Build 2 exact motors without the special pistons involved. Test and document everything about performance. Then put fancy pants pistons in one of the engines. Retest and document again If there is a notable difference in performance Switch pistons to the other engine. Retest and document to verify if performance increase is following the pistons.
Speed Of Air has already done that testing. Check out 'Dave's Auto Center' video titled: What do golf balls and pistons have in common? Plus this not a new idea.
Yes you’re right! It works on the same principle! The problem is that the piston creates a dead space that doesn’t let the fuel to mix and burn efficiently! The dimples slow this process to happen.
Dear Snake Man, I am surprised that you don't know why this is effective. After all you are a well respected engine and rattlesnake handler. It's real simple put a piston in a clear tube cap the end induce a smoke stream through a port in the end cap. Then stroke the piston at speed. Watch the smoke with a high speed camera.
Seized up engine due to rust etc is easily freed by putting penetrating oil of your choice down the spark plug holes AND THEN putting a pull handle on the crank bolt like normal but then you fill a 5 gallon bucket of water and hang the bucket from the end of the handle to have a constant pull on the handle. Then go drink beer, eat and go to bed, the next morning your bucket and pull handle will have turned the engine over approximately a quarter turn. At this point you can rotate the engine by hand. This works 99.999% of the time. Trust me you can put lazy to good use. With a constant pressure over 8-10 ours you can free most any engine and you are much less likely to cause any MORE damage than you already have from the rust. Worst case you may need to do this twice but look at all the beer you get to drink while the bucket of water does the work for you!
1973 1 ton Ford pickup truck, 1974 Lincoln 460 and c6 transmission, 670 Street avenger Holly + 100 micron stainless steel screen 18 + MPG!!! ( 1 inch spacer + high power coil was also used! Before my up grade I only got 12 MPG at Best!
I think you are spot on in your analysis. I think this is like the achates deal and they are just trying to get a bunch of $$$ without offering any proof. I have seen testing with aerodynamic piston features tailored to the cylinder configuration and that did prove to be beneficial by improving the swirl and mixing. This golf ball pattern deal appears to not be directed at all. Another important thing is will the dimples even be visible over time? Diesel pistons tend to be quite prone to just filling in holes over time with soot. So in 20Kmiles would they even be visible to do anything at all? I highly doubt it.
How much of that oil gets burnt in the chamber causing that sticky mess which collects more soot. I may be thinking this in the wrong manner but if keeping the oil out would the soot burn off more and be expelled out the exhausts
i think it will cause hotspots in the chamber and causes pre-ignition with a diesel the injector sprays in the fuel straight down on top of of the piston so the vortexes created by this piston might help spreading the fuel through the chamber and create a wider flame front , since the diesel injects at the exact moment it needs to ignite the pre ignition thing might be a non issue as for running two engines to get the data , you could switch the pistons over after the whole test cycle and run the cycle again to see if the percentages in difference stay the same betwwen the smooth and dimpled pistons
The increase in power comes from more complete combustion which converts more chemical energy to pressure. Not compression gauge pressure, but how much pressure the cylinder makes in the explosion of fuel and air. The idea with the dimples is as gas is compressed into the top of the piston, each dimple will act like a mini spark plug which results in more complete combustion. This is just one way to think about it, applications vary. The proof is in the noise output and oil condition after several thousand miles. At least that is what I can piece together. If they do half what they say, I am going to try a set in my 7.3.
I would love to see this comparison made and their dimpled pistons tested! That being said, as you stated, testing using two engines would certainly not be the way to go about it. The only feasible way I can think of doing it is with one engine, dyno’d multiple times for consistency. Then take the pistons out and put the dimpled ones in, change nothing (except gaskets of course) and dyno again just as before.
Golf ball dimples have proven beyond any shadow of doubt to effect drag on not only golf balls. Myth busters tested a car and the dimples had a big effect on drag. It is possible that might effect a piston performance also because it is related to air flow
@@richardholdener1727 yes I cant visualize how the dimples work in that flow situation, and the company claims that the dimples are designed to cause cause rotation along the cylinder wall so it reduces temperature as weill.
@@oscaroscar5336The dimples cause localized swirl which creates the effect of decoupling the laminar air flow. The end result is aerodynamic drag reduction. In a combustion engine, The dimples within the combustion chamber allow increased swirl for a longer duration of time. The swirl is what produces more complete combustion due to a higher percentage of consistent AF ratio within the combustion chamber
My thought, on inducing swirl, is that maybe each little dimple creates it's own mini swirl or vortex? Maybe? Would be interesting to see high speed photography of how air and fuel reacts when hitting these. Also, I believe the dimpled piston would have more effect than dimpled chamber, as the incoming charge might interact with the piston before it would with the chamber.
Look at a golf ball! It works on the golf ball it will work on the piston! The dimples are creating turbulence in the cylinder giving the air file mixture complete = better and more efficient burn!
@@richardholdener1727it's actually breaking laminar airflow to reduce friction/drag , yes it's the same principal at work but two totally different objectives desired
Looking forward to some testing for the fun of it. After all most of these ideas are just that, for the fun of it... Let's say it does work in a few percentage points. The improvement without port flow changes would be limited to a very small RPM range and fuel flow rate. Air Fuel Ratio would be very limited before it would lose it's effectivness as to any improvement. Static power level, static RPM, static load requirements, all those things will find the improvement, but change to a "Rolling Road" application as Richard says will nulify the improvement. Honda, Ford, etc have done more with port changes and duel intake runners and high speed air-flow inducement to find that high BSFC for road use.... Build a pair of 427 LS with the best heads and load it at 75% of it's capable max power and you'll never find more than a few horsepower with the modifications. Toss in the costs for these modifications and you'll never pay for it with 1 to 3% increase which is all you'll ever find. I'd bet it would work fantastic on say a generatiion or pump engine where things could remain static...
Hey Richard so I'm a part of the shop that is building the test Motors I want to leak a small spoiler they are LS engines. I will also say that as an automotive machine is to 20 years we are going to do our absolute best to make the engines identical. I am with most of you and your opinion, where I dont see this doing much of anything because really isn't it just gonna fill the Dimple's with carbon over time lol. Anyways cheers. P.s I wanna sent you some cylinder heads. I think you'll be impressed..
I was a 3521 and 3522 in the USMC for six years from 1996 to 2002. I am now a commercial truck owner operator. I've seen the insides of CAT mining trucks that have had these dimpled pistons in them for 18,000 hours. At least for diesel engines, I'm sold, I'll be rebuilding my DD15 engine soon with these pistons.
