The problem I have with people saying Coors Effect, is that Willie Mays, Mel Ott, John McGraw and Monte Irvin played in the polo grounds, and all of them are hall of famers
I agree. It doesnt matter where you play, because if it that was true, then the Rockies would be a top offense and top home run team almost every year .
Mel Ott adjusted his weird lefty swing to hit rising line drives down the right field line, as the fence was just 257 feet from home plate. Do you know what his home/road HR split is? It's ridiculous, is what it is: 323 homers at the Polo Grounds, 188 on the road. BUT...! How many batters were as successful as him at adapting to their home field advantages? Not too many. Then his career BA split shows he was 14 points higher ON THE ROAD than at home, plus he hit almost twice as many doubles and more than twice as many triples. Once you take a closer look, it becomes apparent that Ott was quite the impressive adapting master batsman.
@@ernestolombardo5811 and that's what baseball is all about. If ballparks mattered, no one would be in the HpF. Every ballpark is different unlike any other sport where the playing field is always the same size, baseball fields are all different.
True but Coors is still exceptional. Not only does the ball pops up, but the curve ball doesn't curve and the sinkers doesn't sink, making it totally different game.
@@bkam7079 Yes, teh ball just sails away at Coors. Pop ups can be HRs, I've seen it live. There is no comparison between Coors and teh rest of MLB parks,
A career .905 ops on the road from Walker is not just an "all star caliber" talent. Ken Griffey Jr had a career .860 road ops. Derek Jeter has a career .801 road ops. Miguel Cabrera has a career .900 road ops. Albert Pujols has a career .918 road ops. this essentially puts Larry Walker between Miguel Cabrera and Albert Pujols in road ops..... .905 is a FANTASTIC number for a full career. Other than that great video.
Todd Helton was criminally underrated. He just happened to play in the era with the best 1st Baseman in MLB History. Jim Thome Mark Teixeira Fred McGriff Albert Pujols Prince Fielder Justin Morneau Adrian Gonzalez Carlos Pena Miguel Cabrera Derek Lee Carlos Delgado Paul Konerko Joey Votto Travis Hafner Ryan Howard Jason Giambi Etc.
He was literally a neighbor. Lived in the gated community across the fence in Thornton. What a super nice guy. His daughter went to my step son's school. He always took time to visit with all the kids in that small school when he would come in the off season. Class act player, class act person. Would love to see him in the HoF
I’ll always respect Dodger fans for their respect of Todd. The standing ovation he got on his last AB is amazing. I’m glad you guys got a ring and hate the Astros along with you.
I don’t like how the colors effect is used to say a player is worse than their stats show because it just implies that you can’t play on the rockies while also getting the credit you deserve as a very good player.
@@allenelliott2114 Eh I mean technically that's true but apparently he only played like 3 games and then he got injured and Peyton took over and dominated the rest. So Helton was a backup to peyton manning for longer than vice versa.
I think it’s dumb holding the Coors Field effect against some of these players, because why have a team in Colorado if the MLB and writers not gonna look at their team the same way as they do with other markets
If I owned the Colorado Rockies, I’d construct a gigantic green monster... er, purple monster towering over the outfield so we can finally develop good pitching.
As a lifelong Padres fan I remember Helton tearing the cover off of the ball at Petco Park on cold spring nights through the marine layer pretty damn often. Definitely deserves a spot in Cooperstown.
The other Coors field effect people never talk about is how hard it is to play any sport at altitude. It takes longer to recover, you have less stamina, muscles get to their peek output faster, lung capacity is diminished, and a few other things I can't remember. The fact he performed as well as he did for as long as he did and still put up the number he did away from Denver is not only impressive but I dare anyone to play a whole season of any sport at altitude and say it was easier, because it's not. He got in finally and deservedly so just crazy people only talk about the benefits of playing there and say nothing about the negatives.
Todd Helton is absolutely a Hall of Fame player. Every positive Coors Field adds are also removed on the road. Outside of injuries and playoffs, the amount of games played at home are equal to on the road. And there isn’t a pitcher during Helton’s career who wasn’t absolutely terrified of number 17, home or away. Add is Helton’s superb defense, there is no question he is a deserving member of the Cooperstown. Besides high altitude doesn’t help put bat to ball.
Lifelong Rockies fan, great video. I missed Helton's prime, but I got to enjoy seeing a lot of his career from 2006-2013 and he was always a joy to watch, especially in the 2007 run. Todd is just a Rockies icon, and while his power numbers are a little low for a first baseman, despite the Coors Field effect, I think he should get to the Hall eventually because of staying with one team, his career batting average, doubles and being one of the best of all time defensively at first base. The amount of errors he saved over the years by picking balls out of the dirt was invaluable.
I wonder if the reason we see such a difference between home and away stats for players in Colorado isn't just the air is thinner so the ball can travel farther, it's that when Colorado players are on the road the ball acts differently when it's being pitched and it is something they are not accustomed to seeing.
There's a lot of evidence that this is the case. Generally it takes 2-3 road games for players to adjust to the different movement at sea level. Losing an entire series to the Coors hangover is incredibly hard to deal with over and over again during the course of a season. An argument can be made that playing for the Rockies is actually harder for hitters, not easier.
This man caused anxiousness and uncertainty every time he came up to bat for us Dodgers fans. I think he did enough to merit a HOF induction. His numbers are excellent for his position and, like you said, he has a positive narrative that will help his case.
Helton was an elite talent. When the MLB began to require gameballs to be stored in a humidor, there was a steep decline in homers hit from Coors Field, yet Helton's numbers remained consistent. He deserves to be in the Hall.
The Coors Effect is slightly more complicated than just the altitude making balls fly further. In reality, the Coors Effect is multifold, and there are multiple reasons why Coors Field is a hitter friendly park. 1. Dry, cold Denver air dries out baseballs and makes them bounce off the bat harder. This has been at least somewhat mitigated since the introduction of the humidor. 2. Coors Field has the largest outfield in MLB, giving more chances for batted balls to find holes. 3. Due to the thin air, breaking balls break softer, giving the hitter an advantage at the plate.
