Here is Clinton's BJJ channel: ruclips.net/channel/UCAtguiw00iz9IirIJoEPMfg Here's the channel we found the video on: ruclips.net/video/MyexCRUPWds/видео.html
Just a quick question cause i noticed in the second tech he didn't really grab with the left hand and pushed more while the right hand reached behind the arm and his fingers sorta dig into the armpit sorta like a push and drag so im wondering if it would have been a better pivot compared to the one u showed where it was both on the bicep?
First I want to say I like the video and appreciate the thought you guys put into it. Looks like you had a lot of fun! Just wanted to give my two cents on the first technique, since it's actually similar to one that I've spent time working with. The master shown makes it a bit fancier than I'm used to, but it seems to me he was doing it more for show anyway. On general principle, most bagua techniques aren't set in stone, and often differ in execution based on the flow of the exchange. That said, the basic technique as I know it often ends up as more of a throw. Positioning, footwork, and momentum are key. So, attacker throws the punch. You could grab his arm/wrist/elbow, but at speed it would most likely be simply a deflection down and away. You're assisting his momentum forward as you redirect the attack. Simultaneously, your left foot would circle around behind his right foot as your body turns and your left arm is brought down in front of him. What ought to happen is that your deflection pulls him just slightly forward enough to make him feel overextended, at which point he instinctively tries to correct it by pulling backward. At that moment that he pulls back, all you really need to do is make a short jump step in towards him, assisting his backward momentum, and with your left foot effectively trapping/tripping him, he's very likely to fly backwards. Because you are circling around to his right, he should not actually be in a position to effectively bring his left arm to bear. Your own left arm isn't necessarily in great danger, simply because if it's happening too fast for you to grab him, it's too fast for him to grab you. Contrary to the master's demonstration, it is actually a very quick technique. I will add that a lot of bagua techniques seem very counter intuitive in execution, but with a lot of practice it becomes more natural. I'm sure the same goes for any other art. Sorry for the long response. If I can ever find a good demonstration of this (or somehow make my own), I'll send it your way. Keep up the good work!
Nah, they're making barbecued pork slices. They're analysing how the chef flips the ba gua so that it'll get the optimal amount of heat for each side. (Google ba gua + food if you're not sure what I'm talking about).
Your analyses weren't bad considering you only have the framework of modern martial arts, but if you guys could get someone on the team who does proper (effective) kung fu it'll help to cover the gaps in your break downs. Most of the bagua techniques you guys examined aren't being investigated properly- there's a lot of timing and 'live' factors involved which you guys overlooked, which are integral parts of the technique. I like that you guys are exploring other styles though, and you do it more respectfully than most other channels too!
@@FightCommentaryGrappling Sorry to hijack Mr. Trinh's post, but if you're looking for an kung-fu expert in LA who's also a BJJ black belt and can effectively explain everything to you in a context that makes sense to your martial vocabulary, I recommend Tim Cartmell at Ace Jiu-Jitsu. Also, try rolling with him. Rolling with Tim makes you realize what all those old Tai Chi classics were trying to communicate.
Your missing alot of baguas techniques mostly because this master is doing it messily. Tech 1 he drops the left elbow to the sternum. That occupies the opponents other hand. Tech 2 the right hand should push/hit the head before addressing the bicep which really should be the elbow.
Technique 1: Before the Bagua guy does the arm wrap, the transition is an elbow strike to the extended arm and a possible opening for a backfist to the face, before the strike to the face. So if he plays it right and acts before the other reacts, a whizzer may be hard to do. The arrangements of the drills are for drilling convenience and training. Of course the movement sequences would be different IRL with resistance - just like how boxing mitts combos and BJJ passing drills won't be done in order in a live sparring situation with a resisting partner. People won't learn the most basic of moves if when they're meeting full resistance even when trying to do Step 1. And depending on the enemy attack, intercepting actual punches this way may be hard, but even among fighters not all attacks are quick boxer-level punches. This is why two-on-one grips are taught in grappling and can be done by grapplers versus strikers in mixed fights even if hypothetically a meathead would say "that arm drag won't work on me my jab-straight-hook combos are too fast!"
I’ve done some bagua. Your first chin na didn’t work so well because you’re not using good footwork. Bagua’s throws are step based. You need to trap his legs as you tie up the arms and then use a hip throw kind of thing. Your second move sucked because you aren’t using good footwork. You need to attack the legs alongside the biceps. Your third move could be better if your opponent punched across themselves to set up the force vector instead of just standing there. Y’all are just hand fighting - get lower and step better.
The old guy appears to use Jiang style or at least the famous long xin form from Jiang style bagua. A little better footwork and wrestling and those moves would work great.
I totally agree. Normally i love their breakdowns but they didn't catch the essence of the moves at all in this video, especially the leg traps and body positioning.
The position for a takedown of the "master" is at the second 35. When the left arm is in front of the chest/face and the left leg is behind the opponents right leg a lever type take down.
Actually if you look carefully at the video, the "master" traps the opponent's right strike hand with his right, and the "master" throws his left hand over towards the opponent's face, in which case the opponent tries to block with his left hand, thus preventing his left hand from taking a strike at the "master". IMO this is too situational. There is no guarantee that the opponent will go for a block rather than a strike. Granted though, the "master" does have his left hand over near his own face in case a strike does come in. The "master" is also standing perpendicular to where the opponent is facing, so it is kind of difficult for the opponent to grab. The "master" also steps into his opponent, throwing the opponent's balance off, and making grabbing even more difficult.
I'm no expert by any means, but this is what I see as a taiji practitioner, trying to make the case for the Bagua practitioner: First: Looking at 1:44, you can see some pretty clear differences between his application and yours. In his, you can see he is still well-balanced and upright, while the opponent is off balance; the arm behind the opponent along with the leg behind the foot seem to work towards maintaining this position where apparently the opponent is unable to correct himself. On the other hand, you can see that in your posture, you're kind of straining to get into the position. Your partner is uncomfortable, but he is nonetheless in a much more stable position (hence he is able to counter easily). Further, not only is your arm and wrist twisting so much, but you're not pulling or pressing the opponent's arm down much at all; at 1:17, your upper arm is stationary while your body maneuvers around it, and at 3:40 your approach is drastically different despite more elbow bending. Here your arm is in a position to be pushed against your own body (because your chest is squeezed which compromises your shoulder joint, 1:53), and your wrist is weak. 6:04 similarly reflects a misunderstanding of what the Bagua practitioner is actually doing, because he isn't simply grabbing and yanking far off into the distance; he's grabbing, pressing downward, pulling behind, and moving inward. Crucial to the "internal" arts is the posture requirement where your head is up and your joints are "sung", but for your application your posture is hunched and not to mention your wrist appears to be straining to get the grab. Again, the Bagua man's arm forearm is level; he raises the whole thing and brings it down (keeping the shoulders at the side of his body and his elbows sung) to give his arm structural integrity and strength; his wrist is straight which serves to allow for better engagement of the forearm muscles. He isn't focusing solely using his hand to grab, and then once he has the grab he is also pressing/pulling the arm and moving himself inward to the opponent. His legs are also (but less clearly) at play; his right leg assists in the pull backward/rightward. Second: 7:00, he is not controlling the bicep, and is especially not grabbing anything so rigidly. He is grabbing the back of the shoulder (exerting backward pressure into the joint) and pushing down the opponent's upper arm with his own forearm. Note that as you "step in" your arm is collapsing while your partner still is plenty stable and ready to fight back, while the opponent at this point has already closed the gap between himself and the opponent (which functions as a "ram" to upset the opponent's balance). Further, the Bagua practitioner's left upper arm is rounded outwards, blocking a hook while grabbing just above the elbow. How do you get the leverage necessary to do the throw? You need to use your legs with your body by rotating your hips to give the pull strength, while the grip (being placed on the back of the arm, not the bicep) allows you to give a strong yank/push behind you, while your left arm (apparently) pushes the other side of their body in the same direction. It's not just yanking, it's also rotating, and this rotation absolutely requires lower-body integration, which in itself requires proper rotation so as to avoid damaging your knees or spine (rotation =/= twist). At 9:06 you got the idea of closing the distance, but you pull in the wrong direction. And then your partner, as much as I respect his skill, does a total mockery of what was demonstrated - just look at how the posture is totally different, and how your partner twists and turns his waist and spine instead of rotating along an axis. Totally different method with different results. Then in the final example, the Bagua practitoner's posture is more open, dynamic, and less stiff. This is made most clear in that his right arm fully extends (in quite a strong outward movement), and then his other arm intercepts the face and tears backward (almost like Walking Obliquely in Taiji's Yilu, it seems). Here again the structure is important, because he's not just utilizing his back shoulder muscles or upper arm muscles by themselves, but he's integrating them all together (and they are connected to his feet/legs). Perhaps you could say he using a more "compound" motion; an explosive full-body lift as opposed to a triceps extension. Generally: Having the head up and the joints loose creates an "expansiveness" in the body; this is hard to explain, but if your body were more "open" and "sunk", your bones and joints wouldn't be in such a weak position, and as a consequence they would exert more pressure on the opponent which serves to keep it unbalanced: in the context of moving inward, one could think of a bike tire being popped by excessive air pressure, as opposed to collapsing when pressure is too weak; good posture allows your body to upset your opponent's balance/strength, while bad posture simply causes you to put yourself in a bad position, as you both have described here as being the fault to the applications. I won't say the applications are infallible, but I will say that posture makes a difference, as does a proper understanding of the mechanics behind the movements. Good posture makes the movements strong and powerful, and not limited to one part of the body; in one movement we can see the bagua practitioner invade and capture while exerting force which demands speed and coordination (there's a reason why good BJJ practitioners can be so quick in their movements!). This is why the internal arts place so much emphasis on technique and form practice; it's not something you can replicate just by watching. It's also why I'm kind of disappointed by the lack of communication from both "sides" of the "debate"; we see people trying to interpret eastern arts from a distinctly western lens. Perhaps I haven't been paying much attention, but I have yet to see you make direct contact with many taiji or bagua practitioners, if any at all (just now I note you had a Zoom interview with a taiji practitioner). There's so much to be learned, and I think these videos are great, but there should be more contact! So many good points are made regarding practicality, yet we miss out on the nuances of these "internal arts", which are so quickly dismissed, which to me seems to be a result on a distinct difference in looking at the physical body.
