What do you think about Alex's theory, and what's your take on modern-day handlebar positions? 🤔 Let us know! 👇 🇮🇹 + don't forget to check out our webpage dedicated to the Giro! www.globalcyclingnetwork.com/racing/races/road/elite-men/giro-ditalia
Your onto to somehing there Alex. I might go as far that instead of spacers the angle of the stem will change. e.g. TT bars use to be as flat as possible . Now there upswept.. Positioning changed.. superman position to now ... Do they now look at nature how they cut through the air . I was shocked at the most aerodynamic bird and in water the most hydrodynamic efficient fish is .
Sensible theory, Alex. Frontal area is the easiest part of the drag equation. The coefficient is the hardest, with other factors coming into play. These factors include how the air actually flows over all the protuberances at varying angles of attack. For example, a setup that has low drag in a wind tunnel may not work as well in a cross wind. A good example of this is the disc wheel. Another example is aero arm rests which don’t add any frontal area to the system but do have an impact on flow.
I don't think your wrong Alex! And in addition to the longer head tubes, if you have a frame that can run 35mm tires it will automatically be higher at the front than a bike that can only handle 25mm tires. Ideally you would also lower the bb and run shorter cranks, so you also get lower at the back and in doing so you also open up the hip angle even further.
What you need to do is take pictures of old bikes with slammed stems and compare them. You can measure from the center of the hub to the top of the stem. There is software that can take accurate measurements from a photo and different angles.
My theory is they chop off the Steer tube so now the tops are about where the drops used to be and the reason there are no deep drop bars Also the radical drop is why so many ride with locked straight arms
It's amazing the positions that the body of a pro athlete can become accustomed too. I remember Chris Boardman getting low for the Lotus 108. His hands were actually taped to the bars (in the wind tunnel) at one stage, from memory!
This has always been my instinct from seeing what TT bikes are doing and that my first road bike was an endurance frame. So much easier to get aero if your bike comfortably allows you to do it.
Same.. recently tried to lower the stem all the way and found myself not getting as easy in aero position as i would with a higher stem. With the higher position you also can recover better, when you are in a draft to just get lower again later.
What you need to do is take pictures of old bikes with slammed stems and compare them. You can measure from the center of the hub to the top of the stem. There is software that can take accurate measurements from a photo and different angles.
I agree, Head tubes are getting longer. Look at MVDP. 150mm head tube. The longer length is replacing the spacers. Plus it seems that more geometry's are going to the allrounder, that's how you can use a road bike in and win a Gravel race and run bigger tires.
Headtubes aren't going longer as far as i can see. MVDP rides an L sized bike where many pro's would maybe have chosen an M. Thats why MVDP slams his stem.
Most amazing thing to me is that after all these years, bike optimal body position is still evolving. Wind tunnel testing has been available since the ‘90’s and as I recall, power meters were being utilized in pro cycling by the late 90s. If you have a power meter on an indoor velodrome you don’t need a wind tunnel. Why has it taken this long to erode some of the dogma of old? Why was this position not tried / discovered by 2000?
Cycling technology has rapidly evolved the antiquated industry since 2020, people still cry about disc brakes, wide tires, and gravel bikes. Innovation in cycling happens with the passing of the last generation of cyclists and their paradigms and only recently has change outpaced the last generation.
@@RylHango Right, cycling has a long sense of tradition and the "this is the only way to do things" outlook. Don't do as I do though, I first raced in 1982 and my current cyclocross bike is steel-framed with cantilever brakes.
There are not many people thinking out of the cycling traditions box. Pogacar, his team and also other young riders is constantly doing this now. So there are new discoveries made. Also when it comes to new talents, see Bora (REdbull) Handgrohe, who are looking for riders from other endurance sports, like biathlon or rowing. 10-15 years ago there was only the way of being a young sports cyclist all your life and then become pro one day maybe.
@@RylHango Yep, now we have discs and thru-axles that don't do much but add cost/complexity. Same for road tubeless - are there less flat tires in pro bike races now? Doesn't look like it but it DOES look like they come off the rim, spew the sealant out and riders slip/crash as a result. Lot's of CHANGE hyped/disguised as improvement by the marketing-mavens who get rich from it.
@colindewoolfe3647 Also interesting that it is his opponent LeMond who first adopted the aero bar position and they we're already positionned in modern way of today, with the bar forming a steeper angle. It's funny here how we come back to the original.
As someone with a +35" inseam off-the-shelf frames never have a tall enough headtube and I always need spacers. When I got my gravel bike I asked for the fork to be left the longest they could/would - run 50mm of spacers.
What you really need is a shallow drop handlebar. Rather than going way up with the headtube and spacers, and then dropping way down with the bars, you can drop less with the bars and not look like such a tall stack
@@galenkehler or have both, Ritchey Beacon. TBH I don't care what it looks like, does it fit is what matters. FWIW I ride MTB with pals and I can touch the floor on their bikes when they've the dropper up, they can barely touch the pedals on my bike with the dropper down 🙂
Yeah, the old 'way' was a spirit-level to make it absolutely flat, then (if you wanted) tilt the nose UP a degree or two... I tried that once but let's say, it's not particularly comparible with male anatomy. Guess the steroids back in the day had other advantages besides strength? Nose-down is something I always used in Mountain biking as it opens up the hip angle, making it earier to pivot about the saddle and get power through the stroke even when leaning/tilting the bike off-road. On-road it's allowed much better blood & air-flow and less cramp, not so much more power. The lungs/chest and pelvis aren't compressed when the hips are rotated slightly forward and the back is flatter (so less hunch/pain!) but it does put more weight over the arms at times - hence also using higher bar/riding on the hoods more.
