There is one thing about this video I take very seriously, and that is the thumbnail. Question my scholarship all you want, but you cannot deny that my thumbnail carries scholarly gravitas. ALSO: I respond to some criticism here: ruclips.net/user/postUgkx1VMlzlE9wnLYdZpeuifApMjlrJmEVUsZ
Here here. Seeing the thumbnail made me quiet myself and steel my nerves before clicking the video, seeing how deeply weighty the matter would be. (In all reality though, so excited to see your scholarly work! Watching right now!)
This was beautiful. I believe your intellect is a gift from God. Thank you for all of your work. I will be looking into purchasing copies of your works. May God bless your soul, my brother in Christ. 🩷
As a Catholic considering Protestantism for several years now, this video was very important for me. Thank you Gavin. I've been doing my best building a defensive case for my Catholic beliefs, but more and more I feel like some of Catholic doctrines are impossible to properly defend, it boils down to appeal to authority of Pope in so many issues... Veneration of images was ALWAYS a hard pill to swallow for me too. I remember being on a Retreat Mass where all participants were asked to venerate an Icon of Mary. Not even Mary herself, but very specifically, her icon, and the prayer that followed was also, very specifically, addressing and asking THE HOLY ICON to answer the prayers. I can not describe how haunting and disturbing was this event for me. I wasn't educated enough to know why what was going on was wrong, but I knew it, I felt it in my heart, in my very soul. I was watching lots of both Catholic and Protestant Apologists on this and other topics that were concerning to me for years, and your channel has been, hands down, the best content for this purpose I've ever seen. Please keep answering these hard questions Gavin. You have no idea how hard it is for us Catholics to find a way out, even if we feel in our gut that we should. These videos are very helpful.
I very nearly decided to become Catholic not long ago. I'm massively drawn towards the emphasis on tradition, high-church liturgy, and having a simple way to settle disputes of doctrine. What stopped me was that I couldn't get the idea out of my head, feelings, conscience, whatever one wants to call it, that Christ almost certainly would not want people anathematized and, so, removed from the Church for merely being unable to believe in, say, Mary's perpetual virginity, her assumption, or even her being immaculately conceived. There were a few other issues, but this, I think, was the biggest. How can it be Christ's Church, His body, if man can remove members from it erroneously, especially if such tradition is as authoritative as scripture?
@@Real_LiamOBryan have you ever considered other high church contexts with a structure of authority for setting disputes, but more inclusive and open? Like Anglicans or high Methodist or others? As a Catholic, by far the most powerful asset of protestantism is the freedom of choice. Catholics have no say about anything as far as their fate is concerned. We have to do and believe everything the magisterium teaches. I'm technically not even Catholic anymore for even having the doubts that I have. It's strict to the point of absurdity. It's not the "freedom in Christ" that Jesus promised us for sure.
@@mitromney Yes, I have. My doctrinal beliefs align very closely with conservative sorts of Methodism, and even fairly closely with conservative sorts of Anglicanism. I'm definitely not Lutheran in my beliefs. Still, being relatively close to Catholicism on some doctrines I don't feel 100% Protestant, and definitely not 100% Catholic. I believe that prayer to the saints is acceptable, that the Bishop of Rome should have a primacy of honor, that Sola Scriptura is either false or incomplete, that the dulia/latria distinction is true and useful and, therefore, that worshipping others (such as saints) is acceptable, that there is great importance--necessity even--in unity, that tradition is really important, etc. This is mostly academic for me, unless I choose Catholicism (which seems unlikely to me) or Methodism, because I only have two churches within reasonable travel distance from me, Catholic and low-church Wesleyan (which is a type of Methodist). By the way, what are your thoughts on whether Jesus would want disbelievers in Marian dogmas removed from the Church? I suppose another large issue I had is that it seems that the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, which is formal dogma (as far as I know), seems--in part--to directly contradict the writings of Ignatius, not have biblical support (which isn't massively important to me), be influenced by Greek philosophy, and ontologically subordinates The Son to The Father by removing His aseity, making His existence ab alio instead. It says that Christ is eternally (πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων/before all of the ages) begotten, but Ignatius says that The Son is begotten in the flesh and, explicitly, unbegotten in the spirit (Ephesians 7:2). Those are my two biggest issues. I would love to hear your thoughts on them, if you have any you would like to share.
@@ramichahin2 (Col 1,15) "HE IS THE IMAGE of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." So.. you must be runaway from the movie titled "Dumb & Dumber".
@@johnnyd2383 What does that prove? All it is how Christ is the image of God. This is not the same as icon veneration as defined in Nicea II. Make a better case
Wow I'm so happy I discovered you through your recent debate with Trent Horn. I've been watching a lot of Catholics recently and have been deeply moved by the history of the church, which is (obviously) mostly Catholic. Your defense of protestantism is refreshing in the sense that there is deep rooted love but also dissent from later Catholic practices which seems was the sentiment of the original protestants toward the Catholic Church. Excited to watch more of your videos defending protestantism!
Malgré sa bonne volonté, il amalgame les idoles païennes et les représentations du Christ, de la Vierge Marie et des Saints. Dieu sait qui ces images pieuses représentent et, dans sa grande pédagogie, parce-que Il comprend le besoin humain de pouvoir voir et toucher, nous permet de prier avec ces images qui fixent notre attention sur le divin. Dieu a permis l'utisation de signes, de symboles et de sculptures: l'Arche de l'Alliance, le serpent d'airain dans le désert (préfigurant le Christ sur la croix), la croix peintes sur les portes des croyants en Egypte pour signifier à l'ange de la mort d'épargner les habitants de cette maison (les plaies d'Égypte).
Hi, I was considering orthodoxy but was wary of the icons and Mary veneration. Thank you for putting this together and on RUclips. I don’t know why orthodoxy is so attractive to me but now I see that I need to stand guard against the enticement of things like it. Thanks again!
This insistence on the second commandment is Judaizing The Judaizers were a faction of the Jewish Christians who regarded the Levitical laws of the Old Testament as still binding on Christians. They for instance, tried to enforce Jewish Sabbath and circumcision upon the Gentile converts. In Gavin's case, he tries to enforce the second commandment - his interpretation of it - on Christians. Of course Protestants totally ignore the fourth/Sabbath commandment. That doesn't work. "..whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." James 2:10 What make you of Christian freedom? Christ freed us from the legalistic aspects of the Law but doubled down on the internal moral law.
@Angismit Mary and icon veneration is something which troubles me also as a pro-orthodox Protestant. HOWEVER, Gavin teaches Calvinism, which means that God is a monster who condemns people to either heaven or hell for his own pleasure, and we have no ability to even alter our fate. There are ways to reconcile Mary and Icon veneration (Luke 1:48) "For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed", and I've never heard a Protestant call Mary blessed. But something which is irreconcilable is the predestination to either heaven or hell. Gavin is an incredibly charitable and humble man, but how anyone believes in that doctrine of devils is beyond me.
@@kevinjypiter6445God is holier than you think and man is more wicked than you think. God does not owe anyone mercy or grace. If He never saved a soul from the penalty of their sins, then He would still be just and perfect.
@@kevinjypiter6445 that would be a red herring: many Protestants aren’t Calvinist. We consider the Arminian Protestants brothers and sister, we don’t anathema them from the church like papists and eos do for refusing image veneration.
Praying for you, Gavin. This has caused quite a stir and dealing with accusations, mischaracterizations, disingenuous interpretations, and lies thrown at you is hard. Especially when in online communities like RUclips, it feels like you are outnumbered and outnumbered = you must be wrong. Be encouraged that you are doing good work, and the hasty responses that have been made to you completely mischaracterize your views and dodge the points made. Most importantly, I'm praying that you are graciously given the strength to fight off the attacks of Satan which tempt you to anger, defensiveness, and pride - may God get the glory!
As an orthodox who has had a big issue with kissing icons and praying to saints from childhood, I thank God for you and your videos. Look at their fruits. Look into how the priests actually conduct themselves in the orthodox countries. Look at their fruits. No one loves money more than an orthodox priest and his wife.
@Truth Unites ah man, my husband and I had high hopes for you as a rational Protestant. Do you venerate the Bible? If so, then you are worshipping the Bible, which, by your logic, makes an idol out of it. The Word (i.e. Jesus) has existed infinitely longer than the Bible (John 1). The Bible is a gift from God, not God Himself. Similar to demonizing kissing the Bible, your demonizing kissing icons is tantamount to demonizing other gifts from God based on YOUR imperfect wisdom. It's a form of Manichaeism - a terrible heresy that causes grief among the faithful because it misrepresents who God is to His loved ones. By you proclaiming good things as bad, you make yourself into a god, and THAT is what causes you to be an anathma. Regards, Dr. Enshala
This is surely one of the most intellectually challenging videos I’ve ever seen. Committed Catholic here, and that commitment’s still standing, but Boy, we’ve got some ‘splainin’ to do.
@johnlittle1993 Peace. All explaining has been done. I refer you to Nicea II for an explanation on icons. Also- veneration does not equal worship. As the Church, we venerate the Cross of Christ. In essence, it is simply wood, with no real worldly value. However, it was what happened on that cross that makes all the difference. Similarly, the author of this post would not trample upon his Bible or burn it, not because it has great value in and of itself (it's paper and ink and maybe a hard cover), but because of what it represents. The icon of the so-called "Dark Virgin" is again made of simple materials. But it is believed to have been painted by the Disciple and Evangelist, Luke. Icons are a window as such, into the life of Christendom. THAT is why they are venerated. Through those windows, the Faithful come to know our Lord in a profound way. Stay the course. Blessings.
Hey, Bro. Thanks for writing. I actually did read Nicea II. And I actually did read the Canon where those who do not venerate icons are judged with an anathema. So, at least as far as the plain meaning of those canons is concerned, icon veneration is not optional for Catholics apparently; the legislation makes it mandatory. That process of development is a hard maneuver in my opinion, and I appreciate the resistance, even though I don’t per se judge the use of icons negatively. But maybe you can give me a pointer, because I can’t find it easily myself: since Gavin here says that Nicea II was not ratified by Rome at the time its decrees were promulgated, can you perhaps help me find the later act where it received papal confirmation? I’m interested to see if the confirmation was plenary or partial. Thanks!
@@JohnLittle1993 Peace, brother. Thank you for the comment, and you are most welcome. Remember that icon veneration is a respect and recognition of what the icon represents, which are truths of the Faith. That is the reason for the veneration. That same respect has been applied to stained glass windows and statues (and Church buildings for that matter) that depict stories of Salvation History. The idea is that just as we venerate the written Word that tells the story of Salvation History, we also venerate that SAME Holy Story depicted in Sacred Art. There really isn't a difficult concept to grasp here, as some would make it to be. In the end it comes down to believing and respecting (venerating) Salvation History as it is taught in images and Word. I will have to look into the acceptance of the Universal Church with regard to the canons. I would say that because Nicea II has not been refuted by the Church as other official gatherings of bishops (the Robber Synod comes to mind), there is at least an implicit acceptance of the Council if, in fact, there isn't an official recognition. There is more to the story for sure. Blessings.
@@JD-sj1znHi. When you say "all explaining has been done", do you mean that all of the guy in the video's points have been debunked? If so, where can I find all of the debunks?
I am pro-orthodox but this brother is dropping bombs in this video, I am very taken back by this information. I am protestant but have been swaying more and more towards Orthodoxy over the years but I can't deny that this video is very powerful in regards to the use of icons. I do not see how this can be refuted by anyone, it is very well sourced.
There is still a problem that even if you don’t have physical images, you always have mental images. I think the problem isn’t as simple as looking at the history seeing some things you don’t like, interpreting some texts in a very particular way and concluding it was wrong. I also think it is quite idealistic to believe art was ‘just for decorative and educational purpose’.
@@brambes1804I’ve thought the same thing. Since the illiteracy rate was so high in that time. Art was used to tell the story. I don’t see why having religious art back then is proof of icon veneration
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
@@brambes1804 One can according to EO theology not have mental images. And from personal experience it is quite a simple thing to pray without picturing the Lord or the Heavens or anything like it. It's not idealistic. It fits the best evidence of the intention of the Christian leaders. Whether some ill-informed person decided to venerate the art as a relic of his former pagan practice is not particularly relevant.
Dr. Ortlund, i have always loved your videos even if I'm quite a bit more liberal than you on several issues (I'm Episcopalian). But this has got to be your best presentation yet. Like a lot of people in the West I have long had this vague sense that Orthodoxy was "closer" to early Christianity than other Christian branches, and that Orthodoxy had remained essentially unchanged since ancient times. (As an Episcopalian I would add that "unchanging" is not always a good thing!) But i must thank you for exploding that ignorant assumption of mine. Icon veneration is indeed quite clearly a provable doctrinal change.
I see Protestantism as a pursuit of the truth not a pursuit of one’s own private judgment. Protestants DO acquiesce to something: The leading of the Holy Spirit as found in the Word of God. (John 17:17)
Yes except that’s nonsense and just another way of saying “my opinion.” Ever noticed every single branch of Protestantism claims they have the holy spiritual leading them to truth but all claim different things? It’s because that’s a nonsensical claim people use to act like whatever they personally believe the text says, based on their opinion was from the Holy Spirit and therefore right
With all due respect, how can that statement coexist with so many divisions, and not just on "the small things" There are major divides on eternal security, baptism, whether Catholics are Christians, etc.
Hard to explain the Spirit leading into thousands of denominations. Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
"I see Protestantism as a pursuit of the truth not a pursuit of one’s own private judgment. " Protestant is built with Sola Scriptura as its foundation, who's 16th centuries fruit was, is, and shall ever be, doctrinal chaos, confusion and division. The pursuit of truth completely elusive as it's foundation by definition is one's private, fallible and unauthoritative interpretation of scripture. Yet Christ himself made numerous promises regarding the Truth: Christ is the head of his Church (Col 1: 18) Christ''s Church is the pillar of truth (1 Tim 3: 15) Christ's Church is the bulwark of truth. (1 Tim 3: 15) Christ's Church is where the manifold wisdom of God is made known. (Eph 3: 10) *Christ PROMISED to lead it to ALL Truth.* (Jn 16: 13) Christ PROMISED that he would NEVER leave it. (Mt 28: 20) Christ PROMISED that the gates of hell would not prevail (it will not teach doctrinal error) ; (Mt 16: 18) Why not trust Christ?
@@matthew7491 I'm not going to spend hours refuting the broader message in the video. Others have done that work adnausem. Something Gavin continues to dodge btw. I doubt even if I did spend the hours to collect all relevant information you'd even bother reading it.
I have to admit, you make a very good argument that not only wowed but challenged my own faith. Too often do we hear from Catholics and Orthodox saying that the veneration of iconography was historical. Per your research, that is simply not the case.
I think the opposition to the veneration of icons is a Judaizing artefact rather than a mandate of the Christian faith because Christian Freedom dispensed with it. Many of the early Christians had that Jewish iconoclasm imbedded in their faith practice even though they were free of the Law. Compare that to how many early Christians were against doing away with the 4th Commandment, namely “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy" for obvious reasons. The Law said the observance was for eternity. Observing the Sabbath was even more foundational in Judaism than the issue of images. Christ never mentioned doing away with the Sabbath. He followed the Sabbath. Yet, the Church, which are the apostles and the believers, mandated that the that observance was not needed and the "new" day of worship was Sunday. What gall, what usurpation of power if they did not have the Lord's delegated authority. But the Church DID AND DOES HAVE Christ's delegated authority. The Church declaring the veneration of icons as licit makes official what Christian Freedom allowed all along. That the Church figures Gavin quoted retained certain Judaizing sentiments does not mean that Christian Freedom was no longer in operation. Church figures come and go, each shaped by their milieu and their outlooks stamped with the prevailing issues of the day but it is the Church that bears Christ's promise, eternally joined to Him, inseparable. It is the Church that moves through history and will do so in eternity.
