Project Farm car air filter test results contradicted
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- Опубликовано: 30 май 2022
- In this, episode 56 of PowerTec 10, DV explains why the very popular test channel 'Project Farm' is off the mark with the air filter test results they conducted. Having done major pioneering work for K&N, the company under fire, DV explains why the otherwise carefully done tests made the K&N filter look no more than mediocre rather than the top ranking filter that it actually is.
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Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I recall the "Project Farm" tested the main purpose of air filters: the quality of filtration. This is what I am interested in and it is very hard to find any similar tests anywhere.
I know this is a year old video but I'm glad I stumbled across it. David thank you for the education sir.
I and probably the rest of us appreciate all you are teaching us. 50 years in 22 minutes. Thank you.
Hello Mr. Vizard, I've seen that air filter comparison test by Todd at Project Farm. I thought it was interesting. Like you, I have great respect for Todd & believe his tests are unbiased.
Since their introduction, I've used...ONLY...K & N Air Filters on my passenger cars//trucks and my
1967 Pontiac GTO.
Todds' filter comparison test did NOT change my opinion about the filtering quality or the beneficial unrestricted flow characteristics of a K & N Air Filter.
I feel the same loyalty for WIX-XP Engine Oil Filters. They are the BEST...in every aspect.
I sincerely appreciate your tutorial about K & N Air Filters. I've always known they're the BEST. But I didn't know "exactly" why. Now I do & I'm able to explain to others how they're better & "why". 🙂
BTW: THANKS for all you do to help & teach us all. You're not simply a teacher. You're an educator. Respectfully & best regards,
Ben
You are CORRECT
@@billywilliams6853 THANKS for your positive reply Billy.
Best regards,
Ben
K&N may flow the best but they don't filter the best. Bob is the Oil Guy did some filtration tests a while back andthe best for filtration is paper filters.
I gues it depends on your use. If you want you vehicle to last paper is best. Most power, K&N but you need to be aware that your engine is going to wear a bit faster.
Even if there is a "sweeping the air" effect, what happens on a turbocharged vehicle where the suction from the turbo is constant?
Thank you David. I watch farm project every time I get a notification and listen very carefully.
The point I think that is lost or overlooked in air filter flow\choice discussions is will you be at or near WOT most of the time or not? Ultimately, the biggest restriction to airflow is the position of the throttle plate(s). Once you get near to or at WOT, then air filter flow can come into play. So, unless you're driving around with your foot on the floor the vast majority of the time, the "high flow" air filters are simply a waste of money like so many other " bolt on mods".
Just to add to this; Many factory intakes are slow / lazy to air velocity changes.
Updated intake plumbing can improve throttle response for transient throttle changes.
Lastly Oiled filters can sometimes contaminate MAF sensors.
I've watched project farm from the beginning when he was destroying lawn mower engines. It's great to see his sub numbers up so high.
Interesting, the overwhelming experience I have with K&N filters is that they pass a large amount of dust, most of the vehicles I see with them are 4x4s with turbo diesel engines. The dust is obvious when you inspect the MAF sensor and the induction pipes where the rocker cover breather connects, there is always a large amount of dust trapped on the the oil from the breather.
If the filter works as DV describes, have the filter in a factory housing mounted away from the engine with a turbo, the air flow through the filter would be more 'linear' with not intake pulses and the filter would not be subjected to engine vibration
Yea.....my experience with K&N has always been a positive one...and I'd read Mr Vizard's work from back in the '70's so was aware of his dealings with them. A turbo doesn't pulse the intake...it's virtually the same as an electric motor on a flow bench....where the K&N doesn't work well so I'd not use one on a turbo anything. But several times over the years on various motorcycle forums ( where someone mentioned an 'Official Test' of various filters where the K&N did very poorly) I've brought up David's experiences with them and showed that the 'Official Test' was flawed. It was paid for by Delco...whose filter 'won' the test...who could have guessed?
The tipoff was that they said the K&N 'clogged easily'. What? But look at the test and what they did was slowly dump dirt on them until the restriction went up by 10" H2O. OK..fair enough, except that the 'clogged' K&N when they stopped the test still flowed WAY better than the brand new Delco filter! What they should have done is pick a total restriction number then load each filter to that point....but if they actually did that....the K&N would hold a LOT more dirt and probably still outflow the others. That test was intended to sell Delco filters and hurt K&N and should be disregarded. If the test bench doesn't pulse the intake flow like a running motor does....the 'test' is flawed and biased against the K&N where filtration efficiency is to be measured.
I must second your experience Brad. The amount of dust I see in the intake tract of K&N equipped vehicles made me stop using them years ago. Never thought to compare turbo vs. non-turbo vehicles though.
Brad, you highlight an interesting situation here. I guess if the filter is far enough away from the turbo things might not work as intended. I am sure many of us would like to hear of any fixes and conclusions you might have based on your experiences.
