Offroad ABS
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
- A common piece of advice often given between riders is to always turn off their ABS when riding offroad. In this video I explore this advise that his heavily rooted in the world of ADV and dirt riders.
I use a 2021 Truimph Tiger 900 Rallye Pro and a 2017 BMW R1200GS as test mules comparing how their settings perform. This is not a bike vs bike test, this is about the electronics that exsist to help us as riders
www.BretTkacs.com
Great Test. We performed a similar ABS test in Sweden together with Sveriges MotorCyklister (Swedish motorcycle association) and the Swedish Transport Administration. We used two Tiger Rally Pro. Two different tires oem and Michelin Annakiee Wild. Two different riders one very experienced and one that was new to dirt roads. We measured speed, stopping distance and also G forces in the side directions thus to measure stability. We used GPS on the bike to measure. Long story short. No one could outbreak the ABS if something suddenly happened. The street ABS was more stable especially for the newbie. The biggest difference was the tires. Mir aggressive tires gave a small advantage on the gravel roads. Most probably the other way around on pavement. We were surprised that it was so little difference between street and Rally ABS on gravel roads.
You might try fine sand or sand on asphalt. especially the second is a challenge.
WOW, I worked at Ford Performance before my retirement. That level of detailed analysis of the braking capabilities of modern ABS was 1st class Engineering level stuff. Bret, I always learn from and enjoy the information you provide in your video's. Watching your video's makes me a better rider.
Anybody watching these videos. Just do as he says! Simple as that. I stopped lowering my tire pressure, and as he said I felt no difference for my amateur riding. And I had no worries when going from pavement to dirt and back. His video about body position on motorcycle is golden. The weightless rider technique saved me a couple of times in some sand parts and I got through them without putting my feet down. I was so proud.
Than you Bret!
Love your honest content Bret! A downhill descent test would have been nice as well
Thank you for continuing to break the many myths of the old school dirt riders, who don't trust modern technology. For the average ADV rider they are better off with ABS left on, but put into the correct mode (off road or on road). The old school dirt guys forget that most riders are coming to this genre of riding from street bikes and are not used to controlling slides. (and yes, the old ABS systems, like before 2010, they pretty much had to be turned off in the dirt, but times have changed!)
How about downhill on an appprozimate 45 degree decline on rocky, gravely surfaces?
@@scootergrant8683
but I think we're talking about beginner riders, which simply didn't try to go down a hill like that.
Last ride out I refused to ride down a very steep long pebble hill. My ABS does not shut off and I figured I’d freewheel down the hill and crash. My BMW riding partner convinced me the modern ABS won’t let me down. Suffice to say he was correct and the Vstrom rolled down those pebbles very controlled and with effective ABS braking.
The only time that ABS has made me feel really out of control was on a steep downhill descent. I literally almost couldn't get the bike to stop as the front & back pulsated while gravity kept me going down the steep incline. After that it's been rule of thumb for me to deactivate the ABS. Testing to show this would be nice.
Nice vid & thanks for sharing...
Agree. Same for me. On super steep loose gravel and dirt downhill, I really like to turn off my rear ABS. I am not a super skilled enduro rider though, so maybe it's a question of improving my skills. Not sure.
@@henriettethiim I think we have all seen the video of the unfortunate BMW rider careering down a steep rocky hill with pannier boxes disintegrating as he went.
Great info, nice to see the full numbers from a professional. Keep up the great videos, Bret!
There are lot of errors if this was a bike vs bike comparison but I was happy just to look for a trend.
I took the BMW US Rider Academy 1 day off road class a couple weeks ago. One of the evolutions was testing emergency off road braking from speed with and without ABS. It was very impressive how well the BMW advanced ABS was able to stop the bike in a loose dirt/gravel situation.
Needless to say, I was not surprised by your findings. Modern ABS on bikes is awesome and just works.
Great video as usual.
time and again I have heard people say they can stop quicker without abs. Some even demonstrate their skill. To me there are two issues,
first riding to a predetermined point and breaking isn't the same as a panic stop and under those circumstances I am sure the abs will have the advantage.
Second, abs isn't just about stopping quicker, it's about keeping control of the bike during the stop and abs does that.
Great demo 👍
Dave, do yourself one favour mate, make sure your rear ABS is off when in the dirt. It will kill you. To pull up in an emergency you may need to slide the bike sideways. Rear ABS increases your braking distance massively, you will end up in the trees if your push your speed up.
@@stonethecrows5334 Not an issue, I have no ABS on my bikes (CRF250L and 2011 Tiger 800xc) :oD
Thank you for debunking this myth, every time I go off-road with a group of riders we get into this discussion, and now I have the video to finish it right away! Greetings from Colombia and a Patreon supporter!
I was surprised how well the road ABS performed. The difference between road and off-road was very small
I have an older model '08 1200GSA & the ABS is absolutely rubbish on gravel, it will not slow the bike at all hence I always turn it off on loose surfaces.
Careful with that line of thought Javier :) 90% of the ABSs out there are really bad offroad. The new ones, as it seems, are much better (Thank you for the test @Bret!)
