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As an electrician for many years now, I do understand the reasoning behind it, but I just wanted to compliment you on a very easy to understand explanation.
This is hands down one of the best explanations I've seen on this. Usually when this is discussed they only of what you do and not why you are doing it. Good work.
I have a vivid memory from about 1974, when I jumped on a section of chain link outside a neighbors house. My friend pulled me off as I was “stuck” to it. The father had grounded the dryer to the fence (as I recall)
This is a perfect explanation but it’s also important to recognize how dangerous it is to disconnect a ground wire or what happens if a conduit is broken because there would be a potential difference across the disconnected path. In other words never assume that a ground wire is dead because it can get you when you disconnect it.
Here’s one that baffles me - you have a range or dryer with 3 terminals and ground. The instructions tell you in a 2 wire install (older homes) to connect the neutral and ground on the device together. I was thinking this through, and became real to me when I tried to use a 40-amp gfci breaker and it kept tripping. Often the logic boards or a motor are 120v, so they are technically flowing neutral current through ground (and the shell of the device), and if at some point a fault occurs, or the grounding conductor comes loose, that shell now becomes live. I was taking some lineman courses and they were talking about the requirements for parallel grounding of disconnected lines due the possibility of picking up on emf current simply from being next to an energized wire or the wind blowing. This stuff is serious and we take so much for granted. Sorry for the rant, but there is a lot behind how we ground. God bless and thanks for all your work.
I've watched lots of RUclips videos trying to understand this concept. I'm a visual person and I also want to know why something works. If I just memorize rules I don't remember it near as well. I can rethink the process you described and refresh my memory. You did a great job! Thank you!
I learned so much from your videos today, this one in particular. To show my appreciation I'm even watching the ads til the end, well most of them anyways. Thank you very much.
GREAT VIDEO!!! I love the way you used the diagram of current flow. That made it very clear what could happen. You were also using correct electrical units describing current flow for what it is and no words like "power flowing". Nice job all around. Thanks!! Wish you would do video on generator transfer switching.
Thank you Electrical Code Coach! I subbed to your channel and appreciate the knowledge and wisdom you share sir. May GOD bless you! You have inspired me to raise my skill level and go into being am electrician apprentice and praying more in time.
Like to THANK the video for clarifying very important topic around everything electric in the house, ground surfaces need only ground connections, so there is NEVER a remote chance for white neutral wire returning any hot AC current to a ground somewhere much further to be connected with metal surfaces of devices because they are/were not separated like they should be at 1st point of disconnect in the local house circuit ... only like to say I wish I knew ... this as teenager hooking up stuff for self and other people free but no reports of injury thus far ... but perfection is everything ... so with new information in mind everything will be checked, corrected and perfected when building NEW ...
My problem with this is that I installed a 30 amp sub-panel for my RV and there was only one bar in the panel for attaching ground wires and neutral wires. That 's way the panel was manufactured. By what you're saying here I assume the neutral bar should be insulated from the panel body?
No, there are many panels where they are all bonded together, definitely work with a qualified license electrician in your local electrical inspector on this one
As a EE from long ago, I loved this explanation. I'm not a full-time sparky, but do a fair amount of work on 100+ year old homes and buildings and the amount of knowledge that I've forgotten is high. Never too proud to got back and review the basics. Also, have to check out the NEC and updates even though so much existing stuff is sooooo old. Where I live, NM is verboten so gnd wires don't exist as in the NM world.
Excellent job. Something to remember is that all conductors are also resistors. The human body is also a conductor/resistor and all the metal components in our electrical systems are also conductor/resistors. When you put resistors in parallel in a circuit the total resistance will be less than the lowest resistance value in the circuit.
I had solar installed several years ago and shortly after I needed to replace my main panel due to main breaker buss issues and to expand the number of circuits. In the process of removing the old panel I found that the neutrals and grounds were still bonded together, which at that point the main panel would have been a sub-panel due to the solar having a main disconnect after the meter head. I was surprised to see that seeing as the solar installation had to be inspected by the NEC/Underwriters inspector before being energized. I separated the grounds and neutrals in the main panel. Thanks for the great video.