I don't know if you've started testing them or not at this point. But if not, I think you're definitely missing out! Personally, I would jump at the opportunity! But to be clear, Speed of Air pistons are not about increased power. They do typically see a slight increase of peak power and more torque, especially in the lower RPM's, resulting in a wider power curve. But that's just a positive side effect of a faster and more complete combustion thanks to a more homogeneous mixture and a more evenly contained (stabilized) flame front and also increased cylinder compression and turbine drive pressure. If you're looking to get the most *_power_* out of an engine, you're probably looking at pushing as much air and fuel as possible through the cylinder at ever increasing RPM's. But then you're no longer emissions compliant and engine longevity and fuel efficiency is out the window long ago... No, the Speed of Air piston design is all about a *clean and complete burn,* meaning vastly improved emissions, meaning vastly reduced carbon deposits, meaning vastly improved engine oil life, meaning vastly reduced harm caused by EGR's, meaning vastly less clogging up of DPF's, meaning vastly reduced regen cycles, meaning vastly reduced DEF consumption, meaning vastly improved engine life and also a very meaningful increase in fuel economy and a wider power curve. That's what it's about. And really, if you think about it, that's exactly what ICE's need the most to survive the current political climate (pun intended). The climate politics are trying to kill ICE's mainly because of emissions. Just look at diesels... Speed of Air pistons practically makes a diesel near emissions compliant by themselves. This means all the after-gas treatment equipment becomes practically harmless to the engine, which is a *BIG* one for all the diesel folks out there worried about the longevity of their expensive emissions equipped trucks. And this also means even cleaner emissions, so everybody wins! What Speed of Air does with the dimple design is they apply the principles of fluid dynamics to the combustion chamber geometry of a given engine design and develop a dimple pattern tailored to that geometry to achieve the desired result. So, it's not just a random dimple pattern superimposed on a piston head. This means every engine (combustion chamber) design will see varying degrees of improvement from the piston package. I call it a package because it's not just about the dimpling design. It's also about the ceramic coating and the gap-less second ring. Developing the dimpling pattern is where most of the science goes into, from what I understand, but the ceramic coating and the gap-less ring both contribute very meaningfully to the desired result. So it's really a package. That's why you should be testing them side by side to completely bone stock pistons. If you want to find out what only the dimpling by itself does, you could do your own ceramic coating and contact Total Seal (which provides the gap-less rings for SoE) for a custom set of gap-less second rings. Or you can send out a set of rings and have them convert them. But again, the SoA pistons are a package, not just dimpled pistons. So, in accordance with fluid dynamics, the dimples are really about creating more swirl on every stroke (by the stroking motion itself), which causes the gases to be transported in and out of the chamber more rapidly. It's kind of like when you pour water through a funnel. If you put a spin to the water it'll flow much faster. Some funnel designs are better at doing this than others (look up "hyperbolic funnel" and Viktor Schauberger). By the same principle, if you can introduce swirling motions to the entire body of gases in the chamber, you can move it more effectively. What the dimples also do is create a barrier (like a golf ball) between the surface of the pistons and the gas mixture, which I think serves several purposes by itself. For one thing, it reduces sticking of fuel molecules to the piston surface, promoting a more complete participation of fuel molecules in the actual combustion event, which promotes a more complete burn of the amount of fuel that is injected, meaning you get more out of the fuel you spend. In my mind this barrier effect may even slightly increase peak compression on the compression stroke, potentially increasing total compression ratio. Or maybe it stays the same, depending on how far out the barrier extends on TDC compared to BDC. And if we take the swirl principle a step further, it is definitely possible to improve air flow in both intake and exhaust passages by introducing both dimpling (mainly to reduce friction) and spiral patterns (to induce vortex motions). Obviously this goes for ports and valves too. Doing it this way would increase total airflow potential of the entire system. This also means you could go more compact if you don't really need more total airflow. Imagine a spiraling exhaust pipe! Wonder if that changes the exhaust sound profile... From what I understand, the purpose of the coating is about reflecting heat and thus concentrating it towards the center of the cylinder. This helps to stabilize the flame front, which helps achieve a faster and more complete burn. It also aids in preventing excessive cylinder temps, since more heat will escape through the exhaust ports (because it's reflected in the direction of the head) once the combustion event is finished and the heat has done it's job. This keeps the cylinder wall temps down to further prevent NOx formation. So, the coating seems to work very well together with the swirling effect of the dimpling pattern. And then, the gap-less second rings are all about forming a tighter seal between the piston and the cylinder walls, which further increases gas movement in and out of the chamber while also significantly reducing blow-by and thereby increases cylinder compression force and thereby also drive pressure on the turbine on engines equipped with turbos, without risking cylinder over heating or over pressures thanks to the other two components of the package. The reduced blow-by also means much less contaminants escaping into the engine oil, which is a big reason why oil life is so drastically extended. It also means reduced pressure fluctuation of the crank case, which ought to increase the service life of anything related to crank case ventilation pathway. That's what I can think of right now that their product offers, but all in all they offer just a great overall upgrade package for engine health with their pistons. If it was up to me, every road going vehicle should be factory equipped with them! And really, all engines should be designed with the combined technologies of their pistons in mind. Everyone's engines would last significantly longer and give you more mileage per unit of fuel. These results have already been demonstrated on all tested engine platforms so far. And I personally believe that, with my own suggestions of dimpling and spiraling all intake and exhaust pathways, you could amplify some of these effects even further, aside from just creating a more optimal flow dynamic, which is always a good thing.
I have seen troughs in the plenum bottom done to even out the mixture ...it is Dyno tested ..cut and retested to even out the 8 o2 sensor readings on the dyno and then they lean out the mixture to get more laps on the track per tank of fuel
Only way to test this is to have a good solid but standard motor, measure it's output, then rebuild it with just those dimpled pistons replacing the originals. Use the same rings, and make sure the crown hights are identical. I've had a few plugs go bad over the years. The result on the piston looks fairly simular, but with one out of four pistons taking on this form, power outputs didn't go up🙂
sorry I missed the live episode. Why wouldn't dimpling increase torque? If the surface area is increased and pressure equals force divided by area.....so then force exerted to the top of the piston is directly proportional to cylinder pressure times total surface area of the piston. I understand we have to take into account ideal gas laws as the air/fuel mixture expands on the power stroke after ignition of the air/fuel mixture. But this is also why domed and dished pistons are more efficient at making more power at the same compression ratios. This would make for a great episode for Freiburger and the boys on Engine Masters so that we all get to see the actual data from the test(s). I do not see any benefit from dimpling a piston for flow into the cylinder. The choke point is the valve and valve seat with flow being affected by the shape of the valve stem, the ceiling of the intake port and the overall cross section of the intake port. The goal being to avoid having a "thick" layer of laminar flow in the intake runner due to dead flow areas which causes puddling. Maybe it is more for keeping the piston cool more so than anything else.
From what I’ve seen it has to do with higher swirl as the dimples create air ball bearings for better mixture homogenization in a compression situation there in line with nozzle direction and the piston top is changed to get the fuel more in the center of the chamber
Imagine the piston going down pulling in the next charge. Maybe having the dimples being like a smooth transitioning cone that are changing the air pressure/angle being drawn over the surface area of all the dimples other than drawing down on a typically flat surface piston allowing a more turbulent suction of the charge.
Don't feel bad. None of us know enough about thermodynamics. Dimples make a lot of difference to a golf ball. This sounds like another great reason for a dyno test.
It breaks laminar airflow, reducing drag .. that's why swirl is observed being increased in a piston application. In a golfball that's how Range Is extended by drag reduction
In college, us PE majors learned about golf ball design as part of the Natl Golf Federation instructor cert our professor facilitated. The dimples in golf balls create consistent turbulence as the air molecules pass by. A smooth, non-dimpled golf ball creates inconsistent turbulence & the ball does not fly straight; tends to act like a knuckleball. Dimples solved the problem, a creating straight flying golf balls. I can recall seeing golf balls over the years w/ different size dimples, in specific patterns. Can't recall how many different types there were. Like all ball manufacturers, they claimed their balls flew further. Never tested. I don't agree the dimpled golf ball is that different than the piston. At the basic level, they both are objects w/ air passing by. Different shapes, sure but the impact on the air is the issue, not comparing non-dimple features. Dimples are turbulence creators, plain & simple. Re: combustion chambers The top of the piston IS the lower 'half' of the combustion chamber.l, so there will be an impact of dimpled pistons vs non. The only thing I can see it doing is creating more turbulence than non-dimpled. How that impacts the engine can only be determined w/ rigorous testing; everything else is just lip flapping speculation.
It actually breaks laminar air flow from the localized swirl in the dimples. basically it creates a lower coefficient of drag for the air going over the dimples by decoupling the laminar flow. In a golf ball that allows it to fly further and in a piston It allows increased swirl in the combustion chamber for more complete combustion
Used to be done in nascar in the early days and the practice was banned.. When a cylinder head was pulled and the top of the pistons inspected the “clean” or fuel washed areas were the areas dimpled. It was a Old school trick or mod, and only certain areas were done not the whole piston. The photos I seen were smaller dimples and only done in strategic areas(the clean fuel washed areas) The heads were sometimes dimpled in the combustion chamber as well on the spark plug side by the intake valve. Apparently in Nascar it was worth something sense they banned it. Intake manifold floors and runners were other areas sometimes dimpled. If I remember right in the books I read it had something to do with the fuel that had got out of suspension not so much the barrier layer air flow line of thinking..