So the lesson here is that technology evolves and that with newest (and most expensive) bikes right now keeping the ABS on isnt such a mistake as it used to be.
So please dont go tell someone with a 10 year old bike that he should keep the ABS on offroad...unless you dont like him :p
@@OFFroadOFFcourse True, try this on an old 990 Adventure with ABS on and you will kill the person holding the speed cam... It's a really good bike, but the ABS on that one is garbage.
@@OFFroadOFFcourse :)
Wow. Not what I expected. I ride a 2016 GS with Enduro Pro dongle. My butt tells me I have more control using manual modulation of brakes versus ABS. I have experienced ABS runaway on BMW 800 GSAs on baby head descents where the ABS simply becomes confused and lets gravity take over. Nice to see such a thorough review. I will definitely take my GS out and focus on some ad lib testing of my own to try this out. I recently started using my electronic downshifting on the GS and have really come to enjoy its precision in throttle matching into corners. It’s works very well. Us old dogs are hard to retrain. Thx for great video.
Thank you for this video, as a new rider I recently bought my second bike, a 2021 G310 GS, which no longer has the disable ABS button, this has had me a little concerned when riding it off road. This video has now eased my mind some, and given me the confidence to practice off road stopping a bit harder with it. Love the channel, cheers.
Hey, I recently bought G310GS and a little concerned on downhill movement...could you share your experience on it... I'm a new rider and mainly does it solo
@@yourichayan2843 The ABS took a little while to get use to off road, but I quite like it now. Just completed the GS Safari on the 310 and it did a great job all round, have uploaded the first of five Safari videos on my channel if your interested. Will be some steep decents in the coming videos.
I largely agree with this but on my 2016 Husqvarna 701 a snotty muddy down hill is definitely better with the ABS turned off. Everywhere else the ABS is better on. The ABS on the 701 will just let go on a snotty downhill and bite again when it feels like it. It makes for a lively ride with me pitching my bike up banks to lose speed. Maybe I am a bit of a jessie on the down hills, I sure as hell am not quickon a muddy descent. If I forget to turn the ABS off, keeping the front brake on and releasing it partially to keep the forks compressed will work in all but the muddiest of conditions but here in the Chiltern Hills of southern England, wet chalk is an extremely treacherous surface. When I have ridden on anything more hard pack or stony then the ABS is a positive advantage. Thanks for the analysis Brett. I also have the Tiger Rally Pro 900 on those, ahem, adventure tyres. it certainly is an adventure riding on anything slimey on those tyres. A top tip. If riding in mud on the OE "adventure" tyres, wear brown trousers. As soon as my road tyres are worn, something a lot nobbier is going on.
YES! This is THE BEST video I have seen on this subject! With your background/training/experience there can be NO DOUBT as to how incorrect this myth of ABS off road use is. As you covered the upgrades in ABS through the years and then proved its overall use on/off road.. You do not HAVE to turn it off. You prove it out. My bike has great ABS, a couple times I popped the fuse to shut it off and that just got to be a pain to do SO I just explored the ABS's little nuances in different terrain to know it and I just run with it on. Again, another great video of skill, experience and knowledge backed up and with science and technology. That all said, say this STILL in some ADV communities and there will be people out there with pitchforks and torches! Please keep these videos coming. As always, take care and be safe in your travels my friend.
Thanks Bret. Excellent information. Your courses in-person and videos are much appreciated... and have helped many adventures stay upright. Or making the "dirt naps" less frequent and risky. Thanks again.
Great info. I've always left the abs on the rear of my tiger 800 on unless I'm on a trail that's more technical than hard pack/gravel. I'm constantly swapping between pavement and gravel in deer country so I like to keep that abs on as often as possible. Thanks Bret.
Same bike & I do the same.
I used to be able to out brake abs pretty easily. (I actually practice hard braking)
Not these days though. The modern stuff out brakes me.
Those of us with older-than-modern ABS may still wish we could be in the shut-it-off category. Haven't done enough comparative testing on my 2021 Tenere 700 to comment. However, my 2012 Super Tenere without ABS defeat has given me more than a few "pucker" moments when the ABS let off the brakes. I attended a Rawhyde Offroad training course a few years ago at Overland Expo West on my S-10. In the braking training portion of the course, they insisted that I disable my ABS, (an option that bike doesn't support) and use my rear brake only. I failed every stop with ABS rear brake only. I made every stop with ABS front/rear brakes, but the instructor saw that I was using my front brake and admonished me to not do that because I would fall over. I didn't fall over
Instructor telling to not use the front brake!?!?! Yikes...
Hey Bret! Fabio from Brazil! I always watch your tutorial videos ! They're great !!!
I think that the benefits of the ABS are the greater the more speed you have. It's pretty easy to be brave with the front break under 30mph but at 50mph the rider isn't usually as brave as the computer :D Or that's my own experience from riding 1290 superduke on dirt roads with street tires and street abs.
"1290 superduke on dirt roads with street tires and street abs" Haha best combo!
