As nearly every trans advocate has ever claimed, if Naoto says she's a girl, she's a girl. Her motivations for wanting to be a man should also be examined. Her family is a long line of detectives, passed from father to son, ending with Naoto who has no brothers. The police force is also predominantly male, tied with the family pressure to hide her female traits. She's definitely feeling a trans dilemma even if she decides she's female in the end. As you said, Naoto being a pseudo love interest for Kanji interlinks both their stories of identity. The fact that Naoto presents as a man even after resolving her issues with being a woman kind of gives Kanji the best of both worlds: a woman who "is a man". He might see Naoto as a socially acceptable replacement, catering to his want for a male but having it in a female body, or she's a girl who doesn't stress the feminine that he's been suppressing for so long. Either way, it's more of a consolation prize than truly resolving Kanji's issues.
You’re literally saying what I’ve been muttering at the screen lol. I never thought about the Naoto being a “consolation prize” for Kanji though, mostly because I don’t really ship the two of them tbh.
There is minor npc near the library who is a lesbian, she explicitly says says she loves her female senpai who is a girl, and she even gets jealous when her crush gets a boyfriend. She is a very minor character who doesn’t have a name, you can find all the dialogue options with her no RUclips edit: ruclips.net/video/NX6DpRC9Nxw/видео.html all cutscenes
The shadows are a homunculi of both valid aspects of the self and the external world’s perceptions, so it’s a bit tricky to tell what’s what from time to time
I never understood why the whole kanji is queer argument is so controversial Cuz him being queer and bi wouldnt really detract his other problems Him being queer and liking hobbies we usually consider feminine doesn't make him any less of a man I dont understand why saying that his story is about him not wanting to be perceived as feminine cuz of his hobbies would make it less likely that he is queer And the ideia that his queerness also was affecting his insecurities would just add more to it
@@miigi-p4939 I agree. I’ve always seen Kanji’s story as being brilliant in the fact that it leaves enough room for any interpretation of his sexuality without changing the core message of his story. It makes his struggles with masculinity hit a lot harder when you realize that whatever sexuality his is doesn’t matter.
@@egg_l0rd13 If it doesn't matter, then sit your ass down while we re-colonize the fandom from you rainbow mafia perverts. Love and tickles, someone who actually plays video games
Honestly same. Being in the Bi Kanji camp, I find it funny how it equally upsets the "Kanji is straight" and "Kanji is gay" camps, yet it literally doesn't contradict the points either try to make
@@misspaige3623 After winning the Midnight Miracle Quiz game show the prize was a kiss from Teddie. So when the player wins Teddie chases Yu off screen to kiss him in bear form
It's interesting to me that the most plausible reason Yosuke's romance option was cut was due to focus testing. Since I'm pretty sure if you were to ask most people who like him as a character (me included) they will mention the homoeroticism in a positive light with most of the adaptations of the game apparently adding on to it.
I mean regarding Naoto... I think the worst part about the way the gender of Naoto is being handeled is more that narrative just switching around without actually holding space for the characters feelings much. Like Naoto was being he/him'ed the whole time during the game and it doesn't seem like it was a problem at all for the character. Then the shadow self say sth along the lines of "you won't ever be able to cross boundaries of sex" and then everybody on the crew just goes: "OHHHH! So Naoto is a girl!!" and just proceed to she/her Naoto for the rest of the story without ever asking ANY questions or consulting Naoto's feelings on the matter. On top of that I think the only time Naoto says sth it is along the lines of: "I hope you can still treat me like before" which I guess doesn't include the pronouns used or anything else about their gender role or presentation??? Also it may be a bit "mean" so please take this criticism with a grain of salt: I think you focused too much on the interpretation of others or on fandom discourse instead of making an analysis of the game instead. While I get your idea, I find that your video feel more like a compilation of online opinions with you looking at people argue about parts of the game and then being a "middle ground"? Honestly I just I could hear more of your analysis of the game! Your interpretation of the work was really nice! I wish they'd be more of it 👏🏾
Thanks for the feedback, and the lack of regard for Naoto's feelings is really worth considering! And don't worry it isn't mean at all! I do enjoy looking and analysing other opinions but usually try to restrain it a bit more, but with Naoto I placed a really heavy emphasis on the 'discourse' since it's so complex, and by examining it you can see all the different ways people choose to interpret (or shut down interpretations) of the character. Even so, I get what you mean and maybe I could've given some more of my own opinions in between. When I've finished all 4 parts of this series I'm going to upload them all in a mega-video and spend some time at the end going over feedback and bits I missed pointed out by comments, so I'll definitely try to give some more conclusive opinions on Naoto there! :)
while the whole thing about Naoto feeling as though she needs to be more masculine to fit into a male-dominated work environment probably does have a lot going for it, it seems like people - and, perhaps, the game - forget that she is a fifteen year old girl trying to play detective and not an adult woman who has faced corporate misogyny her whole life
@regalseagull nope, the protag, yosuke, chie, and yukiko are all second years in high school, placing them at 16 or 17 at the oldest. kanji, rise, and naoto are all first years, meaning they're all 15 or 16 at the absolute oldest. either way, pretty much every playable character in any persona game is a kid. p4 is an odd one, tho, because there are no playable 3rd year students, unlike in p3 and p5, but even those 3rd years would be 17 or 18 at most - which are still kids, really. Maybe kanji got held back a year or so, who knows
In fairness, she is 1) currently actively working as a detective, so she has likely at least been exposed to the ideas of misogyny from her co-workers, alongside the ideas in media (a big theme of persona 4 is people being misled by the media, after all) 2) Just because someone hasn’t EXPERIENCED workplace misogyny for a long period of time doesn’t mean it can’t affect them. Naoto has grown up with her entire image of success associated with the idea of being male. You can’t just say that wouldn’t affect her because she hasn’t “truly experienced misogyny” by some arbitrary standard. Being a child shouldn’t be an excuse for people to invalidate your experiences. Not saying that choosing to interpret Naoto as trans is wrong, but I am saying that I don’t agree with your assessment that what the actual text says Naoto’s issue is is illogical.
@@spookyscary6400 there is a gag in golden where Kanji isn't old enough to ride a bike though Naoto and Rise seem to be able to have one, most of p4 it seems Naoto was 16 even before you even see her during the 2nd dungeon arc with her birthday at April 27th
@@egg_l0rd13 i mean, that isnt quite what i said, i said that the corporate misogyny aspect probably has a lot going for it. the text is just insane for asserting that a 15 year old kid, regardless of gender, can be actively working as a detective on a police force - that's the type of thing you need actual qualifications for, or at least, to have actually completed your education. The pigs are kinda justified for dismissing that upstart 15 year old that thinks they know better than anyone else - but they would probably use her gender to discredit her even further. Girl or not, trans or cis, there is just no believable way that a teenage kid could be an established detective working in a police force, so, the narrative kind of falls apart. In an alternate universe, where p4 was written well, naoto could have been a 3rd year student doing some kind of work experience placement within the police department and being subjected to workplace sexism at the beginning of her career which could trigger those insecurities that her dream job may be out of reach solely because of her assigned gender at birth which gives rise to her shadow
I always feel like when it comes to discussing queerness in persona 4 people always assume things from a western perspective which definitely skews things, I think both LadyVirgilia and Hiding In Private has made great analyses of both Kanji and Naoto that actually delves more into a Japanese context and a lot of the subtext that westerners usually miss out on (Kanji has queer-coding, it's just Japanaese queer-coding that's not obvious to most people in the English speaking fandom). Also important in Naoto's case is the fact that a lot of the trans imagery isn't intentional but because it's still there (her whole ass dungeon), it is fairly up for interpretation. It really is just people who refuse to understand nuance which I guess is typical of fandom communities in general.
Holy smokes, thank you for saying this! I’ve been looking for this comment lmao. I love both of those RUclipsrs and I stand firmly on the side that a lot of the fandom does refuse to look into how Japanese culture influences how these characters are written. This is why I don’t interpret Naoto as trans myself, because I personally relate more to the context of her intended story and her journey of learning to accept her gender regardless of what society thinks she should be. I’ve always seen the gendered issues in this game as more of a discussion of gender roles rather than queerness primarily. Regardless, choosing to interpret these characters as queer is not wrong in and of itself, I just believe that trying to force your ideas on people who are actually trying to interpret the text from its cultural perspective is wrong.
