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Jeff Ocheltree - Trust Your Ears, Complete Bonham section
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- Опубликовано: 15 ноя 2008
- This is an excerpt from Jeff Ocheltree's DVD, "Trust Your Ears," in which he talks about John Bonham's drumkit and micing technique. It also includes a performance on the kit at the end of the video.
I know the beginning of this video was already uploaded here, but I didn't find the rest of it, which is equally if not more awesome, as the Banham mic technique has been a point of interest for many people for decades.
Its good to see these drums being played and not sitting in a museum. Instruments like these were meant and built to be played, not showcased. Doesn't matter what famous person played these drums, at the end of the day they were built to be played.
Wow !! Note for note !! This kid is amazing !!!
Ignore the haters. Great playing man. I think you got the spirit and the sound just right. Great job!
I so agree!
I don’t know about haters, but Bonham’s son went on Instagram to refute Jeff Ocheltree. He was never Bonham’s drum tech. His drum tech was named Mick Hinton. All of this came up when Ocheltree started to defraud people out of money using the Bonham name to sell drum sticks. Jason Bonham was rightly pissed.
Sitting here with the guitar it sounds like this:
Hi Tom= B on both sides
Mid Tom= F# on top F on the bottom
Low Tom= C# on top C on bottom
Snare = G# on top G on bottom
Kick = B on top E on bottom
Grenade Hand I remember reading these same notes that I got from an App on my phone... Good job Grenade
+Grenade Hand Yep!! Lots of people think "How could it be the same if he clearly says that the bottom was pitched up hire than the top? Wellll.....If you understand how music and notes and all that junk works in theory then you should be able to understand how this thing works. Its just look tuning the 2 E strings on a guitar. High E, Low E...
*****
Octaves
Hi, I got the readings using a TuneBot and external speakers. They are in Hz and corresponding note as follows .
starting at 3:45
Using drumstick
--------------
HT: 129-130Hz /3C
MT: 97Hz /2G
LT: 75Hz /2D
BD: 89-90Hz / 2F
Using Mallet
--------------
SD: 200-201Hz / 3G
HT: Beater 125Hz Reso 126Hz / 2B
BD: Reso: 80Hz/ 2E
MT: Beater 96Hz 2G/ Reso 89Hz 2F
LT: Beater 70Hz 2C#/ Reso 74Hz 2D
Beware though, you'll need to invert the tunings bcs the note from the opposite head is the most prominent
I've watched this video quite a few times and always come away impressed with Mark's playing. Close your eyes and it's J.B.
Instablaster...
Jake Bronson? Definitely not John Bonham. He's got some of the motifs down, but doesn't sound like Bonham much other than that.
Snare sounds AMAZING!
Bonham had THE best drum sound in rock...and he was the best rock groove player...accident? made for the most lethal combination of sound, power, and groove. i am amazed at the LZ drum sound he got. allowed for less notes to communicate.
When that kid is playing at the end I have to admit, it sounds quite close to the sound on "How The West Was Won." Great work!
This is the great legendary JHB sound, WOW! Mr. John Henry Bonham!! Say no more!
Especially the bass drum.
Bonzo met Jeff Ocheltree in Switzerland in 1973 at a Billy Cobham concert. They stayed in touch over the next several years. Then, one day, Bonzo called Jeff to try him out as a drum tech, and was quite impressed. Bonzo's previous tech, Mick Hinton, knew only how to set up the drums. Jeff took his job much farther. He impressed Bonzo with his knowledge of not only setting up, but tuning and maintaining the equipment as well.
Charles Elliott lol billy cobham and john bonham
then Bonham's sound could have been "better" had he known/used Jeff before he became his tech? ...food for thought. As Rock drummers go, The Royal Albert Hall video, 1970(?) w/ the maple kit is the best sounding drums I've heard.
TheFabioOrchedella who doesn’t like ham?
Jason Bonham says on his Instagram that none of this is true.
MIck Hinton was amazing and Jeff Ocheltree never worked as Bonham's drum tech. Stole Mick's laurels and slandered him.