Thanks
DV
@@marvingvx1 I have the same experience with K&N filters on turbocharged engines as Brad and others here. They flows very well but do not filter very much. I have seen that some diesel tuner experts uses other filters and some Pikes Peak folks uses large paper filters on their turbochargers.
@@frenchonion4595 Unless you are space limited (and yes, some applications are), you can always install a filter with a larger surface area to reach your flow targets unrestricted. There was a great episode on Engine Masters (motor trend TV) where they tested different filter sizes on a 500 hp engine and only the very smallest filter actually hurt power.
I have been using K&N air filters for at least 30 years. My greatest milage was on a 1998 GS 400 Lexus V8 with 212,000 miles on it before a nice young lady rear ended me and totaled the vehicle. At that milage I never added any oil to the motor between 6,000 mile oil changes on mobil 1 synthetic oil. I drove many freeway miles. I will continue to utilize K&N filters. My last cleaning kit has so far lasted me about 12 years. What's not to like. Lexus air filters are not cheap. K&N air filters are ultimately very cost efficient air filters. And, no mass airflow sensors problems, ever.
I’ve heard you tell that story in a seminar about mini engines from the 90s and I’ve used the K&N ever since. I love your work mate and I’ve been taking your advice for the last 40 years through your books.
Easy concept to understand-------now.
On pulsing ICE 's the oiled cotton fibers flutter some, letting the air pass. On straight line flow these fibers calapse down in direction of flow, restrcting air.
It now explains why a K@N filter on a rednecked shop vacuum attached to a rednecked bead blaster didn't do as expected.
Finally a description I understand why KNs work so well, thanx David !
Once again thank you Mr. Visard. Your research is helpful and enjoyable.
And damn right, project farm is awesome. Not everyone has a farmabago.
There is a difference between tested in a controlled environment vs tested in life and experience
Have a laboratory oil analysis done on your engine using a paper element filer for X amount of miles. Then do the same thing but using an oil wetted cotton gauze oil filter. Note the differences in the oil analysis reports.
Thanks So much I love my K& N filters . Been worried about it Thank you .Hope u feel better. Very happy now 😊!!
I’m running an AEM Dryflow filter to protect my MAF meter. It is engineered by K&N. I’ve seen several MAF meters fail on 911 Turbos with a new out of the box K&N. And I‘ve seen a TSB from Chrysler stating that they will void your warranty if a K&N filter is used. I recall that it applied to turbo diesel powered vehicles.
Magsneseon Moss Warranty Act protects consumers from BS like Chrysler trying to void warranty for using a different filter or changing your own oil etc.
@@Thumper68..... Unless they can prove that your product actually caused harm. K&N uses oil which can mess with your MAF meters down the flow path.
You are correct about the Warranty act that protects consumers, but to have it go your way, in a court of law, would cost you so much money to "maybe" win.
@@thegrmcrckr488 yeah I never used that oil from k&n filter cleaning kits.I understand why they use it and if someone does it shouldn’t be applied heavy and definitely should give it 24 hours after applying to before putting on vehicle. It really shouldn’t ever be applied heavy enough it’s effecting MAF sensors.
@@thegrmcrckr488Chrysler doesn't use MAF.
In my experience, about the best flowing and filtering filter you can get, is a K&N element inside a cyclone housing. The "big stuff" will get thrown out by the cyclone, and the element will catch the dust that's the true problem. They'll last until they are physically torn by an improper service or a tool going thru the element: mileage maintenance requirements are almost meaningless, and service hours are more appropriate. Even at that, if you clean and re-oil per K&N's instructions, you're good for another X number of hours. Just avoid tearing the element and you're golden.
Good episode! Thanks!
About 20 years ago there was a mailing list called the hotrod list. Amazing group of people. Much of the list is still archived.
There was a article in with the author convinced his boss, the chief engineer of a plant, to change the air filter of their generators to K&N. For the amount of fuel they burned, even a few percentage points in power increase would be beneficial. These were industrial generators. Oil was changed every month AND sent out for analysis. After one month with K&N, the oil analysis showed a spike in contaminates suggesting that wear, while still low, had increased. They switched back to their paper elements and the oil numbers went down. No further tests were done. It was deemed not worth the risk to try the K&N and see if the spike returned.
It was then brought up in discussion that cotton/oil filters don't actually filter that well. K&N advertisement claims increased flow, but not better filtration. Synthetic filters claim better filtration (and from the numbers, at the cost of flow).
Based on one anecdotal response, it seem there is some compromise with cotton/oil filters when it comes to filtration.
I'm fully aware the plural of anecdotal isn't 'evidence'.
Now, will it make any difference in a car engine that sees maybe 500 hrs a year? Mostly at idle? vs. a generator that is running under load for 720 hours in a month? So for me, I use the filter that comes with the cold air induction and switch to a dry filter when it comes time for the first cleaning.
You don't state any details of the generator's engine design, but there is some discussion about turbocharged engines possibly not having sufficient intake pulse to get the fibers moving, as the turbo itself makes the intake flow smoother. Could that be relevant?