I just saw a Dave's auto video where they got a guy with a diesel talking about these. I want to see exhaust gas analysis of what they are claiming. I guy could take a motor, dyno it, swap out the pistions- same deck height and see the results.
I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about why golf balls have dimples. The dimples intentionally slow down air flow on the surface and delays the flow separation at the back of the ball. It actually increases the skin drag, but it's worth that penalty because a sphere is a terrible shape aerodynamically. I can't think of any surface in an engine that would benefit from building a thicker boundary layer to prevent flow separation, with the possible exception of the short radius on an intake port.
Skeptical. As the piston draws down from TDC the piston top gets further from the combustion chamber and any swirl that happens is likely nearer the head than the piston top. Also they would have to figure out how to match the combustion chamber volume added by the dimples. Decrease the dish before you cut the dimples? Maybe it would disrupt the flame front after ignition causing more thorough combustion?
@@richardholdener1727 hello rick i think diesel enginne bring juste air nothing mix and same as GDI gaz engine and you never have enough of air fuel mixe for max performance
Just saw this dimpled piston on Daves auto care. Man claims lower emissions and better fuel economy by 25 percent and a much quieter engine. He had them in his Duramax and it was very quiet. He said no engine changes except the pistons.
@@richardholdener1727 I started studying this with the same video and I actually thought he said up to 20%. But yah something like that. I get 10mpg down hill so they'll pay for themselves at 15%. I do have an understanding of the physics and they should make substantial improvements, if the dimples are sized and placed correctly.
I think the theory of why it would work in a modern diesel would be the decreased boundary layer or lamilar flow reduction. Modern diesel swirl the air inside the cylinder I forgot the numbers Gail Banks talks about it and one of his videos. As a cylinder comes up on the compression stroke it induces more swirl and the boundary layer between the piston and the air probably slows that swirl down before injection reducing that boundary layer increases swirl increases efficiency... Probably doesn't translate to a gas engine at all
Its all down to boundary layer conditions, that thin layer on air by the surface dont like to move, the dimples help break that so air can move better and is not "stuck" by the boundary layer. Now how many dimples, how deep?, how far apart? How not to create a stress riser on the dimple? Thats the hard part. Also diesel dont have spark plugs to aid in controlling when it goes boom. So if you can get better mixing and all of the fuel iginites at the same time thats a game changer.
where is the boundary layer? the crown of the piston is being pushed into the air so does boundary layer really apply here? and on golf balls slight variation of dimple depth change the distance golf balls travel. so how does that apply in this situation?
Slight variations in dimple size and position make large differences in the results gained from the process. A significant amount of development cost is in researching the size and position of the dimples for each model or series of engines. Yes, the boundary layer is still a factor in the case of the piston.
As no one so far has given you a proper answer, this is the idea and function behind it all. The air/fuel and the air streams inside the combustion chambers are constantly moving from the point of opening intake valve until half way through the combustion process. This is why you see such differences in combustion burn patterns on the pistons between different engine designs. It can tell you quite a lot in how the atomisation of your engine works. Typically the clean areas is where it completes the burn and where you get this carbon pattern is where you have fuel that is less atomised falling out of suspension and wont burn completely. As the chamber density rises as it starts to compress you are also more likely to have the fuel deatomise itself again which come to the reason why quench/squish band is needed to force everything towards the spark plug, but doesnt solve the problem completely. The dimpling done right with the perfect depth to diameter ratio helps actually preventing this from happening so the combustion efficiency increases as you get a more homogeneous air fuel mixture across the combustion chamber with less leans spots. Ultimately means less residual fuel causing carbon build up, lower risk of knock, more consistent combustion pressure instead of these erratic pressure spikes up and down from inconsistent combustion events. Everything will run cooler and you will need less ignition timing as it will burn faster with a proper homogeneous mix. However if done wrong they can start collecting residual fuel cause hot spots and knocks. I personally do this to my own engines lately, used both CFD and the visual of burn pattern which together shows the direct relation of how the air/fuel mix movement affects the burn pattern. Then I matched the dimple pattern in relation to how the seperate air streams enters the combustion chambers and starts to swirl around. Only to avoiding unnecessary dimpling and using the minimal amount needed to get the job done. Also to avoid getting flow disturbance from dimples in the wrong places causing a turbulent wake where we dont want it(The flow behavior of dimples can be quite complex and we dont want them placed just randomly). It doesnt even add up to 0.5cc extra chamber volume in my engines. The test engines does sound a bit problematic, especially if BSFC and such cannot be measured properly which is crucial in determining how well this works or not. Just power output alone doesnt really tell us a whole lot in the end.. Cheers from Sweden!
@@gfarnden56I’m going to call BS on this one. I’ve been involved in top level race engines for 20 years. If this noob from Sweden thinks he’s found something that no one in NASCAR, F1, LMP, Supercars, Prostock, Top Fuel have missed them he’s very underpaid building Saab engines.
I think there might be issues with the thermal boundary layer on the gas piston, the dimples may also pull fuel out of suspension & initiate detonation.
i would love to see the same engine be run. With only piston swaps. The pistons would have to have a similar shape. That way it would be more apples to apples comparison. I know this would have a lot more work. But it is pretty easy to make small changes to the 2 motors to cheat.
It is interesting. At first I can't see any benefits, only negatives. But it may (but just slightly) increase turbulence at the piston face and possibly act like softening the head. Just send it like a big bang test, Richard!😂 Great show as always! Love your channel.
I'd imagine that flow through the piston at overlap might increase with that dimpled piston. It's probably going to be 1 engine, and they should test 5 or more dimple designs.
@@cromBumny I don't know how it would increase flow. The piston being so far away from the valves that turbulence at the face of the piston won't have much effect on overall flow. Only improvement I foresee is improving mixing at the piston face due to increased turbulence (preventing wetting might be another benefit). The dimples have to be sized for the length scale of the turbulence. These look massive- may be correct, but I just don't know.
This isn't about thermal dynamics (at least I don't think so). I think this is about fluid dynamics and a reduction of air turbulence in the combustion chamber at the point of ignition and immediately afterward.
I think this is being utilized in the wrong area of the intake tract. My opinion it would work better from air cleaner to top of valve. It reduces the friction the air in counters on the way to the combustion chambers sort of like making the air speed up. Just my thoughts on it.
I don’t think dimple pistons do much of anything. Dimple intake/exhaust ports do help reduce turbulence, and they do tend to help the air form a nice “jet stream” of sorts… but the piston’s movement is perpendicular to the airflow, it’s not slicing through the air, nor is the air moving around the piston. I feel like the dimples would have a negative effect with the af mixture. I guess they could be beneficial, but I feel like the higher specific weight of diesel would cause the dimples to collect fuel and/or unburnt carbons. The dimples ARE a weight reduction however. I feel like stock piston vs dimple piston, the dimple will out perform stock. A lighter than stock piston, that causes the same compression ratio, will probably match the performance increase of the dimple. The dimples on golf balls and inside int/exh ports cause a thin turbulent layer of air, while maintaining a LAMINAR flow over the thin turbulent area. So… seems like it could cause a negative effect on the af mixture. I think the pistons are lighter than stock and that’s your power/fuel mileage increase. A little less rotational mass, and maybe the piston rings have less drag on them. Way too many variables. They need to ask you what you need, and let you do the testing on your own. You know how to get accurate results. For a real test, they should just step back. Reduced emissions is probably due to the dimples catching unburnt carbons.
im gonna dimple everything!.. dimples make everything faster.. and flow better.. and burn better, and make the compression go up and down? Wow amazing things these dimples. Dimples for the win!!!
