Is This The End For Surly?
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- I only listen to a couple of podcasts, and the Tim Ferriss show is one. He talked with Peter Attia last week, and it reinforced much of what I've talked about over the last few weeks. Highly recommend.
Oh, and someone at Surly has lost their ever lovin' mind. It's madness, and I can't quite figure it out. Unless it's just all about money. And it's usually all about money.
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Hey Chris,
Keep prodding Surly for the faithful. Today is the two-year anniversary of getting your call telling me my Bridge Club had arrived in Indy. I brought a pocket full of extra spacers with me because I had no idea what my best fit was going to be at that point. You assembled the bike uncut and sent me on my way with a smile. I still have not cut a mm off of the steerer tube. Maybe my flexibility is poor, maybe I like seeing where I am going - regardless, I have come to love the old girl because of the happy miles we have done together.
Thank you for introducing us,
Andrew
It will be interesting to see how this plays out for Surly. I'm building up a Krampus this year and have quickly found out that components are 20-50% more expensive since I built my Wednesday up in 2019. Also $1k for a Surly frame was hard to swallow, but different times we're in.
Just wait for a sale , I'm waiting for the Karate Monkeys to go on sale . At this very moment Surly is having an excellent fat bike sale.
Just bought an Ogre. Fork came pre-cut. I was really pissed off. Put in a warranty claim and they sent a new, un-cut fork. They need to put this info on the website if they are going to pull this shit. Probably won’t buy another Surly.
I bought a complete Surly Wednesday about 2 months ago with an uncut stem. I experimented with different bars and stem positions, and I currently have 50mm of spacers under the stem. I really liked having that freedom to experiment.
This is terrible for older cyclists. Virtually every one of my friends who has bought a new bike has added a delta stem extension, whether drop or flat bars. Older riders love Surly because it's the only reasonably priced bike that you can custom fit. Thi🎉is a seriously bad idea.
Ugh as a guy with long legs for my height this is not welcome news. I just finished building a bike and btw your 40% premium over a complete was my experience almost to the penny. This madness over short steerer tube height in the bike business is silly. I will be avoiding any brand where I can’t properly adjust my handlebar height for my specific comfort. But look on the bright side - maybe quill stems will come back into fashion and I will be cool again on my Riv! Right?
Take one of the most custom-ready features Surly is known for and delete it from the menu... Not a great move.
Chris, you’re correct. I listened to that podcast when it was released a couple of weeks ago and as you stated it’s excellent.
I listen to each of Tim’s podcasts as soon as they’re released.
I hadn’t carried any heavy weight in a pack since my backpacking days and only carried the bare minimum when day hiking.
I bought a new pack, a 20 and a 30 pound plate immediately after the podcast and have been rucking since.
Not only do I feel I’m getting a good workout but it also brings back many wonderful memories from my backpacking days.
Thanks as always for your excellent and insightful commentary.
I hope something good happens to you as well today, Chris.
Surly's not immune to making bone-headed decisions. A year or two ago they shortened the length of the stays on the disc Trucker. Whaaaat?
Surly has way too low stack on almost all of it's frames so this makes no sense.
You'd have to buy a second fork to your complete.
It's tough to believe Surly will be shipping out forks with steer tubes only ~10cm longer than the headtube.
I've definitely found it a bit ridiculous to set up small 26" Truckers with a steer tube longer than the fork blades, compatible with their 60cm model.
Even if they want to save money on that 25cm of factory chromo tubing that gets thrown away, there's gotta be a better way.
If they specced a steer tube 20cm longer than the headtube spec, that'd probably make 98% of customers happy, while still reducing waste.
It'd be pretty silly to buy an uncut replacement fork for a complete build, before it's even been ridden, but that just might be the answer in worst case scenarios.
I ordered a Disc Trucker recently, because I was afraid they'd get rid of the model or change its customizability in the future. It's one of the few remaining bikes in the Surly lineup that still has ten sizes, rather than a standard five, and I was told it would still have an uncut steerer tube ...we'll find out soon enough.
Yes. My understanding is that they won’t start cutting on the entire line up until next year.
I will need to reconsider my anticipated Ghost Grappler purchase if the fork is precut. Not Cool Surly. I’m a loyal fan (4 Surly bikes) so please be careful.