I agree with your reasons why there is more than one reason for Colorado to be a hitter friendly park, but I just want to throw the reverse Coors effect out there as well. Coors also provides an extreme disadvantage for Rockies players when they go on the road called the reverse Coors effect (especially in the other NL West pitcher friendly parks). The fact that a player will constantly have to reacclimate themselves each road trip to a much more different breaking ball than they get at home heavily disadvantages Rockies hitters. Look at DJ Lemahieu, Matt Holiday, and other Rockies players who had much better road numbers when they left Colorado.
People talk about votto as a just shy player But his career WAR is 1 below the threshold for the “average” HOF 1B. Meaning many people below him are in it. The average is also raised by the outliers (goats like Gehrig). He is also still active
Splits will always be tough for Rockies players. They play 81 games at Coors then the majority of their road games at ballparks in San Diego and San Francisco. Then they go to L.A. and face both Dodger stadium and Dodger pitching. I don't think you will find many divisions with that kind of disparity in the home team's ballpark situations.
I forget which player said this but they said that the "Coor's Effect" gets canceled out because although your stats get a bump at home your body takes a hit because you're living at altitude. So playing at home is more exhausting for the Rockies than any other team. I had never heard that mentioned before but it makes perfect sense.
As a Rockies fan, the biggest advantage of coors isn’t how far the balls fly, but how large the outfield is to compensate. Home run numbers aren’t a huge outlier but batting average is
I am a Rockies fan so don’t take my words too seriously but the coors field effect can also be negative because it makes it harder to hit in away games than those who don’t play at coors field
As a Rockie fan, if people are gonna hold Coors field against our hitters, then hold Kershaw responsible for pitching in Dodgers stadium and all the other great pitchers for pitching in a pitcher park. I need that same energy!
I love being a jays fan, where rumors from toronto say everyone can be signed and then seeing top sources say that they are all going to the yankees or the red sox
Only about 20 players have a career slash line over .300/.400/.500 and with the exception of Manny and Shoeless Joe all the others are in the HOF, therefore Todd Helton belongs, period. Also, if playing at mile high altitude is such an 'advantage', how come the Rockies' line ups are not loaded with .300 hitters and sluggers hitting 40 HR per year ??? He and Larry Walker were the only ones playing there with HOF caliber stats, something that speaks volumes about their talent.
I just dont see any sluggers getting into the hall of fame with less than 400 career home runs, unless they were great average hitters who hit many doubles. But yeah, Coors Field pre-2010 cannot be denied of its effect. Thats why you gotta see their road numbers as well.
It is almost impossible for an offensive player get a MVP playing for the Rookies in fact the only player is Larry Walker in 1997, now how come Ubaldo Jiménez didn’t get the Cy-Young in 2010 after having a record of 19-8 and ERA of 2.88 while playing in Col.
Having an OPS of over .850 for 10 straight seasons, having 100 or more rbis for 5 straight seasons, and having 30 or more home runs in 6 straight seasons, winning 3 gold gloves, and being a top 3 offensive player on a team that won a pennant is good enough for the hall of fame in my opinion. I might be wrong, but it seems like it would be harder to field at coors than anywhere else, even if you are playing first base, and while he did get to bat for half the season in Colorado, that shouldn’t automatically disqualify him from consideration.
I will die on this hill. Hitting at Coors field is more of a detriment to major league hitters than it is a benefit, especially now. Every Rockies player that has been asked has said that the adjustments they need to make to pitching on the road outweigh the benefits of hitting at Coors. People need to stop acting like playing for the Rockies automatically makes you an elite hitter; look at the Rockies teams of the past 2 seasons, it definitely doesn't. It wasn't a big deal, more of an irritating fan perception kind of thing. But now it's affecting the Hall of Fame case of a guy who should clearly be a hall of famer. Every sportswriter that cites Coors as the reason they didn't vote for Helton should literally be stripped of their vote.
Nomar was great, as a Sox fan.. I remember being so sad when he left and then so happy the next year when we won the World Series (but also a little sad he wasn’t on the team)
would have been nice if you touched on the disadvantage rockies players play with on the road. Constantly adjusting how much pitches break. Simply looking at rockies road numbers is not an accurate portrayal of their production.
For real, he’s way better than Harold Baines(38.7) or Jim Rice(47.7) who are both recent inductions. At least Baines is a nice guy who got voted in by his buddies on the Today’s Game committee, so can’t blame the BBWAA for that. Rice being voted in by the baseball writers OTOH is pretty inexcusable.
Helton isn’t one of the top twenty first baseman of all time, but I would say he’s a quality lower-tier HoFer, a bit better than Cepeda but below Frank Thomas. I feel like he’s similar to Bill Terry - both benefited from high offense environments with relatively short careers. However, both were very good hitters for a decade, hit for both a very high average and good power, played excellent defense and left a tangible impact on their respective franchises. To me, that’s a lower tier HoFer, but still clearly a HoFer nonetheless.
He deserves it. Staying with a team that sucks shouldn't hinder HoF chances. The HoF is for individuals and a championship isnt something players can control on am individual level. Also, enough with WAR and all these new stats. Baseball was perfect without these stupid new stats
When I think about baseball I think about his stretch in 2007 and him throwing his arms up in the air as a native Coloradan he is by far my favorite player, side note when he got his dui he took his truck to my uncles car shop to get the breathalyzer put in, I was there that day and he told me “you gotta explode through the ball” that was it but my confidence went through the roof that season
People are always showing the Home/Road splits on Rockies hitters to illustrate that Coors Field is taking an average hitter and making them great. There are two parts to this though, and everyone, including this video, only show one part. Sure Coors Field is a great hitters park. The second part is that the Rockies players play 9 games each season in LA, SF and SD. That is a big reason why their home/road splits are so dramatic. The Rockies hitters have the worst road ballpark in MLB (my opinion). Their stats are pumped while playing in Denver, and deflated more than others while playing on the road.