You took a lot of effort to debunk this myth. Thank you & cheers to that. Also a big shoutout to your friends who helped with this stuff.
Christina is a trooper
Thanks for answering the question I’ve had regarding ABS off-road. It’ll stay on from now on when I go off-road.
Wow. That was a lot of numbers. I still feel more comfortable with front ABS on and rear off. I like to slide the bike sideways with the rear wheel locked from time to time even if it's just for fun. Good info though.
Great timing Bret! Was out on my Tiger today, had to emergency brake on a short stretch of gravel - immediately became aware that ‘road’ settings are not ideal in that situation, your video confirms this with the numbers 👍
An excellent video, keep up the good educational work. I've a 2021 CRF300Rally equipped with ABS which allows me to turn off the rear ONLY. Several RUclipsrs have taken the expense and trouble to remove the ABS in toto as they believe that it interferes with their ability to brake under control; however, even though a locked rear can be useful, I've yet to find a time in many years of trail riding when a locked front wheel has actually made things better. In my experience a locked front wheel is usually the thing that happens just before the wheel tucks and I drop it! I've had a couple of scenarios on the CRF where I would have laid down my old XR400R but a handful of front brake has stopped me AND left me upright - what's not to like. I've now even taken to leaving the rear ABS on as that is not as intrusive as I first thought and even in the quagmire that is currently Salisbury Plain it does not prevent me from getting the most out of my bike.
Comment for the YT algorithm vs. Bret. Enjoyed the testing and results, BTW.
Good video and tests! In the tested environments I think the best advice is to practice with and trust the enduro computer settings.
I would be curious to see a downhill test, since that is the scariest. Something steep enough to accellerate the bike downhill with a locked rear, so that front braking is critical to success. This is the only time/circumstance where I was genuinely scared for my survival on an ADV bike.
I think that will be a video to make in the future
@@BretTkacs The first time I was really tested in my ability to brake a big ADV bike on a loose downhill was at the Steens Range in Eastern Oregon. I had just bought my 1200GS Rallye and was coming down a brutally steep and long loose gravel/dirt jeep road. Thankfully I had watched Bretts video of him demonstrating front braking on his T-7. Prior to that video I didn't realize how important front brake is for descending on dirt/gravel. I made it down that hill without ever getting out of control or dropping the bike...that never would have happened if i hadn't watched that video the week before.
@@superflycatchermtb I love reading stories like this, thanks for sharing
Very comprehensive, thanks! You saved a lot of people the time & risk of trying to figure this out by trial and error on tough terrain.
Thanks for making this video. This is definitely a point which is discussed almost in every off road riding groups.
Nice video! You make the point that time and tech marches on. Yesterday’s limitations are today’s non-problem
Great video and thanks Bret! Here my two cents: I have two 2021 bikes, but very different when it comes to breaking off-road: with my BMW F750 GS I feel confident leaving it on, actually I like it better, on the contrary with my Yamaha T7 if I leave it on is quite scary as it feels very raw and super intrusive, hence for the T7 I make sure I turn it off every single time while riding off-road.
totally agree with you on the T7.
On the T7 yamaha, really skipped it on the electronics creating a very analogical bike, does not surprise the abs being enough to just meet the legal requirements where mandatory Whether is a good or bad idea I believe it really depends on how you wanna use it.
I wish they'd put Enduro ABS on the T7, it's the only thing keeping me from getting one. And the fact that they're impossible to find!
Same. My T7's ABS struggles in lose gravel. It feels like it's fighting me, not helping me.
So it would still be better to turn off ABS on dirt for cheaper bikes that don't have dedicated offroad ABS. I'm thinking T7 or even tall semi-ADVs like the CB500X or Tiger Sport 660.
Love this video. It really shows where the companies are going with their R&D.
Another great video Bret. Lots of old fossils giving bad advice on forums based on how ABS is totally the reason they crashed 30 years ago. Nice to see some real testing and numbers to replace the anecdata
Another GREAT vid. I'm so glad to see this /specifically because I was wondering if I was wacky. Apparently I'm not. My Husaberg FE390 (now street legal) has zero electronics, of course. However, my 2017 Vstrom 650XT and my 2018 Kawasaki Versys x300 have surprisingly good ABS (neither is switchable and both have only one ABS mode). That said, I have been VERY pleased with the ABS off-road. I live 5 miles from pavement in any direction, so every ride has gravel (good county road, but loose gravel over hard mag chloride base, a fair amount of washboard). The ABS on pavement is VERY good on both and it surprisingly good off road. I have NEVER felt like I would skid into anything. (I have NOT checked either on deep river rock like you did.) Your vid confirms my "seat of the pants" conclusions that I don't need to "pull the ABS fuse" off road. Keep up your excellent work / Thanks!!!
Funny I should fall on this video and your comment. I just came back from a ride on my Versys x300 and was surprised by a sharp corner with freshly grated sand mixed in with some loose gravel. I grabbed a handful of brake and the bike stopped surprisingly well. I was sure I was landed in the field. It's been saving my ass on many occasions. I don't even consider installing a switch like many have suggested.