What if you only have 3 wires, (2 hots, 1 neutral) coming from the Meter to the house which is about 85 feet apart. my question is do we still bond the ground and neutral at the house service panel? And does there need to be a ground rod at the house? Thanks
I cant find answer to my question. I have a 4 pole breaker as my first disconnect, which obviously disconnects the neutral. So should i bond Earth Neutral before or after the 4 Pole breaker?
If I could Give more than one thumbs up you would get a crap load from me. Best explanation I have ever seen by far. Almost 40 years in the trades. You nailed it.
@7:00 side note, the panel and rigid will only be energized if you bonded the neutral bar to the panel which like youve been saying they should be seperated at every other means of discconect but also unbonded.
In workers camp.....a hot/cold shower mixer has a 10 volts AC from those copper plumbings with the concrete in the bathroom. When the earth cable in the water heater was disconnected. Now it's fine. Didn't bother to troubleshoot specially those were old facility.
This is exactly what I need to talk about: If I have a 120v furnace and its "connected to a generator only during outages" generator manual says its bonded that should work and be fine....but if the furnace is still grounded to the house via the casing so that in a sense is connected to the house ground and neutral what happens when power is restored ? any help is much appreciated.
Hi. Thanks for the video; I'm leaning, been doing, etc. Question: in your perfect scenario where the light bulb is lit with the current and the current passing through back to meter/shutoff where the neutral is bonded ground. Wouldn't current go to ground and neutral back to the source? If that was the case if it went to ground there, then the panel would hot also? I'm trying to clear in my head what happens at he first disconnect.... Thank you again for your video.
Awesome explanation. Reminds me of some electrical faults I saw on boats, where the (12v, thank goodness) current was getting drawn the wrong way through the circuit because there was a better ground in an unanticipated place. The ground from one circuit was functioning as the hot for a second circuit. Hard for an amateur like me to wrap my head around sometimes.
AWESOME video! Quick question. I'm looking to do two subpanels in series (garage subpanel connects to shed subpanel for multiple local branch circuits for shed lighting, 240v air compressor circuit, and outlets). Given what you've stated in this video and your out building series, I'm guessing BOTH subpanels need their own ground circuits (separate grounding rods and equipment ground in series from the originating structure) and BOTH subpanels need to have their bonding screws removed?
So my 200 amp panel, only point of disconnect, only has about 14 neutral screws left but 20 spaces left for breakers. Obviously I am going to run out of neutral screws and I know you cannot double them up. What is the best way and most professional looking way to rectify that? Am I to assume I can just add another bus bar to panel and use for neutrals?
excellent explanation. under normal operating conditions, neutral may have current flowing through it (when unbalanced load), while ground wire will never have current under normal conditions.
How does the ground system work if the main panel did not have metallic conduit attached to a downstream sub panel? As in running power to a sub panel in a detached garage using uf direct burial wire.
I Get it!!!! This makes me wonder about my Old welding connector. off panel 2 in the garage. (no neutral) Off my sub panel. 2 BTW my panel 2 has the neutral; disconnected from the case. I worked on 5000 amp DC plants in a Telephone exchange building. We had a PHG (Personal Hazard Ground) and would measure to make sure this PHG had no current on it. Thanks. I had AC electricians tell me "Oh it is just DC" LOL Just subbed.
Hello Maestro, thank you for educating us, I have a question, my house was built in 1936 before you even born, the electrical installation is not grounded at all, all my electrical out lets only have the hot and the neutral, the main ( first point of disconnect ) box includes the meter, the neutral from the main entrance box ( first point of disconnect ) feeds the neutrals and also goes to ground thru a solid copper wire connected to the under ground water pipes in the property, I would like to ground what I can inside the house with new out lets installs, and ground those out lets with a 7 ft bar into the ground if that's the right way to do it, my question is, can I get away with just one bar in to the ground?? I see other videos using two bars in to the ground, 10 ft apart, connected together thru a wire, and also I would like to install the grounds bus strip in the same main box ( first point of disconnect ) now would I tap my new grounds bus strip in to the neutral strip in the main box ( first point of disconnect ) Appreciate your help, thanks in advance!!