@gcn - you are correct. Stack height has generally increased. it's one reason I didn't purchase a Cervélo Soloist (even though I wanted to love that bike) as the stack height was ridiculously low for a 51/52cm frame compared to others. I'd rather have a slight taller head tube with the option of less spacers. The aero hoods position works for me when I want to be aero but the taller stack is also more comfortable when riding in pace line or grand fondo.
Unbelievable. I settled into this position over the past couple years naturally. I found it to more comfortable and handling was better too. I didn’t know I was on the cutting edge of aerodynamics. Guess I can join the pro peloton now, lol.
I agree. I have also noticed the use of more spacers. The higher bars also make you more stable when you are on the drops in a steep descent. Would be interesting if the pros also follow the example of Ollie B. and run larger frames again.
There was a Russian rider on the first iteration or two of Tinkov that used a ton of spacer and had perfectly flat forearms while riding in the drops. The position looked great, but all those spacers looked very odd compared to everyone else. The dude was probably 20 years ahead of the rest of the peloton.
I noticed the hands wrapped around the hood elbows flat position a couple months ago in the pro peloton. I actually tried it yesterday for the first time and it felt pretty good. It was more comfortable than riding in the standard position on the hoods, and felt subjectively aero. I also definitely felt I could get more power out when compared to riding in the drops
@@BillyJoeBob-tv6co Yep I definitely prefer the drops for sprinting. Sprinting with my hands wrapped around the hoods like that would be terrifying. But for longer efforts it feels like a good combination of good power and good aero
I bought a Willier a few years back and found the riding position too aggressive, I found my hamstrings were tightening up! Changed the stem and bars and I'm much happier
Lance used a 58cm trek for all his 7 wins and he was 177cm. Horner used a h2 fit on his Madone for his vuelta win. Look at the stack reach data of the 2010 Tarmac vs 2024 Tarmac. What do you find?
Some brands have been clever in achieving increase stack height with adding spacers or head tube length. The drop BB heights and increase the height of of the fork arch/crown has (helping with tire clearance too). The keeps some of the aesthetics of no spacers or big head tubes, while achieving the benefits mentioned in arm positions and hip angle. Plus, it may fit more non-pros riders a bit better.
An interesting theory Alex. It begs the question then what, apart perhaps from sprinting are the drops useful for? Should we, who don't sprint,invert the bars and trim the hooks to give us additional higher up, possibly turned in, hand positions, a bit like wide tribars?
The drops are also quite useful for descending/general high-speed shenanigans - less chance of losing your grip, and better leverage on the brakes. That aero-hoods position is great but if you clatter a bump you didn't see in advance, it's very easy for your hand to get bounced off.
@@WillMcMahon-fu5yf Quite agree about the 'only just resting on the hoods' position, but if we invert the bars we have a positive place to grip. Like being on the drops but with the bars (our hands) not so low. A bit like the wings on the tri-bars. I just wonder why we carry on in the same old way when there appears to be a better one. A domestique pulling on the front is doing it for a long time so might benefit from a change. UCI not interfering that is.
I imagine the rider's flexibility also has some impact on the power output and some riders, considering they are from pro teams, are evaluated/tested on this and some require spacers because they can't get low enough with horizontal arms without losing power and negating the aero advantage. Flexibility can be trained as well so most of them still manage a relatively low position with few or no spacers.
Wasn't it the Cervelo S2 or S3 that made the change to a tall head tube instead of a shorter one with spacers? Not only is it more aerodynamic, but it looks way better without the spacers.
@@Chris-jc3lr. If the head tube is longer, having a “slammed stem” gives the term a very different meaning. For me (6’ 5”) having a slammed stem would put me in a VERY low position, since even a 63cm frame is at the low limit of a “proper” frame size for me…conversely, someone who is 4’ 11” and riding a slammed stem may have a very upright position since even the smallest stock frame may be a little big for them. The whole idea/term/definition of “slammed stem” doesn’t really mean diddly when trying to define proper setup when there are SO many variables to bike fit.
A bikefitter, who Is working with world tour riders and teams, wanted me, 1.75m and an inseam of 84cm, on a Tarmac SL7 in size 52. I tried it in a bike shop, but the seat post was too short (3cm). even this position felt ridiculous, like riding a kids bike and their where spacers under the stem. Iam going to buy now a 54, which Specialized recommended.
It makes perfect sense that when the hands and forearms are drafted by the head and shoulders it reduces overall drag, However in it's TT extreme it's really scary when you put your hands in front of your eyes! I think a wind tunnel that replicate what it's like, being in a pack of riders. What sticks out gets blasted hardest. Have you ever noticed how big riders tend to ride as low as possible? A great way to improve your position and get low on the bike for a big person is to go on training rides with somebody small and powerful!
This is a good development, not only for pros but also for normal people who want to ride pro(like) bikes, who cannot meet the sometimes insanely low stack height these bikes used to have (and many still have). Next great development would be shorter STI-levers so that the difference in reach length between being on the hoods and drops wouldn't be too big - like it is now, especially with the longer hydraulic levers.
What if you went for a reaally fat stack of spacers, so you can get in the lower-arms-perpendicular-to-the-wind position, whilst being in the drops.. surely that is peak aero 🤔 (not to mention super comfy on the hoods when loitering about in the peleton)
I am sure there are gains to be had from a higher position fore arms more in line with where tribars and downhill skiers are getting their hands and arms. Add narrow bars and turned in hoods and if the bars had the right shape they could contour the airflow and work it around and over the torso. Could be just a tad uncomfortable to hold that position.