@@mimi1girl2dempsey3 Hi D Doiron! I went from a KLR250 (the little one) to a Husaberg FE390 (neither with ABS) and then to my X300 (one of 3 now in the garage). About a week after getting the X300 I decided to "test" the ABS on pavement. WOW! nealy threw me over the bars. I CANNOT (as Bret pointed out) stop faster that the ABS on the 2018 X300 or my latest purchase, the 2017 Vstorm 650XT. As I pointed out, I ride 5 miles to hit pavement and I am totally spoiled to ABS. I REALLY have to take great care nowadays on the Husaberg... aggressive bakes on both ends, but the front takes 1 finger finesse! Great to hear from another satisfied X300 owner. Might be the best light ADV and best commuter on the market! - Ray
@@GeezerWheels Hi Ray, I saw a youtube review on the Tenere 700 from BeRad and I swear he's describing the x300. Same suspension mods needed on both bikes (mine are arriving in a few weeks). It's the best "go anywhere I want to go" bike I've owned. Cancelling the ABS with center stand is easy to do for tighter stuff if needed.Glad you like it too.
Just as an aside : half tennis balls for practice cones? What a great idea! Low profile, grippy and soft, I'm gonna get me some 😄👌🏻
Wow great info thanks!!! My friend and I just had this discussion recently. We ride completely on the street but like many we ride adventure bikes using them for sport touring with sport touring tires. Coming back from Montana recently, a 5 mile stretch of roadway was completely torn up in Idaho for road construction. The road was all dirt with deep 3 inch pockets of gravel. Many bikers got caught out on this section of road. It was rather vertical with turns etc...we all left our ABS on rather than put the bikes in Enduro mode or turn the abs off...our group made it fine, others weren't as lucky. Looks like leaving the street ABS on was the correct choice...thanks for an excellent training video
I think if all you are doing is trail riding then ABS on is a good choice. However, if you are trail bashing and doing more aggressive or more technical riding ABS can definitely get in the way just like some of the anti-spin and wheelie features. Most riders would benefit from leaving it on, some riders in specific settings would want to be able to turn it off. That's how I like to frame it. (I leave mine on about 90% of the time.)
Well, I'm also guilty of riding my 2021 GSA in street mode off-road because I forget to change it. lol
It's the downhills that are the problem. I leave my ABS on most of the time off-road, but if I don't switch it off for muddy descents I may as well just save time & throw the bike down the hill. I don't know whether you'd class that as "modern ABS" though - it's a 2012 GS so hasn't got an Enduro mode.
9 year old abs, I would not call it modern, is likely not as bad as the very first ones, but would not compare it with new ones especially those supported by a 6 axis IMU
"Save time and throw it down the hill." Hilarious
I remember on my 2017 BMW RnineT coming down a steep dirt hill when I forgot to turn off abs. That was a wild ride! Felt like I had no brakes.
@@TheEasyrider1200 ehm what were you doing offroad, I
suppose with road tyres, on a street bike, going downhill with abs on? 😳😅
@@scldma114 Metzler KarooIIIs, pretty knobbly. Never let crappy road tires get in the way of acting crazy off-road!
it depends on what tires you have, the one on the front matters the most, it also depends on the surface you're driving on. most of the time I go with active abs, even on hard descents with wet and soft ground, but I have an aggressive front tire (tkc 80, battlax ax41, karoo4). on the gravel the ABS does not cope. I prefer to simulate the abs manually. with time you will gain experience and decide according to your needs, not according to the experiments of others. thank you! I love what you do! keep it like this!
If you have problems with abs and you are already on downhill, stop the engine, put the ignition key to zero, gearbox in speed 1, use the clutch and simulate manually front brake to work like an custom abs
Bret, you just made me a much safer rider. I will be more confident in using my dual wheel ABS brakes on my Honda PCX-160 scooter. It has a parking brake locking lever that locks the left brake lever.
I now understand how to use my Honda ADV-150 brakes. It has ABS on the front brake which is operated by the right hand, and the rear brake operated by the left hand does not have ABS. It does not have a parking brake locking lever. I live in Thailand and cannot get this kind of information in English. A velcro ribbon applied tightly to either brake lever serves as a parking brake. Very primitive.
In my opinion the PCX braking design is a better system for most people, that the ADV.
Thanks Bret
Wow! That took a LONG time to say turning abs off with a modern motorcycle when riding off road was a busted myth!
Thanks for letting us know.
Yes... But if I don't show the process nah sayers will fill the comments
Probably so.
I was riding down steep narrow loose rock trails on my 790 Adventure in off-road mode last Sunday, and was amazed at the braking control that I had with the front brake. The other variable that comes into play though on that kind of surface is suspension - the more your tire can maintain contact, the better. I do turn my damping down a little for that kind of riding - I’m willing to have a little more bounce for more accurate tracking… but I do mean turn it down a little.
Another great and unbiased presentation. ...where I live in Canada, our local government courses are still telling their students that bikes stop in shorter distances than cars 🤦♂.