@@AL_YZ This is a great observation. I really think there should be freedom in Christ and conscience for this. I think it may be a mistake to mandate veneration of icons, and a mistake to disallow the veneration of icons. There are a lot of issues in Romans 12-15 about freedom of conscience that sometimes gets lost in the tradition, either through unnecessary proscription or enforced prescription. If the Protestant movement can do one thing, I hope it's not the overthrowing of tradition, but the reintroduction to freedom of conscience on some of these traditions. But if freedom of conscience swings the opposite direction into condemnation of tradition, it just is repeating similar errors.
@@jonathananstett784 For a Roman Catholic, Christian Freedom prevails UNTIL the Church makes a definitive declaration of dogma after which the matter is settled. For instance, prior to the canon being finalized, there was back and forth as to which books were included, even among the fathers. But after a consensus is reached within the Church, questioning the canon was no longer an option. The working out of defined doctrines within the Church is often a contentious process over centuries sometimes - like finalizing the canon. For the RC, it is not just a pope unilaterally deciding this or that. Regarding the decree to compel veneration of icons, that was a very specific response to the intense battles - theological and political - which involved the powers of the day. It really tore through the Church of the time. It was authoritative but time-bound in practice. Like the issue of the Jewish Sabbath observance I mentioned, that was settled by the Church. So no-one has compelled anyone for the longest time ever since the iconoclastic controversies were over a thousand years ago. The Church had declared that the veneration of icons is licit and that is settled. Most RC are not even aware it was part of a recognized ecumenical council.
@@jonathananstett784 Fr oma Roman Catholic point of view, Christian Freedom prevails UNTIL the Church makes a definitive declaration of dogma after which the matter is settled. For instance, prior to the canon being finalized, there was back and forth as to which books were included, even among the fathers. But after a consensus is reached within the Church, questioning the canon was no longer an option. Same with the Sabbath. The working out of defined doctrines within the Church is often a contentious process over centuries sometimes - like finalizing the canon. Why so messy? Because Christ chose to deputize flesh and blood people to be His church and to teach His Word. He did not promise a new set of scriptures as a stand-alone guide that anyone can build their church around. The bible was written by the singular Church of Christ for the Church. He promised to abide with His church as it marches through history to the end of time. For the RC then, it is not just a pope unilaterally deciding this or that. So this present Pope with his problematic statements is a transient slice of time while the Church that Christ left behind is everlasting. Regarding the decree to compel veneration of icons, that was a very specific response to the intense battles - theological and political - which involved the powers of the day. It really tore through the Church of the time. It was authoritative but time-bound in practice. So no-one has compelled anyone for the longest time ever since the iconoclastic controversies were over a thousand years ago. The Church had declared that the veneration of icons is licit and the matter is settled. Most RC are not even aware it was part of a recognized ecumenical council.
@@AL_YZWe could use this argument for anything though, we could argue that the church politics, elders, fathers, priests, bishops, etc. are ALL against judaizers, and that christian freedom has done away with it. Why not? We can all agree a major reason for the very first politics of the church was not meant to be permanent, otherwise it would still exist as it was(it does not). The political structure of the church has changed much since the book of Acts, even since the days of the fathers, and as seen by Paul and Peter, much of what the apostles did was to stop judaizers. So who is Rome, who is Alexandria, who is Antioch to say we have freedom to overcome the prohibition on icon veneration?
Amazing explanation of icons!. Thank you so much for sharing your time , expertise and research on this subject. I have great tools to talk to my son that is convinced about becoming an Orthodox and of course justifying icon devotion. God bless you and keep pouring His blessings over you!!
I’ve always been a Protestant that wanted to convert to Catholicism with my friends or Orthodox. But every time I started to dig deeper into it I realized I just like the sincerity of the aesthetics of those churches and the quietness of heart that they invoke when you enter them. Even the discipline of the rosary seemed like a helpful tool for my wandering mind. BUT I never converted and have realized I am as Protestant as they come. When I read the Bible and gospels Catholicism and Orthodoxy just seemed so far away from the flavor of the simple purity of the New Testament. To top it off I’m an artist and I have always struggled with the purpose of my art and Christian art and afraid of creating idol like images. I’m very wary of it and continually have to ask God why he gave me this gift and its highest purpose, how to use it for him without it becoming more than that.
Wow, after this I am seriously considering taking the Protestant reformation seriously, currently an Orthodox catechumen, I realized lately that I didn't give Protestantism an honest enough consideration so I watched this video. I had a large misconception that Protestantism had no patristic backing, thank you for this video!
The canon he quotes are from catholic post schism and not Orthodox. He’s giving a bias perspective not even from the original council. Ask yourself how many countries were invaded by Protestants and Catholics and how many cultures were decimated then ask yourself how many times the Orthodox committed such acts. You will know them by their fruits.
@@PatronSaintSpyridon Peace. Your history is a bit skewed to say the least. The Orthodox were part of the Crusades, and were responsible for the Massacre of the Latins prior to the Sack of Constantinople. The Orthodox also murdered the wife of Manuel I Komnenos, their own empress. Please... AND the Canon was set at the Council of Hippo in 393. That same canon the Catholic Church uses today. It is the Orthodox who are in schism since they are NOT in union with Peter (see Mt 16:16), and establish their own Apostolic missions and juristictions apart from Peter. I pray that one day we can be one, as Christ is One.
@@JD-sj1zn The Orthodox, as Pope John Paul II stated clearly, have most dutifully kept to the authentic traditions of the Apostles - we have never been in Schism as your excommunication in 1054 was invalid, but since then your See has clearly walked away from the rest of the Church and has caused so much trouble with innovation that Protestantism is squarely your responsibility. Do not throw stones in your own glass house.
@@dankmartin6510 Not being in union with Peter is schism. Setting up Apostolic missions and jurisdictions apart from Peter is schism. Teaching a doctrine apart from 1000 yrs of Tradition with regard to the Keys is schismatic- the very definition of schism. Study your revered Saints who all were in union with Peter BEFORE you throw your stones, sir.
Thanks Dr. Ortlund, this is one of your best videos so far. Thank you for being loving yet at the same time telling the truth. Also thank you, for being very professional in your quotations, one can see, that you truly don’t try to misrepresent anyone and that you do both, following your conscience and staying true to church history. 😊
This isn't true to history - it's a terrible example of lack of understanding about idolatry. If you venerate your Bible, are you guilty of idolatry? You can't venerate the Bible without providing for an allowance to venerate the cross, icons, people, or any other sanctified offering to God or gift from God. It's tantamount to Manichaeism, which is a heresy that material things are intrinsically evil. Any material thing can be made into an idol - so people driven by pride declared all material things evil. That's a heresy. Same thing with Icons.
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
I have never seen a more even-handed and objective report on the questions surrounding icon veneration. I enter this as part of my research into Orthodox understandings and practices because I have Orthodox friends I love and want to understand. I watch their Orthodox videos done by some well-educated and clear-teaching priests. I've seen those priests use the language Dr. Ortlund attributes to them, which elevates my confidence in Dr. Ortlund as he does not mock or mischaracterize them. Thank you, Dr. Ortlund, for being gracious and sharing these scholarly videos with those of us who are seeking the truth.
If I may add to the conversation. Even God Himself commanded images to be made - the statues of cherubim that go on either side of the tabernacle and the bronze serpent (which when people looked at it, they were healed from their snake bites) to name a couple. God made us to be body AND spirit, not just spirit. As such, the LORD comes to us in both spiritual and physical ways. Think of Jesus - He healed by His Word, and by mixing His saliva with dirt and putting it on a man's eyes. He gave large crowds bread and fish to keep them sustained. A woman was healed through touching the tassel of His cloak. He physically died on the Cross for us. He instituted the Eucharist - we get to actually receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus, truly Present in the Eucharist, into our bodies. Wow! What an amazing gift. God made us with bodies, and He declared it very good. Our bodies are not bad. Images are not banned - graven images are. Looking at/having an image of Jesus is not only not harmful, it's powerful and beautiful! I encourage you to look into the Catholic Faith - good resources can be found on Ascension Presents (RUclips, the Ascension App) and Catholic Answers (website and RUclips). God bless! - A Catholic Christian
I don't think this video will make a person protestant. A person that does not think the Bible is infallible or even correct, will not suddenly think: Oh, icon veneration is an accretion, I should be a protestant Christian. I agree with Trent Horn on that point. For protestantism to be true Protestant claims need to be proven, disproving catholic/orthodox claims does not do that.
@@georgwagner937Protestantism doesn’t have to be proven true, all it does is rely on the Bible. All we care about is that the Bible is true. And yeah, that can definitely cause differences in belief and practice, but not in orthodox beliefs - those are not “Christian.” But if we disprove Catholicism / Orthodoxy, that is, any of the “infallible” portions, the whole point of authority falls. Therefore, the church is not the only authority. And those who disagree with the authority are… drum roll… protesters. Or, Protestants. So if you want to be a Christian, but reject the Catholic / Orthodox views, you can easily be a Protestant. Anyways, I am not against Catholic / Orthodox Christians. But I don’t think their authority as the only church (not necessarily “true,” - I think all three branches are true) is accurate.
@@Tornadospeed10Asserting that if orthodoxy is false means that Christianity is false is just that - an assertion. Anyways, I never said orthodoxy or the Orthodox Church wasn’t true. I think it is. I don’t think it is infallible in every aspect though. For example, the assumption of Mary could have never happened, and the Orthodox Church would still be true. Fallible men stating that something is true when it isn’t doesn’t stop the scripture from remaining true. I’m not saying all traditions outside the Bible are false, but I think some are false.
I'm a new-ish Christian. When I recently came across EO I became enthralled with the idea of it being the original church and its beautiful ceremonies. But as I've been researching EO over the past month or so, I paused when I became aware of the venerations of saints. The book of Judges makes it clear that mankind has a propensity for worshipping things and other people, and makes it VERY clear this does not please the LORD! Twenty minutes into this video has cleared this all up for me (I watched the whole thing though) and has ended my romance with EO. Thank you!
I’ve been on the same journey, and feel as though this video has served the same purpose for me as well. Thank you, Gavin, for quite literally doing The Lord’s work.
I did the same thing last year when I was only a few months into my walk with Christ. Now after almost 2 years, I've been regularly attending an Orthodox Parish for about a month and I love it. It's very common within the Protestant world to get hung up on the idea that since Christ is the only mediator between God and man - our spiritual lives are a individual, single-line connection between us and God. Orthodoxy sees things differently. We believe that God's grace is superabundant it flows out through the ones He has glorified - the saints, and especially through His mother, by whose obedience bore the One who would conquer death and reconcile us to God. Our worship is reserved for God alone, but we recognize that His grace pours out into those people in our lives, both those here on earth, and those who reside in the heavenly kingdom, and that we can call on them to be vessels of the grace that has it source in Him alone. Also is God not "over all, in all and through all."? (Ephesians 4)
@@ssseth9321how does one become a vessel of unmerited favor? How can unmerited favor be carried like water or cargo? We can surely supply it to others from ourselves, but how can we carry it on behalf of another? And I would suggest Christ being our only mediator is literally what the scripture teaches. One can participate in a spiritual life with others while only having one mediator.
I know fruits of the spirit is patience. But I don't know why for the life of me I can't stand the waffling on this issue for people that were never compelled to worship these images. A wicked and adulterous generation demands a sign. Why does one have to convince oneself that they are in true worship with the aide of art and images, smells and ancient relics? That is a pagan inclination.
@@Vanpotheosisyes. I do not approve of nativity scenes and crucifixes (and I mean crucifixes specifically, not crosses. Crucifixes being a cross with a depiction of Christ on it. I say this for those who might not know the difference).
Dr Ortlund, I've been following your RUclips channel for a couple of years now and you've made a lot of great videos but I've got to say that this one is, hands down, the best you've ever done.
@@TruthUnites This video came at the perfect time, because I’m going to be debating an Eastern Orthodox priest at the end of the month about whether prayer to Mary and the scenes, and their images and icons, are a form of worship or not. While we may not really get deep into the veneration of images, the focus is going to be on veneration of Mary and the Saints themselves. Do you have a video that focuses specifically on that? I’m planning on watching this video in the meantime. God bless you and your ministry as always Dr. Ortlund, 👍
The RCC not following the 2nd commandment made me question the Roman Catholic Church. My relationship with God has become stronger and clear since I have turned to following God's word!
You demand that the RCC observe the second commandment: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above." (Actually, no one observes that. You interpret it loosely based on your own authority and even Gavin does not prohibit images as such but rather with veneration of images. Now, Muslims. THEY are really observant of that prohibition.) Yet if you are like the vast majority of protestants, you do not observe the 4th, the Sabbath. The 4th Commandment: "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy" That is supposed to be forever hence the Jews to this day. In fact, the observance of the Sabbath is even more foundational to Judaism. Jesus Christ observed the Sabbath. You know who made the day of worship the first day of the week (Sunday) instead of the Sabbath? The Church. If the Church did not have the authority to basically cross out the 4th commandment, then you are in deep trouble. Because you know that to not observe one part is to fail to observe the entirety of the law. “For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all." (James 2:10-11) What make you of Christian Freedom which frees Christians from the strictures of the Law? You and Gavin are Judaizing.- requiring observance of a Jewish prohibition.
Peace. How exactly does the "Church" not follow the Second(First) commandment? And the implication that you did not have God's Word or that you couldn't follow it while IN the Church makes one question in what "church" you were. And as an aside, Sola Scriptura is not taught in the Bible, (and no, not even in 2Tim). But, if you are interested in learning the answers to the questions that were not answered for you, I am here. Blessings.
What an awesome video. I knew next to nothing about this topic yesterday and now I feel like I know so much, yet I’ve barely scratched the surface of how much knowledge there is on the topic. I feel like so much knowledge is knowing what you don’t know
If I may add to the conversation. Even God Himself commanded images to be made - the statues of cherubim that go on either side of the tabernacle and the bronze serpent (which when people looked at it, they were healed from their snake bites) to name a couple. God made us to be body AND spirit, not just spirit. As such, the LORD comes to us in both spiritual and physical ways. Think of Jesus - He healed by His Word, and by mixing His saliva with dirt and putting it on a man's eyes. He gave large crowds bread and fish to keep them sustained. A woman was healed through touching the tassel of His cloak. He physically died on the Cross for us. He instituted the Eucharist - we get to actually receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus, truly Present in the Eucharist, into our bodies. Wow! What an amazing gift! God made us with bodies, and He declared it very good. Our bodies are not bad. Images are not banned - graven images are. Looking at/having an image of Jesus is not only not harmful, it's powerful and beautiful! I encourage you to look into the Catholic Faith - good resources can be found on Ascension Presents (RUclips, the Ascension App) and Catholic Answers (website and RUclips). God bless! - A Catholic Christian
Yes, everyone is commenting on it because it is astonishing that in this day and age, there are still iconoclasts. Unbelievable. Why are you so excited about this? Is this your way of living boldly for Christ?
Hi Shelley! If I may add to the conversation. Even God Himself commanded images to be made - the statues of cherubim that go on either side of the tabernacle and the bronze serpent (which when people looked at it, they were healed from their snake bites) to name a couple. God made us to be body AND spirit, not just spirit. As such, the LORD comes to us in both spiritual and physical ways. Think of Jesus - He healed by His Word, and by mixing His saliva with dirt and putting it on a man's eyes. He gave large crowds bread and fish to keep them sustained. A woman was healed through touching the tassel of His cloak. He physically died on the Cross for us. He instituted the Eucharist - we get to actually receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus, truly Present in the Eucharist, into our bodies. Wow! What an amazing gift. God made us with bodies, and He declared it very good. Our bodies are not bad. Images are not banned - graven images are. Looking at/having an image of Jesus is not only not harmful, it's powerful and beautiful! I encourage you to look into the Catholic Faith - good resources can be found on Ascension Presents (RUclips, the Ascension App) and Catholic Answers (website and RUclips). God bless! - A Catholic Christian
Thanks so much for addressing this with so much documentation. I was once led astray by arguments in favor of icon veneration but I have to admit I could never fully embrace it at the heart or conscience level. Although I know that many who are in favor of icon veneration will have a comeback for everything you’ve presented and that they will ultimately appeal to the “consensus of the fathers” and to their ecclesiology, I am convinced they have erred on this subject. Thanks for speaking the truth in love.