I saw and heard a Duramax with these pistons and the change was dramatic. Emissions down drastically. Torque up by 200 pounds. The engine was extremely quiet. They reported a 20% gain in fuel mileage.
no on adding 200 lb-ft by themselves, no on 20% improvement in mileage, no on emissions "drastically" reduced. I would believe in some changes on a diesel, just not at those levels
@@richardholdener1727 I saw it with my own eyes and I heard the difference. It dramatically improved efficiency. I was in aerospace and I know how the dimples work. Who are you shilling for? The fuel companies.
From what I understand about golf ball dimples is that the dimples create mini swirls inside of them speeding up the air around it. Would this create a faster air speed in a combustion chamber? Creating more turbulence? Is it truly worth it?
The dimples actually do the opposite, they slow the air really close to the ball and allow the flow to "roll" farther around the ball before it detaches, reducing the size of the low pressure area behind the ball.
@@gfarnden56actually there are a variation used by Volvo diesels for many years but it's a shaped combustion bowl that matches the spray pattern of the injector... Similar principal, different design
Now it does increase the surface area. I didn’t think about that. On an NA, I wonder if it would increase the vacuum? More surface area for the piston to pull on. And if it does make a laminar flow above the turbulent layer, then hypothetically that really might make a big difference on the negative pressure side of life. With a positive pressure though… I just don’t know about it. You should ask Vizard his opinion. I’d be curious to know. And I’m hoping you end up being able to do about 50 test variations, and hopefully there is a cutaway involved. Lol.
create a glass cylinder induce smoke and see what is happening or employ a aerodynamicist to build a flow model and look at the outcomes, and optimism, as dimple depth changes ball distance.
Dimpling the recessed part I believe would be useless because there's no counter surface to activate the air flow. A rough area makes a boundary layer that in a sense makes the area smaller because the air pressure is off of the surface not attached to the surface. So in theory this would make your combustion chamber act as if your compression ratio was higher than what it actually is, now whether that actually works is another debate.
Speed of Air haven't heard about Entrained and Dissolved Air in Diesel. Remove the Entrained and Dissolved Air in the fuel.....this lets the FUEL run CLEANER..... Restoring a 20 % loss in LOST fuel economy.
Does it increase it in the correct way. If we consider these semi sphere like dimples only a tiny spot Is perpendicular to the piston travel. I see this as net negative. The area of the face of the piston has increased but now more of that area is off axis to piston displacement.
@@joshiek7839 that’s true. a lot of the area is generally downward. I wonder what it adds up to? Maybe upward dimples would be better. Better for compression i’d wager.
@@charlesboyd2876 outies would be terrible for squish. Innie dimples not much better. Squish is more important than it’s given credit for. Compression above a certain level is overated. Australia v8 Supercar engines of the previous era made 650hp at 7500rpm using 10:1 comp (rule) with 302ci motors. They mirrored the shape (not the volume) of the combustion chamber in the piston dish. That was al about squish or quench what ever term you prefer.
@@joshiek7839 Okay. All of that is probably true. I listened to the live stream and it was all about swirl and mixing. Dimples or domes WOULD change the compression and available surface area for the combustion to shove against….it seems to me anyway and it would be interesting to know how much. Maybe it is negligible.
@@charlesboyd2876 the purpose of quench is swirl and mixing. I can’t see how dimples would achieve that. Dimples on a golf ball are to trip the boundary layer from laminar flow to turbulent flow to help the air stay attached longer on the back side of the ball. The aerodynamics in a combustion chamber cylinder isn’t laminar.
Well ....its patennted !!! The Diesel world has flipped out and gone upside down Excited !!! The whole point in them offering it to you is They Already Know !!! No Company would shoot themselves in the foot with untested stupidity and offer somebody to embarass them . Technically this dimple size and pattern increases the surface area of the piston , thats why its coated . Pressre x area = lbs of force . Their patent is on the size and pattern that was Proven Effective .
Only if that added area is perpendicular to the vector of piston travel. Now only a tiny dot is aligned with the piston travel. Alas I would bet on lower power. Plenty of companies have sold snake oil and plenty have bought it up with little thought.
Saw tests that halved emissions, upped power by over 10% increased fuel mileage by almost 20% and doubled oil change intervals . Used computational fluid dynamics technology run by a guy thats also done nuclear research for the government
I can see dimp!led on turbo blades inlets inside exhaust still don't stop the problem of bad fuel egrs cats and all the other crap connected to the engine that's causes the real proplems
Loool they literally have a video explaining how it works, and truck drivers are apparently quite happy with them, reduces fuel consumption and engine wear, sharing your oppinion in something you haven't even bothered even watching a couple of videos on is stupid.
Smells like marketing gimmick. Hard to belive something as simple as dimples being a novel revolution. Dimples seem to be eye catching and good clickbait marketing.
1973 1 ton Ford pickup truck, 1974 Lincoln 460 and c6 transmission, 670 Street avenger Holly + 100 micron stainless steel screen 18 + MPG!!! ( 1 inch spacer + high power coil was also used! Before my up grade I only got 12 MPG at Best!
Build 2 exact motors without the special pistons involved.
Test and document everything about performance.
Then put fancy pants pistons in one of the engines.
Retest and document again
If there is a notable difference in performance
Switch pistons to the other engine.
Retest and document to verify if performance increase is following the pistons.
Speed Of Air has already done that testing.
Check out 'Dave's Auto Center' video titled: What do golf balls and pistons have in common?
Plus this not a new idea.
Yes you’re right! It works on the same principle! The problem is that the piston creates a dead space that doesn’t let the fuel to mix and burn efficiently! The dimples slow this process to happen.
Dear Snake Man, I am surprised that you don't know why this is effective. After all you are a well respected engine and rattlesnake handler. It's real simple put a piston in a clear tube cap the end induce a smoke stream through a port in the end cap. Then stroke the piston at speed. Watch the smoke with a high speed camera.
Would love to see a test! Combustion speed, combustion chamber shape, squish, quench, and turbulence are all fascinating variables in power.
Seized up engine due to rust etc is easily freed by putting penetrating oil of your choice down the spark plug holes AND THEN putting a pull handle on the crank bolt like normal but then you fill a 5 gallon bucket of water and hang the bucket from the end of the handle to have a constant pull on the handle. Then go drink beer, eat and go to bed, the next morning your bucket and pull handle will have turned the engine over approximately a quarter turn. At this point you can rotate the engine by hand. This works 99.999% of the time. Trust me you can put lazy to good use. With a constant pressure over 8-10 ours you can free most any engine and you are much less likely to cause any MORE damage than you already have from the rust. Worst case you may need to do this twice but look at all the beer you get to drink while the bucket of water does the work for you!
1973 1 ton Ford pickup truck, 1974 Lincoln 460 and c6 transmission, 670 Street avenger Holly + 100 micron stainless steel screen 18 + MPG!!! ( 1 inch spacer + high power coil was also used! Before my up grade I only got 12 MPG at Best!
Did you dimple the pistons, or just switch the spacer, ignition, and put in a screen?
I think you are spot on in your analysis. I think this is like the achates deal and they are just trying to get a bunch of $$$ without offering any proof. I have seen testing with aerodynamic piston features tailored to the cylinder configuration and that did prove to be beneficial by improving the swirl and mixing. This golf ball pattern deal appears to not be directed at all. Another important thing is will the dimples even be visible over time? Diesel pistons tend to be quite prone to just filling in holes over time with soot. So in 20Kmiles would they even be visible to do anything at all? I highly doubt it.
They also use a gapeless ring which almost eliminates the soot.
@@whysolong27 a gapless ring pack keeps the soot out of your oil but it still is in the combustion chamber.