That said, when I drive off road I often want to use my rear tire for sliding into a turn - abs has to be off for that. Will need abs that can read my mind to switch between stopping and sliding on purpose.
thanks a lot for this, gives me a great deal more confidence when I take my GT Pro off road for the 1st time knowing it doesn't really matter that I can't turn off my abs.
Solid info. If I ever get a bike modern enough that it has ABS I'll keep it in mind.
Yeah the main concerns that arise in my mind about off-pavement braking (in context of ABS) is the downhill stop and the slick surface stop. Downhill obviously the goal is to actually stop and not have the computer interrupting that creating an out of control movement. The slick surface stop involves piling up material in front of tires which creates additional drag and may (or may not) change the outcome compared to the ABS simply allowing material to continually roll beneath the wheels out of the way.
All those situations yes abs on. Down hill trail with my F800GSA, no thanks
This didn't have a big of a gap between street and off-road as I would have thought.
@@BretTkacs Enjoyed your scientific approach to the tests that were done. I guess I might be simply reflecting some of the strongest concerns/opinions that people tend to avoid the technology for, which isn't fair, as you have capably demonstrated.
@@exothermal.sprocket I figure if this one is popular or my Patreon supports have a high request I will do more to see how things perform in more challenging environments. Maybe even use students to find an average rider number
@@BretTkacs Excellent suggestions. I do enjoy your content and thoughtfulness.
Great video. Been following you for a while now. I just wish you could come down to Australia to do some courses. Would be thrilled to participate. Take care and thank you for your very educational videos.
When the world learns to live with COVID Australia will be on my list
Amen! Would love to see Bret here too. 😉
@@bryan3550 well we might get lucky next year 😊😊
Enduro ABS give you ability to slide rear, that's about it. this is useful not for braking, but for other things :)
Great video Bret! I have been following along for quite a while now and was subscribed to mototrek when you were over there. Really like all the quality info you put into your content. Keep up the great work! I am riding a 2021 KTM 890 adventure R and I never fully turn the ABS off however I do always switch it to off road mode (rally mode is always on). I find it to be much better and it allows me to skid that back tire if I want.
The situation most difficult for ABS is a deep gravel, certain snow, basically anything you can stop faster by locking up and creating a wedge and plow. The kind of thing where the tire will be buried at the end.
Subaru Australia used to have to alter the ABS settings for our country to get this bow wave digging to occur.
Thank you, Bret! I will try to trust my ABS on my new 2021 BMW F850GSA BumbleBee. I took it to Mt. Madonna this weekend (west of Gilroy, CA) and rode a very short section of dirt. I stopped short at a steeper downhill section due to rider fatigue. Looking forward to an off-road refresher class on this new bike. And more of your videos!
Ride on.😃👍🏻🏍
Nice work Bret, that was what I wanted to hear. A Gold Medal to Christine for putting up with it..! 😘
Thanks Bret. That was a real eye opener, I've always turned mind off when on gravel/mud. I have a have 1200 gs 2007, I run 50/50 tyres. I'll be trying out the ABS and see how a bike of my year copes.
I would love to see a video on mud , I look forward to it.
Keep up the good work and thanks. Safe riding.
As someone previously mentioned, I would be awesome to see more bike comparison. I understand that that's a lot of work to make such a video, so just a spreadsheet would be enough. At least for the new bikes: KTM 790/890, T7, CRF300, Africa twin, and some other new models. This data can later be used in bike reviews and help people to choose a new bike. Like why would I spend more money on a ktm or bmw instead of T7 if I'm a beginner off-road rider, I don't need more power or a more expensive suspension, but when I see that the abs can increase my safety and help me even on off-road - that's a big selling point for me. I understand that ABS isn't a substitute for bad skills and you should always invest in some training, this information just gives the consumer a larger perspective. Also, I recently bought a T7 and now I'm interested to see how big of a difference it is compared to other bikes. A giant thanks to Bret, I always learn from and enjoy the information you provide.
Great video Bret - good to see some numbers to backup the claims
Another great video and help rethink old ideas we all just stick with blindly.
Thanks for all the great work you do.
Good video yet again. I’d be interested in downhill performance. Certainly modern abs for off-road is great for cornering safety as well as traction control.
Thought exactly so. Thanks for thus interesting comparison. I'll leave my front ABS on.
Great video, thanks you! I have a contrary experience that has soured me to ABS off road, but you’ve inspired me to have another go at it.
I find that the ABS doesn’t slow me in a way that I find predictable. I had a terrifying incident on a loose, sandy mountain pass in Colorado. My bike is one of the ones that resets to road mode when you turn it off, which is exactly what happened when I stopped at the top of a hill to get my bearings. When I started down it was in street mode, and I was trying to to drag the rear to slow the bike but the ABS wasn’t having it. I found myself picking up way too much speed and had to shut off the bike to drag the rear and stop. This happened twice…what can I say, I’m a slow learner.
I’m willing to believe this was human error. Maybe I was modulating the brakes and confusing the ABS…I was too busy soiling myself to take notes. I will to try to recreate the experience and put some blind faith into the ABS. Wish me luck!