Jeff is such a great guy, been a while since I got to hang with the guy but I wish him the best! spice maniac lol!
He also prefered the heads played-in, as compared to always changing them when worn.
That was fun!...and I actually learned something for my own sounds!!...what I hate these days is when the techs are ALWAYS trying to convince me to have an "80's over processed sound" to MY KIT! ( as if they knew better than me, in what my sound was supposed to be!) I'd have to argue with them quite a bit in order for them to not RUIN what my drums should sound like in the mix when live AND in the studio! THIS demonstration is what I have always been going for!! Thanks!!!
Second that.. As well as loathing the way too overused D112 for mic'ing kick drums. I watched a shoot out of a bunch of "Kick Drum Mic's" once.. They sounded the exact same no matter what drum they were on. Wtf!? I have had a 1929 Ludwig Pioneer, All Mahogany 14 x 26 bass drum since 1992, thing has been everywhere, and on lots of recordings. No hole/muffling.. Just the equivalent of felt strips on the reso head, but contained and affixed to the inside Just to tame a little overtone, not kill it. Every time a sound guy tries to mic with the usual suspects, (as well as complain about no hole) I politely educate them, suggest using the mic i travel with, (same in vid above) and after much grumbling,.. there's a pair of giant eyes asking how it sounds so good. ...Not sure what they teach now in engineering schools other than Cookie-Cutter methods en masse. , but it's really too bad. Anyway cheers!
In the last year someone with a Bonham influenced kit asked me how they should tune their drums. I remembered this video.
I respect Jeff very much. He was not with John his whole career as he had stated. I've seen plenty of pics of Bonzo in the studio, but never saw the felt strip sticking out anywhere. I'm a pro drummer as well - I've looked at a ton of Bonzo pics. I've made corrections on Led Zep main Wikipedia page & John Bonham's as well. He may have done that felt strip thing on In Through the Out Door album, but I never saw it live or in the studio. I know - that it can't be hidden, but his bass drum doesn't sound "muffled" to me.
That's because he used a Ritchie ring on the front of his bass drum
Completely nailed the tone down to a science. GREAT!
This is a reply to the last two posts.
This is the way I mic my set more or less. It is really the only way I want to mic a drum set ever again. The idea is that if your set sounds really good when you are just standing there listening to it being played, then it should sound great recorded. This mic set up is used to capture the actual sound of the set. It also requires very minimal EQ but to EQ it would defeat the purpose because it would effect all the drums together.
Wow watching him play was the best part of the whole video.
I nerded out and tried to find the pitch of each head, so here are my findings if you're interested. I'm not completely sure, especially about the rack tom and the bass drum, so please share your findings too! Here goes:Snare: C# batter, G# resoRack tom: G# batter, A# resoBass drum: F# batter, G# resoFloor tom 1: F# batter, G# reso (probably an octave above the bass drum. I think that's great for when you want to ride on the floor tom or use the two together in fills and whatnot. I.e. that "fake double bass" technique)Floor tom 2: C# batter, D# resoFor those who don't know theory, all those notes are in the F# major pentatonic scale. The snare drum reso head is pitched a perfect fifth above the batter, and the rest of the drums have the reso head a major second above the batter. That might be wrong because I thought I heard a C# in the rack tom, but it might have been an overtone. Either that or it's tuned A# batter, C# reso (minor third) and the G# I was hearing was an overtone. Not sure. And the bass drum was just a bit too muddy to tell for sure. Hope that helped! If you have the right size drums it would be awesome if you would try it out and tell me about the results! Im gonna go try it on my (smaller) drums and see how it turns out.
(restating to adjust for RUclips's silly text editing): Snare C#/G#, rack G#/A#, bass F#/G#, floor 1 F#/G#, floor 2 C#/D#.
What octaves are those notes?
Noah Daub-Evans Hey there! Not sure exactly, but you'll know when you find it. All the heads are medium-tight. The toms are all in order in the same octave. The snare is higher than the rack tom and the reso head is a fifth above the batter. Im not sure about the bass drum. I did this on my set with a few tweaks (cuz I have different size drums) and it sounds awesome!