@@aussiebloke609 Sorry, it was from memory. I'm doing a search through the archives and will update if find the story.
As they say in the advertising "the dirtier it gets the better it works".
This is the designed function of a DEPTH LOADING filter. The short version is that the DHC collected builds these little "piles" of dirt, similar to stalagmites that accumulate "vertically", and thus also increase surface area for impingement collection. Depending on velocity and size of particulate, there is an entire science of study around what causes the impingement (won't go there now). Because it builds vertically (depth loading), rather than horizontally (surface loading), it can collect more, without clogging the airflow. So ... YES, a DEPTH LOADING filter design DOES GET BETTER (at collecting particulates) as it loads. Which is in part why the PF test is NOT going to tell the whole story about K&N and DEPTH LOADING filters.
The biggest challenge I have with DEPTH LOADING filters is the people want to CHANGE them TOO SOON. They look at them, and go "yuck, those are FILTHY", and then think they are doing a good thing to change them (or clean them and re-oil, etc.). What they are really doing is getting rid of the structure that actually helps capture even more contaminant. Overcleaning a K&N filter doesn't help you get better filtration. Letting it "load" does ... and yet, you don't lose air flow (under real world accumulation rates) the same way that dumping a sack of flour on it does. That whole flour dump thing on PF is not a proper indication of how a depth loading filter will function over time.
While I've spoken well of PF ... their test of the DEPTH LOADING filter with an accelerated dump that they did leads folks to a FAULTY understanding of how a DEPTH LOADING filter functions. Sadly, PF didn't understand what would be necessary to show how a DEPTH LOADING filter functions over time.
Love your stories DV!
Hi David,
Roger from the Uk here. Go Kart project.
Got to update my kids now but still been buying KN for all these years anyway.
Many Thanks.
That was as classy as classy gets. I love what's-his-name at Project Farm too. 😁
He's as honest as they get and let's the viewers decide.
Great video on K&N filters. I was a sceptic of K&N filters until hearing your explanation.
👍👍👍
the one & only k&n filter I used was removed at the first oil change due to the dirt I saw in the intake post filter, I guess if you are an engine builder and you enjoy rebuilding your engine on a regular basis k&n is for you
Thank you DV for taking the time to carefully explain this important air filter issue.. I'm sure you will have project farm contacting you... You guys will be great together.... And maybe he will take you for a ride in his old motor home...Haha
I bought a $500 Callaway air intake for my 2001 Corvette Z06. The airflow path was much smoother than the stock air intake, it drew air from under the car, in the radiator cavity where the car was designed to direct air, and it came with a big reusable high flow filter. I had a baseline dyno test and after installing the Callaway intake and letting the MAF and PCM relearn for I think 1,000 miles iirc I dynod the car again on the same dyno. +1 rwhp 😂😂 no difference in acceleration times with a Dragy gps unit either. After that I sold the air intake and went back to paper. K&N at its best still filters worse than a paper filter at any time. After running the Callaway air intake for a few thousand miles, which had a very good seal against the filter btw, the inside of my TB had a gritty greasy residue that it never had before. The theory presented in this video is interesting but we need to see this proven. The cotton strands in K&N filters are pretty coarse, I can't really see them vibrating as described enough to filter better than paper. I have seen a little bit of grit (dust/dirt) in the bores of a 302 from sitting open, which was wiped away several times before cylinder heads were bolted on, go on to dust the rings in that engine within a few hundred miles after install.
This is my experience also. Not a corvette but a couple
Different k&n filters on different vehicles. Stuff gets through them. If I was racing and rebuilding often I may consider one. Otherwise I’m sticking with paper.
Yeah, I'd need to see this tested to prove Todd wrong. Can't just talk about it and use words to disprove a test scenario.
Like Project Farm too. He does a great job as you stated .I To use K&N filters in everthing I own.For over 18 years.
Hello David , Have you already done or will do a flow test on different aftermarket stock mufflers and performance mufflers ?
The concept of waving fingers with oil on them to catch particles is interesting. It should not be too difficult to get a close up slow-motion video of that. Various frequencies of vibration could be injected to get some idea of the required vibration to make the filter work well. I like your videos.
Hi David, I have only ever used K&N replacement filters, although I cleaned and re-oiled them at the intervals the oem one should have been replaced, because I never trusted the marketing claims,and had no way or the knowledge of how to test the claims. My bad! So I have a question for you, I think I understand what you are saying, so going on that, and the belief that these are the best filters for a Normally Aspirated engine due to the pulses in the intake manifold, does this still apply when the engine is turbo/supercharged during boost? Or are the paranoid guys correct that it is better to use oem paper filters and change them more often in a forced induction application? Thanks in advance, Dan.
Dan, read the answers I have made to similar questions in the newer comments list.