@@egg_l0rd13 maybe I'm reading into it too much but that last line "I just believe that trying to force your ideas on people who are actually trying to interpret the text from its cultural perspective is wrong." rubs me a little wrong when queerness is in the original Japanese text (Kanji and Yosuke) but if you're talking about Naoto specifically then I can understand! (I might've put those 'people who are trying' in the wrong box so to speak, the weirdo "anti-woke" orientalist kind
Thanks for the extra sources, and I agree that I definitely could've focused more on different cultural insights! Once I've finished this series I'm going to upload them together as one video and use that as an opportunity to mention anything I might have missed at the end, so I'll definitely look into this! :)
@@feedthedevilscats9027 I understand, and I did mean Naoto specifically, sorry for not making that clear. I personally believe that the original text leaves Kanji rather ambiguous, though Japanese symbolism (such as the bathhouse theme of his dungeon) leans a bit toward the queer side of things. And Yosuke… I mean, he’s the embodiment of the “closeted gay person is homophobic” trope. Regardless I do think you picked up well on the main point of my comment, and that was what I meant when I said “forcing” people to interpret characters a certain way. I didn’t mean it in an anti-woke way, not everyone who reads Naoto as trans is a jerk who thinks their opinion is the only correct one, that would be silly. What I mean is that I think those who fervently believe that not interpreting Naoto as trans is in some way hateful or exclusionary are ironically excluding those who relate to or directly share Naoto’s experience in a way that is unrelated to being trans. In a way that is female or even non-female. Heck, I’m a cis man and I heavily relate to Naoto’s struggles because I don’t necessarily identify with all the expectations that come with my gender, just like her. I mean, Naoto’s experience isn’t even exclusive to Persona 4, Sae Nijima from Persona 5 basically has the same motivation, she just responds to it differently.
love how throughout the video you continuously explain how stuff is left up to interpretation and it's not incorrect to interpret the characters as queer, and you already have comments telling you that interpreting them as queer is wrong based purely on the games text, good work guys 🙃
something thats always annoyed me was whenever people would say 'naoto's story is about misogyny.' like..yes..as a trans man, WE STILL EXPERIENCE MISOGYNY. before we physically transition (hell even after, too), we ARE still seen as women! I get what they're trying to say, but it just feels like they completely forget that we too experience misogyny.
I think that we are overlooking the fact that this game was truly ahead of its time when it came to lgbt/gender representation in video games, while i do not agree with all 3 of the lgbt narratives within persona 4 100%, the fact that we can speculate about these characters’ identities is really progressive for 2008, even if some may feel like its overriding other narratives it is still cool to have that bit of late 2000s progressiveness as a sprinkle on top
You're right that the late 2000s progressiveness adds a unique vibe to the game, but I also agree none of the rep is 100% perfect either, P4 is very much a weird game like that!
I don't disagree with the video but I just wanted to share my interpretation of Kanji's arc and how Kanji's shadow was more connected to that old-fashioned idea that hobbies outside of the norm for your gender tie into your sexuality. That would be why Kanji's social link doesn't really address his sexuality and instead focuses on his hobbies: that shadow he was afraid of accepting wasn't a manifestation of his repressed sexuality, but of his fear of being seen as gay for having feminine hobbies. That doesn't mean he couldn't still be bisexual (that's certainly left open for player interpretation) but I didn't get the impression that was what the game was trying to say directly. As for Naoto I'm almost 100% positive that her character and the way it was written was mostly a product of the time. Even as a cis male I find it hard to not notice the coding and the scenes where she's dressing like a girl or being told to act more feminine feel very uncomfortable, and I'm sure I'm not alone in wishing that her romance route didn't force you to affirm her gender. I still think the message of her arc is valid and I know the stuff about making her act feminine is pretty much fanservice but the way it's set-up is so trans-coded it's hard to not believe that the writers at the time just didn't think of making Naoto trans because that sort of progressiveness was even less accepted back then (you pointed this out but the way the game treats gender reaffirming surgery makes that pretty clear.) If the game were made today I'm sure they'd write her differently but I also don't think a potential remake would change that. At best (and I don't think that's unlikely) they'll probably retain the general idea and message of her arc but not force the player to make her dress in a girl's uniform and whatnot, like how P3R doesn't force you to date every girl.
Thanks for your feedback! And tbh I think you're right that they wouldn't change much with a remake, especially when considering the changes they did and didn't make with 3reload.
As a gay man who played through P4G You really hit it on the dot with my grievances with Yosukes character As much as I would have loved for the romance option to have been in the official version, it still wouldn’t change much of the game and most of yosukes homophobic remarks would still be weird. I just can’t help but think how they could’ve have that and also improved upon Yosukes character and writing but instead it came out as him being homoerotic with Yu while also being homophobic to Kanji and to a lesser extent, Teddie
i think a lot of people also fail to mention how literally throughout the WHOLE dungeon for naoto the shadow is making it seem like naoto doesnt get respected due to their age and then they drop the gender bombshell right at the end and that + the fact that naoto was originally designed to be male and they changed it because the boy/girl ratio would be off always makes me question how much they actually worked on naotos arc which is why it comes across as sloppy whether you see them as trans or not
Kanji - His arc is more about masculinity than sexuality, but I honestly think he comes off as bisexual in the text, since even when he thought Naoto was male, he was still attracted to her. Naoto - I think interpreting Naoto as trans is just a misreading of the game's text, though I definitely think there are trans parallels in her story, and I can see how trans people would identify with parts of her arc. Yosuke - tbh, his character would have been a lot stronger if he were explicitly gay or bi. I kind of still think he reads as closeted, and it's clear that was the original intent, but, well, missed opportunity I suppose.
The whole thing that always bothered me about naoto and kanji is that the setup of the shadows and them are perfect for a queer store, the entire thing with the shadows is characters denying parts of themselves that they feel shame in, I think the idea of the shadows as a concept and the idea of self acceptance and rejection are fundamentally incomprehensible if the characters themselves aren’t queer. If the characters are supposed to be rejecting parts of themselves they struggle with or don’t want others to see, why would it be possible for shadows to say or be things they aren’t, especially because they’re literally born from the insecurities of the characters. Shadow Kanji explicitly shows interest in men, and shadow Naoto explicitly wants Naoto to have srs, if these shadows are them, I don’t see how it makes any sense for these to not be actual parts of the characters to me
The whole point is that Kanji feels and views himself as a man, but other people view him as effeminate and queer because of his hobbies. In the story we learn that the shadows are not really how the characters feel, but rather it's the role they feel like they should be taking because of societal pressure. Kanji knows how people view him because of his hobbies, thus he suppresses his shadow because he doesn't believe that's a good representation of him. We even learn that he hates being labelled like this, just because of the way he acts and the things he does. Earliest example of this is when the broadcast labels him as a "bike gang member" all the while the guy hates those people and fights them out of the streets so his mom can sleep. Shadows in P4 aren't actual shadows in the traditional Jungian sense. Rather than suppressed animalistic desires they're more so for our characters to go: "Yeah this is how society views me. So what?" That's even the whole point of getting a persona after accepting their shadow. They obtain the facade to face the hardships of life and pressures of society. They literally recognize the place society puts them in and develop the persona to thrive against that. Same thing with Naoto and other characters. If anything with Naoto it's even simpler, because we had similar characters in western media, such as Mulan. A character that represents herself as a man to be able to gain the respect she deserves in a male dominated field. No one seems to doubt her identity as a woman but why Naoto? Despite the fact that she literally starts presenting as herself right after her shadow is defeated. One might find it attractive to label these characters from a queer perspective but they simply aren't. However, I'd actually be delighted if Atlus gave us actual queer and trans characters as I feel there's an abundance of creative liberty they can take with such characters because of the mechanics of personas in the franchise.
Gay ass game and i love it Won't let Hashino's transphobia (as also seen in P3 and P5 with the beach scene and Shinjuku scene) taint the games. Also *love* seeing how the only times Naoto is shown as female, it's to reduce the character to fan service, lovely.. Subtext and metatext are very important but a lot of people don't wanna recognise that and instead call it headcannon
@@SaiyanGamer95 The closest I can think of is a moment in Operation Babe Hunt in old P3, where the main cast encounter a transvestite. It gets changed into them encountering a conspiracy theorist instead in Reload.
I think queer people trying to interpret P4 as being genuinely pro LGBT are doing impressive mental gymnastics. An actual queer analysis of this text doesn't question if naoto is trans or not or if kanji is gay or not. It asks WHY Kanji and Naoto are portrayed this way and how it affects the player. I played P4 before I came out as trans, and it hindered my process of self acceptance, because I took it to heart that wanting to be the opposite sex is foolish, that i was just confused, and I had to accept "my body" like Naoto's "friends" pressure her to become more feminine. Persona 4 in a vaccum isn't a great game. It's a deeply homophobic story about how queer people aren't actually queer and they're just confused. This game is a disservice to the LGBT community and I don't understand how it's still so highly regarded. And I say all this as a big Persona 1, 3 and 5 fan.
Thankfully they try to fix things somehow in P4D. Where naoto more clearly identifies as non-binary and isn't disrespected by her peers the way she is in the main game. And they removed the transphobic jokes from Persona 3 Reload. So I can hope that in a possible remake P4 can become an actually good game. I'm not holding my breath for that to happen tho.
Totally agree with you, people sometimes interpret the anti queer parts of the games as just dumb jokes but I interpret it as actually mean spirited homophobic and transphobic remarks by the devs, and I say this as a straight cis japanese man.
