Okay, first of all thank you for all your videos, I find them really helpful! Secondly, I have a couple questions coming from a person who hates doing math. How much haste do I need, before Borrowed Time, to get 6 renew ticks? (I am asking because I don't know how to figure that out). And what glyph would you drop for Glyph of Renew, considering that it is a prime glyph? My raid team has a bit of an unusual comp, and I end up doing a lot of direct tank healing (we don't have an hpal or a dk tank), do you have any advice for disc healing in that sort of scenario?
@@AmyEarls7683 if you're doing a lot of direct tank healing I'd take a build with strength of soul and inspiration. Something like what I run for baleroc (spec is in the baleroc video description, also in my five specs for firelands video there's a more tank healing spec.) Try to holy fire on CD, keep grace up on the tank with penance before you cast smite/flash heal/GH. Pom into the tank when it'll bounce 2-3 times. You can also cast renew on the tank especially if you're moving and the tank already has weak soul like when you're running from seeds on rag. For glyph of renew you'd drop either penance or poh depending on the fight. If there are sections where you'll get value out of poh then take that otherwise If the fight is more tank damage take penance. I wouldn't drop pws glyph ever. Penance CD isn't that strong because it's CD is still lower than graces duration unglyphed. Default to dropping penance glyph most of the time. For six renew ticks WITHOUT borrowed time you need 3478 haste rating with 3/3 darkness with the 5% raid buff. If you're goblin it's 3317. This spreadsheet has all the haste breakpoints for every with/without raid buff, goblin, in just, etc. docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WLOZ1YevGPw_WZs0JhGzVVy906W5y0i9UqHa3ejyBkE/htmlview
@@AmyEarls7683 np if you have any more questions you can always send them on the discord, if im not around theres other gamers in there who are helpful.
For 10 mans at least I think disc dps is very useful. I believe there are several fights that don't need a full 2 healers, or only need them in some moments of the fight. If you only want to maximize personal HPS, than disc smiting is bad, but if you want to support and trust the other healer, there are several times in fights where the smart heal of smiting is very good. You don't need to do max heals, you smite and trust the other healer, or depending on the moment you use CDs, prayer of healing, etc. And the dps also helps, like on heroic rag, passing with one meteor and other dps checks.
Most of the time in 10m you can just drop a healer and use hybrid healing cds to bridge the gaps on fights where you only need 1.5 healers worth of hps. In the circumstances where you both only need 1.5 healers worth of hps and the damage matters (very rare in classic) youre correct. That said so long as the damage check isnt tight youre better off, especially as disc given how absorbs work, either solo healing or just doing higher hps instead of damage and making your raid totally unkillable and super resilient to mistakes/avoidable damage.
Any thoughts on Hpal gearing? The 4 set is garbage compared the the priest one. Maybe 1.5-2% on average for me. I’m also wondering if crit or mastery can beat haste?
Im working on a similar project for hpal which ill be releasing sometime soon. I think the 4 set is ok on the tank healing focused fights. Any time youre not consistently hitting targets with radiance and LOD the 4 set will pbly be worth it but in normal fights where those two spells are most of your healing its terrible.
The 2 set and 4 set are definitely both worth grabbing. 4 set is about 5% throughput increase and 2 set is ~400 mp5. Pretty much impossible to beat with the offpieces we have from FL imo.
@@kuza9874 Thats a very interesting question, Ill have to look into it and do some math. It would have to beat ~5% hps from the 4 set which is pretty high but its potentially good paired with like short fiend for certain fight lengths. Also depends how well the shadow tier is itemized.
i find it weird that much of classic tc overly inflates the value of haste. You have specs like holy paladin which infinite stack haste despite not even hitting relevant holy radiance breakpoints, forgetting that stats like crit/mastery literally increase your hps. subjectively i don't see that much point in gearing spirit in firelands, especially when you can walk into phases like p2 beth at 100% mana with a sf, even spamming poh upstairs fairly liberally. i can see spirit being much better in dragon soul because bosses deal raid damage for 6+ minutes.
yo are you sups on WCL? i feel like i recognize the name from logs Yeah everyone just stacks haste blindly on every healer. FL is such a weird tier. The only boss with high hps requirement is like beth. Every other boss has a super weird damage profile or is just pure tank damage. If you start dropping healers spirit is still great for fights like rag/beth imo. I solo heal top side on beth and its decently mana intensive and if youre like 2-3 healing the bottom side thats also decently mana intensive.
