Hi Michael, that's another excellent example of forced perspective and as others have said, it will look brilliant once stone, brick textures etc. are introduced in place of plain white. It's going to be great watching you bring the rear of those buildings together. Thanks for the update Michael, best wishes, stay safe, Ian
So glad you arrived at the best solution. That hotel does look amazing and you'll need to be on top of your game to blend in the street scene. Fantastic job.
I like your final idea. Lowering the horizon line on the forced perspective helped it seem more cohesive with the foreground model of the hotel. Look forward to seeing how this all comes out.
Given your seemingly insatiable need for cereal packets, I'm guessing we know you have ALWAYS had your Weetabix! I'm looking forward to the finished result: if your previous work is anything to go by, I know it will be stunning.
Fascinating to watch the process for improving the result. I agree that you have reached a good point to start building the real thing. It is going to be a very impressive backdrop for the layout once it is finished. Stephen
Thank you Stephen! I hope I can pull this one off. It looks promising at the moment, but I am having a crisis of confidence part-way through the actual build. It may still be abandoned yet! :) Michael
Nicely done. One thought that occurred to me, if there is a lane between the back of the commercial buildings and the railway this might well be used for deliveries. Will there be access to the lane for such deliveries? If not deliveries, there would certainly be a need for access for the emergency services. You might recall the great fire of Chandwell, during the fireman's strike, when the chip van in the back lane was gutted. Goodness knows what would have happened if the Green Goddess hadn't been able to get into the lane. It would have been more than just fishcakes that were burned. The lane was awash with watered down mushy peas. Bob
I love watching the process you go through when planning your next step. The care you take to get it right is staggering. Thanks for sharing your thought process with us. It is truly mind blowing. Roy.
The folded black and white image was pretty good, and I would have settled there. But not you! And, even though it's still at the cereal packet stage, the mock up is far superior. Well done Michael. Cheers
Wow, great application of the forced perspective. It is very tricky to meld the building in when you have such a limited space. The roofline dipping down slightly from the horizon does look a bit awkward, but if you projected it up a little higher it may look spot on. I think you may be able to get away with this because your build looks like it has a hipped roof at the further end. The building behind that add so much it the scene. It will look great once you get everything into place The idea of making the road appear to be going uphill is genius and help the visualization so much more. Looking forward to the execution. The Chandwell Planning Board must be pleased. Thanks Again, Don
Thank you Don! I am still pondering if there is something I can do about that roof. I have an idea that I will be trying out this afternoon, so watch out for a future video. I'm enjoying the challenges of this build. Michael
@@Chandwell I know you already put together the model, but I was just thinking that the vanishing point may be better off further out. Then the angles wouldn't be so drastic. Another thing i was thinking about was two separate points directly above each other, one for the lower part of the structure the other for the roof. The windows and doors being interpolated between the two. This would allow position of the roof top more in line with the horizon and the bottom bit aligning with the roadway grade. I believe the eye moving up the structure while viewing may be deceived into believing this is OK. Overall, I do believe the vanishing point needs to be about 2 or 3 times further out to the right. Just my opinion, I value your judgement and have fun following your build, Don
Thank you Don - this is a really well considered suggestion as ever. It never occurred to me to vary the vanishing points and interpolate the windows - that is a different level of genius, my friend! I did try a much farther out vanishing point, but decided against it. There is only a gap of a few millimetres between the back of the hotel tower and the backscene. A shallower set of angles made the street look more "straight on" and the visual gap between the back walls and the tower became overbearingly close. An improved illusion in one plane made the illusion in the other far worse. The angle I'm left with was the best compromise between effective recession and spacing in the tiny gap. I have, yesterday evening, added a further roof piece behind the roof which is a 2-dimensional rendering of where the roof would appear to be if it was drawn straight onto the backscene. The shading difference bothers me, but overall, the effect has been greatly improved. I will try to show this in the next video as it was nothing more than an experiment that has "kind of" worked. Please keep your suggestions coming. I am learning so much trying this all out. It is very good fun and hearing from people with suggestions just makes it all the better. Michael.
Hey Andrew. I just had to take down this week’s video as it had a mistake in it. It should be back again in a few hours. Can’t promise you will see what’s at the end of the lane though. 😂 Michael
The effect seems very good. Also adding flat backdrop building prints to give illusion of distance behind the building row is excellent. A trick to reinforce the illusion would be adding a N 1/160 or a Z 1/220th figures at the end of the fading path to reinforce the depth illusion. On the backdrop fading street done earlier you can do the same with cars or vans to the same effect. I have seen many layouts in exhibitions in Holland (Rail Expo Utrecht), Belgium (Modelspoor magazine exhibition) and France (Expomėtrique Paris) using the multiple scale trick for forced perspective, even once having the same train in different scales to create a sense of distance with amazing results.