A little wordy but in general I agree. This video judges several moves in the context of an instructing moment. No allowances for experience of practioners. No live baguazhang martial artist tried in real time.
Setting aside the obvious issues of actually pulling this off against someone who is really trying to hurt you, it just seems like so much work (in terms of the amount of movement required) for so little benefit. All of that to like throw a single strike in the first technique, or to basically shove a guy away in the second. Baguazhang was the style that led me to my current hypothesis that much of kung fu probably started out more as ritualistic dance and later incorporated warfare symbolism. Bagua's founder claimed that it largely originated from Taoist walking meditation practices, and the style appears to embody abstract esoteric concepts of Taoism symbolically. If he's right about his own style, then one should hardly be surprised that a dancing ritual intended to symbolize Taoist thought doesn't also happen to be great for fighting. This results in what I've come to call "xenobunkai," roughly translating (between two languages) as unknown applications from forms (or literally "stranger" applications). I see this very frequently in traditional martial arts, even less esoteric ones like karate, which have fairly old kata, the meaning of which has long been lost. Then modern practitioners, starting from the presumption that these ritualized dances have only literal martial applications, attempt to post-hoc rationalize functional techniques into them, often with bizarre and unrealistic results. In truth, parts of these forms, if not entire forms, were probably never intended to teach people how to fight. They may commemorate culturally important fights, either literally (attempting to replicate the fight through memorized dances) or figuratively (perhaps symbolizing a military battle, or the struggle against a harsh growing season), or they may yet be more abstract, symbolizing ancient religious or political concepts.
I think your thoughts on some old forms is correct. That they're for strength training, developing a good stance or just honoring a person or place. Have you watched any of jesse enkamp's videos he talks a lot about forms and old karate?
@@elenchus Very interesting assessment! You might be right! I never thought about it, but maybe many many people are creating Post Hoc xenobunkai of ritualistic dances that had ZERO combat purposes.
cool video, there's a whole thing in the internal arts about sensing and redirecting energy (which is somewhat useful in specific situations) but missing in your thoughts about the techniques of the blocks. It may make more sense about what the master is intending if you get that, but I doubt that is enough to change the outcomes you described. I am really enjoying these types of videos and the ones like the one on the Cambodian kickboxing.
I think in 1:48 you didn't take into account that the old guy slightly deflects the punch with his right hand. Then steps in deep with his left foot. He does NOT trap the hand at all. He pushes his left arm in from, say a 45 degree angle with the back of his hand facing the other guy's face. His body is also exerting force on the other guy as well putting him off balance.. That arm was in the guy's face serves as a guard. If that guy moved into him..he'd simply turn his arm and push against the guy's face or something. That arms stops him getting hit. Bagua isn't at all static. Then, his left arm pulls the other guy's arm DOWN ...BEFORE circling behind his back. So, his posture was ALREADY messed up even BEFORE he was thrown. Then he most likely pushes the small of the guy's back..whilst putting his palm under the guy's chin. Simultaneously he spirals his body to the right and down. It's that motion and the change in the other guy's body alignment that throws him. After the downward pull and the change in body alignment there is NO WAY you could either punch him OR turn into him to threaten him. No way. He knows what he's doing.
As with most of the internal martial arts of chinese origin the postures/application/technique shown is a principle only. It is the public transmission. A martial artist recieving that transmission does exactly what you guys did, breaks down the concept/principle and looks at all the possibilities to make ie work. The public does what they see, a martial artist grasps the priciple and sees the possibilities. Well done guys.
At 1:41 you can see the other guy put his hand on Bagua master's left elbow. Bagua master's out in that situation was to move the left hand behind the other guy's torso - if during this the other guy decided to do something else, Bagua master should disengage or flow into a different movement. So for the first one at least I wouldn't call it a technique, more like a demonstration of possibilities in the conversation
Look up some of Hai Yang's techniques. I think he's in Montreal. He's younger, faster and demonstrates with more fighting intent, speed and practicality than many of these other guys. Especially his Xingyi stuff. I'm not suggesting they will work against trained MMA or other fighters, only that I would rather see you guys debate his stuff over some guy in his 70s who's long been out of fighting shape (if he was ever in fighting shape). Who knows, maybe you can even get him to be a part of an interview.
@@TheBjjones I've never trained with him personally, but I enjoy his realistic speed approaches to training, and his very deep and knowledgeable insights into the history and principles of what he teaches. Why doesn't this channel spend more time investigating these types of teachers rather than the obvious old men or charlatans? China has already officially sent a decree to all Martial Artists to stop calling themselves "Masters" or glorifying their own Kung Fu for their own personal gain. Even they are acknowledging it now. I'm more interested in exchanges of knowledge from teachers like Hai Long and bringing what teachers like him have to pass on that could potentially be made effective for combat over time with realistic training and sparring applied. If it works it works, if it doesn't, learn why, adapt and move forward.
@@Whiskey_Tengu Let the fools who marginalize Kung Fu & claim it can't/doesn't work for combat/self-defense wallow in their ignorance. This way I can continue to utilize all the expert insight from legitimate Kung Fu "masters" like Hai Yang for my own benefit. 😀
I believe there are legit things to learn. But I do still believe the ultimate gauge for its efficacy is in applying them against other fighters of various disciplines competitively. It makes everything sharper and more refined. Its how they were originally refined back when those masters fought regularly before communist China outlawed it. None of those masters back then would have turned down the opportunity to learn the most effective fighting techniques of their day elsewhere. If you can't apply it, its not the art, its probably the fighter. That's my belief. How you train is how you fight. Go get yours, keep those skills sharpened!
Technique two doesn't look like he's controlling the bicep. It looks like it come under the elbow where a nerve sits. The same nerve where arm bars are applied. The pulling back is Kazushi(pulling someone of balance) around the neck. The camera angle makes it a little hard to see how the technique is performed. That's more my take on it.
From my understanding, I could be wrong, the armbar is supposed to break the arm at the elbow joint. It's not a a nerve attack. Let me know if I'm misreading what you were trying to write.
I don't think he's grabbing the biceps on the second technique it looks more like he's grabbing the tricep and trapping the arm and using his whole body to leverage the pull.
The technique looks very difficult to apply. It doesn't take into consideration that people generally retract their arm too quick to just grab and hold while you step in. In my Japanese jujitsu we had a similar technique to this, but as a way to stop the retraction we pull the arm if possible to straighten it out and with the other arm strike elbow/forearm to their elbow. You either get a straight arm lock or get enough time to get in to the technique shown in the video
I believe that something important missing is that the "master" makes a first reverse punch, intended to make the receiver react. Also, the stomp is intended to be similar like a sweep? Some kind of "ouchi gari" (read it in spanish, don't know how it's called in english, but its a basic judo throw). I believe that still its a fancy technique, but. Lot of chinese trapping techiques search for that kind of spiral trapping movement (I've seen a lot of them in wing chun for example).
Timing and positioning is key as we say in Ju-Jitsu its all about keys, just like a key may look the same the slightest defect means the door won't unlock so too with techniques and martial arts. Su Ha Ri when you're ready to see you will. I see a lot of negative comments to demonstrations or Kata forms etc by people who haven't practiced enough to understand. Beginner students ask exactly the type of questions you guys are asking which is fair and the response is always the same when you apply with speed and precision.