I knew buying the Giant Contend was better than the TCR... Comfort is essential for a bike you will keep for the long term.. over 50,000kms on it now... Great bike!
Check out Matej Mohorič's set up he used to win Milan San Remo in 2022... That is a race with a very specific and hairy descent. No one else finds that approach practical for a daily driver race bike.
#ASKGcnTech Hi GCN Team. I am running Cadex rims 42 & 65mm for my front and rear. They are said to be optimised for 25mm width tires matched up to the 23mm outer width front rim and 26mm outer width rear rim. However, as the whole world seems to point to 28mm width to be more ideal over 25mm for say rough tarmac, should I go with 28mm or 25mm tires then?
Makes sense and very similar to swimming, you dont pull with a straight arm in free style Although you do get more power the effect of drag over your whole arm perpendicular to your body is very inefficient... optimal position is elbow bent at 45 when you pull with a high elbow this will greatly lower frontal drag.
Adding to Alex's theory: I have read that due to gravity, a persons heart rate is higher in a standing position compared to a sitting positions. Might there also be a relation between body position and heart rate on the bike? As in, the position you adopt on a road bike, whether it's a more upright position or a more aerodynamic one, may influence how much effort your cardiovascular system needs to exert?
@@gcn Absolutely! I've non-scientifically noticed that in the short term (a few seconds to a couple minutes) my heart rate usually drops a bit with constant power output when I get into a lower position - I've always wondered about it because it's non-intuitive.
Also what's the trend with the height of the bottom bracket? If it's lower to the ground, the rider is also going to be lower. Maybe not ideal for crit races, but for most other races that could have a significant impact
I think the length of the head tube on modern frames has increased. When I see the new bikes and compare them to my older, rim-brake frames from 15 years-ago, the head tubes on my old frames look tiny. Some of that is external vs. internal headsets, but much smaller that modern designs.
It's my impression that bars are lower now than they were historically. It looks like riders have roughly the same areo position as they did decades ago, except instead of being in the drops, they're now on the hoods. Once everyone was using threadless and long brifters, the "areo" position switched to the hoods, and the drops got much shallower. Arm position is now about the only difference between hoods and drops. Before the hoods were closer and higher, and drops were deeper, so that there was more difference between the two. Races got faster, and now riders can't really sit up enough to use the old "hoods" position. That's how it looks to me anyhow.
riders today do more specific strength training (core, back aso) than previous generations. That allows them to stay low (and therefore aero) for a long period even with higher hand position (=flat forearm, harder to endure but less frontal area and more aero)
I suspect the limitations of integrated cockpits pay a huge part. Previously pros would finesse with fit with negative rise stems but now this just isn’t possible.
I wonder how much the hood shape and position has changed over the past few years. Maybe it's that pros are still slamming their stems while also raising up the hoods a bit. A small increase in hood angle can have a big change in the body position raising the rider up.
The modern TT position looks reminicient of Lemonds earliest aero bar position based on tucked downhill skiers. The old road positiin was a higher stem. To go faster you bent your arms to 90 degrees. No wind tunnels needed, just comfort and the only option. 😬
Id say its all down to comfortable over long distances. If tt bikes saves watts with a raised closer position then great but sustainability is the key. Narrow bars with speed suits.
Back to the days of Eddy, bike frames just didn’t go lower, and they had little seatpost showing. Not that they wanted to ride on their hoods though. It was a bigger fit in reach and stack by today’s standards.
The lower you have your handlebars, the wider your handlebars would need to be to get the same riding position (flat back, etc.). Taking into consideration your hip flexibility, or lack of, most people can get lower with a slightly higher handlebar. I've been riding seriously for over 35 years and every couple of years, a new "improved" position comes out because some current famous pro has adopted that position. That's all well and good, but the bottom line is you have to find and use a position that works for you.
One can not compare a pro posture on the bars to an amateur one. Pros are shaped and trained to sustain a less comfortable position for few hours at least, while us amateurs are more focused on comfort than they are. Performance for professionals comes at a higher cost, and reward is different too. I am just happy with my factory-set raised handlebar for my amateur level of bike usage.
I have found years of riding bikes that having handlebars higher than been slammed helps massively for climbing hills . There bikes are one size to small for regular cyclists 30 + age anyway
The big difference is the frame size. Until not very long ago the standard among the pros was a way too small frame, super long and slammed stem and a super long seat post. Now frame sizes are "normal", meaning head tubes got much longer and the position much higher. The other thing is handlebar and hoods geometry. Now the hoods are much more forward relative to the handlebar and allow for very comfy aero position. So yes, there's clearly a trend towards longer head tubes and riding on the hoods, with MvdP being the prime example. Aerodynamically I think it's not only about the arms resistance on its own, but also the fact that keeping arms closer to the body makes for a more compact and more aerodynamic position, same as on the TT bike. Reminds ne of my racing days almost 20 years ago when I did a TT riding on the hoods (TT bikes were outlawed in junior categories) - my coach screamed at me and made me do a special training session to learn to keep the hands down. I tried to argue that the body position is basically the same so it doesn't make a difference (unless you tuck in very low which you can't hold for long) - now it seems i was wrong because it was basically more aerodynamic, not the same :)
I agree with Alex's theory. Same reason the hand position in modern TT bikes have moved up. Super low bars were always kind of a macho thing as much as anything, IMHO...
