in the forum, no one replied. No red officials no Phil holland. All quite. But it’s it’s coming to hype something, they are the first. That all make me thinking about, if my next cam probably should be an Alexa.
I'm just speculating here but maybe RED got inspired by stuff like the Seitz Roundshot 6x17 - it has a similar design and (at that time)a high resolution sensor. Maybe they thought they could acquire the sensor like they did with the FORZA sensor - but the problem was that it's a scanning back meaning there is no singe sensor covering the whole frame. Even if they could have pulled it off the bandwidth would not have been manageable. Maybe now it could have worked with NVME SSD bandwidth etc.
Could be! I really think it's likely to be a marketing ploy. But I always like to think this stuff might have been built in some secret dark corner of the company that only a few ever saw haha
Red is just a marketing company and that’s why hypster like MKBHD uses them even though he doesn’t need them to film any of his product reviews. In fact his reviews are mostly just open-box and hands-on experience then reviews
lmao....this is some Ronald Regan Star Wars era level of B.S. from RED. Was RED hoping that the rest of the companies would panic and go broke trying to develop a 28k sensor?
I mean... They really spurred on a lot of the companies around this time and caused some to bankrupt. While I might not agree with how they do things as a company, it wasn't the worst business strategy, but I think they are starting to slow down a bit.
I think the 12k ursa not doing that great in the market under the fact most people don’t need or want 12k for a most projects will hopefully give Red the idea that anything over 10k right now even over 8k isn’t needed. Sure make a camera with a 12k sensor BUT make it downsample into a 6k or 8k image we don’t need more than that. I hardly see the point of 8k apart from down sampling.
They really marketed the URSA 12k wrong. In my opinion, it's a multi resolution camera that shoots full sensor 12K, 8k, and 4K which gives you flexibility. But really that's it's best feature, not the 12k
I think also 28k is not needed, just like nobody needed their phone. So probably just focused on making some profit and improving products. Camera’s they have now are just fine for the cinema of today.
Didn't ALL movies that utilised digital SFX or colour grading go to 2K Digital Intermediate before 4K and higher became viable, and were accordingly released as 2K prints? I watched the Lord of the Rings in a movie theatre again a few years back (after watching Interstellar in 4K etc.), and it looked absolutely gorgeous! This was the standard release resolution of those movies shot on "hard to match" analog film. I can imagine that they were so obviously adamant about building their own sensors to avoid anyone figuring out who to contract to compete in the 4K market right away...
I recall hearing about an alleged "28K" sensor being developed, and all I could do was laugh my ass off. Whatever drugs everyone at Red were doing at the time, I really wish they had shared with the rest of us...
If any of this had been true, the military would have bought it up, and prevented its sale to the general public, and ensured it never saw the light of day.
Red makes decent products Why do they need to go ruin their reputation by saying stupid s*** like "This drive is great" while knowing it's garbage or "we can shoot 16 stops of dynamic range" when they can't. Like cmon, you have a good camera, focus on what's good, improve what's not good and move on.
When he said 2k what did he mean? If 3840 x 2160 is “4k” cause the longest side is almost 4000 pixels Then surely 1920 x 1080 is “2k”, but he said 1080p and 2k as if they’re separate resolutions. Maybe it’s the thing where gamers call 1440p 2k for some reason
@@FrameVoyager this documentary has taught me that a company should be very careful with their communications to the public. When I wasn’t aware of any of these clips my brain automatically filled in what the RED corporation is and what it looks like. It was some kind of state of the art cyberpunk type monolith in my imagination. And if they didn’t say anything to the contrary, I would have continued to believe that 😂 gotta maintain the mystery. Also how did I not know the founder is the guy from Oakley lol. Great video, I love the energy of the intro and outro, so mysterious ✨
@@FrameVoyager A lot of people use 2k and 1080p interchangeably. And like DCI 4k, DCI 2k also exists, at 2048 wide. The reason being that TVs and monitors are sold by the vertical resolution, and Cinema operates on horizontal resolution because the vertical resolution changes with aspect ratio. It's annoying and confusing when the two different systems are used side by side.
REDs whole deal that resolution is the deciding imaging factor has been BS from the beginning. I highly recommend everyone watch Steve Yedlin‘s Resolution Demo.
The mid to late 2000s were such a dogshit time for consumer level digital video cameras. Look at how awful the presentations and news segments are compared to what's being sold, a 4K camera vs sub-720p heavily artifacted files!
Why not just shoot it on 67 different 4K sensors and stitch it together in post production to get a 28 second clip at the same cost of 14 only historically expensive blockbusters?
A great image means nothing vs a great story/acting/directing etc...which can be done on an iPhone or even VHS or 8mm camera. We are so inundated with great quality images that it's basically becoming standard and essentially a non-factor.
A story is all that really matters, everything else has to be just passable enough not to distract from the story. If anything breaks your suspension of disbelief, you fail as a storyteller. Right now there are plenty of cameras out there that will work great and the vast majority of the audience will never know or care what was shot on what.
I feel like Red cameras are such a meme nowdays, the only time you really see them is when a coorperation wants to spend money on something nicer, but can't quite afford an Arri cam
Another great video. But as curious as I was about this when I was a baby filmmaker, I quickly realized it was a joke. Tongue in cheek marketing ploy at best
😂 that's awesome! Yeah, pulling from a lot of old video sources for these. Been cool to hear from people like you who were actually there for all of this!
@@FrameVoyager I figured I should reply from my personal account from now on. I was there at RED in the early days 2006 - 2010. I find it amusing that something that was announced 14 years ago still gets people worked up. Good for views I guess. I worked the early RED trade shows and was a contractor. I did the merchandising for NAB and IBC 2007. Nothing like having a attendee start yelling at you for having a 4k camera at $18k when they had just bought a Viper system. I would usually say "then I guess it isn't your camera ". RED certainly woke up an industry.
That's awesome! And it is quiet funny, people love docudramas like this in other industries so I thought I'd try it out in this one. Haha and I bet that was interesting! People get a little crazy over this stuff for sure. I have nothing personal against RED and I totally agree they WOKE up a camera industry in a BIG way. We wouldn't have the ARRI Alexa! Just from researching early on and combing through some of this, I know every company isn't fully transparent, just wish they could have been a bit more early on as it didn't really seem to make much difference. And even the RED MAG issue that even Linus Tech Tips pointed out kinda hurts the reputation. But nothing but respect for how quickly they created a camera company like this, one in a billion chance to do it the way they did and that at least should be commended!