The partner in the Tai Chi/Bagua video is just helping the teacher demonstrate only. That's all there is to it.He's not resisting or attempting anything else,other than helping to demonstrate the techniques or style.The teacher may actually be just showing how he "flows" depending on various situations. So,of course,if he used a partner that would resist or change/defend/fight back,it would be a completely different story. This is very similar to a Nage/Uke relationship in Japanese martial arts. For you guys to try to show how the techniques would work or wouldn't work is kind of a little bit pointless to be honest,as you are out of context.No offence:)
The problem is teaching techniques that are not realistic. He can drill that as much as he wants but stepping in and applying that technique will never be quicker than a good jab
There is an easy counter to this, as you guys were showing during the exploration. I agree that this will not work in a real conflict. I like how you adapted the technique to be more effective, but ultimately the technique itself is no worth the risk.
It's interesting that that technique has worked, many, many times. Bagua was used by escorts and bodyguards. But here you are throwing your unmatched expertise around. It's crazy.
guys check out chinese shuai jiao, as far as i know, this line of bagua comes from Wang shu jin, via zhang zhao dong, and cheng ting hua was the teacher of zhang. cheng ting hua was a chinese wrestler, the art has alot of throwing, joint lock breaking and striking.
elenchus Yeah but you need grips for that and even then the other person can just pull guard. Also when someone goes for a single leg one person is already kinda on the ground lol
elenchus Maybe in wrestling and Judo, but in BJJ, closed guard sets up so many things that there are some people who never train takedowns and only train to pull guard
I'm the first to admit theory and applied knowledge are two different things. That being said the basis of baguazhang is constant movement and continual change. Fluid movement. Its known as a circular art. So my contention here is that this commentary is criticism on a snapshot or stationary moment in movement. I don't know of any instructor in any discipline who can explain things while in full speed motion. I believe what you see in this baguazhang master's video are possible techniques available within the art but not a total picture.
Jerry, I don't such 'internal' styles can be examined on a purely technical level. Much of what is happening is affecting each other's balance and flow, if done correctly, your opponent wouldn't be able to simply turn around and counter. I have personally felt what a real 'internal' master is able to do, in my case I couldn't even release my grip on him while he moved me around at will; whether these skills work well in a real fight I don't know, but the basis of these techniques are not what you can readily see in videos.
I'm just not sure how to test that. I'm sympathetic to the view that details can be so small and nuanced that they aren't easily picked up on a RUclips video--that much is plainly true. But short of a recognized internal master stepping to have his techniques tested in a trial by fire, this seems to be what we're left with. In the bigger picture, my view is that the techniques demoed in this video failed in a number of ways, aside from the issue that they could be easily countered, which seems to be the part you're disagreeing with specifically. For one, they seem to be very low percentage and hard to pull off against someone who is actively resisting. For another, they seem to be a lot of work for fairly small results. One technique, if successful, would get you a decent shot at the face, and the following would basically shove the opponent. If you had the speed and technical skill to pull either off, you could have done way more damage with basic boxing or Muay Thai attacks, or achieved a big takedown with wrestling or judo.
@@elenchus I can't comment on bagua techniques as I have never trained in bagua, but if I had to guess, the key probably lies in the footwork and angles that if executed as intended should put the opponent's structure in such a position that makes it very difficult to counter. I'm basing my comment on the fact that I have experienced what it feels like to be on the receiving end of being subtly controlled by a tai chi master; an observer would say its stupid of me not to just let go of/disengage from his arms but I simply could not as it felt like I would fall if I did. The example I'm speaking of is demonstrated in this video ruclips.net/video/RzgkIM_sGBc/видео.html (yes it looks fake I know, and I'm not going to try and convince anyone who hasn't experienced it for themsleves.) My point is, as u have pointed out, that it may not be as easily countered as it may seem, and that the guys at FCB are not even executing the techniques with the proper concept/knowledge/training to do so. 'Internal arts' is a can of worms I wouldn't approach unless I had some experience in it myself.
@@Zz7722zZ I know of many techniques like what you're talking about (the feeling of not being able to let go) as I learned them in aikido. Basically it's a matter of creating enough kuzushi (off-balancing) such that their stability is mostly reliant on hanging off of your wrist or gi or whatever. Even so, there are other limitations at work here. The problem with my aikido techniques isn't (as most commentators get incorrect) that they don't work, it's that they're nearly impossible to get to against a resisting opponent. My kote gaeshi will certainly hurt a grown man resisting with all his might, but how precisely I am to catch his punch out of thin air, then apply this incredibly delicate and nuanced technique while he's trying to hit me is quite another matter. Likewise, there are many obstacles faced in this technique aside from (or perhaps in addition to, depending on whether you're correct here) the ability of the opponent to defend against them.
@@elenchus I could argue that for internal arts its a bit more in-depth than those of aikido etc ( I have some judo training myself), predicated on the quality of 'relaxation' and training of the fascia, but that would be digressing. Aikido techniques do work, as pointed out by some learned individuals on the tube, the problem is getting into a position to apply it while in a fight. For example, aikido techniques almost never work when u try to initiate it by catching a punch, but would work much better when going into a grapple. The problem with a lot of traditional masters is that they have finely honed skill sets that work well in a controlled situation, but they have never really tried to apply them in a fully resisting opponent. As a result, a lot of demonstrations are impractical, even though the techniques themselves may be fine. As for the bagua technique, maybe an actual practitioner would be able to assess it better than I can.
Oh yeah for me (except Shuai jiao) bagua AND Tai-Chi are Best grappler in kungfu (another Style have grappling hehe i known) but bagua Is similar to aikido in the throws.
You mention strength and speed, and yeah bagua kinda depends on being really quick and ruthless with this stuff. In the example around 7:23 you need to attack the structure by pulling the arm towards the elbow, not just pulling on the bicep but turning their whole shoulder around the anchor point created with that downward force on the arm... I don't know if that makes sense but yeah this isn't the sort of technique that Jerry can just imitate without having practiced enough bagua to have the right kind of structure and fluidity.
Not mention internal arts use different body mechanics. Boxing and most external styles borrow power from the earth and channel it up through the body into hand or other foot. Connor McGregor and Mike Tyson are good examples of this. Where the internal stylist hugs the earth and use whole body force. Jet Li being a noted user of this technique. Particularly in his forms. The commentators seem unaware of this bit of science.
. Yeah I have to admit I really wasnt sure about this bagua guy. Please look at He Jinbao from yin style bagua (current 'head's of that lineage. His bagua is very nice. (Also hai yang xingyi or bagua on RUclips. He does rare substyles)
My main question I think would be what style of Bagua the guy does. It's one of the martial arts that varies widely depending on the lineage. Especially because he's from Taiwan, so I'd be pretty interested to know who taught him. On his channel it seems he teaches Taiji, Xingyi, and Bagua all together? Interesting. 2nd Technique seems a bit familiar in how he enters at least, but overall pretty hard to figure out.
Yeah, the master seems to teach a lot of styles. We actually put the video on Facebook, and the school he represents (or maybe an organization) said he's a student too. So maybe not as much as a Master as we thought. Refer here: facebook.com/fightcommentarybreakdowns/videos/1147160032330327/ Log in to see their comment (unless they deleted it)
@@FightCommentaryGrappling Interesting. So after a little digging based on that school it seems that their Bagua comes from Zhang Zhaodong's lineage, who was supposedly a student of Cheng Tinghua and a Chief of Police (Baojia Police?) in Tianjin. Cheng Tinghua was also involved in the Baojia police force in Beijing and the Wrestling Battalion. Their Xingyi lineage also seems to find its origins in the Baojia police force and imperial court guards too. If that's all the case I wonder how much of what was displayed here illustrates that.
I think the first one would be most affective following through by turning your body and pushing them forward maybe onto their knees/stomach... If that makes sense?
I see what you're saying, but I think the opponent would be able to recover and it would effectively just become a shove. You'd have to block both legs somehow (like with your hips in o goshi, or arms in a double leg) or to place all the weight on one leg and then remove it (like in o soto gari). If the opponent is able to keep at least one leg in play, it will be very hard to actually get them down. Maybe you could step in front of their legs in a tai otoshi-like way and trip them over. The most obvious path to me directly off of this, although still very low percentage, is kannuki hiki tate, or the bolt lock armbar. If they bend their arm to block the armbar you can rotate away from them and switch to ude garami (the Americana) to a takedown. But in either case, very low percentage. The real question is why put the hand in front of the opponent's arm at all. If you can get to that starting position, just throw ura nage. It's way more reliable than those last two (as a standing technique) and one of the most powerful throws. It also works fine no gi.
