The World Design of Castlevania: Symphony of the Night | Boss Keys
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- Опубликовано: 14 ноя 2018
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There’s a reason why we call these games “Metroidvanias”. After a bunch of largely linear games, Castlevania opened its doors for exploration in 1997’s PlayStation classic, Symphony of the Night. In this video, we look at how it’s world design works, as we learn what it means to make a good Metroidvania.
Abilitease from www.giantbomb.com/abilitease/...
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![Cordae - Saturday Mornings (feat. Lil Wayne) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/z2GYJua09F0/mqdefault.jpg)
If you miss the graphs, I'put a full dependency chart for Symphony of the Night over here - www.patreon.com/posts/maps-and-graphs-22745831
And to answer the mot frequently asked question: yes, of course I'll be looking at Hollow Knight! I can't wait to get to it - but I need to lay some more groundwork before then.
At last!! A new video, it's been so long since you last uploaded i was starting to think you were on vacation but forgot to tell everyone
So this season of boss keys is the season of metroidvanias!! I love metroidvanias! Thank you
I was on holiday, but there's no need to tell anyone :P
@@GMTK don't worry, i won't😁😁
Hooray!
Alucard's "WHAT?!" when Death takes his weapons is so well punctuated with the pause in the music.
Robotacular I thought that too! Haha
I always liked how Alucard's standing animation drops his hands right as he's telling Death "I will not"
first dialogue when entering the clock room is: “Wait a minute” by Maria.
Hhmmm is that a hint??!!
Nani! Is that a Jojo reference?
- Fan bois everywhere
I think is a well hidden hint, but the player the majority of the time don't think that far away jaja
I must confess that I used the time stopping watch the whole game just so it made me look like Dio.
May God forgive my soul...
Wow... I never noticed. I feel a little ashamed, I've played it like a hundred times.
@@actualzafra tbh it's more useful later on than most other subweapons. I did that too lol, it was one of the things that pushed me forward as it was my first Castlevania game I really played.
That photo of Shaft you threw up there nonchalantly totally killed me
I thought I was having a stroke for a second
I loved it
Kairu Hakubi Shut your mouth!
@@jacko7755 what? They're only talking about Shaft.
yeah, as if that joke wasn't made before (avgn)
My god, this pixel art. Real art. Gorgeous art.
Yeah. It's fantastic. Some of the best i've seen. A shame they never matched its quality in the succeeding games, partially as a consequence due to switching to portable consoles, but then again - they totally could've made another proper, console entry, they just didn't choose to.
I Think that Castlevania Order of Ecclesia looks very nice, still not so detailed as SoTN
Order of Ecclesia is beautiful as well.
Aria and Dawn are really good. Aria is 100% the best looking game on the game boy. SoTN still beats it
I'm glad they kept to pixels in this game, unlike other PS1 games that forced themselves into that paper mache looking art style
The room in the center of the Castle with the big clock is actually pretty clever in that the first time you go there and meet Maria the conversation is long enough to guarantee you will see the statue to the upper left shift to the side letting you know you might be able to go up there at a later point. This happens during this cut scene every single time you play the game.
On the other hand this scene is so early in the game that you may easily have forgotten it by the time you actually have the tools needed to ascend up into Olrox Quarters, and if you aren't observant or just somehow miss it like you seem to have Mark, then yea you could understandably not know you can even go up there.
Doesn't help that the small stuff that moves gets obscured by the textbox itself and is off in a corner, to add insult to injury, that's the corner that's going to be covered by a solid picture instead of a transparent box
I did notice this specifically after replaying the game, but I don't think it's anywhere near good enough for purpose: noticing, remembering and contextualizing this incredibly small detail in one single room, during a sequence that specifically draws your attention towards something else (Maria) is far beyond simple observance. This could have been reasonable as the basis for a minor easter egg item, not the game's critical path.
Well, it quite literally directs your eyes to the text box, and character portraits cover _exactly_ that spot...
The idea is fair, the execution is problematic.
Still, you wouldn't miss it moving since it also has sound effects for that. Sigh.
@@legiaexcele6111 The sound effect is also quite loud, missing it is on the player not the game.
Playing this game it always felt like the Castle was a character in and of itself that was actively fighting against you. It makes the wandering feel more meaningful to me. It feels like the Castle is trying to make you think you're going the right way, only to deceive you and get you lost in a death trap.
I think that's one of the things that makes SOTN feel so memorable compared to a lot of the Castlevanias that came out in its wake. The Castle feels like it wasn't designed for you to get through in a fair and balanced way. It wants to kill you, and you're only able to beat it with your own wit and perseverance.
I mean it is, that's how the Castle is described in the later games. It's basically alive and changes over time to confuse intruders.
When I was about 17 I bought a used PS1 from a friend with a bunch of games that included SOTN. Some months later I got to actually play SOTN, and since I was sick for a couple of weeks, I discovered the inverted castle all by myself (no internet or friends' suggestions). Then I approached the friend that sold me the PS1 telling him what I found out and he had no idea that he missed half of the game. Poor guy he was so sad.
I remember killing Richter and going "oh well, it was good while it lasted."
Years later, i decided to replay it because of the soundtrack, there, I discovered the inverted castle.
I was literally having the same amount of fun that i had when i was a kid. Sadly, i got an early Crissaegrim, which made me stomp on everything.
@@WithScienceAsMySheperd Yes man, later I found out of Richter too and I played the game. The glass cannon style of Richter was very fun. Only regret is that I never actually beat Galamoth with Richter... Good memories
Omar I know that feeling very well. Alucard commenting how he's a Belmont and why would a vampire hunter ever be the lord of his father's castle was a major hint that there was something missing, and there were areas left unexplored so I said "let's do it".
The exact same thing happened with me
You're exactly describing my story
they really should have lowered the drop chance of crissaegrim a lot...i got one on my first play through as well which makes everything too easy and every subsequent weapon a downgrade.
Maybe I'm dreaming, but I feel like your older videos contained far more commentary on exactly how the design of the game worked. This almost just felt like a review & more time was spent just stating what occurs rather than how & why it does or doesn't work.
Perhaps it's because I've replayed SotN so often, but I feel like I got a lot more insight from your Zelda series. You would mention mechanics I know, but then explained what that meant for the player & why the designers may have made that decision.
Feels the same way.
I really wanted more analysist of the inverted castle: how challenging for the designers to build en ENTIRE world and then flip it upside down to create a new but still playable environnement.
Instead, we kind of ended up with "I didn't like it much" from a player perspective.
@@SocraphTheCat I get the impression he'd had the alternate castle built up in his mind over time, so when he finally played it, rather than a cool bonus he wasn't expecting, he was let down by expectation.
He could also do without name dropping Dark Souls repeatedly as though it somehow retroactively invented most of the things that people liked about it.
@@lemonoreo5762 C'Mon man, that's tongue-in-cheek.
@@JimPanzeeEsq after the first instance it did seem that way, I couldn't be sure as I've not seen any content on this channel before now.
It seems to be an overblown convention by now that all roads lead to DS, I really enjoy those games and they are well executed to a standard not often equalled in the modern era, I just feel the series gets way too much credit rather than not enough.
The other clue that killing Richter is the bad ending is Death's inclusion at the start of the game - Apparently the reason they made the lose your powers being Death stealing them was to help clue in players that this isn't the real final boss because they saw a boss that they hadn't fought yet earlier.
I like the inverted castle, conceptually - re-contextualizes the level you've already explored giving a weird sort of familiarity but new perspective on it, and having five bosses to fight in any order you like is cool and fun. The upgrades you get are just so boring in it, just health and mana upgrades for the most part, compared to what you get in the full castle, meaning it's missing half the fun of a Metroidvania for me - Finding cool stuff and figuring out where to use it, plus I already know the rough layout of everything it's just upside down. I think Dandara's Dreamlands works a lot better for recontextualizing areas you've already been in by having it as a region on the critical path, significantly shrunk, and mixed up with rooms you haven't been in, presented as a really weird puzzle the likes of which I've never seen in a metroidvania before, all while giving you an item you need to progress at the end of it.