Considering how advanced stats have placed some HOF candidates under a different light, how as you mentioned Larry Walker slowly rose in percentage of votes because of this, I suggest you could do a video on a similar, fascinating pitching case - Bert "Be Home" Blyleven.
If you consider the glove, and his road stats.....I think you gotta give it to him. Certainly average and extra base hits are exaggerated in Coors. The poor outfielders have too much ground to cover. Still.....
And just so you big fans of his understand, he was a really good hitter, but take away the light air at a Mile High and he would be that guy in most team's lineups who was really good and batted second and batted .300 and hit 15-20 hr but hit ahead of the HOFer, and the issue he didn't do this for 20 yrs like a Jeter who got in because he played so long and got 3500 hits or whatever (oh and because the yanks won 5 times with him)
I have the same back condition and the fact that the man was able to play like that with degenerative disk disease blows my mind and automatically trumps anything a naysayer could argue against him in the HOF.
The main issue I have with the HOF is the insistence on ONLY taking into account career-long statistics and totally ignoring notable season-long ones. If you have one amazing year in which you drag an otherwise so-so team to glory, break records, smash expectations... I don't care what the rest of your career looks like. If you did this, you blew the world away, you made kids MLB fans for life, you became a household name and you did what 99% of MLB players could barely dream of. I don't care if you hit the league average for your first 6 seasons, your last 6 seasons, and retired injured before your 14th season. If your 7th season rocked the world, that's all that should matter. You did what was needed, when it was needed. Heck... what's the point in the frankly flabergasting 162 game season, if it's not there to mean that a season filters out flash-in-the-pan anomalies? If you scored goals in every match in 2 World Cups, then that's only 16 goals... but you also took a country to incredible, world stunning glory and no one could say you weren't amazing.
If you scored a goal in every match of two World Cups, and made finals and/or won it (by playing 8 matches) then you would be universally considered one of the all-time greats in soccer history...among the top handful....
@@pullt Indeed you would. And if you never scored an international goal before or after, would that stop people from seeing you as one of the greatest of all time? That example is an exaggeration, but I'm sure you get my point, and it should be the same in all sports, "He only hit .395 for two seasons, he was kind of average for the rest of his career." Shouldn't be an argument that prevents someone who dragged a team to back-to-back World Series glory from entering the HOF. Incredible peaks should be recognised, as well as long, consistent careers.
@@apocrypha5363 For me, it comes down to baseball being the "marathon not a sprint"....162 games, then a postseason. The sport itself is characterized by longer term success than other sports. A good contrast would be Terrell Davis in the NFL. Played 78 regular season games in his career plus 8 playoff games. In baseball terms, he's nothing special....55th all time in rushing yards. He basically played 4 seasons, plus 3 more where he had little value. But for a peak he's got the two rings, the 2000yd season, 3 TDs in a Super Bowl, 12 TDs in playoffs. For football, this brief dominance meshes well for all all-time great, due to the nature of the sport. Really the only great-but-short MLB careers are ones the likes of Munson, Richard, Belle, Gooden, where there's a good bit of tragedy
@@pullt I'd personally say that 2 or 3 very good seasons is enough of a marathon. 3 seasons is 'only' around 450 matches (as almost no player will play every single match), maybe 'only' 1,500-2,000 at bats, I'd consider that to be a lengthy enough peak to be considered significant enough to reward and recognise regardless of slightly lower averages attained during the rest of a career. 450 matches is not a flash in the pan or an anomaly, and to the team and the fans it brings glory to, the people who remember it for the rest of their lives, it's not insignificant... and again, I'm not saying *only* take 2-3 year peaks into account and never take into account career-long sustained success, just that the former shouldn't be *completely* ignored in favour of the latter.
Even away from Coors Field, Todd Helton's best was better than a lot of player's best. It's so fascinating to see such a complete player. Honestly, his problem is career longevity. If his career lasted a bit longer, there'd be almost no question about his HoF case.
The same people who judge Rockies players because of coors field, they end up praising the Yankees and Red Sox, if the Rockies don’t make it, neither should any Yankees or Red Sox players, it’s stupid how just because they are an older team everyone let’s those things fly, but judges Colorado players
If he played in a larger market he'd already be in. The "Coors effect" is way overrated; home road split discrepancies are explained more by how hard it is to transition from altitude back to sea level. Pitches move differently at 5000ft than they do at 800 ft. Ask Blackmon or Arenado.
wait, if we should put a discount on great hall of fame stats coming out of hitter parks, should we add value to an all star caliber career in pitcher parks?
Where a player spent most of their career should have absolutely no affect on their hall of fame case. It would be stupid to argue that Clayton Kershaw shouldn't be a hall of famer because he spent his whole career in a pitcher's park, just like it would be stupid to argue Helton shouldn't get in because he spent his whole career in Colorado.
Small note Helton isn’t the only number retired by the Rockies walker did technically get his number retired but there hasn’t been an official ceremony because of covid
Anybody who ever played for the Yankees played at Yankee Stadium but they never bring that up not like a ballpark really matters anyways but if you bringing up Coors Field hitters you got ta bring up Yankee Stadium hitters
I always thought of him as a fantastic hitter, regardless of the added carry of Coors. Dude averaged a 12%K rate for his career while slugging .540. He just put solid wood on everything he touched, not his fault he played in Denver.
When talking about the Coors Effect you cant show only one side of it. When spending short periods of time between the different levels it effects the players bodies when they play on the road. It is not that they are worse on the road it is that their body is adjusting to the different atmospheric pressure. Trevor Bauer got into this with Blackmon and Daniel Murphy where they talk about the effect that it has on them. There is as much negative to your stats by playing there as the positive. This why you do a disservice to Rockies players by not looking at the blended stats.
I hate that people (and voters) make such a big deal over the Coors effect. It's a baseball team with a stadium that favors hitters, so what. That's just baseball. If you're going to make the argument, argue players from history the played in hitter friendly parks. If you're that vehement about the effect, then petition to relocate the team. Its unfair to the players there that you say their overall stats don't really count (or with an asterisk) because they play half their games at home. To me, if a guy has a .316 avg, almost 400 homers, and about 1500 rbis, that's a hall of famer to me.