@@FightCommentary though that being said the best martial Arts for modern times are tiger and eagle and/or other clawing/pokey attacks. Cause DNA under the fingernails... Though DNA evidence isn't anywhere as reliable as the t.v. shows make it out
Would be better if you guys were actually doing the first technique correctly. The arm lacing behind is actually pulling on the lower back/hips as the upper hand applies force on the face or chest in the opposite direction. But hey, sure! It's a wizard. 😂
I see what you're saying. It's basically a really complicated and inefficient version of irimi nage. The nice thing about irimi nage though, at least in theory (since you can't really pull it off in real life for much the same reason you can't pull this bagua technique off) is the crook of your elbow is going to block a ton of that rotation that will come instinctively to follow the target. Normal people are just going to turn into you because they want to face their opponent (and hit them), and there's not really anything stopping them from that, at least early on.
@@elenchus I agree that most of these sorts of techniques that involve separated arms manipulating a person's torso would be unlikely to work in real life. I don't think it's a very good demo of the technique either as the guy doesn't even show the strike to the head which is supposed to happen simultaneously with the hand pressing/pulling on the lower back or hips. But most trained fighters tend to keep their upper body crouched forward and it would be very difficult to pull their hips way forward of their head like that. Possibly viable against some boxer type who leans way back for defense? But you'd have to be hella fast with the step in.
I like your version better. Any form should be open for your own interpretation. The creating individual is more important than the style. It’s necessary to keep things very simple and non flowery to be useful. Finally exercises that develop the ability to neutralise the opponents force and to be able to change techniques at contact is must against resistance.
The techniques aren't as important as the movements in bagua, pa kua. Anyone who studies bagua pakua knows 1000s of techniques and applications. However there are only simple circle walk, pi pu step and fish step and all the techniques for feet and hands fit into those three movements. So the movements are more important than the actual techniques. This idea is probably different from people who study techniques.
When someone is throwing crazy wide big punches like the second one you don't need to try and control any thing. If you step forward with one or two hard strait punches you've already one the fight. Or shit even a big push. Either one you'll knock him on his ass.
Yeah man.. Even master wong admitted most trapping & such is a "time waster".. I have seen simplyfied trapping with like one or two motions max work tho.. Punches in real chaotic fights are too fast & unpredictable for 3 or 4 step traps to work unless you're like the Flash from DC comics or some im quite certain..
I think you're misinterpreting the demonstration. The bagua guy "indicates" strikes that would happen in a situation that are then followed up with a throw (which he shows.) Obviously, it's much easier to throw someone after they've taken a big hit to the face. For example, he parries the incoming punch, and then at :35, he does a kind of backhand into the air. In the full execution of the technique, that would be a backhand to the face, followed up by the control and throw. You guys are talking about how easy it would be to stop the technique by rotating in-- but what's missing is the big backhand to the face first-- look again at the footage, he shows where the backhand is "in the air" because he's just showing the technique. Anyway, maybe it will work, maybe it won't. But you make it look stupider than it is.
@@FightCommentary email the subject line is Second move from Taiwanese Bagua master. Here is another link i found of someone else teaching the throw. ruclips.net/video/H9vkf3YKBBA/видео.html Im not a bagua practioner but I think the demonstrator isn't fully committed to a lot of these moves so you might not be getting the full technique just from my observation. Feel free to email me questions on the techniques of the other videos from my Sifu's channel, just dont post please I am a little shy about the criticism and trolling. I just wanted to share with people who are serious about the art and not just here to poke fun or talk shit. I was fairly new to learning when these video where shot so a lot of me getting manhandled willingly and doesn't show my full capabilities.
. We meet again :) (But to say something is not a martial art because it is based on a philosophy is kind of meaningless) there are many martial arts based of philosophical concepts)
@@Purwapada you can bring a pacifist philosophy to the group, because in a war, pacifism is not very effective. bringing respect, dignity and forming citizens to the group is just a way to create supporters who can contribute and assist in whatever is necessary in situations of conflict.
@@Purwapada the books are forms of conservation and or finding, and even deceit, those who seek combat do not want to hear about calm or mantra or about the universe, but rather learn to defend themselves, since it is his main motivation to practice this style .
interesting. in my bagua class we always train to take the center 1st. no need to do that complicated entanglement. easy t take the center just by pushing your arm up under his chin and turning or any thing else.
The thing with Kung fu I realised it’s never a start and stop system. One movement always leads to another and another until the opponent is down. So isolating techniques to analyse is a bit like studying a paintbrush to paint. Obviously the video is not going to cover the whole system I understand that. And I do appreciate that sometimes your videos actually point out fundamental flaws, so props! But the continuous movement is an important point when talking about TCMA.
Jerry I think you need to reexamine how the bagua guy was TIMING his motion, I noticed he subtly caught the other guy's body motion and added in force.
@@FightCommentary he timed the turning of his hips to the turning of the other guy's, the Shakira move you were talking about, that's the gem you could take away and make more efficient. That's what I noticed anywhoo.
In your enthusiasm for your preference of mma, you are not looking close enough to the conditions the old master creates...not the same as your demo. . Yes...older gets slower but smarter...your mind cluttered with what you want to see for now.
The first 6:30 minutes of the video is basically you guess not doing the technique, then fixing it by suggesting to do the same movements as the old guy did. BaGua is trippy (pun inteded) and probably the weirdest grapple fu system out there - but you didn't seem to get what the old guy was trying to illustrate. Get that hip in there, the thrower (e.g. old guy) should connect the groin do the victims glutes/hips. Knee to knee. Don't try to slip your arm under the opponents armpit. Try using your bodyweight to jerk the arm down. Put some horse-power and 挂 into it - imagine movies where people get executed by hangning; the kind of snappy body drop of an olympic weightlifter. Close the bridge by boxers head movement. Qin Na and kuzushi in one tempo, pivot and crash towards takedown in the final and second tempo. Open shut.
learning a technique by copy what it seems it looks like to you is creating a straw man argument. You missed many details. Example, at 0.35 he attacks with a palm to the face and same time his under-arm controles the opponents arm, the opponent blocks the palm to the face. You missed these details completely. These small but important details will make a technique practical or not. I still think the technique will not work, but the way you try to make that clear is not completely honest to the technique.
If you want to receive a right punch, you will likely have to step off (if you are left foot forward) to the left in order to receive the right punch with your right arm. You may succeed. However, most of the punches are too fast for you to even set up that bullshit. Flowery technique but quite inefficient and impractical.
Yeah, trying to block and receive jabs and crosses are very hard. Even in boxing, boxers train for months to be able to just slip and roll a punch. Now you want to catch a punch? Basically impossible in full contact situations.
Here is Clinton's BJJ channel: ruclips.net/channel/UCAtguiw00iz9IirIJoEPMfg
Here's the channel we found the video on: ruclips.net/video/MyexCRUPWds/видео.html
Just a quick question cause i noticed in the second tech he didn't really grab with the left hand and pushed more while the right hand reached behind the arm and his fingers sorta dig into the armpit sorta like a push and drag so im wondering if it would have been a better pivot compared to the one u showed where it was both on the bicep?
I think this was just an excuse to hug each other
Totally!
First I want to say I like the video and appreciate the thought you guys put into it. Looks like you had a lot of fun! Just wanted to give my two cents on the first technique, since it's actually similar to one that I've spent time working with. The master shown makes it a bit fancier than I'm used to, but it seems to me he was doing it more for show anyway. On general principle, most bagua techniques aren't set in stone, and often differ in execution based on the flow of the exchange. That said, the basic technique as I know it often ends up as more of a throw. Positioning, footwork, and momentum are key. So, attacker throws the punch. You could grab his arm/wrist/elbow, but at speed it would most likely be simply a deflection down and away. You're assisting his momentum forward as you redirect the attack. Simultaneously, your left foot would circle around behind his right foot as your body turns and your left arm is brought down in front of him. What ought to happen is that your deflection pulls him just slightly forward enough to make him feel overextended, at which point he instinctively tries to correct it by pulling backward. At that moment that he pulls back, all you really need to do is make a short jump step in towards him, assisting his backward momentum, and with your left foot effectively trapping/tripping him, he's very likely to fly backwards. Because you are circling around to his right, he should not actually be in a position to effectively bring his left arm to bear. Your own left arm isn't necessarily in great danger, simply because if it's happening too fast for you to grab him, it's too fast for him to grab you. Contrary to the master's demonstration, it is actually a very quick technique. I will add that a lot of bagua techniques seem very counter intuitive in execution, but with a lot of practice it becomes more natural. I'm sure the same goes for any other art. Sorry for the long response. If I can ever find a good demonstration of this (or somehow make my own), I'll send it your way. Keep up the good work!
Looking forward to it!
Well......like Leonardo da Vinci once said...."Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication."
Underrated comment! Also, we just created a channel dedicated to BJJ!