Gavin ortlund, thank you for the video! Should I destroy icons or statues of Jesus? I am confused of the proper Biblical stance. Should I keep a picture of Christ? I do not venerate them but it is decorative/a reminder of Christ.
@@michaelwhitman9937 If you believe they’re a 2 commandment violation, you could. If they lead you astray to worship them, destroy them as Hezekiah destroyed the Bronze Serpent (2 Kings 18:4).
@@michaelwhitman9937at's between you and God. If it starts affecting you then put them away. I grew up near a Catholic lady's house that had giant crosses everywhere and crowds would gather on Friday 13th because visions of Mary would appear to her. That's the context I have with icons and saints. To me, crosses and pictures should be considered like a flag or logo. You wouldn't set fire to your country's flag but you're not gonna build an altar to it. I personally don't want a cross in my room but on a Bible or Christian phone app, or in church is fine.
As a Protestant enquiring into Orthodoxy, the dogma surrounding icon veneration arising from the Seventh Ecumenical Council has been a significant barrier to entry. I've actually grown to admire the practice of icon veneration, and see how it could add value to a Christian's life. But I can't see myself agreeing that it is a necessity for sanctification/theosis, or that any Christian failing to venerate icons is anathema to the Church. I was initially drawn to EO because I thought it preserved the liturgy and worship that Christ taught the apostles, but I have found the arguments for 1st century icon veneration to be severely lacking. Thanks for all you do, looking forward to watching this!
Think hard and very carefully before you make that leap. My son and cycled through the EO church. I was excommunicated shortly after my baptism, and drove 16 hours one way to see the bishop about it. He wasn't overly concerned,. So I got my critical thinking cap back on, and soon saw EO for what it is- a remnant of the church of Constantine. Once you ask the right questions, and look for biblical answers, you will see that the EO church is a false church. Here is a simple question. How are local churches governed in the NT. By a separate priestly caste? Or by elders/ pastors? That we are adopted sons and daughters of God under the new covenant is key to understanding the differences. I have attempted to communicate with my former priests since I returned to Protestantism (I am Baptist) and have received only one response: they will only talk with me once I return to the EO church, and not otherwise. They have been good for their word. So much for the love of Christ, eh?
@@1Immanuel8 I don't think that it's a false church - the question for me is whether it alone is the "One True Church". Out of curiosity - why were you excommunicated shortly after your baptism?
@@nathanielchristian7027 I inquired into Orthodoxy for a year. The main question is if you believe it is the only One True Church, like you said. I could never believe that. I've seen the fruit of the spirit in many other churches, and claims your church is the only one is always based on very shaky epistemology at best. Just reeks of institutional propaganda to me. I'm now very happily Anglican, we take the most reasonable answer to that question.
This was great. I'm reading up on my Protestant history and it is really eye-opening. Ancient history is one of those areas you need to actually have the language chops for though, so I'm glad this is available.
Martin Luther sure did made a big old mess. His teaching deceived millions who have absolutely no clue as to how their religion was formed an alcoholic mentally unstable Catholic priest that hated the Jew, mocked the word of God, and broke his vows. I bet 99% of all Protestants have never read his sermon "The Jews & his Lies". All Protestant Churches and denomination can be traced directly to either Horny King Henry the 8th who broke off from the Catholic Church to commit adultery, or to Luther the drunk. And while we're at it, the vast majority Protestants couldn't tell you where the Bible came from to save their lives. Yet these trolls think they are Masters of Scripture & the only ones that are saved. Don't believe me? Read their comments.
If I may add to the conversation. Even God Himself commanded images to be made - the statues of cherubim that go on either side of the tabernacle and the bronze serpent (which when people looked at it, they were healed from their snake bites) to name a couple. God made us to be body AND spirit, not just spirit. As such, the LORD comes to us in both spiritual and physical ways. Think of Jesus - He healed by His Word, and by mixing His saliva with dirt and putting it on a man's eyes. He gave large crowds bread and fish to keep them sustained. A woman was healed through touching the tassel of His cloak. He physically died on the Cross for us. He instituted the Eucharist - we get to actually receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus, truly Present in the Eucharist, into our bodies. Wow! What an amazing gift. God made us with bodies, and He declared it very good. Our bodies are not bad. Images are not banned - graven images are. Looking at/having an image of Jesus is not only not harmful, it's powerful and beautiful! I encourage you to look into the Catholic Faith - good resources can be found on Ascension Presents (RUclips, the Ascension App) and Catholic Answers (website and RUclips). God bless! - A Catholic Christian
Gavin, I love the manner in which you speak, and I must add, I really did enjoy hearing you speak with an extra tone of boldness in this video. It was great. Keep up the good work. These videos are always worth listening to.
WELP! I was seriously considering Orthodoxy, but this was extremely insightful into this issue which was ONE of the big ones preventing me from changing to it. Wow... great video, Gavin
Read St. John of Damascus writings (and the story of his life) and the writings of St. Theodore the Studite on the matter of iconography. Look up events surrounding the Hawaiian icon of the Theotokos of Iveron and Kursk root icon. The lives of the Orthodox Saints are key in helping to understand these matters. (Emphasizing the importance of the lived experience of the life of the Church in the Saints throughout history. - the Gospel lived out in the lives of the Saints.) Keep going Peter, slow and steady.
I respect this man, he is humble a respectful kn presenting his arguments, unlike most people intuese comments. Im not educated well enough to argue or try to prove any points in these comments. I was brought up with exposure to both Catholicism and protestantism, one aide of family was one, themother side the other. I just want to say my favorite olace to worship is churches usually in downtown, more run dinw area churches with the huge vaulted ceilings, staine x glass windows, the statues. The beautiful art on those ceiling, and yes, statues. I feel so close to God in those beautiful old Catholic churches I dont worship the statues. I dont think many peope have actually visited the places they speak out against so much. Just my opinion
Gavin! Tremendous work on putting this video together. You have challenged and given me (an orthodox Inquirer) much to think about. I would be very interested in listening in on a conversation between you and Jonathan Pageau about the symbolism and use of Iconography. From watching him speak on the matter, I feel that I have learned that the reason for appealing to the saints for forgiveness and other matters, as opposed to directly receiving from the hands of God is because of the participatory nature of God's Kingdom. It is not that we need their mediation but that Saints are welcomed to participate in "the divine council" and other roles as an act of God's love. In this way, love ascends up and back down the hierarchy in a beautiful harmonious fashion that unites Heaven and Earth. Veneration of the Icon allows us to enter this reality and one that is more truly understood through experience. I have found this idea of "participation" most powerfully expressed in the theme of the Son of Man, Genesis, and the biblical narrative as a whole. To be honest the info presented here is causing much cognitive dissonance and doubt. I have many experiences that tell me that venerating icons is a beautiful thing but cannot deny the alarming info presented here. In moments like this I find the only thing I can turn to is Christ in prayer. Should I set my home icon of Christ and the saints aside despite it helping orient my life around Him? I don't know the answer to that. I have been telling myself that the fruits of the spirit would be my litmus test for truth. In other words, has God made me more like him or less through communing with the saints? I am still waiting to see. Perhaps Idolatry has more to do with the heart then the action. I pray for discernment and ask that you would pray for me too. Thank you for your faithfulness.
You don’t need to remove the icons in your home, religious art can Be greatly edifying. The difference is whether we use art for devotion or for actual worship and for the liturgy
Hi Matthew! If I may add to the conversation. Even God Himself commanded images to be made - the statues of cherubim that go on either side of the tabernacle and the bronze serpent (which when people looked at it, they were healed from their snake bites) to name a couple. God made us to be body AND spirit, not just spirit. As such, the LORD comes to us in both spiritual and physical ways. Think of Jesus - He healed by His Word, and by mixing His saliva with dirt and putting it on a man's eyes. He gave large crowds bread and fish to keep them sustained. A woman was healed through touching the tassel of His cloak. He physically died on the Cross for us. He instituted the Eucharist - we get to actually receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus, truly Present in the Eucharist, into our bodies. Wow! What an amazing gift. God made us with bodies, and He declared it very good. Our bodies are not bad. Images are not banned - graven images are. Looking at/having an image of Jesus is not only not harmful, it's powerful and beautiful! I encourage you to look into the Catholic Faith - good resources can be found on Ascension Presents (RUclips, the Ascension App) and Catholic Answers (website and RUclips). God bless! - A Catholic Christian
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
I have known the position of the early church and in scripture on this matter for a long time. To hear a scholarly presentation of how we arrived from there to here is quite educational, thank you.
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
@@christianperspective9527 All that is addressed in the videos I referenced. Simply offering a much deeper dive into the topic than Gavin has put forth for those interested.
Although I respect people who prefer a Protestant path, my christian life bloomed when I joined the Orthodox Church. Icons are central in my worship. Like music and Liturgy. I worship the Father , Son and Holy Spirit-that’s it. Don’t understand the confusion.
The true church is the Bible believing church, not a church that puts their traditions above the Holy Bible, “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.”◄ Exodus 20:4
@@findev6330 The true church is the church established by Christ, beginning with Pentecost in 33 AD, which is the Orthodox. The Bible was not canonized until your 397AD..Christians existed well before that. Tradition precedes the Bible, but is not superior to it. The Bible must be interpreted within the context of tradition, that's how you avoid many heresies and liberal nonsense that non-denominational and mega churches fall for.
@@LaRevolution0 The church that hid the Bible for a thousand years and burned people alive for owning the scripture in their native language has truth, don’t make me laugh!
Just wanted to say this has been a great channel. It has caused me to question why I believe what I believe. At the outset this is a scary thing it has caused me to look deeper at church history, the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and the reformation. It is all so much deeper and more complicated than I ever thought.
It turns out the RCC and EO are being ahistorical interesting; they traditions are in fact hardly apostolic and had to “develop” and more often than not unbiblical
Incredible work sir, thank you and my the LORD continue to bless. I have been interacting with Catholic friends and acquaintances more on these issues and appreciate your thoughtful approach to these very deep doctrinal divides. This and the Marian dogmas are the primary issues that prevented me from converting, these practices are clearly later additions unto the Faith.
Excellent as always. I can’t wait for Michael Lofton’s response video. This is timely, as he recently put out a video defending Pope Francis for the Pachamama statue veneration. He shows a video of a woman referring to it as “our lady of the Amazon” in Spanish, and basically says that means it’s a depiction of Mary. I asked him in the comments if the statue was made with the intent of being Mary or if it was made as Pachamama and repurposed into Mary. I didn’t get into this, but I was trying to parse out what makes something a statue or icon worthy of veneration-is it intent of the person venerating, is it what it was made as, is it consecrated, etc. He replied that that is irrelevant to the accusation of idolatry, and that Catholics have long appropriated pagan elements into Christianity. I can’t see how venerating a representation of an Amazonian pagan goddess isn’t idolatry, but I’m sure he would respond that I’m incorrectly assuming something and that I should be more charitable.
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
@@culpepper7665 This is the problem with orthodox & catholic response videos , y’all take 5 hours to respond to a 1 hour video and spend most of the 5 hours on red herrings lol
Except for the part where Ortland demonstrates his ignorance of how doctrinal development works. Is he trying to say "Bad Catholics! You can't even use your own model correctly! " or is it more like, "Bad Catholics! You aren't adhering to Luther's Sacred Tradition of Sola Scriptura! " I mean, which is it? In conflating the two, he produced a nonsensical mess. Does he REALLY want to cite Origen for Christian wisdom apart from the Magisterium? Did you know that Origen removed his own family jewels because he took literally Jesus' admonition to pluck out an eye if it offends thee? There is so much to address... Honestly, this video is sloppy.
@@enshala6401 I think he’s representing how much OE and ROC simply justify idol worship very clearly. If you can’t see this, I’d encourage you to really let down your ego and pray about this.
@@batmanfan7506 I have studied, prayed, and reflected for decades on the Christian faith, and though I always need to pray more for the big challenges going on in my life, the subject of icons is most definitely not one of them. I am Palestinian, and icons are part of our culture, so iconoclasts are virtually racist to me. It's so unbelievably ignorant. We don't pray to a block of wood, and you guys representing it as such is really wrong. I don't understand how anyone can be so daft. Maybe you should pray about it yourself....? I mean, how would you feel if someone accused you of idolatry for your Bible worship?
This was a truly phenomenal and helpful video. Thank you for all your hard work! One thing I admire is your humility and scholarship compared to popular EO apologists like Reader Paul, whose videos are filled with prideful antics, silly voices, wiggling his face around in the camera, editing in insulting memes, etc. The simple presentation of historical facts is really all that's required. To be deep in history, is to be deeply Protestant!
But it wasn't through he conveniently ignored the evidence in support. Appeals to a few heretics and ignores the ppl who gave him the scriptures venerated icons.
@@noobitronius baseless? Tell me who did he appeal to in regards to evidence of early church? I will wait for your response. When you list them out I think you will see my piint.
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
Thank-you Gavin as a Protestant considering Orthodoxy for a while now. I've recently started looking more deeper into this subject it makes 0 sense when regarding scripture. Godbless you and your family ❤
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
Thank you for all the time it must have taken you to put together this video. Videos like this are so needed right now. So many Protestants have no roots and are falling away right now.
@@TJMcCarty Not according to that Word itself. Scripture says that the CHURCH is the bulwark and foundation of Truth. The Canon was not decided upon until the 4th century. What was the Authority in the first 4 centuries? The Church was. Who decided on the Canon of Scripture? The Church did. As Augustine, a Catholic bishop, stated, "I would not believe in Scripture, if not for the authority of the Catholic Church." As the Church, we DO believe that Scripture is the Word of God. But it is only because our Lord gave us an authoritative Church that told us it is.
@@TJMcCarty Consider looking at the Church for the first 16 centuries of Christendom, when there was only "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church". (Nicea I, 325AD)
@@TJMcCarty Peace. Also, in your search for an accurate Bible (yes, I read your post from 3 weeks ago), consider buying the Catholic Douay-Rheims version with notes by Bishop Challoner. Blessings.
accretion noun ac·cre·tion ə-ˈkrē-shən Synonyms of accretion 1 : the process of growth or enlargement by a gradual buildup: such as a : increase by external addition or accumulation (as by adhesion of external parts or particles) b : the increase of land by the action of natural forces 2 : a product of accretion
Thank you for putting this together. May I request one thing? Could you put this into the format of an article with full quotes of these church fathers and citations? An hour-long video is a big ask for those I want to show this to, but this video is one of the best resources on this topic I've come across. Please turn this into an article. This need to be seen far and wide. I myself am a former Catholic, and I am deeply concerned that there seems to be a trend of Protestants who have been converted to Orthodoxy or to Catholicism. Catholics and Orthodox are far better at attacking iconoclasm/aniconism than Protestants are at defending it.
@@TruthUnites Excellent video, great content with historic references, looking forward to your forthcoming book on this subhect. I am a exRoman catholic, now Born Again Christian, though family is still RC, praying for them to move away from this idolatry and legalism of RC. God bless you for imparting the truth. From: Mumbai, India.
Yes Berkana totally agree. That would be a great help to Catholics like me who would wish to point out some things the good pastor may wish to change. Thanks. Thanks for the suggestion!