This is soo true. I came off of a outside panel bow to hook up my camper and i would get a light shock, almost like a 12vlt shock and couldnt figure it out. I called in an electrician and it was this very thing.
in a proper system. at the first point of disconnect in the main panel. We are to bound ground to neutral. However, i would like to know if the metal case of the main panel will pose an electrical shock, since current will be flowing from the neutral to the ground on the main panel?
How about off grid inverter. It have ground on metal case/, i connect the case to ground the first panel also connect to ground. I do not connect my first breaker box to neutral, if i do connect neutral to ground of first panel it created spark short. The off grid eg4-6500 Ex sold by signature solar. The inverter to first 16 breaker box is 5-6 feet... thanks for your answer.
How do you test to verify grounds and neutrals are separate? I live in an old rent house, and while removing an old ceiling fan, was dismayed to discover 4 wires bound together in the box with an old connector type I do not recognize, but a combination of bare wires and insulated wires.
Great info. Do have a video explaining the connection to ground rods and grounding to gas and hot/cold water pipes? As I understand, I'm suppose to connect my first point of disconnect (meter base) to the rod rods. Do I connect the gas and hot/cold water pipes to the first point of disconnect, the load center, or either? Also, can you explain bonding between meter base to load center when using PVC vs EMT? Thanks.
I need to bury my service. It will come up to the structure on the east side instead of the west. The existing main panel is inside on the west. If I use a combo, meter socket/ emergency disconnect will I need to change the existing panel in order to separate my ground and neutral, or if needed, and as long as the neutral bar is not attached directly to the "can", can I add a ground bar to accommodate moving the grounds in that existing panel? Thanks and your videos are solid and much appreciated.
Great question, definitely work with a qualified electrician and your electrical inspector. If someone changes the scenario they're going to need to end up 4 feeder wirea if it is not already present and separate the grounds of neutrals while still maintaining bonding the can to the grounds
Making a super clear case for why we need to separate at any point after the first disconnect. Why do we need to connect ground and neutral at first disconnect?
Fine for romex but what about pipe? I have no ground wires in the entire house. All emt where the conduit is the ground and is attached to all the boxes, subpanels and refrigerator shells.
In your last picture (with bonded ground/neutral at both sub panels), would a non-contact voltage tester detect voltage on everything red (chandelier, fridge, conduit, etc.)
Great question, no you would not detect voltage most likely, but in these situations you can take an amp probe and read the amperage. Keep in mind that it's all flowing towards the source so you are only going to be reading objectional current that is in front of it heading back to the source.
So what happens if we don't have the disconnect at the meter and our first point is the breaker box? Now the neutrals and grounds are all connected and the chandelier and refrigerator are both part of the path. Why is that different?
It's possible to have objectional current anywhere they are bonded but we have to keep in mind that the current only flows toward the source it does not flow upstream.
I've always separated the ground from neutral at the breaker panel. The ground goes to the grounding rod, the neutral goes to the neutral side of the breaker panel and then the return side of the powerline. Anything else courts disaster.
I personally think NEC should mandate separate ground bus bars for all installations. Neutral bud bar and ground bud bar, then bond them together in main panel only. This makes moving to solar or Generator easier and safer when it isn’t done unknowingly to home owner
Does 230.91 require the service disconnect to be a ocpd/fuse? Or.. what if for example somebody decided to install first a non-fusible switch disconnect after the meter can? Would it be then legal to have your bond in this unprotected non-fusible disconnect and separate the ground and neutral in the first panel with OCPDs? Because we're not specifying what kind of disconnect it is. Just first means of disconnect. Once I had to argue that the meter is not the first means of disconnect because they confused the bypass lever for a disconnecting means.
Excellent explanation. I've been an electrician for 37 years. What surprises me is when I see a sub panel fed with 4 wires and they still didn't separate the grounds and neutrals. What did they think the purpose of the separate ground and neutral was?
Not sure about the NEC, but in the CEC(Canadian) the white wire in a 2 wire system is the ‘identified’ conductor. The green is the bonding conductor, not ground wire. The neutral by definition is the white wire of a 3 wire system. Neutral and identified are not interchangeable nor is ground and bonding interchangeable. Terminology is important when teaching. So if you are in Canada, the terminology used in this video is incorrect but the theory seems accurate.