My problem with the inverted castle isn't just that the upgrades are boring but that a lot of the challenges are too. Either enemies are super easy, or you're constantly getting juggled and dealt way too much damage.
Another thing that might clue a player in on this would be the fact they haven't retrieved Alucard's starting gear. His cape, sword, shield, etc. These are items you can clearly observe at the start of the game and curiosity for where this stuff has gone would likely settle in. "Where's Death? Why did Richter, a good guy, do this? What about Dracula? Who has all my starting equipment?"
Aren't there also relics you can't get until the inverted castle? Those relic slots being empty in your inventory are another clue I think. Players would have to suspect that there's more to this than it would first appear.
Inverted castle is filled with all the really fascinating and overpowered weapons and armors though. Many of them from rare drops though, so they're easy to miss. The Fist of Tulkas for instance is a great fist weapon that can fire laser beams.
@@audieorlandolilybassoff4069 That is true. There is a bit of a problem with balance in the upside down castle.
I liked the inverted castle. I spent so much time searching every inch of the first castle that I just collected a ridiculous amount of items in my inventory. So the inverted castle gave me a reason to use a lot of that stuff, and really make use of all Alucard's abilities. Most games you become this killing machine and then aimlessly wonder around unchallenged until you decide you'd better just go ahead and finish the game. SOTN made you turn around and work for it. I thought that was great.
The reversed castle blew my 12 year old mind when I was playing this game with a friend, I thought it was one of the coolest things I've seen in a game yet, and considering I didn't get to play many of the "big hits" growing up, getting my hands on a game like this meant countless hours of me combing through it. So I never really noticed the bad things because I wasn't really looking for them. It has its flaws and those are easier to see now, looking back, but daaang this game was top notch
I remember my first time in the reverse castle. I came out of the portal a little confused at first until I saw the room I was just fighting Richter in. Dropped into the hidden treasure room and was a little disappointed because the royal cloak was better than Joseph's cloak so I wouldn't be wearing my personally colored cloak. Explored the entire room before moving on, I loved the skeleton kicking its head around. Then I managed to defeat the giant bat and went into the next room... that was the exact moment the reverse castle blew my mind. The music in that area still rushes my mind with childhood memories.
bro just remember that if you enjoyed it, then the game devs succeeded. not a single developer in that studio made castlevania for mark brown. they all made it for your 12 year old self.
There's a key point you forgot to mention. The game gives you clues about the Upside Down Castle all throughout the game! There are several decorations on the walls, and set pieces that look strange like they don't belong because they are upside down. When you go to the upside down castle, however, NOW they look right and NOW you understand why a lot of those statues and things were put upside down. Also, I'd have to say I don't agree with your opinion about the Upside Down Castle. I thought the game was rather short and I was like "already...?" and then I found the two rings, got the glasses, and freed Richter and a WHOLE NEW CASTLE appeared and I was like "AWESOME! THERE'S MORE!". Wish Super Metroid had done that.... awesome but too short of a game.
Dhalin I'm guessing it's more of how Dragon Quest XI worked. Lots of people hate what they did with post-game while several others, including myself, loved. I'm not even going to spoil it but, it was my first DQ game and I thoroughly loved what they did as if I was a long-term fan.
Well there is more combat. But map is the same so no more exploration and discoveries. I guess ultimately it depends on what it is that you enjoy from the game. But personally I don't want this kind of re-use of assets to be adopted by further more games. I already hated designs like Darksiders 1's endgame section where the game forces you to go back to all the previous areas again in an attempt to just stretch the playtime a bit longer.
I just scanned a map from VGAtlas and I couldn't actually find...any examples of that. There was one sort of upside-down heart and one set of spikes on a ceiling. Definitely didn't see any statues. I'm interested tough...
@@Bucklar Take a close look at the statues in Hellhound/Death's Room, and also Galamoth/that corpse thing's room. Two quick examples. Also, the doors and hallways of the Colliseum in the background.
The Heart I was referring to was in Golamoth's room, tho I did miss the RIP on the ceiling there. I may be misremembering, but isn't this an optional room?
I'm not getting what you mean by the statues in Cerebus/Death's room. The three ladies statues seem right-side up to me. I'm actually sitting in that room right now in-game.
There are some spikes on the ceiling up at the top of the castle, but I really can't seem to find any other hints based on the map itself at all here(though I do think he missed a lot of plot clues, like various dialogues with maria and death).
I think the biggest problem with the inverted castle is expectations. Naturally, if you think you have the same area as the normal Castle but reversed, your brain kinda expects that same length of an experience. In reality you go through the inverted castle much faster, since you have all the abilities already, but it's hard to shake that feeling (or even expect it at first, when you think you're done with the game and suddenly you're dumped this whole another game to get through). I'd hardly say it's a chore because the game is already short, there are much longer games, it's all about expectations really. To me the game didn't overstay its welcome (I beat it and maxed the map several times in a row because I couldn't get enough of it), but I can see how it could have for others.
As for the branching paths and dead ends, I honestly don't know how you can do that any better. If you have a clear path then it's too linear and hand-holdy, the player is just witnessing the game but having no agency on it. The ability to make a poor choice, or go the wrong path makes it more fun to explore because when you discover something, you discovered it, it wasn't the obvious path, you found it. I personally prefer that.
I think that's what I like about Hollow Knight so much, I'm not very far into the game, like 3-4 hours maybe, and the amount of times I've not only come to a dead end, but ended up backtracking several times just to reach that same dead end, then I end up figuring out where to go all on my own, I love that feeling. It makes it feel like I was the one to do it all by myself.
Hi Ferdk, to your second point, I would rewatch the Super Metroid episode of Boss Keys. Mark does an *amazing* job laying out how that game struck a balance between player agency and player frustration in traversing Zebes.
After you defeat Kraid, Super Metroid allows exploration and presents dead ends but never makes you feel like you made a mistake or wasted your time. I think the main difference between that game and Symphony is what Mark points out at 11:35 and 12:01 in this video: the world opens up too quickly and the game fails to reward you meaningfully for exploring it. Who needs a new sword when the bosses are easy to defeat without it? Compare this to Super Metroid, where +5 extra missiles could be the difference between defeating Draygon and getting liquefied. This difficulty balance is just one part of the alchemy that is Super Metroid, but it is indicative of the balances struck in all aspects of the game.
There shouldn't really be "dead ends" in a game such as this, but a difficulty spike of sorts. Something you find somewhere else will make traversal easier or more interesting (alternate paths to the same goal with different experiences). Just like Dark Souls allows you to tackle higher-leveled areas, but never stops you at any point.
Someone creative enough can solve such a problem in a proper way.
Honestly, I never felt bummed by find dead ends in the game either. If anything, it felt mysterious to me, if ppl just notice how many small details are in those dead ends, they reveal so much about what was going on those spots in the past or previous incarnations of the series. Chairs you can sit on that trigger "secrets" and stuff... really... I can only assume ppl do lack imagination now a days...
Ppl call it flaws cause they see the game as a consumable and nothing else, rather than take their time enjoying whats around you and find explanation for why things are the way they are when you found them, etc. Ever wonder why there is a boat traverse working on the slumbers of the castle? Or why there is a locked soul in the clock tower that shakes the bars to call for your attention, but gives up and leaves eventually?