Yes and Yes. I was going to buy a BC (make it TA already) complete ,but will now be buying a frame thanks to you 👍👍👍👍
Just found ya now subbed.
This is because they are getting ready to go straight-to-consumer
So you think they will sell frame sets off the Web site..
Great channel !
Subscribed.
Regards, Brit gen 1 2007 Surly KM owner, fiend, rider, builder, in NE Thailand, 35 miles from the Mighty Magical Mekong river and the border with Laos.
Welcome!
@@ThePsychicDerailleur dig the channel name too.
I was planning to buy the dropbar Preamble as my first real "nice" bike later on this year. As a bike commuter, I've only ridden old mountain bikes and built bikes borrowed from others so I don't know how this information affects me at the moment tbh
I will keep this in mind though when I visit my local bike shop soon to check out the sizing of the Preamble so thank you!
Did you end up getting the preamble? trying to find out info on it, see if It would be a good touring bike
I bought a used crosscheck a few years back and finally bought an uncut steerer to raise the stack height. Too bad they are doing this as their bikes tend to have low stack height in general.
They will definitely be "cutting down" packaging waste when folks stop buying their products.......
I don't know what it is nowadays but apparently these "business" geniuses didn't learn from the old saying of "if it isn't broken, then leave it the hell alone!"
But I digress........
No complete Surlys for me. I need more than 40mm. I can't believe the minimal cost savings will offset the lost sales.
Its not minimal. 5-6 inches off a box height adds up across all units. That's more units per container. At the volumes they move that's a lot of money. And most people don't need 18miles of spacers so they won't be phased by this.
Content starts around 3:30
Way to “bring the noise” on the Surly front! I hope their better a…gents will see the wisdom in your concern. Thanks for the podcast recommendation!!
The uncut steerer tube is one of the main attractions of complete Surlys. This is hugely disappointing.
I had to install a Velo Orange stem extender on my Disc Trucker to get the bars high enough. Looks okay but super annoying.
Straggler and Bridge Club owner here. I’m not planning on buying any bikes for the next couple of years. But, yeah, knowing that I’ll have the same hassle with Surly’s that I have with most other bikes in regards to bar hight means that when it’s time to get a new bike Surly won’t be my automatic first stop.
Also: if I’m going to end up spending more on a bike, that means there’s going to be less money for me to spend on other things bike related.
As a long term fan and recently while putting that shirt on, I was reflecting on changes in Surly since they abandoned the Instigator 2, so I’m not surprised 😢
I like your concern about this issue on behalf of your customers and fellow riders, tho' for me, not that I am anyone special, I still slam all my stems and even flip over the stems to get a negative rise and that's just how I like it. And thanks for your advocacy of fitness as we age and at age 63, I treat my job in a retail store like a workout all day long and I've even let management know that. They like how I work and I respectfully told them that my three daily goals are to be significant for the store, work hard so the time flies, and work hard so I get a workout. And colleagues may think I'm a kook for happily doing lots of lifting, but I'm just thinking, I'm doing the work of the store and these boxes are like weights at the gym. And I see myself earning two paychecks, one for money and one for health/fitness. And I'm thankful to roll like that in this season of my life, not that I want to do it forever but it has been a good comeback from getting erased from my real jobs in the '08/'09 economic downturn.
I was looking at the Bridge Club but with a cut steerer ..not so sure now. Long legs shorter torso here!
It's definitely a bad move on their part; got a Bridge Club this summer and I'm considering selling it simply because I can't get the handlebars at a comfortable height on a touring bike!
While I was thinking of swapping to a custom built Straggler, at that point frames from Soma (or hey, maybe even Crust!) become even more compelling
Also always remember the higher the stack the closer to god.
Are shops going to be willing to call Surly up and say, "This complete doesn't work for our customers, you need to ship us an uncut fork if you want us to sell the bike?" It shouldn't take many returns like this before it costs Surly more to cut the things than leave them uncut.
Edit to add: My Bridge Club has 30mm of spacers and a +15 stem. I'd probably have another cm of spacers and a flatter stem if I hadn't gotten it used. My Cross Check has 60mm and a -6 stem because the previous owner was smart enough not to cut it.
The shops may call, but that’s not the question. The question is will the company be willing to do anything about it?