Kanji and Naoto's queer coding aside, it seems to me that Persona 4 attemps to draw parallels with Shakespeare's works. For starters, Naoto's case is similar to the case of Lady Macbeth. Due to misogyny and gender roles in western (and Japanese, in this case) society, both Naoto and Lady Macbeth abhor womanhood, instead believing that transitioning would better their livelihoods, insofar as attempting to undergo sex reassignment surgery. This isn't to say that neither Lady Macbeth nor Naoto are trans. For Kanji, his case reflects that of the play As You LIke It. In this play, a character named Phebe falls in love with a man named Ganymede, who is later revealed to actually be a woman by the name of Rosalind. This is much like Kanji's story, in the way that Kanji falls in love with a masc-presenting Naoto, in the same way that Phebe does to Ganymede. Additionally, due to being insecure about his sexuality, Kanji also crossdresses, attempting to find romantic success with men, a topic also displayed in As You Like It. Do take these interpretations with a grain of salt, as I have not played most of P4, nor studied Shakespeare.
I first played P4 when it came out as a newly out gay cis man just about to graduate high school. I was so fucking happy that Kanji was gay and Naoto was trans that I completely ignored all of the ways that the game tries to walk back that stuff and loved it uncritically. I replayed P4G just this year now in my 30s and the whole thing was just frustrating. It's got that strong vibe of mid-00s "no-homo" to it. It would probably feel ahead of its time if P5 went on to have some LGBT rep in it but looking back it just feels so deflating. You can go back to older books, films, shows, manga, etc. and find queer representation that's much more positive, but you can't find barely anything in videogames that isn't more or less a joke past the last decade or so.
I know you mentioned this briefly and I'm sure a lot of comments have mentioned as well, but the interconnectedness of kanji and naoto's storylines can be read far deeper than is referenced in the video. Personally, I was spoiled for naoto's reveal of being a woman before I started the game. By the time I met kanji and observed his clear attraction to naoto, I came to a quick conclusion. That atlus making naoto present as female by the end of the game was, in part, to allow kanji to have been 'straight' all along. That even though he felt attraction to naoto, it's okay because she was actually a woman this whole time! Then I played naoto's dungeon and I didn't really think that anymore. I think the story of naoto feeling insecure about her identity as a woman in a male dominated workforce is a fantastic one. But like you said, either interpretation of naoto's gender identity is a valid one. But the more I played the game, the more it seemed to tip back slightly in the direction of kanji being straight all along. There are multiple instances of kanji seeming relieved that naoto now identifies as a woman, which to me seemed like his attraction is now socially acceptable since even though naoto still dresses and acts like a man, they say they are a woman, and so does everyone else. That means kanji can't be gay! I find that persona tends to do this, where a character's arc will end up seemingly disregarded after their moment, be it their dungeon or the palace connected to them in p5. Kanji accepts himself and his attraction and still knows he is a man. But later on his ambiguous queer identity is played for laughs (mostly by yosuke). ann and her best friend are sexually assaulted by a teacher but her body is still played up for sexiness and laughs (ryuji looking up her skirt, ryuji looking down her shirt, the popsicle stick joke with ryuji at the beach, etc). naoto is still blatantly uncomfortable with attention to their body after their dungeon, like you mention with the pageant and doctor's office and bathhouse. Whoever said that the rest of the characters don't seem to know how to handle kanji after his dungeon is so right. It's the same thing with naoto and with ann.
as a trans guy myself, i just see the narrative on naoto after their arc so harsh for some reason. i didn't pick up this game again (and im like. really into persona and smt as a whole, ive been so for years so its weird for me to do something like that) because THIS narrative in particular makes me physically uncomfortable but i also understand how at the time you couldn't just have it all and write openly queer characters. it just pains me when the whole crew sees Naoto as their sex after it's revealed all of a sudden. I really resonate with Naoto's gender-dysphoria-ish writing because it's an everyday thing for me, so whenever the game totally shuts that down i just can't keep playing. it makes me feel pathetic.
One thing I would've brought up would've been the cross dressing pageant at the culture festival. This next to the camping trip is by far one of that worst sequences in the game. While cross dressing is more connected to drag, a subsection of queer culture, the game goes out of its way to willing mock if someone doesn't fit the exact look one would expect of gender conformation, then it's wrong and disgusting The crowd makes awful comments. Even before we start kids often say "that's kinda wrong/disgusting." Yosuke, Kanji, and Yu(who I think looks great) gets so many awful comments thrown at them. The "imagine sitting down in the bus with them" comment is particularly vile. I am a binary trans woman and while I know this is cross dressing which doesn't apply to me, I do struggle with image issues trying to appear as feminine in public. So the game mocking characters for looking somewhere between masculine and feminine as wrong and disgusting just hurts. One could argue kids or cruel, or the game is ok with it cause of teddie. But teddie gets a pass cause he passes, he conforms to exactly what a girl should look like by the games standards. And the game never challenges the crowds jeers, alongside having harmful homophobic text, and text that portrays any form of gender surgery as harmful and bad, this on top of that is the cherry on shit cake. Not to mention this is the same day where naoto is forced to be uncomfortable, fatphobia, and the next day terrible hot springs scene that ends with the boys attempting to breach the women's rooms to do who knows what's and ends with a teacher wanting to fuck her students So overall a fun 2 hours in p4 lol
I've always believed Shadow Kanji represented Kanji's interest in hobbies that are perceived as being more feminine, and that him coming off as "gay" was merely an exaggeration. Naoto dresses like a boy because of how the Japanese Police treats Female workers. Yosuke's definitely straight. but more so takes issue with Kanji's hobby of sewing and/or his perceived status as a delinquent.
Turning this into a debate into man vs woman is stupid because the point isnt just accepting her as a woman its supposed to be accepting her as just who she is as naoto, about her being her own person regardless of what her body turns into as an adult, about being able to be seen as someone who has humanity regardless of her sex. she was able to do this as a child, allowing herself to be tomboyish but as her body changed through puberty and now she is more visibly female she lost the complexity she had now only being treated as dictated by her body. This is why she probably doesnt wear revealing clothes and hides her measurements. This was probably meant to be another ambiguous thing like with kanji, most likely being the reason for why her personas gender is ambiguous because it was never the point, so lets just be real here, Naoto being so pushed as girl seems out of place because it was probably just put in because a girl with a complex gender expression isnt good "waifu" material for cishet men, and its probably why all that stuffs in her social link and romance route.
If the rumors are true and if we Ever get a four remake I definitely would like them to change and or fix it as gender identity/sexuality is more present today and as someone who is Pansexual Non-Binary it would be nice ☺️. Idk I just need them to rewrite Naoto's whole social link as it would be hella triggering for Trans people.
From my point of view, as a non binary writer born female, the Naoto gender thing appears thanks to the confusion of the writers of the game, I think they wanted to represent both the trans experience (even if it wasn't that good) and the sexism within the japanese police force, and without a proper understanding of both problems and with the traditional mentality of Japan, which I imagine was terrible in 2006/8, they mixed both things as an attempt to do something deep but without real confrontation of the japanese mentality and making a half cooked story whose two main points clash. Naoto story would have worked so much better if it was just a trans story or a sexism story, just as the rest of the game. Their fear of fighting social norms and their need to please the stablished public is what made this game worse, Kanji is the only rescatable example, only because saying that men can sew is not as big as having a full on gay romance or a trans/gender non-conforming character in a game whose main public is straight men. That is to say that, for me, both interpretations of the character are valid (I personally headcanon them as gender non- conforming) because this shitty game was made in Japan the late 2000's and if even at this year gay marriage is not legal there, in that time it's even surprising they wanted to introduce so many queer stories
Clarification, I say shitty in a love kinda way, Persona 4 is one of my favorite games of all times and if the writers were more educated this game would have been amazing
I think Yusuke's homphobia is more meant to be internalized homophobia since the game makes clear that hes not confident in his sexuality. Also one point that makes the trans reading less clear for Naoto is that the transformation would also age her up. The sex change imagery becomes less overt with that in mind, I feel. I'd recommend watching Hiding in Public's videos on the matter as he has very interesting perspectives on the game as he did so much research on it. As well as providing Japanese context that may have been missed. Bis theory for why the Yusuke romance option was cut is really intresting.
Honestly naoto reads to me like a trans character who was written by someone who is transphobic. Because Naoto acts like a trans man - they express a lot of chest dysphoria and discomfort with being seen as and addressed as a woman, but if the writer doesn't believe trans people are real then these experiences must be explained away and the character must accept their gender assigned at birth no matter what.
Where in the game did Naoto look uncomfortable being addressed as a woman? The closest I can think of is when she get flustered when the male characters (minus Kanji for the most part) try to smooth talk her a bit. Like when Yosuke does a few times & when Yu romances her. Is there a scene I’m forgetting about? Probably…
imo i feel like naotos arc is trying to tackle both how it feels to be trans and how to feels to be a woman in a male dominated job. i hope if persona 4 gets a remake atlus clears up everything cuz theres so many parts of their arc that seem to contradict eachother. (ill still be headcanoning naoto as trans for now tho cuz im trans and therefore every character i like is trans too lol)
I am a massive Persona 4 game and I am trans and bi and what I say Persona 4 is an absolute mess of a game, I feel that it was trying so much to be so much but failed. Naoto is a very trans coded character and yes in game its like no shes a woman but in my head canon they are genderfluid. Anyone to disregard Naoto from being trans coded is well I feel they do need to look at the trans community of Persona to see why people see that. Kanji however his character is to read anyway but I think the recent point of arguments is of people who call Kanjis character arc homophobic because hes not gay which is extremely insulting as a character does not have to come forward and say I'm gay and there can be subtext, I have always seen Kanji as pansexual and regardless of which gender Kanji dates in the future that can never be taken away from him. Yosuke however....hes a missed oppertunity theres no sugar coating it and yeah I would of loved to see Yosuke battle internalised homophobia which they were going for they just didn't and its sad, in future Persona 4 games they do keep leaning to gay Yosuke but its very strange. Another characters I noticed you did not talk about is Chie and Yukiko and this could be due to arguments not using them however those two are heavy in the queer media especially when Yukiko calls Chie her prince and the constant flirting they show through out the game, its missed that they are dateable where they could be like undateable due to relationships they have being each other but yeah I love Persona 4 a lot but as it stands the story and game is a bit of a mess and if they do remake this I feel the team will have to completely revise the characters and add more than just leave it as it is because the state it is is well not great.