@@FrameVoyager Yes you are correct!! Never hear people talking fondly about the Arri D20 or 21, or Panavision Genesis. As a public facing person working for RED it was quite a interesting dynamic. I left before the Epic shipped so I am out of the loop on the cards etc. I have worked with R3D files ever since it began. I am looking at footage right now, and don't understand the gritty comments. It is all in the grading IMO. RED was originally criticized for being too soft.
It's so expensive if you look at blackmagic 12k the price the resolution I think much better. 28k we don't have anything technology at the moment in the world . Even we don't have 12k on tv . Maximum is 4K hd
@@FrameVoyager it's a good marketing strategy coz at the time it was thought that resolution determined picture quality but now we know that there's so so much more. The algorithms in the background that determine details like colour science etc . In the mobile phone arena the phones that take the best picture have camera's with 12 megapixels. Even though Sony and Samsung have developed larger megapixel sensors for mobile phones.. the 12Megapixel phones like the iPhone and Google pixel, Still outshine the rest. . These two companies (Google and Apple) have developed great algorithms to produce great pictures and videos. For a long time Google used the same sensor for several models of it's phone's but the newer versions has better picture quality because with increased processing power they could add to more complexity to their algorithm and produce better results than the previous years. So the larger sensor game is a losing race. The higher the pixels in a sensor the more processing power needed to run it through the company's proprietary algorithm. . Even if the image is Raw it still undergoes processing through an algorithm. Raw footage/pictures actually require more processing power, because more information is left and the file size is large coz of more data being processed and saved. . You'd need a monster of a processor to handle 28k footage, that increases the power requirements and cooling. Plus with the increased Data you need large storage, 1TB storage wouldn't cut it. Raw 8K footage weighs in at 121.5 GB per minute, with a full hour of footage resulting in a giant 7.29 TB file. what about 28k. . So you can make a 28k sensor but it'll be too expensive to build a camera for said sensor. You'll need a super powerful custom processor and super fast and large storage. Faster and larger than is currently available. . If it's not fast enough you won't be able to record in real time there will be major lagging and if you don't have larg storage you'll be recording seconds per SD card.
does anyone else see a backwards car headlamp with handles and fancy extra junk glued to it or is that just me? Well, i guess after a trip to the auto store i too can make a 28K prototype.
Before I get sued... Will we ever see the 28k 617 Mysterium Monstro sensor from Red? 👀
=============================
Join our Discord Channel💬 ► discord.gg/3aeNPU7GHu
Twitter ► twitter.com/frame_voyager
Instagram ► instagram.com/framevoyager/
TikTok ► www.tiktok.com/@framevoyager
Join our RUclips channel 📺 ►ruclips.net/channel/UCmXGDFnFh95WlZjhwmA5aeQjoin
😂 this is potentially become meme material
😅
28k at even 1fps time lapse would generate more data than anything currently on market could handle for recording. at least that i am aware of. it is a lot of data. personally i am quite happy with 6k, and rendering projects out at 4k or 1080p
Right? The data load would be insane. Unless they figured out something like Blackmagic did with the 12k and had a lossless compression or something like that
I’m happy to watch 720p or even 480p if the story worth it !
@@Sorennn94 if that is all that is available then i will do that for some things.
That's my take on it, it was technologically not feasible outside of the lab (lab scale can encompass a very large supercomputer if need be). That scale of sensor, or the "let's just go big" approach had a lot of other systems that would need to catch up for it to work. Things like the storage size and speed, the on board image processor, the memory-to-processor data links, and even auxiliary things like computer workstation software / hardware (for editing the raw footage) all had to catch up.
These tech limitations are why we've seen a slower transition to miniaturization for certain high resolutions. Action cams made the jump to 2k, 4k, and now are slowly going beyond that as other pieces of the puzzle catch up, compared with the advancement for the large frame cameras.
Not to mention that they lacked one key aspect, who is the customer? Hollywood was slow to adopt digital 4k - the pipeline costs for handling 28k footage would turn them away. The only people at the time that would use such a sensor are NASA and the NSA/CIA. If you have no customer pool, you don't really have a product.
@@kylek29 NASA usually goes more for high frame rates than pixel count. but depends on the use case.
God I can only imagine how long rendering a 28K video would take even with today’s power house processors. And they were trying to do that in 2010!
Right? Insane
We might already be processing 28K because "28K" only tells us the horizontal lines, but not the vertical lines. What matters is the overall megapixels per frame per second.
Not really that hard, modern video encoders can encode 4K and even 8K in real time so 24K would take a lot longer but not a stupid amount of time
@@fayenotfaye Dude ... It's not just processing ... You also need the requred amount of RAM for that step snd also where the F you gonna store 28k RED raw content 👁👄👁
@@mysticmarble94 a 4TB hard drive is like $100 now. Storage is so cheap, the bitrate required to play it back and edit it in real time would require you to move it to an SSD. Also about ram, there are computers with up to a terabyte of ram available to consumers, iPads these days have 16 gigs.
RED has always done dubious marketing. A great early example is the Scarlet promise of 3k for $3k. It got them plenty of deposits and when the camera finally shipped, it did at around 2x time the cost and not even remotely close to the planned ship date. I have learned not to trust their future products since that time. They are a marketing force, keeping buzz around their existing products so you eventually get impatient and buy what they have now. Funnily enough, the company that delivered better on the 3k for $3k promise was BMD.
Yep! For the most part they are pretty up front on everything even when something fails
I don't like how everything RED does is proprietary, even something that should be as interchangeable as a USB stick.
@@fredashay It's like buying Apple products haha
That it does
DAE APLEL BAD XDDDD
There's a reason for the crazy wide format of the theoretical 28k sensor. It's actually multiple dies of silicon placed next to each other. Someone convinced RED that these dies could be placed close enough together that they could be combined to act as 1 sensor.