My endurance bike is getting faster every day... It had wider tires and rims before the pros did and a taller head tube so I can "slam" the stem yet not break my back to stay low-ish. 🙂
why would you need a 29" rear? 26" in the rear would be even better! 24" front and rear would be even more aero, but unfortunately the uci wouldn't allow it.
@@simonstucki oh yeah, the smaller the better right ? =P it would be an arrow cutting the wind but the smaller the wheel the harder is to pedal i think... need more torque strength i guess but you get really fast =P
It's been known for years that a tucked position on the hoods is more aero than being in the drops. Are pros positions more upright? Looking at these clips I don't think so. When any are going full gas they have a flat back, that hasn't changed since Oscar Egg. I don't see any pros going full gas with a torso at 10°
To all the people that have talked down to us for having spacers on an aero bike, this is why. Your arms are flatter if you're not forced to reach lower
You can see where things are going by looking at the track, that's where people are less stuck in the mud of tradition. There, the handlebars are high and narrow.
I think the issue with wind tunnel tests is that they don't take into account rider comfort over time. What's faster... a super low, super uncomfortable position or a moderately low and less fatiguing position over the course of an entire day in the real world? Hard to quantify.
Just watch the riders in the velodrome and you will see aerodynamics and efficiency, because 90% only ride at the top or in high aero positions in the TT.
It's easy to see. Knees and elbows. In the past elbows were below the bent knee. I am now seeing elbows level with the bent knee. Don't care a whit about the bike geometry, just check the elbows.
'The days of agressive, negatively angled stems are long gone', as a picture of Tim Wellens' ludicrously aggressive, negatively angled stem appears on screen
Pro bikes are made for the rider . Yes, the stem is slammed, but if the bike is made for the riders fit, then there is no need for spacers. Some teams have moulds made for riders.
I guess all those who were mocked for having a "chimney" are going to get the last laugh now as they will be able to raise their bar height without buying a new fork?
With all due respect, I think the aerodynamics argument is crap. If their body height/angle is the same, then the difference in drag between straighter or bent arms is going to be pretty minimal: the arms are just the leading edge ahead of the frontal area that the body presents, and the steeper angle on the upper arm has a higher coefficient of friction (but less frontal area) than a longer, gentler-angled arm. Seems more likely that riders have discovered that they can get just as low with higher bars by bending their elbows a bit, and the higher bars allow for a greater range of positions for climbing, sprinting, stretching, etc.
What do you think about Alex's theory, and what's your take on modern-day handlebar positions? 🤔 Let us know! 👇
🇮🇹 + don't forget to check out our webpage dedicated to the Giro! www.globalcyclingnetwork.com/racing/races/road/elite-men/giro-ditalia
Your onto to somehing there Alex.
I might go as far that instead of spacers the angle of the stem will change. e.g.
TT bars use to be as flat as possible . Now there upswept..
Positioning changed.. superman position to now ... Do they now look at nature how they cut through the air . I was shocked at the most aerodynamic bird and in water the most hydrodynamic efficient fish is .
Sensible theory, Alex.
Frontal area is the easiest part of the drag equation. The coefficient is the hardest, with other factors coming into play. These factors include how the air actually flows over all the protuberances at varying angles of attack.
For example, a setup that has low drag in a wind tunnel may not work as well in a cross wind. A good example of this is the disc wheel.
Another example is aero arm rests which don’t add any frontal area to the system but do have an impact on flow.
I don't think your wrong Alex! And in addition to the longer head tubes, if you have a frame that can run 35mm tires it will automatically be higher at the front than a bike that can only handle 25mm tires. Ideally you would also lower the bb and run shorter cranks, so you also get lower at the back and in doing so you also open up the hip angle even further.
It's the same thing Grant Peterson of Rivendell said many years ago, and it makes sense.
What you need to do is take pictures of old bikes with slammed stems and compare them. You can measure from the center of the hub to the top of the stem. There is software that can take accurate measurements from a photo and different angles.
Good to see the pro's have caught up with my bike position.
Right? Took them long enough….
You knew all along? 🤣
My theory is they chop off the Steer tube so now the tops are about where the drops used to be and the reason there are no deep drop bars
Also the radical drop is why so many ride with locked straight arms
my thoughts exactly!!
It's amazing the positions that the body of a pro athlete can become accustomed too. I remember Chris Boardman getting low for the Lotus 108. His hands were actually taped to the bars (in the wind tunnel) at one stage, from memory!
*Bridgewood slowly tapes his hands to his bars
This has always been my instinct from seeing what TT bikes are doing and that my first road bike was an endurance frame. So much easier to get aero if your bike comfortably allows you to do it.
For most of comfort is more important, we've covered this here 👉ruclips.net/video/zv8TgTbfUqs/видео.html
Same.. recently tried to lower the stem all the way and found myself not getting as easy in aero position as i would with a higher stem. With the higher position you also can recover better, when you are in a draft to just get lower again later.
What you need to do is take pictures of old bikes with slammed stems and compare them. You can measure from the center of the hub to the top of the stem. There is software that can take accurate measurements from a photo and different angles.
I agree, Head tubes are getting longer. Look at MVDP. 150mm head tube. The longer length is replacing the spacers. Plus it seems that more geometry's are going to the allrounder, that's how you can use a road bike in and win a Gravel race and run bigger tires.
Is this a bad thing? For us everyday riders that makes a lot of sense 🙌
Headtubes aren't going longer as far as i can see. MVDP rides an L sized bike where many pro's would maybe have chosen an M. Thats why MVDP slams his stem.