When it comes to Naoto I think it’s due to the trans community not being the most well known in Japan at the time. Resulting in characters that aren’t trans accidentally being coded that way due to Japanese writers who don’t really know the trans community. Or it could result in trans characters that feel like they were written by people with good intent but lacked understanding on how it fully worked. Like Kei Kisaragi from the manga “Black Jack”. He’s basically a trans man, but possibly to due to lack info on the subject matter from the author at the time, it comes off as him transitioning not because he wanted to but because of how he’s a AFAB that can’t give birth due to medical reasons.
@@allthedumbthingz-oc5cc Honestly I completely agree with that, it was not author intention however the community has created a space. In the canon of Persona 4 shes a female however the fandom can headcanon her anyway and I feel that is something that the community should remember as well
Thanks for pointing out chie and yukiko in particular, it was something I wanted to talk about, but since all the research I was doing was so focused on the three characters I ended up talking about they ended up slipping through the cracks!
@@szinzy You can headcanon Naoto as much as you want, I know the Transformers fandom loves to do that. Still doesn’t stop it from not being fully canon though.
@@allthedumbthingz-oc5cc Bruh I was literally saying its a headcanon that is valid and saying "transformers fandom" is giving transphobia vibes. If you read what I said its good to have Naoto headcanoned as trans as in canon Naoto shows a lot of experiences that a trans person normally goes through and so the headcanon is valid. The canon shows Naoto as cisgendered, I don't know why you had to add calling the trans community the transformers fandom
Not to feed the trolls, but I think Naoto's discomfort with appearing more feminine has to do more with her shyness around sex and romance than just looking feminine. I mean pretty much every romanceable character in P4 is very shy during their rank 10 event, and some of them are even more shy than others, such as Ayane.
Personally I think the game mostly leaves Kanji up to interpretation, given that it never fully takes either side when it comes to him. For Naoto though, I feel a lot of people ignore the cultural context of her character when analyzing her. It’s fine if people headcannon her as trans, I just don’t agree based on the text of the game, and I feel like trying to say she’s trans is ignoring the actual message the game is trying to send with her. Yosuke’s totally a closeted bisexual though. (Half-joking)
Hi, I'm here to get mad and correct a stupid point of argument. The love confession from yosuke. People are grossly unaware how english dubs are produced for videogames which has resulted in people thinking this must have "gotten far enough into development". No. The way game dubbing works is they RIP the files and scripts from the game, dub them, then glue them back where they found them. They don't eyeball ever shot of the game. They don't 100% the entire game before starting the dubbing process. They blindly grab files more often than not and proceed to try and recapture the performance during the dubbing. That doesn't mean every second of the game is a blind read for everyone, but it's honestly frustrating that people argue about this under the basis of "they cut it twice, proof because they DUBBED IT" which shows they don't realize this happens often, there are several games where cut dialogue is dubbed over. It's more accurate to say we don't know if it got far at all based on how little of it was left in the Japanese code. Idk if you'll pin this but I feel it's important fans recognize that information because I feel a good chunk of the reason why people engage in the theorizing as hard as they do because "well it was dubbed"
actually i think his argument that in the code you could see that theres leftovers of a second option that most likely would lead to a romance option kinda makes it seem more credible, like i dont know if id say it was taken "late" into development, but it must have been, comfortably, mid development
How far along do you think a concept has to get before it goes into the process of being voice acted at all? The fact that it was dubbed doesn't really tell us anything but the fact the voice lines exist in the first place and were in the files as well as the fact that the leftover romance flag is still in the game suggests that the concept was a decent ways into development
No it's not.... Kanji is just going through that adolescent confusion stage, lots of us went through it before really figuring out who we were, same with Naoto except she's straight, it was just a sex crisis in her case. And actually kanji's arc is resolved with realizing he just really likes Naoto, as a girl. Maybe I missed a few side characters the comments are talking about but overall the takeaway from the game is that our conflicts with our identity are what creates these mistaken concepts of who we are
Hey guys, just because I answer the title of the video in the negative, although it's posing a question you want to answer yes to, is no reason to get all hot and bothered with me. Keep your fantasies to yourself please. It's not fair of everyone to demand that every series has to be dominated by non heterosexual relationships, like how it's demanded of yandere simulator, fire emblem, persona, love live, etc it goes totally against the intent of the creators. At the end of the day most relationships are hetero and we like a good romantic story, or to choose our waifus or whatever you will, as much as the next guy. Unless that guy's gay, in which case he has series like Undertale, Wildermyth, Life Is Strange, Stardew Valley, etc to make the choice or to see it outright. For the record by the way I can like ambiguous characters as much as the next guy. I played persona q before ever playing a mainline game and when I met the p4 team Naoto was my instant favorite, and that was the same while I played the game. Although honestly I didn't like her as much for her sexual identity crisis as I did as she was just brilliant and really helped with the puzzles, made great deductions, was the only female in P4 original who was never sexualized or shown as incompetent, etc
@@williamschnarr7961 reading comprehension is dead… the only thing we said was basically, "did you even watch the video ?" No need to pretend people are ""forcing"" queerness on characters. Anyway, it's no use arguing, because you and I won't change our minds, it's useless.
Naoto is not trans, kanji is not gay and yosuke isnt closeted because most of you played golden where hes flanderized in the new scenes, making comments about kanji in almost every new scene hes in with kanji, and kanji also suffers from this. Play the ps2 undub instead. Cut content is not canon.
NO, it isnt... Neither Kanji or Naoto are... Maybe in future entries, but nothing about Persona 4 is gay (not that it would be a bad thing, it's just that making stuff up to fit a narrative or agenda is quite evil, and whoever does that needs to have a serious conversation with their shadow self rather than blaming others for how warped they are deep inside)
Why is it suddenly an agenda when people want to see a character as LGBT. Answer that without being homophobic, directly or indirectly (notice how I'm not saying either character is queer, no deflecting)
As nearly every trans advocate has ever claimed, if Naoto says she's a girl, she's a girl. Her motivations for wanting to be a man should also be examined. Her family is a long line of detectives, passed from father to son, ending with Naoto who has no brothers. The police force is also predominantly male, tied with the family pressure to hide her female traits. She's definitely feeling a trans dilemma even if she decides she's female in the end.
As you said, Naoto being a pseudo love interest for Kanji interlinks both their stories of identity. The fact that Naoto presents as a man even after resolving her issues with being a woman kind of gives Kanji the best of both worlds: a woman who "is a man". He might see Naoto as a socially acceptable replacement, catering to his want for a male but having it in a female body, or she's a girl who doesn't stress the feminine that he's been suppressing for so long. Either way, it's more of a consolation prize than truly resolving Kanji's issues.
You’re literally saying what I’ve been muttering at the screen lol. I never thought about the Naoto being a “consolation prize” for Kanji though, mostly because I don’t really ship the two of them tbh.
I don't think the Shirogane profession was ever passed down from father to son. In fact, both of Naoto's parents were detectives.
There is minor npc near the library who is a lesbian, she explicitly says says she loves her female senpai who is a girl, and she even gets jealous when her crush gets a boyfriend. She is a very minor character who doesn’t have a name, you can find all the dialogue options with her no RUclips
edit: ruclips.net/video/NX6DpRC9Nxw/видео.html all cutscenes
@@greatdevourskeleton7685 Thanks for pointing this out! Love that having a lesbian npc in the school hallways was carried over from p3!
Oh the mitsuru fangirl in school?
@@user-et1vh7ge9f That was Persona 3
@@user-et1vh7ge9f no there's a another npc in p4, he the girl near library that tells you to study in the rain
@@greatdevourskeleton7685 oh I remember her
Persona 4 is so homophobic it loops around to being kinda gay while still being really really homophobic.
this
Surprised you didn't mention how Yukiko's shadow wanting Chie to be her prince. Giving me lots of Utena vibes, if you know what I mean.