DV
Regarding the K+N , your observations are totally valid and correct, the problem now is how they are mounted on modern cars , (remoteley) in a filter box attached to the inner fender or radiator support at the end of a longish pipe somewheres behind the grille in the front fascia where they are in a pretty vibration free environment , the oil soaked cotton strands are not able to vibrate and carch the dirt particles in the air , besides the wear in the cylinders , rings and valves , the mass air flow sensor is also dirtied as a result and will not see a correct value causing lincorrect fuel /air mixtures ,lost power, hard starting , driveability issues. I have known many engine builders and "tuners" over the years , few have impressed me like you have .Most have a whole catalogue of excuses as to why their engines dont make the claimed power levels, blow up or are pretty much undriveable when in the vehicle.
"Having done major pioneering work for K&N"
aka "i have an extremely biased opinion"
David Sir, Really glad to see and hear from you. Always learn something from your videos. Sorry for your loss of your friend. My Grandma said and she lived into her 90s You better get used to losing friends and family if you plan to live a long life. I know it's hard but true. Very glad to hear about your knowledge and experience. Thank You for sharing. Always be safe in your travels and Take Care
Well Craig thank you very much for those kind and thoughtful words.
DV
Thanks for being so informative
Thank you for clearing up the confusion about K and N. I’ve heard that papers better than K and N. I have a K and N but was conflicted. Not now.
You're kidding, right?
Nope. I was told KandN and the type let more small particles through. That’s how they flowed better.
Thank you sir. I love your angle here. 👊🏻
Learn something new every day
I have used K&N for years I keep them clean and oiled and never have had an issue.
Did you do oil analysis?
From 1987-1996 I ran a chassis dyno tuning service near the San Jose airport (Rockwell Motorsports). I tested hundreds of cars back to back using a new factory air filter versus factory replacement K & N air filters. Only one car ever made more power with the K & N filter (a VW Corrado). All the other cars lost power when installing the K & N filter. 80% of these cars were water cooled fuel injected VW's.
When servicing water-cooled VW's we noticed that there was a fine layer of dust inside the intake manifold on cars equipped with K & N filters. This was never noticed on cars with factory or aftermarket Mann air filters.
Based on my experience I have to conclude that K & N factory replacement filters are inferior to genuine factory paper or synthetic media filters. K & N filters for custom fit racing applications are a different kettle of fish.
K & N got it's start from off road racing where the dust holding capacity of the filter is superior to conventional paper and oil bath filters. However, dust holding capacity is not a big factor for conventional street cars.The fuel injection systems usually have a throttle downstream of the air filter that dampens intake pulsations before reaching the air filter since street cars operate at part throttle most of the time, therefore the K & N filter's fibers are not effectively removing fine dust from the intake air. That is my theory for what it is worth.
On my classic Mini I have a K & N on the HIF carburetor because it is the only thing that will fit!
I love the fact that i get to hear David talk about these topics. It's like striking gold sometimes. This was enlightening. Sounds like the turbo guys need an air filter vibrator.............
I had that thought too, and centrifugal types too
I also watched the Project Farm filter test. The best thing to do is another dynamic test. The " Project Farm filter test" the best was WIX filter made in Florida. So I feel another test should be set up as the WIX filter was very effective. Have watched your vidios David they really are informative and very interesting. Also watch Project Farm also a great show. We need a filter showdown.
Thanks for posting this. I just inspected the inside of the hose just after the air box on my BRZ and it was full of fine particle dust. The K&N filter is not working for me. Replacing it asap and will never buy another one.
I just want to know is this when the ideal of the electromagneticly boosted intake began? 🤔 DV you are the man! thank you for all the knowledge you bestow upon everyone! God bless you sir
That was interesting! However, I was told that an oiled filter would contaminate a mass airflow sensor. So on my current project car, I'm using a paper filter.
In theory it could, but there is so little oil.... The old GM MAFs also had a burn-off cycle when you shut the engine off. Those were full size MAFs that all the air had to go through. I know Ford and my Duramax use smaller MAFs and I'm unaware of any burn-off cycles.
Herd the same and prefer to not use oiled myself with a MAF But I've also herd most over oil the filter after cleaning.
Don't believe everything that you are told. Nissan used to use viscous paper element filters. Essentially an oiled paper for dirty conditions with hot wire air mass meters. Volvo also used them. I've never seen any trace of oil in the system but I have seen dust from plain paper elements not doing the job
When you apply too much oil. Apply as directed when servicing and it will be fine.
My new KN sure did.
So which air filter would you recommend for a Gas hybrid? Toyota or Honda?
I've switched to oil bath filter. Highest flow and best filtering.
Fantasic video...I always woundered if all the clames were B/S...thank u D.V....for all the detective work...facts....no B/S...I know what filter im using...thanks David...Regards Brian
THANK YOU DAVID EXCELLENT VIDEO
K&N filters are great on old style motors which suck crankcase gases into the air cleaner box as the oily vapour keeps the K&N cotton filter sticky for good filtering. Paper air filters flow really bad once they get oil contaminated or old.
Wow. Informative. May be time to clean my K&N on my motorcycle. It's not so easy to get to so I've neglected it.
Nice to hear this. K&N filters make power, but as a touring BMW rider I worried about longevity. This will go along with my Siebenrock top end and give my sidecar puller a little brisker.