What about front brake? 🤔
Your front brake is what stops you not the rear. The only reason to use rear brake is for rear end directional control. You need to learn and feel comfortable using your front brake in the dirt because its the only way you will stop.
@@martyllanos73 Agreed, but the problem was that the front brake wasn't actually braking, because the ABS kept intervening. I needed the rear drag to arrest the freefall. I'm very comfortable with my front brake...when its working :)
My first bike I bought with ABS was a T7 9 months ago, and a have to admit after 40+ years of riding both off road and on I don’t think I have ever found the need for ABS, so the T7 gets the ABS turned off most of the time and always in the dirt.
So conclusion being, ride to the conditions and use your eyes, they put ABS on cars because most drivers are off with the fairies and not paying attention so everything becomes an emergency.
I let a country boy use my keep Cherokee sport 97 to make a run up a mountain to bring bag some of Humbolts finest to us in 2004. He had never used a vehicle with abs. As he rounded a curve a little fast he brakes and thought the “brakes where giving out” so used the wall of the mountain to stop the machine. There wasn’t much damage but scratches. I remember the first time and initiated for me on a bike. I was going through a puddle about 4 inch deep 8 feet long. I would have been down if the abs wasn’t there. That was a test ride on what ended up being my first BMW in a stream of many. BMW f650gs 2005. It was an amazing motorcycle. I went to school with it MMI Phoenix. I rode my wife and I through Cali for our honeymoon. I love abs.
Everyone loves to talk about all the fancy power modes and computer controlled features their bikes have and how amazing their engines are with the second computer (power commander) they installed to make it even better……but for some reason some people suddenly hate computers when the brakes are involved. Suddenly those fancy computers couldn’t possibly do what the rider can do. ABS works…..stop turning it off.
🤣🤣🤣
You have given me a great idea - I'm going to tell people my Triumph has a Brake Commander on it.
@@flyovercounty1427 🤣
@@flyovercounty1427 I love that idea! I’m doing that too. ABS just needs a better marketing campaign.
Ok I'll admit I'm confused. I have never heard of needing to turn your ABS off while off-road as a matter of braking distance but as a matter of braking while descending. It seems like you did a whole bunch of testing to "debunk a myth" which wasn't even an issue to begin with. Obviously braking distances while off road are longer due to less traction, but ABS or not the overall braking distance is roughly similar. Of course off road ABS systems are better for braking performance while off road, but again the issue with ABS while in the dirt is braking while descending. That is the situation which will give you a "runaway" bike, not stopping on flat ground.
Having experienced a runaway while off road I'll stick with disabling ABS on my bike unless I'm riding something with an off road ABS system.
Hmmm kinda what he said. It wasn’t in regard to descending at all.
@@valescobar5987 except all of his testing was braking distance. Not braking on downhills.
Awesome and most accurate! Thank you for all you do!
Thank you so much for bothering and doing the testing, will share with friends to finish the myth👍👍👍
Ah Ha, did anyone catch the two frames that Bret showed with his 🧢 hat removed? It took me quite a few attempts at capturing the still frame on screen. The man has hair Lol 😂. I am pretty sure that those two glimpses without the hat were quick and purposeful for all of us that have made comments in his recent videos ✌🏾 Thanks for clearing up the mystery Bret. I am sure that I will sleep peacefully tonight knowing that you are not Slick Watts 😆 Just messing with you man ✌🏾Love your show 👍🏾
That wasn't an accident 🤣
But so many variables in offroad riding which is more than just stopping hard in a straight line. For example, I'll ride with my abs off on my 790 adv r on more technical trails especially downhill as the front tyre can plough gravel or dirt in front of it allowing me to stop if I need to rather than have abs kick in and I continue downhill somewhat out of control. Good vid 👍🏼
Hi Brett. A similar video on the use of traction control would be good.
I learned this when I demoed the pan America off road… modern abs is incredibly good. My 2010 gs I have to turn the abs off off road
Bret is the greatest teacher out there.
Good research. I did a lot of testing of abs equipped vehicles in the early 90's. I tested commercial trucks,cars and motorcycles. Even then it was clear that abs was superior to the skills of the majority of people. Those early systems were far from perfect,especially on loose surfaces.
I have a 2020 CB500X and usually run the TKC 80’s. I am not, or perhaps, do not need to be a fast rider so stopping is not an issue for me. My issue is steeper downhills on loose rock, sand or gravel, where the pulsating rear wheel (ABS on) is very unnerving. My bike does not have an ABS switch, it is just on all the time. Previous models had aftermarket switches to disable the ABS.
I believe my ideal bike would have front ABS and no ABS on the rear and I think we will see more bikes in the future with this option.
I have seen 3 solutions to my issue that involve switches that disable the fuse for the ABS. In July of 2022, on some steep down hill loose surface switchbacks I removed my seat, pulled the ABS fuse, put the fuse in my riding pants pocket, replaced the seat and rode down. That fuse is still in my pocket and works well for my type of riding. If I were to ride on wet asphalt at relatively high speeds to get somewhere I would put the fuse in.