This was a nice effect . I would say the roof of the farthest back build is the only part with an angle off. The rest gives good depth. I may try to use some of this in the future.
Got to say you got it just about right in the end Michael, great work as usual I think it’s all going to look brilliant as you start making the models mate, cheers for now, John
Great perseverance to find what worked. It's gonna look great. I looked at an earlier video recently and I was surprised that your layout was DC. I would have a young chap like yourself would have been DCC!
Hello Dave! Thank you. It took a while but I think I’m onto something in the end. Yes, I avoided DCC for a couple of reasons. I can’t really justify the cost for the amount of use it would get. And mainly, I’ve worked in IT all my life and I find that “programming tracks” and “addresses” and such like are so close to the day job that I just can’t bear going near it! 😂 Michael
@@Chandwell At my model railway club they almost hold up crucifixes as I'm DCC unlike the others. I think the wiring in DC is as complicated as a computer program! :)
Hahah. Yeah. You are probably right. But it’s a “different” complicated, I suppose. Still, if I could make my trains run on breakfast cereal, I’d be sorted!
"Little Germany" - interesting district, I have to look for informations about it. // The perspective you have figured out, really does it. Once can already see the "magic" it spreads. Well done (again), Michael! Kindest regards Valentin.
Little Germany is a beautiful part of Bradford. It is full of imposing textile warehouses, largely built by German textile merchants, hence its name. A lot of films and TV shows are filmed there as it has a lot of atmosphere. Thank you as usual, Valentin! Michael
@@Chandwell Thanks a lot for your explanation - I didn't know that something like this (a German community) existed in GB. Also educational your channel!
It'll look amazing once it's done with realistic textures. Your choice of hoe to fill that space is geographically realistic given the proximity to a terminus station and the hotel. Can't wait to see it done. I once saw an exhibition by an artist who's name i forget, but you might try his technique. I would describe it is 'inverse' forced perspective. Try mixing one of your forced perspective scenes printed up ended on one of your hipped roofs with a flat section to hold the 'flat' deeper section of the scene. I hope that makes sense. You have a keen mind mind so no doubt you will grasp the concept. Happy modelling Michael!
I Phil. I know exactly what you are talking about because I've seen the same technique before. There is a gallery in Harrogate which shows some of these pictures in its window. The effect is incredible. I think it's the way that the scene moves at different rates as you walk past that tricks the eyes into seeing real 3D depth, even though its all coming out the other way. It's breath taking when in a controlled environment like a gallery. I wonder if we could transfer that into a model railway. Maybe so on a backscene. I don't think it would work in this tiny space here, but I bet it would further along where I have more space. I may try it for some of the buildings along the far back. Hmmm! Interesting! :) Thanks for the suggestion. Michael
Haha it really is a godsend to me. Without it I'd be a lost soul on the sea of despair with a layout of just bare track, wondering what to do with my life. Michael
Very convinceing results by the end of this test. Wonder if the "right" colouring would aid the looks of the final result. Like in an oil painting the the "would be" shadows should follow the scene from very dark too dark meeting a lighter horizontal line. I guess Inkscape handles shadowing effects very well - brilliant as usual looking forward to see you next weeks at Chandwell construction site. Take care best regards
Thank you Wolli! You are right; I'm going to need to get the colouring right and so far I have not given that much thought. However... today is the day I need to get it printed, so I will soon know! :) Michael
Yes I think you’re heading in the right direction. It just looks right even as a mock up. Whilst you were showing mock up 1 with the photo, you mentioned the far distant building as too small? I would have slotted a higher modern ish (60s) office block behind it to add height?
Thank Phil. I hope that this works. I am part-way through the build now and am having a crisis of confidence. But we'll get there in the end, I am sure! I did consider a taller building, but the one in the photo was already 5 storeys high. I think anything largest would have spoilt the perspective of the street. My third attempt was to try to squash the perspective together a bit but I wasn't happy with that either. It's a really fun challenge this one, and I am sure I will get something sorted somehow! :) Michael
Hi Michael, yes I do think the final incarnation could work. As you said if the perspective is to sharp thats not so convincing, as this only occurs when a person is so close they have to look up and move their head to see the whole image. The lane idea could have worked, but the building needed raising to incorporate the approach path, so the overall shape would be more butterfly type shape rather than flat at the bottom. Remember a person’s eye level doesn’t change in perspective. If you are interested i can message you a sketch.