The shadows are a homunculi of both valid aspects of the self and the external world’s perceptions, so it’s a bit tricky to tell what’s what from time to time
I never understood why the whole kanji is queer argument is so controversial
Cuz him being queer and bi wouldnt really detract his other problems
Him being queer and liking hobbies we usually consider feminine doesn't make him any less of a man
I dont understand why saying that his story is about him not wanting to be perceived as feminine cuz of his hobbies would make it less likely that he is queer
And the ideia that his queerness also was affecting his insecurities would just add more to it
@@miigi-p4939 I agree. I’ve always seen Kanji’s story as being brilliant in the fact that it leaves enough room for any interpretation of his sexuality without changing the core message of his story. It makes his struggles with masculinity hit a lot harder when you realize that whatever sexuality his is doesn’t matter.
@@egg_l0rd13 If it doesn't matter, then sit your ass down while we re-colonize the fandom from you rainbow mafia perverts.
Love and tickles, someone who actually plays video games
Honestly same. Being in the Bi Kanji camp, I find it funny how it equally upsets the "Kanji is straight" and "Kanji is gay" camps, yet it literally doesn't contradict the points either try to make
I think even the final story in the game leaves it pretty open to Kanji being bi.
Very disappointed we did not get the analysis of Yu and Teddie’s passionate make out scene…
Couldn't talk about it without getting too excited.... my apologies 🥲
Which one? There were two kisses with Sensei 😘
@@GreenThunder121wait I only know one, please mention both moments
@@misspaige3623 After winning the Midnight Miracle Quiz game show the prize was a kiss from Teddie. So when the player wins Teddie chases Yu off screen to kiss him in bear form
It's interesting to me that the most plausible reason Yosuke's romance option was cut was due to focus testing. Since I'm pretty sure if you were to ask most people who like him as a character (me included) they will mention the homoeroticism in a positive light with most of the adaptations of the game apparently adding on to it.
I mean regarding Naoto... I think the worst part about the way the gender of Naoto is being handeled is more that narrative just switching around without actually holding space for the characters feelings much.
Like Naoto was being he/him'ed the whole time during the game and it doesn't seem like it was a problem at all for the character. Then the shadow self say sth along the lines of "you won't ever be able to cross boundaries of sex" and then everybody on the crew just goes: "OHHHH! So Naoto is a girl!!" and just proceed to she/her Naoto for the rest of the story without ever asking ANY questions or consulting Naoto's feelings on the matter.
On top of that I think the only time Naoto says sth it is along the lines of: "I hope you can still treat me like before" which I guess doesn't include the pronouns used or anything else about their gender role or presentation???
Also it may be a bit "mean" so please take this criticism with a grain of salt: I think you focused too much on the interpretation of others or on fandom discourse instead of making an analysis of the game instead. While I get your idea, I find that your video feel more like a compilation of online opinions with you looking at people argue about parts of the game and then being a "middle ground"?
Honestly I just I could hear more of your analysis of the game! Your interpretation of the work was really nice! I wish they'd be more of it 👏🏾
Thanks for the feedback, and the lack of regard for Naoto's feelings is really worth considering! And don't worry it isn't mean at all! I do enjoy looking and analysing other opinions but usually try to restrain it a bit more, but with Naoto I placed a really heavy emphasis on the 'discourse' since it's so complex, and by examining it you can see all the different ways people choose to interpret (or shut down interpretations) of the character. Even so, I get what you mean and maybe I could've given some more of my own opinions in between. When I've finished all 4 parts of this series I'm going to upload them all in a mega-video and spend some time at the end going over feedback and bits I missed pointed out by comments, so I'll definitely try to give some more conclusive opinions on Naoto there! :)
@@garfieldkermit AWWW YEAH! That's sounds like a great idea! I'm looking forward to more of your work! 🥰
while the whole thing about Naoto feeling as though she needs to be more masculine to fit into a male-dominated work environment probably does have a lot going for it, it seems like people - and, perhaps, the game - forget that she is a fifteen year old girl trying to play detective and not an adult woman who has faced corporate misogyny her whole life
HUH ??? Naoto is 15 ????????
That can't be, isn't the cast all in the 16-18 range ?
@regalseagull nope, the protag, yosuke, chie, and yukiko are all second years in high school, placing them at 16 or 17 at the oldest.
kanji, rise, and naoto are all first years, meaning they're all 15 or 16 at the absolute oldest.
either way, pretty much every playable character in any persona game is a kid. p4 is an odd one, tho, because there are no playable 3rd year students, unlike in p3 and p5, but even those 3rd years would be 17 or 18 at most - which are still kids, really.
Maybe kanji got held back a year or so, who knows
In fairness, she is
1) currently actively working as a detective, so she has likely at least been exposed to the ideas of misogyny from her co-workers, alongside the ideas in media (a big theme of persona 4 is people being misled by the media, after all)
2) Just because someone hasn’t EXPERIENCED workplace misogyny for a long period of time doesn’t mean it can’t affect them. Naoto has grown up with her entire image of success associated with the idea of being male. You can’t just say that wouldn’t affect her because she hasn’t “truly experienced misogyny” by some arbitrary standard. Being a child shouldn’t be an excuse for people to invalidate your experiences.
Not saying that choosing to interpret Naoto as trans is wrong, but I am saying that I don’t agree with your assessment that what the actual text says Naoto’s issue is is illogical.
@@spookyscary6400 there is a gag in golden where Kanji isn't old enough to ride a bike though Naoto and Rise seem to be able to have one, most of p4 it seems Naoto was 16 even before you even see her during the 2nd dungeon arc with her birthday at April 27th
@@egg_l0rd13 i mean, that isnt quite what i said, i said that the corporate misogyny aspect probably has a lot going for it. the text is just insane for asserting that a 15 year old kid, regardless of gender, can be actively working as a detective on a police force - that's the type of thing you need actual qualifications for, or at least, to have actually completed your education. The pigs are kinda justified for dismissing that upstart 15 year old that thinks they know better than anyone else - but they would probably use her gender to discredit her even further. Girl or not, trans or cis, there is just no believable way that a teenage kid could be an established detective working in a police force, so, the narrative kind of falls apart. In an alternate universe, where p4 was written well, naoto could have been a 3rd year student doing some kind of work experience placement within the police department and being subjected to workplace sexism at the beginning of her career which could trigger those insecurities that her dream job may be out of reach solely because of her assigned gender at birth which gives rise to her shadow
I always feel like when it comes to discussing queerness in persona 4 people always assume things from a western perspective which definitely skews things, I think both LadyVirgilia and Hiding In Private has made great analyses of both Kanji and Naoto that actually delves more into a Japanese context and a lot of the subtext that westerners usually miss out on (Kanji has queer-coding, it's just Japanaese queer-coding that's not obvious to most people in the English speaking fandom). Also important in Naoto's case is the fact that a lot of the trans imagery isn't intentional but because it's still there (her whole ass dungeon), it is fairly up for interpretation. It really is just people who refuse to understand nuance which I guess is typical of fandom communities in general.
Holy smokes, thank you for saying this! I’ve been looking for this comment lmao. I love both of those RUclipsrs and I stand firmly on the side that a lot of the fandom does refuse to look into how Japanese culture influences how these characters are written. This is why I don’t interpret Naoto as trans myself, because I personally relate more to the context of her intended story and her journey of learning to accept her gender regardless of what society thinks she should be. I’ve always seen the gendered issues in this game as more of a discussion of gender roles rather than queerness primarily. Regardless, choosing to interpret these characters as queer is not wrong in and of itself, I just believe that trying to force your ideas on people who are actually trying to interpret the text from its cultural perspective is wrong.
@@egg_l0rd13 maybe I'm reading into it too much but that last line "I just believe that trying to force your ideas on people who are actually trying to interpret the text from its cultural perspective is wrong." rubs me a little wrong when queerness is in the original Japanese text (Kanji and Yosuke) but if you're talking about Naoto specifically then I can understand! (I might've put those 'people who are trying' in the wrong box so to speak, the weirdo "anti-woke" orientalist kind
Thanks for the extra sources, and I agree that I definitely could've focused more on different cultural insights! Once I've finished this series I'm going to upload them together as one video and use that as an opportunity to mention anything I might have missed at the end, so I'll definitely look into this! :)
@@feedthedevilscats9027 I understand, and I did mean Naoto specifically, sorry for not making that clear. I personally believe that the original text leaves Kanji rather ambiguous, though Japanese symbolism (such as the bathhouse theme of his dungeon) leans a bit toward the queer side of things. And Yosuke…
I mean, he’s the embodiment of the “closeted gay person is homophobic” trope.
Regardless I do think you picked up well on the main point of my comment, and that was what I meant when I said “forcing” people to interpret characters a certain way. I didn’t mean it in an anti-woke way, not everyone who reads Naoto as trans is a jerk who thinks their opinion is the only correct one, that would be silly. What I mean is that I think those who fervently believe that not interpreting Naoto as trans is in some way hateful or exclusionary are ironically excluding those who relate to or directly share Naoto’s experience in a way that is unrelated to being trans. In a way that is female or even non-female. Heck, I’m a cis man and I heavily relate to Naoto’s struggles because I don’t necessarily identify with all the expectations that come with my gender, just like her. I mean, Naoto’s experience isn’t even exclusive to Persona 4, Sae Nijima from Persona 5 basically has the same motivation, she just responds to it differently.