That is exactly the Madison Squere Garden 1973 Moby Dick solo! Great Job!
@mariorossipuzza: Yes, that was the ply configuration used by Ludwig and some other drum companies up until the mid to late 70's. Two thin outer and inner plies (usually maple or/and mahogany) and a thicker middle ply from a cheaper wood, usually poplar.
Someone mentioned John Bonham's snare drum - it was aluminum. Ludwig had their own name for it - they called it "Ludalloy" - it's aluminum, but the question Ludwig will not reveal is what "grade" aluminum is was...or it seems that they can't find anyone to verify the grade of aluminum.
Equipment:
3-ply Maple Drums
14x26 Bass
10x14/16x16/16x18 Toms
6.5x14 Ludwig Supraphonic LM402 (not chrome over brass)
Speed King Pedal
PAISTE GIANT BEAT/2002 CYMBALS
15" GB or 2002 Sound Edge Hi-Hat
18" Medium Crash (GB/2002)
24" Ride (GB/2002)
20" Medium Crash (GB/2002)
Ludwig Cowbell
Chain Ring
38" Gong
Jeff is probably nervous for the camera. I know I would be. Regardless he did a great job and is a gold mine of Bonham information for diehard Zeppelin geeks like me.
It's actually a brand new vistalite kit he just uses to show how he puts on heads/felt on the bass drum. Basically how he sets up a kit out of the box.
John Bonham used a 4 piece Slingerland drum set on Led Zeppelin's first tour & very likely used it on LZ's first album as well. When he came to USA in late Dec 1968 - he most likely rented a set of Ludwig's, which were black pearl or sky blue pearl.
My drummer just got an old Black Panther kit. That thing is from the early 70's, but man does it sound good.
Hi, I got the readings using a TuneBot and external speakers. They are in Hz and corresponding note as follows:
starting at 3:45
Using drumstick
--------------
HT: 129-130Hz /3C
MT: 97Hz /2G
LT: 75Hz /2D
BD: 89-90Hz / 2F
Using Mallet
--------------
SD: 200-201Hz / 3G
HT: Beater 125Hz Reso 126Hz / 2B
BD: Reso: 80Hz/ 2E
MT: Beater 96Hz 2G/ Reso 89Hz 2F
LT: Beater 70Hz 2C#/ Reso 74Hz 2D
This is a very helpful tool for anyone to tune their drums well. I have a new GS Ludwig kit in these sizes and I apply these tips and the drums sound identical! Awesome! My sound man loves the way they sound in the PA. Best kit he's ever mixed. This is a foolproof method to tune. And Ludwig are the best drums.
Great video.
@iamadog - A 12" drum head is a 12" drum head. You can put it on any 12" drum, it doesn't have to be designated as "snare side" in order to use it. I have a coated Diplomat on the bottom of my Superphonic and it sounds great.
Notice the absence of a hole in the front head or the bottoms off the drums.
that was just so enjoyable thanks for making that possible let's just hope I can get someone sounding a little bit like that...
I actually meant to say a perfect 4th, not 5th. Sorry for the confusion. "Here Comes The Bride" is a 4th interval. My bad.
John Bonham = Best Damn Drummer EVER!!!!
John Bonham el mejor baterista de todos los tiempos, este reportaje nos hace sentir como si el mismisimo Bonham estuviera describiendo su bateria, su afinación, su arte, su alma, gracias led zeppelin...
great post! thanks for putting this up.
bonham's first pro kit was 1967-68 green sparkle kit in 4 piece configuration..but in STANDARD sizes !! 13- 16-22 !! and his good friend bev bevan of E L O said it still sounded freakishly loud !! hence ludwig's 3 ply maple kits from those days were the loudest on the market at that time ! that whole tuning process works for those standard sizes as well !1..i tried it with great success and sound quality !!, god bless jeff on of course bonzo for those little secret jems of info !