Most amazing thing to me is that after all these years, bike optimal body position is still evolving. Wind tunnel testing has been available since the ‘90’s and as I recall, power meters were being utilized in pro cycling by the late 90s. If you have a power meter on an indoor velodrome you don’t need a wind tunnel. Why has it taken this long to erode some of the dogma of old? Why was this position not tried / discovered by 2000?
Cycling technology has rapidly evolved the antiquated industry since 2020, people still cry about disc brakes, wide tires, and gravel bikes. Innovation in cycling happens with the passing of the last generation of cyclists and their paradigms and only recently has change outpaced the last generation.
@@RylHango Right, cycling has a long sense of tradition and the "this is the only way to do things" outlook. Don't do as I do though, I first raced in 1982 and my current cyclocross bike is steel-framed with cantilever brakes.
Whoever is fastest at the time they copy...
There are not many people thinking out of the cycling traditions box. Pogacar, his team and also other young riders is constantly doing this now. So there are new discoveries made. Also when it comes to new talents, see Bora (REdbull) Handgrohe, who are looking for riders from other endurance sports, like biathlon or rowing. 10-15 years ago there was only the way of being a young sports cyclist all your life and then become pro one day maybe.
@@RylHango Yep, now we have discs and thru-axles that don't do much but add cost/complexity. Same for road tubeless - are there less flat tires in pro bike races now? Doesn't look like it but it DOES look like they come off the rim, spew the sealant out and riders slip/crash as a result.
Lot's of CHANGE hyped/disguised as improvement by the marketing-mavens who get rich from it.
Love seeing Laurent Fignon on the thumbnail!
Me too! Fignon vs Lemond, TdF. Now there was a battle!
One of my favourite pics is Laurent Fignon, arms bent, hands in drops, head lower than his bum. What's old is becoming new again.
@colindewoolfe3647 Also interesting that it is his opponent LeMond who first adopted the aero bar position and they we're already positionned in modern way of today, with the bar forming a steeper angle. It's funny here how we come back to the original.
As someone with a +35" inseam off-the-shelf frames never have a tall enough headtube and I always need spacers.
When I got my gravel bike I asked for the fork to be left the longest they could/would - run 50mm of spacers.
What you really need is a shallow drop handlebar. Rather than going way up with the headtube and spacers, and then dropping way down with the bars, you can drop less with the bars and not look like such a tall stack
@@galenkehler or have both, Ritchey Beacon. TBH I don't care what it looks like, does it fit is what matters.
FWIW I ride MTB with pals and I can touch the floor on their bikes when they've the dropper up, they can barely touch the pedals on my bike with the dropper down 🙂
Check out the location of saddle. More forward and tilted down.
Yeah, the old 'way' was a spirit-level to make it absolutely flat, then (if you wanted) tilt the nose UP a degree or two... I tried that once but let's say, it's not particularly comparible with male anatomy. Guess the steroids back in the day had other advantages besides strength?
Nose-down is something I always used in Mountain biking as it opens up the hip angle, making it earier to pivot about the saddle and get power through the stroke even when leaning/tilting the bike off-road.
On-road it's allowed much better blood & air-flow and less cramp, not so much more power. The lungs/chest and pelvis aren't compressed when the hips are rotated slightly forward and the back is flatter (so less hunch/pain!) but it does put more weight over the arms at times - hence also using higher bar/riding on the hoods more.
@gcn - you are correct. Stack height has generally increased. it's one reason I didn't purchase a Cervélo Soloist (even though I wanted to love that bike) as the stack height was ridiculously low for a 51/52cm frame compared to others. I'd rather have a slight taller head tube with the option of less spacers. The aero hoods position works for me when I want to be aero but the taller stack is also more comfortable when riding in pace line or grand fondo.
Same for me. I was excited about the new Soloist when it came out, but then I saw the geometry chart…
How about going for an endurance bike? Conor loves his endurace 👉 ruclips.net/video/TWv1dhFQJ2g/видео.html
@@gcn I already had one and that has become my only road bike. My back couldn’t handle my Cervélo S3 anymore, so I sadly sold it
Unbelievable. I settled into this position over the past couple years naturally. I found it to more comfortable and handling was better too. I didn’t know I was on the cutting edge of aerodynamics. Guess I can join the pro peloton now, lol.
makes me think of graeme obree's crazy position that delivered results
A true pioneer 🙌
I agree. I have also noticed the use of more spacers. The higher bars also make you more stable when you are on the drops in a steep descent. Would be interesting if the pros also follow the example of Ollie B. and run larger frames again.
We imagine some of them are running larger frame sizes, long gone are the days of small frames and slammed stems 👀
I still use Fignon’s bar position when riding my steel bike, I find it very comfortable when riding uphill and coming out of the saddle.
There was a Russian rider on the first iteration or two of Tinkov that used a ton of spacer and had perfectly flat forearms while riding in the drops. The position looked great, but all those spacers looked very odd compared to everyone else. The dude was probably 20 years ahead of the rest of the peloton.
I noticed the hands wrapped around the hood elbows flat position a couple months ago in the pro peloton. I actually tried it yesterday for the first time and it felt pretty good. It was more comfortable than riding in the standard position on the hoods, and felt subjectively aero. I also definitely felt I could get more power out when compared to riding in the drops
the drops seem better for sprinting, it directs the power considerably better for short distances
@@BillyJoeBob-tv6co Yep I definitely prefer the drops for sprinting. Sprinting with my hands wrapped around the hoods like that would be terrifying. But for longer efforts it feels like a good combination of good power and good aero
@@BillyJoeBob-tv6coWell, sprinting on hood is dangerous anyway
Awesome! Sounds like you've found your position 🙌
I bought a Willier a few years back and found the riding position too aggressive, I found my hamstrings were tightening up!