This is probably one of your best videos. I’m a Protestant but there are so few Protestants out there making reliable content that seriously addresses the issue of Icon Veneration. Your reliance on primary sources is great and scathing to the RC/EO position (imo). I’m curious - do lutheran and Anglicans that use crucifixes and icons in worship/devotion look at this similarly to RC/EO?
Anglican here. My priest laid it out like this: "We affirm the christological definitions of the Nicea II." We do have a crucifix and most if not all the parish bows to it as a symbol of Christ the King. When I voiced my queasiness I was assured I don't have to bow and that I should not go against my conscience. After much prayer and research I now do bow. I also have a few icons gifted to me by a friend. I occasionally kiss them as a show of affection for Christ and gratitude towards the saints who are praying for us. But all this is personal devotion not mandated.
@@EloSportsTalk As a Lutheran, yes, some churches use crucifixes, but many do not. For those that use them, we see them as symbolic of what we call the Theology of the Cross. They remind us of the salvation offered to us all through the death and resurrection of Christ. But we do not venerate them. Call it an object lesson and a reminder of the reality of Christ's sacrifice for us.
Lutheran here. There is a bright red line between contemplating a crucifix/icon/religious art and bowing to, kissing, or otherwise venerating that object. Very few Lutheran churches will ever allow bowing to or kissing a crucifix.
Looking at God's command in the Decalogue, the command is not against making images per se, but against making images "to bow down to them or serve them".
Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame. That’s a prayer to a saint. No other to look at it. It’s in the Bible
@@EmptyDisc1 Not really my point. yes it is a parable not didactic teaching. My point is that the protestant sensitivity to calling on other than God for succour or help doesnt seem to be shared by Jesus or his disciples or the jewish opponents listening to Jesus. Jesus included a detail in the story which would make a protestant cringe or have to somehow explain away as you have attempted to. Jesus didnt have to teach prayers to the saints, it was already something his audience was well familiar with hence the detail is included in His story, which is continued by the Orthodox Church. It is the protestant position that is a novelty. Honestly answer this question is there any circumstance in this life or the next (in the presence of God) in your paradigm, when I can say "Mother Mary, have mercy on me, send gabriel to assist me in my hour of suffering"? Your answer, in your paradigm would be that that is idolatry because no pleas or intercession can be directed to other than God. Well, looks like jesus and his audience dont share your sensitivities.
@@EmptyDisc1 again that’s not my point. I don’t believe Jesus is teaching prayers to the saints there. That would be absurd, it’s absurd because everyone just accepted it was a thing they did. The reason we can conclude that is no one is protesting idolatry there. But a Protestant would definitely protest and say that the story is an example of idolatry.
@@EmptyDisc1 if your point is that Jesus taught a blatantly false story. Then you’re delusional. A parable, a story communicates truth. Your position is that Jesus is incorporating idolatry into his story! Really? That’s where you want to go? Jesus incorporates elements that his audience is familiar with. Hence they are familiar with the idea of appealing to saints and patriarchs for succour. Something that you would categorize as idolatry. Basically the Protestant position would be that appealing for succour to other than God is idolatry. Again not a position Jesus and his followers shared. My point to put it succinctly is that the Protestant objects to appealing to Patriarchs and Saints for succour. That position is a novelty and contradicts Christs teachings.
@@EmptyDisc1 and this is the problem with sola scriptura. You assume that there is no context that Jesus lived in, no culture and no basic assumptions and traditions. But we can glean this from the parable easily. They didn’t react with shock and wonder at a person appealing to a patriarch for succour. That’s because it wasn’t a shock to them. However, we know it would be a shock to a Protestant to appeal to a saint or patriarch for succour and so we can see that the Protestant position is the novelty.
Gavin, thank you for a very well thought out and supported presentation of this topic. You are a gifted defender of God's Word and the true blessing to the faith of Christianity. I was raised in the Catholic Church, but did not stay there. I basically became apostate, until God in His love and grace blessed me with salvation when I was born again at the age of 51. I could write a book about the failings of the RCC in communicating the Gospel to me or to many of the people I have known in my life. In regard to idolatry, I still remember as a child that we had one of those plastic, magnetic 'Saint Christopher' statues on the dashboard of our car that was supposed to protect us as we traveled -- I was not taught that it was some conduit to God for protection. Also, I still remember the prayer to 'Saint Anthony' I was taught as a young child -- "Saint Anthony of Padua was always wise and kind. He never had a penny, but he never seemed to mind. Now that Anthony's in heaven, if you ever lose your toys, I advise you to invoke him for he's good to girls and boys." Is that not idolatry? No mention of God or Jesus. I was taught that Anthony was going to help me.
This is brilliant work! Was even better when I watched a second time now. So much to comprehend and remember. Thank you Gavin for sharing your labor and produce with the us, the hungry. God bless you.
Hi JJCOG! If I may add some things, I'd like to. Even God Himself commanded images to be made - the statues of cherubim that go on either side of the tabernacle and the bronze serpent (which when people looked at it, they were healed from their snake bites) to name a couple. God made us to be body AND spirit, not just spirit. As such, the LORD comes to us in both spiritual and physical ways. Think of Jesus - He healed by His Word, and by mixing His saliva with dirt and putting it on a man's eyes. He gave large crowds bread and fish to keep them sustained. A woman was healed through touching the tassel of His cloak. He died on the Cross for us. He instituted the Eucharist! We get to actually receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus! God made us with bodies, and He declared it very good. Our bodies are not bad. Images are not banned - graven images are. Looking at/having an image of Jesus is not only not harmful, it's powerful and beautiful! I encourage you to look into the Catholic Faith - good resources can be found on Ascension Presents (RUclips, the Ascension App) and Catholic Answers (website and RUclips). God bless! - A Catholic Christian
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
Can’t wait to give this a listen! I’m just finishing up an intensive study on this topic. I think that this is a litmus test area, since it’s one of the clearest places where one thing was believed universally in 250, and quite another thing in 850.
@@TruthUnites Will do. In fact, I'll send you the results of my investigation, if there's a good way of getting that to you. If not, I'll just post a link here. God bless.
Hi Lynn. Here is my take on this topic as a convert to Orthodoxy: Veneration of icons is just the outward expression of the inward veneration of God’s work in the life of the Saints. If it isn’t an act of idolatry for Asians to bow to each other, or Europeans to kiss each other, or for a grieving wife to kiss a picture of her husband, why would it be in the case of those who became radiant vessels of the Holy Spirit? The ultimate logic of why the 7th Ecumenical Council and the Orthodox Church today have for considering this practice necessary, is the same logic Protestants use to explain the Biblical verses that clearly state the necessity of works for salvation. It’s not that the act in itself saves you, but there is no way to explain how a person could have repented without the fruits of repentance, there’s no way someone truly loves God without expressing that love in actions, and there’s no way they can truly love God and fail to express love to those people through whom His presence most shined in the world.
@@Jy3pr6 Thanks for your kind explanation. I actually don't have anything at all against venerating icons myself, and I kind of like the practice. It's the historical evidence that has convinced me that we shouldn't practice it. You're welcome to check out my article series on the topic, linked in my reply to Gavin.
As a catholic, I love how everything is sacramental. We experience God in the physical world that He made for us. I can pray by watching a sunset, watching the trees, or enjoying an icon painting. God wants us to Love Him, and while He gives us some rules to do so properly, He also gives us a creative spirit and an attraction to beauty that is absolutely theologically relevant.
I am now a practicing Catholic. Born Catholic, became a Baptist then searching Jesus more deeply I read and moved to Pentecostal then The Lord les me to the Catholic Church in 1998. I love the Mass and Eucharist. I however still love the Bible, I do not worship idols and deeply object to all the statues and recited prayer. I enjoy and love you talks. Agree in many ways. Thank you, Pastor Gavin
Why do you object to the statues and recited prayer, esp. the statues? I'm not Catholic, but I do love Catholic art. The stained glass, the statues and pictures are beautiful and serene depictions. I don't enjoy the style of Orthodox art though. They aren't serene and there is something austere about their style of artwork that I always found a bit depressing. The Catholic depictions are uplifting though.
@@evanspencer3632 I'm almost sure one of the councils would be anathematising her. Though from what I can tell by all the anathemas, a huge number of practicing Catholics would fall under this curse. It's really a terrible thing that the RCC declared these so much over too many of its sanctioned doctrines.
I feel like I see this kind of thing a lot. I could be misreading what you're saying, but I frequently see those who with Protestant background who have gravitated to Catholicism do so because they crave the structure of liturgy. I can admit to often being underwhelmed by the form of worship practiced in contemporary church environments, but I can't see how this would ever lead me toward stepping into a church environment that teaches such obviously false doctrines that are antithetical to core doctrines as outlined in scripture. To me, simply craving structure is an insufficient basis for embracing a church that not only promotes such doctrines, but anathematizes those who don't. Having spent substantial time in Latin America, I've observed firsthand how pervasive the veneration of images is as an aspect of Catholic practice, with shrines of Mary at the peak of countless mountains. I'm glad you appreciate Dr. Ortlund's analysis of the issue, but to me, from what I've seen, and what we see him saying, this is something that's central, not peripheral, when it comes to Catholic perception of what it means to be devoted in one's religious practice.
@@johnnythegringo8855 You can still get a structured, or high church liturgy on the protestant side too though. Anglicans, Lutherans and Presbyterians all have it. I wonder if it's the claim of apostolic succession and having infallible central doctrine?
This video was very well done and researched! I remember a few years back watching the channel Pints With Aquinas. People like Trent Horn and Jimmy Aiken worked very hard to make Roman Catholicism seem more tenable. I remember many of their answers causing me to become less hypercritical of some of their practices. One day Matt Fradd showed a video of himself at church bowing down to a statue of Mary holding the Infant Jesus and then kissing the statue which really disturbed me (at the time I had no idea Catholics went that far). Needless to say, this video about veneration being an accretion has been extremely helpful in parsing out this topic. I truly appreciate all the citations you quote from early Church fathers and councils. Excellent work sir! 👍🏼
YOU: One day Matt Fradd showed a video of himself at church bowing down to a statue of Mary holding the Infant Jesus and then kissing the statue which really disturbed me (at the time I had no idea Catholics went that far). 😊... what's the problem? If you cannot do as Matt Fradd did, you are not in love with the Lord Jesus and his holy Mother yet. God bless Matt Fradd so much to enable him to show so much love for the Lord and his holy Mother. God bless...
Horn and Akin did it again and there response is rather poor in my opinion, arguing against Sola Scriptura (not the main issue here) and advocating for doctrinal development.
@@For3nityFrom your logic we can conclude that all the apostles and early church fathers are an enemy of Christ! Thank you! I don't take people that argue from emotions seriously
There is one thing about this video I take very seriously, and that is the thumbnail. Question my scholarship all you want, but you cannot deny that my thumbnail carries scholarly gravitas.
ALSO: I respond to some criticism here: ruclips.net/user/postUgkx1VMlzlE9wnLYdZpeuifApMjlrJmEVUsZ
This thumbnail is as close to a non-Scriptural infallible rule of faith we Protestants can muster up!
Here here. Seeing the thumbnail made me quiet myself and steel my nerves before clicking the video, seeing how deeply weighty the matter would be.
(In all reality though, so excited to see your scholarly work! Watching right now!)
The thumbnail makes you look shockingly like William Lane Craig lol
You missed your calling in comedy! 😂
Are we allowed to venerate this thumbnail? 🤔🤣
Great work, Dr. Ortlund!
This was beautiful. I believe your intellect is a gift from God. Thank you for all of your work. I will be looking into purchasing copies of your works. May God bless your soul, my brother in Christ. 🩷
As a Catholic considering Protestantism for several years now, this video was very important for me. Thank you Gavin. I've been doing my best building a defensive case for my Catholic beliefs, but more and more I feel like some of Catholic doctrines are impossible to properly defend, it boils down to appeal to authority of Pope in so many issues... Veneration of images was ALWAYS a hard pill to swallow for me too. I remember being on a Retreat Mass where all participants were asked to venerate an Icon of Mary. Not even Mary herself, but very specifically, her icon, and the prayer that followed was also, very specifically, addressing and asking THE HOLY ICON to answer the prayers. I can not describe how haunting and disturbing was this event for me. I wasn't educated enough to know why what was going on was wrong, but I knew it, I felt it in my heart, in my very soul. I was watching lots of both Catholic and Protestant Apologists on this and other topics that were concerning to me for years, and your channel has been, hands down, the best content for this purpose I've ever seen. Please keep answering these hard questions Gavin. You have no idea how hard it is for us Catholics to find a way out, even if we feel in our gut that we should. These videos are very helpful.
I converted years ago😊
May the Holy Spirit guide you!!
@@theknight8524 from what to what? Also, how did your family react?
I very nearly decided to become Catholic not long ago. I'm massively drawn towards the emphasis on tradition, high-church liturgy, and having a simple way to settle disputes of doctrine. What stopped me was that I couldn't get the idea out of my head, feelings, conscience, whatever one wants to call it, that Christ almost certainly would not want people anathematized and, so, removed from the Church for merely being unable to believe in, say, Mary's perpetual virginity, her assumption, or even her being immaculately conceived. There were a few other issues, but this, I think, was the biggest. How can it be Christ's Church, His body, if man can remove members from it erroneously, especially if such tradition is as authoritative as scripture?
@@Real_LiamOBryan have you ever considered other high church contexts with a structure of authority for setting disputes, but more inclusive and open? Like Anglicans or high Methodist or others? As a Catholic, by far the most powerful asset of protestantism is the freedom of choice. Catholics have no say about anything as far as their fate is concerned. We have to do and believe everything the magisterium teaches. I'm technically not even Catholic anymore for even having the doubts that I have. It's strict to the point of absurdity. It's not the "freedom in Christ" that Jesus promised us for sure.
@@mitromney Yes, I have. My doctrinal beliefs align very closely with conservative sorts of Methodism, and even fairly closely with conservative sorts of Anglicanism. I'm definitely not Lutheran in my beliefs. Still, being relatively close to Catholicism on some doctrines I don't feel 100% Protestant, and definitely not 100% Catholic. I believe that prayer to the saints is acceptable, that the Bishop of Rome should have a primacy of honor, that Sola Scriptura is either false or incomplete, that the dulia/latria distinction is true and useful and, therefore, that worshipping others (such as saints) is acceptable, that there is great importance--necessity even--in unity, that tradition is really important, etc. This is mostly academic for me, unless I choose Catholicism (which seems unlikely to me) or Methodism, because I only have two churches within reasonable travel distance from me, Catholic and low-church Wesleyan (which is a type of Methodist).
By the way, what are your thoughts on whether Jesus would want disbelievers in Marian dogmas removed from the Church?
I suppose another large issue I had is that it seems that the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, which is formal dogma (as far as I know), seems--in part--to directly contradict the writings of Ignatius, not have biblical support (which isn't massively important to me), be influenced by Greek philosophy, and ontologically subordinates The Son to The Father by removing His aseity, making His existence ab alio instead. It says that Christ is eternally (πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων/before all of the ages) begotten, but Ignatius says that The Son is begotten in the flesh and, explicitly, unbegotten in the spirit (Ephesians 7:2).
Those are my two biggest issues. I would love to hear your thoughts on them, if you have any you would like to share.
Easily one of the best Protestant video on youtube
Yet.. .it does not make Protestantism right. It serves purpose of deceiving people into Protestant heresies.
@@johnnyd2383kkkkk kkkk the truth hurts
@@johnnyd2383 image veneration isn’t The Truth bro. It’s paganism.
@@ramichahin2 (Col 1,15) "HE IS THE IMAGE of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." So.. you must be runaway from the movie titled "Dumb & Dumber".