Yup, I can read, too. And I own this video. And there is a number. What I'm suggesting is now that he has them tuned, measure the tension and provide a reference number from which other players can start. Then go to your ears. Drum dials are great for documenting the settings once you got the sound where you like it. Getting that sound back after changing heads is a breeze.
my god, that snare is godlike
@Limedrum Use the felt. Why not? If you want that sound, Jeff's telling you how to get it. Powerstroke III is a different sound. Felt on both sides for the Bonham sound. For a different sound like on a 14x20 I do like the Powerstroke III with no pillow or towel or anything inside, but a felt on the resonant side
(Toms- Coated Emperor Top/Coated Ambassador Bottom)(Bass-Emperor Coated Beater-side/Medium Weight Reso)(Snare-Coated Emperor Batter/Ambassador or Diplomat Bottom)
Bass tuned way up. Tom bottom heads akin to a snare drum. Tom top heads up fairly high. Snare bottom up high (like timbale). Snare top up fairly high. Snare wires just grabbing.
I always come back here to hear those drums and that guy was great ! nobody has better sounding drums to date than Bonham Hes' like the ed van halen of guitar with tone.If my drums sounded that good i would never leave the kit period lol.
The best tuned kit
Where is the second part of the video... when they tune the amber vistalite :)
Jon_Sn@il They just tune themselves.
I have them. :)
I feel like these are just two guys that broke into a studio to make a video and to touch Bonhams drums...
Alex Bond in other news, brass ISN'T metal. Its some kind of souped up polyurethane.
Alex Bond Hahaha.
@twelvescofflenard I believe its a chrome plated Zinc shell.. the new ones are aluminum which makes for a drier sound.. close but not the same.. they still make the chrome over brass tho
According to Jason Bonham, Ocheltree actually didn't work with John to the extent he claims to have. I dunno what to think.
Jason was too young to know I bet.. this man does not possess the bullshit factor- imho
Demo should have played time on the kit...we have heard time 90% of the time with the occasional fill from a Zep tune...he should have demo'd some classic Bonham grooves and fills to educate how this kit was tuned and if we are honest, how we can get that sound in our own playing. Then there's the rub...tune a kit like this and be compared to Bonzo's sound...might or might not work...if you were in a Zep cover band, 100% yes, clone as best you can. If not, hmmm, could be a negative. For me it is just the thrill to get that sound and feel that vibe when playing. Not sure I would make it my own tho.
Modern drummer magazines most recent poll of the top drummers of all time
1 Buddy Rich
2 John Bonham
3 Neil Peart
4 Tony Williams
Tony Dir Top three are just default responses. I hate Buddy Rich. He’s just a showboat. Art Blakey or Dave Morello for jazz. Neil Peart can suck it.
@mariorossipuzza: Because at some point things in drum shell making changed. Rogers was the first to introduce a full maple 8-ply sell in the early 80's (the XP-8 Series) and from then on most drum manufacturers started experimenting with different woods and configurations, with full maple and full birch 6-8 ply tom shells, and 8-10 ply snare and BD shells having become the norm (but not without exceptions) in the last 20-plus years.
Plating bass drum wrong, Bonzo always pulled away to get that massive sound.
Yeah, they're burying the head
+Ash Hudson po00
why the fuck does is matter?
Gormless Git what made Bonham great is the details
What made Bonham great was his own fuckin playing style dude. Trying to mimic it perfectly like pulling the bass head away is just a bit over the top lol. A big part of playing the drums as well i feel like is incorporating your own style of playing.
Great job on the solo!
I've seen other videos say he used a 2-ply Ambassador batter head which I didn't think even existed but they did and do now.. as "Ambassador Vintage" which is a 7.5mil / 3mil combo instead of just a 7mil single ply Ambassdor or double ply 7mil Emperors. Vintage Emperors are two plies of 7.5 mil. So if Bonham used Emperors, then that what he used.
Drums make the cymbals look smaller than they are....optical illusion...basically those drums are big.
Dotted CS clear Remo used as well by Bonzo.
Pie-stee
Bon-um
kicked-ass!
Best sounding kit ever. I can't get my 14x24 kick to sound good like this though, any tips? I'm using an Emperor batter, but I don't have the felt muffling and it sound too ringy/marching bass drum. Wondering if a coated Powerstroke III would do just as well, and not having to use felt since it has a ring?
awesome....sound just like Bonzo's kit.