How much of that oil gets burnt in the chamber causing that sticky mess which collects more soot. I may be thinking this in the wrong manner but if keeping the oil out would the soot burn off more and be expelled out the exhausts
i think it will cause hotspots in the chamber and causes pre-ignition
with a diesel the injector sprays in the fuel straight down on top of of the piston so the vortexes created by this piston might help spreading the fuel through the chamber and create a wider flame front , since the diesel injects at the exact moment it needs to ignite the pre ignition thing might be a non issue
as for running two engines to get the data , you could switch the pistons over after the whole test cycle and run the cycle again to see if the percentages in difference stay the same betwwen the smooth and dimpled pistons
Ive pulled dimbled pistons from my race engine, they formed by accident so im thinking its a bad idea😂😂😂
😂
The increase in power comes from more complete combustion which converts more chemical energy to pressure. Not compression gauge pressure, but how much pressure the cylinder makes in the explosion of fuel and air. The idea with the dimples is as gas is compressed into the top of the piston, each dimple will act like a mini spark plug which results in more complete combustion. This is just one way to think about it, applications vary. The proof is in the noise output and oil condition after several thousand miles. At least that is what I can piece together. If they do half what they say, I am going to try a set in my 7.3.
They idea was originally designed for diesel engines, for more complete combustion, resulting in lower emissions, power, and fuel efficiency.
I would love to see this comparison made and their dimpled pistons tested! That being said, as you stated, testing using two engines would certainly not be the way to go about it. The only feasible way I can think of doing it is with one engine, dyno’d multiple times for consistency. Then take the pistons out and put the dimpled ones in, change nothing (except gaskets of course) and dyno again just as before.
Golf ball dimples have proven beyond any shadow of doubt to effect drag on not only golf balls.
Myth busters tested a car and the dimples had a big effect on drag.
It is possible that might effect a piston performance also because it is related to air flow
think about how air flows over and around a spinning golf ball and moving vehicle. Will it have the same effect flowing down toward a flat surface
@@richardholdener1727 yes I cant visualize how the dimples work in that flow situation, and the company claims that the dimples are designed to cause cause rotation along the cylinder wall so it reduces temperature as weill.
I'll believe it when I see it
@@oscaroscar5336The dimples cause localized swirl which creates the effect of decoupling the laminar air flow. The end result is aerodynamic drag reduction. In a combustion engine, The dimples within the combustion chamber allow increased swirl for a longer duration of time. The swirl is what produces more complete combustion due to a higher percentage of consistent AF ratio within the combustion chamber
My thought, on inducing swirl, is that maybe each little dimple creates it's own mini swirl or vortex? Maybe? Would be interesting to see high speed photography of how air and fuel reacts when hitting these. Also, I believe the dimpled piston would have more effect than dimpled chamber, as the incoming charge might interact with the piston before it would with the chamber.
Look at a golf ball! It works on the golf ball it will work on the piston! The dimples are creating turbulence in the cylinder giving the air file mixture complete = better and more efficient burn!
the golf ball spins while traveling through the air-the piston does not-they are not the same principle
@@richardholdener1727it's actually breaking laminar airflow to reduce friction/drag , yes it's the same principal at work but two totally different objectives desired
Looking forward to some testing for the fun of it. After all most of these ideas are just that, for the fun of it... Let's say it does work in a few percentage points. The improvement without port flow changes would be limited to a very small RPM range and fuel flow rate. Air Fuel Ratio would be very limited before it would lose it's effectivness as to any improvement. Static power level, static RPM, static load requirements, all those things will find the improvement, but change to a "Rolling Road" application as Richard says will nulify the improvement. Honda, Ford, etc have done more with port changes and duel intake runners and high speed air-flow inducement to find that high BSFC for road use.... Build a pair of 427 LS with the best heads and load it at 75% of it's capable max power and you'll never find more than a few horsepower with the modifications. Toss in the costs for these modifications and you'll never pay for it with 1 to 3% increase which is all you'll ever find. I'd bet it would work fantastic on say a generatiion or pump engine where things could remain static...
Hey Richard so I'm a part of the shop that is building the test Motors I want to leak a small spoiler they are LS engines. I will also say that as an automotive machine is to 20 years we are going to do our absolute best to make the engines identical. I am with most of you and your opinion, where I dont see this doing much of anything because really isn't it just gonna fill the Dimple's with carbon over time lol. Anyways cheers. P.s I wanna sent you some cylinder heads. I think you'll be impressed..
thnx for your hard work-someone needs to contact me to speak about this test
I was a 3521 and 3522 in the USMC for six years from 1996 to 2002. I am now a commercial truck owner operator. I've seen the insides of CAT mining trucks that have had these dimpled pistons in them for 18,000 hours. At least for diesel engines, I'm sold, I'll be rebuilding my DD15 engine soon with these pistons.
I don't know if you've started testing them or not at this point. But if not, I think you're definitely missing out! Personally, I would jump at the opportunity!
But to be clear, Speed of Air pistons are not about increased power. They do typically see a slight increase of peak power and more torque, especially in the lower RPM's, resulting in a wider power curve. But that's just a positive side effect of a faster and more complete combustion thanks to a more homogeneous mixture and a more evenly contained (stabilized) flame front and also increased cylinder compression and turbine drive pressure. If you're looking to get the most *_power_* out of an engine, you're probably looking at pushing as much air and fuel as possible through the cylinder at ever increasing RPM's. But then you're no longer emissions compliant and engine longevity and fuel efficiency is out the window long ago...
No, the Speed of Air piston design is all about a *clean and complete burn,* meaning vastly improved emissions, meaning vastly reduced carbon deposits, meaning vastly improved engine oil life, meaning vastly reduced harm caused by EGR's, meaning vastly less clogging up of DPF's, meaning vastly reduced regen cycles, meaning vastly reduced DEF consumption, meaning vastly improved engine life and also a very meaningful increase in fuel economy and a wider power curve. That's what it's about. And really, if you think about it, that's exactly what ICE's need the most to survive the current political climate (pun intended). The climate politics are trying to kill ICE's mainly because of emissions. Just look at diesels... Speed of Air pistons practically makes a diesel near emissions compliant by themselves. This means all the after-gas treatment equipment becomes practically harmless to the engine, which is a *BIG* one for all the diesel folks out there worried about the longevity of their expensive emissions equipped trucks. And this also means even cleaner emissions, so everybody wins!
What Speed of Air does with the dimple design is they apply the principles of fluid dynamics to the combustion chamber geometry of a given engine design and develop a dimple pattern tailored to that geometry to achieve the desired result. So, it's not just a random dimple pattern superimposed on a piston head. This means every engine (combustion chamber) design will see varying degrees of improvement from the piston package. I call it a package because it's not just about the dimpling design. It's also about the ceramic coating and the gap-less second ring. Developing the dimpling pattern is where most of the science goes into, from what I understand, but the ceramic coating and the gap-less ring both contribute very meaningfully to the desired result. So it's really a package. That's why you should be testing them side by side to completely bone stock pistons. If you want to find out what only the dimpling by itself does, you could do your own ceramic coating and contact Total Seal (which provides the gap-less rings for SoE) for a custom set of gap-less second rings. Or you can send out a set of rings and have them convert them. But again, the SoA pistons are a package, not just dimpled pistons.
So, in accordance with fluid dynamics, the dimples are really about creating more swirl on every stroke (by the stroking motion itself), which causes the gases to be transported in and out of the chamber more rapidly. It's kind of like when you pour water through a funnel. If you put a spin to the water it'll flow much faster. Some funnel designs are better at doing this than others (look up "hyperbolic funnel" and Viktor Schauberger). By the same principle, if you can introduce swirling motions to the entire body of gases in the chamber, you can move it more effectively. What the dimples also do is create a barrier (like a golf ball) between the surface of the pistons and the gas mixture, which I think serves several purposes by itself. For one thing, it reduces sticking of fuel molecules to the piston surface, promoting a more complete participation of fuel molecules in the actual combustion event, which promotes a more complete burn of the amount of fuel that is injected, meaning you get more out of the fuel you spend. In my mind this barrier effect may even slightly increase peak compression on the compression stroke, potentially increasing total compression ratio. Or maybe it stays the same, depending on how far out the barrier extends on TDC compared to BDC.