@@doublezug7193 Thats definitely true and my experience is fairly limited to GDKPS unfortunately. i think doing a similar video on hpal would show the pointlessness of stacking haste (especially come DS)
@@MrSups1 yeah its annoying that gdkps never drop healers. After prog its way less fun to 5-6 heal everything even if it might be slightly safer. Its also a big reason healers dont usually improve as theres no incentive to if most of the time your hps doesnt matter at all because theres two more healers in the raid than there need to be.
I love how on your last bis gear video you said mp5 trinkets were gonna be bis, I tried to tell you all throughput is ALWAYS better. Raw int will always net higher than anything else. Crazy how people don't listen to players that have been playing since original cata. Not to mention top US 21 raiders in original cata
And I get the part of slightly better hps with reduced efficiency. I'm just curious if it also changes which spells are higher hps/higher heals per mana.
Until you're playing perfectly the difference between secondary stats isnt that large in classic. Focusing on basics, mana management, spell selection, uptime, etc. will give you more +hps for 99% of healers than swapping 1000 secondary stat around. Since Ilvl is so insane for disc for the vast majority of players id just recommend to take the highest ilvl piece, reforge off mastery and youll get 98% effectiveness out of your gear without having to worry about swapping or stat weights..
This is such a bad, straight up deceitful video, "dont ever press smite outside of building aa or if want to do dmg for some reason". The whole point of disc is serviceable smart heals and extra 7k-14k dps on a boss. there is literally no point in bringing a disc that only spams poh despite it being the highest HPS for disc priest. poh is horrible compared to an hpal pushing radiance and LoD. That is not your role as a healer to heal a 5 man group. Keep the tank alive, spam smite and thrive. Look at any log from an actual good guild disc priest before you take a cent of advice from this video. Especially in firelands your gonna be way better off dropping a tank and keeping a disc and an hpal than dropping a disc for a dps. Such bad takes in this video its insane.
@@Abaum201 what happens when the raid isnt pixel stacked poh is more hps and more mana efficient at 5 targets than radiance if you could heal all the damage in the expansion effectively with lod and radiance youd be right (and you'd also never bring a single other healer than hpal to any raid ever no matter how much atonement dps they did) but thats obviously not true. If you look at fl logs disc priest isnt meaningfully behind hpal overall in terms of hps.
@@Abaum201 So you're arugment is flawed. You can not do 14k dps as a disc while using all of your kit. If you prestack shields even a bit on any fight in cata your dps is going to tank. Looking at the best disc priest in cata atm, none of them are the best dps priests. Foji who plays dps disc - take Shannox for ref, he did like 16k, but parsed a 38 as a healer. This is double bad becuase they should and could 3 heal the damn fight. He isn't needed nor useful. If you're going to bring a disc, bring them to heal and use the entire kit and as a healer. They can maximze healing and still do a snip of dps. While still not having to have an entire healer do what they are brought to the raid to do A disc can full well heal for as much as a pally. They are right there with them on every fight.. they beat them on 33 of the 7 out right.
maximizing hps shouldn't be the role you play in a 25 man raid. pretty much ever. but if you do have to play for hps this is good info. your role as a disc priest in cata is to utilize the unique ability to do damage and heal at the same time, through atonement healing. you keep very consistent heals on the tank and spot heal anyone within 15 yards. atonement is your best spot heal by a mile, being a smart heal that is very mana efficient. Haste is by far the best secondary for smite ("10-15% better than crit). faster smites = more damage = more and faster healing. you want as much haste as your mana can handle. play to your role, you are not a raid healer, if you are being asked to raid heal you should just go holy. if you are required to be because of your raid comp doesnt have a holy paly druid or shaman to raid heal, this is useful info. hps doesnt matter at all for disc priest 90% of the time. that being said, play what you enjoy. good info for a hps focused disc priest!