LudwigSC93 it is bonzos kit im pretty sure.
Awesome!
@twelvescofflenard
even more- not brass but chrome over aluminium. (Ludalloy)
Bonham liked the aluminium shell.
Unfortunately that particular aluminum alloy did not bond well with chrome hence the Supra "acne" problem.
@Base Ball Yes!
exactly..it would be also like having ringo's black oyster and recording with it today !!no one would dream of it ! just too valuable!! these drums deserve retirement !lol !cheers !
with the serial model for the supraphonic is LM402, LM standing for Ludwig Metal. the black beauty, a brass shell, is LB417, LB standing for Ludwig Brass. This is probably what he means. ( I could actually be wrong but I'm pretty sure I heard that that's what lm and lb stands for in some forum. And if you think about it, it kinda makes sense, lm for ludalloy, lb for brass)
I have the John Bonham book and the person who has his '69 maple kit opened up the bass drum and saw shredded newspaper in it.
Little known fact about John Bonham.He got his very first drum kit at 16yo and 4 years later he was recording Led Zeppelin 1 and 2.John Bonham learned to play and developped his chops in less than 4 years.Holy Fucks Given.
here's some more info: I put a vintage logo front head on my kick. It's a weathermaster "heavy." I've tried a coated emperor batter side with it and its ringy as all hell. I've yet to try the felt strips but my kick is 22" and trying to achieve the sound of a 26" is never gonna be perfect.
@Slammintone i've never actually seen the rest of this..but it makes sense. that 18" just looks soo much different..
Zep should do a tour with this guy and leave Jason at home!
@eminem0710 ... pretty sure they didn't make coated snare side heads back then (I don't know of anyone that makes a coated snare side now)
snare side head is for response of the snare wires, and not meant to be struck ... that's why it's so thin. a coating would defeat the purpose.
Can't speak for the toms or kick, but the snare is roughly 88 for the top head, 80 for the bottom head... IF you're using the same heads (Coated Emperor top, Ambassador Snare Side bottom).
thanks
@DrumPotato he probably means he used the ludaloy shell supraphonics, as opposed to the chrome covered brass shell.
just percfect.
I would say it does fit into this specific kit since he would have no reason to lie about the previous owner. Have in mind that this color option green sparkle was not a big seller due to the nasty habit of these fading into some yellowish/pissy green when exposed to light and not just direct sunlight.
wierd thing is..He says how high the tom is tuned but it sounds nice and loose
great vid
he's using the smoothe white one here , and you can get it just about any music shop that sells drums ! but you can still get a great sound with an emperor coated or ambassador...you can even try a nice fibrskyn coated or a even a renaissance !!
I think what Jeff meant was Bonham didn't fancy the Black Beauty as much as the Supraphonic. I get what he means as I have both snares. The Black Beauty has a warmer sound but the Supraphonic cuts through better and Bonham liked to 'cut through' with his sound; the tighter the drum the better the 'cut'. And yes, he did use the ludalloy snare... can anyone debate this?
@DrumPotato no some snares have chrome on the outside of brass snares
AWESOME
damn, its crazy how close these sound to bonham's kit.
BRAVO.
Dude shreds
Great !
cool, thanks.
@DrumPotato
He means chrome plated steel, not chrome plated brass! although some Ludwig Supraphonic snare drums were "mystery alloy" maybe aluminum, maybe? ...tin who knows...most likely steel steel is the most common now.
@ericsuppes In another video Jeff Ocheltree says one of the floor toms had cigarette burns and other issues when he got the kit so it may have been recovered when he cleaned up and restored the kit to it's current playable condition. Or, it could still be the original wrap but the wrap was from a different batch for the 18" than the rest of the kit and didn't fade as badly. I mean, Bonham got three different Green Sparkle Ludwig kits in 1970 alone, who know's how many he got in 1971?
The other thing that contradicts the felt strip for recording in the bass drum is Eddie Kramer who engineered more than one Zeppelin album. There is an interview on RUclips where Kramer said Bonzo's front bass drum head was so tight - that when you touched it - it would "ring."