And if we take the swirl principle a step further, it is definitely possible to improve air flow in both intake and exhaust passages by introducing both dimpling (mainly to reduce friction) and spiral patterns (to induce vortex motions). Obviously this goes for ports and valves too. Doing it this way would increase total airflow potential of the entire system. This also means you could go more compact if you don't really need more total airflow. Imagine a spiraling exhaust pipe! Wonder if that changes the exhaust sound profile...
From what I understand, the purpose of the coating is about reflecting heat and thus concentrating it towards the center of the cylinder. This helps to stabilize the flame front, which helps achieve a faster and more complete burn. It also aids in preventing excessive cylinder temps, since more heat will escape through the exhaust ports (because it's reflected in the direction of the head) once the combustion event is finished and the heat has done it's job. This keeps the cylinder wall temps down to further prevent NOx formation. So, the coating seems to work very well together with the swirling effect of the dimpling pattern.
And then, the gap-less second rings are all about forming a tighter seal between the piston and the cylinder walls, which further increases gas movement in and out of the chamber while also significantly reducing blow-by and thereby increases cylinder compression force and thereby also drive pressure on the turbine on engines equipped with turbos, without risking cylinder over heating or over pressures thanks to the other two components of the package. The reduced blow-by also means much less contaminants escaping into the engine oil, which is a big reason why oil life is so drastically extended. It also means reduced pressure fluctuation of the crank case, which ought to increase the service life of anything related to crank case ventilation pathway.
That's what I can think of right now that their product offers, but all in all they offer just a great overall upgrade package for engine health with their pistons. If it was up to me, every road going vehicle should be factory equipped with them! And really, all engines should be designed with the combined technologies of their pistons in mind. Everyone's engines would last significantly longer and give you more mileage per unit of fuel. These results have already been demonstrated on all tested engine platforms so far.
And I personally believe that, with my own suggestions of dimpling and spiraling all intake and exhaust pathways, you could amplify some of these effects even further, aside from just creating a more optimal flow dynamic, which is always a good thing.
I have seen troughs in the plenum bottom done to even out the mixture ...it is Dyno tested ..cut and retested to even out the 8 o2 sensor readings on the dyno and then they lean out the mixture to get more laps on the track per tank of fuel
Only way to test this is to have a good solid but standard motor, measure it's output, then rebuild it with just those dimpled pistons replacing the originals. Use the same rings, and make sure the crown hights are identical.
I've had a few plugs go bad over the years.
The result on the piston looks fairly simular, but with one out of four pistons taking on this form, power outputs didn't go up🙂
Another consideration is that in a diesel engine, the piston IS the combustion chamber.
Head surface is flat (except for valve head recess)
The piston is the lower portion of the combustion chamber in both gas & diesel engines.
sorry I missed the live episode. Why wouldn't dimpling increase torque? If the surface area is increased and pressure equals force divided by area.....so then force exerted to the top of the piston is directly proportional to cylinder pressure times total surface area of the piston. I understand we have to take into account ideal gas laws as the air/fuel mixture expands on the power stroke after ignition of the air/fuel mixture. But this is also why domed and dished pistons are more efficient at making more power at the same compression ratios. This would make for a great episode for Freiburger and the boys on Engine Masters so that we all get to see the actual data from the test(s). I do not see any benefit from dimpling a piston for flow into the cylinder. The choke point is the valve and valve seat with flow being affected by the shape of the valve stem, the ceiling of the intake port and the overall cross section of the intake port. The goal being to avoid having a "thick" layer of laminar flow in the intake runner due to dead flow areas which causes puddling. Maybe it is more for keeping the piston cool more so than anything else.
From what I’ve seen it has to do with higher swirl as the dimples create air ball bearings for better mixture homogenization in a compression situation there in line with nozzle direction and the piston top is changed to get the fuel more in the center of the chamber
Imagine the piston going down pulling in the next charge. Maybe having the dimples being like a smooth transitioning cone that are changing the air pressure/angle being drawn over the surface area of all the dimples other than drawing down on a typically flat surface piston allowing a more turbulent suction of the charge.
Don't feel bad. None of us know enough about thermodynamics. Dimples make a lot of difference to a golf ball. This sounds like another great reason for a dyno test.
It breaks laminar airflow, reducing drag .. that's why swirl is observed being increased in a piston application. In a golfball that's how Range Is extended by drag reduction
In college, us PE majors learned about golf ball design as part of the Natl Golf Federation instructor cert our professor facilitated.
The dimples in golf balls create consistent turbulence as the air molecules pass by.
A smooth, non-dimpled golf ball creates inconsistent turbulence & the ball does not fly straight; tends to act like a knuckleball.
Dimples solved the problem, a creating straight flying golf balls.
I can recall seeing golf balls over the years w/ different size dimples, in specific patterns. Can't recall how many different types there were. Like all ball manufacturers, they claimed their balls flew further. Never tested.
I don't agree the dimpled golf ball is that different than the piston. At the basic level, they both are objects w/ air passing by. Different shapes, sure but the impact on the air is the issue, not comparing non-dimple features.
Dimples are turbulence creators, plain & simple.
Re: combustion chambers
The top of the piston IS the lower 'half' of the combustion chamber.l, so there will be an impact of dimpled pistons vs non.
The only thing I can see it doing is creating more turbulence than non-dimpled. How that impacts the engine can only be determined w/ rigorous testing; everything else is just lip flapping speculation.
It actually breaks laminar air flow from the localized swirl in the dimples.
basically it creates a lower coefficient of drag for the air going over the dimples by decoupling the laminar flow.
In a golf ball that allows it to fly further and in a piston It allows increased swirl in the combustion chamber for more complete combustion
Makes me think of somender-singh slot in the quench pad or the tilted dome on the piston to cause swirl
Used to be done in nascar in the early days and the practice was banned.. When a cylinder head was pulled and the top of the pistons inspected the “clean” or fuel washed areas were the areas dimpled. It was a Old school trick or mod, and only certain areas were done not the whole piston. The photos I seen were smaller dimples and only done in strategic areas(the clean fuel washed areas)
The heads were sometimes dimpled in the combustion chamber as well on the spark plug side by the intake valve. Apparently in Nascar it was worth something sense they banned it. Intake manifold floors and runners were other areas sometimes dimpled. If I remember right in the books I read it had something to do with the fuel that had got out of suspension not so much the barrier layer air flow line of thinking..
Does it means it works on gasoline engine ..dinples the piston?
@@budhihart8161NASCAR is gasoline engines
I just saw a Dave's auto video where they got a guy with a diesel talking about these.
I want to see exhaust gas analysis of what they are claiming. I guy could take a motor, dyno it, swap out the pistions- same deck height and see the results.
10 Db decrease in noise on their latest diesel engine build
I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about why golf balls have dimples. The dimples intentionally slow down air flow on the surface and delays the flow separation at the back of the ball. It actually increases the skin drag, but it's worth that penalty because a sphere is a terrible shape aerodynamically.
I can't think of any surface in an engine that would benefit from building a thicker boundary layer to prevent flow separation, with the possible exception of the short radius on an intake port.
Skeptical. As the piston draws down from TDC the piston top gets further from the combustion chamber and any swirl that happens is likely nearer the head than the piston top. Also they would have to figure out how to match the combustion chamber volume added by the dimples. Decrease the dish before you cut the dimples? Maybe it would disrupt the flame front after ignition causing more thorough combustion?
you need to think about what happens during the compression stroke and right before ignition then expansion
@@richardholdener1727 hello rick i think diesel enginne bring juste air nothing mix and same as GDI gaz engine and you never have enough of air fuel mixe for max performance
Just saw this dimpled piston on Daves auto care. Man claims lower emissions and better fuel economy by 25 percent and a much quieter engine. He had them in his Duramax and it was very quiet. He said no engine changes except the pistons.