The end of Surly may be that I don't have a stocking dealer anywhere close to me. I would like to have another steel bike, but good luck finding any in my area that I can test ride.
Thanks for the podcast recommendation, Chris.I will check it out. I have one for you (though, you likely know about it already): The Bike Karma Podcast. Tom Brown shares stories that have one common thread and that is, bikes. Anyway, I hope something great happens to you today.
Great point, I am a custom bike builder and Soma , Surly were 2 out of brands that I use to build. Surly by cutting corners will for sure lose more customers.
I found Preamble to be a tad underwhelming too, tbh. It is a very "regular" bike, a bit too simple a bike.
60mm of spacers on my Jones LWB, 100mm of spacers on my Hardtack (with Jones bars), but only 30mm on my Krampus with a suspension fork (due to liability/ warranty limit w/weak aluminum steerer). I compensated on the Krampus by using Jones riser bars (net rise gain of 50mm over original Jones bars), but still not high enough.
As a side note, I have decided not to purchase new standalone Surly forks on several occasions due to the steerer being too short. Why not just sell them all with a 400mm steerer and let the customer decide?
Some lessons are learnt the hard way like cutting a steerer too short using a timber mitre box as a guide (not that I’ve ever done that!)😮
You’ll almost NEVER get the ideal bike fit - unless you buy a frame set, select parts and built it yourself.
Before this nonsense, I would have been in disagreement. Now, you may be right.
@@ThePsychicDerailleur I did say “almost” lol…
Surly must have hired Fred from Trek to be the new product mangler.
Better than hiring a Cannondale industrial sabbatoge product mangler!
Yup. They will sell you a new fork for 150ish. For me Jones 2.5 bars were needed for the right fit. Probably would go build next time
Mi bike came with two stems, the one on the bike was to short so they install the spare one for me.
I was about to call my shop to buy a Surly Bridge Club *today*. But seeing the reviews on the recent builds is giving me pause. Might keep looking 😞
I’m not sure what the latest complaints are about build spec, but they’ve been going on for as long as I can remember. The frame will last your lifetime. Components are temporary (for the most part). If the handlebars are high enough for you on the complete, go for it. If not you’re going to have to spend more money on a frame up build. Have your LBS do that with a BC, or call James at Analog and get yourself a Hardtack.
Na, that’s definitely not the end of Surly. Not sure if the even cut the steerer tube on the other Models. My guess, 90% of the Preamble and Bridge Club customers won’t recognise the change. For me it wouldn’t stop my from buying a Surly complete. Here in Germany we don’t have many good Surly bike shops. So ordering Surly bikes online is pretty common and I think it’s a benefit of some when the steerer is already cut so that they don’t have to.
This change by Surly is not inclusive of not-young riders like me who prefer a somewhat upright riding position. Needlessly eliminating a large segment of existing customers you worked hard to skillfully attract, is not a good business move. Hopefully they will realize the unforced error and reverse the decision.
The Bridge Club “I made my own” is largest frame that would still allow me to stand over. Nevertheless, I have a whole bunch of spacers, a VeloOrange “Happy Stem” with about 100mm of rise and VeloOrange “Crazy Bars” that have 40mm of rise.
So, if their decision is not reversed I guess Surly would be off the table as my next bike. What do? Well off the top of my head I could go with a Rivendell from you Chris, or perhaps a Jones. I’ll have to start scouting out their offerings and the alternatives from other brands.
Guys, please educate me on Surly parts. I've purchased New Ultra hubs as I liked integral washers are stainless and serrated to bite fork ends (unlike some other hex bold hubs) so price might seem to be justifiable by me. I also learned axles are steel not alu and rear one is 12mm diameter inside hub and 10mm protruding ends for obvious reasons. Inner cone spacer also has serrated surface and even has rubber seal inside. Everything looks thought through. Yes, price isn't as low as for most track hubs but I can talk myself for seeing reason even if threads at edge of hub aren't flawless. I'm sure Novatec track hubs work same way for less just aren't available (anymore) with hex bolt/skewer fastening. I'm thinking of selling Surly hubs and buying decent cheaper hubs with track nut fastening proven to not slip in fork ends.