Changed the stem and bars and I'm much happier
Maybe the higher bars just make the riders more comfortable, less tired, thus enabling them to go faster over longer distances :)
Very true! Although they are always looking for every aero advantage they can get.
Great video I’m currently working on refining my position. So lots of great thought here
Lance used a 58cm trek for all his 7 wins and he was 177cm.
Horner used a h2 fit on his Madone for his vuelta win.
Look at the stack reach data of the 2010 Tarmac vs 2024 Tarmac. What do you find?
interesting. didn't Armstrong have a bad (fused?) vertebra somewhere along his back?
Drugs. Lots of drugs.
@@petersouthernboy6327as everyone else. If drugs were all that was needed, then anyone could be a pro, but that’s not the case
AH, THAT was their secret! All this time I thought it was the dope! Silly me.
Some brands have been clever in achieving increase stack height with adding spacers or head tube length. The drop BB heights and increase the height of of the fork arch/crown has (helping with tire clearance too). The keeps some of the aesthetics of no spacers or big head tubes, while achieving the benefits mentioned in arm positions and hip angle. Plus, it may fit more non-pros riders a bit better.
An interesting theory Alex. It begs the question then what, apart perhaps from sprinting are the drops useful for? Should we, who don't sprint,invert the bars and trim the hooks to give us additional higher up, possibly turned in, hand positions, a bit like wide tribars?
The drops are also quite useful for descending/general high-speed shenanigans - less chance of losing your grip, and better leverage on the brakes. That aero-hoods position is great but if you clatter a bump you didn't see in advance, it's very easy for your hand to get bounced off.
@@WillMcMahon-fu5yf Quite agree about the 'only just resting on the hoods' position, but if we invert the bars we have a positive place to grip. Like being on the drops but with the bars (our hands) not so low. A bit like the wings on the tri-bars.
I just wonder why we carry on in the same old way when there appears to be a better one. A domestique pulling on the front is doing it for a long time so might benefit from a change. UCI not interfering that is.
I imagine the rider's flexibility also has some impact on the power output and some riders, considering they are from pro teams, are evaluated/tested on this and some require spacers because they can't get low enough with horizontal arms without losing power and negating the aero advantage. Flexibility can be trained as well so most of them still manage a relatively low position with few or no spacers.
That's a super important part of cycling. You have to be flexible to hold that low aero position and put out the power ⚡
As for the new TT position the 'mantis' position was used back at the turn of the millennium too.
Wasn't it the Cervelo S2 or S3 that made the change to a tall head tube instead of a shorter one with spacers? Not only is it more aerodynamic, but it looks way better without the spacers.
Honest answer... are looks more important? 👀
A slammed stem... Doesn't necessarily mean slammed. If tge head tube is longer then other frames. It will be the same.
@@Chris-jc3lr. If the head tube is longer, having a “slammed stem” gives the term a very different meaning. For me (6’ 5”) having a slammed stem would put me in a VERY low position, since even a 63cm frame is at the low limit of a “proper” frame size for me…conversely, someone who is 4’ 11” and riding a slammed stem may have a very upright position since even the smallest stock frame may be a little big for them. The whole idea/term/definition of “slammed stem” doesn’t really mean diddly when trying to define proper setup when there are SO many variables to bike fit.
Comfy and Aero, Perfect!😄
The dream 💨
A bikefitter, who Is working with world tour riders and teams, wanted me, 1.75m and an inseam of 84cm, on a Tarmac SL7 in size 52. I tried it in a bike shop, but the seat post was too short (3cm). even this position felt ridiculous, like riding a kids bike and their where spacers under the stem. Iam going to buy now a 54, which Specialized recommended.
54 is the way to go for your size. With an inseam of 84 you would probably even fit comfortably on a 56 with a bit shorter stem.
@@dakalla I used to ride 56 yes
It makes perfect sense that when the hands and forearms are drafted by the head and shoulders it reduces overall drag, However in it's TT extreme it's really scary when you put your hands in front of your eyes!
I think a wind tunnel that replicate what it's like, being in a pack of riders. What sticks out gets blasted hardest. Have you ever noticed how big riders tend to ride as low as possible? A great way to improve your position and get low on the bike for a big person is to go on training rides with somebody small and powerful!
This is a good development, not only for pros but also for normal people who want to ride pro(like) bikes, who cannot meet the sometimes insanely low stack height these bikes used to have (and many still have).
Next great development would be shorter STI-levers so that the difference in reach length between being on the hoods and drops wouldn't be too big - like it is now, especially with the longer hydraulic levers.
It would be interesting to find out how bike geometry has changed on pro bikes. Whether same sizes have gotten longer, taller etc.
Would it make sense for the domestiques to have a higher position to give more draft to the GC rider?
no.
Fair question. Depends on their relative sizes and positioning.
What if you went for a reaally fat stack of spacers, so you can get in the lower-arms-perpendicular-to-the-wind position, whilst being in the drops.. surely that is peak aero 🤔 (not to mention super comfy on the hoods when loitering about in the peleton)
Interesting! Sounds like we'll be heading to the wind tunnel 👀
@@gcn Please do, I am genuinly curious :)
I am sure there are gains to be had from a higher position fore arms more in line with where tribars and downhill skiers are getting their hands and arms. Add narrow bars and turned in hoods and if the bars had the right shape they could contour the airflow and work it around and over the torso. Could be just a tad uncomfortable to hold that position.