I thought it said " Baguette Master " I'm thinking " wow they are analysing sandwich making techniques now "
HAHAHA ;)
Nah, they're making barbecued pork slices. They're analysing how the chef flips the ba gua so that it'll get the optimal amount of heat for each side.
(Google ba gua + food if you're not sure what I'm talking about).
Your analyses weren't bad considering you only have the framework of modern martial arts, but if you guys could get someone on the team who does proper (effective) kung fu it'll help to cover the gaps in your break downs. Most of the bagua techniques you guys examined aren't being investigated properly- there's a lot of timing and 'live' factors involved which you guys overlooked, which are integral parts of the technique. I like that you guys are exploring other styles though, and you do it more respectfully than most other channels too!
That would be interesting! You have anyone in the LA area you could recommend to us?
@@FightCommentaryGrappling Sorry to hijack Mr. Trinh's post, but if you're looking for an kung-fu expert in LA who's also a BJJ black belt and can effectively explain everything to you in a context that makes sense to your martial vocabulary, I recommend Tim Cartmell at Ace Jiu-Jitsu. Also, try rolling with him. Rolling with Tim makes you realize what all those old Tai Chi classics were trying to communicate.
Your missing alot of baguas techniques mostly because this master is doing it messily. Tech 1 he drops the left elbow to the sternum. That occupies the opponents other hand.
Tech 2
the right hand should push/hit the head before addressing the bicep which really should be the elbow.
yes the second move actually a elbow hit...we can see in bagua master video the opponent block the master elbow
Technique 1: Before the Bagua guy does the arm wrap, the transition is an elbow strike to the extended arm and a possible opening for a backfist to the face, before the strike to the face. So if he plays it right and acts before the other reacts, a whizzer may be hard to do.
The arrangements of the drills are for drilling convenience and training. Of course the movement sequences would be different IRL with resistance - just like how boxing mitts combos and BJJ passing drills won't be done in order in a live sparring situation with a resisting partner. People won't learn the most basic of moves if when they're meeting full resistance even when trying to do Step 1.
And depending on the enemy attack, intercepting actual punches this way may be hard, but even among fighters not all attacks are quick boxer-level punches. This is why two-on-one grips are taught in grappling and can be done by grapplers versus strikers in mixed fights even if hypothetically a meathead would say "that arm drag won't work on me my jab-straight-hook combos are too fast!"
I’ve done some bagua. Your first chin na didn’t work so well because you’re not using good footwork. Bagua’s throws are step based. You need to trap his legs as you tie up the arms and then use a hip throw kind of thing. Your second move sucked because you aren’t using good footwork. You need to attack the legs alongside the biceps. Your third move could be better if your opponent punched across themselves to set up the force vector instead of just standing there. Y’all are just hand fighting - get lower and step better.
.
As someone who also does bagua. I'd say those 'techniques' were subpar to begin with.
The old guy appears to use Jiang style or at least the famous long xin form from Jiang style bagua. A little better footwork and wrestling and those moves would work great.
I totally agree. Normally i love their breakdowns but they didn't catch the essence of the moves at all in this video, especially the leg traps and body positioning.
@@ssbreon feel free to make a response! We'll feature it on our new channel dedicated to grappling!
The position for a takedown of the "master" is at the second 35. When the left arm is in front of the chest/face and the left leg is behind the opponents right leg a lever type take down.
Actually if you look carefully at the video, the "master" traps the opponent's right strike hand with his right, and the "master" throws his left hand over towards the opponent's face, in which case the opponent tries to block with his left hand, thus preventing his left hand from taking a strike at the "master". IMO this is too situational. There is no guarantee that the opponent will go for a block rather than a strike. Granted though, the "master" does have his left hand over near his own face in case a strike does come in.
The "master" is also standing perpendicular to where the opponent is facing, so it is kind of difficult for the opponent to grab. The "master" also steps into his opponent, throwing the opponent's balance off, and making grabbing even more difficult.
I'm no expert by any means, but this is what I see as a taiji practitioner, trying to make the case for the Bagua practitioner:
First: Looking at 1:44, you can see some pretty clear differences between his application and yours. In his, you can see he is still well-balanced and upright, while the opponent is off balance; the arm behind the opponent along with the leg behind the foot seem to work towards maintaining this position where apparently the opponent is unable to correct himself. On the other hand, you can see that in your posture, you're kind of straining to get into the position. Your partner is uncomfortable, but he is nonetheless in a much more stable position (hence he is able to counter easily). Further, not only is your arm and wrist twisting so much, but you're not pulling or pressing the opponent's arm down much at all; at 1:17, your upper arm is stationary while your body maneuvers around it, and at 3:40 your approach is drastically different despite more elbow bending. Here your arm is in a position to be pushed against your own body (because your chest is squeezed which compromises your shoulder joint, 1:53), and your wrist is weak. 6:04 similarly reflects a misunderstanding of what the Bagua practitioner is actually doing, because he isn't simply grabbing and yanking far off into the distance; he's grabbing, pressing downward, pulling behind, and moving inward. Crucial to the "internal" arts is the posture requirement where your head is up and your joints are "sung", but for your application your posture is hunched and not to mention your wrist appears to be straining to get the grab. Again, the Bagua man's arm forearm is level; he raises the whole thing and brings it down (keeping the shoulders at the side of his body and his elbows sung) to give his arm structural integrity and strength; his wrist is straight which serves to allow for better engagement of the forearm muscles. He isn't focusing solely using his hand to grab, and then once he has the grab he is also pressing/pulling the arm and moving himself inward to the opponent. His legs are also (but less clearly) at play; his right leg assists in the pull backward/rightward.
Second: 7:00, he is not controlling the bicep, and is especially not grabbing anything so rigidly. He is grabbing the back of the shoulder (exerting backward pressure into the joint) and pushing down the opponent's upper arm with his own forearm. Note that as you "step in" your arm is collapsing while your partner still is plenty stable and ready to fight back, while the opponent at this point has already closed the gap between himself and the opponent (which functions as a "ram" to upset the opponent's balance). Further, the Bagua practitioner's left upper arm is rounded outwards, blocking a hook while grabbing just above the elbow. How do you get the leverage necessary to do the throw? You need to use your legs with your body by rotating your hips to give the pull strength, while the grip (being placed on the back of the arm, not the bicep) allows you to give a strong yank/push behind you, while your left arm (apparently) pushes the other side of their body in the same direction. It's not just yanking, it's also rotating, and this rotation absolutely requires lower-body integration, which in itself requires proper rotation so as to avoid damaging your knees or spine (rotation =/= twist). At 9:06 you got the idea of closing the distance, but you pull in the wrong direction. And then your partner, as much as I respect his skill, does a total mockery of what was demonstrated - just look at how the posture is totally different, and how your partner twists and turns his waist and spine instead of rotating along an axis. Totally different method with different results.
Then in the final example, the Bagua practitoner's posture is more open, dynamic, and less stiff. This is made most clear in that his right arm fully extends (in quite a strong outward movement), and then his other arm intercepts the face and tears backward (almost like Walking Obliquely in Taiji's Yilu, it seems). Here again the structure is important, because he's not just utilizing his back shoulder muscles or upper arm muscles by themselves, but he's integrating them all together (and they are connected to his feet/legs). Perhaps you could say he using a more "compound" motion; an explosive full-body lift as opposed to a triceps extension.
Generally: Having the head up and the joints loose creates an "expansiveness" in the body; this is hard to explain, but if your body were more "open" and "sunk", your bones and joints wouldn't be in such a weak position, and as a consequence they would exert more pressure on the opponent which serves to keep it unbalanced: in the context of moving inward, one could think of a bike tire being popped by excessive air pressure, as opposed to collapsing when pressure is too weak; good posture allows your body to upset your opponent's balance/strength, while bad posture simply causes you to put yourself in a bad position, as you both have described here as being the fault to the applications. I won't say the applications are infallible, but I will say that posture makes a difference, as does a proper understanding of the mechanics behind the movements. Good posture makes the movements strong and powerful, and not limited to one part of the body; in one movement we can see the bagua practitioner invade and capture while exerting force which demands speed and coordination (there's a reason why good BJJ practitioners can be so quick in their movements!).
This is why the internal arts place so much emphasis on technique and form practice; it's not something you can replicate just by watching. It's also why I'm kind of disappointed by the lack of communication from both "sides" of the "debate"; we see people trying to interpret eastern arts from a distinctly western lens. Perhaps I haven't been paying much attention, but I have yet to see you make direct contact with many taiji or bagua practitioners, if any at all (just now I note you had a Zoom interview with a taiji practitioner). There's so much to be learned, and I think these videos are great, but there should be more contact! So many good points are made regarding practicality, yet we miss out on the nuances of these "internal arts", which are so quickly dismissed, which to me seems to be a result on a distinct difference in looking at the physical body.