Apparently, I'm grandfathered in with my older sub panel in the garage. The ground for it is separate, and I have no choice but to connect the neutrals and grounds in it anyhow. It's an older fused based panel with room for only one bank of neutrals and grounds.
How does this apply to solar or generators…do the neutrals need to be grounded at the disconnects and inverters (since there is power source on both ends)?
@@ElectricalCodeCoach Sometimes you can't get good information from the manufacturer. I feel that the whole subject of generators and or solar generators needs to be explained. In a scenario where a generator is connected to the house wiring through a transfer switch, would the transfer switch be the first disconnect? What if you can't easily separate the ground and neutral at the external power source, is there a safe way to connect the external power source to your service panel. Do both the neutral and hot leads need to be switched to the external power source? What if the transfer switch only switches the hot leads but passes the neutral and ground? I have tried to find these answers. From what I read, I think that the both the neutral and hot leads need to be switched on each individual circuit. I would love some clarification on this subject.
What if you have a disconnect box outside the house that is connected directly to the meter base that is feeding a breaker panel in a de-attached shop, No ground attached to the disconnect box but a separate ground rod connected to the shop breaker panel Should the ground and neutral be bonded in the shop panel?
Our first point of disconnect is equipped with ground fault sensor. Should we connect the ground and neutral is this situation? I became doubtful as one electrician told me not to connect ground and neutral if the 1st. point of disconnect has ground fault sensor.
So if there isn't a ground from the meter box, just the two hots and neutral, to a load center 75 feet away with a main breaker and two grounding rods are supplying the ground connection for it, are the neutral and grounds still separated?
i wish someone would cover rural underground triplex install where there is no 4th wire and many outbuildings in series. not every body lives in a modern subdivision.
You are correct, they often Bond there as well and at many other points in their system. Typically the general public is never going to be in contact with it.
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A year and a half into an electrician classroom , no teacher has ever explained it this way, please keep doing it!! 👏🏻
Let's go! Thanks for the feedback!
As an electrician for many years now, I do understand the reasoning behind it, but I just wanted to compliment you on a very easy to understand explanation.
Thank you!
This is hands down one of the best explanations I've seen on this. Usually when this is discussed they only of what you do and not why you are doing it. Good work.
Let's Go!!!
This guy is a very good instructor. I didn't have to restart the video. It was completely understood at every point.
Thank you for the kind words and support!
This is by far the best explanation for GND vs N
Let's go! Thank you.
I spent a day studying this concept for a course. You explained it far better in 10 mins. Well done!
I have asked licensed electricians plenty of times about the ground / neutral thing and not one could explain it. Now I can tell THEM! Great video.
Right on!
I have a vivid memory from about 1974, when I jumped on a section of chain link outside a neighbors house. My friend pulled me off as I was “stuck” to it. The father had grounded the dryer to the fence (as I recall)
Thank you I appreciate you
You're welcome, and I appreciate that!
Thanks!
You are very welcome!
This is a perfect explanation but it’s also important to recognize how dangerous it is to disconnect a ground wire or what happens if a conduit is broken because there would be a potential difference across the disconnected path. In other words never assume that a ground wire is dead because it can get you when you disconnect it.
This is the best tutorial i have ever seen. You have done an outstanding job explaining this..
Here’s one that baffles me - you have a range or dryer with 3 terminals and ground. The instructions tell you in a 2 wire install (older homes) to connect the neutral and ground on the device together. I was thinking this through, and became real to me when I tried to use a 40-amp gfci breaker and it kept tripping. Often the logic boards or a motor are 120v, so they are technically flowing neutral current through ground (and the shell of the device), and if at some point a fault occurs, or the grounding conductor comes loose, that shell now becomes live. I was taking some lineman courses and they were talking about the requirements for parallel grounding of disconnected lines due the possibility of picking up on emf current simply from being next to an energized wire or the wind blowing. This stuff is serious and we take so much for granted. Sorry for the rant, but there is a lot behind how we ground. God bless and thanks for all your work.