My hotel really does look like the Waverley doesn't it! With its domed tower and the dormer windows. It is, however, modelled on The Midland Hotel in Bradford, which is just as rambling and interesting as the Waverley but maybe a little smaller. Michael
That is a super idea. I used mirrors in the hotel, and had hoped to mount one at the end of this alley. But the space is so tiny, there just isn't scope here. I am really interested in using mirrors though and I have some thoughts for more along the street in certain places. Michael
Lovely Jubbly, very clever to fool the eye into thinking there is a path or road alongside the hotel.
Thanks Paul! :) Michael
Looking forward to seeing you bring Market Street to life👍
Andrew🙂
You and me both! :) Michael
Hi ya Michael. You got it in the end. It finally looked natural. Nicely done. I look forward to your next update. Bye. Take care.
Thank you Norman! Much appreciated. Michael
Hi Michael, that's another excellent example of forced perspective and as others have said, it will look brilliant once stone, brick textures etc. are introduced in place of plain white. It's going to be great watching you bring the rear of those buildings together. Thanks for the update Michael, best wishes, stay safe, Ian
Thank you as ever, Ian! :) Michael.
Your onto a winner there with your format. I think it will look good once you have the finished buildings in place .
Well done
Jeff
Thank you Jeffrey! Michael
So glad you arrived at the best solution. That hotel does look amazing and you'll need to be on top of your game to blend in the street scene. Fantastic job.
Fingers crossed! This one will be a challenge to pull off and may still be abandoned at some point! :) Michael
You're a very creative problem solver. That's really going to look great.
Thank you Mark. I hope so. I think it will depend on how I can get the textures to work. Michael
I thought the hotel was very impressive, then I realised it was in n gauge. This went from very impressive to amazing, well done.
Many thanks! Michael
I like your final idea. Lowering the horizon line on the forced perspective helped it seem more cohesive with the foreground model of the hotel. Look forward to seeing how this all comes out.
Thank you Mark! I hope I can pull this one off! Michael
Given your seemingly insatiable need for cereal packets, I'm guessing we know you have ALWAYS had your Weetabix! I'm looking forward to the finished result: if your previous work is anything to go by, I know it will be stunning.
Thank you! Michael
Fascinating to watch the process for improving the result. I agree that you have reached a good point to start building the real thing. It is going to be a very impressive backdrop for the layout once it is finished. Stephen
Thank you Stephen! I hope I can pull this one off. It looks promising at the moment, but I am having a crisis of confidence part-way through the actual build. It may still be abandoned yet! :) Michael
Nicely done.
One thought that occurred to me, if there is a lane between the back of the commercial buildings and the railway this might well be used for deliveries. Will there be access to the lane for such deliveries?
If not deliveries, there would certainly be a need for access for the emergency services. You might recall the great fire of Chandwell, during the fireman's strike, when the chip van in the back lane was gutted. Goodness knows what would have happened if the Green Goddess hadn't been able to get into the lane. It would have been more than just fishcakes that were burned.
The lane was awash with watered down mushy peas.
Bob
I'm using this in a future video Bob! Brilliant! :) Michael
I love watching the process you go through when planning your next step. The care you take to get it right is staggering. Thanks for sharing your thought process with us. It is truly mind blowing. Roy.
Thank you Roy! Michael
First try seems so good! Nice work
Thanks! Michael
Really excellent work! Thanx for sharing!
Thank you! Michael
The folded black and white image was pretty good, and I would have settled there. But not you! And, even though it's still at the cereal packet stage, the mock up is far superior. Well done Michael. Cheers
Thank you Davie! Michael
Wow, great application of the forced perspective. It is very tricky to meld the building in when you have such a limited space. The roofline dipping down slightly from the horizon does look a bit awkward, but if you projected it up a little higher it may look spot on. I think you may be able to get away with this because your build looks like it has a hipped roof at the further end. The building behind that add so much it the scene. It will look great once you get everything into place
The idea of making the road appear to be going uphill is genius and help the visualization so much more. Looking forward to the execution. The Chandwell Planning Board must be pleased.