@@johnnyd2383 What does that prove? All it is how Christ is the image of God. This is not the same as icon veneration as defined in Nicea II. Make a better case
Wow I'm so happy I discovered you through your recent debate with Trent Horn. I've been watching a lot of Catholics recently and have been deeply moved by the history of the church, which is (obviously) mostly Catholic. Your defense of protestantism is refreshing in the sense that there is deep rooted love but also dissent from later Catholic practices which seems was the sentiment of the original protestants toward the Catholic Church. Excited to watch more of your videos defending protestantism!
glad to be connected!
Malgré sa bonne volonté, il amalgame les idoles païennes et les représentations du Christ, de la Vierge Marie et des Saints. Dieu sait qui ces images pieuses représentent et, dans sa grande pédagogie, parce-que Il comprend le besoin humain de pouvoir voir et toucher, nous permet de prier avec ces images qui fixent notre attention sur le divin. Dieu a permis l'utisation de signes, de symboles et de sculptures: l'Arche de l'Alliance, le serpent d'airain dans le désert (préfigurant le Christ sur la croix), la croix peintes sur les portes des croyants en Egypte pour signifier à l'ange de la mort d'épargner les habitants de cette maison (les plaies d'Égypte).
Hi, I was considering orthodoxy but was wary of the icons and Mary veneration. Thank you for putting this together and on RUclips. I don’t know why orthodoxy is so attractive to me but now I see that I need to stand guard against the enticement of things like it. Thanks again!
This insistence on the second commandment is Judaizing
The Judaizers were a faction of the Jewish Christians who regarded the Levitical laws of the Old Testament as still binding on Christians.
They for instance, tried to enforce Jewish Sabbath and circumcision upon the Gentile converts.
In Gavin's case, he tries to enforce the second commandment - his interpretation of it - on Christians.
Of course Protestants totally ignore the fourth/Sabbath commandment.
That doesn't work.
"..whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."
James 2:10
What make you of Christian freedom?
Christ freed us from the legalistic aspects of the Law but doubled down on the internal moral law.
@Angismit Mary and icon veneration is something which troubles me also as a pro-orthodox Protestant. HOWEVER, Gavin teaches Calvinism, which means that God is a monster who condemns people to either heaven or hell for his own pleasure, and we have no ability to even alter our fate.
There are ways to reconcile Mary and Icon veneration (Luke 1:48) "For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed", and I've never heard a Protestant call Mary blessed.
But something which is irreconcilable is the predestination to either heaven or hell. Gavin is an incredibly charitable and humble man, but how anyone believes in that doctrine of devils is beyond me.
@@kevinjypiter6445God is holier than you think and man is more wicked than you think. God does not owe anyone mercy or grace. If He never saved a soul from the penalty of their sins, then He would still be just and perfect.
@@kevinjypiter6445 that would be a red herring: many Protestants aren’t Calvinist. We consider the Arminian Protestants brothers and sister, we don’t anathema them from the church like papists and eos do for refusing image veneration.
THIS WAS AMAZING and answers so many of my questions about my greek orthodox friends practice! I appreciate it!!!
Praying for you, Gavin. This has caused quite a stir and dealing with accusations, mischaracterizations, disingenuous interpretations, and lies thrown at you is hard. Especially when in online communities like RUclips, it feels like you are outnumbered and outnumbered = you must be wrong. Be encouraged that you are doing good work, and the hasty responses that have been made to you completely mischaracterize your views and dodge the points made. Most importantly, I'm praying that you are graciously given the strength to fight off the attacks of Satan which tempt you to anger, defensiveness, and pride - may God get the glory!
what a wonderful prayer, thanks. Keep praying, it means a lot!
As an orthodox who has had a big issue with kissing icons and praying to saints from childhood, I thank God for you and your videos. Look at their fruits. Look into how the priests actually conduct themselves in the orthodox countries. Look at their fruits. No one loves money more than an orthodox priest and his wife.
@@mangispangi Is like that in Orthodox countries ? Are you still orthodox ?
@@mangispangi there are greedy people among all sects of christianity. That’s not an argument against veneration of icons.
@Truth Unites ah man, my husband and I had high hopes for you as a rational Protestant. Do you venerate the Bible? If so, then you are worshipping the Bible, which, by your logic, makes an idol out of it. The Word (i.e. Jesus) has existed infinitely longer than the Bible (John 1). The Bible is a gift from God, not God Himself. Similar to demonizing kissing the Bible, your demonizing kissing icons is tantamount to demonizing other gifts from God based on YOUR imperfect wisdom. It's a form of Manichaeism - a terrible heresy that causes grief among the faithful because it misrepresents who God is to His loved ones. By you proclaiming good things as bad, you make yourself into a god, and THAT is what causes you to be an anathma.
Regards,
Dr. Enshala
This is surely one of the most intellectually challenging videos I’ve ever seen. Committed Catholic here, and that commitment’s still standing, but Boy, we’ve got some ‘splainin’ to do.
@johnlittle1993
Peace.
All explaining has been done. I refer you to Nicea II for an explanation on icons. Also- veneration does not equal worship. As the Church, we venerate the Cross of Christ. In essence, it is simply wood, with no real worldly value. However, it was what happened on that cross that makes all the difference. Similarly, the author of this post would not trample upon his Bible or burn it, not because it has great value in and of itself (it's paper and ink and maybe a hard cover), but because of what it represents.
The icon of the so-called "Dark Virgin" is again made of simple materials. But it is believed to have been painted by the Disciple and Evangelist, Luke.
Icons are a window as such, into the life of Christendom. THAT is why they are venerated. Through those windows, the Faithful come to know our Lord in a profound way. Stay the course.
Blessings.
Hey, Bro. Thanks for writing.
I actually did read Nicea II. And I actually did read the Canon where those who do not venerate icons are judged with an anathema. So, at least as far as the plain meaning of those canons is concerned, icon veneration is not optional for Catholics apparently; the legislation makes it mandatory. That process of development is a hard maneuver in my opinion, and I appreciate the resistance, even though I don’t per se judge the use of icons negatively. But maybe you can give me a pointer, because I can’t find it easily myself: since Gavin here says that Nicea II was not ratified by Rome at the time its decrees were promulgated, can you perhaps help me find the later act where it received papal confirmation? I’m interested to see if the confirmation was plenary or partial. Thanks!
@@JohnLittle1993
Peace, brother.
Thank you for the comment, and you are most welcome.
Remember that icon veneration is a respect and recognition of what the icon represents, which are truths of the Faith. That is the reason for the veneration. That same respect has been applied to stained glass windows and statues (and Church buildings for that matter) that depict stories of Salvation History. The idea is that just as we venerate the written Word that tells the story of Salvation History, we also venerate that SAME Holy Story depicted in Sacred Art.
There really isn't a difficult concept to grasp here, as some would make it to be. In the end it comes down to believing and respecting (venerating) Salvation History as it is taught in images and Word.
I will have to look into the acceptance of the Universal Church with regard to the canons. I would say that because Nicea II has not been refuted by the Church as other official gatherings of bishops (the Robber Synod comes to mind), there is at least an implicit acceptance of the Council if, in fact, there isn't an official recognition.
There is more to the story for sure.
Blessings.
@@JD-sj1znHi.
When you say "all explaining has been done", do you mean that all of the guy in the video's points have been debunked? If so, where can I find all of the debunks?
@@IntimidatingSnailTrent horn has debunked this a couple of times
I am pro-orthodox but this brother is dropping bombs in this video, I am very taken back by this information. I am protestant but have been swaying more and more towards Orthodoxy over the years but I can't deny that this video is very powerful in regards to the use of icons. I do not see how this can be refuted by anyone, it is very well sourced.
There is still a problem that even if you don’t have physical images, you always have mental images. I think the problem isn’t as simple as looking at the history seeing some things you don’t like, interpreting some texts in a very particular way and concluding it was wrong. I also think it is quite idealistic to believe art was ‘just for decorative and educational purpose’.
@@brambes1804I’ve thought the same thing. Since the illiteracy rate was so high in that time. Art was used to tell the story. I don’t see why having religious art back then is proof of icon veneration
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
@@culpepper7665 Gavin just reponded.
@@brambes1804 One can according to EO theology not have mental images. And from personal experience it is quite a simple thing to pray without picturing the Lord or the Heavens or anything like it. It's not idealistic. It fits the best evidence of the intention of the Christian leaders. Whether some ill-informed person decided to venerate the art as a relic of his former pagan practice is not particularly relevant.
Dr. Ortlund, i have always loved your videos even if I'm quite a bit more liberal than you on several issues (I'm Episcopalian). But this has got to be your best presentation yet.
Like a lot of people in the West I have long had this vague sense that Orthodoxy was "closer" to early Christianity than other Christian branches, and that Orthodoxy had remained essentially unchanged since ancient times. (As an Episcopalian I would add that "unchanging" is not always a good thing!) But i must thank you for exploding that ignorant assumption of mine. Icon veneration is indeed quite clearly a provable doctrinal change.
Ex Orthodox here, thanks for your insightful information 👍 👏 👌
I see Protestantism as a pursuit of the truth not a pursuit of one’s own private judgment. Protestants DO acquiesce to something: The leading of the Holy Spirit as found in the Word of God. (John 17:17)
Protestantism, the pursuit of truth that leads to 40,000 different conclusions...
Yes except that’s nonsense and just another way of saying “my opinion.” Ever noticed every single branch of Protestantism claims they have the holy spiritual leading them to truth but all claim different things? It’s because that’s a nonsensical claim people use to act like whatever they personally believe the text says, based on their opinion was from the Holy Spirit and therefore right
With all due respect, how can that statement coexist with so many divisions, and not just on "the small things"
There are major divides on eternal security, baptism, whether Catholics are Christians, etc.
Hard to explain the Spirit leading into thousands of denominations. Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
"I see Protestantism as a pursuit of the truth not a pursuit of one’s own private judgment. "
Protestant is built with Sola Scriptura as its foundation, who's 16th centuries fruit was, is, and shall ever be, doctrinal chaos, confusion and division. The pursuit of truth completely elusive as it's foundation by definition is one's private, fallible and unauthoritative interpretation of scripture. Yet Christ himself made numerous promises regarding the Truth:
Christ is the head of his Church (Col 1: 18)
Christ''s Church is the pillar of truth (1 Tim 3: 15)
Christ's Church is the bulwark of truth. (1 Tim 3: 15)
Christ's Church is where the manifold wisdom of God is made known. (Eph 3: 10)
*Christ PROMISED to lead it to ALL Truth.* (Jn 16: 13)
Christ PROMISED that he would NEVER leave it. (Mt 28: 20)
Christ PROMISED that the gates of hell would not prevail (it will not teach doctrinal error) ; (Mt 16: 18)
Why not trust Christ?
Wow. What a well compiled and well organized presentation. Excellent work!
Thanks for watching!
What good is organized presentation if he is wrong?
@@joseonwalking8666 This is not a response. Just saying "wrong" is not an argument of any substance.
@@matthew7491 I'm not going to spend hours refuting the broader message in the video. Others have done that work adnausem. Something Gavin continues to dodge btw.
I doubt even if I did spend the hours to collect all relevant information you'd even bother reading it.
@@joseonwalking8666 His research is very extensive. What is he dodging? I do as in honest Christian curiosity, because i don't see it
This was incredibly educational and worth every minute. Thank you, Sir!
I have to admit, you make a very good argument that not only wowed but challenged my own faith. Too often do we hear from Catholics and Orthodox saying that the veneration of iconography was historical. Per your research, that is simply not the case.
I think the opposition to the veneration of icons is a Judaizing artefact rather than a mandate of the Christian faith because Christian Freedom dispensed with it.
Many of the early Christians had that Jewish iconoclasm imbedded in their faith practice even though they were free of the Law.
Compare that to how many early Christians were against doing away with the 4th Commandment, namely “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy" for obvious reasons. The Law said the observance was for eternity.
Observing the Sabbath was even more foundational in Judaism than the issue of images.
Christ never mentioned doing away with the Sabbath. He followed the Sabbath.
Yet, the Church, which are the apostles and the believers, mandated that the that observance was not needed and the "new" day of worship was Sunday.
What gall, what usurpation of power if they did not have the Lord's delegated authority.
But the Church DID AND DOES HAVE Christ's delegated authority.
The Church declaring the veneration of icons as licit makes official what Christian Freedom allowed all along.
That the Church figures Gavin quoted retained certain Judaizing sentiments does not mean that Christian Freedom was no longer in operation.
Church figures come and go, each shaped by their milieu and their outlooks stamped with the prevailing issues of the day but it is the Church that bears Christ's promise, eternally joined to Him, inseparable.
It is the Church that moves through history and will do so in eternity.
@@AL_YZ This is a great observation. I really think there should be freedom in Christ and conscience for this. I think it may be a mistake to mandate veneration of icons, and a mistake to disallow the veneration of icons. There are a lot of issues in Romans 12-15 about freedom of conscience that sometimes gets lost in the tradition, either through unnecessary proscription or enforced prescription. If the Protestant movement can do one thing, I hope it's not the overthrowing of tradition, but the reintroduction to freedom of conscience on some of these traditions. But if freedom of conscience swings the opposite direction into condemnation of tradition, it just is repeating similar errors.
@@jonathananstett784 For a Roman Catholic, Christian Freedom prevails UNTIL the Church makes a definitive declaration of dogma after which the matter is settled.
For instance, prior to the canon being finalized, there was back and forth as to which books were included, even among the fathers. But after a consensus is reached within the Church, questioning the canon was no longer an option.
The working out of defined doctrines within the Church is often a contentious process over centuries sometimes - like finalizing the canon. For the RC, it is not just a pope unilaterally deciding this or that.
Regarding the decree to compel veneration of icons, that was a very specific response to the intense battles - theological and political - which involved the powers of the day. It really tore through the Church of the time. It was authoritative but time-bound in practice. Like the issue of the Jewish Sabbath observance I mentioned, that was settled by the Church.
So no-one has compelled anyone for the longest time ever since the iconoclastic controversies were over a thousand years ago. The Church had declared that the veneration of icons is licit and that is settled. Most RC are not even aware it was part of a recognized ecumenical council.
@@jonathananstett784
Fr oma Roman Catholic point of view, Christian Freedom prevails UNTIL the Church makes a definitive declaration of dogma after which the matter is settled.
For instance, prior to the canon being finalized, there was back and forth as to which books were included, even among the fathers. But after a consensus is reached within the Church, questioning the canon was no longer an option. Same with the Sabbath.
The working out of defined doctrines within the Church is often a contentious process over centuries sometimes - like finalizing the canon. Why so messy? Because Christ chose to deputize flesh and blood people to be His church and to teach His Word. He did not promise a new set of scriptures as a stand-alone guide that anyone can build their church around.
The bible was written by the singular Church of Christ for the Church.
He promised to abide with His church as it marches through history to the end of time.
For the RC then, it is not just a pope unilaterally deciding this or that. So this present Pope with his problematic statements is a transient slice of time while the Church that Christ left behind is everlasting.
Regarding the decree to compel veneration of icons, that was a very specific response to the intense battles - theological and political - which involved the powers of the day. It really tore through the Church of the time.
It was authoritative but time-bound in practice.
So no-one has compelled anyone for the longest time ever since the iconoclastic controversies were over a thousand years ago. The Church had declared that the veneration of icons is licit and the matter is settled. Most RC are not even aware it was part of a recognized ecumenical council.
@@AL_YZWe could use this argument for anything though, we could argue that the church politics, elders, fathers, priests, bishops, etc. are ALL against judaizers, and that christian freedom has done away with it.
Why not? We can all agree a major reason for the very first politics of the church was not meant to be permanent, otherwise it would still exist as it was(it does not).