Well said.
oh dude, seriously? the inverted castle is actually what sets sotn apart for me; after learning the layout of the game's world through exploring the regular castle with the map, going through the inverted castle was one of the most unique experiences i've had in a metroidvania. you can't just rely on the map anymore, but instead need to think back and try to remember which rooms are where, and where they lead... while also turning your mental map upside-down! it's that "purposeful backtracking" thing you've mentioned before, just More. when i last played the game i found this really interesting, and thought it was weird that no other games had tried something like this, considering how influential the game was.
i also actually like how awkward the geometry of the rooms is in the inverted castle. not only does it further enhance that feeling of the castle being a "creature of chaos", it also gives off the feeling that it's actively resisting your exploration of it. it's fitting, since you're approaching the end of the game!
anyway, cool video. still looking forward to seeing you tackle la-mulana!
The change also fit your again-expanded movement capabilities. It felt like a step up from platforms two jumps’ distance from each other. I didn’t like animal transformations much so I primarily used the unlockable super jump because it felt more human and anime :P
The inverted alchemy lab sticks out to me the most - filled with dimension-phasing swarms of enemies, the one-jump platforms now form tight little hidey-holes as you thread the needle through enemies.
What I liked about the upside down castle was that it felt it wasn't the same and was curioused how it would look like venturing it the first time. The biggest suprise of all is that there was the upside down castle in the first place.
"actively resisting your exploration".. I think you've said that very well. Like one last stab at defending itself. You've stolen back all the abilities it took from you, so hampering your progress through disorientation is its last stand.
Also spot-on about the mental map. The video mentioned building the mental map, learning the castle, getting to know what connects to what, etc.. Then the game completely screws with that. Up/down left/right.. tall rooms become pits, A doesn't lead to B anymore... You have to back track, but can't rely on the mental map you've been burning into your head. Like the Dark World in Zelda SNES, you know the map, but at the same time, you kinda don't.
I also felt it was an excellent book-end to the intro of the game. You start at full power, charging right through the bad guys, entering the castle. The game turns that upside down, taking your powers away from you to try to stop you. Later, once you have regained your powers, the castle literally turns the game upside down to try to stop you.
@@Hydroculator
there is a much more fitting aspect of the whole thing, the normal castle, is a bit confusing at times, but if you're the lord of the castle, who the monsters don't attack, getting around, save for the hidden rooms which are intentionally out of the way, wouldn't be too much of a hassle, sure it is still designed to be easily defended, bu just demolishing or blocking off a few paths, but it looks functional as a castle someone could actually live in.
the inverted castle on the other hand is designed to protect secrets that the architect wishes to never be found, it's does not need to be comfortable, easy to traverse or in any shape or form functional as a living space, and the layout reflects that.
I agree, i've played the game for the first time a month ago (i was spoiled about this twist thou).
I know it might be a lil weaker if compared to the first castle puzzle and pacing wise, but I really love the concept and new monsters enough to still like it a lot.
I wish i could forget i ever played SotN so i can play it again and have that emotion of the first walk through
Same here!
I just started playing this game this week for the first time. I'm a huge Super Metroid fan and I've had Symphony of the Night on my "must play" list for years, maybe 10 or more, but I never got around to actually doing it until the Castlevania Requiem edition released recently. I now fully understand why it's the second half of "Metroidvania". I'm currently at the beginning of the flipped castle and so far the game has been brilliant. Even 20+ years later it still plays fantastic. Personally, I didn't have any problems finding my way around the castle. I happened to see the hidden path in the clock room right the first time I was in there and I wondered what would happen if I used the time stop pickup in the clock room. That's how I found both of the secret exists. I also completely missed the switch to open up the catacombs, so I didn't accidently explore down there first. It was the last part of the map I hadn't explored and so I went back to see where it could be opened and eventually found the switch. I understand the criticism, but my experience was completely different and I had none of the issues you describe in the video.
Either way, the timing of this video is like you read my mind, Mark.
The dialogue that occurs when you meet Maria for the first time guarantees that you will see the parts of the clock moving around.
@@shogil9880 Exactly.
thats because you are not trying to review and find criticism for the game, you dont need to finish it as quick as possible, you were having fun with the game.
@@marcosdheleno Mark also isn't trying to review the game, or find criticism about it. Nor does he need to finish it as quickly as possible. This video series is about different methods of game design. This isn't an attempt to assess a game's quality. This is an analysis on how parts of the game are structured and to which pros and cons its approach on level design leads.
and yet, it completely disregards how well it was received at the time. at the end of the day, you can say he wasnt trying to rush through, but as someone that not only did enjoy the game when it came out, but saw how people actually reacted to the inverted castle i can tell you, his point of view is nowhere near close to how players felt at the time.
Awesome video once again! I've never actually played this game, but despite the flaws you point out, I still wanna check it out!
So, how was the game?
Really? Like fckn really? This is THE game which started it all. If u are into Metroidvania than this is essential. Gameplay, Soundtrack, my god the soundtrack!
It's a must for any gamer that enjoys anything.
@@ctsperformance1755 I mean that was Super Metroid actually, chronologically speaking.
What flaws? Dont let the egocentric "youtube" making fun of shit then tel you that its good get u, play it by ur self.., the back track is awesome, again... play it by urself.
Aw, I'm sad to hear you didn't like the Inverted Castle, Mark! I've been replaying a LOT of SotN lately (probably because Halloween just ended and all that plus I just love the series to death as a whole) and I actually found a new appreciation for the Inverted Castle. Where as the first castle opens up chunk by chunk as you find power ups to explore with, you go into the Inverted Castle fully armed. And yes, it being inverted I feel plays into why its great: you KNOW the castle layout, so now its being put to the test: you can go anywhere from the get go, so it falls onto your memorization and understanding of the castle as it was before to navigate this upside down one.
Areas that were a cake walk before are now really hard because of the inverted geometry and the enemies are designed around forcing you to rethink how to approach these reversed areas. There's also the fact you enter it from the Castle Keep, so you have two branching paths to explore: the Clock Tower or the Anti-Chapel. The "roadblocks" in those areas are gone too, like the statue blocking the way into the Collesieum from the Chapel, so you quickly have a massively sprawling maze that requires you make some strong decision making in deciding the path you take. Essentially the Inverted Castle is one big FINAL EXAM on everything you learned playing the game up until that point, and I love it for that.
That said there is soemthing to be said about how the game does let you slowly fly around everything as a bat and how really easy the bosses can get (enemies not so much just due to the virtue of them being able to gang up on you), I personally would've made the bat form a LOT more draining on your MP when using it so you can't just cruise control it (and make things like the Gravity Boots more viable as a traversing item), because like you said in your "Protecting Players from Themselves" video, if a gamer finds a path of least resistance to something... they will in general always try and take advantage of that, and rob themselves of an actual fun experience, and I kind of feel like that happened to you here cuz yeah the bat form invalidates a lot of the navigation challenge and map memorization the inverted castle offers. Oh well!
METROID PRIME BOSS KEYS HYPPPEEEE
I agree I was also sad to hear he didn't enjoy the inverted castle. Back in the day it was amazing but by today's standards it's just meh. People just don't appreciate the origins of cliches.
The inverted castle is much more enjoyable if you use the gravity boots (attention: you can also jump diagonally) and mist form to navigate the map (unless using wing smash). In fact I would argue from that point of view it's as enjoyable as the normal castle.
The inverted castle is terrible.
I really love this show. It makes me look at game design in ways that I never have before, and each new episode is a such a treat.
for a second i thought you were talking about netflix's castlevania series
"Gory, 300-style battle in Assassin's Creed: Odyssey"
Dude, that literally IS the battle of 300 XD
Yeah I was like ' Has he never heard of the Battle of Thermopylae? '
15% game design discussion 85% walkthrough
there's some necessity in discussing the layout in a game of this genre, i also feel disappointed with the lack of a mention of bosses other than dracula, more on the actual level design would've been neat
@@dmas7749 To be fair, most bosses of the game are forgettable.
@@fy8798: even so that doesn't mean they're still worth talking about
and besides while i wouldn't say they're particularly memorable they aren't forgettable either to me
That's pretty much how his Boss Keys videos work... It walks you through how you progress the dungeon.