@@egg_l0rd13 Yeah, I see what you mean! ^^" (and agree if that wasn't obvious xD)
love how throughout the video you continuously explain how stuff is left up to interpretation and it's not incorrect to interpret the characters as queer, and you already have comments telling you that interpreting them as queer is wrong based purely on the games text, good work guys 🙃
I love how you said the "threat" of a remake cuz lmao
something thats always annoyed me was whenever people would say 'naoto's story is about misogyny.' like..yes..as a trans man, WE STILL EXPERIENCE MISOGYNY. before we physically transition (hell even after, too), we ARE still seen as women! I get what they're trying to say, but it just feels like they completely forget that we too experience misogyny.
I love how much goddamn sense youre talking, especially the analysis of the often questionable motives of people in these discussions.
Thank you! There'll be even more of that in the next part, analysing content like this is a not-so-guilty pleasure :)
I think that we are overlooking the fact that this game was truly ahead of its time when it came to lgbt/gender representation in video games, while i do not agree with all 3 of the lgbt narratives within persona 4 100%, the fact that we can speculate about these characters’ identities is really progressive for 2008, even if some may feel like its overriding other narratives it is still cool to have that bit of late 2000s progressiveness as a sprinkle on top
You're right that the late 2000s progressiveness adds a unique vibe to the game, but I also agree none of the rep is 100% perfect either, P4 is very much a weird game like that!
I don't disagree with the video but I just wanted to share my interpretation of Kanji's arc and how Kanji's shadow was more connected to that old-fashioned idea that hobbies outside of the norm for your gender tie into your sexuality. That would be why Kanji's social link doesn't really address his sexuality and instead focuses on his hobbies: that shadow he was afraid of accepting wasn't a manifestation of his repressed sexuality, but of his fear of being seen as gay for having feminine hobbies. That doesn't mean he couldn't still be bisexual (that's certainly left open for player interpretation) but I didn't get the impression that was what the game was trying to say directly.
As for Naoto I'm almost 100% positive that her character and the way it was written was mostly a product of the time. Even as a cis male I find it hard to not notice the coding and the scenes where she's dressing like a girl or being told to act more feminine feel very uncomfortable, and I'm sure I'm not alone in wishing that her romance route didn't force you to affirm her gender. I still think the message of her arc is valid and I know the stuff about making her act feminine is pretty much fanservice but the way it's set-up is so trans-coded it's hard to not believe that the writers at the time just didn't think of making Naoto trans because that sort of progressiveness was even less accepted back then (you pointed this out but the way the game treats gender reaffirming surgery makes that pretty clear.) If the game were made today I'm sure they'd write her differently but I also don't think a potential remake would change that. At best (and I don't think that's unlikely) they'll probably retain the general idea and message of her arc but not force the player to make her dress in a girl's uniform and whatnot, like how P3R doesn't force you to date every girl.
Thanks for your feedback! And tbh I think you're right that they wouldn't change much with a remake, especially when considering the changes they did and didn't make with 3reload.
The Yosuke scene gives me a feeling the devs wanted to add it but probably too scared to include it for whatever reason.
As a gay man who played through P4G
You really hit it on the dot with my grievances with Yosukes character
As much as I would have loved for the romance option to have been in the official version, it still wouldn’t change much of the game and most of yosukes homophobic remarks would still be weird. I just can’t help but think how they could’ve have that and also improved upon Yosukes character and writing but instead it came out as him being homoerotic with Yu while also being homophobic to Kanji and to a lesser extent, Teddie
As a gay man. Playing this game was so weird lmao. I loved it but it was so fucking gay without even saying it
Same here
Like I saw a lot of gay signs in the game and especially in Yosuke
i think a lot of people also fail to mention how literally throughout the WHOLE dungeon for naoto the shadow is making it seem like naoto doesnt get respected due to their age and then they drop the gender bombshell right at the end and that + the fact that naoto was originally designed to be male and they changed it because the boy/girl ratio would be off always makes me question how much they actually worked on naotos arc which is why it comes across as sloppy whether you see them as trans or not
Kanji - His arc is more about masculinity than sexuality, but I honestly think he comes off as bisexual in the text, since even when he thought Naoto was male, he was still attracted to her.
Naoto - I think interpreting Naoto as trans is just a misreading of the game's text, though I definitely think there are trans parallels in her story, and I can see how trans people would identify with parts of her arc.
Yosuke - tbh, his character would have been a lot stronger if he were explicitly gay or bi. I kind of still think he reads as closeted, and it's clear that was the original intent, but, well, missed opportunity I suppose.
I definitely see kanji as bisexual, naoto as vis and yosuke as being gay but scared to find out if he is or not.
The whole thing that always bothered me about naoto and kanji is that the setup of the shadows and them are perfect for a queer store, the entire thing with the shadows is characters denying parts of themselves that they feel shame in, I think the idea of the shadows as a concept and the idea of self acceptance and rejection are fundamentally incomprehensible if the characters themselves aren’t queer. If the characters are supposed to be rejecting parts of themselves they struggle with or don’t want others to see, why would it be possible for shadows to say or be things they aren’t, especially because they’re literally born from the insecurities of the characters. Shadow Kanji explicitly shows interest in men, and shadow Naoto explicitly wants Naoto to have srs, if these shadows are them, I don’t see how it makes any sense for these to not be actual parts of the characters to me
I’m gay for Persona 4.
Persona 4 fans only have three options:
1. Gay for chad Narukami
2. Gay for Adachi
3. Gay
The whole point is that Kanji feels and views himself as a man, but other people view him as effeminate and queer because of his hobbies.
In the story we learn that the shadows are not really how the characters feel, but rather it's the role they feel like they should be taking because of societal pressure.
Kanji knows how people view him because of his hobbies, thus he suppresses his shadow because he doesn't believe that's a good representation of him. We even learn that he hates being labelled like this, just because of the way he acts and the things he does. Earliest example of this is when the broadcast labels him as a "bike gang member" all the while the guy hates those people and fights them out of the streets so his mom can sleep.
Shadows in P4 aren't actual shadows in the traditional Jungian sense. Rather than suppressed animalistic desires they're more so for our characters to go: "Yeah this is how society views me. So what?" That's even the whole point of getting a persona after accepting their shadow. They obtain the facade to face the hardships of life and pressures of society. They literally recognize the place society puts them in and develop the persona to thrive against that.
Same thing with Naoto and other characters. If anything with Naoto it's even simpler, because we had similar characters in western media, such as Mulan. A character that represents herself as a man to be able to gain the respect she deserves in a male dominated field. No one seems to doubt her identity as a woman but why Naoto? Despite the fact that she literally starts presenting as herself right after her shadow is defeated.
One might find it attractive to label these characters from a queer perspective but they simply aren't. However, I'd actually be delighted if Atlus gave us actual queer and trans characters as I feel there's an abundance of creative liberty they can take with such characters because of the mechanics of personas in the franchise.
Gay ass game and i love it
Won't let Hashino's transphobia (as also seen in P3 and P5 with the beach scene and Shinjuku scene) taint the games.
Also *love* seeing how the only times Naoto is shown as female, it's to reduce the character to fan service, lovely..
Subtext and metatext are very important but a lot of people don't wanna recognise that and instead call it headcannon
I don't recall any transphobia in those games. At most, jokes that have aged poorly. And I especially don't recall any at all in P5.
@@SaiyanGamer95 The closest I can think of is a moment in Operation Babe Hunt in old P3, where the main cast encounter a transvestite. It gets changed into them encountering a conspiracy theorist instead in Reload.
@@allthedumbthingz-oc5cc Yup, I do recall that one. Still, I wouldn't put it as a knock against Hashino specifically.
I love your content so much.
Thank you so much!!
Careful lol I've seen people get death threats and suicide bates just for even alluding that any of the cast of p4 could be lgbt+ lmao
Another excellent upload. Truly enjoying these & cannot wait for part 3!
I think queer people trying to interpret P4 as being genuinely pro LGBT are doing impressive mental gymnastics. An actual queer analysis of this text doesn't question if naoto is trans or not or if kanji is gay or not. It asks WHY Kanji and Naoto are portrayed this way and how it affects the player.
I played P4 before I came out as trans, and it hindered my process of self acceptance, because I took it to heart that wanting to be the opposite sex is foolish, that i was just confused, and I had to accept "my body" like Naoto's "friends" pressure her to become more feminine.
Persona 4 in a vaccum isn't a great game. It's a deeply homophobic story about how queer people aren't actually queer and they're just confused.
This game is a disservice to the LGBT community and I don't understand how it's still so highly regarded.
And I say all this as a big Persona 1, 3 and 5 fan.
Thankfully they try to fix things somehow in P4D. Where naoto more clearly identifies as non-binary and isn't disrespected by her peers the way she is in the main game. And they removed the transphobic jokes from Persona 3 Reload. So I can hope that in a possible remake P4 can become an actually good game. I'm not holding my breath for that to happen tho.
Totally agree with you, people sometimes interpret the anti queer parts of the games as just dumb jokes but I interpret it as actually mean spirited homophobic and transphobic remarks by the devs, and I say this as a straight cis japanese man.
Yes, next question
The Pink Plague Duo of Yasogami gives more homophobic vibes though
Especially with their harassment in the pageant and inn
why is naoto so short 9:33 😭
great video man!