A little wordy but in general I agree. This video judges several moves in the context of an instructing moment. No allowances for experience of practioners. No live baguazhang martial artist tried in real time.
Setting aside the obvious issues of actually pulling this off against someone who is really trying to hurt you, it just seems like so much work (in terms of the amount of movement required) for so little benefit. All of that to like throw a single strike in the first technique, or to basically shove a guy away in the second.
Baguazhang was the style that led me to my current hypothesis that much of kung fu probably started out more as ritualistic dance and later incorporated warfare symbolism. Bagua's founder claimed that it largely originated from Taoist walking meditation practices, and the style appears to embody abstract esoteric concepts of Taoism symbolically. If he's right about his own style, then one should hardly be surprised that a dancing ritual intended to symbolize Taoist thought doesn't also happen to be great for fighting.
This results in what I've come to call "xenobunkai," roughly translating (between two languages) as unknown applications from forms (or literally "stranger" applications). I see this very frequently in traditional martial arts, even less esoteric ones like karate, which have fairly old kata, the meaning of which has long been lost. Then modern practitioners, starting from the presumption that these ritualized dances have only literal martial applications, attempt to post-hoc rationalize functional techniques into them, often with bizarre and unrealistic results. In truth, parts of these forms, if not entire forms, were probably never intended to teach people how to fight. They may commemorate culturally important fights, either literally (attempting to replicate the fight through memorized dances) or figuratively (perhaps symbolizing a military battle, or the struggle against a harsh growing season), or they may yet be more abstract, symbolizing ancient religious or political concepts.
I think your thoughts on some old forms is correct. That they're for strength training, developing a good stance or just honoring a person or place. Have you watched any of jesse enkamp's videos he talks a lot about forms and old karate?
@@tonygreen3054 I have watched some of his videos and found him enjoyable, but not on this specific subject yet, unfortunately.
@@elenchus Very interesting assessment! You might be right! I never thought about it, but maybe many many people are creating Post Hoc xenobunkai of ritualistic dances that had ZERO combat purposes.
@@FightCommentary I really want the word xenobunkai to catch on now.
@@elenchus What does Bunkai mean?
cool video, there's a whole thing in the internal arts about sensing and redirecting energy (which is somewhat useful in specific situations) but missing in your thoughts about the techniques of the blocks. It may make more sense about what the master is intending if you get that, but I doubt that is enough to change the outcomes you described.
I am really enjoying these types of videos and the ones like the one on the Cambodian kickboxing.
@@kungpowchickenwing I think you mistook what I was saying.
I think in 1:48 you didn't take into account that the old guy slightly deflects the punch with his right hand. Then steps in deep with his left foot.
He does NOT trap the hand at all. He pushes his left arm in from, say a 45 degree angle with the back of his hand facing the other guy's face. His body is also exerting force on the other guy as well putting him off balance..
That arm was in the guy's face serves as a guard. If that guy moved into him..he'd simply turn his arm and push against the guy's face or something. That arms stops him getting hit. Bagua isn't at all static.
Then, his left arm pulls the other guy's arm DOWN ...BEFORE circling behind his back. So, his posture was ALREADY messed up even BEFORE he was thrown.
Then he most likely pushes the small of the guy's back..whilst putting his palm under the guy's chin. Simultaneously he spirals his body to the right and down. It's that motion and the change in the other guy's body alignment that throws him.
After the downward pull and the change in body alignment there is NO WAY you could either punch him OR turn into him to threaten him. No way.
He knows what he's doing.
As with most of the internal martial arts of chinese origin the postures/application/technique shown is a principle only. It is the public transmission. A martial artist recieving that transmission does exactly what you guys did, breaks down the concept/principle and looks at all the possibilities to make ie work. The public does what they see, a martial artist grasps the priciple and sees the possibilities.
Well done guys.
Thanks for watching!
At 1:41 you can see the other guy put his hand on Bagua master's left elbow. Bagua master's out in that situation was to move the left hand behind the other guy's torso - if during this the other guy decided to do something else, Bagua master should disengage or flow into a different movement. So for the first one at least I wouldn't call it a technique, more like a demonstration of possibilities in the conversation
4:20 the whole video turned Asian for a moment there.
There are a ton of great techniques that are super situational or just plain hard to pull off in real time
So much take down and moves can be done when that arm is trap
so the attacker just stands there while you do 3 movements? and you dislocate your shoulder? do they fight differently in Asia?
Look up some of Hai Yang's techniques. I think he's in Montreal. He's younger, faster and demonstrates with more fighting intent, speed and practicality than many of these other guys. Especially his Xingyi stuff.
I'm not suggesting they will work against trained MMA or other fighters, only that I would rather see you guys debate his stuff over some guy in his 70s who's long been out of fighting shape (if he was ever in fighting shape). Who knows, maybe you can even get him to be a part of an interview.
nova_prime
Master Hai Yang is the REAL DEAL.
@@TheBjjones I've never trained with him personally, but I enjoy his realistic speed approaches to training, and his very deep and knowledgeable insights into the history and principles of what he teaches.
Why doesn't this channel spend more time investigating these types of teachers rather than the obvious old men or charlatans?
China has already officially sent a decree to all Martial Artists to stop calling themselves "Masters" or glorifying their own Kung Fu for their own personal gain. Even they are acknowledging it now.
I'm more interested in exchanges of knowledge from teachers like Hai Long and bringing what teachers like him have to pass on that could potentially be made effective for combat over time with realistic training and sparring applied. If it works it works, if it doesn't, learn why, adapt and move forward.
@@Whiskey_Tengu
Let the fools who marginalize Kung Fu & claim it can't/doesn't work for combat/self-defense wallow in their ignorance. This way I can continue to utilize all the expert insight from legitimate Kung Fu "masters" like Hai Yang for my own benefit. 😀
I believe there are legit things to learn. But I do still believe the ultimate gauge for its efficacy is in applying them against other fighters of various disciplines competitively. It makes everything sharper and more refined. Its how they were originally refined back when those masters fought regularly before communist China outlawed it. None of those masters back then would have turned down the opportunity to learn the most effective fighting techniques of their day elsewhere.
If you can't apply it, its not the art, its probably the fighter. That's my belief. How you train is how you fight. Go get yours, keep those skills sharpened!
@@TheBjjones Yes, his videos are excellent. Very direct and practical.
Great video bro.
Hey man! How are you doing?
@@FightCommentary I'm doing great bro. How about you?
Technique two doesn't look like he's controlling the bicep. It looks like it come under the elbow where a nerve sits. The same nerve where arm bars are applied. The pulling back is Kazushi(pulling someone of balance) around the neck. The camera angle makes it a little hard to see how the technique is performed. That's more my take on it.
From my understanding, I could be wrong, the armbar is supposed to break the arm at the elbow joint. It's not a a nerve attack. Let me know if I'm misreading what you were trying to write.
I don't think he's grabbing the biceps on the second technique it looks more like he's grabbing the tricep and trapping the arm and using his whole body to leverage the pull.
The technique looks very difficult to apply. It doesn't take into consideration that people generally retract their arm too quick to just grab and hold while you step in. In my Japanese jujitsu we had a similar technique to this, but as a way to stop the retraction we pull the arm if possible to straighten it out and with the other arm strike elbow/forearm to their elbow. You either get a straight arm lock or get enough time to get in to the technique shown in the video
I believe that something important missing is that the "master" makes a first reverse punch, intended to make the receiver react. Also, the stomp is intended to be similar like a sweep? Some kind of "ouchi gari" (read it in spanish, don't know how it's called in english, but its a basic judo throw). I believe that still its a fancy technique, but. Lot of chinese trapping techiques search for that kind of spiral trapping movement (I've seen a lot of them in wing chun for example).
Timing and positioning is key as we say in Ju-Jitsu its all about keys, just like a key may look the same the slightest defect means the door won't unlock so too with techniques and martial arts. Su Ha Ri when you're ready to see you will. I see a lot of negative comments to demonstrations or Kata forms etc by people who haven't practiced enough to understand. Beginner students ask exactly the type of questions you guys are asking which is fair and the response is always the same when you apply with speed and precision.
The partner in the Tai Chi/Bagua video is just helping the teacher demonstrate only.
That's all there is to it.He's not resisting or attempting anything else,other than helping to demonstrate the techniques or style.The teacher may actually be just showing how he "flows" depending on various situations.
So,of course,if he used a partner that would resist or change/defend/fight back,it would be a completely different story.
This is very similar to a Nage/Uke relationship in Japanese martial arts.
For you guys to try to show how the techniques would work or wouldn't work is kind of a little bit pointless to be honest,as you are out of context.No offence:)
The problem is teaching techniques that are not realistic. He can drill that as much as he wants but stepping in and applying that technique will never be quicker than a good jab
It could work, as Jerry showed with added elements. For example something to slow down the person retracting their arm after punching
There is an easy counter to this, as you guys were showing during the exploration. I agree that this will not work in a real conflict. I like how you adapted the technique to be more effective, but ultimately the technique itself is no worth the risk.