If you want damage drop a healer. Smite is not a good spot heal and atonement just snipes healing that would be better and more efficiently done by poh/healing rain/radiance/etc and does low hps tank healing that is just either sniping passive tank healing from your beacon/pws/lifebloom/etc. or not enough throughput to keep the tank alive through significant damage. Pure atonement priest is the weakest healer in the game by far and should only ever be used in niche speedrunning environments by like .01% of the population of the game. For every normal player in a normal raid you should either maximize your hps or swap to shadow and actually do meaningful damage.
This playstyle is mostly for players who are “filler” healers. Its the most useless unskilled playstyle there is as a disc healer. Specially in heroic you need disc priests who actually know how to heal without ONLY spamming smite. Smite spammers get carried in raids, but i aknowledge that its still effective - it is kinda overpowered that you can do loads of healing by only spamming 2 spells.
@@WowDevilzz Tell that to Fojji, the raid leader of Numen (world first Rag). Looking at his logs, all he does on heroic ragna is spam smite, devo plague and sw:d. 10.5mil damage dealt, 12.8k hps 9.67 million healed. Sounds like a pretty fucking effective player on the hardest boss we have right now.
What's crazy is that you're both right and situationally you would use both of these play styles. On rag for example you go from p1 big atonement heals , to p2 big poh heals to p3 to big atonement heals to p4 big poh heals. Damage patterns and raid positioning is way different in firelands. Pretending that atonement isn't effective here is just limiting yourself. You want a true disc priest tip? Be adaptable. Don't get hit by shit. Ez
Okay, first of all thank you for all your videos, I find them really helpful! Secondly, I have a couple questions coming from a person who hates doing math. How much haste do I need, before Borrowed Time, to get 6 renew ticks? (I am asking because I don't know how to figure that out). And what glyph would you drop for Glyph of Renew, considering that it is a prime glyph? My raid team has a bit of an unusual comp, and I end up doing a lot of direct tank healing (we don't have an hpal or a dk tank), do you have any advice for disc healing in that sort of scenario?
@@AmyEarls7683 if you're doing a lot of direct tank healing I'd take a build with strength of soul and inspiration. Something like what I run for baleroc (spec is in the baleroc video description, also in my five specs for firelands video there's a more tank healing spec.) Try to holy fire on CD, keep grace up on the tank with penance before you cast smite/flash heal/GH. Pom into the tank when it'll bounce 2-3 times. You can also cast renew on the tank especially if you're moving and the tank already has weak soul like when you're running from seeds on rag.
For glyph of renew you'd drop either penance or poh depending on the fight. If there are sections where you'll get value out of poh then take that otherwise
If the fight is more tank damage take penance. I wouldn't drop pws glyph ever. Penance CD isn't that strong because it's CD is still lower than graces duration unglyphed. Default to dropping penance glyph most of the time.
For six renew ticks WITHOUT borrowed time you need 3478 haste rating with 3/3 darkness with the 5% raid buff. If you're goblin it's 3317.
This spreadsheet has all the haste breakpoints for every with/without raid buff, goblin, in just, etc. docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WLOZ1YevGPw_WZs0JhGzVVy906W5y0i9UqHa3ejyBkE/htmlview
@@doublezug7193 wow thank you so much!
@@AmyEarls7683 np if you have any more questions you can always send them on the discord, if im not around theres other gamers in there who are helpful.
Awesome spreadsheet, it's something I've always wanted to see =D
Awesome stuff. Thanks for puttin in the hard work to do all this.
If only we had a cheap spell... that was kinda lower HPS, but super mana efficient... that we could spam...
Absolute cinema
show me the math
Bros a legend!
For 10 mans at least I think disc dps is very useful. I believe there are several fights that don't need a full 2 healers, or only need them in some moments of the fight. If you only want to maximize personal HPS, than disc smiting is bad, but if you want to support and trust the other healer, there are several times in fights where the smart heal of smiting is very good. You don't need to do max heals, you smite and trust the other healer, or depending on the moment you use CDs, prayer of healing, etc. And the dps also helps, like on heroic rag, passing with one meteor and other dps checks.
Most of the time in 10m you can just drop a healer and use hybrid healing cds to bridge the gaps on fights where you only need 1.5 healers worth of hps. In the circumstances where you both only need 1.5 healers worth of hps and the damage matters (very rare in classic) youre correct.