On other hand, cog looks just a cog - steel cog, just more expensive as other machined steels cogs. Very special steel? CNC machining costs about same everywhere and Surly still has manufacturing in Taiwan just like Halo, All City, etc. Tuggnut while it is a useful bit costs like bike jewelry. Isn't Surly enjoying a hype of being niche producer of sought after parts? They definitely aren't bad but I wonder if I get value proportional to price asked? Well, I already dropped idea of buying into Steamroller frame for 600 as my quite similar steel frame does everything Steamroller can except taking wide tires and I'm riding mostly paved surfaces.
No, I'm not whining - just asking if USA cyclists feel price of Surly products corresponds to value they provide? Probably this are just import taxes which make Surly parts to be expensive outside USA?
I am so glad I know this. I would not buy a complete Surly because of the rims, but I would buy a frame.
..reason I didn't buy the Disc Trucker was frame 54 only came with 650s.
Interesting. I was looking at the Surly Krampus, but there isn't a nearby dealer so it has not moved forward. I just ordered a new fork for my 20 year old Trek mountain bike. Besides the suspension improvement, having the full length steering tube to work with was the deciding factor. If I can't get the rise I want on the Surly, the deal is a no go. Too bad!
Well this didn't age well!
Honestly it’s like Surly is afraid to say the “F Word” anymore. What the Surly brand was…and what it is today is different. I love the brand - but you can tell they have taken the personality away from the brand.
My guess is the forks are cut in Tawain - and they save money on the Gross tube spend.
It’s a bad move for the consumer point of view, and a good move for bottom line profit.
IMO, Surlys are best bought as framesets anyway. That's the best way to enjoy a Surly and truly "make it your own".
Patiently waiting for a Karate Monkey sale , at the moment Surly is offering a good discount on Fat Bikes.
I bought a 2020 Ogre complete and that only has 30mm of spacers under the stem. Was pretty annoyed when I saw that. Ended up running Ritchie Coyote bars and luckily the fit is good now.
My Salsa Marrakesh flatbar complete came cut too short as well.
That sounds like it was due to the shop. They used whatever number of provided spacers and that was it. I’m pretty sure I was one of only a few that left the tube uncut until the bike was purchased.
@@ThePsychicDerailleur yeah that sounds about right. Good thing I bought my Bridge Club as a frame and fork.
Omg! I am in this puzzle rn I bought a BC IN 2020 and I cannot raise my bars to a comfortable height... I got the shortest stem ever and it's just too far away
Not sure if I "need" to buy another bike this year, but if I was, it would have likely been the Ogre. I'd much prefer to have me be the one deciding on steerer tube length and handle bar position if I'm spending $1500 to $2000 on a bike. Any word if they are going to continue to offer full length/uncut forks for separate purchases? Wanting one for my black bridge club...
Frames will continue to come with uncut steerers, so I’m sure the aftermarket forks will also be uncut
@@ThePsychicDerailleur Thank you.
The seating posion on the Surleys is why i like em.
Yes, this new information changes my interest in buying a new Surly. I wouldn't buy a new one now knowing this.
I won't buy another Surly just because they have stopped making the bikes I like. The LHT, Cross Check and Big Dummy are all discontinued and I don't have any interest in their other models. The cut steerer issue doesn't help their cause either.
I am never going to buy a surly complete. I don't like shit components and I am very specific what I want on my bike. So this does not effect me in any way.
I just bough a Surly Bridge Club based on the fact the sales rep said they come with uncut tubes. When I went to pick it up, I was frustrated to see it was already cut. They said it came like that. I called Surly and they said the same as you did in the video.
Not sure what to do now. I wanted a nice bike ~$1,500-$1,850 that I could sit in a comfortable upright position. Are there any options our there? Debating whether to return it.
I have been researching new stems and and handlebars, which is how I can across you (the Discord Pepper stem video to be exact), but I then take all the risk on in case it doesn't work. Very frustrating.
Returning it would be a pain, but it would certainly send a message.
I'm considering Surly, but I'm going frameset only and putting on the components I want and having a long steerer tube is important to me as I'm getting older and want to sit up more - I hate ugly steerer tube extensions.
I'm new to bikes and don't know much about what exactly the issue is. Say I really wanted a preamble and I pick the bigger of the two sizes for my height. What would I need to do to get my bars higher in the future?
Different bars (w/ more rise) or steer tube extender.