It makes me so sad . I've asked everyone and I mean everyone and Geoff never worked for my father . Mick Hinton was my dads tech . The story was my dad meet him in the rainbow and he liked him cuz he worked for Billy Cobham so he was invited to the show !!!
+Jason Bonham Outside of Jeff not being the tech, is the info correct (to your knowledge)?
Also, you rock too. I’m in my late-30s and just starting to learn how to play drums. :)
+Jason Bonham ...oh, dear! Is someone fibbing?
I don't think Jason Bonham would say "cuz"
+longduck dong it is
+Jason Bonham Hey Jase,still got that lil baby kit from the SRTS ? I wouldn't brag if I was Jeff, this period of J Henry's sound was pretty sad & the great earlier sound was gone & P.S. ….Your nothing like your "dad"
man I'm lost, thats way to much info, i guess that comes from years of playing!!how in the world can they play the same way on every song? i know theres a lot of repeating but geez that must be hard!
The Accent Zep Re Issue is philipinne mahogany and not close to the real thing, which was maple
Is it just me or does it seem like this dude is towering over that big drumset
Go's to show you that you can have the identical drums, mics ect. But it's who's playing them that counts ;) I remember the story of Nugent picking up EVHs guitar at soundcheck and saying where's the magic box you step on to make this thing scream? Ed said your playing through the magic box, you just have these as he wiggled his fingers ;)
The snare drum sounds to me like the heads are tuned to a perfect 5th, same as Joe Morello recommended to me. (Think "here comes the bride").
One thing that I have noticed right away, although this kit and the player have really nailed JB's sound : while watching his Moby Dick solo on the live DVD boxed set, I noticed Bonham had a clear batter head on his snare. I remember from some friends' kits that a clear head had a completely different feel and sound; it felt kind of squishy compared to a coated one. For example, playing on it sometimes left dents in the head. I wondered whether this was unusual for him or whether he often used clear batter heads as opposed to what we read.
Sometimes I wonder whether the legends of "what sticks Buddy used" or "what tuning Bonham used" take on a life of their own.
here comes the bride...BRILLIANT. in five secs i got what you intended...now that's good education.
Just FYI...The two notes in Here Comes the Bride is a perfect fourth - not 5th..
I don't know how much of this is true but one thing I noticed was wrong was that it says Bonham always played coated Emperor batter heads. Not true.
I thinks you missed something. 1:27 Jeff is saying: "John Bonham always uses Remo Emperor Coated heads on all his drums" -correction- ".... all the wood drums, and the stainless steel drumkit as well". So not on the Vistalite kit. He used Controlled Sound on the head sides and perhaps Emperor clear on the resonant sides? Cheers.
Clear CS over Clear Ambassador or a clear medium weight Ludwig head for the resonant side on the vista :)
Also Bonham did not always play Paiste, in the early Zeppelin days he played Zildjian, probably up till 1970.
Trevor McConville--Wrong ! In Geoff Nichols book "A Thunder of Drums" it states that he always used Paiste.. You might be getting confused with the fact that he used Paiste Giant Beat cymbals early in his career, from '68-70, until Paiste came out with the 2002 series..This is stated in the book..
Paiste created the 2002 series to help combat the ever advancing power of guitar amplification, hence the heavier B8 alloy..
This is true, a close mic to the snare always kills its reverb. But if you're into the Ringo - Beatles sound then go for it!
Question! Are the pitches between the batter and reso minor thirds?
However, I do still use close mics because to be honest my set doesn't sound nearly this good and I need to get a little more body out of the drums. The actual amount of level I use out of the close mics is minimal though and I have never heard a close mic on a snare that sounded good. Ever.
I wonder which polar pattern was used for room mics
since it's got the ludwig logo i'm guessing it's a smooth white ludwig weathermaster. you should get almost the same sound out of a coated or smooth ambassador.
Hi Jeff - I have a question. I notice that you never talked about the internal muffler. How did Bonham set his muffler inside? Was it touching the batter head slightly or not at all. Also how about the snare strings? Did that particular snare have the Gretch 42-strand snare strings on it?