That said so long as the damage check isnt tight youre better off, especially as disc given how absorbs work, either solo healing or just doing higher hps instead of damage and making your raid totally unkillable and super resilient to mistakes/avoidable damage.
I miss 25man raiding
@@FelipeVillelafdbva Yeah, its annoying how they balance 10m to often be very difficult to solo heal but trivial to two heal
oh retail
my bad
o7 retail gamers
Dope video man, any way we can get a link to the sheet? What build are you running now?
Any thoughts on Hpal gearing? The 4 set is garbage compared the the priest one. Maybe 1.5-2% on average for me. I’m also wondering if crit or mastery can beat haste?
Im working on a similar project for hpal which ill be releasing sometime soon. I think the 4 set is ok on the tank healing focused fights. Any time youre not consistently hitting targets with radiance and LOD the 4 set will pbly be worth it but in normal fights where those two spells are most of your healing its terrible.
That moment when it's so hard to hit good Prayer's on Rag that you're forced to rediscover info that's been widely available for months
Years"
Great info mate. Did you factor in the regen from the 2 set bonus?
The 2 set and 4 set are definitely both worth grabbing. 4 set is about 5% throughput increase and 2 set is ~400 mp5.
Pretty much impossible to beat with the offpieces we have from FL imo.
@@doublezug7193What do you think about going for 2 shadow pieces? -75 sec to fiend cd seems strong
@@kuza9874 Thats a very interesting question, Ill have to look into it and do some math. It would have to beat ~5% hps from the 4 set which is pretty high but its potentially good paired with like short fiend for certain fight lengths. Also depends how well the shadow tier is itemized.
@@kuza9874 It specifies that the cd is only lower in shadow form so no bueno :(
@@stromley Bruh
i find it weird that much of classic tc overly inflates the value of haste. You have specs like holy paladin which infinite stack haste despite not even hitting relevant holy radiance breakpoints, forgetting that stats like crit/mastery literally increase your hps.
subjectively i don't see that much point in gearing spirit in firelands, especially when you can walk into phases like p2 beth at 100% mana with a sf, even spamming poh upstairs fairly liberally. i can see spirit being much better in dragon soul because bosses deal raid damage for 6+ minutes.
yo are you sups on WCL?
i feel like i recognize the name from logs
Yeah everyone just stacks haste blindly on every healer. FL is such a weird tier.
The only boss with high hps requirement is like beth. Every other boss has a super weird damage profile or is just pure tank damage.
If you start dropping healers spirit is still great for fights like rag/beth imo. I solo heal top side on beth and its decently mana intensive and if youre like 2-3 healing the bottom side thats also decently mana intensive.
@@doublezug7193 Thats definitely true and my experience is fairly limited to GDKPS unfortunately.
i think doing a similar video on hpal would show the pointlessness of stacking haste (especially come DS)
@@MrSups1 yeah its annoying that gdkps never drop healers. After prog its way less fun to 5-6 heal everything even if it might be slightly safer. Its also a big reason healers dont usually improve as theres no incentive to if most of the time your hps doesnt matter at all because theres two more healers in the raid than there need to be.
I love how on your last bis gear video you said mp5 trinkets were gonna be bis, I tried to tell you all throughput is ALWAYS better. Raw int will always net higher than anything else. Crazy how people don't listen to players that have been playing since original cata. Not to mention top US 21 raiders in original cata
How similar are the results if you swap crit and haste around on base stats? Just curious as I have been running haste over crit.
And I get the part of slightly better hps with reduced efficiency. I'm just curious if it also changes which spells are higher hps/higher heals per mana.
Until you're playing perfectly the difference between secondary stats isnt that large in classic. Focusing on basics, mana management, spell selection, uptime, etc. will give you more +hps for 99% of healers than swapping 1000 secondary stat around.
Since Ilvl is so insane for disc for the vast majority of players id just recommend to take the highest ilvl piece, reforge off mastery and youll get 98% effectiveness out of your gear without having to worry about swapping or stat weights..