25%?
@@richardholdener1727 I started studying this with the same video and I actually thought he said up to 20%. But yah something like that. I get 10mpg down hill so they'll pay for themselves at 15%. I do have an understanding of the physics and they should make substantial improvements, if the dimples are sized and placed correctly.
@@richardholdener1727 10 DB reduction in noise tested in the recent 6.7 Diesel test
I think the theory of why it would work in a modern diesel would be the decreased boundary layer or lamilar flow reduction. Modern diesel swirl the air inside the cylinder I forgot the numbers Gail Banks talks about it and one of his videos. As a cylinder comes up on the compression stroke it induces more swirl and the boundary layer between the piston and the air probably slows that swirl down before injection reducing that boundary layer increases swirl increases efficiency... Probably doesn't translate to a gas engine at all
Finally ! A righteous way to lower CR for the addition of a Supercharger instead of thick MLS head gaskets.
Its all down to boundary layer conditions, that thin layer on air by the surface dont like to move, the dimples help break that so air can move better and is not "stuck" by the boundary layer. Now how many dimples, how deep?, how far apart? How not to create a stress riser on the dimple? Thats the hard part. Also diesel dont have spark plugs to aid in controlling when it goes boom. So if you can get better mixing and all of the fuel iginites at the same time thats a game changer.
swirl=good
where is the boundary layer? the crown of the piston is being pushed into the air so does boundary layer really apply here? and on golf balls slight variation of dimple depth change the distance golf balls travel. so how does that apply in this situation?
Slight variations in dimple size and position make large differences in the results gained from the process. A significant amount of development cost is in researching the size and position of the dimples for each model or series of engines.
Yes, the boundary layer is still a factor in the case of the piston.
As no one so far has given you a proper answer, this is the idea and function behind it all.
The air/fuel and the air streams inside the combustion chambers are constantly moving from the point of opening intake valve until half way through the combustion process. This is why you see such differences in combustion burn patterns on the pistons between different engine designs. It can tell you quite a lot in how the atomisation of your engine works. Typically the clean areas is where it completes the burn and where you get this carbon pattern is where you have fuel that is less atomised falling out of suspension and wont burn completely.
As the chamber density rises as it starts to compress you are also more likely to have the fuel deatomise itself again which come to the reason why quench/squish band is needed to force everything towards the spark plug, but doesnt solve the problem completely. The dimpling done right with the perfect depth to diameter ratio helps actually preventing this from happening so the combustion efficiency increases as you get a more homogeneous air fuel mixture across the combustion chamber with less leans spots. Ultimately means less residual fuel causing carbon build up, lower risk of knock, more consistent combustion pressure instead of these erratic pressure spikes up and down from inconsistent combustion events. Everything will run cooler and you will need less ignition timing as it will burn faster with a proper homogeneous mix. However if done wrong they can start collecting residual fuel cause hot spots and knocks.
I personally do this to my own engines lately, used both CFD and the visual of burn pattern which together shows the direct relation of how the air/fuel mix movement affects the burn pattern. Then I matched the dimple pattern in relation to how the seperate air streams enters the combustion chambers and starts to swirl around. Only to avoiding unnecessary dimpling and using the minimal amount needed to get the job done. Also to avoid getting flow disturbance from dimples in the wrong places causing a turbulent wake where we dont want it(The flow behavior of dimples can be quite complex and we dont want them placed just randomly). It doesnt even add up to 0.5cc extra chamber volume in my engines.
The test engines does sound a bit problematic, especially if BSFC and such cannot be measured properly which is crucial in determining how well this works or not. Just power output alone doesnt really tell us a whole lot in the end..
Cheers from Sweden!
thnx
Do u have dyno graphs to prove it makes an improvement?
@@gfarnden56I’m going to call BS on this one. I’ve been involved in top level race engines for 20 years. If this noob from Sweden thinks he’s found something that no one in NASCAR, F1, LMP, Supercars, Prostock, Top Fuel have missed them he’s very underpaid building Saab engines.
I think there might be issues with the thermal boundary layer on the gas piston, the dimples may also pull fuel out of suspension & initiate detonation.
It actually creates localized lean spots inside the dimples from breaking the laminar airflow. Ceramic coating is important to prevent hotspots
I just heard of this piston (Diesel) ...yes please do a test .. I have a great deal of trust in your results. Thanks
The dimples will be air speed specific and size, then add the fuel particle size to the puzzle
Pretty sure Nascar guys tried it years ago
It's not just dimples, gapless 2nd ring, ceramic coated, I'm curious if they raised comp ratio, sure they did.
i would love to see the same engine be run. With only piston swaps. The pistons would have to have a similar shape. That way it would be more apples to apples comparison. I know this would have a lot more work. But it is pretty easy to make small changes to the 2 motors to cheat.
It is interesting. At first I can't see any benefits, only negatives. But it may (but just slightly) increase turbulence at the piston face and possibly act like softening the head. Just send it like a big bang test, Richard!😂
Great show as always! Love your channel.
I'd imagine that flow through the piston at overlap might increase with that dimpled piston. It's probably going to be 1 engine, and they should test 5 or more dimple designs.
@@cromBumny I don't know how it would increase flow. The piston being so far away from the valves that turbulence at the face of the piston won't have much effect on overall flow. Only improvement I foresee is improving mixing at the piston face due to increased turbulence (preventing wetting might be another benefit). The dimples have to be sized for the length scale of the turbulence. These look massive- may be correct, but I just don't know.
This isn't about thermal dynamics (at least I don't think so). I think this is about fluid dynamics and a reduction of air turbulence in the combustion chamber at the point of ignition and immediately afterward.
I think this is being utilized in the wrong area of the intake tract. My opinion it would work better from air cleaner to top of valve. It reduces the friction the air in counters on the way to the combustion chambers sort of like making the air speed up. Just my thoughts on it.
10/10 chance that if you bought into Uncle Tony's theory on flipping piston orientation you will also buy into golf ball dimples
I don’t think dimple pistons do much of anything. Dimple intake/exhaust ports do help reduce turbulence, and they do tend to help the air form a nice “jet stream” of sorts… but the piston’s movement is perpendicular to the airflow, it’s not slicing through the air, nor is the air moving around the piston. I feel like the dimples would have a negative effect with the af mixture. I guess they could be beneficial, but I feel like the higher specific weight of diesel would cause the dimples to collect fuel and/or unburnt carbons. The dimples ARE a weight reduction however. I feel like stock piston vs dimple piston, the dimple will out perform stock. A lighter than stock piston, that causes the same compression ratio, will probably match the performance increase of the dimple. The dimples on golf balls and inside int/exh ports cause a thin turbulent layer of air, while maintaining a LAMINAR flow over the thin turbulent area. So… seems like it could cause a negative effect on the af mixture. I think the pistons are lighter than stock and that’s your power/fuel mileage increase. A little less rotational mass, and maybe the piston rings have less drag on them. Way too many variables. They need to ask you what you need, and let you do the testing on your own. You know how to get accurate results. For a real test, they should just step back. Reduced emissions is probably due to the dimples catching unburnt carbons.
im gonna dimple everything!.. dimples make everything faster.. and flow better.. and burn better, and make the compression go up and down? Wow amazing things these dimples.
Dimples for the win!!!
Joe Mondello believed in turbulence inside the intake valve, so maybe this is possible. He developed the porting pattern from a toilet bowl.
I think that man could see airflow! He knew how to make power.
I think that would be a great idea for a test.