Thanks for your commentary!
Fight Commentary Breakdowns you’re welcome; thank you for your channel. Your vids are the most useful on RUclips, imo.🙏
It's interesting that that technique has worked, many, many times. Bagua was used by escorts and bodyguards. But here you are throwing your unmatched expertise around. It's crazy.
guys check out chinese shuai jiao, as far as i know, this line of bagua comes from Wang shu jin, via zhang zhao dong, and cheng ting hua was the teacher of zhang. cheng ting hua was a chinese wrestler, the art has alot of throwing, joint lock breaking and striking.
On it!
The whizzer is more on the ground, at least in BJJ. Hard to pull off technical grappling in standup without a clinch
you see it in standup sometimes as a defense to a single leg, and sometimes it can set up sutemi in judo
elenchus Yeah but you need grips for that and even then the other person can just pull guard. Also when someone goes for a single leg one person is already kinda on the ground lol
@@ryanliu6694 you want your opponent to pull guard in wrestling or judo though. That would be very advantageous.
elenchus Maybe in wrestling and Judo, but in BJJ, closed guard sets up so many things that there are some people who never train takedowns and only train to pull guard
I'm the first to admit theory and applied knowledge are two different things. That being said the basis of baguazhang is constant movement and continual change. Fluid movement. Its known as a circular art. So my contention here is that this commentary is criticism on a snapshot or stationary moment in movement. I don't know of any instructor in any discipline who can explain things while in full speed motion. I believe what you see in this baguazhang master's video are possible techniques available within the art but not a total picture.
Jerry, I don't such 'internal' styles can be examined on a purely technical level. Much of what is happening is affecting each other's balance and flow, if done correctly, your opponent wouldn't be able to simply turn around and counter. I have personally felt what a real 'internal' master is able to do, in my case I couldn't even release my grip on him while he moved me around at will; whether these skills work well in a real fight I don't know, but the basis of these techniques are not what you can readily see in videos.
I'm just not sure how to test that. I'm sympathetic to the view that details can be so small and nuanced that they aren't easily picked up on a RUclips video--that much is plainly true. But short of a recognized internal master stepping to have his techniques tested in a trial by fire, this seems to be what we're left with.
In the bigger picture, my view is that the techniques demoed in this video failed in a number of ways, aside from the issue that they could be easily countered, which seems to be the part you're disagreeing with specifically. For one, they seem to be very low percentage and hard to pull off against someone who is actively resisting. For another, they seem to be a lot of work for fairly small results. One technique, if successful, would get you a decent shot at the face, and the following would basically shove the opponent. If you had the speed and technical skill to pull either off, you could have done way more damage with basic boxing or Muay Thai attacks, or achieved a big takedown with wrestling or judo.
@@elenchus I can't comment on bagua techniques as I have never trained in bagua, but if I had to guess, the key probably lies in the footwork and angles that if executed as intended should put the opponent's structure in such a position that makes it very difficult to counter.
I'm basing my comment on the fact that I have experienced what it feels like to be on the receiving end of being subtly controlled by a tai chi master; an observer would say its stupid of me not to just let go of/disengage from his arms but I simply could not as it felt like I would fall if I did. The example I'm speaking of is demonstrated in this video ruclips.net/video/RzgkIM_sGBc/видео.html (yes it looks fake I know, and I'm not going to try and convince anyone who hasn't experienced it for themsleves.)
My point is, as u have pointed out, that it may not be as easily countered as it may seem, and that the guys at FCB are not even executing the techniques with the proper concept/knowledge/training to do so. 'Internal arts' is a can of worms I wouldn't approach unless I had some experience in it myself.
@@Zz7722zZ I know of many techniques like what you're talking about (the feeling of not being able to let go) as I learned them in aikido. Basically it's a matter of creating enough kuzushi (off-balancing) such that their stability is mostly reliant on hanging off of your wrist or gi or whatever.
Even so, there are other limitations at work here. The problem with my aikido techniques isn't (as most commentators get incorrect) that they don't work, it's that they're nearly impossible to get to against a resisting opponent. My kote gaeshi will certainly hurt a grown man resisting with all his might, but how precisely I am to catch his punch out of thin air, then apply this incredibly delicate and nuanced technique while he's trying to hit me is quite another matter.
Likewise, there are many obstacles faced in this technique aside from (or perhaps in addition to, depending on whether you're correct here) the ability of the opponent to defend against them.
@@elenchus I could argue that for internal arts its a bit more in-depth than those of aikido etc ( I have some judo training myself), predicated on the quality of 'relaxation' and training of the fascia, but that would be digressing. Aikido techniques do work, as pointed out by some learned individuals on the tube, the problem is getting into a position to apply it while in a fight. For example, aikido techniques almost never work when u try to initiate it by catching a punch, but would work much better when going into a grapple.
The problem with a lot of traditional masters is that they have finely honed skill sets that work well in a controlled situation, but they have never really tried to apply them in a fully resisting opponent. As a result, a lot of demonstrations are impractical, even though the techniques themselves may be fine. As for the bagua technique, maybe an actual practitioner would be able to assess it better than I can.
.
Your a whack job
Oh yeah for me (except Shuai jiao) bagua AND Tai-Chi are Best grappler in kungfu (another Style have grappling hehe i known) but bagua Is similar to aikido in the throws.
I did mma for 1 year and under lock and over lock combo is really good for wrestling
You mention strength and speed, and yeah bagua kinda depends on being really quick and ruthless with this stuff. In the example around 7:23 you need to attack the structure by pulling the arm towards the elbow, not just pulling on the bicep but turning their whole shoulder around the anchor point created with that downward force on the arm... I don't know if that makes sense but yeah this isn't the sort of technique that Jerry can just imitate without having practiced enough bagua to have the right kind of structure and fluidity.
Bro! Long time no see. Glad you came back to comment!
Not mention internal arts use different body mechanics. Boxing and most external styles borrow power from the earth and channel it up through the body into hand or other foot. Connor McGregor and Mike Tyson are good examples of this. Where the internal stylist hugs the earth and use whole body force. Jet Li being a noted user of this technique. Particularly in his forms. The commentators seem unaware of this bit of science.
.
Yeah I have to admit I really wasnt sure about this bagua guy. Please look at He Jinbao from yin style bagua (current 'head's of that lineage. His bagua is very nice. (Also hai yang xingyi or bagua on RUclips. He does rare substyles)
Thanks! We will take a look!
My main question I think would be what style of Bagua the guy does. It's one of the martial arts that varies widely depending on the lineage. Especially because he's from Taiwan, so I'd be pretty interested to know who taught him. On his channel it seems he teaches Taiji, Xingyi, and Bagua all together? Interesting. 2nd Technique seems a bit familiar in how he enters at least, but overall pretty hard to figure out.
Yeah, the master seems to teach a lot of styles. We actually put the video on Facebook, and the school he represents (or maybe an organization) said he's a student too. So maybe not as much as a Master as we thought. Refer here: facebook.com/fightcommentarybreakdowns/videos/1147160032330327/ Log in to see their comment (unless they deleted it)
@@FightCommentaryGrappling Interesting. So after a little digging based on that school it seems that their Bagua comes from Zhang Zhaodong's lineage, who was supposedly a student of Cheng Tinghua and a Chief of Police (Baojia Police?) in Tianjin. Cheng Tinghua was also involved in the Baojia police force in Beijing and the Wrestling Battalion. Their Xingyi lineage also seems to find its origins in the Baojia police force and imperial court guards too. If that's all the case I wonder how much of what was displayed here illustrates that.
@@unmessable12 Very interesting!
deflect (or block) and then strike seems like the summary. kramaga uses this. mucher harder in real speed but is effective.
It would be a really cool video to look at Krav Maga tested!
I think the first one would be most affective following through by turning your body and pushing them forward maybe onto their knees/stomach... If that makes sense?
Yeah, that could make the motion have a little more leverage
I see what you're saying, but I think the opponent would be able to recover and it would effectively just become a shove. You'd have to block both legs somehow (like with your hips in o goshi, or arms in a double leg) or to place all the weight on one leg and then remove it (like in o soto gari). If the opponent is able to keep at least one leg in play, it will be very hard to actually get them down. Maybe you could step in front of their legs in a tai otoshi-like way and trip them over.
The most obvious path to me directly off of this, although still very low percentage, is kannuki hiki tate, or the bolt lock armbar. If they bend their arm to block the armbar you can rotate away from them and switch to ude garami (the Americana) to a takedown. But in either case, very low percentage.