I also follow Project Farm, and have been quite impressed with the simplicity of his testing as well as his no nonsense results delivery. Also, about 35 years ago, I did air filter testing on the dyno. The K&N stuff fared the best (A-series BMC and 4 cylinder Ford). I have also dyno'ed mufflers, racing fuels, and low friction coatings as well as standard race engine development. It's amazing how many myths can be exploded!
what mufflers have you tested ? I'm building a 1965 dodge dart motor and was wanting a high flow but yet quiet muffler for my dual exhaust 360 . I'll add electric cut outs when I want it loud . have you tested the New Pypes Turbo Pros ?
How did the coatings come out??
@@chriscarbaugh3936 you talking to me ? and if so which coatings ?
@@MoparMan-ff8fbNo he was asking William but to no avail. Let me tell you I am using a Pypes X-pipe on my 383 and I designed and had a pair of mufflers made to my specifications in Europe by one of the best exhaust companies in the world. Its not a race car but I will see how it sounds soon. I had used Magnaflow 2-1/2 mufflers previously but they were pretty bad. Way too much bass came through with my engine and camshaft
Mr. Vizard, the gauze filter may also act in change of air direction causing contact with the oiled fibers like in restaurant or home grill metal oil vapor filters while their holes are huge they still catch the oil even though they don't move.
So if I understand this correctly, steady state airflow does not filter air very well (on a K&N filter) because the fibers are not "vibrating", the fibers "vibrate" because of the intake pressure wave reversion when the intake valve closes. Is this correct David? Yes I use K&N filters on my vehicles.
*You clearly got what DV said. Cheers!*
Do you have a video showing a test to disprove Todd or are you only able to disprove with theory and discussion?
Thank you DV
I two also watch the same channel but as far as oil and air filters I use WIX for oil and fuel filters and use K & N air filters on our vehicles. the only thing I do concerning K & N air filters is on days / nights with heavy pollen including trees I will wash the filter each week . But when dust and pollen is down I wash it once a month . I dont use alot of the spray oil on the filter and when I wash it I hang it up and let it get bone dry before adding the spray oil. No issues so far
Thank you David for taking the time to make these videos. Now that i understand how they work i can get a better understanding on why they work the way they do!
I have 2 cars running almost identical KnN cone filters. One a 4cyl turbo and the other a normally asperated v8. From the intake tract the filter on the turbo engine does not seem to be as effective. Although the intake tract is far cleaner then when i used a non branded dry filter cone filter.
Have a laboratory oil analysis done on your engine using a paper element filer for X amount of miles. Then do the same thing but using an oil wetted cotton gauze oil filter. Note the differences.
I kind of panicked when I saw the Project Farm test result of the K&N filter because I have one in my Charger. When I removed it for knocking the detritus off I did the white glove test down stream and it was all clean. I knew MY K&N filter was working just fine. I have washed and re-oiled it once.
Two videos in less than 24hrs. We have been blessed. A question please David, how does the K&N go with turbo charging, or centrifugal supercharging? I would imagine that the reflected pulses would be significantly dampened and would negatively affect the performance of the filter. Or am I over thinking the situation? Regards Greg
I think you already know the answer. There are no pulses on a turbo's intake, it is very linear due to the inertia of the spinning turbine and compressor wheels.
I would use a paper filter.
Greg, No overthinging here - you are right! However the pulsing the does exist is still enough to get the filter to work.
I'm thinking that some confusion is raised, in an off road situ, from the accumulation of dirt that is largely on the peaks of the pleats, but filtration is still happening deep in the valleys. Btw, amazing info .
Thanks Mr Visard now I know why my K&N filter doesnt work very well on my offroader, thats because its rigidly mounted to the inside of the fire wall and connected to the inlet manifold by a flexi pipe.
98% of filters are mounted ridgidly.
Too far from intake pulsations?
Ok, very basically the filter works in a sense through vibration and variations in airflow. Do they still work as efficiently when they are mounted in a filter housing solidly mounted to the chassis?
It's not the vibration of the engine, but rather the pulsation of the intake air. A remote filter will still have the intake pulses on a NA engine. Turbo and Supercharged engines will have more linear flow as the pulses are dampened or cancelled by the turbine.
I have used K&Ns for decades until about 10 years ago when I switched back to paper as an experiment. I get better filtration and better fuel economy with no noticeable change in power with paper elements.
I own 14 cars and keep meticulous logs on each car. All of them got better MPG going back to paper.
@@davidparker9676 thanks for answering that David
Yes
I have used K & N air filters on 600k miles worth of 3 cars......all engines are NA engines......I love Project Farm btw, totally agree with you
Glad DV cleared up this point for us. I've heard that the K&N filter oil can gradually get on the MAFS elements and cause it to malfunction. Anybody know if this is true?