I've watched lots of RUclips videos trying to understand this concept. I'm a visual person and I also want to know why something works. If I just memorize rules I don't remember it near as well. I can rethink the process you described and refresh my memory. You did a great job! Thank you!
Thank You! I'm glad this helped.
Wow....the pictorial of this video makes it so easy to understand one of the most, if not the absolute, hardest concept of wiring & safety to grasp!
Let's Go!!
I learned so much from your videos today, this one in particular. To show my appreciation I'm even watching the ads til the end, well most of them anyways. Thank you very much.
I appreciate that bro! Lets get to it!!
Why is your channel not booming?? You should have more subscribers with the value you offer in each and every video.
Thank you for your kind words, I'm all about slow steady growth, it tends to stick around longer.
Wow much respect coach!! First video I've seen of yours and I immediately subscribed, you're great!!
Great graphics. Thank you.
You are very welcome
GREAT VIDEO!!! I love the way you used the diagram of current flow. That made it very clear what could happen. You were also using correct electrical units describing current flow for what it is and no words like "power flowing". Nice job all around. Thanks!! Wish you would do video on generator transfer switching.
Thank you i look for days for these
Thank you Electrical Code Coach! I subbed to your channel and appreciate the knowledge and wisdom you share sir. May GOD bless you!
You have inspired me to raise my skill level and go into being am electrician apprentice and praying more in time.
Like to THANK the video for clarifying very important topic around everything electric in the house, ground surfaces need only ground connections, so there is NEVER a remote chance for white neutral wire returning any hot AC current to a ground somewhere much further to be connected with metal surfaces of devices because they are/were not separated like they should be at 1st point of disconnect in the local house circuit ...
only like to say I wish I knew ... this as teenager hooking up stuff for self and other people free but no reports of injury thus far ... but perfection is everything ... so with new information in mind everything will be checked, corrected and perfected when building NEW ...
Lets Go! Thank you for your comment, safety is always number one.
My problem with this is that I installed a 30 amp sub-panel for my RV and there was only one bar in the panel for attaching ground wires and neutral wires. That 's way the panel was manufactured. By what you're saying here I assume the neutral bar should be insulated from the panel body?
No, there are many panels where they are all bonded together, definitely work with a qualified license electrician in your local electrical inspector on this one
As a EE from long ago, I loved this explanation. I'm not a full-time sparky, but do a fair amount of work on 100+ year old homes and buildings and the amount of knowledge that I've forgotten is high. Never too proud to got back and review the basics. Also, have to check out the NEC and updates even though so much existing stuff is sooooo old. Where I live, NM is verboten so gnd wires don't exist as in the NM world.
It's always good to keep go over stuff again to keep the old mind sharp!
Excellent job. Something to remember is that all conductors are also resistors. The human body is also a conductor/resistor and all the metal components in our electrical systems are also conductor/resistors. When you put resistors in parallel in a circuit the total resistance will be less than the lowest resistance value in the circuit.
Other than you being 100% correct, this is the best and most through explanation I have ever seen. Great job.
Don
Very enlightening, Thank you
You're very welcome
i love dogs. they are the best pets. good info. i was a maintenance electrician my entire career. its a pretty decent job for a young man
is this a correct statement? The neutral bar is connected to the metal frame? like we supposed to? 5:42
I had solar installed several years ago and shortly after I needed to replace my main panel due to main breaker buss issues and to expand the number of circuits. In the process of removing the old panel I found that the neutrals and grounds were still bonded together, which at that point the main panel would have been a sub-panel due to the solar having a main disconnect after the meter head. I was surprised to see that seeing as the solar installation had to be inspected by the NEC/Underwriters inspector before being energized. I separated the grounds and neutrals in the main panel. Thanks for the great video.
Great explanation! Subbed!
Let's go!
Already watched before signing in. Thank you so much for the information. I have wondered for years about this.
I Think you are intelligent and making good fruits with this channel .
What if you only have 3 wires, (2 hots, 1 neutral) coming from the Meter to the house which is about 85 feet apart. my question is do we still bond the ground and neutral at the house service panel? And does there need to be a ground rod at the house? Thanks
Cudos to the creator of this video for a job well done from a seasoned electrician and code inspector. Mike Holt would be proud of you.