Carlos Delgado I think should be in the hall of fame 473 home runs so close to 500! Also David wright his injuries ruined his career but was 7 time all star and missed basically 4 years
The thing about home vs. away splits is that virtually every player in virtually every major team sport does better at home than they do on the road. It's a product of sleeping in their own bed, eating their own wife's cooking, driving their own car, and just being all-around more relaxed at home than when jet lagged on the road. It's why home field/ice/floor/stadium advantage is always talked about as having such importance. So those kind of splits really mean very little.
The HoF isnt just got great stats, it's also meant for other things. A lot of players who died in WWII are in the HoF simply for their military service
Ray Schalk was a ridiculous defensive asset in his era and also redefined the way the game is played from the catcher's position. He's in for his game calling, positional innovation, and also for playing his guts out in an attempt to win the 1918 World Series as a member of the Black Sox scandal team. He's not in for his contribution with a bat in his hand.
Has a Rockies fan for their entire existence I will say he was never my favorite first baseman that would be Andres galarraga, but I appreciate everything helton did for the Rockies and yes he deserves it
Easy yes from a Big Hall guy, both on statistical merit and “Fame.” An iconic Rockies player. Huge logjam of worthy names and overlooked legends, but I’d gladly argue for him.
As a Cardinals fan, I saw all of the evidence that Helton is a god tier first baseman. He hit like 450 for his career against us and regularly pulled fuckery at first base (ex: tricking Matt Carpenter into thinking he didn’t have the ball, when he did)
You may have learned that Nomar Garciaparra was better than you thought. And I learned that Todd’s swing was BUTTER man! I’m pretty young so he was a little before my time but his swing is up there with Griffey imo
The HoF voters should note though that a guy like DJ LeMahieu who was a Rockie for the first 6 years of his career become a beast in Yankees stadium which while hitter friendly isn't a hitter friendly as Coors' Field
And he deserves to be! Honestly, the actual worst player in the HoF is undoubtedly Tommy McCarthy, followed by the likes of Jesse Haines, Jake Beckley, Joe Tinker, Rube Marquard, and the immortal George Kelly.
@@ryanthompsonthompson820 I give him extra credit for the time he played in (Catchers didn’t last so long nor play as often per season back then) and the lack of other HoF catchers from that era (Ray Shalk is the only one otherwise). He was also an excellent player for several championship teams, was renown for his leadership, and deserves partial credit for the innovation of certain pieces of catching equipment. He’s a lower tier guy, the threshold of what I consider the standard, but he’s still deserving in my opinion.
@@warlordofbritannia I probably put to much emphasis on stats. He had less than 1,300 hits, batted .279, and had only 26 homeruns. I still think he should not be in the Hall of Fame.
The cream will always rise to the top, Helton will get in, he is too great of a hitter not to be. Look at Edgar Martinez, just as great of a hitter, but the DH thing held him out for a while. Team loyalty of Edgar and Helton are similar too.
Error at 5:34: it should say 369 HR, NOT RBI
nice
@@kevingohdcantgo10_0 nice
*eric cartman voice* NO SPORTS STORM! THATS A BAD SPORTS STORM!
10:53 the retired Walkers number this year, or actually maybe they are next year because of covid but the number either is retired or will be soon
Nice
As a Millenial Dodger Fan, I’ve seen plenty of evidence of why Todd deserves to be in the HoF
As a rockies fan thank you. And also as a rockies fan, fuck the dodgers
@@dirkdiggler. lol
@@dirkdiggler. as a padre fan I stand with you on that statement
Explain? You saying what team you’re a fan of doesn’t say anything.
@@dirkdiggler. as a Giants fan I third your comment lol
The problem I have with people saying Coors Effect, is that Willie Mays, Mel Ott, John McGraw and Monte Irvin played in the polo grounds, and all of them are hall of famers
I mean if I played at polo ground I would have hit 7 homers the other ways alone and at least 9 pulled, in about 20 games
I agree. It doesnt matter where you play, because if it that was true, then the Rockies would be a top offense and top home run team almost every year .
Mel Ott adjusted his weird lefty swing to hit rising line drives down the right field line, as the fence was just 257 feet from home plate.
Do you know what his home/road HR split is? It's ridiculous, is what it is: 323 homers at the Polo Grounds, 188 on the road.
BUT...! How many batters were as successful as him at adapting to their home field advantages? Not too many.
Then his career BA split shows he was 14 points higher ON THE ROAD than at home, plus he hit almost twice as many doubles and more than twice as many triples. Once you take a closer look, it becomes apparent that Ott was quite the impressive adapting master batsman.
@@ernestolombardo5811 and that's what baseball is all about. If ballparks mattered, no one would be in the HpF. Every ballpark is different unlike any other sport where the playing field is always the same size, baseball fields are all different.
@@ernestolombardo5811 exactly nobody was doubting his greatness why isn’t Todd Helton getting the same treatment as a hall of famer
Those 2000-2004 numbers proved he could hit away from Coors
If stadiums determine hof cases then no Yankee or red sox player should be in the hof
Facts when their fences barely pass the 300 foot mark
True but Coors is still exceptional. Not only does the ball pops up, but the curve ball doesn't curve and the sinkers doesn't sink, making it totally different game.
@@bkam7079 Yes, teh ball just sails away at Coors. Pop ups can be HRs, I've seen it live. There is no comparison between Coors and teh rest of MLB parks,
A career .905 ops on the road from Walker is not just an "all star caliber" talent.
Ken Griffey Jr had a career .860 road ops.
Derek Jeter has a career .801 road ops.
Miguel Cabrera has a career .900 road ops.
Albert Pujols has a career .918 road ops.
this essentially puts Larry Walker between Miguel Cabrera and Albert Pujols in road ops..... .905 is a FANTASTIC number for a full career. Other than that great video.
Todd Helton was criminally underrated. He just happened to play in the era with the best 1st Baseman in MLB History.