Most modern bikes made for actual ADV riding can turn off the rear ABS. Many also have off-road ABS settings that keep the rear ABS mapped for limited traction
Every time, you teach me how to be better - thank you.
Great work Bret! Love these kind of tests!
Installing ABS on dirt bikes and ADV bikes is unnecessary and at times dangerous IMO. My 500exc had no ABS which is the way it should be, and my 2 KTM 690’s had ABS installed and I removed both of their entire systems and installed pre ABS 690 components. Now I’m confident with braking on those bikes in any conditions. Most of my riding is off road in varying terrain and conditions. Even on MX tracks and steep terrain Hare Scrambles, I found ABS to be detrimental at best and dangerous at worst at least with these bikes and how and where I ride. Dongles or removing power relays make ABS equipped bikes unpredictable and usually make braking worse IMO.
Now my 990 still has its ABS and I like it on that bike as I don’t ride it where and how I do my smaller bikes and agree with your assessment when it comes to to the big heavy bikes. I don’t have the skills that you do with the big bikes on the tougher off road tracks and trails and don’t have the confidence to push my 990 into the places half as difficult that I do on my lightweight bikes. I wished I did and could take some skill classes from you! I end up thinking too much about how big, wide and heavy it is, so I find myself looking 2’ in front of me most of the time and what’s going to hurt me when I dump it. So I don’t enjoy going riding on it, unless it’s on good dirt roads and trails. You make it look easy! On my lightweight bikes, it’s a whole different story! Grip it and rip it always looking far ahead of where I’m at picking one or two of multiple line options ahead. Here in AK terrain changes very quickly from mud holes to to steep rocky climbs and descents to boggy tundra and I’ve learned to be way ahead of it at speed. Translated well in North Africa to Senegal on my 690 RR. Wouldn’t of even considered doing that ride on a big bike like my 990! But I want to learn to ride the 990 like it’s intended for! You make great videos and I enjoy watching them hoping to pick up something now and then!
Descending and downhill are the big challenges. Going down a gravel road with ABS , and the bike gets faster and faster, while it doesn’t lock with the road? That’s what I would be interested in. When off-road and not knowing what’s next in front of me, I rather have my ABS off.
Exactly, i was wondering when Bret was going to talk about that. Steep nasty 1" gravel downhills, I want to have the choice whether I lock the back wheel or not.
All is advice is centered around a riding weight of 800 pounds (large bike and rider with gear).
All his testing is in a straight line. Which doesn't replicate real off road situations.
Braking with a slide can stop you under control with ABS off.
Thanks for asking the question, and supplying an answer.
ABS and traction control have saved my ass many times!! They make an average rider look good. I won’t go back when off road.
Having ridden the new Pan America with the Bosche Gen 9 ABS... No need to switch it off anymore. But on older bikes, yeah, you had to.
Great video thanks for doing it an shared, I really enjoyed
Thanks Bret...always good stuff. As to a look at more technical riding (rocky down hills, mud, single track, etc) if you are taking votes, it would certainly be informative. Always been a fan of front on, rear off on my 10 year old bike so getting a look at modern ABS systems in those conditions would be interesting. Appreciate your efforts.
That is on the list now
I’ve got a 2014 CB500x. With ABS…. Primitive ABS system. Without an ABS switch (which I’ve added) off road on a slippery surface (down hill for gravel for example) I’m just along for the ride. The system clicks and whirs…but won’t stop the bike. I’ve done the BMW advanced ADV 2 day course and “enduro pro” on 850 GS and 1250 GS which was an entire different animal. The type of ABS matters for sure. They’re not all created equal. Great video.
TYVM for this cautionary qualifying info wrt the CB500X. As you can see from my handle, I have one too which I think is late 2013 year of manufacture. The CB500X was/is marketed as an 'adventure STYLED' bike. Which is to say it was designed to handle the backblocks-boondocks pavement of the concrete jungle of Bangkok, rather than the backblocks-boondocks deer trails west of Bend Oregon, or the 'roo tracks west of Birdsville Queensland.
Sure, one can turn the CB500X's ADV 'Show' into real 'Go' with quite affordable (compared to capital outlay of KTM or BMW) Rally Raid after-market wheels+suspension+rock-guard fruit. But thank you for indicating that the best aftermarket upgrade one can do to the CB500X's ABS for serious trail use, is in fact, a Disable Switch, in spite of the hugely enlightening work and results of Brett's vidclip here.
@@rhonda-my_honda_cb500x3 RR sells one for $34 US
Awesome video! However, although you alluded to it a couple times, you were perhaps too humble to outright say you're a VERY, VERY good rider/breaker. WAY better than the average, or new(me), rider. I think it would have been more valuable to also do the test with one of your students that is a more average or beginner rider. Then I think we would have seen the more realistic massive advantages to ABS, even off road. As well as how much more controlled the stops are. I'd be willing to bet a novice would have come close to dumping their bike more without the ABS as well. Thanks again!
I hope to do this at some of the training camps next year.
I'm willing to bet a novice would have almost certainly dumped their bike at least once without ABS.