They say most cases of MAF malfunction come from over oiling the filter element and the MAF would not normally be fouled if it is oiled moderately as per instructions. Still I imagine some micro particles coated in oil will get through that may end up sticking to and building up on the MAF sensor. I suggest you schedule routine cleaning of the MAF sensor if you plan on using an oiled filter. You should clean the MAF sensor anyway from time to time, just do it more often.
I put a drop in k&n in my wife's Impala and I had to replace the mass air flow and throttle body after a year because of the amount of dirt. That's after I had to clean the mass air and intake because the factory over oiled it.
Hello, I love the knowledge I am learning in your videos.
I must say though the sound quality is very bad, it is hard to hear you sir.
Excellent, thank you! As a young dirt bike nut in the early 1970s, I remember very well the incredible claims about K&N filters used in desert racing. I have pondered the question of how those stories could be true ever since. I can finally lay that to rest.
i remember those, also. i bought one for my yamaha r5 350 (street bike).
was happy.
Don't take this at face value.
In theory the k n might not work as well on a turbo motor were the intake pulses are broken up, possibly they would work better on a 2 stroke o or motor with fewer cyl with more pulsing
I used to use KN for my vehicles, then one time, I was over aggressive and created wide holes. After that, I stopped using them due to the cost, but since this video, I'm going to buy them again now that I know how they really work and I probably do not need to clean the thing at all.
The following types of filters can get dirt inside air intake tubes and on MAF sensors when improperly installed:
1. All
I too would not miss a Project Farm test although many products are not available in Australia.
Todd does not have elaborate, calibrated testing equipment but relies on home made and workshop tools relying in most part on COMPARISON between brands of products. From memory the air filter test finished with a comparison of acceleration over a given section of road with no difference between the K&N and the normal.
It's been a long time since I looked into these filters but don't K&N filters use a special oil to trap the dust. If so wouldn't the oil inhibit the movement of the fibres with each induction pulse.
I remember in the 70s, articles on performance improvements in the C&CC magazines from the UK written by DV. Thank you for many hours of entertainment and thought experiments.
Does the pulse effect still remain in a turbo application with a steadier supply of compressed air ?
I believe the air is filtered BEFORE it reaches the turbo, but the turbo WOULD block the pulses of the valves opening and closing.
I believe the "waving hair", i.e. pulsing air flow, theory is just obfuscation and gas lighting.
@@daveinwla6360 Maybe mechanical vibration could lend to the "waving hairs" theory?
@@Resistculturaldecline - How would whip-like cilia waving in unison in a fluid medium acting to sweep dirt particles along the inner surface of lungs parallel the vibrating of filter hairs due to pulsing intake air? The actions are totally different. This is K&N's "friend" proposing something irrational to people who can't investigate what really happens.
@@daveinwla6360 An inconsistency in the fluid motion is all I can think, if true. Not every cubic unit of volume acting the same as the neighboring cubic unit of volume.
I can't confirm or deny, just pool game conversation is far as I could take it.
I like that channel to, its quite a premotioncomming from someone like you.
So do the k&n filter less on a turbo charged engine?
Cbob, an astute question for sure here and the answer is almost certainly yes. But that said they are still very effective. Here I can give you Honda's experience when the found that the K&N filter element was the best on the F1 1500 cc Spirit turbo engine.
@@marvingvx1 thank you for all the information and years of wisdom. Its a great channel, do you have any info on conecting rod length vs stroke. Is there any ill effects to to much pistion dwell time. Thanks again
todd of project farm sets the bar pretty high for his testing.millions trust his results, but i do understand what david stated,& how it would effect the flow testing.its something i wouldnt have considered.that why i like david so much.he gives you an insiders insight.
I always use K&N filters on my race engines not because of filtration quality but because they are free flowing and do not cost power. I've found that even when very dirty they still free flow. Regarding the fine dust they do let through I found a way to completely safeguard the internal parts of the engine from suffering wear due to this dust by running a small percentage of synthetic race 2 cycle oil mixed with the fuel at around 150/1 ratio, this little bit of oil really works wonders and prevents wear at every place it comes into contact with such as carbs, inlet valves and guides, piston rings and cylinder bores and I'd recommend using it to everyone using a race motor in dusty conditions
All excellent and true info but K&N filters use a layer of oil to operate and a small amount (vapors) of this oil will flow into the system. Modern engine sensors don't like any oil passing through the air system and potentially clogging them. In addition, the race engines you're talking about have dramatically different airbox set ups than a typical passenger car engine. This will change the K&Ns ability to filter on a standard passenger car. I've rebuilt over 200 engines in my life (some race and some passenger car) and have only used WIX (or Napa Gold - same part).
David, do you not work for, or are associated with K&N? you did seminars on Horsepower with them.
Other than the year or so I was their consultant no I do not work for them. I have however made them tens of millions of dollars but did not see any financial gains from such. However K&N is not the only company I have mae big bucks for so that is nothing much out of the ordinary.
Most people seem to have no idea of the pressure waves inside an engine ,so the concept of the filter being active will be a hard concept to grasp.