Kanji and Naoto's queer coding aside, it seems to me that Persona 4 attemps to draw parallels with Shakespeare's works.
For starters, Naoto's case is similar to the case of Lady Macbeth. Due to misogyny and gender roles in western (and Japanese, in this case) society, both Naoto and Lady Macbeth abhor womanhood, instead believing that transitioning would better their livelihoods, insofar as attempting to undergo sex reassignment surgery. This isn't to say that neither Lady Macbeth nor Naoto are trans.
For Kanji, his case reflects that of the play As You LIke It. In this play, a character named Phebe falls in love with a man named Ganymede, who is later revealed to actually be a woman by the name of Rosalind. This is much like Kanji's story, in the way that Kanji falls in love with a masc-presenting Naoto, in the same way that Phebe does to Ganymede.
Additionally, due to being insecure about his sexuality, Kanji also crossdresses, attempting to find romantic success with men, a topic also displayed in As You Like It.
Do take these interpretations with a grain of salt, as I have not played most of P4, nor studied Shakespeare.
i love naoto and it makes me so annoyed that barely anyone understands her
I first played P4 when it came out as a newly out gay cis man just about to graduate high school. I was so fucking happy that Kanji was gay and Naoto was trans that I completely ignored all of the ways that the game tries to walk back that stuff and loved it uncritically. I replayed P4G just this year now in my 30s and the whole thing was just frustrating. It's got that strong vibe of mid-00s "no-homo" to it. It would probably feel ahead of its time if P5 went on to have some LGBT rep in it but looking back it just feels so deflating.
You can go back to older books, films, shows, manga, etc. and find queer representation that's much more positive, but you can't find barely anything in videogames that isn't more or less a joke past the last decade or so.
I know you mentioned this briefly and I'm sure a lot of comments have mentioned as well, but the interconnectedness of kanji and naoto's storylines can be read far deeper than is referenced in the video.
Personally, I was spoiled for naoto's reveal of being a woman before I started the game. By the time I met kanji and observed his clear attraction to naoto, I came to a quick conclusion. That atlus making naoto present as female by the end of the game was, in part, to allow kanji to have been 'straight' all along. That even though he felt attraction to naoto, it's okay because she was actually a woman this whole time!
Then I played naoto's dungeon and I didn't really think that anymore. I think the story of naoto feeling insecure about her identity as a woman in a male dominated workforce is a fantastic one. But like you said, either interpretation of naoto's gender identity is a valid one.
But the more I played the game, the more it seemed to tip back slightly in the direction of kanji being straight all along. There are multiple instances of kanji seeming relieved that naoto now identifies as a woman, which to me seemed like his attraction is now socially acceptable since even though naoto still dresses and acts like a man, they say they are a woman, and so does everyone else. That means kanji can't be gay!
I find that persona tends to do this, where a character's arc will end up seemingly disregarded after their moment, be it their dungeon or the palace connected to them in p5. Kanji accepts himself and his attraction and still knows he is a man. But later on his ambiguous queer identity is played for laughs (mostly by yosuke). ann and her best friend are sexually assaulted by a teacher but her body is still played up for sexiness and laughs (ryuji looking up her skirt, ryuji looking down her shirt, the popsicle stick joke with ryuji at the beach, etc). naoto is still blatantly uncomfortable with attention to their body after their dungeon, like you mention with the pageant and doctor's office and bathhouse. Whoever said that the rest of the characters don't seem to know how to handle kanji after his dungeon is so right. It's the same thing with naoto and with ann.
as a trans guy myself, i just see the narrative on naoto after their arc so harsh for some reason. i didn't pick up this game again (and im like. really into persona and smt as a whole, ive been so for years so its weird for me to do something like that) because THIS narrative in particular makes me physically uncomfortable but i also understand how at the time you couldn't just have it all and write openly queer characters. it just pains me when the whole crew sees Naoto as their sex after it's revealed all of a sudden. I really resonate with Naoto's gender-dysphoria-ish writing because it's an everyday thing for me, so whenever the game totally shuts that down i just can't keep playing. it makes me feel pathetic.
One thing I would've brought up would've been the cross dressing pageant at the culture festival. This next to the camping trip is by far one of that worst sequences in the game. While cross dressing is more connected to drag, a subsection of queer culture, the game goes out of its way to willing mock if someone doesn't fit the exact look one would expect of gender conformation, then it's wrong and disgusting
The crowd makes awful comments. Even before we start kids often say "that's kinda wrong/disgusting." Yosuke, Kanji, and Yu(who I think looks great) gets so many awful comments thrown at them. The "imagine sitting down in the bus with them" comment is particularly vile. I am a binary trans woman and while I know this is cross dressing which doesn't apply to me, I do struggle with image issues trying to appear as feminine in public. So the game mocking characters for looking somewhere between masculine and feminine as wrong and disgusting just hurts.
One could argue kids or cruel, or the game is ok with it cause of teddie. But teddie gets a pass cause he passes, he conforms to exactly what a girl should look like by the games standards. And the game never challenges the crowds jeers, alongside having harmful homophobic text, and text that portrays any form of gender surgery as harmful and bad, this on top of that is the cherry on shit cake.
Not to mention this is the same day where naoto is forced to be uncomfortable, fatphobia, and the next day terrible hot springs scene that ends with the boys attempting to breach the women's rooms to do who knows what's and ends with a teacher wanting to fuck her students
So overall a fun 2 hours in p4 lol
I've always believed Shadow Kanji represented Kanji's interest in hobbies that are perceived as being more feminine, and that him coming off as "gay" was merely an exaggeration.
Naoto dresses like a boy because of how the Japanese Police treats Female workers.
Yosuke's definitely straight. but more so takes issue with Kanji's hobby of sewing and/or his perceived status as a delinquent.
OMG THANK YOU AAAAAAAAAAAA
Turning this into a debate into man vs woman is stupid because the point isnt just accepting her as a woman its supposed to be accepting her as just who she is as naoto, about her being her own person regardless of what her body turns into as an adult, about being able to be seen as someone who has humanity regardless of her sex. she was able to do this as a child, allowing herself to be tomboyish but as her body changed through puberty and now she is more visibly female she lost the complexity she had now only being treated as dictated by her body. This is why she probably doesnt wear revealing clothes and hides her measurements.
This was probably meant to be another ambiguous thing like with kanji, most likely being the reason for why her personas gender is ambiguous because it was never the point, so lets just be real here, Naoto being so pushed as girl seems out of place because it was probably just put in because a girl with a complex gender expression isnt good "waifu" material for cishet men, and its probably why all that stuffs in her social link and romance route.
Great essay and very thorough, really enjoyed your takes
Glad you enjoyed it! :)
If the rumors are true and if we Ever get a four remake I definitely would like them to change and or fix it as gender identity/sexuality is more present today and as someone who is Pansexual Non-Binary it would be nice ☺️.
Idk I just need them to rewrite Naoto's whole social link as it would be hella triggering for Trans people.
Fr. I struggle to process arguments about them being cis because it is too triggering sometimes. 😭
Alot of people would dislike that
Since it would differ from the original source
they dont need to rewrite naoto :v ppl jus need to actually read and understand her story!
From my point of view, as a non binary writer born female, the Naoto gender thing appears thanks to the confusion of the writers of the game, I think they wanted to represent both the trans experience (even if it wasn't that good) and the sexism within the japanese police force, and without a proper understanding of both problems and with the traditional mentality of Japan, which I imagine was terrible in 2006/8, they mixed both things as an attempt to do something deep but without real confrontation of the japanese mentality and making a half cooked story whose two main points clash. Naoto story would have worked so much better if it was just a trans story or a sexism story, just as the rest of the game. Their fear of fighting social norms and their need to please the stablished public is what made this game worse, Kanji is the only rescatable example, only because saying that men can sew is not as big as having a full on gay romance or a trans/gender non-conforming character in a game whose main public is straight men. That is to say that, for me, both interpretations of the character are valid (I personally headcanon them as gender non- conforming) because this shitty game was made in Japan the late 2000's and if even at this year gay marriage is not legal there, in that time it's even surprising they wanted to introduce so many queer stories
Clarification, I say shitty in a love kinda way, Persona 4 is one of my favorite games of all times and if the writers were more educated this game would have been amazing
i'm just here for the ride.
I think Yusuke's homphobia is more meant to be internalized homophobia since the game makes clear that hes not confident in his sexuality. Also one point that makes the trans reading less clear for Naoto is that the transformation would also age her up. The sex change imagery becomes less overt with that in mind, I feel.
I'd recommend watching Hiding in Public's videos on the matter as he has very interesting perspectives on the game as he did so much research on it. As well as providing Japanese context that may have been missed. Bis theory for why the Yusuke romance option was cut is really intresting.
90% of the gayness acquired in persona 4 is from yosuke
Honestly naoto reads to me like a trans character who was written by someone who is transphobic. Because Naoto acts like a trans man - they express a lot of chest dysphoria and discomfort with being seen as and addressed as a woman, but if the writer doesn't believe trans people are real then these experiences must be explained away and the character must accept their gender assigned at birth no matter what.