@@CharlesA_337 agreed
@@BretTkacs Just a bit of the psychology of a novice(at least me): My "experience" is from mountain biking so I'm used to emergency braking with right hand lever first(rear brake), then carefully easing into the left hand lever(front brake). Anchoring and stabilizing the rear end while preloading and preparing for the more effective front brake. Immediately grabbing a ton, or "too" much right lever doesn't really matter usually. Sure, when I'm practicing motorcycle braking I have the different controls sequence correct in my head. But when I'm in an unexpected "oh crap" situation I revert to my old mountain bike breaking mentality, HAMMERING on the front break, then easing on the clutch(at least I don't stall the bike too often haha) Needless to say ABS has saved my bacon countless times!
My old 07 BMW G650x Challenge with the ABS on just would not stop on gravel. It caught me out a few times.
Great info! Thank you for sharing and your time.
Thanks Brett great video. I must say I love Enduro mode on my 2017 GSA when I'm offroad. Feels really planted.
I'm on board with the off road ABS and really would go for it.
I would like to see the loose gravel steep down hill stop, where part of the stop method is working the rear brake with a combination slide/release using the build up of a small gravel berm over and over, as a part of the slowing process being the resistance as the wheel has to roll over the build up of gravel.
This really is the nightmare situation. Front braking would be sketchy at best, but with ABS could contribute a lot more. If full ABS was used, the rear the brake would possibly be releasing too much, rendering it ineffective. That would be one interesting test and demo to see how the braking techniques and ABS would work together.
I believe from what I saw here, you would use the off road ABS and possibly the same slide release with the rear brake as we do, slide/roll/slide/roll reducing speed. It isn't a panic stop, rather just a very tough situation, ever with a fair amount of off road and trials experience. I'd really like to see what it would be to have the ABS off vs off road ABS on. Seems to me the latter would be superior to the former, but I don't have the bike to try it. My experience in the situation has been on both a KLX650 and 250 no ABS.
We have several places where this is the method needed. In one of them you will end up out in the road if you screw up. The speed in the decent is like 10 mph or less, yet it is still difficult It is the steep incline and loose large gravel.
Nice tests! But i think is better to particularise in moto models tested or abs models and generations. What is modern? I would encourage you to test a very modern popular off road bike such as Tenere 700. I bet conclusion won't be the same off road, at least by my experience. Thanks and keep going!
If you accidently hit your tennis ball into Bret Tkacs yard......it's gone kids
Great video Bret, thanks!., very cool that river bed stone breaking skills!, I would like to see a comparison between the three ABS modes on the KTM's (road, offroad and off) on steep downhill offroad (loose terrain).
That's a good idea... Maybe Paul would be up to a new video with me.
@@BretTkacs Oh yes!...you both make a good team!
If you are riding steep downhills or slick rock I guarantee if you leave your ABS on you will beat your buddies to the bottom.
Well Let's post the snot out of your comment/vote it up ..whatever so Bret can see and hopefully encourage him enough to do a " i'll prove it or disprove it" video. *shrugs*
Legit..I'd like to see either result myself also
Thank you Sir! I was about to ask you about this, merci from Montreal!
Love the scientific way you did this tests and the outcome of the tests may surprise many. Let us hope that the ABSs of modern bikes in general behave like you measured. But how do we know. The two bikes you measured has quite sophisticated ABSs.
I can assure the V-strom does not do so well. I consider "modern" as 5 yrs or less. 2016 was the last really big leap in ABS tech
My T7 has off-road mode and street abs, not sure if it means no abs at all in off-road, but going downhill I had the abs on because I forgot to put it in off-road mode and it was scary because it would not bite and I had no confidence slowing down. So I definitely try harder to remember to switch it to off-road but it is annoying sometimes
Downhill loose surface is different.
I dont fully agrree with the findings as it was done on a normal gravel road in a straight line. Throw in a couple of tight sharp sandy corners and I can assure you that ABS will become a serious problem..UP TO A POINT. ABS for the front is a total MUST..that is undisputable but far safer OFF for the rear. Example..you are approaching a corner and discover you a bit too hot and the wrong line. The only way to get the back out is to lock up the rear brake..in this way you can slide the rear and straightened the bike. This you cannot do with rear abs on and you will no doubt end up in a ditch or the bushes or whatever is lurking there. Abs for the front is a dream but you need to learn how to control it. It does allow you more entry speed as one can now use your front brake in a corner which one never does . ( im taking about off road conditions) It is all very well to do these fancy tests with copius amount of data but dont forget that these tests are done under planned situations. a Far cry from reality when you riding and a situation arises.
Thanks Brat!
I was wondering about the same question for a while now.
Manufacturers put money in development of a system we turn off, just because we doubt its performance? All the while we know that streetperformance of ABS is hard to beat by a normal trained rider.
For me personally it boils down to safety in >emergency< situations. Abs works - every time - all the time - even off the pavement. Everything else is personal taste.
Thanks again!
Sorry, BrEt… 🙈
Good test.Better info than just "What we Assume".Thanks.