If it wasn't for the upload date i would have thought it was an april fools day thing ... If this is true it's quite stupid from Surly indeed. Glad i built my Ghost Grappler from the frame up and i did left my fork uncut 👍
I would always buy the frameset instead of the complete bike. Especially Surly, because I think their complete builds have mediocre components. (that is why a Surly Preamble is cheap). Also, if you are going to need that many spacers to fit on a bike, you probably bought the wrong bike. I think there is a big market for not-young cyclist, who want an upright position, and that offer frames that have a really extra long head tube. I don't know of any brand that does this, but it looks like there is a market for it.
Old people shouldn't ride Surlys then?
I will be buying a new bike this season. Not sure which Surly model, but Surly is on my list along with a few others. Also, I will be buying a complete bike. One last thought, I typically set my bike up once and don't mess with it beyond that unless the setup wasn't exactly correct. If I get a good fit with the pre-cut steerer, I guess I'm OK with it. I mean, to really dial in the perfect fit is a nice option, but if it fits, it fits. If it doesn't fit, well that's another story. I don't believe the other bikes on my list will give me the option to size the steerer tube. So, in the long run, it is a nice option for Surly to offer the custom size. And its one less nice thing in their brand. I'm actually kinda surprised that Surly (in the midst of many, many brands) would do this.
ps What truck do you drive? Must have missed it.🚛
What truck? I don’t remember ever mentioning a truck but I’ve had a Honda Element since 2003.
@@ThePsychicDerailleur just the story you told about telling a guy you have a long haul trucker and he asked what kinda truck do you have….hey Chris, have a great day.
@@Nickescaped Ahhhhh. Yes. 😆 You too!
When does the topic finally Start?
Gabe your info is interesting.
Just to add Surly have joined the B. corporation certification. This means they are looking to many ways of reducing ecological impact more aggressively. Shipping is not just packaging mass, but volume the boxes take. This change the shipping container volume.
That itself is a good thing, but the certification also looks for customer satisfaction.
Pretty sure they don’t want to irritate folks.
I bought an ogre in 2020 best thing i ever did. There was no pre-cut.
Peter Attia- One of my favorite podcasts (Even though I don't know what the hell he's talking about 80% of the time).... Peter certainly put out the best Lance Armstrong interviews in existence. Anyway, I was so excited to order my bridgeclub with a massive number of spacers due to my neck tightness when riding my drop bar gravel bike. Combined with a short stem and Jones Bar, I'm loving my BC. Poor choice to precut.... Surly lost my interest when they discontinued the Troll- The one that got away....
I wouldn’t feel too bad. I’ve owned a Troll. Not the best riding bike IMO. Not terrible. There are just waaay better ones.
Why not just put on a stem that angles up? It accomplishes the same thing.
Money in hand, this new information changes nothing. That could be my lack of knowledge of bicycles. This could be Surly finally selling a "complete bicycle" that's actually complete, minus the foot pedals. Makes no difference to me. I'm just glad it's 20% off.
Have you spoken with Surly lately and have they confirmed or denied the issue?
QBP and Surly can spin this change any way they want, whether it's an attempt to comply with their recently adopted B-corp status or some other notion. Frankly, I expect the QBP overlords will shift to a consumer direct model in the near future to maximize margins. In fact, expect to see a "product dump" in the near future that will bypass the IBD and go directly to the consumer to reduce inventory. Consider this a beta test for the upcoming shift in there business model.
The dump has already begun. Discounts at the dealer level are rampant. I think many suppliers are desperate to get product out of their warehouses. I’d have to go back and see what my prediction was for the end of bike shops. Sadly I don’t think I was pessimistic enough.
@@ThePsychicDerailleur Absolutely! Whether the supplier is large or small, the dump is happening in a big way. Trek continues to extend their "Trek Fest" into June (normally an April only thing) to Merry Sales and Velo Orange offering major discounts. The IBD should be placed on the critically endangered list.
I just stumbled upon your channel and yes I was considering a Preamble. I always liked the Surly ethos and that's why I own a Steamroller. This is pretty concerning for me because I was gonna buy a complete bike, I didn't want go through the hassle of a complete build up again.
Just discovered your channel, liked what I saw and head and subscribed.