Jim Thome
Mark Teixeira
Fred McGriff
Albert Pujols
Prince Fielder
Justin Morneau
Adrian Gonzalez
Carlos Pena
Miguel Cabrera
Derek Lee
Carlos Delgado
Paul Konerko
Joey Votto
Travis Hafner
Ryan Howard
Jason Giambi
Etc.
Frank Thomas
And Helton was one of if not the best hitter of that group
@@chriswalkey2050 I wouldn't say hes the best. I mean Albert Pujols is there. But definitely top 3, maybe 2nd.
wasnt Miggy a 3rd baseman in the 2000s?
@@DeVine22305076 he was a first baseman at a point in Heltons career.
My favorite Colorado Rockies player ever. He should be in the hall of fame
Yup. I've been watching the Rockies since I was a little kid. I remember going to watch them at the old Mile High stadium before they got Coors Field.
He was literally a neighbor. Lived in the gated community across the fence in Thornton. What a super nice guy. His daughter went to my step son's school. He always took time to visit with all the kids in that small school when he would come in the off season. Class act player, class act person. Would love to see him in the HoF
I am a Dodgers fan and remember how much he scared me when he was at the plate. He deserves to be in.
I’ll always respect Dodger fans for their respect of Todd. The standing ovation he got on his last AB is amazing. I’m glad you guys got a ring and hate the Astros along with you.
I don’t like how the colors effect is used to say a player is worse than their stats show because it just implies that you can’t play on the rockies while also getting the credit you deserve as a very good player.
Nobody’s saying they aren’t good, just that their numbers are unfairly inflated due to the Coors effect.
Appreciate the shoutout! Lets get Todd Helton into the Hall of Fame!!
He was also Peyton Manning’s backup in college at Tennessee, and remains good friends with Peyton, who came to Helton’s last game in Denver in 2013
You got that flipped. Helton started at QB over Peyton at Tennessee
@@allenelliott2114 Eh I mean technically that's true but apparently he only played like 3 games and then he got injured and Peyton took over and dominated the rest. So Helton was a backup to peyton manning for longer than vice versa.
The main factor on Peyton coming to Denver too
It’s a joke if Helton doesn’t make it to the hall of fame at one point
I think it’s dumb holding the Coors Field effect against some of these players, because why have a team in Colorado if the MLB and writers not gonna look at their team the same way as they do with other markets
If I owned the Colorado Rockies, I’d construct a gigantic green monster... er, purple monster towering over the outfield so we can finally develop good pitching.
Hey Manaea!
@@theoneandonlycobruh Hey to you as well!
That is actually not a bad idea!
That would help solve the problem that people claim Coors field has. Making home runs more difficult without making the outfield too big to defend
They did. They made it 10% larger to compensate for the altitude, and that lead to the second largest acreage in the field. That leads to offense.
As a lifelong Padres fan I remember Helton tearing the cover off of the ball at Petco Park on cold spring nights through the marine layer pretty damn often. Definitely deserves a spot in Cooperstown.
The other Coors field effect people never talk about is how hard it is to play any sport at altitude. It takes longer to recover, you have less stamina, muscles get to their peek output faster, lung capacity is diminished, and a few other things I can't remember. The fact he performed as well as he did for as long as he did and still put up the number he did away from Denver is not only impressive but I dare anyone to play a whole season of any sport at altitude and say it was easier, because it's not. He got in finally and deservedly so just crazy people only talk about the benefits of playing there and say nothing about the negatives.
Playing at Coors Field also makes it harder to play away from the high elevation too so it evens out a bit and this isn't factored into OPS+ yet
Todd Helton is absolutely a Hall of Fame player. Every positive Coors Field adds are also removed on the road. Outside of injuries and playoffs, the amount of games played at home are equal to on the road. And there isn’t a pitcher during Helton’s career who wasn’t absolutely terrified of number 17, home or away. Add is Helton’s superb defense, there is no question he is a deserving member of the Cooperstown. Besides high altitude doesn’t help put bat to ball.
Take a look at Mark Teixera’s case
Lifelong Rockies fan, great video. I missed Helton's prime, but I got to enjoy seeing a lot of his career from 2006-2013 and he was always a joy to watch, especially in the 2007 run. Todd is just a Rockies icon, and while his power numbers are a little low for a first baseman, despite the Coors Field effect, I think he should get to the Hall eventually because of staying with one team, his career batting average, doubles and being one of the best of all time defensively at first base. The amount of errors he saved over the years by picking balls out of the dirt was invaluable.
I wonder if the reason we see such a difference between home and away stats for players in Colorado isn't just the air is thinner so the ball can travel farther, it's that when Colorado players are on the road the ball acts differently when it's being pitched and it is something they are not accustomed to seeing.
There's a lot of evidence that this is the case. Generally it takes 2-3 road games for players to adjust to the different movement at sea level. Losing an entire series to the Coors hangover is incredibly hard to deal with over and over again during the course of a season. An argument can be made that playing for the Rockies is actually harder for hitters, not easier.
This man caused anxiousness and uncertainty every time he came up to bat for us Dodgers fans. I think he did enough to merit a HOF induction. His numbers are excellent for his position and, like you said, he has a positive narrative that will help his case.
Same as Matt kemp caused us Rockies fans XD Matt kemp scared us Rockies fans!
Helton was an elite talent. When the MLB began to require gameballs to be stored in a humidor, there was a steep decline in homers hit from Coors Field, yet Helton's numbers remained consistent. He deserves to be in the Hall.
The Coors Effect is slightly more complicated than just the altitude making balls fly further. In reality, the Coors Effect is multifold, and there are multiple reasons why Coors Field is a hitter friendly park.
1. Dry, cold Denver air dries out baseballs and makes them bounce off the bat harder. This has been at least somewhat mitigated since the introduction of the humidor.
2. Coors Field has the largest outfield in MLB, giving more chances for batted balls to find holes.
3. Due to the thin air, breaking balls break softer, giving the hitter an advantage at the plate.
I agree with your reasons why there is more than one reason for Colorado to be a hitter friendly park, but I just want to throw the reverse Coors effect out there as well.