Or alternatively to split the image in optics in such a way that it would be distributed across several individual sensors.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that how Arri made the Alexa LF and 65? The A2X and A3X sensors composed of 2 and 3 ALEV III sensors? I'm not a silicon engineer so I'm curious how it works.
@@Crlarl Actually, yeah it seems that way. I was unaware that Arri had already done this for their cameras. Pretty cool!
How did someone "convinced" Red? That's what Arri have been doing with the Alexa's sensor. Exactly what they've been doing to produce medium and IMAX format Alexa cameras. With all due respect, I'm a little confused, just like Carl. Also, most CPU companies use the same exact technique for their own silicon use. Why wouldn't it work for optical sensors?...
I mean, that’s what the Alexa 65 and LF is
I am glad that someone still remembers this part of history in digital cinema development and even keeps an organized record of it. Thanks for the good work.
Thanks! I've been trying to go back and record as much as I can find on all of these projects.
@@FrameVoyager What a fun channel for old timers like myself and what a valuable asset for the younger generation filmmakers! 👍👍👍 Really appreciate it.
It's not about resolution, it's about dynamic range, that's why the Alexa even it wasn't 4k, has dominated the market for the last ten years and with the new Alexa Super 35, they will continue dominating the market.
the new Alexa S35 was introduced precisely because they could no longer keep up with the resolution. Streaming services like Netflix, Disney+, Amazon etc - they all require 4K capture resolution as a minimum and Arri was losing sales because of that.
@@notsorandumusername That isn't "not keeping up", that's stupid executives that don't know anything about cameras making decisions on the technical requirements for shooting. Nobody with half a brain would say that the Alexa isn't good because it's not 4k.
@@TechnoBabble But nobody with half a brain will say the Arri Alexa LF or 65 with their 4K+ resolution isn't good either.
Why then, are so many people almost personally offended by the mere thought of having a resolution of 4K and beyond? *And why is this **_never_** a problem when it comes to large format film?*
I have never heard someone complaining that 65mm film or 15perf70 imax is 'too sharp'. Or that the executives who approved those formats were 'stupid' or 'don't know about technical requirements for shooting'. Yet when it comes to a _digital_ camera the notion of having more resolution is somehow outrageous to some.
It's completely incomprehensible. People are buying ever larger screens, you can't even buy a 1080p tv anymore and even though some naysayers will deny it, we will absolutely move to even bigger screens with 8K resolution. Your 2k isn't going to look all that nice on that.
And I remember discussion threads from 20 years ago were the same naysayers were saying nobody needed HDTV because 'DVD is good enough' and 'no one will see the difference' as they were all reasoning from their 28inch CRT tv's and couldn't fathom those screens would die out in less than a decade.
@@TechnoBabble But nobody with half a brain will say the Arri Alexa LF or 65 with their 4K+ resolution isn't good either.
Why then, are so many people almost personally offended by the mere thought of having a resolution of 4K and beyond? And why is this never a problem when it comes to large format film?
I have never heard someone complaining that 65mm film or 15perf70 imax is 'too sharp'. Or that the executives who approved those formats were 'stupid' or 'don't know about technical requirements for shooting'. Yet when it comes to a digital camera the notion of having more resolution is somehow outrageous to some.
It's completely incomprehensible. People are buying ever larger screens, you can't even buy a 1080p tv anymore and even though some naysayers will deny it, we will absolutely move to even bigger screens with 8K resolution. Your 2k isn't going to look all that nice on that.
And I remember discussion threads from 20 years ago were the same naysayers were saying nobody needed HDTV because 'DVD is good enough' and 'no one will see the difference' as they were all reasoning from their 28inch CRT tv's and couldn't fathom those screens would die out in less than a decade.
its more due to the fact that studios wernt willing to master shit in 4k because it took more time and money to render, computers and society have mostly made it so p much every film now is mastered in 4k
As much as I like the contrasty, gritty, RED look, I just really couldn't get behind a camera company that used "proprietary" media that was just basic ass hardware marked up to high heaven. I understand cost of entry, but that's completely different from flat out abuse and greed. And as we've seen, all you have to do is create a great product, give people options to run their show, and people will get behind it. Canon, Sony, and BM are testaments to that.
Absolutely! I think that they would be held at a lot higher regard if they didn't resort to some of the scammy business practices. But I think we can thank Jim Jannard for that mess and the patent lawsuit mess too
@@FrameVoyager Honestly I'm still baffled how the Red compressed RAW patent still holds up, because, like many other RED claims, they didn't invent a lot of the stuff, and some of the stuff is so generalized that it's actually been crippling to the market. For example they did not invent RAW compression; however, they did pack the sensor Bayer mosaic pixels together for all three channels and apply a DCT wavelet compression of some form to it, and then unpacked the result, and that aspect was indeed clever and innovative. My issue is that packing the mosaic channels and applying a DCT compression is not the only way one can compress the RAW sensor data. Yet their patent was vague enough to not only cover ALL mosaic patterns, not just the Bayer pattern which is all they use, but also all forms of compression of this type of data. While the earlier I could see being an issue if someone used a DCT compression on any other sensor pattern, as that is basically the same underlying technique; however, covering all other types of compression is absolutely a massive overstep, because while a DCT wavelet style compression is going to be one of the most effective forms of compression,as we know from the popularity of Jpegs on the internet, their patent prevented RLE compression as well, and while that might not be as small and efficient as DCT it's still massively better than completely uncompressed data. Yet no one can use it or any other form of compression on ANY mosiac sensor data without infringement potential with RED. That , to me, is the reason the patent shouldn't hold up, yet RED keeps managing to hold on despite the wording of patent law saying this shouldn't be possible. Anyhow I know I got a bit soap boxy, but the thing is patents were meant to protect ones innovation, and when they are weaponized through vague language to do the opposite and instead prevent innovation then it angers me, because it's the opposite of their intended purpose.
That gritty look, to me, is what kept me away from RED, in addition to the proprietary media (until DSMC3). As a former RED owner, it seriously limited the tonal and textural control I had in post. I wanted the high dynamic range and resolution, but had to fight with the camera to make people look bright and flattering because of the camera's natural look and DSMC2's heavy fixed pattern noise didn't help. I think if anything, the rise of BM has displayed how DPs really care more about versatility, image, functionality, and latitude in post than Ks, dynamic range and a dramatic look out-of-box.