A Felt Gravel Bike w/ 35's for the win !!
I knew buying the Giant Contend was better than the TCR... Comfort is essential for a bike you will keep for the long term.. over 50,000kms on it now... Great bike!
I ride a Merida Reacto and they have a huge headtube. a slammed Merida is equivaveltn to probably a 0,5m-1cm raised other bike.
What about bike handling in corners and descents, surely a low center of gravity is helpful there
Check out Matej Mohorič's set up he used to win Milan San Remo in 2022... That is a race with a very specific and hairy descent. No one else finds that approach practical for a daily driver race bike.
Would you like to see more dropper posts in the pro peloton?
@@gcnyes!
#ASKGcnTech Hi GCN Team. I am running Cadex rims 42 & 65mm for my front and rear. They are said to be optimised for 25mm width tires matched up to the 23mm outer width front rim and 26mm outer width rear rim. However, as the whole world seems to point to 28mm width to be more ideal over 25mm for say rough tarmac, should I go with 28mm or 25mm tires then?
Graham Obrees A frame leaning forward position was best and still is.More wattage can be generated in his above position.
A classic 👌
Even in a crosswind....?
Makes sense and very similar to swimming, you dont pull with a straight arm in free style
Although you do get more power the effect of drag over your whole arm perpendicular to your body is very inefficient... optimal position is elbow bent at 45 when you pull with a high elbow this will greatly lower frontal drag.
How long pogacar .Crank length ?
The determination of from GCN: A definite.....maybe.
2:20 What are you on about, Pogačar doesn't have a single spacer on at all.
Adding to Alex's theory: I have read that due to gravity, a persons heart rate is higher in a standing position compared to a sitting positions. Might there also be a relation between body position and heart rate on the bike? As in, the position you adopt on a road bike, whether it's a more upright position or a more aerodynamic one, may influence how much effort your cardiovascular system needs to exert?
Oooo that's very interesting! Should we do a dive into this subject?
You should. Very interesting subject.
@@gcn Yes, please! I'm very curious.
@@gcn Absolutely! I've non-scientifically noticed that in the short term (a few seconds to a couple minutes) my heart rate usually drops a bit with constant power output when I get into a lower position - I've always wondered about it because it's non-intuitive.
Also what's the trend with the height of the bottom bracket? If it's lower to the ground, the rider is also going to be lower. Maybe not ideal for crit races, but for most other races that could have a significant impact
I think the length of the head tube on modern frames has increased. When I see the new bikes and compare them to my older, rim-brake frames from 15 years-ago, the head tubes on my old frames look tiny. Some of that is external vs. internal headsets, but much smaller that modern designs.
It's my impression that bars are lower now than they were historically. It looks like riders have roughly the same areo position as they did decades ago, except instead of being in the drops, they're now on the hoods. Once everyone was using threadless and long brifters, the "areo" position switched to the hoods, and the drops got much shallower. Arm position is now about the only difference between hoods and drops. Before the hoods were closer and higher, and drops were deeper, so that there was more difference between the two. Races got faster, and now riders can't really sit up enough to use the old "hoods" position. That's how it looks to me anyhow.
Also look at TP is using 165mm crankset.
riders today do more specific strength training (core, back aso) than previous generations. That allows them to stay low (and therefore aero) for a long period even with higher hand position (=flat forearm, harder to endure but less frontal area and more aero)
I suspect the limitations of integrated cockpits pay a huge part. Previously pros would finesse with fit with negative rise stems but now this just isn’t possible.
I wonder how much the hood shape and position has changed over the past few years. Maybe it's that pros are still slamming their stems while also raising up the hoods a bit. A small increase in hood angle can have a big change in the body position raising the rider up.
The modern TT position looks reminicient of Lemonds earliest aero bar position based on tucked downhill skiers. The old road positiin was a higher stem. To go faster you bent your arms to 90 degrees. No wind tunnels needed, just comfort and the only option. 😬
Id say its all down to comfortable over long distances. If tt bikes saves watts with a raised closer position then great but sustainability is the key. Narrow bars with speed suits.
Back to the days of Eddy, bike frames just didn’t go lower, and they had little seatpost showing. Not that they wanted to ride on their hoods though. It was a bigger fit in reach and stack by today’s standards.
The lower you have your handlebars, the wider your handlebars would need to be to get the same riding position (flat back, etc.). Taking into consideration your hip flexibility, or lack of, most people can get lower with a slightly higher handlebar.
I've been riding seriously for over 35 years and every couple of years, a new "improved" position comes out because some current famous pro has adopted that position. That's all well and good, but the bottom line is you have to find and use a position that works for you.
One can not compare a pro posture on the bars to an amateur one. Pros are shaped and trained to sustain a less comfortable position for few hours at least, while us amateurs are more focused on comfort than they are. Performance for professionals comes at a higher cost, and reward is different too. I am just happy with my factory-set raised handlebar for my amateur level of bike usage.
I have found years of riding bikes that having handlebars higher than been slammed helps massively for climbing hills . There bikes are one size to small for regular cyclists 30 + age anyway
I was just watching the 1979 Paris Roubaix. Maybe they didn't have the saying "Aero is everything." But they were sure getting low on the bike.
The big difference is the frame size. Until not very long ago the standard among the pros was a way too small frame, super long and slammed stem and a super long seat post. Now frame sizes are "normal", meaning head tubes got much longer and the position much higher.
The other thing is handlebar and hoods geometry. Now the hoods are much more forward relative to the handlebar and allow for very comfy aero position.