Coors also provides an extreme disadvantage for Rockies players when they go on the road called the reverse Coors effect (especially in the other NL West pitcher friendly parks).
The fact that a player will constantly have to reacclimate themselves each road trip to a much more different breaking ball than they get at home heavily disadvantages Rockies hitters.
Look at DJ Lemahieu, Matt Holiday, and other Rockies players who had much better road numbers when they left Colorado.
@@scottbaldwin1161 Considered mentioning this as a Rockies fan myself. Coors Hangover is definitely real and deserves some analysis
People talk about votto as a just shy player
But his career WAR is 1 below the threshold for the “average” HOF 1B. Meaning many people below him are in it. The average is also raised by the outliers (goats like Gehrig). He is also still active
When this briefly turned into a Nomar Garciapara video
Use this as a "I'm rooting for Edwin Jackson" button.
He could be the first player to play for half the league
Edit: in the 30 team era
I’d love to see you do a video on Paul Konerkos hall of fame case . Keep up the good work !
Splits will always be tough for Rockies players. They play 81 games at Coors then the majority of their road games at ballparks in San Diego and San Francisco. Then they go to L.A. and face both Dodger stadium and Dodger pitching. I don't think you will find many divisions with that kind of disparity in the home team's ballpark situations.
I forget which player said this but they said that the "Coor's Effect" gets canceled out because although your stats get a bump at home your body takes a hit because you're living at altitude. So playing at home is more exhausting for the Rockies than any other team. I had never heard that mentioned before but it makes perfect sense.
As a Rockies fan, the biggest advantage of coors isn’t how far the balls fly, but how large the outfield is to compensate. Home run numbers aren’t a huge outlier but batting average is
See what was ignored in that 2000 season was andruw jones having an 8.2 war and finishing 10th in mvp voting...
I am a Rockies fan so don’t take my words too seriously but the coors field effect can also be negative because it makes it harder to hit in away games than those who don’t play at coors field
Back here after Helton just got inducted
As a Rockie fan, if people are gonna hold Coors field against our hitters, then hold Kershaw responsible for pitching in Dodgers stadium and all the other great pitchers for pitching in a pitcher park. I need that same energy!
If he stayed hitting 25+ homes run a season, he would be a no doubt Hall of Famer, which gives him probably 450-500 HRs
Another great in depth dive! I'm thinking in 3 or 4 more years he will get in
I love being a jays fan, where rumors from toronto say everyone can be signed and then seeing top sources say that they are all going to the yankees or the red sox
Only about 20 players have a career slash line over .300/.400/.500 and with the exception of Manny and Shoeless Joe all the others are in the HOF, therefore Todd Helton belongs, period. Also, if playing at mile high altitude is such an 'advantage', how come the Rockies' line ups are not loaded with .300 hitters and sluggers hitting 40 HR per year ??? He and Larry Walker were the only ones playing there with HOF caliber stats, something that speaks volumes about their talent.
TODDFATHER
Also, so happy you made a rockies video. Nobody talks about them ever besides Arenado
I just dont see any sluggers getting into the hall of fame with less than 400 career home runs, unless they were great average hitters who hit many doubles. But yeah, Coors Field pre-2010 cannot be denied of its effect. Thats why you gotta see their road numbers as well.
It is almost impossible for an offensive player get a MVP playing for the Rookies in fact the only player is Larry Walker in 1997, now how come Ubaldo Jiménez didn’t get the Cy-Young in 2010 after having a record of 19-8 and ERA of 2.88 while playing in Col.
Having an OPS of over .850 for 10 straight seasons, having 100 or more rbis for 5 straight seasons, and having 30 or more home runs in 6 straight seasons, winning 3 gold gloves, and being a top 3 offensive player on a team that won a pennant is good enough for the hall of fame in my opinion. I might be wrong, but it seems like it would be harder to field at coors than anywhere else, even if you are playing first base, and while he did get to bat for half the season in Colorado, that shouldn’t automatically disqualify him from consideration.
I remember Jake peavy grooved him a pitch in which Helton crushed. Always considered Helton and Adrian Gonzales as hofs! Both were special players
I will die on this hill. Hitting at Coors field is more of a detriment to major league hitters than it is a benefit, especially now. Every Rockies player that has been asked has said that the adjustments they need to make to pitching on the road outweigh the benefits of hitting at Coors. People need to stop acting like playing for the Rockies automatically makes you an elite hitter; look at the Rockies teams of the past 2 seasons, it definitely doesn't.
It wasn't a big deal, more of an irritating fan perception kind of thing. But now it's affecting the Hall of Fame case of a guy who should clearly be a hall of famer. Every sportswriter that cites Coors as the reason they didn't vote for Helton should literally be stripped of their vote.
Nomar was great, as a Sox fan.. I remember being so sad when he left and then so happy the next year when we won the World Series (but also a little sad he wasn’t on the team)
Well put together as always. Keep it up
would have been nice if you touched on the disadvantage rockies players play with on the road. Constantly adjusting how much pitches break. Simply looking at rockies road numbers is not an accurate portrayal of their production.
Soriano got snubbed. And as a Red Sox fan talking about a Yankee this confuses me. Please make a video on him.
60 WAR is impressive HOF level and other player have cases with lower WARs as well like Catchers fir instance
For real, he’s way better than Harold Baines(38.7) or Jim Rice(47.7) who are both recent inductions.
At least Baines is a nice guy who got voted in by his buddies on the Today’s Game committee, so can’t blame the BBWAA for that.
Rice being voted in by the baseball writers OTOH is pretty inexcusable.
Helton isn’t one of the top twenty first baseman of all time, but I would say he’s a quality lower-tier HoFer, a bit better than Cepeda but below Frank Thomas.
I feel like he’s similar to Bill Terry - both benefited from high offense environments with relatively short careers. However, both were very good hitters for a decade, hit for both a very high average and good power, played excellent defense and left a tangible impact on their respective franchises.
To me, that’s a lower tier HoFer, but still clearly a HoFer nonetheless.
IMO, if you play an easy defensive position (1B) or DH, your batting better be transcendentally great if you want to be in the hall of fame.