@@RichardHannay: which should include the bosses and such
Where's the graph? 🙁
I don't think it's really boss keys without being 50% graphs
Yeah! I kept waiting for the graph to appear, but then the video ended and there was no graph? I feel betrayed!
Boss keys without a map is like sex without a climax
0/10 literally unwatchable
@@truthwatcher1808
Well, a map was there, but no graph...
9:58 The Shaft edit is awesome! What a great, in-depth, fun video! Much thanks.
A lot of this is exactly how I felt about Hollow Knight. Aside from getting my tail whooped at the worst possible moments (or worse, dying on the way to get my moolah back) I just never felt like I knew what I was "supposed" to be doing. Of course I also have a tendency to be pretty bad about picking up on "tells" or remembering where I saw them and what they mean, so it could be that. I'll have to finish it someday.
Hollow Knight is my all-time favourite game, because the point is to just get lost in this super intriguing world.
If you want though, you could use a guide. After a bit you do find the main objective of the game though.
I somehow never died when trying to reclaim myself. I thought I might after the first death in Deepnest so I dropped my money off in the bank..... never actually failed to reclaim myself, brilliant placement for that bank. I did once kill my shade as I died though. I was quite nervous about whether or not I lost cash while heading back, but I didn't.
Their tells are either nonexistent or generic with basically no in-between. They even copy the bat one from this game.
But it also has several added problems the developers should have addressed, because they make the first few hours of the game tedious for no reason-- having to buy map upgrades from a character who moves to new areas instead of at least acquiring them for free like in Metroid, having to buy map MARKERS for some reason, knocking yourself backwards by default when you successfully land an attack and having a powerup that prevents it instead of the other way around despite the fact the ability to do so doesn't become beneficial until later. Limiting the amount of power-ups you can have behind yet more money grinding.
Of course, how close a game is to Metroid/Castlevania doesn't determine how good it is, but when instead of unique additions it stands out for bringing back mistakes of old games or making them worse, it leaves a lot to be desired. I'm glad I bought it on sale, 'cause it's definitely not a $15 game.
@@dandynoble2875 glad the developers didn't listen to anyone like you. Those "problems" aren't really problems in my eyes. Never actually found myself grinding for money because it seems to come in abundance by just playing the game, and not having a map marker caused me to actually learn the game's layout instead of immediately offloading the information the moment I saw it because it's no longer needed. I never needed markers either, found em to be a waste of money, at least the markers you place yourself. The knocking yourself backwards with every attack isn't even a big problem at all. It can be charmed away, and it's an aspect I preferred to not charm away after awhile. Sometimes it's advantageous to move away after an attack so that somewhat already happening... It does need charming away in Queens Garden, but that's really the only place.
@@dandynoble2875 "it's definitely not a $15 game"
I don't think I've ever more strongly disagreed with a comment about this game. There are easily 20 to 30 hours of content in the base game material alone on a first playthrough; include the side content added on by the DLC, and my first file easily got up to 60 hours. The fact that it's all dripping in visual and aural polish and has a well-thought-out story tying it together is the cherry on top. Even if you don't agree with its priorities, it is an insult to the insane amount of effort and care that went into its creation to call its low cost of entry excessive.
Actually, in a certain sense, I guess you're right--it's not a $15 game. It's more like a $30 game!
As for the rest of your comment:
The store's balance is pretty on point. I found that I made more than enough geo simply by progressing through the game to regularly get new goodies from Sly and Salubra. It helps that, to my recollection, only one key traversal aid is actually locked behind a purchase--the lumafly lantern--and you can absolutely beat the game without it (although lacking it would make Deepnest rather painful). Functionally, the geo-based item progression serves a similar role to leveling up in the Castlevania games: ensuring that the player character gradually grows more powerful as the game progresses. I don't see anything wrong with that.
I consider Hollow Knight's map system one of its best features. Only being able to fill out the map once you've done some exploring and then returned to a bench creates a wonderfully uneasy feeling of pushing out into parts unknown that no other Metroid-like has really given me. The initial hunt for Cornifer whenever I entered a new area was always a good forward motivator (the fact that he's so difficult to miss, with his loud humming and trail of parchment, certainly helps make getting to him a natural first goal). Sure, you have to buy the quill at the beginning to get the ability to fill out the map, but that costs a measly 100 geo (as do all the pin sets, each of which gives you 6 reusable markers, which should be more than enough), and contributes, just as all the rest of these systems, to Hollow Knight's wonderful sense of groundedness--even the act of filling out your map or checking over your inventory is something your character is actually doing in-universe.
The slight knockback on attacks adds a satisfying level of tactile feedback to the game's melee combat that the Castlevania games--and many other action platformers I've played--lack. It's also what justifies the downward slash pogo move, which is one of the things that makes Hollow Knight's combat so great (and so deceptively deep). It doubles as a neat traversal tool available from the beginning and an incredibly useful combat technique that can help you avoid damage and deal it at the same time. I appreciate that Steady Body is there for those who absolutely cannot adapt to the knockback, but in my view, if you ever put that charm on, you're just flat-out playing the game wrong.
Also, your complaint about tells is just... completely incorrect. There are many, many tells for both the path to the basic ending and the path to the "true" ending, in terms environmental cues, hints provided by characters in the game, and outright signposting (i.e., the Hollow Knight memorial marking the Temple of the Black Egg and Resting Grounds marking the dreamers' locations). You just have to be invested enough to pick up on them.
“Something that would make the game last a bit longer for its players.”
SotN Richter Mode speedruns are fucking insane, man.
Have you ever looked at La-Mulana? You'd have a field day with that game.
More like a field month.
He should have a field day with BOTH of those games.
Fun fact: someone has actually gone and made a progression graph of La-Mulana in the same vein that Mark has done in the series.
Should not be overtly impossible to find, as I get it as the first result for Google image searching "La-Mulana flowchart". I however take no responsibility for any potential jaw dislodgement upon seeing it.
That game is so obtuse that it's almost not fun.
Yes, it takes lineage from a lot of "exploration" dungeon crawlers and platformers from the obscure Japanese computers.
And yes, very obtuse and almost rubs a "git gud" on your face.
I think the backtracking and dead ends are an intentional mechanic to help you build levels without feeling like a pointless grind.
Especially if you take the path into the inverted castle. Sure you CAN go anywhere, but there's a pretty steep difficulty spike that is sort of the game's way of saying "you don't belong here (yet), kid."
The whole inverted castle is kind of like a quick second run-through hard mode, if you will, but you get some new palettes, music, and enemies to add variety.
I loved the inverted castle, found it rewarding and empowering. Not everything good in game design is about progression, with the RPG elements the grind and mindless fun is a reward itself.
Im kinda surprised, normally these videos are more analytical and about the design of the games, but half of this video was just expressing random boredom and ripping on the second half of the game which at the time was actually ridiculously exciting since there wasn't really any internet around and you would have discovered that the game you enjoyed for the last 20 hours has yet more content to explore.
Yeah, I get the feeling that Mark really hates SOTN for some reason but had to make a video on it someday.
Having played through this game very recently (within the past three months) and knowing next to nothing about it other than the fact that Richter was a boss in this game, I share a lot of the same feelings with Mark. After beating the game (inverted castle and all,) I looked online to see what other secrets the game held and was surprised to read that people seriously didn't know about the inverted castle and that some thought it was a secret.
It wasn't hard for me to get through the game, and once I got to the inverted castle, I was happy to have more SotN to play. But I was agitated by the fact that I had to use the bat to go everywhere. I thought it was a bit lazy to do it like they did, but was happy to see new bosses. And I knew right where to go to get to Dracula because of where you get the Holy Glasses from. But it was pretty tedious to get through the inverted castle because of its design.
Maybe it's because of my experience in games, having played too much Metroid, but I don't think it was that exciting. I wasn't ever bored, however, so they did something right there.