I saw and heard a Duramax with these pistons and the change was dramatic. Emissions down drastically. Torque up by 200 pounds. The engine was extremely quiet. They reported a 20% gain in fuel mileage.
no on adding 200 lb-ft by themselves, no on 20% improvement in mileage, no on emissions "drastically" reduced. I would believe in some changes on a diesel, just not at those levels
@@richardholdener1727 I saw it with my own eyes and I heard the difference. It dramatically improved efficiency. I was in aerospace and I know how the dimples work. Who are you shilling for? The fuel companies.
From what I understand about golf ball dimples is that the dimples create mini swirls inside of them speeding up the air around it. Would this create a faster air speed in a combustion chamber? Creating more turbulence? Is it truly worth it?
The dimples actually do the opposite, they slow the air really close to the ball and allow the flow to "roll" farther around the ball before it detaches, reducing the size of the low pressure area behind the ball.
@@BuffMyRadius now I am going to have read on this subject again.
Hmm. I wonder if the golf ball effect would cause small quench areas as the flame front travels across the piston? That could deter detonation.
Richard how about changing out the pistons and rods versus different engines.
might be a better choice-balance should be the same
I’m not sure if it works but in aerodynamics if you dimpled the body of a car it reduces surface area not sure how that helps combustion
If it worked dont you think 1 of the leading manufacturers would be producing them & at least 1 race team would be using them 🤔🤔🤔
My thoughts exactly. There are no manufactures using this at all.
@@gfarnden56actually there are a variation used by Volvo diesels for many years but it's a shaped combustion bowl that matches the spray pattern of the injector... Similar principal, different design
@@100pyatt i suspect that has more to do with combustion rather than airflow.
Could u send a link to a photo please
That piston has no quench ... That was how the mixture got mixed before swirl and such ....
Now it does increase the surface area. I didn’t think about that. On an NA, I wonder if it would increase the vacuum? More surface area for the piston to pull on. And if it does make a laminar flow above the turbulent layer, then hypothetically that really might make a big difference on the negative pressure side of life. With a positive pressure though… I just don’t know about it. You should ask Vizard his opinion. I’d be curious to know. And I’m hoping you end up being able to do about 50 test variations, and hopefully there is a cutaway involved. Lol.
no on 50 variations
@@richardholdener1727 ugh. Fine. Lol. Those will have to be very particular tests to knock out all the maybes.
Idk but will be interesting to find out
create a glass cylinder induce smoke and see what is happening or employ a aerodynamicist to build a flow model and look at the outcomes, and optimism, as dimple depth changes ball distance.
Kind of like when we dimpled the chambers back in the 70's.
back in the day bill elliott used those dimpled pistons. there was a article in a car magazine
,,, GM did it for quite awhile with synthetic saphire combustion chamber .
You have no idea how many green Camaros turned red back in the 80s.
I've thought of this year's ago I figured at first they would probably create more volume but then they would full of carbon and then be useless.
Can't wait for a A to B test on a gas engine and you'll be the right guy for that!
Dimpling the recessed part I believe would be useless because there's no counter surface to activate the air flow. A rough area makes a boundary layer that in a sense makes the area smaller because the air pressure is off of the surface not attached to the surface. So in theory this would make your combustion chamber act as if your compression ratio was higher than what it actually is, now whether that actually works is another debate.
had to double check if this was streamed on the first of April.
Speed of Air haven't heard about Entrained and Dissolved Air in Diesel.
Remove the Entrained and Dissolved Air in the fuel.....this lets the FUEL run CLEANER.....
Restoring a 20 % loss in LOST fuel economy.
do some tests with different patterns of dimples
9:00 it wont work on diesel engine.. in fact it would make it more inefficient, as dimples would trap burnable air
I think this would be best tested in a single cylinder engine.
Diesel, Direct Injection due turbulence to get Optimum burn of air due to compression 16 to 1 compression.
2300.00 dollars ish is the starting price for the piston and rings.
Do you have any updates on this?
I have not tested it
Im sure the dimples will help but it wont be much. Maybe 3 hp or so
Lol this is really interesting
This only works on cylinder head ports and the dim0les must be swirled
Only way to find out is a back to back dyno shoot out
How do you equalize the compression? I'm sure the dimples will lower compression
less than 1 cc
@@richardholdener1727 I was thinking maybe use a slightly thinner head gasket on the dimpled engine
Do the dimples increase the piston face surface area by any noticeable amount? Would that be the same as using a fatter piston?
Does it increase it in the correct way. If we consider these semi sphere like dimples only a tiny spot Is perpendicular to the piston travel. I see this as net negative. The area of the face of the piston has increased but now more of that area is off axis to piston displacement.
@@joshiek7839 that’s true. a lot of the area is generally downward. I wonder what it adds up to? Maybe upward dimples would be better. Better for compression i’d wager.
@@charlesboyd2876 outies would be terrible for squish. Innie dimples not much better. Squish is more important than it’s given credit for. Compression above a certain level is overated. Australia v8 Supercar engines of the previous era made 650hp at 7500rpm using 10:1 comp (rule) with 302ci motors. They mirrored the shape (not the volume) of the combustion chamber in the piston dish. That was al about squish or quench what ever term you prefer.
@@joshiek7839 Okay. All of that is probably true. I listened to the live stream and it was all about swirl and mixing. Dimples or domes WOULD change the compression and available surface area for the combustion to shove against….it seems to me anyway and it would be interesting to know how much. Maybe it is negligible.
@@charlesboyd2876 the purpose of quench is swirl and mixing. I can’t see how dimples would achieve that. Dimples on a golf ball are to trip the boundary layer from laminar flow to turbulent flow to help the air stay attached longer on the back side of the ball. The aerodynamics in a combustion chamber cylinder isn’t laminar.
Well ....its patennted !!! The Diesel world has flipped out and gone upside down Excited !!! The whole point in them offering it to you is They Already Know !!! No Company would shoot themselves in the foot with untested stupidity and offer somebody to embarass them . Technically this dimple size and pattern increases the surface area of the piston , thats why its coated . Pressre x area = lbs of force . Their patent is on the size and pattern that was Proven Effective .
Only if that added area is perpendicular to the vector of piston travel. Now only a tiny dot is aligned with the piston travel. Alas I would bet on lower power. Plenty of companies have sold snake oil and plenty have bought it up with little thought.
Saw tests that halved emissions, upped power by over 10% increased fuel mileage by almost 20% and doubled oil change intervals . Used computational fluid dynamics technology run by a guy thats also done nuclear research for the government
Emissions win more then anything, but it may save our industry as we know it.
DIMPLES!
Turbo the dimple
It's not worth the effort, Bloodviking
I can see dimp!led on turbo blades inlets inside exhaust still don't stop the problem of bad fuel egrs cats and all the other crap connected to the engine that's causes the real proplems
Why dimple? Why not make mini domes?
or spikes
@@richardholdener1727 would spikes create hot spots?
Loool they literally have a video explaining how it works, and truck drivers are apparently quite happy with them, reduces fuel consumption and engine wear, sharing your oppinion in something you haven't even bothered even watching a couple of videos on is stupid.
just like this comment-you obviously didn't watch the video
Flame travel will be uneven
Smells like marketing gimmick. Hard to belive something as simple as dimples being a novel revolution.
Dimples seem to be eye catching and good clickbait marketing.
Exact is Exact 🤦♂️
Do the test already. Would you please actually make some videos? These live streams are getting really lame.
YM
@@richardholdener1727 look, I like the channel but the ratio of actual content to livestream is getting worse every day.
This will never work,as a matter of fact it could make it worse
Me1
As is, it won't work
No
Don’t waste the dyno time on this nonsense. JMO
This is rubish
1973 1 ton Ford pickup truck, 1974 Lincoln 460 and c6 transmission, 670 Street avenger Holly + 100 micron stainless steel screen 18 + MPG!!! ( 1 inch spacer + high power coil was also used! Before my up grade I only got 12 MPG at Best!
a 460 with a C6 getting 18 mpg? seems very high