The political structure of the church has changed much since the book of Acts, even since the days of the fathers, and as seen by Paul and Peter, much of what the apostles did was to stop judaizers. So who is Rome, who is Alexandria, who is Antioch to say we have freedom to overcome the prohibition on icon veneration?
Thorough Indeed. And deep in history. Loved this episode!
Superb historical and biblical overview and analysis. Thank you.
All of this. I’ve had the same feelings and thoughts but did not organize or research as well as you. Thank you.
Amazing explanation of icons!. Thank you so much for sharing your time , expertise and research on this subject. I have great tools to talk to my son that is convinced about becoming an Orthodox and of course justifying icon devotion. God bless you and keep pouring His blessings over you!!
Glad it was helpful!
I’ve always been a Protestant that wanted to convert to Catholicism with my friends or Orthodox. But every time I started to dig deeper into it I realized I just like the sincerity of the aesthetics of those churches and the quietness of heart that they invoke when you enter them. Even the discipline of the rosary seemed like a helpful tool for my wandering mind. BUT I never converted and have realized I am as Protestant as they come. When I read the Bible and gospels Catholicism and Orthodoxy just seemed so far away from the flavor of the simple purity of the New Testament. To top it off I’m an artist and I have always struggled with the purpose of my art and Christian art and afraid of creating idol like images. I’m very wary of it and continually have to ask God why he gave me this gift and its highest purpose, how to use it for him without it becoming more than that.
Spot on and AMEN! 🎯🏆Excellently documented and gracefully delivered! Thanks for all of your hard work!🙏📖
Thank you! That was certainly a thorough job.
Thank you for the thorough historical and scholarly explanations. Very informative and respectful.
Wow, after this I am seriously considering taking the Protestant reformation seriously, currently an Orthodox catechumen, I realized lately that I didn't give Protestantism an honest enough consideration so I watched this video. I had a large misconception that Protestantism had no patristic backing, thank you for this video!
may the Lord guide you and direct you
I'm Jewish now but I respect Lutheranism and Anglicanism as the middle ground of Christianity.
How is this free?! So well done. I am very impressed. Thank you for laying it all out for us. Blessings, brother.
The canon he quotes are from catholic post schism and not Orthodox. He’s giving a bias perspective not even from the original council. Ask yourself how many countries were invaded by Protestants and Catholics and how many cultures were decimated then ask yourself how many times the Orthodox committed such acts. You will know them by their fruits.
@@PatronSaintSpyridon
Peace.
Your history is a bit skewed to say the least. The Orthodox were part of the Crusades, and were responsible for the Massacre of the Latins prior to the Sack of Constantinople. The Orthodox also murdered the wife of Manuel I Komnenos, their own empress. Please...
AND the Canon was set at the Council of Hippo in 393. That same canon the Catholic Church uses today. It is the Orthodox who are in schism since they are NOT in union with Peter (see Mt 16:16), and establish their own Apostolic missions and juristictions apart from Peter.
I pray that one day we can be one, as Christ is One.
@@JD-sj1zn The Orthodox, as Pope John Paul II stated clearly, have most dutifully kept to the authentic traditions of the Apostles - we have never been in Schism as your excommunication in 1054 was invalid, but since then your See has clearly walked away from the rest of the Church and has caused so much trouble with innovation that Protestantism is squarely your responsibility. Do not throw stones in your own glass house.
@@dankmartin6510
?.
@@dankmartin6510
Not being in union with Peter is schism. Setting up Apostolic missions and jurisdictions apart from Peter is schism. Teaching a doctrine apart from 1000 yrs of Tradition with regard to the Keys is schismatic- the very definition of schism. Study your revered Saints who all were in union with Peter BEFORE you throw your stones, sir.
Thanks Dr. Ortlund,
this is one of your best videos so far.
Thank you for being loving yet at the same time telling the truth. Also thank you, for being very professional in your quotations, one can see, that you truly don’t try to misrepresent anyone and that you do both, following your conscience and staying true to church history. 😊
This isn't true to history - it's a terrible example of lack of understanding about idolatry. If you venerate your Bible, are you guilty of idolatry? You can't venerate the Bible without providing for an allowance to venerate the cross, icons, people, or any other sanctified offering to God or gift from God. It's tantamount to Manichaeism, which is a heresy that material things are intrinsically evil. Any material thing can be made into an idol - so people driven by pride declared all material things evil. That's a heresy. Same thing with Icons.
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
Brilliant Gavin ! Your biblical standpoint makes all things clear .
You and Dr. Steven Nemes are what really helped me move from Catholicism back to Protestantism. Thank you.
Steven Nemes, who denies the personhood of the Holy Spirit?
@@timee3221 I don't agree with him on the Trinity but he does make great arguments for Protestantism.
@David Avery hahaha
@@1984SheepDog ?
Nemes isn't even a Christian anymore, it's quite regrettable.
Informative, thank you! When you wrapped it up with the Gospel, I couldn't help but say AMEN.
Brubaker (author) - it's a purple coloured book
I have never seen a more even-handed and objective report on the questions surrounding icon veneration. I enter this as part of my research into Orthodox understandings and practices because I have Orthodox friends I love and want to understand. I watch their Orthodox videos done by some well-educated and clear-teaching priests. I've seen those priests use the language Dr. Ortlund attributes to them, which elevates my confidence in Dr. Ortlund as he does not mock or mischaracterize them. Thank you, Dr. Ortlund, for being gracious and sharing these scholarly videos with those of us who are seeking the truth.
Very well spoken. You speak truth firmly but graciously. By far the best presentation of this subject I have listened to.
If I may add to the conversation. Even God Himself commanded images to be made - the statues of cherubim that go on either side of the tabernacle and the bronze serpent (which when people looked at it, they were healed from their snake bites) to name a couple.
God made us to be body AND spirit, not just spirit. As such, the LORD comes to us in both spiritual and physical ways. Think of Jesus - He healed by His Word, and by mixing His saliva with dirt and putting it on a man's eyes. He gave large crowds bread and fish to keep them sustained. A woman was healed through touching the tassel of His cloak. He physically died on the Cross for us. He instituted the Eucharist - we get to actually receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus, truly Present in the Eucharist, into our bodies. Wow! What an amazing gift.
God made us with bodies, and He declared it very good. Our bodies are not bad. Images are not banned - graven images are. Looking at/having an image of Jesus is not only not harmful, it's powerful and beautiful! I encourage you to look into the Catholic Faith - good resources can be found on Ascension Presents (RUclips, the Ascension App) and Catholic Answers (website and RUclips). God bless!
- A Catholic Christian
Fascinating and clearly presented! Thanks
Thanks for the video! You presented it very charitable and truthful. That’s true, this alone will make one Protestant!
I don't think this video will make a person protestant. A person that does not think the Bible is infallible or even correct, will not suddenly think:
Oh, icon veneration is an accretion, I should be a protestant Christian.
I agree with Trent Horn on that point. For protestantism to be true Protestant claims need to be proven, disproving catholic/orthodox claims does not do that.
@@georgwagner937Protestantism doesn’t have to be proven true, all it does is rely on the Bible. All we care about is that the Bible is true. And yeah, that can definitely cause differences in belief and practice, but not in orthodox beliefs - those are not “Christian.”
But if we disprove Catholicism / Orthodoxy, that is, any of the “infallible” portions, the whole point of authority falls. Therefore, the church is not the only authority. And those who disagree with the authority are… drum roll… protesters. Or, Protestants.
So if you want to be a Christian, but reject the Catholic / Orthodox views, you can easily be a Protestant.
Anyways, I am not against Catholic / Orthodox Christians. But I don’t think their authority as the only church (not necessarily “true,” - I think all three branches are true) is accurate.
@@manxydom9879if orthodoxy isn’t true than Christianity isn’t. I’m sorry but that’s just the truth.
@@Tornadospeed10Asserting that if orthodoxy is false means that Christianity is false is just that - an assertion.
Anyways, I never said orthodoxy or the Orthodox Church wasn’t true. I think it is. I don’t think it is infallible in every aspect though.
For example, the assumption of Mary could have never happened, and the Orthodox Church would still be true.
Fallible men stating that something is true when it isn’t doesn’t stop the scripture from remaining true. I’m not saying all traditions outside the Bible are false, but I think some are false.
@@Tornadospeed10 As a former oriental orthodox from the cradle for 4 decades and presently baptist, I find your claims laughable :D
I'm a new-ish Christian. When I recently came across EO I became enthralled with the idea of it being the original church and its beautiful ceremonies. But as I've been researching EO over the past month or so, I paused when I became aware of the venerations of saints. The book of Judges makes it clear that mankind has a propensity for worshipping things and other people, and makes it VERY clear this does not please the LORD! Twenty minutes into this video has cleared this all up for me (I watched the whole thing though) and has ended my romance with EO. Thank you!
I’ve been on the same journey, and feel as though this video has served the same purpose for me as well. Thank you, Gavin, for quite literally doing The Lord’s work.
I did the same thing last year when I was only a few months into my walk with Christ. Now after almost 2 years, I've been regularly attending an Orthodox Parish for about a month and I love it. It's very common within the Protestant world to get hung up on the idea that since Christ is the only mediator between God and man - our spiritual lives are a individual, single-line connection between us and God. Orthodoxy sees things differently. We believe that God's grace is superabundant it flows out through the ones He has glorified - the saints, and especially through His mother, by whose obedience bore the One who would conquer death and reconcile us to God. Our worship is reserved for God alone, but we recognize that His grace pours out into those people in our lives, both those here on earth, and those who reside in the heavenly kingdom, and that we can call on them to be vessels of the grace that has it source in Him alone. Also is God not "over all, in all and through all."? (Ephesians 4)
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
it is not warshipping, it is veneration. You have to do more research, your understanding is lacking
@@ssseth9321how does one become a vessel of unmerited favor? How can unmerited favor be carried like water or cargo? We can surely supply it to others from ourselves, but how can we carry it on behalf of another?
And I would suggest Christ being our only mediator is literally what the scripture teaches. One can participate in a spiritual life with others while only having one mediator.
Thank you for putting so much effort into this historical and scriptural workout. I really profit from it. May God bless you in all your work!
Outstanding and informative video. Thank you for taking the time to create this content. God bless
As a Presbyterian thinking through my traditions beliefs on icons this was incredibly helpful thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
I know fruits of the spirit is patience. But I don't know why for the life of me I can't stand the waffling on this issue for people that were never compelled to worship these images. A wicked and adulterous generation demands a sign. Why does one have to convince oneself that they are in true worship with the aide of art and images, smells and ancient relics? That is a pagan inclination.
If you're against icons I assume you're also against having crucifixes exist. Or nativity scenes at Christmas.
@medotaku9360 other than being used as a sign or a symbol, what does a crucifix get its power from ans why should u pray to it?
@@Vanpotheosisyes. I do not approve of nativity scenes and crucifixes (and I mean crucifixes specifically, not crosses. Crucifixes being a cross with a depiction of Christ on it. I say this for those who might not know the difference).
Dr Ortlund, I've been following your RUclips channel for a couple of years now and you've made a lot of great videos but I've got to say that this one is, hands down, the best you've ever done.
Wow, thanks!
Agreed.
@@TruthUnites This video came at the perfect time, because I’m going to be debating an Eastern Orthodox priest at the end of the month about whether prayer to Mary and the scenes, and their images and icons, are a form of worship or not. While we may not really get deep into the veneration of images, the focus is going to be on veneration of Mary and the Saints themselves. Do you have a video that focuses specifically on that? I’m planning on watching this video in the meantime. God bless you and your ministry as always Dr. Ortlund, 👍
Agreed!
Dr. Ortlund can you do on video on Theological Method, yours specifically? This video was helpful, scholarly an d highly persuasive.
Woah, this is beautiful Spirit led biblical based discussion... This is what I'm looking for!
Super helpful, especially by giving us specific texts from ante-Nicean fathers. THAT's the tradition I wish to follow.
Fantastically put. Wonderfully detailed with all the important info
Glad it helped!
The RCC not following the 2nd commandment made me question the Roman Catholic Church. My relationship with God has become stronger and clear since I have turned to following God's word!
You demand that the RCC observe the second commandment:
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above."
(Actually, no one observes that.
You interpret it loosely based on your own authority and even Gavin does not prohibit images as such but rather with veneration of images.
Now, Muslims. THEY are really observant of that prohibition.)
Yet if you are like the vast majority of protestants, you do not observe the 4th, the Sabbath.
The 4th Commandment: "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy"
That is supposed to be forever hence the Jews to this day.
In fact, the observance of the Sabbath is even more foundational to Judaism.
Jesus Christ observed the Sabbath.
You know who made the day of worship the first day of the week (Sunday) instead of the Sabbath?
The Church.
If the Church did not have the authority to basically cross out the 4th commandment, then you are in deep trouble.
Because you know that to not observe one part is to fail to observe the entirety of the law.
“For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all." (James 2:10-11)
What make you of Christian Freedom which frees Christians from the strictures of the Law?
You and Gavin are Judaizing.- requiring observance of a Jewish prohibition.
Amen!!! Me too
@@heather602 Do you observe the 3rd/4th commandment?
The 4th Commandment: "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy."
Not Sunday. The Sabbath.
@@AL_YZ I follow Jesus
Peace.
How exactly does the "Church" not follow the Second(First) commandment? And the implication that you did not have God's Word or that you couldn't follow it while IN the Church makes one question in what "church" you were.
And as an aside, Sola Scriptura is not taught in the Bible, (and no, not even in 2Tim). But, if you are interested in learning the answers to the questions that were not answered for you, I am here.
Blessings.
What an awesome video. I knew next to nothing about this topic yesterday and now I feel like I know so much, yet I’ve barely scratched the surface of how much knowledge there is on the topic. I feel like so much knowledge is knowing what you don’t know
Thank you Dr Ortlund, a remarkable and useful video!
Amen. Great teaching and did with facts, love, and conviction. May God continue to bless you, your family, and your ministry.
If I may add to the conversation. Even God Himself commanded images to be made - the statues of cherubim that go on either side of the tabernacle and the bronze serpent (which when people looked at it, they were healed from their snake bites) to name a couple.
God made us to be body AND spirit, not just spirit. As such, the LORD comes to us in both spiritual and physical ways. Think of Jesus - He healed by His Word, and by mixing His saliva with dirt and putting it on a man's eyes. He gave large crowds bread and fish to keep them sustained. A woman was healed through touching the tassel of His cloak. He physically died on the Cross for us. He instituted the Eucharist - we get to actually receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus, truly Present in the Eucharist, into our bodies. Wow! What an amazing gift!
God made us with bodies, and He declared it very good. Our bodies are not bad. Images are not banned - graven images are. Looking at/having an image of Jesus is not only not harmful, it's powerful and beautiful! I encourage you to look into the Catholic Faith - good resources can be found on Ascension Presents (RUclips, the Ascension App) and Catholic Answers (website and RUclips). God bless!
- A Catholic Christian
Good Job Gavin! Everyone on the internet has now commented on this video.
Yes, everyone is commenting on it because it is astonishing that in this day and age, there are still iconoclasts. Unbelievable. Why are you so excited about this? Is this your way of living boldly for Christ?
THANK YOU for another insightful and clarifying episode! We all need to strive and walk a Biblical Faith!
Blessings to you and your family!🇨🇦☺🇨🇦
Hi Shelley! If I may add to the conversation. Even God Himself commanded images to be made - the statues of cherubim that go on either side of the tabernacle and the bronze serpent (which when people looked at it, they were healed from their snake bites) to name a couple.
God made us to be body AND spirit, not just spirit. As such, the LORD comes to us in both spiritual and physical ways. Think of Jesus - He healed by His Word, and by mixing His saliva with dirt and putting it on a man's eyes. He gave large crowds bread and fish to keep them sustained. A woman was healed through touching the tassel of His cloak. He physically died on the Cross for us. He instituted the Eucharist - we get to actually receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus, truly Present in the Eucharist, into our bodies. Wow! What an amazing gift.