Your comments about Surly and pre-cutting their steering tube is VERY disturbing to me and I have been looking at the Midnight Special for my first foray into 650B. I know this is five-month old video and hoping this issue has been corrected. I'll have to look into it. If they are actually doing this, I'll be looking more at the SOMA Grand Randonneur or Velo Orange polyvalent, or even the MASI Randonneur. Thanks for the warning.
Thanks for watching, and the sub. Understand that this only applies to complete bikes. Also the full line doesn’t get this treatment until the ‘24 model year. You may be able to find a ‘23 that hasn’t been tampered with yet.
Makes a 1” threaded stem seem really keen!
Peter Attia's functional medicine approach to health care and extending quality of life is pretty compelling.
Yes it is
His podcast interviews are really good
My son wants a bike and Surly was high on the list, but not now…
Wow, is this vid dull.
Not as dull as this comment
Guys guys .. both were equally Dull. And what that means to me is pure entertainment, so neither is really that dull
They think they are going to save money on packaging, but they're going to spend money cutting steerers. Rethink time.
Bud you need to pick up the pace. Aint nobody got time for a long winded attitude fueled monologue better suited to ancient interweb forums
What a well thought out comment. Thanks for adding to the discussion. There’s plenty of other channels out there. Move along.
Are they really going to stop producing the Steamroller?
That I’m not sure about.
i considered that a "premium" brand. Customers liked them. Maybe customers won't like them as much now. Further proof that the devil is in the details.
I can't picture buying a complete Surly. I wanted to plan my first full build from one of their frames.
But yo your point, the cost to build isn't very appealing.... BUT on the other hand: is it cheaper to build from scratch, or buy the complete just to spend money on upgraded parts later? 🤔
The latter
@@ThePsychicDerailleur fair haha which then will lead to leftover parts to be used later.... So this is just a vicious cycle isn't it? 😂
@@marcguerino5645 As it has been, and likely always will be.
Was this Surly's idea, or was it their corporate overlord's? #QuillStems4ever!
Hey @Surlybikes please UNDO this silliness!
Bought a Preamble at an LBS in Toronto, this is my first Surly. Just wanted something simple but I've wanted Surly all my life and I thought why not start with the entry-level. I have many bikes in the stable and I bike to work a lot, so I wanted a dedicated cro-mo bike for all-season riding. First thing I asked was whether the steerer tube was uncut but they said it came from the factory precut. To make it my own, I swapped the bars to the Moloko and used a Salsa Guide 110mm stem with 15° rise, perfect for commuting duties. Not too disappointed at it, but it seems like entry-level built bikes even before the pandemic had precut steerers (like the DeVinci Cartier hybrid I bought in 2019, another LBS didn't bother to tell me to pre-measure the bike before taking ownership).
Thanks for the comment, and I’m glad you like your new bike. MOST complete bikes came with pre cut steer tubes. Surly (and a few Salsa and All City) had uncut tubes. They were the outliers. Which makes this change sting all the more.
Blah. What a bummer. I’m happy I am not in the market for a surly complete. Def not enough spacers for my scoliosis riddled back. 😢
Tested surly chromoly steel..came back as ordinary steel...will never buy a surly
Quill stem?Quill stem? Why a quill stem?
Surly is becoming a boring post in a box gravel bike brand like everyone else, why bother buy a surly now? 🤔😒
I personaly don"t think it's a big deal to have precut steartubes as the other brands are doing this anyway. It would be interesting to know the percentage of people buying complete Surlys or framesets though. I just purchased a Disc Trcuker frameset for a Flatbar Gravel, because the complete one is kinda ugly and has downgraded components compared to what I purchased and I basically reached the same pricetag which is 2000€ (Shimano SLX group, DT Swiss wheels, Panaracer tires and stuffs). Yes you have to gather the tools for a buildup frameset compared to a complete one, but it's way better and I think most people are buying Framesets.
A longer steer tube looks better than a Cinelli track stem turned upside down! I never owned a Surly, but always appreciated the adjustability and different build opportunities possible with that brand. This is the brand me too, latest fad buyers always avoid! I usually wind up fighting the tide and adapting newer, but proven advances, sometimes by modifying components. 9 speed in 126mm dropouts without cold setting the frame. Yes, it can be done!
#cookiecutterstacknumbers
Super wack @Surly