There is one thing I really think is objectively bad in the inverted castle, however, and that's the Alucard Shield. most OP weapon in the game like what c'mon Konami what are you doing
@@TheRUclipsGame I feel like valmanway is just as strong. or crissaegrim whichever you want to call it. But at the time that this game came out this was something mostly completely new that we've only gotten a glimpse of in the metroid series - which then never really made any big return. The design philosophies still hold up today but this wasn't that objective of a review imho.
@@TheRUclipsGame brilliantly, IGA didn't even know about the alucard shield. he sat in with romscout doing a speedrun and was shocked when he saw it. it goes to show how much creative freedom was likely happening on the game under his nose - but i don't think we need the Alucard Shield to show us that. the game feels like a nutty developer party.
@@SleepingCocoon Because IGA wasn't the director of this game. He was the ASSISTANT DIRECTOR. I'm sick of the myth that Iga was the only person behing SOTN. The Director was actually Toru Hagihara, who also directed Rondo.
"Inspired by the Legend of Zelda- not Metroid, as one might assume..."
That HAVE to have taken SOME inspiration from Metroid, the maps look almost exactly the same.
Yeah he's totally lying
He's not saying there is no Metroid inspired parts of the game. He just said that the main source of this idea was Zelda. The actual implementation ended up using many Metroid created techniques, but he was referring to original inspiration.
@megahunter Metroid did more for the genre than Castlevania, but they also contributed a whole bunch. Hollow Knight has a Dracula inspired boss. It also has melee combat. Castlevania also introduced RPG elements and item collection, and inspired a musical style.
I always thouht all that Igarashi's "It was inspired by Zelda" talk was 100% bullshit. It is obvious that the structure of the game was entirely based on Super Metroid.
Hey Mark, amazing video as always. I absolutely love talking about world and level and game design in general and to have such a talented RUclipsr talk about it and analize it such depth, it only makes my passion grow even more. Thanks for your efforts in putting this kind of content together, and I hope you get the same joy out of doing it as I get watching it. Keep up the good work man! Cheers!
"It's like Dark Souls" - Mark Brown (c. 2000 A.D.)
Thank you for showing the game properly scaled and sharp! That's a big pet peeve of mine to a fault. I don't know how many passes you did, but the encoding is also perfect. Awesome production.
I disagree so much.
The fact that the game is a linear stretch at first is great, since it makes you feel like it's gonna be just another Castlevania with a bit more exploration, and then BAM: You can pick where to go next. Kinda like FF7 and Midgard, you thought the whole game was gonna be Midgard, and then BAM! Open world like the previous games.
As for the final power up letting you grab 10 relics, that's actually kinda smart, the game opens up more and more the further you progress, culminating in the Inverted Castle: You can explore the castle in any way that you wish, it's the ultimate Metroidvania in that regard. The game has built up to that. And it's not just 'a segment', like MGS 2's Katana thingie, it's the entire castle, but with tougher enemies and bosses.
Harmony of Dissonance would attempt the same thing with Castle A and Castle B, but it just didn't work very well.
Dude, you can explore but can't do any meaningful progress. It is not like Super Metroid where you can kill the 4 main bosses in reverse order. Doesn't matter if you can explore far, you are just going to reach a dead end in SotN.
@@TQM470 You can actually do quite a bit in different order. Not sure what you are talking about.
@@systemafunk Are you talking about the reversed castle? The most boring part of the game imo.
@@TQM470 No, I'm talking about the regular castle. There is a fair amount you can do out of the normal order.
You can only kill the 4 bosses in SM in a different order with sequence breaking. There's actually more you can do in SotN without sequence breaking, and if you do add in sequence breaking, you can do a lot of the bosses and get a lot of items out of order.
I was literally looking for a video like this yesterday. And here it is. Thank you. :)
Goddamn dude, your VFX for the dungeon map are tight af. So clean and informative while looking really nice and flowing well with the rest of the video. Its been nice seeing your channel grow, so excited for the future as you are clearly a powerful force in this department
Maybe it's just a preference thing, but while I understand your criticisms I don't personally agree with them. Maybe it's just because I've beaten the game several times and I know the mechanics really well, but I really enjoy how the world is laid out and what it allows you to do. I like that it's a game that allows you to make your own path through the world, and isn't afraid to let you fail as so many games are.
Even when you go down a dead end and 'waste' 15 minutes you've still become stronger for it and learned more about the castle, so it's still progress in a way. Even if you wander down every path you can that isn't the correct one, it has a purpose and the game doesn't tell you that it was all pointless, because you'll probably come back there later. I also love that it's possible to skip around and sequence break a whole lot in Symphony, using tricks such as jump-kicking you can get up into the clocktower early and do things out of order, which lends some variety to replays if you know how to do it.
Then there's the inverted castle, which doesn't last nearly as long as the first 'half' of the game considering you already know the layout and have all the powers you need to traverse it, and is really impressive from a technical standpoint that they built every single room in the game to work equally well upside-down as rightside-up. The inverted castle feels more like a victory lap to me than anything else, because all of the skills you've learned, gear you've acquired, and powers you've found now blend together seamlessly and let you truly handle it however you choose to and much more quickly than the normal castle.
Like I said, perhaps I just have different preferences and more experience with the game, but while I understand your criticisms they don't land for me personally. Great video though. Oh yeah, and where was the dependency chart?
(I assume once this video goes public this comment will be buried, so I'll put it on Patreon too.)
But they didn't properly design the terrain to work well inverted. The upside-down castle is a terrible chore to navigate.
"Even when you go down a dead end and 'waste' 15 minutes you've still become stronger for it"
I feel like this is where SotN totally misses the mark. For me, anyway. The powerups of the game barely accomplish anything because the game is balanced so damn poorly. After you get the double jump there's pretty much nothing you can do to make it hard up until the Upside Down Castle, and even there only a few bosses can be challening.
Even on the first playthrough, when I didn't know about the difficulty, constantly missing that single path annoyed me more than anything. Afterwards, when I knew it, but forgot the map layout, it was even worse. It really didn't help that pretty much all the required areas after the blue door are tiny rooms shoved somewhere in the corner. Next Metroidvanias really learned their lessons with that, and while it's still easy to get lost in them, I feel like the map designs are much better.
Still, I feel like Symphony is way more memorable. What I like about the game is how it's extremely weird and full of ideas. From combo-spells to easter eggs, strange items it never felt like we got a true successor to it, with other Metroidvanias being a bit more predictable.
@@Waffletigercat I will admit, I don't feel the same way. I just played through Symphony again about a week ago and still loved it, and thought the upside-down castle was great. If you have double-jump and understand some of the other traversal mechanics like jump-kicking you really can zip through the place, especially if you have the jump boots that let you do the magic jump. As I said before, maybe it's just a preference thing but the whole experience works really well for me, and the upside-down castle is no exception.
He criticized the same in Zero mission and Super Metroid vids too. He acknowledged sequence break and advanced techniques but didn't count them in "main progression", which is fair. But for me, those little touches play really big role in my overall enjoyment xD
I have to say I agree with Kenny on this. I'm a game developer and surprisingly enough I just recently played this game for the first time. It is an incredibly well balanced game, the map is a work of art, the uniqueness of the weapons is incredible. How many games give you weapons and armor who's stats change with how long you've played the game, or how much of the map you've covered? or give you a weapon that behaves completely differently depending on what shield you have equipped? This game is a masterpiece. The few short comings I could say it suffers from is the spells are quite difficult to fire off, making them unreliable in a fight so they seldom get used I think. And when you get hit, there should be a very slight increase in the duration of time before you can take another hit. Many times I see people getting hit several times because the character literally can't move fast enough after recovering from the stun of being hit to get out of the way before being hit again. Other than that this game is absolutely incredible in my opinion.
The thing I like about the Inverted Castle is really the enemies. Newer, more powerful items, tougher fights, and interesting combat challenges...if you choose to embrace them.