Wouldn’t call red sensor gritty what so ever, it has a warm toned clean look, ARRI is known for its roughness … but insane skin tones
@@spincity850 RED's look is not all that clean.
Getting a sensor that BIG from a batch of silicone wafer mustve extremely hard, especially with minimal defect, high speed lenses would also be an issue since most 617 lenses are slower than that of medium format. however that 645 sensor might be the next step for red, even wider than the current 40mm wide monstro
Yeah, nearly a wafer-scale CMOS sensor.. I am not sure if even in military satellite tech this has been done with virtually limitless budget, not to speak of a private sector product. Yields would be atrocious if possible at all..
💯 it would be a cool experiment but in 2008 they were saying it was possible? Yeah right 😩
They could have also glued several sensors/dies together but Arri is the only company I'm aware of capable of sourcing/making it. Kodak used to glue dies together in some of their sensors in the 90s. However, as far as I remember those sensors looked good (colors matching) only if the dies were adjacent pieces from the wafer (or not too far away from each other) I guess nowadays you can use a sort of a LUT or something to fix it but in the 90s you had to fix the mismatch in post.
@@hbp_ interesting 🤔
@@hbp_ even if you were to glue them together from S35 sensors it would take about 21 of those (7*3). It's simply impossible with todays semiconductor tech.
I think that it was and still is technologically impossible to create a sensor die on a piece of silicon that large. I think that the manufacturing yield was so low that they would have to charge more than Arri for the camera. It is most likely that they thought it was possible since astronomers have such high-resolution sensors (e.g. the Dark Energy Camera with its 500Megapixel resolution and $50M price tag).
😂😂😂 for sure! Totally a marketing ploy to get buzz around their new products and then people forgot about it
I have a sensor that is literally a whole wafer, about 120 x 150 mm (specs are low though - 50um pixels, 5 MP). Its used for XRAY imaging. Larger xray sensing surfaces exists as well, but they got multiple large dies placed next to each other.
Absolutely. This is beyond the reticule limit for basically any manufacturing process even today. Shoot, even the V-Raptor's sensor is two stitched together, and that's modern tech.
@@grumpybunny the "stitch" occurs at litography stage, the RED sensor is still single die, not two!! I dont know why so many people think they just took two or three sensors and glued them together, lol. It is not that way. Multi exposure was used on large sensors at least 25-30 years back.
@@cameramaker Yields on stitched sensors is probably the reason why basically everyone seems to live with sensors not exceeding ~645 dimensions and instead takes small gaps between sensors.
I wrote a paper about this when I was at university back in 08. Red also said, if you could somehow compare it, it would have higher resolution than the human eye lol.
😂 sounds like their typical BS claims lolol
@@FrameVoyager Agreed. The point is once you make a camera which has a higher resolution than the human eye you start seeing things which make you terrified and which make you question everything you have been told and thus reality.
Isn’t there some irony that most of the old interviews shown at conventions talking about 4k cameras, has been filmed in low quality.
Kinda funny yeah 😂 granted was it the camera quality or was it because it was the early days of RUclips 🤔
Anytime I hear people whinge about resolution, I just remember that skyfall, a gorgeous film and the first James Bond to be shot on digital, is "only" 2.8k. Nobody notices, because the shots look so good and the camera captures those pixels so nicely. Even if you were pixel peeping it would be hard to tell
hahaha! Yeah, in cinema you don't care. It's more about how the image looks. ARRI has really only just moved into 4k for real. But they are still considered to have some of hte best images. A lot of it has to do with the quality you can get out of every pixel on your sensor and your dynamic range. If you get all that right incredibly well, you can upscale just fine. But yeah, most people wouldn't be able to see the difference at all
@@FrameVoyager I lament the fact that in consumer cameras we just kind of skipped over 1440p as a middle ground between 1080 and 4k. If you have a monitor in that res, you know the pixels aren't particularly noticeable and you get much better performance than a 4k monitor. Shame we never employed the same idea with video, not sure if there's a greater reason for that beyond "4k is much more marketable than 'QuadHD' or '2.7(?)k'".
@@thatgreenfur6584 to a point I get it. 4k is a much easier marketing point than 1440p. At the end of the day always comes down to what's going to make money
@@FrameVoyager My dream camera is a simple cube with a sensor, plenty of attachment points & input/output ports for video and audio, and a a max res of 1440p with great dynamic range. But that's basically unmarketable to 99% of people though, I think.
This series is super interesting, keep up the good work!
Appreciate it! Working on some more cameras like the AJA Cion and others!
remember when RED tried to sell HDRx?
The largest digital image sensors are made for telescopes. The largest that could theoretically be used as a handheld camera are digital x-ray sensor boards. Which a company named "LargeSense" turned into a large format digital back for a really high price - and they can do video. It's not high resolution, it's giant pixels.
I shot 617 film for 25 years. I think the cost of manufacturing the 617 sensor is the problem. Processing the footage would be difficult. I won’t be worrying about it in my lifetime!
Oh that's pretty cool! And yeah, I'd agree. But they said it would be out in 2010 😂 I just don't think it was even a real product or that sensor tech just evolved and made it irrelevant
Does anyone else remember how vehemently those even remotely implying that Red didn't make their own sensors were mocked and made fun of in their message boards.
haha yep! And they didn't even come close to making them. Which to me is the dumbest lie because literally no one makes their own sensors minus a few companies. Why lie?
@@FrameVoyager
Word!
Also, I didn't know about that scam with the 10X markup of slightly modified memory cards! Wow, Ted is a real piece of Schilowitz.
@@IllusionSector yeahhhhh, everyone does it but they were just so shady about it
I still remember how around 1997 some company was hyping “hypercomputing” which was supposed to be FPGA-based “supercomputer on your desktop” stuff with their own OS etc. Despite very impressive large desktop cases, nothing ever materialized.
I've never bought a RED product, and likely never will. Between the stuff they pulled with their memory cards, to the strangle hold they have on the industry with the internal RAW recording patent, they're a bunch of assholes who only care about money and nobody can change my mind on that. The resolution wars are also something that I refuse to get behind, having used Alexas on my narrative shoots. I doubt there is a single filmmaker on earth who needs more than 4k on their shoots, and even then only for streaming requirements.