Thanks Again,
Don
Thank you Don! I am still pondering if there is something I can do about that roof. I have an idea that I will be trying out this afternoon, so watch out for a future video. I'm enjoying the challenges of this build. Michael
@@Chandwell I know you already put together the model, but I was just thinking that the vanishing point may be better off further out. Then the angles wouldn't be so drastic. Another thing i was thinking about was two separate points directly above each other, one for the lower part of the structure the other for the roof. The windows and doors being interpolated between the two. This would allow position of the roof top more in line with the horizon and the bottom bit aligning with the roadway grade. I believe the eye moving up the structure while viewing may be deceived into believing this is OK.
Overall, I do believe the vanishing point needs to be about 2 or 3 times further out to the right. Just my opinion, I value your judgement and have fun following your build,
Don
Thank you Don - this is a really well considered suggestion as ever. It never occurred to me to vary the vanishing points and interpolate the windows - that is a different level of genius, my friend! I did try a much farther out vanishing point, but decided against it. There is only a gap of a few millimetres between the back of the hotel tower and the backscene. A shallower set of angles made the street look more "straight on" and the visual gap between the back walls and the tower became overbearingly close. An improved illusion in one plane made the illusion in the other far worse. The angle I'm left with was the best compromise between effective recession and spacing in the tiny gap. I have, yesterday evening, added a further roof piece behind the roof which is a 2-dimensional rendering of where the roof would appear to be if it was drawn straight onto the backscene. The shading difference bothers me, but overall, the effect has been greatly improved. I will try to show this in the next video as it was nothing more than an experiment that has "kind of" worked. Please keep your suggestions coming. I am learning so much trying this all out. It is very good fun and hearing from people with suggestions just makes it all the better. Michael.
The perspective works very well Michael👍. Now I want to know now what's at the end of the lane!
Andrew🙂
Hey Andrew. I just had to take down this week’s video as it had a mistake in it. It should be back again in a few hours. Can’t promise you will see what’s at the end of the lane though. 😂 Michael
I like where that is going…. I’d love to see more
Thank you! More to come still! Michael
The effect seems very good. Also adding flat backdrop building prints to give illusion of distance behind the building row is excellent. A trick to reinforce the illusion would be adding a N 1/160 or a Z 1/220th figures at the end of the fading path to reinforce the depth illusion. On the backdrop fading street done earlier you can do the same with cars or vans to the same effect. I have seen many layouts in exhibitions in Holland (Rail Expo Utrecht), Belgium (Modelspoor magazine exhibition) and France (Expomėtrique Paris) using the multiple scale trick for forced perspective, even once having the same train in different scales to create a sense of distance with amazing results.
Thank you Eric. These are great suggestions. I love the idea of some Z scale people somewhere down the alleyway. Michael
This was a nice effect . I would say the roof of the farthest back build is the only part with an angle off. The rest gives good depth. I may try to use some of this in the future.
Yes that roof is giving me a headache. I have one last thing to try this afternoon... Wish me luck! Michael
Fantastic! Great use of forced perspective!
Thank you sir! Michael
@@Chandwell credit where it’s due my friend!
Got to say you got it just about right in the end Michael, great work as usual I think it’s all going to look brilliant as you start making the models mate, cheers for now, John
Thanks John! 👍 Michael
Great perseverance to find what worked. It's gonna look great. I looked at an earlier video recently and I was surprised that your layout was DC. I would have a young chap like yourself would have been DCC!
Hello Dave! Thank you. It took a while but I think I’m onto something in the end. Yes, I avoided DCC for a couple of reasons. I can’t really justify the cost for the amount of use it would get. And mainly, I’ve worked in IT all my life and I find that “programming tracks” and “addresses” and such like are so close to the day job that I just can’t bear going near it! 😂 Michael
@@Chandwell At my model railway club they almost hold up crucifixes as I'm DCC unlike the others. I think the wiring in DC is as complicated as a computer program! :)
Hahah. Yeah. You are probably right. But it’s a “different” complicated, I suppose. Still, if I could make my trains run on breakfast cereal, I’d be sorted!
"Little Germany" - interesting district, I have to look for informations about it. // The perspective you have figured out, really does it. Once can already see the "magic" it spreads. Well done (again), Michael! Kindest regards Valentin.
Little Germany is a beautiful part of Bradford. It is full of imposing textile warehouses, largely built by German textile merchants, hence its name. A lot of films and TV shows are filmed there as it has a lot of atmosphere. Thank you as usual, Valentin! Michael
@@Chandwell Thanks a lot for your explanation - I didn't know that something like this (a German community) existed in GB. Also educational your channel!