So Project Farm's test is accurate for a turbo motor where the filter is more isolated from the engine pulses.
Wow, thanks for that.
I Have been a long time follower from the book days, so I trust DV, but my observations differ.
Unfortunately, when I see a vehicle in our shop with a K&N, it often has dirt behind the filter. If the vehicle has a mass airflow sensor, then the wires are often coated with a layer of dirt/oil. Maybe the problem is improper service (we don't service them), but unfortunately that has been my long term observations. I think that they are ok on vehicles without a MAF. Have not had problems with the S&B filter, which we usually see on diesels. Do you still get the needed pulsations on a turbo diesel? I would think that you get almost no pulsation when making boost pressure.
Mcawrse, in my experience problems have been from misuse. Such things as over oiling, use of an airline to clean, hosepipe washing etc. All that said I am taking your comments seriously. The MAF problems are almost always due to over oiling. I remember the days when this situation was first seen. The fix was more cotton layers and tighter control over the oiling process. Thanks for your prospective here.
DV
@@marvingvx1 Thank you for taking the time to address my post. I agree, it's probably a lot of improper service as far as the MAF issues I see.
Mcarse
JME says I agree.
I've seen lots of junk on intake tracts and MAM. My personal car included.
I/we refuse to touch any aftermarket filter that comes in our shop.
That was great!
maybe bring up the oil on the KN eventually ruining the MAF sensors..
Pretty much every F1 car uses a variation of what appears to be the K&N filter medium - con't comment on whether they are, but they put a premium on minimising engine wear over several thousand racing miles. The filters would be replaced, or at least cleaned and serviced every race weekend, maybe more frequently, but still...
The grease in the intake is interesting - I haven't tried it but others have reported some dirt being found when they did it - might be mis-remembering, though, as I thought that was Mr Vizard's comment quite a few years ago, and it seems it wouldn't have been him?
In the end, it's going to come down primarily on what the engine is being used for?
For outright power, with the focus on airflow, a K&N may be the best bet, with a 'daily driver' an "OEM" one* may be the best option, for other conditions other calls may be made.
The dry foam ones, which seem to be popular for the JDM "tuners" seem to be both restrictive and poor at filtering.
As a general rule, bigger is better.
*NOTE, there is a huge range of quality in OEM filtration elements.
The typical racing engine - car or bike - is rebuilt after each race.
An F1 motor is rebuilt after every race.
@@fredbrackely
Not sure if you're just ignorant, or also stupid - MANY years ago, that was true, but for many years they've had a limited allocation of THREE engines they can use during the year, each additional engine incurs a penalty.
The limitations on the free use of components also applies to the gearbox, and various other parts of the hybrid systems used.
Furthermore, for some years there've been limitations on what they can spend in total - with some excemptions, on testing, wind-tunnel use, etc.
Heck, even when there weren't the engine and spending cap's, they'd progressed from re-building to running fresh, new engines that had only been tested and 'run in' on dyno's to ensure they worked correctly.
I'll keep my s&b on my Cummins. After beating almost 6 years of dirt out of it and it not letting any dirty past. I won't use any other filter.
I have a K&N CAI with over 100k miles and 17 years old. I clean it every two years or 10k miles. Works just fine.
Also, K&N is a great American company with great customer service.
Awesome 😎
Used K&N filters on dirt track engine for years!
I always hated the magazine industry for pushing advertisers products, without any testing. That’s why I really enjoyed super Chevy and Richard Holdener’s articles
Thx for the informative video. It's always been my opinion to have a clean filter with more than enough surface area to flow the engines need, more than enough because flow reduces as it gets dirty. I've used K&N filters and similar others or just a large paper filter changed often.
Thank you for explaining this, makes me feel better about all the K&N's I've bought over the years. I love Project Farm, but that episode comparing K&N and other filters was just one that I chose to ignore, a fluke maybe, or maybe I was just a die-hard fan that couldn't accept the results. Now my faith in Project Farm is restored, everyone makes mistakes at some point, it happens. Really happy I found your channel, what a treat to hear insights from smart people like yourself.
This channel is dead for now, find his other channel called David Vizard.
I never heard about your daughter Jacques David, please may I add my deepest sympathy to you and your family for the loss of your beautiful child
Because of your consulting, and subsequent reporting of K&N back in the day, when I was a young hot rodder, K&N is the ONLY filter that goes on my vehicles. I trust them, and that is that. And yes, wash per the instructions, and just allow yourself some time to let them air dry. Here in Texas, during our "lovely" summer days, that doesn't take very long. Oil them as directed and they just plain work!
So I do not follow the logic of the K&N filter not plugging up and losing power and still being superior at filtration? It seems very probable that they are sacrificing filtration for more power and less restrictive flow. Some people would rather sacrifice power to keep those contaminates out of the motor. They want long term reliability.
Well... While I still want more info on this subject,,,. This video gives me an insight on answering that very question.
Would a K&N air filter be a reliable, and more importantly (for peace of mind), a suitably protective, choice?