Totally agree! RED makes good cameras but they just are so dubious in their marketing and business practice makes it hard to trust anything they say
Agree with you.
Tho my issue is moneh and work. Both of Which I don't have to justify buying a camera that expensive 🤣
@@8lec_R for sure 😂😂😂
What always troubled me about Red was them keeping their users on a constant upgrade path. People would dish out 20-30k for the latest model only to have the resale value tank shortly after when Red announced a slightly better model. Many times, the newer models would be rushed out - without proper testing - leaving owners in the lurch if defects were found. They tried to follow the Apple strategy of keeping accessories in their ecosystem and creating a cultish following. The cult has died down a bit. But Red still seems to suffer from quality control problems(The Split sensor problem with the V-raptor)
@@nshea3286 yep! They've seemed to steadily lose some market share value over the past 5 years
I have a photo from that sensor, it was tested in NZ. Even today it's still impressive, but we now have stuff in the 100mpx+ range.
I assume there would have been a permanent anamorphic lens attached, but if you are always stretching the light that much, I doubt the image would have been any better than a smaller sensor and good glass…. 645 sensor would have been sweet though.
🤔 yeah I kept trying to figure out how the mounting system would even work for this. Granted, RED was also making their own lenses at this point too and that was a fail
Lenses used on large format cameras (alpa, linhof, rodenstock, schneider kreuznach, etc.) could have covered the size of the sensor as it would have been smaller than 8x10 film plates. And I'm sure the 645 format is not a concept of the past just yet. It's still produced by Sony for Phase One and Hasselblad, the video specs are terrible at the moment (only Hasselblad offers it on their H6D system), but it could change in the future with sensors evolution. It'd be amazing!!
No, anamorphic lens would stretch the footage even more.
That's some high production quality for a
Appreciate it! It's all about being patient and trying new things until it all hits! Hopefully I'll start growing faster here soon!
@@FrameVoyager That's how it was for me! About a week ago the algorithm realized and I went from 25 to 625 subscribers
@@Scyth3934 It's such a SLOW burn
Wow. Thank you for collecting so much info for people like me who only knew the modern RED cameras! Now I understand why one of my friends do hates so much RED, lol! I’ll keep rocking with my Pocket 6K Pro. Cheers
No problem! It's been a fun series to work on finding all the random defunct cameras out there! Just released another one and have a whole list of them we are getting to here soon
Hmm the digital bolex on the list? Damn i still want one of those.
oops, I meant "does hate"
I own a Komodo, and it really is the camera I’ve been waiting for. That global shutter is beautiful, 6K is the perfect resolution for a UHD Master, and of course RAW. I don’t think I would trade it for any other camera on the market (that I know of), including an Arri or a High End RED.
I was searching for a used Digital Bolex right before the Komodo was announced. There is a type of ‘magic’ to the global shutter. But I’ve always been sensitive to motion and motion rendering.
@@christianjadot4459 Thanks for your comment, Christian. I have watched many tutorial after seeing this video and even went to the BSC in London, UK and I have to tell you that I am officially in love with the Komodo!
thank you for doing this series. it's incredibly insightful.
No problem! HAving a lot of fun making them
I would never use the 28K camera due to it's extremely wide format. Audiences would have to move their heads left to right to scan the screen in order to see everything. It would be an exhausting viewing experience. At very least, audiences would have to scan left to right with their eyes to see everything. When I watch a movie, I want to relax, not work at something as basic as seeing. 8K and 12K in more traditional ratios will sell.
hahaha it would be weird for sure. Was kind of confused by how they were going to even make the sensor work in the first place. More than likely wasn't real haha
Steven your argument against the 28 k is the best one here!
@@FrameVoyager Thanks... yeah, what kind of lens for extreme wide format? I think you are right, it was a publicity stunt. If I had a spare 100 grand laying around, I would buy a Red camera with all the goodies and a drone too.
Not surprising they didn’t develop their own sensors, I figured that was a given. I mean what kind of start up would make their own sensors? It requires crazy amounts of r&d, time and infrastructure to make your own sensors from scratch when you’re just trying to make a camera.
9:49 i think they didn't make it because they realized that they don't have the raw compute/storage capacity to even make use of a 28k sensor.
There was the theoretical quantum module issue.They also knew something else. A 28k camera would be hugely expensive.Once they saw how expensive their camera would be, they had to abandon ship.
I feel like they knew initially but used as a really effective marketing tool! Which kudos to them it worked!
@@FrameVoyager I have noticed that at between 4k and higher, some people start seeing or may see ghosts. So at 8k higher those who think they are seeing such might be using higher resolutions than their vision can handle. It is not supernatural vision, just natural vision. So at 28 k, just imagine what we might be able to see.
I bought a bmpcc 4k because of you, now I just need to figure out what to use it for, lol.'
also good vid btw
hahaha glad you got one! And thanks!
Less vaporware than a highly speculative preliminary hardware concept, in my view. My guess is that this lightweight design seen in promotional materials was actually only the sensor block which would have been tethered to some much more substantial piece of hardware that would actually do all of the processing and capture. Think the Alexa-M and Venice Rialto. Otherwise the design would simply be too ridiculous, even for Red in their fast and loose days. This would also go a good way towards explaining why the product was cancelled, given the limited applications for such a tethered camera system.
This explanation would also solve the media question. Some extreme SSD RAID solution, unencumbered by a traditional camera body, would get the job done.
Absolutely agree! Some good points. It's just hard to tell as this was in their "fast and loose days" and I really attribute most of it to Jim Jannard's business practices. It was the same thing at Oakley, which works well in that industry but not in an industry where we rely on gear for our jobs. Him leaving seems to have stabilized them a bit imho
@@FrameVoyager for sure, and something I left unstated in my theory is that, if I’m right, they were certainly letting people THINK that that was the whole camera.
@@jordanfish 😂😂😂 probably! When a company is selling you smoke and mirrors it's a "RED" flag 😏
Dang, I need that camera for my no-budget indie film! It's the only one that will capture the images I want. Better cut my lighting-budget to fit this in...