Let's go!!
This is so much clearer than Mike Holt tho
I cant find answer to my question. I have a 4 pole breaker as my first disconnect, which obviously disconnects the neutral. So should i bond Earth Neutral before or after the 4 Pole breaker?
If I could Give more than one thumbs up you would get a crap load from me. Best explanation I have ever seen by far. Almost 40 years in the trades. You nailed it.
Thanks for the thumbs up it means a lot! Let's get to it!
Passed my JW test last Friday! 1st attempt
Congratulations!!!!!
That's great bud... im hoping to take my nccer for electrical soon, Hopefully God willing pass it the first time.
I’ve watched 10 videos and you explained this perfectly.
Thank you! I am so glad I could help!
Thank you
Welcome!
This is a wonderful video that will save someone’s life probably
Thank you 🙏
Wow. This explanation is the best I’ve seen.
Thank you, brother!
@7:00 side note, the panel and rigid will only be energized if you bonded the neutral bar to the panel which like youve been saying they should be seperated at every other means of discconect but also unbonded.
Excellent explanations, thank you for making this so clear! I just learned some very important information, nice job, subscribing.
I'm glad this helps. Thank you for the feed back and the sub.
In workers camp.....a hot/cold shower mixer has a 10 volts AC from those copper plumbings with the concrete in the bathroom. When the earth cable in the water heater was disconnected. Now it's fine. Didn't bother to troubleshoot specially those were old facility.
At 9:04 why wouldn't the meter box/ first point of disconnect be live as well. Is the metal box not earthed??
very clear explanation !!!!
Thanks. Learned important grounding rules.
Agree with the others. Best explanation I’ve seen. Now I fully understand the why. Thank you.
Thank you!
This is exactly what I need to talk about: If I have a 120v furnace and its "connected to a generator only during outages" generator manual says its bonded that should work and be fine....but if the furnace is still grounded to the house via the casing so that in a sense is connected to the house ground and neutral what happens when power is restored ? any help is much appreciated.
Been jake leg wiring my whole life....thank you and new sub.
Let's go! Awesome to have you!
Hi. Thanks for the video; I'm leaning, been doing, etc. Question: in your perfect scenario where the light bulb is lit with the current and the current passing through back to meter/shutoff where the neutral is bonded ground. Wouldn't current go to ground and neutral back to the source? If that was the case if it went to ground there, then the panel would hot also? I'm trying to clear in my head what happens at he first disconnect.... Thank you again for your video.
Great explination great info
Thanks!
This video really helped to clear out the confusion in my head on this subject.
Awesome explanation. Reminds me of some electrical faults I saw on boats, where the (12v, thank goodness) current was getting drawn the wrong way through the circuit because there was a better ground in an unanticipated place. The ground from one circuit was functioning as the hot for a second circuit. Hard for an amateur like me to wrap my head around sometimes.
Heck, I'm a "pro" and it's hard for me sometimes!
Thanks Coach.
AWESOME video! Quick question. I'm looking to do two subpanels in series (garage subpanel connects to shed subpanel for multiple local branch circuits for shed lighting, 240v air compressor circuit, and outlets). Given what you've stated in this video and your out building series, I'm guessing BOTH subpanels need their own ground circuits (separate grounding rods and equipment ground in series from the originating structure) and BOTH subpanels need to have their bonding screws removed?
So my 200 amp panel, only point of disconnect, only has about 14 neutral screws left but 20 spaces left for breakers. Obviously I am going to run out of neutral screws and I know you cannot double them up. What is the best way and most professional looking way to rectify that? Am I to assume I can just add another bus bar to panel and use for neutrals?
Is it a newer panel?
@@ElectricalCodeCoach Yes, the Square D QO142M200PCVP.
excellent explanation. under normal operating conditions, neutral may have current flowing through it (when unbalanced load), while ground wire will never have current under normal conditions.
Clear concise information. Scary.
How does the ground system work if the main panel did not have metallic conduit attached to a downstream sub panel? As in running power to a sub panel in a detached garage using uf direct burial wire.