God made us with bodies, and He declared it very good. Our bodies are not bad. Images are not banned - graven images are. Looking at/having an image of Jesus is not only not harmful, it's powerful and beautiful! I encourage you to look into the Catholic Faith - good resources can be found on Ascension Presents (RUclips, the Ascension App) and Catholic Answers (website and RUclips). God bless!
- A Catholic Christian
You are making me think. Thank you for that.
Thanks so much for addressing this with so much documentation. I was once led astray by arguments in favor of icon veneration but I have to admit I could never fully embrace it at the heart or conscience level. Although I know that many who are in favor of icon veneration will have a comeback for everything you’ve presented and that they will ultimately appeal to the “consensus of the fathers” and to their ecclesiology, I am convinced they have erred on this subject. Thanks for speaking the truth in love.
Thanks Will, glad you found this useful!
@@TruthUnites ruclips.net/video/7EH_CoysXW8/видео.html
....you don't understand what you attack.
Gavin ortlund, thank you for the video! Should I destroy icons or statues of Jesus? I am confused of the proper Biblical stance. Should I keep a picture of Christ? I do not venerate them but it is decorative/a reminder of Christ.
@@michaelwhitman9937
If you believe they’re a 2 commandment violation, you could. If they lead you astray to worship them, destroy them as Hezekiah destroyed the Bronze Serpent (2 Kings 18:4).
@@michaelwhitman9937at's between you and God. If it starts affecting you then put them away. I grew up near a Catholic lady's house that had giant crosses everywhere and crowds would gather on Friday 13th because visions of Mary would appear to her. That's the context I have with icons and saints. To me, crosses and pictures should be considered like a flag or logo. You wouldn't set fire to your country's flag but you're not gonna build an altar to it. I personally don't want a cross in my room but on a Bible or Christian phone app, or in church is fine.
As a Protestant enquiring into Orthodoxy, the dogma surrounding icon veneration arising from the Seventh Ecumenical Council has been a significant barrier to entry. I've actually grown to admire the practice of icon veneration, and see how it could add value to a Christian's life. But I can't see myself agreeing that it is a necessity for sanctification/theosis, or that any Christian failing to venerate icons is anathema to the Church. I was initially drawn to EO because I thought it preserved the liturgy and worship that Christ taught the apostles, but I have found the arguments for 1st century icon veneration to be severely lacking. Thanks for all you do, looking forward to watching this!
Thank for sharing, hope the video is useful!
Think hard and very carefully before you make that leap. My son and cycled through the EO church. I was excommunicated shortly after my baptism, and drove 16 hours one way to see the bishop about it. He wasn't overly concerned,. So I got my critical thinking cap back on, and soon saw EO for what it is- a remnant of the church of Constantine. Once you ask the right questions, and look for biblical answers, you will see that the EO church is a false church. Here is a simple question. How are local churches governed in the NT. By a separate priestly caste? Or by elders/ pastors? That we are adopted sons and daughters of God under the new covenant is key to understanding the differences. I have attempted to communicate with my former priests since I returned to Protestantism (I am Baptist) and have received only one response: they will only talk with me once I return to the EO church, and not otherwise. They have been good for their word. So much for the love of Christ, eh?
@@1Immanuel8 I don't think that it's a false church - the question for me is whether it alone is the "One True Church". Out of curiosity - why were you excommunicated shortly after your baptism?
@@nathanielchristian7027 I inquired into Orthodoxy for a year. The main question is if you believe it is the only One True Church, like you said. I could never believe that. I've seen the fruit of the spirit in many other churches, and claims your church is the only one is always based on very shaky epistemology at best. Just reeks of institutional propaganda to me. I'm now very happily Anglican, we take the most reasonable answer to that question.
You should study the history of liturgy and look at the scholarly works on Reformed worship. Then you won't be fooled by EO claims.
This was great. I'm reading up on my Protestant history and it is really eye-opening. Ancient history is one of those areas you need to actually have the language chops for though, so I'm glad this is available.
Martin Luther sure did made a big old mess. His teaching deceived millions who have absolutely no clue as to how their religion was formed an alcoholic mentally unstable Catholic priest that hated the Jew, mocked the word of God, and broke his vows. I bet 99% of all Protestants have never read his sermon "The Jews & his Lies". All Protestant Churches and denomination can be traced directly to either Horny King Henry the 8th who broke off from the Catholic Church to commit adultery, or to Luther the drunk. And while we're at it, the vast majority Protestants couldn't tell you where the Bible came from to save their lives. Yet these trolls think they are Masters of Scripture & the only ones that are saved. Don't believe me? Read their comments.
If I may add to the conversation. Even God Himself commanded images to be made - the statues of cherubim that go on either side of the tabernacle and the bronze serpent (which when people looked at it, they were healed from their snake bites) to name a couple.
God made us to be body AND spirit, not just spirit. As such, the LORD comes to us in both spiritual and physical ways. Think of Jesus - He healed by His Word, and by mixing His saliva with dirt and putting it on a man's eyes. He gave large crowds bread and fish to keep them sustained. A woman was healed through touching the tassel of His cloak. He physically died on the Cross for us. He instituted the Eucharist - we get to actually receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus, truly Present in the Eucharist, into our bodies. Wow! What an amazing gift.
God made us with bodies, and He declared it very good. Our bodies are not bad. Images are not banned - graven images are. Looking at/having an image of Jesus is not only not harmful, it's powerful and beautiful! I encourage you to look into the Catholic Faith - good resources can be found on Ascension Presents (RUclips, the Ascension App) and Catholic Answers (website and RUclips). God bless!
- A Catholic Christian
This was so thorough for an *hour video I'm so impressed
Watch his interview with ex Orthodox priest
@@theknight8524 I did! It was his first-ever video I watched
Gavin, I love the manner in which you speak, and I must add, I really did enjoy hearing you speak with an extra tone of boldness in this video. It was great. Keep up the good work. These videos are always worth listening to.
WELP! I was seriously considering Orthodoxy, but this was extremely insightful into this issue which was ONE of the big ones preventing me from changing to it. Wow... great video, Gavin
Keep considering. I was baptized Orthodox in October after 6 years of reading and praying. It is the Church. God bless you.
@@kevinfernandez9999 and Gavin’s response to it
Read St. John of Damascus writings (and the story of his life) and the writings of St. Theodore the Studite on the matter of iconography.
Look up events surrounding the Hawaiian icon of the Theotokos of Iveron and Kursk root icon.
The lives of the Orthodox Saints are key in helping to understand these matters. (Emphasizing the importance of the lived experience of the life of the Church in the Saints throughout history. - the Gospel lived out in the lives of the Saints.)
Keep going Peter, slow and steady.
Well, I hope you get to receive Jesus' Body and Blood one day. There really isn't anything like it. The Sacramental life is really an amazing one.
@@kevinfernandez9999Trent is a joke when it comes to being a catholic apologist and being anti protestant
I respect this man, he is humble a respectful kn presenting his arguments, unlike most people intuese comments.
Im not educated well enough to argue or try to prove any points in these comments.
I was brought up with exposure to both Catholicism and protestantism, one aide of family was one, themother side the other.
I just want to say my favorite olace to worship is churches usually in downtown, more run dinw area churches with the huge vaulted ceilings, staine x glass windows, the statues. The beautiful art on those ceiling, and yes, statues. I feel so close to God in those beautiful old Catholic churches I dont worship the statues. I dont think many peope have actually visited the places they speak out against so much. Just my opinion
Gavin! Tremendous work on putting this video together. You have challenged and given me (an orthodox Inquirer) much to think about.
I would be very interested in listening in on a conversation between you and Jonathan Pageau about the symbolism and use of Iconography. From watching him speak on the matter, I feel that I have learned that the reason for appealing to the saints for forgiveness and other matters, as opposed to directly receiving from the hands of God is because of the participatory nature of God's Kingdom. It is not that we need their mediation but that Saints are welcomed to participate in "the divine council" and other roles as an act of God's love. In this way, love ascends up and back down the hierarchy in a beautiful harmonious fashion that unites Heaven and Earth. Veneration of the Icon allows us to enter this reality and one that is more truly understood through experience. I have found this idea of "participation" most powerfully expressed in the theme of the Son of Man, Genesis, and the biblical narrative as a whole.
To be honest the info presented here is causing much cognitive dissonance and doubt. I have many experiences that tell me that venerating icons is a beautiful thing but cannot deny the alarming info presented here. In moments like this I find the only thing I can turn to is Christ in prayer. Should I set my home icon of Christ and the saints aside despite it helping orient my life around Him? I don't know the answer to that. I have been telling myself that the fruits of the spirit would be my litmus test for truth. In other words, has God made me more like him or less through communing with the saints? I am still waiting to see. Perhaps Idolatry has more to do with the heart then the action. I pray for discernment and ask that you would pray for me too.
Thank you for your faithfulness.
Thanks Matthew, may the Lord guide you and direct you!
Yes, I too would love to see a discussion between Ortland and Pageau!
You don’t need to remove the icons in your home, religious art can Be greatly edifying. The difference is whether we use art for devotion or for actual worship and for the liturgy
Hi Matthew! If I may add to the conversation. Even God Himself commanded images to be made - the statues of cherubim that go on either side of the tabernacle and the bronze serpent (which when people looked at it, they were healed from their snake bites) to name a couple.
God made us to be body AND spirit, not just spirit. As such, the LORD comes to us in both spiritual and physical ways. Think of Jesus - He healed by His Word, and by mixing His saliva with dirt and putting it on a man's eyes. He gave large crowds bread and fish to keep them sustained. A woman was healed through touching the tassel of His cloak. He physically died on the Cross for us. He instituted the Eucharist - we get to actually receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus, truly Present in the Eucharist, into our bodies. Wow! What an amazing gift.
God made us with bodies, and He declared it very good. Our bodies are not bad. Images are not banned - graven images are. Looking at/having an image of Jesus is not only not harmful, it's powerful and beautiful! I encourage you to look into the Catholic Faith - good resources can be found on Ascension Presents (RUclips, the Ascension App) and Catholic Answers (website and RUclips). God bless!
- A Catholic Christian
You forgot to mention that once people started praying to the bronze serpent the king destroyed it and God praised it....
I absolutely LOVE this summary on this issue. It is extremely well stated and clearly explained in this video. Keep up the great work!
Thanks, glad you found it helpful!
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
Thankyou for this. It is alot of information. I will need to watch this a few times more.
This video is super well done. Excellent and accurate work.
Very impressive video Gavin. One of your best!
Thanks Andrew!
Wow! What a comprehensive and incredible compilation of evidence and arguments. This was very thought-provoking. 🤔
Thank you for this excellent and thorough explanation!
Could you do a video on what is biblical worship?
Excellent presentation, clear and concise. Thank you so much!
God bless you Gavin your a Blessing and a Help to keep growing in knowledge of The Lord and for protestatism
I have known the position of the early church and in scripture on this matter for a long time. To hear a scholarly presentation of how we arrived from there to here is quite educational, thank you.
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
@@culpepper7665 I think the second commandment and the whole reason Israel was extinguished in ancient times says it all
@@christianperspective9527 All that is addressed in the videos I referenced. Simply offering a much deeper dive into the topic than Gavin has put forth for those interested.
@TruthUnites thank you for this video. It's very informative.
Although I respect people who prefer a Protestant path, my christian life bloomed when I joined the Orthodox Church. Icons are central in my worship. Like music and Liturgy. I worship the Father , Son and Holy Spirit-that’s it. Don’t understand the confusion.
adopted pagan practice. welp
The true church is the Bible believing church, not a church that puts their traditions above the Holy Bible, “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.”◄ Exodus 20:4
@@findev6330 And then God commands that images of Cherubim be made on the ark a few verses later...
@@findev6330 The true church is the church established by Christ, beginning with Pentecost in 33 AD, which is the Orthodox. The Bible was not canonized until your 397AD..Christians existed well before that. Tradition precedes the Bible, but is not superior to it. The Bible must be interpreted within the context of tradition, that's how you avoid many heresies and liberal nonsense that non-denominational and mega churches fall for.
@@LaRevolution0 The church that hid the Bible for a thousand years and burned people alive for owning the scripture in their native language has truth, don’t make me laugh!
Just wanted to say this has been a great channel. It has caused me to question why I believe what I believe. At the outset this is a scary thing it has caused me to look deeper at church history, the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and the reformation. It is all so much deeper and more complicated than I ever thought.
glad its been helpful and thanks for having an open mind and heart!
read what I wrote. Funny, Im the opposite
It turns out the RCC and EO are being ahistorical interesting; they traditions are in fact hardly apostolic and had to “develop” and more often than not unbiblical
Definitely can relate to this!!! blessings
@@BryceCarmony Where did Jesus say that?
This overview of examples of early church interaction was brilliant and enlightening in bringing forth truth. a must watch for all Christians.
Incredible work sir, thank you and my the LORD continue to bless. I have been interacting with Catholic friends and acquaintances more on these issues and appreciate your thoughtful approach to these very deep doctrinal divides.
This and the Marian dogmas are the primary issues that prevented me from converting, these practices are clearly later additions unto the Faith.
Excellent as always. I can’t wait for Michael Lofton’s response video. This is timely, as he recently put out a video defending Pope Francis for the Pachamama statue veneration. He shows a video of a woman referring to it as “our lady of the Amazon” in Spanish, and basically says that means it’s a depiction of Mary.
I asked him in the comments if the statue was made with the intent of being Mary or if it was made as Pachamama and repurposed into Mary. I didn’t get into this, but I was trying to parse out what makes something a statue or icon worthy of veneration-is it intent of the person venerating, is it what it was made as, is it consecrated, etc.
He replied that that is irrelevant to the accusation of idolatry, and that Catholics have long appropriated pagan elements into Christianity. I can’t see how venerating a representation of an Amazonian pagan goddess isn’t idolatry, but I’m sure he would respond that I’m incorrectly assuming something and that I should be more charitable.
When the highest authority is man, they can change the rules as they please
Sounds like Pagan repurposing to me. Shocker paganism gets downplayed and everyone who was "pagan" becomes Christians. I wonder what could go wrong.
Amazing work here. This is an excellent resource on this topic.
Thank you
Glad it was helpful!
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
@@culpepper7665 This is the problem with orthodox & catholic response videos , y’all take 5 hours to respond to a 1 hour video and spend most of the 5 hours on red herrings lol
This video is extremely thorough and well done, I really appreciated it.
Glad it was helpful!
Except for the part where Ortland demonstrates his ignorance of how doctrinal development works. Is he trying to say "Bad Catholics! You can't even use your own model correctly! " or is it more like, "Bad Catholics! You aren't adhering to Luther's Sacred Tradition of Sola Scriptura! " I mean, which is it? In conflating the two, he produced a nonsensical mess. Does he REALLY want to cite Origen for Christian wisdom apart from the Magisterium? Did you know that Origen removed his own family jewels because he took literally Jesus' admonition to pluck out an eye if it offends thee? There is so much to address... Honestly, this video is sloppy.
@@enshala6401 I think he’s representing how much OE and ROC simply justify idol worship very clearly. If you can’t see this, I’d encourage you to really let down your ego and pray about this.
@@batmanfan7506 I have studied, prayed, and reflected for decades on the Christian faith, and though I always need to pray more for the big challenges going on in my life, the subject of icons is most definitely not one of them. I am Palestinian, and icons are part of our culture, so iconoclasts are virtually racist to me. It's so unbelievably ignorant. We don't pray to a block of wood, and you guys representing it as such is really wrong. I don't understand how anyone can be so daft. Maybe you should pray about it yourself....? I mean, how would you feel if someone accused you of idolatry for your Bible worship?