😅
Ok you use Sony pd150 and I use v-raptor xl :p
I'm not a fan of RED... ever since they promised 4K for 4K... (The RED scarlet camera back in the day) and then the camera came out and cost 6K and then 8K if you wanted any necessary accessories. Don't lie to the customers.
Exactly. Just doesn't make you feel sorry for them at all. They make decent cameras but ruin it with all of the BS that most trained video/film people will see right through.
Komodo is 6k for 6k
@@danthemanporto 10 years too late. I just went with the Canon R5c ... 8K for 4.5K, MUCH better deal.
@@Seansds i would say you win because r5c is a cool camera but RED control wireless video and camera control including wireless lens control (except zoom) is so bloody good :)
I'm always stuck between loving Red and absolutely hating that company. I think they get away with a lot, I think their cameras are incredibly unreliable and even for our industry, I think their pricing for some of their service options and replacement parts are predatory. That said, I think that Red is a company that gives a lot of people a price option that suits their production. That said if I'm ever given a choice between a High-end Sony or an Arri compared to a Red, I'm always gonna pick Sony or Arri any day of the week
I like how we're going to 8k and 28k camcorders but movie theaters still project at 2K.
Why don't we at least have a 8k OLED HDR Theater? But we have cameras that can make stuff for concept theaters like that?
I asked jarred how much to produce a 70mm by 50mm IMAX sized digital sensor… he said 33million
😂 that's not what their chart said lol
I am almost finished with the abandoned camera playlist and its been an absolutely fascinating series. I love the history and the tech behind it all, especially when compaired and contrasted to what we have now.
The one nitpick I have about the series, as a telecommunications engineer, is your constant use of spelling out C M O S instead of just saying Cee•Moss. 😂
The main 2 problems with this would be: 1) The storage requirements for every minute of footage would be insane. 2) The hardware requirements to process 28k clips. These would an issue today, nevermind a decade & a half ago.
LMAO Ted is their chief marketer? Sure sounds like it considering he likes to lie a lot and hope people don't notice
No he's the "LEADER OF THE REBELLION"
I’m Loving this series nicely done
Appreciate it! More to come for sure!
@@FrameVoyager this is very awesome! Love your vids
Appreciate it!
Original Ursa was a game changer with a friendly budget under $6000
💯 beat out the AJA Cion which we will be talking about soon 👀
Did he just say "our camera is 4K which is about 5 times the resolution of 1080p?" Pretty sure you mean 4.2 times there, buddy
hahaha one of many OUTRAGEUOS claims lol. Honestly scary how easy it was to find all of this out
@@FrameVoyager to be honest, watching all these clips you’ve curated makes me so much less inspired by RED and less aspirationally excited about having one in the future lol.
Maybe I shouldn’t have checked how the sausage was made lol.
@@definingslawek4731 yeahh... It sucks because they make decent cameras but they mix that with being super dubious in their marketing. For no apparent benefit
I feel like the physical limitation of how sharp a lens can even be would become relevant much earlier than at 28K resolution.
The problem besides it being dumb, is that we just don't have media fast enough to record 28k video. I own a RED myself and think this is way overkill.
Exactly! But honestly, you just don't need 28k. Plenty proving resolution only does so much for an image. Can you imagine the write speed you'd need? haha
There have been consumer SSDs fast enough to handle the necessary write speed for at least six years.
@@AlexKiritztrue. Probably the better way to put it is isn't very practical
@@AlexKiritz can you point me to any external ssd's with write speeds over 2,000MBs?
@@FrameVoyager In 2016 Red was charging $4k for 1TB sata SSDs when higher end 1TB nvme SSDs were $600. A number of the recommended SSDs that meet the requirements for PS5 expansion could do 28K at 60 FPS at MQ. There’s a $1500 one that is 8TB and could record for 20 minutes.
the fact they litterally say they have no idea what they are doing and are so focused on resolution over actual camera quality proves red cameras are made just for tech bros like linus tech tips and not for people that are using cameras for actual artistic purposes
I had completely forgotten about that hilarious rendering for their 28K camera - the design didn't make sense back then as it does now - and, seriously, what are you gonna do with 28K? At this stage, 8K alone is being used as the "negative" for 4K (you shoot and color grade in 8K for a 4K output - that way, you get a sharper image in spite of the amount of abuse it went through at the grading stage).
6:54 Yeah, I remember when Red was pushing around this idea that you always have to increase resolution to get "more cinematic" images. I mean, they still do now, but back then it was kind of their mantra, as if resolution was the only thing that mattered. Then Arri released the Alexa and dominated the market for more than 10 years with a camera that was made for 2K output and now they are about to release their first S35 4K machine. Red in the meantime has finally come around to put internal NDs in their cameras like anyone else, after only 14 years in the business.
😂 yeah, it's pretty insane
@@FrameVoyager Red is 80% hype and 20% hard facts.
Bro, you hacked the algorithm with this one! LOL 😂
😏
Very enjoyable to watch ! :) Thanks !
No problem! More on the way!
I've just watched this episode. Fun series! Lots of stuff I've read about before, but some new nuggets, and nicely presented.
I'd seen that slide from their presentation about the 28K camera before. But just now noticed the line that says "RED mount, Linof Mount, Alpa Mount".
That's weird!
a) is that a misspelling of Linhof and Alpha? Bizarre they would misspell those.
b) as if RED camera were ever going to get Sony Alpha mounts?! A or E.
You would need a storage recording speed of around 500 giga byte per second and you will be able to record 10 seconds of 24fps footage on 4TB storage.
😅😅😅
Eventually though, I can imagine it being possible. Imagine instead of say gigabytes today such as you know how most phones have 256gigbyte storage? I can imagine that being 256terabytes in the future and so on and so forth. It wasn’t that uncommon for laptop storage to be counted in megabytes not too long ago
i owned a RED for a hot minute. This entire video makes me feel better about selling it, haha
😂 that's good to hear!
Why would you even want 28K, that would be ridiculously inefficient
For me, hyping something up is not good marketing practice. May be good for their marketing but it is not good for the consumer.
Exactly... Sometimes the less hype the better
this is top notch content, congrats man
Appreciate it! More to come
I own a RED by myself but I dislike the marketing strategy of them totally.
I dislike how they proceed in the V raptor stitched sensor issue term.