Lemme esplain. Once you know how to cast the spell and can afford it, mana-wise, you could just Soul Steal your way through most of the game, or item-farm till you get a Crissaegrim and just slice-n-dice everything you see, and that's a valid option. But I feel like doing that robs the latter half of the game of a fundamental element of challenge and fun. I've never been able to do it myself, but I imagine beating Galanoth without use of the Crissaegrim would bring a very Souls-esque sense of accomplishment and satisfaction.
i got that sword and it made everything way easier. But once i found all secrets the entire game is easy to play for me. Like You can get the leap ston right after getting the wolf's soul and skip everything quite fast
you are a fountain of knowledge, especially when it comes to interesting indie games. Keep it up my guy
I personally LOVED the upside down castle bit when the game first came out. I really like just poking around the map in these games and finding items, so I was super excited that I basically got what felt like a second game to do that in.
the game had also the luxury of giving tons of special moves. Shield had 2 button press abilities, some weapons had shoryuken input style attacks that was very strong and cool. On top of that character and its morphs have special skills 360 input for aoe lifesteal, the dracula fireball with charged attack and more that I can't remember. And there was some rare 0.5% loots too, for example the medusa shield that petrify the whole screen. Well you end the game in 1 or 2 nights because VERY EASY but it had replay/self speed run value because it was gorgeous and had amazing gameplay feeling. This game is still better than most current metroidvanias overall. It is definitely one of the best game of its decade.
I really enjoy how Timespinner handled world progression. With the exception of two parts (I still have no idea what triggers lowering the drawbridge, and the fast travel pyramids felt like something you just had to stumble upon), I felt like the game was both open and focused at the same time.
Thanksss finally i was waiting for this video to come out, love boss keys!
1:51 "WHAT??!!!" Still cracks me up the same way it did when i heard it in 98'
Good work, Mark. I’m looking forward to the next one since Metroid Prime is one of my favorite games.
Never had I ever experienced anything like it when back in 2002 I was introduced to SOTN. One of the best games of the era, so revolutionary, it actually inspired and created its own genre. I recently picked it up for a run on the PSX emulator and even after almost 20 years of completing the game, I find myself mesmerized at the love and attention put into this masterpiece. I only wish we go back to that stage where designing a game was more of an art than a job position where greedy devs set a montage with the solemn purpose of milking their way out of us gamers.
Great video! Your graphics are sleek. You echoed a lot of the sentiments I had when I played this game a little while back. My favorite part was the animations especially the cape and bat form wings.
I enjoyed this. Been following the series for a while. Definitely stoked for more!
“The game is ridiculously easy”
Yeah let’s leave galamoth as a surprise
It's funny because he takes hits by even the dumbest enemies.
Well once you get Alucard's shield the rest of the game kinda becomes a joke
Yeah, if you are at least decent at the game, not the case with this channel owner, really good with theory, really bad at the real thing.
And yes, Galamoth is a pain in the ass without knowing he's cheese tactics.
What you claim is done wrong by the game is what I think they got right. Castlevania is a sprawling, ever changing monster of a building and the ability to just simply get lost or overwhelmed plays into the narrative and atmosphere of the game. I say this is critical to the game and it's success.
First video I see from you, and I immediately subbed. This is some good stuff.
This video is a godsend. I stopped playing the game years ago because I couln't find that path in the clock room.
Igarashi didn't lead the team for SotN...
I just read that for the first time the other day. This myth seems very widespread.
yeah, Toru Hagihara deserves way more credit for this (and he also directed Rondo!).
IGA and his over saturation of Metroidvanias is also the reason Castlevania died. He gets way too credit, just like Inafune.
@@richterbelmont2 I noooo'ed so hard at this. It's not the reason Castlevania bit it. The real reasons are that Castlevania face planted themselves during the transition to 3D that they couldn't really recover from and Money cuz sales for the series actually wasn't meeting expectations.
Every time Dark Souls is mentioned in gaming discussion, an angel dies.
Another amazing video! Keep it up man!
I really like the humour in this, and all the amazing info, thank you
I guess Hollow Knight actually stands right in the middle regarding its open-ness. I'd be very interested in learning your opinion and thoughts on this little masterpiece.
I think it's actually more open. Once you make it through the second or third area the game branches out a ton, with just about every path being rewarding.
It's amazing how different my 2nd playthrough of HK was. Ended up taking a totally different route by complete accident.
@@danielleanderson6371 I know for a fact that he's not gonna like the Dreamers locations being revealed. Considering his Zero Mission video.
YES PLEASE FEATURE HOLLOW KNIGHT!!!
He's mentioned that a Hollow Knight video is planned. I'm really interested to see if his criticisms match my own, since this series is about pointing out places that could be improved upon. It's easy to make a video about a great game's good points, so it's refreshing to see him point out the less stellar parts and leave the plainly obvious positives out of it. Though I suppose giving the really good things a quick mention is helpful in case some viewers have never played the game.
I never had problems exploring the castle, but maybe that's because I have a good memory for details. There are multiple dead ends you can run into showing you that there's a way into the central area (Colosseum) and there's a reason why you first run into Maria in the clock room; it's to cement that room in your memory, and even give you a chance to see the statue move. SotN does a great job of the show-don't-tell type of design that we see a lot in this genre. I only have three big complaints with it. 1) Too easy. 2) Could use more story in the inverted castle, maybe by having the bosses holding Vlad's parts provide some dialogue. 3) the lack of custom map markers/limited teleports. I guess it also would have helped if each castle had had at least one unique area to differentiate them more.
I've been eagerly anticipating this one! Thanks!
Man I'm so happy someone broke into this games flaws. I had people telling me this game was the lick and I literally hit every problem you mention here Mark!
"was the lick" never heard that phrase but I like it. And I agree.
I actually loved the upside down castle, i was just a little kid back then and i used to play to bring my friend over to play this game together, whenever one of us dies the other one than it's the other's turn lol. I remember when we solved the mystery of that ring we were like wow we discovered something, we felt like experts navigating that inverted castle we were like nice try game. Well... rip konami, 1997 - 2015
The upside down castle is pretty fun when you use the gravity boots and mist form instead of the bat (expect when using wing smash).
doesn't that thing in the middle clock room move the first time you walk in and talk to Maria? it's happened on every one of the dozen or so playthroughs i've done of this game, right as you're walking in and about to talk, which is the hint toward something being there.
Toru Hagihara definitely deserves mention, being the game's main director and producer. it's not just an IGA joint. even the GBA and DS titles for the most part are likely due to the work of Shinichiro Shimamura, Akihiro Minakata, Satoshi Kushibuchi, Takashi Takeda, and Koji Horie, who were the designers and directors for most of those games - Shinichiro Shimamura and Takashi Takeda being recurring names as designer and director. IGA strikes me as a bit of an Inafune. how many credits does he even have out of the Metroidvanias? programming on PC Engine ports of Gradius II & Detana TwinBee, writing on Tokimeki Memorial? ok, maybe less than an Inafune. 🤔
Incredibly insightful analyses that not only analyze this title, but really open up my mind in terms of how I'll look at other similar "hurrdurrmetroidvania" games.
Loved it!
Thank you for this video! Thanks for your time and your work :)
That was tough. When I first played this game (being around 13yo) I loved how the game gave you many more of hours of gameplay with the reverse castle. I suppose I wouldn't feel the same if I play it now for the first time.
Still I think SotN is a perfect complement for Super Metroid. Two masterpieces that feel really different.
And the soundtrack of SotN is perhaps my favourite of all time.
I feel the exact same way as you. I literally agree with everything in this comment.
You are underestimating the map, it's very easy to find and explore the incomplete parts of it, you always know the areas where you haven't visited yet.
You are also underestimating the value of the reward in discovering new items, all of them with different animations and abilities, plus the various hidden secrets out there.
You never feel like you are just wasting time.
In the worst case scenario, you'll at least gain experience.