Best explanation on RUclips.
I Get it!!!! This makes me wonder about my Old welding connector. off panel 2 in the garage. (no neutral) Off my sub panel. 2 BTW my panel 2 has the neutral; disconnected from the case. I worked on 5000 amp DC plants in a Telephone exchange building. We had a PHG (Personal Hazard Ground) and would measure to make sure this PHG had no current on it. Thanks. I had AC electricians tell me "Oh it is just DC" LOL Just subbed.
Hello Maestro, thank you for educating us, I have a question, my house was built in 1936 before you even born, the electrical installation is not grounded at all, all my electrical out lets only have the hot and the neutral, the main ( first point of disconnect ) box includes the meter, the neutral from the main entrance box ( first point of disconnect ) feeds the neutrals and also goes to ground thru a solid copper wire connected to the under ground water pipes in the property, I would like to ground what I can inside the house with new out lets installs, and ground those out lets with a 7 ft bar into the ground if that's the right way to do it, my question is, can I get away with just one bar in to the ground?? I see other videos using two bars in to the ground, 10 ft apart, connected together thru a wire, and also I would like to install the grounds bus strip in the same main box ( first point of disconnect ) now would I tap my new grounds bus strip in to the neutral strip in the main box ( first point of disconnect ) Appreciate your help, thanks in advance!!
Good stuff .very good info
This is soo true. I came off of a outside panel bow to hook up my camper and i would get a light shock, almost like a 12vlt shock and couldnt figure it out. I called in an electrician and it was this very thing.
Thank ypu for explaining the reasoning behind this. It was always a bit of a mystery to me.
Glad it was helpful!
in a proper system. at the first point of disconnect in the main panel. We are to bound ground to neutral. However, i would like to know if the metal case of the main panel will pose an electrical shock, since current will be flowing from the neutral to the ground on the main panel?
How about off grid inverter. It have ground on metal case/, i connect the case to ground the first panel also connect to ground. I do not connect my first breaker box to neutral, if i do connect neutral to ground of first panel it created spark short. The off grid eg4-6500 Ex sold by signature solar. The inverter to first 16 breaker box is 5-6 feet... thanks for your answer.
How do you test to verify grounds and neutrals are separate? I live in an old rent house, and while removing an old ceiling fan, was dismayed to discover 4 wires bound together in the box with an old connector type I do not recognize, but a combination of bare wires and insulated wires.
Great info. Do have a video explaining the connection to ground rods and grounding to gas and hot/cold water pipes? As I understand, I'm suppose to connect my first point of disconnect (meter base) to the rod rods. Do I connect the gas and hot/cold water pipes to the first point of disconnect, the load center, or either? Also, can you explain bonding between meter base to load center when using PVC vs EMT? Thanks.
I need to bury my service. It will come up to the structure on the east side instead of the west. The existing main panel is inside on the west. If I use a combo, meter socket/ emergency disconnect will I need to change the existing panel in order to separate my ground and neutral, or if needed, and as long as the neutral bar is not attached directly to the "can", can I add a ground bar to accommodate moving the grounds in that existing panel? Thanks and your videos are solid and much appreciated.
Great question, definitely work with a qualified electrician and your electrical inspector. If someone changes the scenario they're going to need to end up 4 feeder wirea if it is not already present and separate the grounds of neutrals while still maintaining bonding the can to the grounds
Please go over necessary grounding requirements. Code numbers on grounding.
Making a super clear case for why we need to separate at any point after the first disconnect. Why do we need to connect ground and neutral at first disconnect?
This was fantastic!
Right on bro
Fine for romex but what about pipe? I have no ground wires in the entire house. All emt where the conduit is the ground and is attached to all the boxes, subpanels and refrigerator shells.
In your last picture (with bonded ground/neutral at both sub panels), would a non-contact voltage tester detect voltage on everything red (chandelier, fridge, conduit, etc.)
Great question, no you would not detect voltage most likely, but in these situations you can take an amp probe and read the amperage. Keep in mind that it's all flowing towards the source so you are only going to be reading objectional current that is in front of it heading back to the source.