The real question is why put the hand in front of the opponent's arm at all. If you can get to that starting position, just throw ura nage. It's way more reliable than those last two (as a standing technique) and one of the most powerful throws. It also works fine no gi.
@@FightCommentary though that being said the best martial Arts for modern times are tiger and eagle and/or other clawing/pokey attacks. Cause DNA under the fingernails... Though DNA evidence isn't anywhere as reliable as the t.v. shows make it out
Yo my Taiwanese brother!
Bro, we have a channel dedicated to BJJ now!
Would be better if you guys were actually doing the first technique correctly. The arm lacing behind is actually pulling on the lower back/hips as the upper hand applies force on the face or chest in the opposite direction. But hey, sure! It's a wizard. 😂
I see what you're saying. It's basically a really complicated and inefficient version of irimi nage. The nice thing about irimi nage though, at least in theory (since you can't really pull it off in real life for much the same reason you can't pull this bagua technique off) is the crook of your elbow is going to block a ton of that rotation that will come instinctively to follow the target. Normal people are just going to turn into you because they want to face their opponent (and hit them), and there's not really anything stopping them from that, at least early on.
@@elenchus I agree that most of these sorts of techniques that involve separated arms manipulating a person's torso would be unlikely to work in real life. I don't think it's a very good demo of the technique either as the guy doesn't even show the strike to the head which is supposed to happen simultaneously with the hand pressing/pulling on the lower back or hips. But most trained fighters tend to keep their upper body crouched forward and it would be very difficult to pull their hips way forward of their head like that. Possibly viable against some boxer type who leans way back for defense? But you'd have to be hella fast with the step in.
Technique 1 needs a leg trap along with the arm trap
I like your version better. Any form should be open for your own interpretation. The creating individual is more important than the style.
It’s necessary to keep things very simple and non flowery to be useful. Finally exercises that develop the ability to neutralise the opponents force and to be able to change techniques at contact is must against resistance.
The techniques aren't as important as the movements in bagua, pa kua. Anyone who studies bagua pakua knows 1000s of techniques and applications. However there are only simple circle walk, pi pu step and fish step and all the techniques for feet and hands fit into those three movements. So the movements are more important than the actual techniques. This idea is probably different from people who study techniques.
When someone is throwing crazy wide big punches like the second one you don't need to try and control any thing. If you step forward with one or two hard strait punches you've already one the fight. Or shit even a big push. Either one you'll knock him on his ass.
Some of it works.. In slowmotion!
Yep. Looks and feels like it.
Yeah man.. Even master wong admitted most trapping & such is a "time waster".. I have seen simplyfied trapping with like one or two motions max work tho.. Punches in real chaotic fights are too fast & unpredictable for 3 or 4 step traps to work unless you're like the Flash from DC comics or some im quite certain..
@@GuitarsRockForever I"m a wannabe Spiderman, but the reality is I'm probably more like the guy on the Helipad playing Gallaga ;)
I think you're misinterpreting the demonstration. The bagua guy "indicates" strikes that would happen in a situation that are then followed up with a throw (which he shows.) Obviously, it's much easier to throw someone after they've taken a big hit to the face.
For example, he parries the incoming punch, and then at :35, he does a kind of backhand into the air. In the full execution of the technique, that would be a backhand to the face, followed up by the control and throw. You guys are talking about how easy it would be to stop the technique by rotating in-- but what's missing is the big backhand to the face first-- look again at the footage, he shows where the backhand is "in the air" because he's just showing the technique. Anyway, maybe it will work, maybe it won't. But you make it look stupider than it is.
FYI the second move is a throw but he doesn't complete it properly and kind bails on it in the end. I sent you a video of how its done.
Email or Facebook?
@@FightCommentary email the subject line is Second move from Taiwanese Bagua master.
Here is another link i found of someone else teaching the throw. ruclips.net/video/H9vkf3YKBBA/видео.html
Im not a bagua practioner but I think the demonstrator isn't fully committed to a lot of these moves so you might not be getting the full technique just from my observation.
Feel free to email me questions on the techniques of the other videos from my Sifu's channel, just dont post please I am a little shy about the criticism and trolling. I just wanted to share with people who are serious about the art and not just here to poke fun or talk shit. I was fairly new to learning when these video where shot so a lot of me getting manhandled willingly and doesn't show my full capabilities.
@@LunaticReason btw, that channel is awesoem!
Yo I do Kung Fu. I think those techniques where indeed pretty wack lol
bagua, which bases its structure on the 8 trigrams of Taoism, so it is not a martial style, but it sells as if it were for combat.
.
We meet again :)
(But to say something is not a martial art because it is based on a philosophy is kind of meaningless) there are many martial arts based of philosophical concepts)
@@Purwapada you can bring a pacifist philosophy to the group, because in a war, pacifism is not very effective. bringing respect, dignity and forming citizens to the group is just a way to create supporters who can contribute and assist in whatever is necessary in situations of conflict.
.
@@canaldesugestoesa6651 the book of changes is a form of cleromancy
@@Purwapada the books are forms of conservation and or finding, and even deceit, those who seek combat do not want to hear about calm or mantra or about the universe, but rather learn to defend themselves, since it is his main motivation to practice this style .
.
@@canaldesugestoesa6651 The book of changes is a kind of cleromancy based of daosim. Baguazhang is based of this idea
On the next episode of "Bullshitzu". XD
interesting. in my bagua class we always train to take the center 1st. no need to do that complicated entanglement. easy t take the center just by pushing your arm up under his chin and turning or any thing else.
The thing with Kung fu I realised it’s never a start and stop system. One movement always leads to another and another until the opponent is down. So isolating techniques to analyse is a bit like studying a paintbrush to paint. Obviously the video is not going to cover the whole system I understand that. And I do appreciate that sometimes your videos actually point out fundamental flaws, so props! But the continuous movement is an important point when talking about TCMA.
COOL
Double bicep control is in Muay Thai and wrestling. You're doing it wrong
sounds like bagua is doing it wrong
Good video Jerry Read Your Dm From Me :)
Jerry I think you need to reexamine how the bagua guy was TIMING his motion, I noticed he subtly caught the other guy's body motion and added in force.
But that's because the Uke in the video was standing squared up. Who stands squared up when actually trying to fight? (Okay, Wing chun guys maybe)
@@FightCommentary he timed the turning of his hips to the turning of the other guy's, the Shakira move you were talking about, that's the gem you could take away and make more efficient. That's what I noticed anywhoo.
Do a commentary on mmashredded fight videos plz
that'd be interesting
Sure!!
And basically he isn’t using his footwork well or for momentum.
I escape all of his.wristlocks
Dam man I am a fan of your channel u speak the truth please invite me one day
Where you based?
@@FightCommentary I am from santa maria CA
@@FightCommentary I it around cal poly, I've train in boxing kenpo tkd, but mostly emphasis in kenpo and more into street fighting than ring fighting
@@FightCommentary santa maria CA
In your enthusiasm for your preference of mma, you are not looking close enough to the conditions the old master creates...not the same as your demo. . Yes...older gets slower but smarter...your mind cluttered with what you want to see for now.
Or you can just punch him in the face with your left hand
The first 6:30 minutes of the video is basically you guess not doing the technique, then fixing it by suggesting to do the same movements as the old guy did. BaGua is trippy (pun inteded) and probably the weirdest grapple fu system out there - but you didn't seem to get what the old guy was trying to illustrate.
Get that hip in there, the thrower (e.g. old guy) should connect the groin do the victims glutes/hips. Knee to knee. Don't try to slip your arm under the opponents armpit. Try using your bodyweight to jerk the arm down. Put some horse-power and 挂 into it - imagine movies where people get executed by hangning; the kind of snappy body drop of an olympic weightlifter.
Close the bridge by boxers head movement. Qin Na and kuzushi in one tempo, pivot and crash towards takedown in the final and second tempo. Open shut.
learning a technique by copy what it seems it looks like to you is creating a straw man argument. You missed many details. Example, at 0.35 he attacks with a palm to the face and same time his under-arm controles the opponents arm, the opponent blocks the palm to the face. You missed these details completely. These small but important details will make a technique practical or not. I still think the technique will not work, but the way you try to make that clear is not completely honest to the technique.
We cant use the word: "master" anymore, guys.
Its nice to examine techniques, but we all know that those are bullshit techniques, so why make an entire video about it? Otherwise love your channel.
The comment section thinks otherwise. Lots of people aren’t saying it’s bullshido.
If you want to receive a right punch, you will likely have to step off (if you are left foot forward) to the left in order to receive the right punch with your right arm. You may succeed. However, most of the punches are too fast for you to even set up that bullshit. Flowery technique but quite inefficient and impractical.
Yeah, trying to block and receive jabs and crosses are very hard. Even in boxing, boxers train for months to be able to just slip and roll a punch. Now you want to catch a punch? Basically impossible in full contact situations.