I dislike how they only talk about what’s coming up it’s gonna be big but they are quite if someone has a real problem and asks for help.
Phil holland stated in RED user forum that the monstro sensor is so huge, that’s the reason for the price
After the stitched sensor problem with the v raptor RED stated that they have always stitched they LF sensors and there was never a problem
After a user mentioned that in the forum, no one replied. No red officials no Phil holland. All quite. But it’s it’s coming to hype something, they are the first.
That all make me thinking about, if my next cam probably should be an Alexa.
The great 28K fluff…. Cool video!!!
Thanks!!
4:26 OMG Michael White from Braking Bad?!
I hadn't thought of that haha. Striking resemblance
What is that 2/3” mysterium sensor? I had no idea Red had made such a tiny sensor
hahahaha who knows with RED. They probably never made it
I'm just speculating here but maybe RED got inspired by stuff like the Seitz Roundshot 6x17 - it has a similar design and (at that time)a high resolution sensor.
Maybe they thought they could acquire the sensor like they did with the FORZA sensor - but the problem was that it's a scanning back meaning there is no singe sensor covering the whole frame.
Even if they could have pulled it off the bandwidth would not have been manageable. Maybe now it could have worked with NVME SSD bandwidth etc.
Could be! I really think it's likely to be a marketing ploy. But I always like to think this stuff might have been built in some secret dark corner of the company that only a few ever saw haha
I@@FrameVoyager Hahahah yeah and then they used a working prototype to take four frames and then they were like... "okay, now what?"
Red is just a marketing company and that’s why hypster like MKBHD uses them even though he doesn’t need them to film any of his product reviews. In fact his reviews are mostly just open-box and hands-on experience then reviews
The first time I heard of red was when they were announcing that smartphone with the holographic screen.
How the hell was that wide aspect ratio ever going to work with normal lenses anyway?
lmao....this is some Ronald Regan Star Wars era level of B.S. from RED.
Was RED hoping that the rest of the companies would panic and go broke trying to develop a 28k sensor?
I mean... They really spurred on a lot of the companies around this time and caused some to bankrupt. While I might not agree with how they do things as a company, it wasn't the worst business strategy, but I think they are starting to slow down a bit.
I think the 12k ursa not doing that great in the market under the fact most people don’t need or want 12k for a most projects will hopefully give Red the idea that anything over 10k right now even over 8k isn’t needed. Sure make a camera with a 12k sensor BUT make it downsample into a 6k or 8k image we don’t need more than that. I hardly see the point of 8k apart from down sampling.
They really marketed the URSA 12k wrong. In my opinion, it's a multi resolution camera that shoots full sensor 12K, 8k, and 4K which gives you flexibility. But really that's it's best feature, not the 12k
I still shoot with my Canon C100 mark II. The 1080P that comes out of that is very sharp.
You're not being respectful to film cameras 🙄
I finally moved up from 720 to 1080 yea im happy
Struggling to imagine why anyone would need a 28K sensor
I think also 28k is not needed, just like nobody needed their phone. So probably just focused on making some profit and improving products. Camera’s they have now are just fine for the cinema of today.
Didn't ALL movies that utilised digital SFX or colour grading go to 2K Digital Intermediate before 4K and higher became viable, and were accordingly released as 2K prints? I watched the Lord of the Rings in a movie theatre again a few years back (after watching Interstellar in 4K etc.), and it looked absolutely gorgeous! This was the standard release resolution of those movies shot on "hard to match" analog film.
I can imagine that they were so obviously adamant about building their own sensors to avoid anyone figuring out who to contract to compete in the 4K market right away...
Can you imagine the lenses for that behemoth of a sensor?!
I recall hearing about an alleged "28K" sensor being developed, and all I could do was laugh my ass off. Whatever drugs everyone at Red were doing at the time, I really wish they had shared with the rest of us...
If any of this had been true, the military would have bought it up, and prevented its sale to the general public, and ensured it never saw the light of day.
Red makes decent products
Why do they need to go ruin their reputation by saying stupid s*** like "This drive is great" while knowing it's garbage or "we can shoot 16 stops of dynamic range" when they can't.
Like cmon, you have a good camera, focus on what's good, improve what's not good and move on.
EXACTLY! Especially to a bunch of people who will eventually see through the BS
Holy hell! 617? How do you get a yield other than zero out of a piece of semiconductor that big?
When he said 2k what did he mean?
If 3840 x 2160 is “4k” cause the longest side is almost 4000 pixels
Then surely 1920 x 1080 is “2k”, but he said 1080p and 2k as if they’re separate resolutions.
Maybe it’s the thing where gamers call 1440p 2k for some reason
Haha I have no idea 😂 that was probably the dumbest comment too. It's like "tell me you've never used a camera without telling me."
@@FrameVoyager this documentary has taught me that a company should be very careful with their communications to the public. When I wasn’t aware of any of these clips my brain automatically filled in what the RED corporation is and what it looks like. It was some kind of state of the art cyberpunk type monolith in my imagination.
And if they didn’t say anything to the contrary, I would have continued to believe that 😂 gotta maintain the mystery.
Also how did I not know the founder is the guy from Oakley lol. Great video, I love the energy of the intro and outro, so mysterious ✨
@@definingslawek4731 😂😂 thanks! 2 videos in on this series and everyone seems to like them a lot. Working on some more so keep an eye out!
@@FrameVoyager A lot of people use 2k and 1080p interchangeably. And like DCI 4k, DCI 2k also exists, at 2048 wide. The reason being that TVs and monitors are sold by the vertical resolution, and Cinema operates on horizontal resolution because the vertical resolution changes with aspect ratio. It's annoying and confusing when the two different systems are used side by side.
many ppl always refer to 1080 as 2k. but i disagree with that.
For a sensor that large, Surely you would need giant diameter lenses in order to cover it?
Never knew about the Red smartphone...
REDs whole deal that resolution is the deciding imaging factor has been BS from the beginning. I highly recommend everyone watch Steve Yedlin‘s Resolution Demo.
The mid to late 2000s were such a dogshit time for consumer level digital video cameras. Look at how awful the presentations and news segments are compared to what's being sold, a 4K camera vs sub-720p heavily artifacted files!