So what happens if we don't have the disconnect at the meter and our first point is the breaker box? Now the neutrals and grounds are all connected and the chandelier and refrigerator are both part of the path. Why is that different?
It's possible to have objectional current anywhere they are bonded but we have to keep in mind that the current only flows toward the source it does not flow upstream.
I've always separated the ground from neutral at the breaker panel. The ground goes to the grounding rod, the neutral goes to the neutral side of the breaker panel and then the return side of the powerline. Anything else courts disaster.
Great explanation, thanks!
Thank you, that was well said.
I personally think NEC should mandate separate ground bus bars for all installations. Neutral bud bar and ground bud bar, then bond them together in main panel only. This makes moving to solar or Generator easier and safer when it isn’t done unknowingly to home owner
fantastic description, THANK YOU!
You're very welcome!
Does 230.91 require the service disconnect to be a ocpd/fuse? Or.. what if for example somebody decided to install first a non-fusible switch disconnect after the meter can? Would it be then legal to have your bond in this unprotected non-fusible disconnect and separate the ground and neutral in the first panel with OCPDs? Because we're not specifying what kind of disconnect it is. Just first means of disconnect. Once I had to argue that the meter is not the first means of disconnect because they confused the bypass lever for a disconnecting means.
Good job 👍
Thank you! Cheers!
Thank you! This is an excellent explanation.
Excellent explanation. I've been an electrician for 37 years. What surprises me is when I see a sub panel fed with 4 wires and they still didn't separate the grounds and neutrals. What did they think the purpose of the separate ground and neutral was?
Thank you!
Not sure about the NEC, but in the CEC(Canadian) the white wire in a 2 wire system is the ‘identified’ conductor. The green is the bonding conductor, not ground wire. The neutral by definition is the white wire of a 3 wire system. Neutral and identified are not interchangeable nor is ground and bonding interchangeable. Terminology is important when teaching. So if you are in Canada, the terminology used in this video is incorrect but the theory seems accurate.
Apparently, I'm grandfathered in with my older sub panel in the garage. The ground for it is separate, and I have no choice but to connect the neutrals and grounds in it anyhow. It's an older fused based panel with room for only one bank of neutrals and grounds.
How does this apply to solar or generators…do the neutrals need to be grounded at the disconnects and inverters (since there is power source on both ends)?
That is a great question check your manufacturer specifications
@@ElectricalCodeCoach Sometimes you can't get good information from the manufacturer. I feel that the whole subject of generators and or solar generators needs to be explained. In a scenario where a generator is connected to the house wiring through a transfer switch, would the transfer switch be the first disconnect? What if you can't easily separate the ground and neutral at the external power source, is there a safe way to connect the external power source to your service panel. Do both the neutral and hot leads need to be switched to the external power source? What if the transfer switch only switches the hot leads but passes the neutral and ground? I have tried to find these answers. From what I read, I think that the both the neutral and hot leads need to be switched on each individual circuit. I would love some clarification on this subject.
What if you have a disconnect box outside the house that is connected directly to the meter base that is feeding a breaker panel in a de-attached shop, No ground attached to the disconnect box but a separate ground rod connected to the shop breaker panel Should the ground and neutral be bonded in the shop panel?
Our first point of disconnect is equipped with ground fault sensor.
Should we connect the ground and neutral is this situation?
I became doubtful as one electrician told me not to connect ground and neutral if the 1st. point of disconnect has ground fault sensor.
So if there isn't a ground from the meter box, just the two hots and neutral, to a load center 75 feet away with a main breaker and two grounding rods are supplying the ground connection for it, are the neutral and grounds still separated?
i wish someone would cover rural underground triplex install where there is no 4th wire and many outbuildings in series. not every body lives in a modern subdivision.
Thanks for the info, cleared up some things for me.
How about an off grid all in one inverter like a growatt 3000tl lvm-es, is the inverter the first point or is the panel?
Say Coach, what do you say about XFRMs? Do we not typically bond the neutral and the ground on the same terminal bar in a transformer?
You are correct, they often Bond there as well and at many other points in their system. Typically the general public is never going to be in contact with it.
@@ElectricalCodeCoach Ha, I see your logic behind your statement. Thanks again!