He deserves it. Staying with a team that sucks shouldn't hinder HoF chances. The HoF is for individuals and a championship isnt something players can control on am individual level. Also, enough with WAR and all these new stats. Baseball was perfect without these stupid new stats
When I think about baseball I think about his stretch in 2007 and him throwing his arms up in the air as a native Coloradan he is by far my favorite player, side note when he got his dui he took his truck to my uncles car shop to get the breathalyzer put in, I was there that day and he told me “you gotta explode through the ball” that was it but my confidence went through the roof that season
People are always showing the Home/Road splits on Rockies hitters to illustrate that Coors Field is taking an average hitter and making them great. There are two parts to this though, and everyone, including this video, only show one part. Sure Coors Field is a great hitters park. The second part is that the Rockies players play 9 games each season in LA, SF and SD. That is a big reason why their home/road splits are so dramatic. The Rockies hitters have the worst road ballpark in MLB (my opinion). Their stats are pumped while playing in Denver, and deflated more than others while playing on the road.
Considering how advanced stats have placed some HOF candidates under a different light, how as you mentioned Larry Walker slowly rose in percentage of votes because of this, I suggest you could do a video on a similar, fascinating pitching case - Bert "Be Home" Blyleven.
If you consider the glove, and his road stats.....I think you gotta give it to him. Certainly average and extra base hits are exaggerated in Coors. The poor outfielders have too much ground to cover. Still.....
And just so you big fans of his understand, he was a really good hitter, but take away the light air at a Mile High and he would be that guy in most team's lineups who was really good and batted second and batted .300 and hit 15-20 hr but hit ahead of the HOFer, and the issue he didn't do this for 20 yrs like a Jeter who got in because he played so long and got 3500 hits or whatever (oh and because the yanks won 5 times with him)
Edwin Jackson: one of two inaugural inductees in the all-sports Hall of Journeyman (HOJ), along with Ryan Fitzpatrick.
I have the same back condition and the fact that the man was able to play like that with degenerative disk disease blows my mind and automatically trumps anything a naysayer could argue against him in the HOF.
The main issue I have with the HOF is the insistence on ONLY taking into account career-long statistics and totally ignoring notable season-long ones. If you have one amazing year in which you drag an otherwise so-so team to glory, break records, smash expectations... I don't care what the rest of your career looks like.
If you did this, you blew the world away, you made kids MLB fans for life, you became a household name and you did what 99% of MLB players could barely dream of. I don't care if you hit the league average for your first 6 seasons, your last 6 seasons, and retired injured before your 14th season. If your 7th season rocked the world, that's all that should matter. You did what was needed, when it was needed.
Heck... what's the point in the frankly flabergasting 162 game season, if it's not there to mean that a season filters out flash-in-the-pan anomalies?
If you scored goals in every match in 2 World Cups, then that's only 16 goals... but you also took a country to incredible, world stunning glory and no one could say you weren't amazing.
If you scored a goal in every match of two World Cups, and made finals and/or won it (by playing 8 matches) then you would be universally considered one of the all-time greats in soccer history...among the top handful....
@@pullt Indeed you would. And if you never scored an international goal before or after, would that stop people from seeing you as one of the greatest of all time?
That example is an exaggeration, but I'm sure you get my point, and it should be the same in all sports, "He only hit .395 for two seasons, he was kind of average for the rest of his career." Shouldn't be an argument that prevents someone who dragged a team to back-to-back World Series glory from entering the HOF.
Incredible peaks should be recognised, as well as long, consistent careers.
@@apocrypha5363 For me, it comes down to baseball being the "marathon not a sprint"....162 games, then a postseason. The sport itself is characterized by longer term success than other sports.
A good contrast would be Terrell Davis in the NFL.
Played 78 regular season games in his career plus 8 playoff games. In baseball terms, he's nothing special....55th all time in rushing yards. He basically played 4 seasons, plus 3 more where he had little value.
But for a peak he's got the two rings, the 2000yd season, 3 TDs in a Super Bowl, 12 TDs in playoffs.
For football, this brief dominance meshes well for all all-time great, due to the nature of the sport.
Really the only great-but-short MLB careers are ones the likes of Munson, Richard, Belle, Gooden, where there's a good bit of tragedy
@@pullt I'd personally say that 2 or 3 very good seasons is enough of a marathon.
3 seasons is 'only' around 450 matches (as almost no player will play every single match), maybe 'only' 1,500-2,000 at bats, I'd consider that to be a lengthy enough peak to be considered significant enough to reward and recognise regardless of slightly lower averages attained during the rest of a career. 450 matches is not a flash in the pan or an anomaly, and to the team and the fans it brings glory to, the people who remember it for the rest of their lives, it's not insignificant... and again, I'm not saying *only* take 2-3 year peaks into account and never take into account career-long sustained success, just that the former shouldn't be *completely* ignored in favour of the latter.
Even away from Coors Field, Todd Helton's best was better than a lot of player's best. It's so fascinating to see such a complete player.
Honestly, his problem is career longevity. If his career lasted a bit longer, there'd be almost no question about his HoF case.
Landius -no its not todd played 17 seasons he retired at 39 years old
Totally deserves to be in the hall. I followed his entire career same as walker and I believe he will be in the hall eventually.
Dodgers fan here. He should be in the HoF.
The same people who judge Rockies players because of coors field, they end up praising the Yankees and Red Sox, if the Rockies don’t make it, neither should any Yankees or Red Sox players, it’s stupid how just because they are an older team everyone let’s those things fly, but judges Colorado players
If he played in a larger market he'd already be in. The "Coors effect" is way overrated; home road split discrepancies are explained more by how hard it is to transition from altitude back to sea level. Pitches move differently at 5000ft than they do at 800 ft. Ask Blackmon or Arenado.
wait, if we should put a discount on great hall of fame stats coming out of hitter parks, should we add value to an all star caliber career in pitcher parks?