0:56 this sure wasn't filmed with a red camera
Reduser forums were quite toxic back then. Not sure what it’s like now
Why not just shoot it on 67 different 4K sensors and stitch it together in post production to get a 28 second clip at the same cost of 14 only historically expensive blockbusters?
😅 if I was a larger RUclips channel, I'd definitely test that out
Imagine the exotic SSD arrays and multi GPU workstations you'd need to even do minor editing to that footage. With today's tech!
Internal Compressed RAW. Now you know what I'm thinking.
A great image means nothing vs a great story/acting/directing etc...which can be done on an iPhone or even VHS or 8mm camera. We are so inundated with great quality images that it's basically becoming standard and essentially a non-factor.
A story is all that really matters, everything else has to be just passable enough not to distract from the story. If anything breaks your suspension of disbelief, you fail as a storyteller.
Right now there are plenty of cameras out there that will work great and the vast majority of the audience will never know or care what was shot on what.
I thought i was hardcore with 48TB for 8 weeks of timelapse photos
I now know
I'm am a mere amateur.....
I hate companies like this.
RED's job titles are literally a discord guild by themselves
lol they said that and then the CIA showed up and said " here's 20mil, make it and don't ever talk about it" lol
I feel like Red cameras are such a meme nowdays, the only time you really see them is when a coorperation wants to spend money on something nicer, but can't quite afford an Arri cam
28K resolution meditation app.
In honor of the revolution it’s half-off at the GAP.
😂😂😂
Another great video. But as curious as I was about this when I was a baby filmmaker, I quickly realized it was a joke. Tongue in cheek marketing ploy at best
I mean it has to be right? 😂😂😂
How would you even display the footage?
Too funny - I am shown in this video at :30 and 4:04 and Ted is standing next to my camera in one of the shots.
😂 that's awesome! Yeah, pulling from a lot of old video sources for these. Been cool to hear from people like you who were actually there for all of this!
@@FrameVoyager I figured I should reply from my personal account from now on. I was there at RED in the early days 2006 - 2010. I find it amusing that something that was announced 14 years ago still gets people worked up. Good for views I guess.
I worked the early RED trade shows and was a contractor. I did the merchandising for NAB and IBC 2007. Nothing like having a attendee start yelling at you for having a 4k camera at $18k when they had just bought a Viper system. I would usually say "then I guess it isn't your camera ". RED certainly woke up an industry.
That's awesome! And it is quiet funny, people love docudramas like this in other industries so I thought I'd try it out in this one.
Haha and I bet that was interesting! People get a little crazy over this stuff for sure. I have nothing personal against RED and I totally agree they WOKE up a camera industry in a BIG way. We wouldn't have the ARRI Alexa! Just from researching early on and combing through some of this, I know every company isn't fully transparent, just wish they could have been a bit more early on as it didn't really seem to make much difference. And even the RED MAG issue that even Linus Tech Tips pointed out kinda hurts the reputation. But nothing but respect for how quickly they created a camera company like this, one in a billion chance to do it the way they did and that at least should be commended!
@@FrameVoyager Yes you are correct!! Never hear people talking fondly about the Arri D20 or 21, or Panavision Genesis. As a public facing person working for RED it was quite a interesting dynamic. I left before the Epic shipped so I am out of the loop on the cards etc. I have worked with R3D files ever since it began. I am looking at footage right now, and don't understand the gritty comments. It is all in the grading IMO. RED was originally criticized for being too soft.
@@brisci I think the gritty comments come from the 300 movie 😅 that's the only thing I can think of.
It's so expensive if you look at blackmagic 12k the price the resolution I think much better. 28k we don't have anything technology at the moment in the world . Even we don't have 12k on tv . Maximum is 4K hd
NASA and US Geospatial Agency have way more than 28k. Way more.
My 96k was abanded by Arri Alexa...
hahahahaha
They could have developed the 28k sensor but the issue would be a mobile processor for such s sensor.
Could be 🤔 really feels like it was just a marketing ploy. And considering who was in charge, it makes sense
@@FrameVoyager it's a good marketing strategy coz at the time it was thought that resolution determined picture quality but now we know that there's so so much more. The algorithms in the background that determine details like colour science etc
.
In the mobile phone arena the phones that take the best picture have camera's with 12 megapixels. Even though Sony and Samsung have developed larger megapixel sensors for mobile phones.. the 12Megapixel phones like the iPhone and Google pixel, Still outshine the rest.
.
These two companies (Google and Apple) have developed great algorithms to produce great pictures and videos. For a long time Google used the same sensor for several models of it's phone's but the newer versions has better picture quality because with increased processing power they could add to more complexity to their algorithm and produce better results than the previous years. So the larger sensor game is a losing race. The higher the pixels in a sensor the more processing power needed to run it through the company's proprietary algorithm.
.
Even if the image is Raw it still undergoes processing through an algorithm. Raw footage/pictures actually require more processing power, because more information is left and the file size is large coz of more data being processed and saved.
.
You'd need a monster of a processor to handle 28k footage, that increases the power requirements and cooling. Plus with the increased Data you need large storage, 1TB storage wouldn't cut it. Raw 8K footage weighs in at 121.5 GB per minute, with a full hour of footage resulting in a giant 7.29 TB file. what about 28k.
.
So you can make a 28k sensor but it'll be too expensive to build a camera for said sensor. You'll need a super powerful custom processor and super fast and large storage. Faster and larger than is currently available.
.
If it's not fast enough you won't be able to record in real time there will be major lagging and if you don't have larg storage you'll be recording seconds per SD card.
Absolutely! Bitrate and dynamic range is more important than pixel count.
does anyone else see a backwards car headlamp with handles and fancy extra junk glued to it or is that just me? Well, i guess after a trip to the auto store i too can make a 28K prototype.
i would hate to use this camera as it would be the same price as my car or more then those new $80K pickups outside the dealership
Wouldn't a 28k sensor need a gigantic lens to get enough light in
Details... DETAILS... all the video footage and a short google search shows, that Teds Name is "TED SCHILOWITZ". You write Shilowitz.
WHY?
OH! THE HUMANITY 😩😩😩
I probably just missed the "C" and didn't notice it in a LONG name. No real reason then I just didn't notice it 😂