Which, incidentally, is a system you haven't even mentioned.
In Aonuma Words:
“Challenging something in a way that ‘I think this is going to work’ and then discovering that ‘Oh, this isn’t going to work,’ it’s not actually that much of a painful experience. It’s actually fun. It’s a sense of discovery and as we’re developing this, I thought to myself, “Maybe this is what it means to create a big world, to find out that getting lost is OK.”
in the worst case scenario you'll gain experience, underestimate a strong enemy, get stunlocked to death because of alucard's lack of hit invulnerability and lose all that progress
and i highly beg to differ for the inverted castle and backtracking
Here's the dif: in BOTW getting lost always led to somewhere interesting. In SOTN (and cough.. Hollow Knight.. cough...) the getting lost doesn't really lead anywhere. Dead ends... And more importantly: dead ends after a long time thinking it was leading somewhere. That might be the key.
@@mymusikrawks Getting lost in SotN always lead you to treasure or interesting secrets.
It may be a new weapon with interesting properties, a new shield (with means a new summon) or something tottaly different like a easteregg or secret event.
Even the enemies counts as something interesting since they have different and interesting designs, death animations and cool item drops.
@@dmas7749 B-but... SotN wasn't one of the easiest Castlevanias ever? :v
I think that going where you arent suppose to end up balancing the difficulty overall.
But I feel you, I think that Dark Souls improve over the SotN formula giving you the opportunity do go back and get your experience points back, etc
@@l3rvn0: no, that title belongs to aria
i actually died on my most recent casual run and symphony is one of the three i'm extremely familiar with, the other two being ecclesia and circle
Love the Boss Keys series. Keep up the good work!
I'm recalling my excitement when I discovered the upsidedown level.. that was a real "twist".
I want to say the first time I played the game, while I had played other Metroidvania games prior to that point in 2010, my initial reaction was something like "wow, I get even more stuff to explore."
Nowadays, I think that back when SotN first released the Inverted Castle was a novel concept at the time but nowadays it could be seen as extra padding to get more playtime out of the player.
On one hand, it's cool and good cause you have more stuff to do, but on the other hand, it's not cool and good since it's just the first castle but upside down so the element of surprise isn't really there anymore on a first playthrough as far as actually exploring goes, the bosses in the Inverted Castle being an exception since if you don't know where any of them are you're bound to just run into them regardless of if it's one of the bosses that has an item to go to the final boss or just one of the random ones that are completely optional.
MACZ2021, the problem with that argument is that, it COMPLETELY ignores the market at the time, people can call it padding now, but back then? players got a game a month and that was it, hell, most got a few at most during holydays and that was all they had for the year, if they didnt go out to rent, of trade with friends.
a game that was incredibly fun, and that suddenly had a secret part were you could explore the entire thing, but upside down? that was unheard of, its more than novel, it was awersome.
however, if all you want to do is speedthrough then sure, call it padding.
Maybe you unraveled the secrets of the castle's layout. But you will never discover why the Master librarian's theme is so catchy
Better yet how has he not been killed in a castle full of monsters.
Waiting for the next video of Metroid GameCube ! Hope you are well, keep the nice summering and analysis in your series ;)
Hey Mark, new sub here! Absolutely love your analysis and critiques on games. Can't wait for your MP1 video!
You can actually go a third way off of the initial path - when I was young and played it in 1997 I didn't have any guides or the interwebs, so I went to the Clock Tower after the Outer Wall. In wolf form you can clear the crumbling bridges - his running jumps cover a ton of distance and as long as you jump as soon as you touch down in the middle of the bridge, you can jump again and clear the gap (reload the level if you make a bridge fall to bring it back). Trick here is to clear out all of the floating skulls so they don't hit you out of your jump (you can jump out a bit further, then correct back to solid ground to catch ones off screen). Once you get inside the tower, the second platform will seem unreachable without the double jump. Again with the wolf, launch yourself off the staircase prior with a run jump and you can reach it. Takes a couple shots, but it's not as hard as it sounds. I didn't even know I was doing anything wrong until a couple years later a friend showed me the intended path, lol. Clock Tower is pretty damn hard that early, so it's a lot of fun. :)
Hm. While it was a fun watch, I am a bit (just a bit) disappointed at the lack of analysis in this video. It's mostly just a review. And I even agree with the review, for the most part! I just hoped for a bit more, well, bite that you usually have.
As for disagreeing, I feel the only thing I disagree with is "wrong paths". I feel this to be a good idea. If you can never make the "wrong" move, you can never explore. It's like Dark Souls: Venturing down the Great Hollow is definitely "wrong", but it's FUN, and that is the good bit!
"Wrong paths" are like bonus levels, they are extra content for those that get to them. The criticism of them feels very weird.
If a game is good, does it matter if this path is not critical for completing it? Aren't we playing the game because the gameplay is fun, rather than just completing it as fast as possible?
This right here, absolutely
(I haven't played the game)
I guess it's more that he thinks the game lets you go too far into those wrong paths, not that their existences itself is bad. He thinks the game should have opted for a slightly more non-linear item progression, or give you better optionnal content(which he seems to think is generally not worth it because the game is apparently easy).
@@legrandliseurtri7495 Having played the game I don't know about that. The biggest example of this, the caverns, may be the "wrong" way as opposed to the long staircase at the chapel. But the exit from said caverns puts you not far from where you'd end up if you hadn't gone down there. It really ends up being in your best interest to take this route anyway.
i feel like hollow knight is a good example of why you don't need wrong paths, in that game you can stumble into almost any area by chance making the experience very unique every time you play (my first playthrough I didn't discover the dream area until very late into the game)
More Boss Keys, my day just got better! Thanks MB!
It would be cool to see you tackle enemy design, boss design, ability design and so much more. Great channel, keep it up
I think it'd be cool if you did a deeper dive into the "Abilitease" as it varies across games, genres, and different implementations.
Shaft: "Oh yeah! You're so damn right!!"
The first time you meet Maria in the clock room, the path opens up immediately after the conversation regardless of time just to show you, for the record
One of the best channels of gaming and my inspiration for my blog! Thanks for the excellent video! I couldn't wait for Metroid Prime!!!
Can't wait for Metroid Prime next year!
I haven't see the video yet, but he has said that? I want to see his video about Metroid Prime, it's my favourite game.
@@afxboc
He's working his way through the Metroid series, and he's teased Prime a couple of times
I really don't follow you on the upside-down castle being poorly designed. I loved every minute of it on my first playthrough, and I love it entirely every other time I replay it. I think I know where you went wrong in your analysis though (and I don't fault you, given the purpose of this series); you analyzed the entire first castle for its level design and story creation within that level, then applied the same analysis to the second castle. In reality the second castle isn't about level anymore, it's about maximizing exploration. The entire first castle is set up to gently guide you through a linear option, while gently rewarding you for exploration, until you hit that first ring, which becomes a huge reward. At that point, the game has transitioned from equally rewarding both linearity and exploration to almost entirely rewarding exploration without encouraging linearity at all anymore. By the time you reach the second castle, you really don't want to go back to being limited by certain items or powers, you just want to take everything you gained in castle 1 and use it in creative ways throughout the new castle. And the whole time, you are getting stronger and better items to maximize your character. You get new challenges in stronger enemies, and your exploration drive (which has been greatly rewarded now) pushes you to find as much as you can. Remember, at this point you still haven't found all your original Alucard Equipment. That alone drives you to keep looking.
Really my only complaint about castle 2 is the lack of clarity on the end-goal. You get the feeling that you should hit that clock room again, with some special items probably. But the bosses you kill don't give you any clues, just relics that power you up more. The association between the organs of Vlad and the clock door opening is extremely weak compared to the ring clues given earlier. If the relics gave you no power-ups, it would be more clear that they must serve some other purpose; however, in a castle built entirely on powering up through finding items, a few more items that power you up with minor buffs just feel insignificant storyline-wise. The first time I reached Dracula's clock room, I had no idea how I got it to open up. I actually equipped the silver and gold rings again before entering the room, and just happened to have the relics, so I mislead myself. Took me a couple more playthroughs to figure out what triggered the clock room to open up again.