Where a player spent most of their career should have absolutely no affect on their hall of fame case. It would be stupid to argue that Clayton Kershaw shouldn't be a hall of famer because he spent his whole career in a pitcher's park, just like it would be stupid to argue Helton shouldn't get in because he spent his whole career in Colorado.
He deserves a hof tbh
Wow. Kerry Wood's rookie year was crazy. 233 strikeouts in only 166 innings. Jeez.
Small note Helton isn’t the only number retired by the Rockies walker did technically get his number retired but there hasn’t been an official ceremony because of covid
Anybody who ever played for the Yankees played at Yankee Stadium but they never bring that up not like a ballpark really matters anyways but if you bringing up Coors Field hitters you got ta bring up Yankee Stadium hitters
Love videos like this I'm a huge, big hall of fame guy and helton fits perfectly into that
I always thought of him as a fantastic hitter, regardless of the added carry of Coors. Dude averaged a 12%K rate for his career while slugging .540. He just put solid wood on everything he touched, not his fault he played in Denver.
When talking about the Coors Effect you cant show only one side of it. When spending short periods of time between the different levels it effects the players bodies when they play on the road. It is not that they are worse on the road it is that their body is adjusting to the different atmospheric pressure. Trevor Bauer got into this with Blackmon and Daniel Murphy where they talk about the effect that it has on them. There is as much negative to your stats by playing there as the positive. This why you do a disservice to Rockies players by not looking at the blended stats.
No HoF for Helton. Coors is a joke, the Right filed porch is a joke, cheapest HR in MLB. I once say Pujols hit a pop up that cleared teh porch.
Absolutely he should be in the HOF with a lifetime .316 batting average.
I hate that people (and voters) make such a big deal over the Coors effect. It's a baseball team with a stadium that favors hitters, so what. That's just baseball.
If you're going to make the argument, argue players from history the played in hitter friendly parks. If you're that vehement about the effect, then petition to relocate the team. Its unfair to the players there that you say their overall stats don't really count (or with an asterisk) because they play half their games at home.
To me, if a guy has a .316 avg, almost 400 homers, and about 1500 rbis, that's a hall of famer to me.
Carlos Delgado I think should be in the hall of fame 473 home runs so close to 500! Also David wright his injuries ruined his career but was 7 time all star and missed basically 4 years
The thing about home vs. away splits is that virtually every player in virtually every major team sport does better at home than they do on the road. It's a product of sleeping in their own bed, eating their own wife's cooking, driving their own car, and just being all-around more relaxed at home than when jet lagged on the road. It's why home field/ice/floor/stadium advantage is always talked about as having such importance. So those kind of splits really mean very little.
No. They mean a lot.
Cut the crap.
like how is people like ray schalk in the HOF? He batted .254 and 11 homers in his whole career.
The HoF isnt just got great stats, it's also meant for other things. A lot of players who died in WWII are in the HoF simply for their military service
Ray Schalk was a ridiculous defensive asset in his era and also redefined the way the game is played from the catcher's position. He's in for his game calling, positional innovation, and also for playing his guts out in an attempt to win the 1918 World Series as a member of the Black Sox scandal team. He's not in for his contribution with a bat in his hand.
It’s close, but I do think he should be in the HOF. He was a great hitter in his prime, even accounting for his playing at Coors.
Jason Kendall - The Hall of Fame Case
Has a Rockies fan for their entire existence I will say he was never my favorite first baseman that would be Andres galarraga, but I appreciate everything helton did for the Rockies and yes he deserves it
Easy yes from a Big Hall guy, both on statistical merit and “Fame.” An iconic Rockies player. Huge logjam of worthy names and overlooked legends, but I’d gladly argue for him.
Great video if you keep grinding you and your eating will definitely get noticed
Why don’t the Rockies just move the walls of the outfield back to compensate for the altitude? Am I crazy or does this make sense and fix everything.
So we gonna pretend that Jimmy Rollins didnt get more votes then Todd Helton?
As a Cardinals fan,
I saw all of the evidence that Helton is a god tier first baseman. He hit like 450 for his career against us and regularly pulled fuckery at first base (ex: tricking Matt Carpenter into thinking he didn’t have the ball, when he did)
You may have learned that Nomar Garciaparra was better than you thought. And I learned that Todd’s swing was BUTTER man! I’m pretty young so he was a little before my time but his swing is up there with Griffey imo
Do Konerko next!!!
Todd should be in the Hall
The HoF voters should note though that a guy like DJ LeMahieu who was a Rockie for the first 6 years of his career become a beast in Yankees stadium which while hitter friendly isn't a hitter friendly as Coors' Field
Please do Don Mattingly.
Fun fact: Roger Bresnahan is in the Hall of Fame.
And he deserves to be!
Honestly, the actual worst player in the HoF is undoubtedly Tommy McCarthy, followed by the likes of Jesse Haines, Jake Beckley, Joe Tinker, Rube Marquard, and the immortal George Kelly.
@@warlordofbritannia Why do you think Roger deserves the Hall of Fame?
@@ryanthompsonthompson820
I give him extra credit for the time he played in (Catchers didn’t last so long nor play as often per season back then) and the lack of other HoF catchers from that era (Ray Shalk is the only one otherwise). He was also an excellent player for several championship teams, was renown for his leadership, and deserves partial credit for the innovation of certain pieces of catching equipment.
He’s a lower tier guy, the threshold of what I consider the standard, but he’s still deserving in my opinion.
@@warlordofbritannia I probably put to much emphasis on stats. He had less than 1,300 hits, batted .279, and had only 26 homeruns. I still think he should not be in the Hall of Fame.
The Coors Effect really only matters with home runs. Take away his homers, and Helton still has 2200 hits and a .316 career BA.
The cream will always rise to the top, Helton will get in, he is too great of a hitter not to be. Look at Edgar Martinez, just as great of a hitter, but the DH thing held him out for a while. Team loyalty of Edgar and Helton are similar too.
Compete 1st Baseman getting in with the media ignoring him in Colorado makes his HOF induction an uphill battle
Please do Bobby Grich!
I don’t think many players that played for Colorado will ever make it to the Hall. Unfair too.