Hey there! Excellent vid as always :)
Thank you! Michael
It'll look amazing once it's done with realistic textures. Your choice of hoe to fill that space is geographically realistic given the proximity to a terminus station and the hotel. Can't wait to see it done. I once saw an exhibition by an artist who's name i forget, but you might try his technique. I would describe it is 'inverse' forced perspective. Try mixing one of your forced perspective scenes printed up ended on one of your hipped roofs with a flat section to hold the 'flat' deeper section of the scene. I hope that makes sense. You have a keen mind mind so no doubt you will grasp the concept. Happy modelling Michael!
I Phil. I know exactly what you are talking about because I've seen the same technique before. There is a gallery in Harrogate which shows some of these pictures in its window. The effect is incredible. I think it's the way that the scene moves at different rates as you walk past that tricks the eyes into seeing real 3D depth, even though its all coming out the other way. It's breath taking when in a controlled environment like a gallery. I wonder if we could transfer that into a model railway. Maybe so on a backscene. I don't think it would work in this tiny space here, but I bet it would further along where I have more space. I may try it for some of the buildings along the far back. Hmmm! Interesting! :) Thanks for the suggestion. Michael
I think I am going to be blown away again by this when it's built.
What would you do without Inkscape?
Haha it really is a godsend to me. Without it I'd be a lost soul on the sea of despair with a layout of just bare track, wondering what to do with my life. Michael
Like your thinking 👌😎 regards fred
Thanks Fred! Michael
This is very interesting. i am just about ready to redo my layout and this visuals may come in very handy!
Thank you! Michael
Great video as usual!
Thank you Simon! :) Michael
Very convinceing results by the end of this test. Wonder if the "right" colouring would aid the looks of the final result. Like in an oil painting the the "would be" shadows should follow the scene from very dark too dark meeting a lighter horizontal line. I guess Inkscape handles shadowing effects very well - brilliant as usual looking forward to see you next weeks at Chandwell construction site. Take care best regards
Thank you Wolli! You are right; I'm going to need to get the colouring right and so far I have not given that much thought. However... today is the day I need to get it printed, so I will soon know! :) Michael
Yes I think you’re heading in the right direction. It just looks right even as a mock up. Whilst you were showing mock up 1 with the photo, you mentioned the far distant building as too small? I would have slotted a higher modern ish (60s) office block behind it to add height?
Thank Phil. I hope that this works. I am part-way through the build now and am having a crisis of confidence. But we'll get there in the end, I am sure! I did consider a taller building, but the one in the photo was already 5 storeys high. I think anything largest would have spoilt the perspective of the street. My third attempt was to try to squash the perspective together a bit but I wasn't happy with that either. It's a really fun challenge this one, and I am sure I will get something sorted somehow! :) Michael
Hi Michael, yes I do think the final incarnation could work. As you said if the perspective is to sharp thats not so convincing, as this only occurs when a person is so close they have to look up and move their head to see the whole image.
The lane idea could have worked, but the building needed raising to incorporate the approach path, so the overall shape would be more butterfly type shape rather than flat at the bottom.
Remember a person’s eye level doesn’t change in perspective. If you are interested i can message you a sketch.
Thank you John - It is always a pleasure and privilege to accept your assistance! I've sent you a separate message. Thanks for watching! Michael
Great technique mate! Reminds me of the Shambles from York! Hopefully this will flesh out very well mate!😁👍 Cheers!
Thank you! Cheers! I just hope it doesn't end up being a complete shambles! Boom! Boom! See what I did there!!? Michael
I would imagine that you’re actually modelling part of Edinburgh? The hotel looks like it’s the Hotel Waverley.
My hotel really does look like the Waverley doesn't it! With its domed tower and the dormer windows. It is, however, modelled on The Midland Hotel in Bradford, which is just as rambling and interesting as the Waverley but maybe a little smaller. Michael
What About Mirrors, some model makers use mirrors at angles
That is a super idea. I used mirrors in the hotel, and had hoped to mount one at the end of this alley. But the space is so tiny, there just isn't scope here. I am really interested in using mirrors though and I have some thoughts for more along the street in certain places. Michael
good vid looking good keep up the good vids thank s lee
Thanks Lee! I will try! 👍 Michael
Bradford Cezzane
:) :) :) That made me smile! Thank you! Michael