But honestly where castle 1 is a beautiful mix of linearity and exploration, castle 2 is really more about maximization. Everything from the missing Alucard equipment, to the map percentage breaking the 100% mark, and the discovery of an optional superboss lead to the player wanting to find everything and get their character as strong as possible. The end of the game becomes less important, which is the ultimate trick for making a game with maximum replay value.
I really love your videos man :)
I really like how my way of progressing through the game rooms is different from the way it was presented in the video, even though it's the most natural way for me to progress. Anyway, great video as always, I can't wait for the next one!
How about analyzing the DSvanias? I know that the GBAvanias are a little outdated, but the DS castlevanias are on par with SOTN.
Only Circle of the Moon and Harmony of Dissonance really aged imo. Aria of Sorrow is still on par with the NDS IGAvanias.
No way! Aria and Circle are classics.
@@Yoshideking Circle was my first GBA game!
Circle and Aria are better than the DS ones, imo. Harmony is the worst of the 7 games though.
@@tonystarrk4859 your personal opinion. Circle is really unpolished. Aria is great, but suffers from the limitations of the gba hardware. Only the ds trilogy could realize the same level of detail in graphics and gameplay seen on Symphony.
I'm surprised you didn't mention the really awkward way of getting into the catacombs below the cavern area. Having to carefully escort the barrel throwing skeleton over to the wooden bridge to have him destroy it would be a good way to hide a weapon, life up or optional relic but its weird how an entire area of the game that is necessary to go to for completion of the game is hidden behind this strange puzzle that is unlike anything else in the game.
it's like that one game, i forgot the title, but there is a massive dead end and you can spend hours wondering where to go next
and apparently, the way to move forward is that, there is an opponent that you NEED to spare, because doing so will form a bridge or something like that
so, killing this opponent essentially makes the game unbeatable.
which is absolutely stupid, because this is a castlevania-style action game where you move forward and kill everything in path. there is absolutely no hint at all that you need to spare this one opponent (the one and only in this game) and no hint that the game is now unbeatable if you kill him
EDIT: the game is called "shadow of the beast"
@@riverpb5250 Lol really? That sounds dumb. Good thing the enemies respawn in this game and they show you how the puzzle works.
@@Masterlink01 i had to search for it
"shadow of the beast"
and apparently, there is a sequel, which, upon research, is just as horrible as the first one with dead ends that you wouldn't know after like hours of playing the game.
Great video Mark. I'm playing the game for the first time and have been running in circles after geting the leap stone. Now I know I've been taking the dead end paths. For me, rewiring my brain to explore various rooms rather than take a linear path has been a challenge. Thanks again for the help.
I'm excited for your videos on MP1 and hopefully MP2.
As Iga himself put, no one understood the design of the game and it was western unfriendly, there is almost no trash weapons, most weapons have a ( v + -> + ^ + attack) special ability or element, they are designed to specific fights and are not mandatory, but beating maria boss fight on the Saturn version without the dark sword is... hard... And you can skip the item hunting altogether by leveling up, so in the end the game is design to be easy by Japanese standards of difficulty in games in the 90's
When the game was near completion they noticed that only a few weapons and combos could defeat Galamoth for that they added the Allucard's Shield and Shield Rod combo.
Studying this game's design for the last 20 years i discovered that, everything i thought was unnecessary or out of place was actually a very well thought design process.
Uh, not really. Saying SotN has no trash weapons is kind of ridiculous. There's tons of weapons that have almost no use. There's also a lot of nearly useless items. Especially since it is fairly hard to not level up unless you are speed running. Now, maybe if you were playing really fast, they could be useful, but then you're probably not going to be picking them up then.
If you aren't speed running, then the game is really only challenging with Richter, and then items don't matter.
I love Iga, I full on backed Bloodstained and I didn't care if they delivered. Michiru and Iga have delivered greatness to me many times. They deserve my sixty bags with dollar signs on them. But when he says it was inspired by Zelda and not Super Metroid, I have to call BS. The map system is a dead giveaway. There's nothing WRONG with using elements and ideas from Super Metroid. It's one of the best games ever made of all time. Simon's Quest also has heritage in that style of game. Dat map system tho, come on. And the save game system.
Yep, totally disingenuous of him. It's like that Owl City guy saying he wasn't influenced by Postal Service.
Bloodstained: Curse of the Moon is so good!
@@MerkhVision I love the music
@@MerkhVision great game. Try specter of torment and the messenger if you haven't already.
Great video, as always. Surprised you didn't include one of your patent-pending dungeon diagrams, though. They're one of my favorite parts of this series!
thank you eyepatch wolf and lets fight a boss cast for showing me this fantastic video and channel
shield rod + alucard's shield = easymode
and completely skipped over the fact you can go through the castle again as richter
Crissaegrim with 2 rings of Varda. Super easy mode
@@josephthomson8569 Crissaegrim should have drained Mana or something, cause that thing ruins first playthroughs.
@@gu3z185 it's worth the grind imo
My thoughts exactly. The weapons you're picking up along the way ARE your difficulty selection.
yeah, the Upside Down Castle, while a cool idea back then, is showing it's age kinda badly now in this age where most people are exhausted by over-padded games. Valid for it's time, but not super great as is now.
Came here to say the same thing.
Never the less, the first time it happens and you see that everything in the caslte is working, is totally awesome.
Maybe if they designed it to work better in either orientation things would be better. I freakin' love the idea of it, but if one version is more fun to navigate than the other, it loses its purpose. It would be cool to use the concept but really make individual rooms feel completely different once flipped. The issue is bat form basically removes the need to platform/properly navigate anyway. It should be noted that I haven't played this game, so I assume some of what I'm saying is totally there. It's just based Mark's analysis and the footage shown, the attempt definitely feels just like a castle being flipped upsidedown rather than a well thought out, new castle.
@@reNINTENDO There wasn't space for a whole new castle on a PS1 CD but it was nice nonetheless. I typically moved through the rooms in mist form when traversing until magic ran out, then platformed a bit. It was also supposed to be a lot more challenging, with 1st-castle boss enemies as regular room enemies in many instances.
You'll only find it if you're engaged enough to explore the whole castle. It's a far cry from Ubisoft style checklists (though I enjoy those too).
It's really nice to hear you raise the issues you can run into with freeform layouts (not seeing locations you have to visit or not remembering where they were) after being quite critical of some of the more restrictive zelda titles. Very much looking forward to Metroid Prime, I adore that game. Great work as usual!
"...miserable little pile of keys." Well played! 💯But enough talk... Have at you!
imo the "loads of dead ends" and "useless items" cons are invalid,
As a new player you don't know the area has a dead end or that item is useless, you still get the illusion that your journey has meaning and you feel rewarded for exploration and that's something a lot of modern games fail to do, at the end of the day video games are all about illusion.
i think you have to play the game multiple times to lose this feeling and you saying "...i just wanted the whole thing to be e done by this point." kinda confirms it, i don't know if its just me but at that point in the game i felt the same thrill i had at the start of the first castle.
traversing through the inverted castle is awkward and pointlessly unfair at times, with random enemies and traps that can oneshot you easily, and you have to turn into a bat all the time, which takes a fuck-ton of time, either that or you use the gravity jump, which often doesn't work because the up+down method of using it is awful
also, illuding your players about the useless items they'll get after long exploring sessions is not good nor intuitive design
You know, game design includes game play too.
Haha I loved that you used black dude badass shaft for the pic when he talked instead of the shaft from castlevania. Nice touch!
Time to play SotN all over again. Oh, I didn't notice that there was a giant peeking eye at 3:04.