Where in the game did Naoto look uncomfortable being addressed as a woman? The closest I can think of is when she get flustered when the male characters (minus Kanji for the most part) try to smooth talk her a bit. Like when Yosuke does a few times & when Yu romances her. Is there a scene I’m forgetting about? Probably…
imo i feel like naotos arc is trying to tackle both how it feels to be trans and how to feels to be a woman in a male dominated job. i hope if persona 4 gets a remake atlus clears up everything cuz theres so many parts of their arc that seem to contradict eachother. (ill still be headcanoning naoto as trans for now tho cuz im trans and therefore every character i like is trans too lol)
I am a massive Persona 4 game and I am trans and bi and what I say Persona 4 is an absolute mess of a game, I feel that it was trying so much to be so much but failed. Naoto is a very trans coded character and yes in game its like no shes a woman but in my head canon they are genderfluid. Anyone to disregard Naoto from being trans coded is well I feel they do need to look at the trans community of Persona to see why people see that. Kanji however his character is to read anyway but I think the recent point of arguments is of people who call Kanjis character arc homophobic because hes not gay which is extremely insulting as a character does not have to come forward and say I'm gay and there can be subtext, I have always seen Kanji as pansexual and regardless of which gender Kanji dates in the future that can never be taken away from him. Yosuke however....hes a missed oppertunity theres no sugar coating it and yeah I would of loved to see Yosuke battle internalised homophobia which they were going for they just didn't and its sad, in future Persona 4 games they do keep leaning to gay Yosuke but its very strange. Another characters I noticed you did not talk about is Chie and Yukiko and this could be due to arguments not using them however those two are heavy in the queer media especially when Yukiko calls Chie her prince and the constant flirting they show through out the game, its missed that they are dateable where they could be like undateable due to relationships they have being each other but yeah
I love Persona 4 a lot but as it stands the story and game is a bit of a mess and if they do remake this I feel the team will have to completely revise the characters and add more than just leave it as it is because the state it is is well not great.
When it comes to Naoto I think it’s due to the trans community not being the most well known in Japan at the time. Resulting in characters that aren’t trans accidentally being coded that way due to Japanese writers who don’t really know the trans community. Or it could result in trans characters that feel like they were written by people with good intent but lacked understanding on how it fully worked. Like Kei Kisaragi from the manga “Black Jack”. He’s basically a trans man, but possibly to due to lack info on the subject matter from the author at the time, it comes off as him transitioning not because he wanted to but because of how he’s a AFAB that can’t give birth due to medical reasons.
@@allthedumbthingz-oc5cc Honestly I completely agree with that, it was not author intention however the community has created a space. In the canon of Persona 4 shes a female however the fandom can headcanon her anyway and I feel that is something that the community should remember as well
Thanks for pointing out chie and yukiko in particular, it was something I wanted to talk about, but since all the research I was doing was so focused on the three characters I ended up talking about they ended up slipping through the cracks!
@@szinzy You can headcanon Naoto as much as you want, I know the Transformers fandom loves to do that. Still doesn’t stop it from not being fully canon though.
@@allthedumbthingz-oc5cc Bruh I was literally saying its a headcanon that is valid and saying "transformers fandom" is giving transphobia vibes. If you read what I said its good to have Naoto headcanoned as trans as in canon Naoto shows a lot of experiences that a trans person normally goes through and so the headcanon is valid. The canon shows Naoto as cisgendered, I don't know why you had to add calling the trans community the transformers fandom
I’m a Persona fan who’s straight, I don’t care about this, I just want to play the games and have fun
you do realize you don’t have to watch the video right
good for you buddy
the question is: "why ISN'T persona 4 gay?"
Not to feed the trolls, but I think Naoto's discomfort with appearing more feminine has to do more with her shyness around sex and romance than just looking feminine. I mean pretty much every romanceable character in P4 is very shy during their rank 10 event, and some of them are even more shy than others, such as Ayane.
real
It’s super gay 🫶🏼
Persona 4/Golden is a lgbt icon and there is nothing anyone can do to change that
No Kanji and Naoto aren't lgbtq but it's ok to headcanon as such...
Yosuke though??? oh boy...
Also can't wait for the persona 5 is gay video when it's just a huge shuake video (they're gayer than any other character ever-)
Personally I think the game mostly leaves Kanji up to interpretation, given that it never fully takes either side when it comes to him. For Naoto though, I feel a lot of people ignore the cultural context of her character when analyzing her. It’s fine if people headcannon her as trans, I just don’t agree based on the text of the game, and I feel like trying to say she’s trans is ignoring the actual message the game is trying to send with her.
Yosuke’s totally a closeted bisexual though. (Half-joking)
@@egg_l0rd13agreed on naoto heavily + I say kanji is bi bc I had a crush on him in 7th grade (but that went true for akihiko and reiji-) so my bias
Couldnt have said it better @@egg_l0rd13
@@egg_l0rd13well said egg lord
Long story short: “No”
Yes it is. Saved you 27 minutes
Hi, I'm here to get mad and correct a stupid point of argument. The love confession from yosuke.
People are grossly unaware how english dubs are produced for videogames which has resulted in people thinking this must have "gotten far enough into development". No.
The way game dubbing works is they RIP the files and scripts from the game, dub them, then glue them back where they found them. They don't eyeball ever shot of the game. They don't 100% the entire game before starting the dubbing process. They blindly grab files more often than not and proceed to try and recapture the performance during the dubbing. That doesn't mean every second of the game is a blind read for everyone, but it's honestly frustrating that people argue about this under the basis of "they cut it twice, proof because they DUBBED IT" which shows they don't realize this happens often, there are several games where cut dialogue is dubbed over. It's more accurate to say we don't know if it got far at all based on how little of it was left in the Japanese code.
Idk if you'll pin this but I feel it's important fans recognize that information because I feel a good chunk of the reason why people engage in the theorizing as hard as they do because "well it was dubbed"
actually i think his argument that in the code you could see that theres leftovers of a second option that most likely would lead to a romance option kinda makes it seem more credible, like i dont know if id say it was taken "late" into development, but it must have been, comfortably, mid development
How far along do you think a concept has to get before it goes into the process of being voice acted at all? The fact that it was dubbed doesn't really tell us anything but the fact the voice lines exist in the first place and were in the files as well as the fact that the leftover romance flag is still in the game suggests that the concept was a decent ways into development
Yes Really gay Like super gay
No, we all are just gay
No it's not.... Kanji is just going through that adolescent confusion stage, lots of us went through it before really figuring out who we were, same with Naoto except she's straight, it was just a sex crisis in her case. And actually kanji's arc is resolved with realizing he just really likes Naoto, as a girl. Maybe I missed a few side characters the comments are talking about but overall the takeaway from the game is that our conflicts with our identity are what creates these mistaken concepts of who we are
did u watch the video
@@leonsatelier Kanade pfp !!! And also, yeah, people give their opinion without even seeing what the other person is talking about.
Hey guys, just because I answer the title of the video in the negative, although it's posing a question you want to answer yes to, is no reason to get all hot and bothered with me. Keep your fantasies to yourself please. It's not fair of everyone to demand that every series has to be dominated by non heterosexual relationships, like how it's demanded of yandere simulator, fire emblem, persona, love live, etc it goes totally against the intent of the creators. At the end of the day most relationships are hetero and we like a good romantic story, or to choose our waifus or whatever you will, as much as the next guy. Unless that guy's gay, in which case he has series like Undertale, Wildermyth, Life Is Strange, Stardew Valley, etc to make the choice or to see it outright. For the record by the way I can like ambiguous characters as much as the next guy. I played persona q before ever playing a mainline game and when I met the p4 team Naoto was my instant favorite, and that was the same while I played the game. Although honestly I didn't like her as much for her sexual identity crisis as I did as she was just brilliant and really helped with the puzzles, made great deductions, was the only female in P4 original who was never sexualized or shown as incompetent, etc
@@williamschnarr7961 reading comprehension is dead… the only thing we said was basically, "did you even watch the video ?"
No need to pretend people are ""forcing"" queerness on characters.
Anyway, it's no use arguing, because you and I won't change our minds, it's useless.
havent watched the video. yes
Umm persona 2
If it wasn't a ps2 era game made by a big company, probably
No
Naoto is not trans, kanji is not gay and yosuke isnt closeted because most of you played golden where hes flanderized in the new scenes, making comments about kanji in almost every new scene hes in with kanji, and kanji also suffers from this. Play the ps2 undub instead. Cut content is not canon.
No.
Not only does calling Naoto trans completely go against her character, I'd argue that's it's outright misogynistic
17:00
NO, it isnt... Neither Kanji or Naoto are... Maybe in future entries, but nothing about Persona 4 is gay (not that it would be a bad thing, it's just that making stuff up to fit a narrative or agenda is quite evil, and whoever does that needs to have a serious conversation with their shadow self rather than blaming others for how warped they are deep inside)
Why is it suddenly an agenda when people want to see a character as LGBT. Answer that without being homophobic, directly or indirectly (notice how I'm not saying either character is queer, no deflecting)
The use of the term agenda and connecting being LGBT to being warped inside is common western homophobia, do better…