This is such a bad, straight up deceitful video, "dont ever press smite outside of building aa or if want to do dmg for some reason". The whole point of disc is serviceable smart heals and extra 7k-14k dps on a boss. there is literally no point in bringing a disc that only spams poh despite it being the highest HPS for disc priest. poh is horrible compared to an hpal pushing radiance and LoD. That is not your role as a healer to heal a 5 man group. Keep the tank alive, spam smite and thrive. Look at any log from an actual good guild disc priest before you take a cent of advice from this video. Especially in firelands your gonna be way better off dropping a tank and keeping a disc and an hpal than dropping a disc for a dps. Such bad takes in this video its insane.
your role as a healer is to cast healing spells. do not cope
@MrSups1 then play holy or an hpal. Youre coping trying max hps as disc lol
@@Abaum201 what happens when the raid isnt pixel stacked
poh is more hps and more mana efficient at 5 targets than radiance
if you could heal all the damage in the expansion effectively with lod and radiance youd be right (and you'd also never bring a single other healer than hpal to any raid ever no matter how much atonement dps they did) but thats obviously not true.
If you look at fl logs disc priest isnt meaningfully behind hpal overall in terms of hps.
@@Abaum201 So you're arugment is flawed. You can not do 14k dps as a disc while using all of your kit. If you prestack shields even a bit on any fight in cata your dps is going to tank. Looking at the best disc priest in cata atm, none of them are the best dps priests.
Foji who plays dps disc - take Shannox for ref, he did like 16k, but parsed a 38 as a healer. This is double bad becuase they should and could 3 heal the damn fight. He isn't needed nor useful.
If you're going to bring a disc, bring them to heal and use the entire kit and as a healer. They can maximze healing and still do a snip of dps. While still not having to have an entire healer do what they are brought to the raid to do
A disc can full well heal for as much as a pally. They are right there with them on every fight.. they beat them on 33 of the 7 out right.
maximizing hps shouldn't be the role you play in a 25 man raid. pretty much ever. but if you do have to play for hps this is good info. your role as a disc priest in cata is to utilize the unique ability to do damage and heal at the same time, through atonement healing. you keep very consistent heals on the tank and spot heal anyone within 15 yards. atonement is your best spot heal by a mile, being a smart heal that is very mana efficient. Haste is by far the best secondary for smite ("10-15% better than crit). faster smites = more damage = more and faster healing. you want as much haste as your mana can handle. play to your role, you are not a raid healer, if you are being asked to raid heal you should just go holy. if you are required to be because of your raid comp doesnt have a holy paly druid or shaman to raid heal, this is useful info. hps doesnt matter at all for disc priest 90% of the time. that being said, play what you enjoy. good info for a hps focused disc priest!
If you want damage drop a healer. Smite is not a good spot heal and atonement just snipes healing that would be better and more efficiently done by poh/healing rain/radiance/etc and does low hps tank healing that is just either sniping passive tank healing from your beacon/pws/lifebloom/etc. or not enough throughput to keep the tank alive through significant damage.
Pure atonement priest is the weakest healer in the game by far and should only ever be used in niche speedrunning environments by like .01% of the population of the game. For every normal player in a normal raid you should either maximize your hps or swap to shadow and actually do meaningful damage.
This playstyle is mostly for players who are “filler” healers. Its the most useless unskilled playstyle there is as a disc healer. Specially in heroic you need disc priests who actually know how to heal without ONLY spamming smite.
Smite spammers get carried in raids, but i aknowledge that its still effective - it is kinda overpowered that you can do loads of healing by only spamming 2 spells.
@@WowDevilzz Tell that to Fojji, the raid leader of Numen (world first Rag). Looking at his logs, all he does on heroic ragna is spam smite, devo plague and sw:d. 10.5mil damage dealt, 12.8k hps 9.67 million healed. Sounds like a pretty fucking effective player on the hardest boss we have right now.
@@WowDevilzz Its not loads of healing
its very low hps
youre literally like 50% of a real healer and 30% of a dps spamming smite
What's crazy is that you're both right and situationally you would use both of these play styles. On rag for example you go from p1 big atonement heals , to p2 big poh heals to p3 to big atonement heals to p4 big poh heals. Damage patterns and raid positioning is way different in firelands. Pretending that atonement isn't effective here is just limiting yourself. You want a true disc priest tip? Be adaptable. Don't get hit by shit. Ez