So yes, there's clearly a trend towards longer head tubes and riding on the hoods, with MvdP being the prime example. Aerodynamically I think it's not only about the arms resistance on its own, but also the fact that keeping arms closer to the body makes for a more compact and more aerodynamic position, same as on the TT bike.
Reminds ne of my racing days almost 20 years ago when I did a TT riding on the hoods (TT bikes were outlawed in junior categories) - my coach screamed at me and made me do a special training session to learn to keep the hands down. I tried to argue that the body position is basically the same so it doesn't make a difference (unless you tuck in very low which you can't hold for long) - now it seems i was wrong because it was basically more aerodynamic, not the same :)
I agree with Alex's theory. Same reason the hand position in modern TT bikes have moved up. Super low bars were always kind of a macho thing as much as anything, IMHO...
It's certainly a bragging right. You've got to find what works for you 🙌
Francesco Moser - Paris-Roubaix 1978.
My endurance bike is getting faster every day... It had wider tires and rims before the pros did and a taller head tube so I can "slam" the stem yet not break my back to stay low-ish. 🙂
Tuesday groupride: buckle up, I have a secret superpower now
I want Alex’s glasses!
yeah... i wanna see when they start using mixed wheels for pure aero... 26" front 29" rear
why would you need a 29" rear? 26" in the rear would be even better! 24" front and rear would be even more aero, but unfortunately the uci wouldn't allow it.
@@simonstucki oh yeah, the smaller the better right ? =P it would be an arrow cutting the wind but the smaller the wheel the harder is to pedal i think... need more torque strength i guess but you get really fast =P
Go and see AG2R Decathlon bikes. They have such a short stack, that almost every rider use some spacers.
It's been known for years that a tucked position on the hoods is more aero than being in the drops. Are pros positions more upright? Looking at these clips I don't think so. When any are going full gas they have a flat back, that hasn't changed since Oscar Egg. I don't see any pros going full gas with a torso at 10°
Never EVER use Monsieur Souplesse's image in a 'don't do this' comparison. Fignon is the very personification of perfect bike fit.
To all the people that have talked down to us for having spacers on an aero bike, this is why. Your arms are flatter if you're not forced to reach lower
GCN: ride your -low- high bar -light- -aero- mixt bike.
Good. My old bike saved me money and is back into fashion.
You can see where things are going by looking at the track, that's where people are less stuck in the mud of tradition. There, the handlebars are high and narrow.
If you are comfortable you can push harder…
I got back pain from watching this video, there is some serious flexibility training to be able to maintain these positions for any length of time
you'd think by now they'd have worked out if slamming is better or not, i mean wind tunnel testing
I think the issue with wind tunnel tests is that they don't take into account rider comfort over time. What's faster... a super low, super uncomfortable position or a moderately low and less fatiguing position over the course of an entire day in the real world? Hard to quantify.
And we have to look at horizontal line to! WIDER BAR will align your elbows! Wider bars actually FASTER!
hypothesis not theory. where is Dr Bridgewood when you need him
Now im interested, if gcn presenters were to form a team, what all will each of them specialize in 🤔
I can spend more time in the drops with say 30mm spacers, if i slam a stem the drops are out of reach
'Frame Geometry has evolved'
LOL.
They are maybe going for """bigger""" frames ?
For endurance rider higher stem for sprinters lower
Just watch the riders in the velodrome and you will see aerodynamics and efficiency, because 90% only ride at the top or in high aero positions in the TT.
What sunglasses are you wearing?
They look like the oakley latch
@@downbad9066 also perhaps SunGod Zephyrs
Now there’s a mad rush to find those old spacers that you threw out along with the reflectors that the bike came when it was new !!!
Hahahaha, don't forget the dork disc 🤣
@@gcn what ??? I’ve never taken it off !
It's easy to see. Knees and elbows. In the past elbows were below the bent knee. I am now seeing elbows level with the bent knee. Don't care a whit about the bike geometry, just check the elbows.
"my theory, by me, Alex Paton, is by me and is mine. Ahem!" Looking forward to the corollary by Dr. Time Trial himself.
that was a take-off of Anne Elk, brackets, miss, brackets, of Monty Python fame, for you younguns.
It’s so funny when people say [Pogacha] without the hard/rolling “R”, as that is a type of bread in Slovenia and Croatia 😅
'The days of agressive, negatively angled stems are long gone', as a picture of Tim Wellens' ludicrously aggressive, negatively angled stem appears on screen
Could the low position / elbow bending also due to smaller frame / reach instead of looking into stack
Pro bikes are made for the rider .
Yes, the stem is slammed, but if the bike is made for the riders fit, then there is no need for spacers.
Some teams have moulds made for riders.
So drop bars are soon to be consigned to history...
Interesting
Laurent!
I guess all those who were mocked for having a "chimney" are going to get the last laugh now as they will be able to raise their bar height without buying a new fork?
ciao Alessandro, the "g" in "Giro" is pronounced like the "g" in "George" or "ginger" 🍝
Best gcn presenter 🙌
The French fit has always been popular. It's not rocket science.
With all due respect, I think the aerodynamics argument is crap.
If their body height/angle is the same, then the difference in drag between straighter or bent arms is going to be pretty minimal: the arms are just the leading edge ahead of the frontal area that the body presents, and the steeper angle on the upper arm has a higher coefficient of friction (but less frontal area) than a longer, gentler-angled arm.
Seems more likely that riders have discovered that they can get just as low with higher bars by bending their elbows a bit, and the higher bars allow for a greater range of positions for climbing, sprinting, stretching, etc.