I think what he is trying to say is that if thought of in terms of air being sucked in a "violent pulse" during the air intake portion for each piston cycle rather than static vacuum pressure ("constant sucking") or no air moving at all, the fiber medium in a k&n is likely to vibrate super quickly as an air pulse passes over it. When this happens, if the fibers are oiled correctly it seems, the oiled fibers have a huge chance of grabbing micro debris out of the air and holding it. On top of that, the captured particle causes even more air turbulence by it being "in the way" aerodynamically, which in turn causes the "clean" fibers deeper in the medium to become an even better filter medium than it was before by vibrating even more intensely, at likely a higher frequency, which makes the deeper "previously cleaner" fibers have an even greater chance of (higher frequency of vibration\turbulence) capturing more particles and becoming dirty themselves.
Once all the fibers are completely covered in dirt there are still "holes" for the air to get through... Which implies it's a good idea to make sure the fibers can vibrate again. So not only is cleaning and oiling the filter often important, but also of paramount importance is, learning how to properly clean and oil a k&n air filter if you don't want to destroy your maf (if your car has one) or something else worse deeper in the engine going wrong.
I think a lot of the bad press k&n gets is a lack of reading the owners manual. I'm not ready to get a k&n because it seems like a pain in the butt to maintain just so I have the ability to tell people I never have to buy another air filter again...
I think if I was taught how to use one, I wouldn't think twice about it. But right now, typing this is taking more time than I have so I doubt I'll go through the trouble of learning how to maintain a fancy shmancy air filter.
Maybe later in my vehicles life but not now, simply because I think the theory is sound, and in practice it would work very well as long as it's maintained correctly. But again, right now I don't have the time or energy to mickey mouse around and possibly make and cause an expensive mistake during a simple "maintenance procedure". I'm going to be buying paper filters and replacing them often simply because it's easier and I don't feel like adding more steps to my "at home vehicle maintenance checklist" at the moment.
The problem is that the typical motorcyclist doesn't have the engineering education or lab equipment to do a long-term test of K&N "waving hair" filters.
Furthermore, any lessening of engine life can be blamed on the unknown variables of motorcycles, and in the case of used bikes - on the previous owner.
With my college degree in physics, I'd stand by Project Farms' test of air filters until such a qualified lab test proves out the "waving hair" model.
I dont expect Project Farm to be 'right' , I just want the data points for myself.
I use their filters. I won't use their cold air intakes though.
K&N are good. I found through my own experience while testing a BA Falcon Wagon intake that the K&N gave a mild loss in overall flow compared to having nothing at all. However, that test showed me a K&N filter in a stock airbox housing will show little to no flow improvement due to the over the radiator air feed being more of a restriction than the stock paper element.
I concluded that this is why most, if not all, aftermarket cold air set ups get their gains by allowing greater airflow to the air cleaner. Seeing I already had the K&N, I modified the lower section to be less of a restriction to the air cleaner to the point it matched the flow of the inital test with no lower section.
Performance testing wasnt done, however 7.7L/100km average over 160km trip was the end result, and the general average fuel use had fallen from above 11L/100km to 10L.
Now with a Turbo Territory, those modifications were repeated and the same 1L less in fuel useage was repliacted, along with a much more noticeable improvement in performance.
I noticed gains in fuel economy with OEM paper filters. I took all my K&Ns off my EFI cars. They are especially bad for MAF sensors. The sensors get oil fouled.
@@davidparker9676 That's only if you over oil them. I run K&N oiled filters on all my MAF cars and I have NEVER had a dirty MAF sensor while running those filters (either on a stock car or my mustang with 21 lbs of boost). On the other hand I see dirty MAF sensors and throttle bodies all the time from the OEM paper filters. Even when a paper filter is fully sealed, the west Texas dirt still finds a way through the filter and sticks to the oil residue (mainly from the PCV system) all down the intake, throttle body and into the runners.
I agree with Vizard, he is a legend among mini enthusiasts and literally wrote the book on modifying minis. I would trust Vizard before most people when it comes to anything to do with cars. Todd the Project Farm guy is correct on most of his tests except the one on air filters. Once the cotton fibers on the K&N are coated with oil they would be invisible until they have collected a lot of dust.
I used to be a mechanic and raced minis. Back then I ran open velocity stacks on my Webber carb because there werent any decent air filters available. Since then I have used K&N because they last forever, filter well and dont need to be cleaned very often. If they are cleaned, dried and oiled properly then they wont clog up any sensors. 👍
@luckycruiser - Have a laboratory oil analysis done on your engine using a paper element filer for X amount of miles. Then do the same thing but using an oil wetted cotton gauze oil filter. Note the differences.
I've heard countless stories from mechanics and dealerships about those reusable snake oil filters like K&N letting dust through. No matter what the test results or car mechanic testimonials, you'll never convince the K&N crowd, they just accuse the dealerships of running a conspiracy of bad mouthing these snake oil performance filters so they can sell their OEM paper filters. Do you really want to use an air filter in dusty conditions that you can see light through?