@@enshala6401 you’re reaching real hard on that one haha
This was a truly phenomenal and helpful video. Thank you for all your hard work!
One thing I admire is your humility and scholarship compared to popular EO apologists like Reader Paul, whose videos are filled with prideful antics, silly voices, wiggling his face around in the camera, editing in insulting memes, etc.
The simple presentation of historical facts is really all that's required. To be deep in history, is to be deeply Protestant!
I so appreciate the thoroughness of your research and presentation in this video. This is very compelling.
So glad it was useful! Thanks Colin!
But it wasn't through he conveniently ignored the evidence in support. Appeals to a few heretics and ignores the ppl who gave him the scriptures venerated icons.
@@joseonwalking8666 which ones do you think were ignored?
@@joseonwalking8666quite the baseless accusation there.
@@noobitronius baseless? Tell me who did he appeal to in regards to evidence of early church? I will wait for your response. When you list them out I think you will see my piint.
This is so good. And the time stamps so helpful
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
Silence pagan.
@@g.williams2047 🙄
Thanks, Gavin! You make a very strong case!
Appreciate all you do Gavin! 👍
Thank you so much for this video!
I think this may be your best video yet Gavin! Thanks for clarity on this issue and continue the good work you're doing. God bless! 🙌
This video was so powerful! I never knew the extent of the Icon Veneration position till now. I assumed that it was "something to add to beauty".
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
You're content is amazing. Praise Jesus for you sharing this.
Thank-you Gavin as a Protestant considering Orthodoxy for a while now. I've recently started looking more deeper into this subject it makes 0 sense when regarding scripture. Godbless you and your family ❤
What do you mean?
@@πατριχορ read what I put
same. honestly, I could never imagine paul ever kissing a painting of moses
Make sure you give John of Damascus’s letters on iconography a read before just dismissing the biblical basis thereof.
Amen Brother, thank you so much for your ministry and hard work. What a blessing!
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
Thank you for all the time it must have taken you to put together this video. Videos like this are so needed right now. So many Protestants have no roots and are falling away right now.
@TJMcCarty
Peace.
That is because their foundation is sand.
Blessings.
@@JD-sj1zn I would say their foundation is the Word of God, which is the only immovable Rock.
@@TJMcCarty
Not according to that Word itself.
Scripture says that the CHURCH is the bulwark and foundation of Truth.
The Canon was not decided upon until the 4th century. What was the Authority in the first 4 centuries? The Church was. Who decided on the Canon of Scripture? The Church did.
As Augustine, a Catholic bishop, stated, "I would not believe in Scripture, if not for the authority of the Catholic Church."
As the Church, we DO believe that Scripture is the Word of God. But it is only because our Lord gave us an authoritative Church that told us it is.
@@TJMcCarty
Consider looking at the Church for the first 16 centuries of Christendom, when there was only "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church". (Nicea I, 325AD)
@@TJMcCarty
Peace.
Also, in your search for an accurate Bible (yes, I read your post from 3 weeks ago), consider buying the Catholic Douay-Rheims version with notes by Bishop Challoner.
Blessings.
accretion
noun
ac·cre·tion ə-ˈkrē-shən
Synonyms of accretion
1
: the process of growth or enlargement by a gradual buildup: such as
a
: increase by external addition or accumulation (as by adhesion of external parts or particles)
b
: the increase of land by the action of natural forces
2
: a product of accretion
Thank you for putting this together. May I request one thing? Could you put this into the format of an article with full quotes of these church fathers and citations? An hour-long video is a big ask for those I want to show this to, but this video is one of the best resources on this topic I've come across. Please turn this into an article. This need to be seen far and wide.
I myself am a former Catholic, and I am deeply concerned that there seems to be a trend of Protestants who have been converted to Orthodoxy or to Catholicism. Catholics and Orthodox are far better at attacking iconoclasm/aniconism than Protestants are at defending it.
This will be a chapter in my forthcoming book, What It Means to be Protestant
@@TruthUnites Great video. When will your book be available for purchase?
@@choppy1356 summer 2024
@@TruthUnites Excellent video, great content with historic references, looking forward to your forthcoming book on this subhect. I am a exRoman catholic, now Born Again Christian, though family is still RC, praying for them to move away from this idolatry and legalism of RC.
God bless you for imparting the truth.
From: Mumbai, India.
Yes Berkana totally agree. That would be a great help to Catholics like me who would wish to point out some things the good pastor may wish to change.
Thanks.
Thanks for the suggestion!
This is probably one of your best videos. I’m a Protestant but there are so few Protestants out there making reliable content that seriously addresses the issue of Icon Veneration. Your reliance on primary sources is great and scathing to the RC/EO position (imo). I’m curious - do lutheran and Anglicans that use crucifixes and icons in worship/devotion look at this similarly to RC/EO?
Anglican here. My priest laid it out like this: "We affirm the christological definitions of the Nicea II." We do have a crucifix and most if not all the parish bows to it as a symbol of Christ the King. When I voiced my queasiness I was assured I don't have to bow and that I should not go against my conscience. After much prayer and research I now do bow. I also have a few icons gifted to me by a friend. I occasionally kiss them as a show of affection for Christ and gratitude towards the saints who are praying for us. But all this is personal devotion not mandated.
@@EloSportsTalkAt the very least, I think that’s an answer that I and many other reasonable Protestants would accept.
@@EloSportsTalk As a Lutheran, yes, some churches use crucifixes, but many do not. For those that use them, we see them as symbolic of what we call the Theology of the Cross. They remind us of the salvation offered to us all through the death and resurrection of Christ. But we do not venerate them. Call it an object lesson and a reminder of the reality of Christ's sacrifice for us.
Lutheran here. There is a bright red line between contemplating a crucifix/icon/religious art and bowing to, kissing, or otherwise venerating that object. Very few Lutheran churches will ever allow bowing to or kissing a crucifix.
Looking at God's command in the Decalogue, the command is not against making images per se, but against making images "to bow down to them or serve them".
Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.
That’s a prayer to a saint.
No other to look at it. It’s in the Bible
@@EmptyDisc1 Not really my point. yes it is a parable not didactic teaching.
My point is that the protestant sensitivity to calling on other than God for succour or help doesnt seem to be shared by Jesus or his disciples or the jewish opponents listening to Jesus.
Jesus included a detail in the story which would make a protestant cringe or have to somehow explain away as you have attempted to.
Jesus didnt have to teach prayers to the saints, it was already something his audience was well familiar with hence the detail is included in His story, which is continued by the Orthodox Church.
It is the protestant position that is a novelty.
Honestly answer this question is there any circumstance in this life or the next (in the presence of God) in your paradigm, when I can say "Mother Mary, have mercy on me, send gabriel to assist me in my hour of suffering"?
Your answer, in your paradigm would be that that is idolatry because no pleas or intercession can be directed to other than God.
Well, looks like jesus and his audience dont share your sensitivities.
@@EmptyDisc1 again that’s not my point. I don’t believe Jesus is teaching prayers to the saints there. That would be absurd, it’s absurd because everyone just accepted it was a thing they did.
The reason we can conclude that is no one is protesting idolatry there.
But a Protestant would definitely protest and say that the story is an example of idolatry.
@@EmptyDisc1 if your point is that Jesus taught a blatantly false story. Then you’re delusional.
A parable, a story communicates truth.
Your position is that Jesus is incorporating idolatry into his story! Really? That’s where you want to go?
Jesus incorporates elements that his audience is familiar with.
Hence they are familiar with the idea of appealing to saints and patriarchs for succour.
Something that you would categorize as idolatry.
Basically the Protestant position would be that appealing for succour to other than God is idolatry.
Again not a position Jesus and his followers shared.
My point to put it succinctly is that the Protestant objects to appealing to Patriarchs and Saints for succour.
That position is a novelty and contradicts Christs teachings.
@@EmptyDisc1 and this is the problem with sola scriptura. You assume that there is no context that Jesus lived in, no culture and no basic assumptions and traditions.
But we can glean this from the parable easily.
They didn’t react with shock and wonder at a person appealing to a patriarch for succour.
That’s because it wasn’t a shock to them.
However, we know it would be a shock to a Protestant to appeal to a saint or patriarch for succour and so we can see that the Protestant position is the novelty.
I've never thought of this, but wow, what a good point, thank you, from your catholic cousin lol, God bless ❤
Gavin, thank you for a very well thought out and supported presentation of this topic. You are a gifted defender of God's Word and the true blessing to the faith of Christianity.
I was raised in the Catholic Church, but did not stay there. I basically became apostate, until God in His love and grace blessed me with salvation when I was born again at the age of 51. I could write a book about the failings of the RCC in communicating the Gospel to me or to many of the people I have known in my life.
In regard to idolatry, I still remember as a child that we had one of those plastic, magnetic 'Saint Christopher' statues on the dashboard of our car that was supposed to protect us as we traveled -- I was not taught that it was some conduit to God for protection.
Also, I still remember the prayer to 'Saint Anthony' I was taught as a young child -- "Saint Anthony of Padua was always wise and kind. He never had a penny, but he never seemed to mind. Now that Anthony's in heaven, if you ever lose your toys, I advise you to invoke him for he's good to girls and boys." Is that not idolatry? No mention of God or Jesus. I was taught that Anthony was going to help me.
This is brilliant work! Was even better when I watched a second time now. So much to comprehend and remember. Thank you Gavin for sharing your labor and produce with the us, the hungry. God bless you.
Hi JJCOG! If I may add some things, I'd like to. Even God Himself commanded images to be made - the statues of cherubim that go on either side of the tabernacle and the bronze serpent (which when people looked at it, they were healed from their snake bites) to name a couple.
God made us to be body AND spirit, not just spirit. As such, the LORD comes to us in both spiritual and physical ways. Think of Jesus - He healed by His Word, and by mixing His saliva with dirt and putting it on a man's eyes. He gave large crowds bread and fish to keep them sustained. A woman was healed through touching the tassel of His cloak. He died on the Cross for us. He instituted the Eucharist! We get to actually receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus!
God made us with bodies, and He declared it very good. Our bodies are not bad. Images are not banned - graven images are. Looking at/having an image of Jesus is not only not harmful, it's powerful and beautiful! I encourage you to look into the Catholic Faith - good resources can be found on Ascension Presents (RUclips, the Ascension App) and Catholic Answers (website and RUclips). God bless!
- A Catholic Christian
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
Can’t wait to give this a listen! I’m just finishing up an intensive study on this topic. I think that this is a litmus test area, since it’s one of the clearest places where one thing was believed universally in 250, and quite another thing in 850.
Hope you find it useful! Let me know how it coheres with your own research, if you get a chance.
@@TruthUnites Will do. In fact, I'll send you the results of my investigation, if there's a good way of getting that to you. If not, I'll just post a link here. God bless.
Hi Lynn. Here is my take on this topic as a convert to Orthodoxy:
Veneration of icons is just the outward expression of the inward veneration of God’s work in the life of the Saints. If it isn’t an act of idolatry for Asians to bow to each other, or Europeans to kiss each other, or for a grieving wife to kiss a picture of her husband, why would it be in the case of those who became radiant vessels of the Holy Spirit?
The ultimate logic of why the 7th Ecumenical Council and the Orthodox Church today have for considering this practice necessary, is the same logic Protestants use to explain the Biblical verses that clearly state the necessity of works for salvation. It’s not that the act in itself saves you, but there is no way to explain how a person could have repented without the fruits of repentance, there’s no way someone truly loves God without expressing that love in actions, and there’s no way they can truly love God and fail to express love to those people through whom His presence most shined in the world.
@@Jy3pr6 Thanks for your kind explanation. I actually don't have anything at all against venerating icons myself, and I kind of like the practice. It's the historical evidence that has convinced me that we shouldn't practice it. You're welcome to check out my article series on the topic, linked in my reply to Gavin.
Thanks for the clarity you brought to this sometimes muddy topic Gavin! Soli Deo Gloria
As a catholic, I love how everything is sacramental. We experience God in the physical world that He made for us. I can pray by watching a sunset, watching the trees, or enjoying an icon painting. God wants us to Love Him, and while He gives us some rules to do so properly, He also gives us a creative spirit and an attraction to beauty that is absolutely theologically relevant.
@@xuniepyro7399I mostly agree with you, but this is very uncharitable.
I am now a practicing Catholic. Born Catholic, became a Baptist then searching Jesus more deeply I read and moved to Pentecostal then The Lord les me to the Catholic Church in 1998. I love the Mass and Eucharist. I however still love the Bible, I do not worship idols and deeply object to all the statues and recited prayer. I enjoy and love you talks. Agree in many ways. Thank you, Pastor Gavin
Why do you object to the statues and recited prayer, esp. the statues? I'm not Catholic, but I do love Catholic art. The stained glass, the statues and pictures are beautiful and serene depictions. I don't enjoy the style of Orthodox art though. They aren't serene and there is something austere about their style of artwork that I always found a bit depressing. The Catholic depictions are uplifting though.
Doesn't Nicaea II anathematise you then?
@@evanspencer3632 I'm almost sure one of the councils would be anathematising her. Though from what I can tell by all the anathemas, a huge number of practicing Catholics would fall under this curse. It's really a terrible thing that the RCC declared these so much over too many of its sanctioned doctrines.
I feel like I see this kind of thing a lot. I could be misreading what you're saying, but I frequently see those who with Protestant background who have gravitated to Catholicism do so because they crave the structure of liturgy. I can admit to often being underwhelmed by the form of worship practiced in contemporary church environments, but I can't see how this would ever lead me toward stepping into a church environment that teaches such obviously false doctrines that are antithetical to core doctrines as outlined in scripture. To me, simply craving structure is an insufficient basis for embracing a church that not only promotes such doctrines, but anathematizes those who don't. Having spent substantial time in Latin America, I've observed firsthand how pervasive the veneration of images is as an aspect of Catholic practice, with shrines of Mary at the peak of countless mountains. I'm glad you appreciate Dr. Ortlund's analysis of the issue, but to me, from what I've seen, and what we see him saying, this is something that's central, not peripheral, when it comes to Catholic perception of what it means to be devoted in one's religious practice.
@@johnnythegringo8855 You can still get a structured, or high church liturgy on the protestant side too though. Anglicans, Lutherans and Presbyterians all have it. I wonder if it's the claim of apostolic succession and having infallible central doctrine?
This was really amazing work, thanks for all this research!
Thorough, well explained, serious and respectful. Thanks for this excellent video.
This video was very well done and researched! I remember a few years back watching the channel Pints With Aquinas. People like Trent Horn and Jimmy Aiken worked very hard to make Roman Catholicism seem more tenable. I remember many of their answers causing me to become less hypercritical of some of their practices. One day Matt Fradd showed a video of himself at church bowing down to a statue of Mary holding the Infant Jesus and then kissing the statue which really disturbed me (at the time I had no idea Catholics went that far). Needless to say, this video about veneration being an accretion has been extremely helpful in parsing out this topic. I truly appreciate all the citations you quote from early Church fathers and councils. Excellent work sir! 👍🏼
YOU: One day Matt Fradd showed a video of himself at church bowing down to a statue of Mary holding the Infant Jesus and then kissing the statue which really disturbed me (at the time I had no idea Catholics went that far).
😊... what's the problem? If you cannot do as Matt Fradd did, you are not in love with the Lord Jesus and his holy Mother yet. God bless Matt Fradd so much to enable him to show so much love for the Lord and his holy Mother.
God bless...
Horn and Akin did it again and there response is rather poor in my opinion, arguing against Sola Scriptura (not the main issue here) and advocating for doctrinal development.
@@coolcatbaron yeah they did in fact demolished Dr Gavin's argument!
@@calson814 I found their arguments to be quite evasive
@@For3nityFrom your logic we can conclude that all the apostles and early church fathers are an enemy of Christ! Thank you! I don't take people that argue from emotions seriously